I actually have respect for you Rich, due to the fact that you primarily ride two strokes (as do I), but you brought out very valid advantages of the four stroke. Some people are so stuck in their opinions, they refuse to accept anything else. I find your reviews and opinions very unbiased. Bottom line, ride what you like, have your opinions, but for crap's sake - let other people do the same!
I am the other way around. I own a 350 EXC-F which I use for enduro cross and for training purposes at the MX track. When I want to ride hard enduro, I fly to Romania and rent a 2 Stroke from Gold Class rider Rienk Tuinstra. I once brought my 4 stroke and it simply not suitable enough for hard enduro.
@@marcel7161 well...I am also from Romania and have a friend with Xr400 with slightly updates, but it goes where majority of us with 300 2strokes cant go. So I really think is about training and experience. I also love the engine brake of 4stroke, something I've been missing a lot. In trail riding I think that I would be lot faster on 4stroke (dont have a tpi so I hold the clutch quite a lot and is anoying). (Edit: we are not Gold Class )
@@slintik same here! 300xc and 250xcf. 300 is awesome the more technical the riding and the 250f is so much better and fun in the singletrack no matter how tight it is.
I agree completely. The faster the riding, the more advantageous the 4T. The slower, the better the 2T. I like the 2 stroke fun factor though and prefer it.
Perfectly explained, What youre basically saying is that yes, when it comes to the bleeding edge of hard enduro ability, the modern 2 strokes are better, this would also be reflected by the fact that all the top hard enduro athletes use 2 strokes, but with that being said, to the average enthsiast, even maybe a bit more of a hardcore enthusiast, pick whichever one you like because really they are pretty much equally capable to the average rider.
I've been 2 stroke for years until I tried a 350 4 stroke xcfw, now excf and all my buddies thinks I ride much better and faster plus it doesn't tired me out like the 2 strokes. I feel my 350 has any power you want until you open her up hang on. I'm liking the 350 pretty much. I like 2 strokes but what fits me best I'll stick to 4.
Thats why I got my 450fx yamaha from a 2017 xcw300. The ktm 300 shines in slow speed stuff, but I find im faster over all on the big 4strokes. Our events are hare scramble type stuff with some hard enduro sections. If it was all hard enduro, I would have stayed with the 2T. I find most 4T more stable and controllable when trying to keep your over all speeds faster. gearing is more important on a 4T particularly in 1st and 2nd in order to be able to tractor over technical terrain at low rpm.
Completely agree! I have a 300 2T and a 450 4T and both are great for different reasons. In loose terrain (sand, very dry dirt, leaves…) i find the 4T much easier… also in fast rides. For me the only place where 2T shine are river beds, with lots of boulders, or very steep- very slow rock climbs.
I also race harescrambles on a 2T 300 and the 4T riders definitely seem to have an edge as so many of the races are wide open fast sections vs technical woods riding.
In 2018, Graham Jarvis took 1st place at Tough One and 2nd place at Hells Gate on an on a Husqvarna FE250. So, at least one highly skilled rider competes at top levels on a 4-stroke. Occasionally.
Acknowledging the 2t weight advantage for sure, but if you are tall and strong, and willing to modify a 2021 onwards husky 501 or ktm 500, you can almost have it all...slow chug/lug up hills and high speed tracks. I honestly cant believe how light these 500s feel in tight stuff!!
Hey Rich awesome review! I've been a maintenance technician for over 40 years and there's an old saying.. the right tool for the job! The bike that works for you, it's the best bike to have.
Rich, Your comment "you're not trying hard enough" is so incredibly true, and it's true for all parts of life. At 60, I'm finally SEEING this in the numerous AVERAGE achievements of my life. When I really persisted to master things, I DID! It was exhausting but oh so rewarding! Thank you for driving this home... now, I must go practice BALANCE in the garage 😁
Saw several 500s at the first Grinding Stone hard enduro. They finished a lap and had some advantages: Tighter lines between rocks due to the smaller pipe, and the traction on sandy rock seemed better. 4t digs into the earth vs 2t spins on top (better on loose hills as it keeps forward drive). A give and take, but 4t is better in 90% of terrain… it’s that really hard 10% the enduro 2t shines.
@@morthi5777 hard enduro pros… handles high heat from stop and go better, feels lighter due to rotating mass, easier to get unstuck (but easier to get stuck since it Carrie’s less momentum). Any other discipline 4ts are more prevalent.
That's interesting, isn't it? The same thing that makes it hard to get traction on 2T - frequent power strokes, prevents the wheel from sinking in loose terrain.
I tend to dual sport a bit more than straight trail ride because over the years more and more trails around me are being closed. The 350 makes stretches of road between trails much more bearable. I think a 350 is a much better all around machine, but if all you want to do is hard enduro, the 300 is king.
I entered the Endurofest Hard Scramble on Oahu with my son a few weeks back. He rode his KTM 350 exc-f and I rode my KTM 500 exc. We both rode them to the event, raced then rode home end of the day. was quite challenging on these heavy bikes but we had a great time getting through the course. It was our first race together and was an amazing day for us, one I will never forget. From what I could tell, we were the only 2 entrants there on plated bikes. We are going to enter the next one on some of our 2 strokes and I am sure it will be loads of fun and likely we will be much faster.
@@IRCTireUSAMoto Thank you! I heard after the fact that you were there. Hope you make it back out for next event which I think is in June or July. Me and my son try to ride every weekend and we have been studying your training tips every trip out. I have been riding for 35 years now but has always been desert riding in the past, took about 10 years away from dirt and got into the Harley scene but been back at it for about a year now. first time ever in hard enduro type setting, we are having a great time doing this. Seems this is teaching much more technique than wide open desert riding. Great fun!
@@IRCTireUSAMoto If you do, keep your eye out for some vintage KDX's I just bought 4 of them since that race, we working on restoration of them and going to running some old school bikes in the future, you know, just to be different.. lol
100% agree with all your points. I'm on a 2021 WR450 now and it's epic right down to just off idle at the point of stalling. It's incredibly tractable and map-able with the power turner. For ultra clay, full lock to lock steering situations trying to get up stuff I'll say the two stroke wins. Everywhere else I'll pick the WR450. I've taken this thing everywhere from clay snot to river runs. I'm hugely impressed where it will go. When is Yamaha going to give us a WR250/300E with six-speed gearbox balance shaft in a carb. E = electric start
Completely agree, I have a well set up WR250f for faster flowy singletrack and a 300 for the nasty..they both have their place and both offer smiles for days!! There is no wrong, only fun to be had with the type of engine that gives someone the most confidence!
Brilliant and fair video. I prefer 4 strokes myself but just want to point out that one of the reasons that 2 strokes are better at staying cooler is because their pistons have a larger skirt area to dissipate heat which gives them a definite advantage in HE.
Perfect video!!! I have only ridden and make videos on my KTM XCF350 so when people ask 4 vs 2 advice on my channel I have no legitimate reference point. I'll send them this video. Much respect!! 💪😃👍
I like both, for different reasons. The 2 for the tight woods and the 4 for the fast flowy trails. The response from a modern 450 4t on a nice open trail is insane, those engines are mental. For repairs though the 2 wins hands down.
I remember you saying 'what would you like to see'? I thought it would be interesting to see how a well set up older enduro bike compares with the latest offerings. I ride a 2010 Gas Gas 300 EC , and find it difficult to fault. Perhaps the biggest difference between a 2010 bike and a 2022 would be the suspension. Thanks for the channel and advice.
I have both. 2t 300 for the slow technical stuff, 480 for everything else. Both bikes will do what the other one does for sure, but each does their designated thing exceptionally well.
Thanks a million!! I was about to write an email asking what you can do on a four stroke. I can't praise enough your training videos which I continually go back to. Seeing you used only 2T I was wondering if that was the sole option... clearly, it's not, although you make the difference very clear.
Great review! I'm in California where new 2ts were banned last year, and you can only ride newer 2ts half the year anyway. By the time I wanted to buy my bike last fall, the only one left was a 500 xcfw. Since I bought it, I installed a G2 throttle tamer and a Midwest clutch lever. Those made it way easier for me to practice slow moves. Please don't hate, but I'm going to put a Rekluse on it to prevent stalling.
I live in California and 2T's weren't banned. Actually you can ride red sticker 2T's year round now. All off road bikes starting in 2023 and newer are banned, regardless of 2T or 4T.
I was happy to watch this video . i was always a 2 stroke lover until i got my 4T. i am not a fast rider at all, but i am much faster on my 250excf than i was on my husky wr250. skill level plays a huge part as well as the kind of riding, but for an old guy like myself, even a low power 4t bike makes me faster than a fast explosive 2t. great video!!
I would be really interested to see you do a demo of skills on a smaller displacement 4 stroke bike. I’m a dual sport rider but looking to adopt some enduro style skills on my little xt225. It would be awesome to see what a similar bike can do with the proper skills behind it.
two stroke better than four stroke?! HOOPLAH! My fourstroke husq has 5000000000 hours on the original motor oil without skippin a beat!!! Solid video! Great talking points! Lots to take away from this video! Thank you for the time and energy invested to make this video
Imagine if the Honda CR 2 stroke had been still going with all the improvements today! That would say different for the old 2 stroke vs 4 stroke argument!
I must say this video ( and the comments ) helped me some. Many years ago ( 1996 ) I was a very fast local expert rider locally . Formerly in the early 80 s i raced motocross and did very well , but life changes and I had to stop. When , later I saw " scrambles" I really wanted to give it a try as I grew up riding forest . I was near broke at the time , but i found am old 1980 KDX 175 ( Needed a crank ) and a 1981 KX 125 chassis . I installed the MX suspension on the KDX and entered my first scramble ( 4 hour partner event ) . The track owner took lap times the day before and apparently i set the fasted recorded even though I was just having fun... but it was the expert class for me. opps. We got a second in that first event ( my partner was a whiner and would drop down to 3 rd when he was out , making me have to catch up in my shifts ) After I rode all the team events alone and won all of them ( all scrambles were 4 hours in length ) I loved beating the new machines on my old Frankenstein Kawi . I once rode a xr 300 ( thunper racing kit) in a national and won my class but found it more difficult in the tight stuff . Now retired and about to move to Thailand in 2 years , and I have been invited to ride scrambles by some local chaps there. Most ride KLX 140 s and have a blast with those . They said I have to ride bikes like theirs , and while it would be nice to do this on a reliable , cheap fun bike like those , part of me wants to enter and win.. The thing is , I will be 58 yrs and since i have not ridden in many years , its unknown if my fitness and skill will come back . I think a competition 4 T is out simply because of the blazing hot weather there often . So many in the comments say their comp 4 t failed due to heat . These guy's KLX 's survive because they are not highly stressed race bikes . During the rainy season the tracks are often tight and technical but also have some seriously massive long hills . Yet , that bug in the back of my brain to win is always there. After seeing this video I am thinking of a 200 cc 2 stroke with fuel injection and electric start . Importing into thailand is out of the question due to the 200 % import duty BUT there is a KTM dealership near my wife's house there . My preference would be an air cooled 2 t enduro racer but none are made anymore .( less things to fail and lighter weight ) Hmmmm. Maybe i could restore an air cooled KDX 200 and ship it. The duty on an old used bike would be more manageable . As you can see , my mind is still all over the place on this. haha But thanks all for the info.
My dad's 2021 350 xcf is my favorite bike. It can do everything well; I mean *everything*. But I bought a 2-stroke 300 because it stalls less and doesn't overheat as much in technical terrain. Good video 🤙
I agree and stand by my boy Rich on this one! As a mechanic and avid trail rider I can attest to what he says is the truth and nothing but the truth. In conclusion guys; the debate between 4 stroke and 2 stroke is over... just get both! they both have good qualities. 2022 EX 250 smoker - more technical Single-Track/Mountain Bike 2014 Honda CRF 450 - Desert/Dune Bike
I agree. It is funny how a 4T tends to have better traction if you're moving but a 2T tends to have better traction in scenarios where you will be stopping and starting again. for me though the 2T gives me more smiles per gallon. I do like them both, though!
I agree. I have won 3 trophies for hard enduro here in south africa 🇿🇦 with the legendary CRF230F. Never in my life would I find and ride any two stoke that can compare with that beast.
It’s a super underrated bike for the right weight rider. I’m looking for something very similar but I’m 200lbs. I have a xr400r. Love that bike just looking for number 2 now.
Are you joking or are you serious, I'm a new rider and had a crf230f for over a year, but once I learned how to ride a bit more I sold it, because it is too heavy and slow, but is a good bike, what kind of bike were you competing against?
Had alot in my class. Alot of 250 2 strokes. And some 300. But the 230f was an awesome awesome bike. I've sold it now because I'm moving to a higher class. But as I said. I agree totally. Best enduro bikes are 4 strokes. Have a 250x now. Awesome bike. But will always remember my 230f.
Never even thought of that. Makes so much sense. My old 2 stroke is always cold when riding with slower riders and it’ll burn a tank of gas in no time!
I have been buying and riding new bikes since the 1970’s. Sometimes old ideas die hard. My 2021 KTM 500 XCF-W weights 234 pounds dry. My 2024 Husqvarna TE 300 weighs 235. No misprint. The gap between 2T and 4T bikes has really narrowed in recent years. Even the power delivery has become similar. The 2T bikes still have a lower center of gravity and feel lighter due to the reduced reciprocating mass creating less gyro effect. They also ( importantly) are more stall resistant at low speeds. But my 500 makes more bottom end torque, has a broader powerband, and is 20 mph faster. The big 4T bike finds more traction than the 2T bikes in slippery hard enduro conditions, and the motor is good for 800 hours in normal ( non racing) service. A big advantage for me is the extended range: I can go 40 miles further on a tank of fuel. Enjoy both types of motos while you still can. They will soon be legislated out of existence and you will be stuck with your Ebike with a dead battery miles from anywhere.
I honestly prefer my 2t 300 beta great engine for enduro but has 4 stroke is for the faster longer rides that’s where a xr250r comes in handy can sit at 60 mph all day happily and does well in the forest 🌳
I have been waiting for someone to talk about this as I have been learning to do more technical riding on my 2018 WR450f, sure it's a bit heavy with a lot of power but it doesn't deter me from giving it a go as I am a Yamaha man and they don't have any road compliant 2 stroke models, at least not here in Australia!. Thank you for confirming that my effort isn't going to waste, I have already started using the flywheel loading tip from one of your other videos and it has made getting up steep inclines and obstacles a breeze!
I’ve never understood why a rider would limit themselves to a single brand. I’ve seen the dominance of many brands and dealers come and go over the decades. This mentality really limits your options and fun for no good reason.
I ride a '19 wr450. I'm better than my bros in the techy tight stuff and they all ride 250/300 2t. Like Rich was saying it's mostly the rider. I've owned 125/250/300 2t myself, I will say that the 450 takes the most energy to ride however.
@@gpaull2 I've owned multiple brands over the years and I have always preferred Yamaha, trust me when I tell you I don't care for 'options', I have plenty of fun and my WR is fit for purpose where I live.
I was a two-stroke hard head for many years I still love them don't get me wrong I got my first four stroke a 2004 rmz250 completely restored it put a Big bore kit in it oversized radiator is and a super cooler so it didn't overheat and it is my favorite bike I've ever owned I believe especially being 44 years old with a wife and two children
For me, in really tight singletrack (regardless of technical difficulty) the 2t is much easier to ride, feels much lighter, and takes a lot less energy and effort. I just switched from a 350 excf to a 300 and I am in love. I come from a MTB background and I'm pretty new to moto and I just immediately felt more at home on the 2t. I think it really comes down to this in all riding (doesn't have to be hard enduro)... 2t is light and nimble and 4t is heavy and stable. There are advantages and disadvantages but I feel much more confident in tight singletrack on the side of a super steep hill with the 2t. I'm not fighting the bike. I'll trade that for higher speed (30mph etc) stability as I ride lots of singletrack in northern Idaho.
@@IRCTireUSAMoto yeas it is! Been going there since i was 11. Changed a lot over the yrs. But it an awesome place! MegsBraap and Busted knuckle films have been there also. Maybe next time your there!✊🏻💨💨
I have a Husqvarna TE310R (last year before KTM) and I am still getting used to my Beta 300RE. The Husky is way more predictable for me, but the fuel injection, high comp 4 stroke nature and my lack of talent has me stalling it while the 2stroke Beta will tractor through and up. Unfortunately, that Husky cut its own radiator hose and I must have warped the head. Rebuilt the top end, but didn't send the top end off to get the cylinder plated and head decked, so it still is getting blow by and burning coolant. Guess I should be tearing that engine back down to have both bikes to ride instead of commenting!
Very interesting video. Personally, and completely outside the topic, I've gone electric for my enduro/trail riding. I'm not a competitor but I do ride technical trails. I find the torque from zero very good on my Surron Storm Bee. Traction is pretty good, stalls don't exist and the torque is excellent. Another issue with 2 strokes is they are obnoxiously loud. I live in the mountains of Mongolia and there are a lot of grazing animals and herders who'd probably shoot me or get very ticked off if I scared their animals or interrupted the serenity of the mountains. I can race around (not silently but far quieter than any petrol engine) without bothering anybody or go near silent by creeping along. I've no idea of electric enduros will ever compete against petrol engines. Their limitations are range and weight. Mine weighs 130kg because the battery is 30kg. When power density increases, weight can go down. Or a lighter weight battery could be utilized specific to the distance of the race or if pitstops are allowed, swapped out.
Hi rich first of all thanks for all the videos invested and simple to understand. I ride a wr250f and wanted to know if some of the techniques differ between the 4t to 2t for example because it takes less to rev the 4t. And of course I would love videos that also focus on the 4t riders Thanks again
Especially with KTM building both stroke bikes so similarly, it’s really down to the rider what they can and can’t do on a bike, I ride an RMZ 450 and my friends ride Yz250x’s. We can do all the same things just I struggle more in some places, goes both ways
You would even like the 350 4t more if it was not tuned! The way it comes out from the factory is perfect for hard enduro. The motor doesn't stall so quickly. PS I love 2T but would live with the 350 happily
I’m better on a 4t doing anything. I’m almost 50 years old raised from big bore 5002t, Honda/kx. 2t are fun but when it comes to winning races I’m faster on 4t. Also my experience is my 4t engines do last longer then all the 2t I’ve had so I don’t totally agree with this video. I will stick to my 30 year experience rather then someone else. I must admit that 4t in the 80s/90s were heavy slower machines but not today.
Sure we can, Graham Jarvis won once Romaniacs on 4 stroke. Super enduro events are on 4 stroke mostly. My only problem is I stall more often on 4 stroke then on 2 stroke:)
To be honest having seen this blokes ability in his videos he could take a 1 stroke and make it work 😂. I’m not going bouncing up tyres anytime soon for major competitions so I guess it’s pick one you fancy trying lol.
Well done article and I won't argue with you about it. I prefer 2 strokes, but someone else may prefer 4 strokes. I guess it is like boxers and whity tighty's. Of course the 2 stroke are the boxers. It is freer to work with.
I have a 2019 350 exc-f, and I believe it is the perfect bike for me, let me explain. I ride primarily desert races with some sprint enduros mixed in there, but because of the mostly high speed desert terrain the four stroke it probably better and more stable. I enjoy very technical terrain but like you said the average rider is not an expert, im working on a double blip and I could probably do it if I had more time to practice, bit needless to say I am not running nearly at the limits of this bike in most situations. I will say though that they do get hot, my fan frequently comes on even in the "high speed" trail riding in the heat of the desert. This usually happens most when trail riding in the spring and summer, and the races in my area they rarely hold in this time, if they do it is a shorter high speed race like a dual euro because it gets over 100. The only downside to the 350 exc if the power, it wouldn't be too difficult to fix this but I live in California where that is illegal, but racing desert i frequently find myself doing max acceleration and having another 15 horsepower would probably make a big difference because im racing with the 450s. My dad has the 350 xc and there is a noticeable difference in top end power, but there is also a big difference in tractorability, mine likes the lower rpms going up a hill much better, wich is why I thing the 350 exc is a excellent all around bike, for a loose hill climb the xc would probably be better than the exc just as far as pure uphill drag race style. I did try a 300 two stroke once, it was certainly different, not better or worse just different, it definitely felt lighter, but then again at the time I had my dad's old 03 450 mxc with like a 3 gallon tank on it so it was a pig. When I got my 350 I knew I was going with that engine because my dad had the 2018 xc and I raced it a few times, but what led me to the exc was being able to ride it to college and work, as well as across town more easily to hit the trails on the other side, my dad also has a 500, but I knew I didn't want that heavy of a bike. But I'm glad I went with the exc instead of the xc because the difference other than max power like gearing are very nice.
I've ridden both, from a 200 2 stroke to a 450 4 stroke. Most important thing is that a 4 stroke heats up easier. Or actually really fast. A fan is compulsory and I still blew a radiator hose from a 390 Beta. So for slow speeds the 2 stroke rules since it won't boil so easily. Otherwise it's just potatoes or tomatoes. Sure the 4 stroke weighs a bit more and has more rotating mass, but also tracts better. For high speed cross country or GNCC style racing I like a 4 stroke since the weight and the traction stabilizes things. For slow stuff a 2 stroke is better since it won't overheat so easily and is a bit more flickable.
keep oem exhaust and put a race map... red rubber grease your water hoses.... Onsumer i'm used to "try" practice slow wheelies by 40 C on my 390 rr . Sometimes yes fan switches on, but that's all except to the point of black burnt metal clutch disks ! ;) You need too to put a + 200 rpm map, water pump runs faster and it seems a paradox but yes , bike runs cooler too
Good video! I don't think there is an inherent problem with 4t platform, rather how they are currently built and designed. I think a manuf could easily build a hard enduro 4t....heck, my 2018 Montessa is unbelievable, virtually stall proof, so it's not a technical problem with 4t. I think a longer stroke, slightly heavier flywheeled, 300f to 350f with a larger fan would be amazing...but of course, trade off is broad power and hp up top. I know KTM 350s have finished Erzberg in one piece under legit riders.
Riding out to the trails is nice on a four stroke 😄 I like the thought of near-zero-mph tractability though. I flog my clutch on uphill technical terrain and feel awful about it.
I love my 450 enduro bike for technical riding here in Ohio. Man I wish I knew you were coming to my neck of the woods, I would have loved to take your class!
I bought a 450rx and it's a great bike but too much power and hard to control at low speed. Maybe a Yami wr or 450FX would be better with wide ratio. I had a YZ250 and loved it. I'm really on the fence of of getting a beta 300 x trainer. I do now realize the honda 450rx is a motocross bike with 18" wheel and kickstand, but I'm trying to get it more of a woods bike. (But would even think of taking it on hard enduro.) The near 0mph I think you are bang on!!! That's where I dislike my 450RX, I have geared down 2 teeth and will get my suspension made softer, after that I'll try a recluse
Great video. I feel like a lot of the 4 stroke guys have never ridden a modern 2 stroke, esp when they talk about torque/low end power, or fouling plugs, etc. I’ve been on 300’s for the last 8 yrs/two bikes, but am thinking of going to the 350 for the street legal and EFI aspects. I don’t ride on the street but for some trail systems a plate is really nice to have. We have all 4 of our Beta 2 strokes plated, but getting the license for them is a little sketchy.
I was the other way. Only tried a small bore 2S. Very low bottom end. Tried a 350 KTM EXCF and holy shit. The shear grunt of the thing. It was like a battle tank at pulling. I really liked it. Never tried a 300 though. I’m only new to the sport.
@@airindiana 👍 I think you’d be impressed by the low end of a 300 as well. And it goes way lower rpm than a 350 will even run at before dying. They’ll almost stop turning and somehow stay running.
I always look at someone like Pol tares on his big yamaha T7 doing hard Enduro stuff. For the majority it's the riders ability. This past desert race I got passed by a ktm 1290 adventure bike. That guy was a beast though.
I can imagine a 350 would be awesome. I have a 4T 250xcf-w and it was bad to the bone for the hard-ish enduro i ride. Its been broke down currently and will be my 1st bike ever to go to a shop (due to the complexity of the problem, ecu related). So I've been riding my old 2-stroke and rethinking my decision on buying a 4T due to reliability, unfortunately. Like anything else might just be luck of the draw.
I ride a 250excf has 13/50 sprocket put a 12 52 on its a totally different machine for hard enduro but just like you say just over heats abit feels like the clutch can respond different at varying temps
Hola Rick En mi caso estoy muy contento con mi Husky TE300. Pero en caso de cambiar a un 4T, sería algún modelo 350. Concuerdo contigo plenamente. Saludos desde Argentina 🇦🇷
The problem with modern four stokes is the power and idle, low rev stability 450 are particularly difficult in this topocs. If you install something like power commander or other piggy back help in this area.
I'm in Illinois just started riding last year on a 06 yz250f by end of year I was on a 21 crf250r this year doing the GP races I picked up a ktm250xcw what a difference but I think I like the 4 stroke better cuz of the no engine brake on the 2 stroke but il let you know at end of seasone how I really feel
when riding my kx450f with 2 stroke guys on technical single track. My 4stroke overheats easy without riding fast to cool it down. I’m nervous about 2 stork because I’m 6’4 265 lbs but seems newer 2s can handle all the power I need. Many say 450s are to big. I disagree. I’m big and been riding a 450 for 15 years. Maybe I need a 2s 350
Would it be hard/expensive to modify a 2022 KTM 250 SXF into a decent enduro bike? I'm thinking it could work ok with an 18" rear wheel and lower gearing? I will not do any hard enduro or any super fast or technical stuff. Just ride a bit for fun on the local enduro track. Perhaps it would work as is even?
I have a 250 TPI 2 stroke and a 250 4 stroke, both modern. With my mostly single track (with some big hill climbs ) the piston rings wear out faster on the 2 stroke.
I ride an old 2002 honda xr 250r that does enjoy the low end rpm and has torque for days and I also have a 1984 honda reflex tlr which is an old 4 stroke trials bike which arguably has more torque than my 2 stroke 2007 sherco 250 but they both have their pros and cons. The 4 strokes have their cams which add a lot of weight at the top of the motor and the 2 strokes in my personal experiences on older 2 strokes 60s to 2000s that if you dont hold them at revs the have a sever case of oil starvation. I am getting back into the world of modern 2 strokes and 4 strokes and love them both but I do pefer my 4 stroke honda xr over the 2 strokes
Thank you for this video. I've been debating between a Ktm 300 XC-W and a 500 EXC-F. Being street legal out the door had me leaning towards the 500 for greater versatility but had concerns about the super slow hard Enduro scenarios. This vid eases my mind. Do you think the radiator fan is enough to control temp on the 500 in hard Enduro scenarios?
@Yo Joe I just started the same journey! The snow’s still melting here in the mountains, but I’m really looking forward to seeing how this 500 does in the tight n twisties. It absolutely screams down bumpy fire roads, and just plain roads, but yeah… wondering how it’s going to do in rocky single track.
So, I actually had a choice between the 500 EXC-F and the 300 XCW TPI and, after a couple days (there’s not much time to think about a bike purchase here… they’re usually sold before they hit the floor) I chose the 500. I’ve got to ride 20 minutes or more on pavement to get to good trails, so that was a major consideration. In Colorado, 2 strokes can be street legal, and it would have cost ~$1000 to get that 300 up to code… but, buzzing down a road on a 2t …meh. I still wonder what this 500 is going to be like in technical trails… but it’s been a blast everywhere else so far (after break in of course).
I ride hard/extreme enduro on a 2007 400EXC (RFS) since i bought it. What eventually worked for me for overheating was the use of Evans waterless coolant and also trying not to over-rev the engine when slipping the clutch in the very technical stuff. Lower gearing helps for the latter (i use 14-52). Before that also used a radiator fan (with a stiffer radiator cap) but removed it as it was not as efficient as the waterless coolant, added weight and in very technical rides and hot weather it drained the battery. Needless to say you need a sticky tire for super slow hard.
Thought I would sell the 300 when I got a new 350. Now have my second 350 and still have the 300. Can’t beat the 2T for gnar. Can’t beat the 350 in faster terrain.
I love my wr450f but in the desert trails I ride the engine heat literally makes me sick it's like an oven. It dehydrates me super fast, I'm seriously thinking in switching to two strokes. Plus my bike feel heavy for the rocky terrain I ride.
Didn't Jarvis win Erzberg on a big ole Husaberg in 2013? Most of the modern 2T bikes outside the Pierre Group haven't made any significant technological changes since then, but the 4Ts have for sure.
So is two stroke going to be easier to "learn" low speed riding on? I moved from West to East and of course out West lots of open trails, desert, dual sporting etc where the 4 strokes were king, but now I am out east in NC and its more tight woods however hare scrambles still look to have some higher speed sections
I actually have respect for you Rich, due to the fact that you primarily ride two strokes (as do I), but you brought out very valid advantages of the four stroke. Some people are so stuck in their opinions, they refuse to accept anything else. I find your reviews and opinions very unbiased. Bottom line, ride what you like, have your opinions, but for crap's sake - let other people do the same!
Completely agree! Thanks for watching brotha!
I am the other way around. I own a 350 EXC-F which I use for enduro cross and for training purposes at the MX track. When I want to ride hard enduro, I fly to Romania and rent a 2 Stroke from Gold Class rider Rienk Tuinstra. I once brought my 4 stroke and it simply not suitable enough for hard enduro.
@@marcel7161 well...I am also from Romania and have a friend with Xr400 with slightly updates, but it goes where majority of us with 300 2strokes cant go. So I really think is about training and experience. I also love the engine brake of 4stroke, something I've been missing a lot. In trail riding I think that I would be lot faster on 4stroke (dont have a tpi so I hold the clutch quite a lot and is anoying). (Edit: we are not Gold Class )
I don't. He stole my brother's brother's cousin's wife and pickup truck.
@@2WheelDerness cool to hear. I ride a xr400r I love this bike. Just little heavy but I’m 6 foot 200lbs so just gotta man up lol. 🤙🏼🤙🏼
Sounds like you're saying i need 1 of each? I agree!...lol 🤘
300 2t and fc250f, best combo!
Haha! More bikes is always better!
@@slintik same here! 300xc and 250xcf. 300 is awesome the more technical the riding and the 250f is so much better and fun in the singletrack no matter how tight it is.
hahaha...
I agree 100% 300 for slow technical and 350 for fast and open ;) That’s what I’m going to do
I agree completely. The faster the riding, the more advantageous the 4T. The slower, the better the 2T. I like the 2 stroke fun factor though and prefer it.
Absolutely right
Agree
Perfectly explained, What youre basically saying is that yes, when it comes to the bleeding edge of hard enduro ability, the modern 2 strokes are better, this would also be reflected by the fact that all the top hard enduro athletes use 2 strokes, but with that being said, to the average enthsiast, even maybe a bit more of a hardcore enthusiast, pick whichever one you like because really they are pretty much equally capable to the average rider.
I've been 2 stroke for years until I tried a 350 4 stroke xcfw, now excf and all my buddies thinks I ride much better and faster plus it doesn't tired me out like the 2 strokes. I feel my 350 has any power you want until you open her up hang on. I'm liking the 350 pretty much. I like 2 strokes but what fits me best I'll stick to 4.
Great thoughts! To each their own!
Thats why I got my 450fx yamaha from a 2017 xcw300. The ktm 300 shines in slow speed stuff, but I find im faster over all on the big 4strokes. Our events are hare scramble type stuff with some hard enduro sections. If it was all hard enduro, I would have stayed with the 2T. I find most 4T more stable and controllable when trying to keep your over all speeds faster. gearing is more important on a 4T particularly in 1st and 2nd in order to be able to tractor over technical terrain at low rpm.
Completely agree! I have a 300 2T and a 450 4T and both are great for different reasons. In loose terrain (sand, very dry dirt, leaves…) i find the 4T much easier… also in fast rides. For me the only place where 2T shine are river beds, with lots of boulders, or very steep- very slow rock climbs.
I also race harescrambles on a 2T 300 and the 4T riders definitely seem to have an edge as so many of the races are wide open fast sections vs technical woods riding.
In 2018, Graham Jarvis took 1st place at Tough One and 2nd place at Hells Gate on an on a Husqvarna FE250. So, at least one highly skilled rider competes at top levels on a 4-stroke. Occasionally.
Very true!! He also won Romaniacs on a 4 stroke Sherco. And I believe it’s still possible.
He also took a bunch of 2nds on Husaberg 4-strokes until KTM bought them out and gave him a 300 to ride and that is when he started winning.
@@IRCTireUSAMoto Chris Birch took 1st in Silver class Romaniacs on a KTM 500 last year.
Acknowledging the 2t weight advantage for sure, but if you are tall and strong, and willing to modify a 2021 onwards husky 501 or ktm 500, you can almost have it all...slow chug/lug up hills and high speed tracks. I honestly cant believe how light these 500s feel in tight stuff!!
@@gophop yes that bottom end chug-ability
Hey Rich awesome review! I've been a maintenance technician for over 40 years and there's an old saying.. the right tool for the job! The bike that works for you, it's the best bike to have.
Rich,
Your comment "you're not trying hard enough" is so incredibly true, and it's true for all parts of life. At 60, I'm finally SEEING this in the numerous AVERAGE achievements of my life. When I really persisted to master things, I DID! It was exhausting but oh so rewarding! Thank you for driving this home... now, I must go practice BALANCE in the garage 😁
Definitely can apply that rule to every aspect of your life!! That’s why dirt bikes are rad!!
Saw several 500s at the first Grinding Stone hard enduro. They finished a lap and had some advantages: Tighter lines between rocks due to the smaller pipe, and the traction on sandy rock seemed better. 4t digs into the earth vs 2t spins on top (better on loose hills as it keeps forward drive). A give and take, but 4t is better in 90% of terrain… it’s that really hard 10% the enduro 2t shines.
Why all pros ride 2 stroke then?
@@morthi5777 hard enduro pros… handles high heat from stop and go better, feels lighter due to rotating mass, easier to get unstuck (but easier to get stuck since it Carrie’s less momentum). Any other discipline 4ts are more prevalent.
@@b2ridez279 okay, thx for the answer bro
Also they Ride what the factory demands
That's interesting, isn't it? The same thing that makes it hard to get traction on 2T - frequent power strokes, prevents the wheel from sinking in loose terrain.
I tend to dual sport a bit more than straight trail ride because over the years more and more trails around me are being closed. The 350 makes stretches of road between trails much more bearable. I think a 350 is a much better all around machine, but if all you want to do is hard enduro, the 300 is king.
I hear ya. Same thing here in Northern Michigan
I entered the Endurofest Hard Scramble on Oahu with my son a few weeks back. He rode his KTM 350 exc-f and I rode my KTM 500 exc. We both rode them to the event, raced then rode home end of the day. was quite challenging on these heavy bikes but we had a great time getting through the course. It was our first race together and was an amazing day for us, one I will never forget. From what I could tell, we were the only 2 entrants there on plated bikes. We are going to enter the next one on some of our 2 strokes and I am sure it will be loads of fun and likely we will be much faster.
Nice job man!!
@@IRCTireUSAMoto Thank you! I heard after the fact that you were there. Hope you make it back out for next event which I think is in June or July. Me and my son try to ride every weekend and we have been studying your training tips every trip out. I have been riding for 35 years now but has always been desert riding in the past, took about 10 years away from dirt and got into the Harley scene but been back at it for about a year now. first time ever in hard enduro type setting, we are having a great time doing this. Seems this is teaching much more technique than wide open desert riding. Great fun!
I’d love to get back out there!!
@@IRCTireUSAMoto If you do, keep your eye out for some vintage KDX's I just bought 4 of them since that race, we working on restoration of them and going to running some old school bikes in the future, you know, just to be different.. lol
100% agree with all your points. I'm on a 2021 WR450 now and it's epic right down to just off idle at the point of stalling. It's incredibly tractable and map-able with the power turner. For ultra clay, full lock to lock steering situations trying to get up stuff I'll say the two stroke wins. Everywhere else I'll pick the WR450. I've taken this thing everywhere from clay snot to river runs. I'm hugely impressed where it will go. When is Yamaha going to give us a WR250/300E with six-speed gearbox balance shaft in a carb. E = electric start
Those things are beasts. Too much for an old man
Completely agree, I have a well set up WR250f for faster flowy singletrack and a 300 for the nasty..they both have their place and both offer smiles for days!! There is no wrong, only fun to be had with the type of engine that gives someone the most confidence!
Thanks Rich, I prefer the simplicity and luggabilty of a 300 2t, I never stop enjoying watching your double blips. 🤙
All about simplicity!!
@@IRCTireUSAMoto true that...so glad 2t came back from the dead. Nothing beats the smell of 2 smoke in the morning 🤙
Brilliant and fair video. I prefer 4 strokes myself but just want to point out that one of the reasons that 2 strokes are better at staying cooler is because their pistons have a larger skirt area to dissipate heat which gives them a definite advantage in HE.
And the 2 strokes have water cooled cylinder heads.
I ride both 2t and 4t 250-500+cc in brutal terrain. It's all in clutch control and tire contact. Both engine types work everywhere.
So no 4t overheating issues?
@@double-oseven5725 Evans waterless coolant.
@@double-oseven5725 Evans waterless coolant. Never boils over.
Perfect video!!! I have only ridden and make videos on my KTM XCF350 so when people ask 4 vs 2 advice on my channel I have no legitimate reference point. I'll send them this video.
Much respect!! 💪😃👍
Thanks so much for watching! I appreciate the support!
I like both, for different reasons. The 2 for the tight woods and the 4 for the fast flowy trails. The response from a modern 450 4t on a nice open trail is insane, those engines are mental.
For repairs though the 2 wins hands down.
Agreed. Another great video. I believe it’s best to have both.
I remember you saying 'what would you like to see'?
I thought it would be interesting to see how a well set up older enduro bike compares with the latest offerings. I ride a 2010 Gas Gas 300 EC , and find it difficult to fault. Perhaps the biggest difference between a 2010 bike and a 2022 would be the suspension.
Thanks for the channel and advice.
I have both. 2t 300 for the slow technical stuff, 480 for everything else. Both bikes will do what the other one does for sure, but each does their designated thing exceptionally well.
Thanks a million!! I was about to write an email asking what you can do on a four stroke. I can't praise enough your training videos which I continually go back to. Seeing you used only 2T I was wondering if that was the sole option... clearly, it's not, although you make the difference very clear.
Friend used both and used to say you can ride both same, but it s called 4s because you are X2 tired at end of day, compared to a 2s.... ;)
Great review! I'm in California where new 2ts were banned last year, and you can only ride newer 2ts half the year anyway. By the time I wanted to buy my bike last fall, the only one left was a 500 xcfw. Since I bought it, I installed a G2 throttle tamer and a Midwest clutch lever. Those made it way easier for me to practice slow moves. Please don't hate, but I'm going to put a Rekluse on it to prevent stalling.
Rekluse are great on four stroke, in my opinion useless on two stroke
I live in California and 2T's weren't banned. Actually you can ride red sticker 2T's year round now. All off road bikes starting in 2023 and newer are banned, regardless of 2T or 4T.
best explanation and description I have heard on the internet and spot on 100%.
I was happy to watch this video . i was always a 2 stroke lover until i got my 4T. i am not a fast rider at all, but i am much faster on my 250excf than i was on my husky wr250. skill level plays a huge part as well as the kind of riding, but for an old guy like myself, even a low power 4t bike makes me faster than a fast explosive 2t. great video!!
Love my CRF250X. I think you can use any bike in any type of riding because it’s all about the rider, do what’s best for you.
I would be really interested to see you do a demo of skills on a smaller displacement 4 stroke bike. I’m a dual sport rider but looking to adopt some enduro style skills on my little xt225. It would be awesome to see what a similar bike can do with the proper skills behind it.
two stroke better than four stroke?! HOOPLAH! My fourstroke husq has 5000000000 hours on the original motor oil without skippin a beat!!!
Solid video! Great talking points! Lots to take away from this video! Thank you for the time and energy invested to make this video
Haha!! Thanks for watching!
Imagine if the Honda CR 2 stroke had been still going with all the improvements today! That would say different for the old 2 stroke vs 4 stroke argument!
Rieju engines are CR250 derived.
I must say this video ( and the comments ) helped me some.
Many years ago ( 1996 ) I was a very fast local expert rider locally . Formerly in the early 80 s i raced motocross and did very well , but life changes and I had to stop.
When , later I saw " scrambles" I really wanted to give it a try as I grew up riding forest . I was near broke at the time , but i found am old 1980 KDX 175 ( Needed a crank ) and a 1981 KX 125 chassis . I installed the MX suspension on the KDX and entered my first scramble ( 4 hour partner event ) . The track owner took lap times the day before and apparently i set the fasted recorded even though I was just having fun... but it was the expert class for me. opps.
We got a second in that first event ( my partner was a whiner and would drop down to 3 rd when he was out , making me have to catch up in my shifts ) After I rode all the team events alone and won all of them ( all scrambles were 4 hours in length ) I loved beating the new machines on my old Frankenstein Kawi .
I once rode a xr 300 ( thunper racing kit) in a national and won my class but found it more difficult in the tight stuff .
Now retired and about to move to Thailand in 2 years , and I have been invited to ride scrambles by some local chaps there.
Most ride KLX 140 s and have a blast with those . They said I have to ride bikes like theirs , and while it would be nice to do this on a reliable , cheap fun bike like those , part of me wants to enter and win..
The thing is , I will be 58 yrs and since i have not ridden in many years , its unknown if my fitness and skill will come back . I think a competition 4 T is out simply because of the blazing hot weather there often . So many in the comments say their comp 4 t failed due to heat . These guy's KLX 's survive because they are not highly stressed race bikes .
During the rainy season the tracks are often tight and technical but also have some seriously massive long hills .
Yet , that bug in the back of my brain to win is always there. After seeing this video I am thinking of a 200 cc 2 stroke with fuel injection and electric start . Importing into thailand is out of the question due to the 200 % import duty BUT there is a KTM dealership near my wife's house there . My preference would be an air cooled 2 t enduro racer but none are made anymore .( less things to fail and lighter weight )
Hmmmm. Maybe i could restore an air cooled KDX 200 and ship it. The duty on an old used bike would be more manageable .
As you can see , my mind is still all over the place on this. haha
But thanks all for the info.
My dad's 2021 350 xcf is my favorite bike. It can do everything well; I mean *everything*. But I bought a 2-stroke 300 because it stalls less and doesn't overheat as much in technical terrain.
Good video 🤙
Exactly!!
I agree and stand by my boy Rich on this one! As a mechanic and avid trail rider I can attest to what he says is the truth and nothing but the truth. In conclusion guys; the debate between 4 stroke and 2 stroke is over... just get both! they both have good qualities.
2022 EX 250 smoker - more technical Single-Track/Mountain Bike
2014 Honda CRF 450 - Desert/Dune Bike
I agree. It is funny how a 4T tends to have better traction if you're moving but a 2T tends to have better traction in scenarios where you will be stopping and starting again.
for me though the 2T gives me more smiles per gallon. I do like them both, though!
Exactly man! That’s why they are a bit better in hard enduro. Lots of stopping!
I agree. I have won 3 trophies for hard enduro here in south africa 🇿🇦 with the legendary CRF230F. Never in my life would I find and ride any two stoke that can compare with that beast.
It’s a super underrated bike for the right weight rider. I’m looking for something very similar but I’m 200lbs. I have a xr400r. Love that bike just looking for number 2 now.
Are you joking or are you serious, I'm a new rider and had a crf230f for over a year, but once I learned how to ride a bit more I sold it, because it is too heavy and slow, but is a good bike, what kind of bike were you competing against?
Had alot in my class. Alot of 250 2 strokes. And some 300. But the 230f was an awesome awesome bike. I've sold it now because I'm moving to a higher class. But as I said. I agree totally. Best enduro bikes are 4 strokes. Have a 250x now. Awesome bike. But will always remember my 230f.
If you look at fuel consumption the reason 2 stroke runs cooler is because it is basically fuel cooled.
Never even thought of that. Makes so much sense. My old 2 stroke is always cold when riding with slower riders and it’ll burn a tank of gas in no time!
They have lower compression, as well.
I have been buying and riding new bikes since the 1970’s. Sometimes old ideas die hard. My 2021 KTM 500 XCF-W weights 234 pounds dry. My 2024 Husqvarna TE 300 weighs 235. No misprint. The gap between 2T and 4T bikes has really narrowed in recent years. Even the power delivery has become similar. The 2T bikes still have a lower center of gravity and feel lighter due to the reduced reciprocating mass creating less gyro effect. They also ( importantly) are more stall resistant at low speeds. But my 500 makes more bottom end torque, has a broader powerband, and is 20 mph faster. The big 4T bike finds more traction than the 2T bikes in slippery hard enduro conditions, and the motor is good for 800 hours in normal ( non racing) service. A big advantage for me is the extended range: I can go 40 miles further on a tank of fuel. Enjoy both types of motos
while you still can. They will soon be legislated out of existence and you will be stuck with your Ebike with a dead battery miles from anywhere.
Great video, thanks for the insight. I'm a 4 stroke guy, getting 2 stroke curious.
Well said, I'm at the cross roads right now. Currently on a 2, tossing up a 4. Thanks
I honestly prefer my 2t 300 beta great engine for enduro but has 4 stroke is for the faster longer rides that’s where a xr250r comes in handy can sit at 60 mph all day happily and does well in the forest 🌳
Just buy one of each. Four stroke for the faster stuff and a two stroke for the more technical stuff.
That’s pretty much the conclusion….. they’ll hang you for it though… 😂
I have been waiting for someone to talk about this as I have been learning to do more technical riding on my 2018 WR450f, sure it's a bit heavy with a lot of power but it doesn't deter me from giving it a go as I am a Yamaha man and they don't have any road compliant 2 stroke models, at least not here in Australia!. Thank you for confirming that my effort isn't going to waste, I have already started using the flywheel loading tip from one of your other videos and it has made getting up steep inclines and obstacles a breeze!
I’ve never understood why a rider would limit themselves to a single brand. I’ve seen the dominance of many brands and dealers come and go over the decades. This mentality really limits your options and fun for no good reason.
I ride a '19 wr450. I'm better than my bros in the techy tight stuff and they all ride 250/300 2t. Like Rich was saying it's mostly the rider. I've owned 125/250/300 2t myself, I will say that the 450 takes the most energy to ride however.
@@gpaull2 I've owned multiple brands over the years and I have always preferred Yamaha, trust me when I tell you I don't care for 'options', I have plenty of fun and my WR is fit for purpose where I live.
0:39 got the answer I came for. Thanks for keeping it short and sweet 😂
awesome 😎
Hahaha!! I know you turned it off.. 😂
@@IRCTireUSAMoto you validated my opinion and I need to hear no more haha
I was a two-stroke hard head for many years I still love them don't get me wrong I got my first four stroke a 2004 rmz250 completely restored it put a Big bore kit in it oversized radiator is and a super cooler so it didn't overheat and it is my favorite bike I've ever owned I believe especially being 44 years old with a wife and two children
For me, in really tight singletrack (regardless of technical difficulty) the 2t is much easier to ride, feels much lighter, and takes a lot less energy and effort. I just switched from a 350 excf to a 300 and I am in love. I come from a MTB background and I'm pretty new to moto and I just immediately felt more at home on the 2t. I think it really comes down to this in all riding (doesn't have to be hard enduro)... 2t is light and nimble and 4t is heavy and stable. There are advantages and disadvantages but I feel much more confident in tight singletrack on the side of a super steep hill with the 2t. I'm not fighting the bike. I'll trade that for higher speed (30mph etc) stability as I ride lots of singletrack in northern Idaho.
The beginning hill you were on was Scooby at Wellsville. Man I didn’t know you were coming to my stomping grounds!
Great riding out there!
@@IRCTireUSAMoto yeas it is! Been going there since i was 11. Changed a lot over the yrs. But it an awesome place! MegsBraap and Busted knuckle films have been there also. Maybe next time your there!✊🏻💨💨
As always, another awesome content Rich. Thank you man.
Thanks so much for watching!!! 🙌🙌
I have a Husqvarna TE310R (last year before KTM) and I am still getting used to my Beta 300RE. The Husky is way more predictable for me, but the fuel injection, high comp 4 stroke nature and my lack of talent has me stalling it while the 2stroke Beta will tractor through and up.
Unfortunately, that Husky cut its own radiator hose and I must have warped the head. Rebuilt the top end, but didn't send the top end off to get the cylinder plated and head decked, so it still is getting blow by and burning coolant.
Guess I should be tearing that engine back down to have both bikes to ride instead of commenting!
Very interesting video. Personally, and completely outside the topic, I've gone electric for my enduro/trail riding. I'm not a competitor but I do ride technical trails. I find the torque from zero very good on my Surron Storm Bee. Traction is pretty good, stalls don't exist and the torque is excellent. Another issue with 2 strokes is they are obnoxiously loud. I live in the mountains of Mongolia and there are a lot of grazing animals and herders who'd probably shoot me or get very ticked off if I scared their animals or interrupted the serenity of the mountains. I can race around (not silently but far quieter than any petrol engine) without bothering anybody or go near silent by creeping along.
I've no idea of electric enduros will ever compete against petrol engines. Their limitations are range and weight. Mine weighs 130kg because the battery is 30kg. When power density increases, weight can go down. Or a lighter weight battery could be utilized specific to the distance of the race or if pitstops are allowed, swapped out.
100% correct sir!Switched from husky fe350 to te250! 350 defo best universal...
Interesting!
Who hates to hear you talk?! Rich, you’re awesome. We love your vids!
Hi rich first of all thanks for all the videos invested and simple to understand. I ride a wr250f and wanted to know if some of the techniques differ between the 4t to 2t for example because it takes less to rev the 4t. And of course I would love videos that also focus on the 4t riders Thanks again
Especially with KTM building both stroke bikes so similarly, it’s really down to the rider what they can and can’t do on a bike, I ride an RMZ 450 and my friends ride Yz250x’s. We can do all the same things just I struggle more in some places, goes both ways
Love watching you ride. Inspiring!
You would even like the 350 4t more if it was not tuned! The way it comes out from the factory is perfect for hard enduro. The motor doesn't stall so quickly. PS I love 2T but would live with the 350 happily
I’m better on a 4t doing anything. I’m almost 50 years old raised from big bore 5002t, Honda/kx. 2t are fun but when it comes to winning races I’m faster on 4t. Also my experience is my 4t engines do last longer then all the 2t I’ve had so I don’t totally agree with this video. I will stick to my 30 year experience rather then someone else. I must admit that 4t in the 80s/90s were heavy slower machines but not today.
In the earlier enduro cross days. Many tried to adapt the 250f instead of the 300 two stroke. Outdoor hard enduro. Hard to beat a two stroke.
You were in Wellsville ? 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😢 That’s right down the road from me . Please come back this summer. I’ll definitely sign up.
Cody Web does ride a Sherco 300 sef in endurocross.
Sure we can, Graham Jarvis won once Romaniacs on 4 stroke. Super enduro events are on 4 stroke mostly. My only problem is I stall more often on 4 stroke then on 2 stroke:)
There you go! 🙌
To be honest having seen this blokes ability in his videos he could take a 1 stroke and make it work 😂. I’m not going bouncing up tyres anytime soon for major competitions so I guess it’s pick one you fancy trying lol.
Well done article and I won't argue with you about it. I prefer 2 strokes, but someone else may prefer 4 strokes. I guess it is like boxers and whity tighty's. Of course the 2 stroke are the boxers. It is freer to work with.
I have a 2019 350 exc-f, and I believe it is the perfect bike for me, let me explain.
I ride primarily desert races with some sprint enduros mixed in there, but because of the mostly high speed desert terrain the four stroke it probably better and more stable.
I enjoy very technical terrain but like you said the average rider is not an expert, im working on a double blip and I could probably do it if I had more time to practice, bit needless to say I am not running nearly at the limits of this bike in most situations.
I will say though that they do get hot, my fan frequently comes on even in the "high speed" trail riding in the heat of the desert. This usually happens most when trail riding in the spring and summer, and the races in my area they rarely hold in this time, if they do it is a shorter high speed race like a dual euro because it gets over 100.
The only downside to the 350 exc if the power, it wouldn't be too difficult to fix this but I live in California where that is illegal, but racing desert i frequently find myself doing max acceleration and having another 15 horsepower would probably make a big difference because im racing with the 450s. My dad has the 350 xc and there is a noticeable difference in top end power, but there is also a big difference in tractorability, mine likes the lower rpms going up a hill much better, wich is why I thing the 350 exc is a excellent all around bike, for a loose hill climb the xc would probably be better than the exc just as far as pure uphill drag race style.
I did try a 300 two stroke once, it was certainly different, not better or worse just different, it definitely felt lighter, but then again at the time I had my dad's old 03 450 mxc with like a 3 gallon tank on it so it was a pig.
When I got my 350 I knew I was going with that engine because my dad had the 2018 xc and I raced it a few times, but what led me to the exc was being able to ride it to college and work, as well as across town more easily to hit the trails on the other side, my dad also has a 500, but I knew I didn't want that heavy of a bike. But I'm glad I went with the exc instead of the xc because the difference other than max power like gearing are very nice.
Factoring in maintenance demands puts a big checkmark in the 2T's column.
I've ridden both, from a 200 2 stroke to a 450 4 stroke. Most important thing is that a 4 stroke heats up easier. Or actually really fast. A fan is compulsory and I still blew a radiator hose from a 390 Beta. So for slow speeds the 2 stroke rules since it won't boil so easily. Otherwise it's just potatoes or tomatoes. Sure the 4 stroke weighs a bit more and has more rotating mass, but also tracts better. For high speed cross country or GNCC style racing I like a 4 stroke since the weight and the traction stabilizes things. For slow stuff a 2 stroke is better since it won't overheat so easily and is a bit more flickable.
keep oem exhaust and put a race map... red rubber grease your water hoses.... Onsumer i'm used to "try" practice slow wheelies by 40 C on my 390 rr . Sometimes yes fan switches on, but that's all except to the point of black burnt metal clutch disks ! ;) You need too to put a + 200 rpm map, water pump runs faster and it seems a paradox but yes , bike runs cooler too
I can’t stop bing watching your channel!
Nice vid.I think you are right as the bikes 2 and 4 stroke are way more cabable than 95 percent of riders.just preference really.
Great video, love the approach, here we can understand the difference
Thanks for watching!
Good video! I don't think there is an inherent problem with 4t platform, rather how they are currently built and designed. I think a manuf could easily build a hard enduro 4t....heck, my 2018 Montessa is unbelievable, virtually stall proof, so it's not a technical problem with 4t. I think a longer stroke, slightly heavier flywheeled, 300f to 350f with a larger fan would be amazing...but of course, trade off is broad power and hp up top.
I know KTM 350s have finished Erzberg in one piece under legit riders.
You are talkin about the Beta 390...suggest u test ride one brother
@double-oseven5725 I've ridden one and they are descent but it's no XR400
@@motominded5275 ha, yes, the long stroke days. Raced a TT350 years ago...shame the tractors have gone
Riding out to the trails is nice on a four stroke 😄
I like the thought of near-zero-mph tractability though. I flog my clutch on uphill technical terrain and feel awful about it.
Thanks, Rich. Another great, informative video.
Thanks for watching!!
I love my 450 enduro bike for technical riding here in Ohio. Man I wish I knew you were coming to my neck of the woods, I would have loved to take your class!
I’ll be there again I’m sure!!
I bought a 450rx and it's a great bike but too much power and hard to control at low speed. Maybe a Yami wr or 450FX would be better with wide ratio. I had a YZ250 and loved it. I'm really on the fence of of getting a beta 300 x trainer. I do now realize the honda 450rx is a motocross bike with 18" wheel and kickstand, but I'm trying to get it more of a woods bike. (But would even think of taking it on hard enduro.)
The near 0mph I think you are bang on!!! That's where I dislike my 450RX, I have geared down 2 teeth and will get my suspension made softer, after that I'll try a recluse
Gave up my 500 for a 300 and very happy even though I really loved my 500. Not as much bragging rights, but I feel better at the end of the rides.
Great video. I feel like a lot of the 4 stroke guys have never ridden a modern 2 stroke, esp when they talk about torque/low end power, or fouling plugs, etc. I’ve been on 300’s for the last 8 yrs/two bikes, but am thinking of going to the 350 for the street legal and EFI aspects. I don’t ride on the street but for some trail systems a plate is really nice to have. We have all 4 of our Beta 2 strokes plated, but getting the license for them is a little sketchy.
I was the other way. Only tried a small bore 2S. Very low bottom end. Tried a 350 KTM EXCF and holy shit. The shear grunt of the thing. It was like a battle tank at pulling. I really liked it. Never tried a 300 though. I’m only new to the sport.
@@airindiana 👍 I think you’d be impressed by the low end of a 300 as well. And it goes way lower rpm than a 350 will even run at before dying. They’ll almost stop turning and somehow stay running.
I always look at someone like Pol tares on his big yamaha T7 doing hard Enduro stuff. For the majority it's the riders ability. This past desert race I got passed by a ktm 1290 adventure bike. That guy was a beast though.
That’s a great point!!!
Soon we will be talking about the ability of an electric dirt bike in hard enduro.
Very true..
no hate here, love your videos and detailed instruction, thanks keep it up
Really great analysis by the guy who doesn't love to talk! Boils down to seat time, baby!
I ride a 4t EXC-f and take it everywhere! No issues
Nice!
Remember when Letti Sr. won Romaniacs on a 4stroke BMW? Good point on the skill of the top riders.
Ha ha! The big 450!!
I can imagine a 350 would be awesome. I have a 4T 250xcf-w and it was bad to the bone for the hard-ish enduro i ride. Its been broke down currently and will be my 1st bike ever to go to a shop (due to the complexity of the problem, ecu related). So I've been riding my old 2-stroke and rethinking my decision on buying a 4T due to reliability, unfortunately. Like anything else might just be luck of the draw.
Thanks for the video. I agree completely.
Thanks for watching!!
I ride a 250excf has 13/50 sprocket put a 12 52 on its a totally different machine for hard enduro but just like you say just over heats abit feels like the clutch can respond different at varying temps
Hola Rick
En mi caso estoy muy contento con mi Husky TE300.
Pero en caso de cambiar a un 4T, sería algún modelo 350.
Concuerdo contigo plenamente.
Saludos desde Argentina 🇦🇷
You are exactly right it’s not the bike it’s your skill sure the bike helps but either will work just make sure to have fun lol
The problem with modern four stokes is the power and idle, low rev stability 450 are particularly difficult in this topocs. If you install something like power commander or other piggy back help in this area.
Lower compression 250F's REALLY stall hard, you have to try to. If u turn the idle up a bit they will hill climb in second gear without throttle.
I'm in Illinois just started riding last year on a 06 yz250f by end of year I was on a 21 crf250r this year doing the GP races I picked up a ktm250xcw what a difference but I think I like the 4 stroke better cuz of the no engine brake on the 2 stroke but il let you know at end of seasone how I really feel
when riding my kx450f with 2 stroke guys on technical single track. My 4stroke overheats easy without riding fast to cool it down. I’m nervous about 2 stork because I’m 6’4 265 lbs but seems newer 2s can handle all the power I need. Many say 450s are to big. I disagree. I’m big and been riding a 450 for 15 years. Maybe I need a 2s 350
Would it be hard/expensive to modify a 2022 KTM 250 SXF into a decent enduro bike? I'm thinking it could work ok with an 18" rear wheel and lower gearing? I will not do any hard enduro or any super fast or technical stuff. Just ride a bit for fun on the local enduro track. Perhaps it would work as is even?
I have a 250 TPI 2 stroke and a 250 4 stroke, both modern. With my mostly single track (with some big hill climbs ) the piston rings wear out faster on the 2 stroke.
Interesting!!
That's pretty much what I've seen. 4 stroke costs more to rebuild but it lasts twice as long.
The ports in the 2 stroke cylinder gives the piston rings a tough time
Yep. Mine failed and destroyed the cylinder.
I ride an old 2002 honda xr 250r that does enjoy the low end rpm and has torque for days and I also have a 1984 honda reflex tlr which is an old 4 stroke trials bike which arguably has more torque than my 2 stroke 2007 sherco 250 but they both have their pros and cons. The 4 strokes have their cams which add a lot of weight at the top of the motor and the 2 strokes in my personal experiences on older 2 strokes 60s to 2000s that if you dont hold them at revs the have a sever case of oil starvation. I am getting back into the world of modern 2 strokes and 4 strokes and love them both but I do pefer my 4 stroke honda xr over the 2 strokes
what do you think about clutch weight 300 grams, for 350 excf? less stall, more traction and more low end power?
Thank you for this video. I've been debating between a Ktm 300 XC-W and a 500 EXC-F. Being street legal out the door had me leaning towards the 500 for greater versatility but had concerns about the super slow hard Enduro scenarios. This vid eases my mind. Do you think the radiator fan is enough to control temp on the 500 in hard Enduro scenarios?
Maybe two fans. 😂
@Yo Joe I just started the same journey! The snow’s still melting here in the mountains, but I’m really looking forward to seeing how this 500 does in the tight n twisties. It absolutely screams down bumpy fire roads, and just plain roads, but yeah… wondering how it’s going to do in rocky single track.
So, I actually had a choice between the 500 EXC-F and the 300 XCW TPI and, after a couple days (there’s not much time to think about a bike purchase here… they’re usually sold before they hit the floor) I chose the 500. I’ve got to ride 20 minutes or more on pavement to get to good trails, so that was a major consideration. In Colorado, 2 strokes can be street legal, and it would have cost ~$1000 to get that 300 up to code… but, buzzing down a road on a 2t …meh. I still wonder what this 500 is going to be like in technical trails… but it’s been a blast everywhere else so far (after break in of course).
@Yo Joe Ahhh Thanks for the heads-up. I'll have to start practicing some front-squats!
I ride hard/extreme enduro on a 2007 400EXC (RFS) since i bought it. What eventually worked for me for overheating was the use of Evans waterless coolant and also trying not to over-rev the engine when slipping the clutch in the very technical stuff. Lower gearing helps for the latter (i use 14-52). Before that also used a radiator fan (with a stiffer radiator cap) but removed it as it was not as efficient as the waterless coolant, added weight and in very technical rides and hot weather it drained the battery. Needless to say you need a sticky tire for super slow hard.
Thought I would sell the 300 when I got a new 350. Now have my second 350 and still have the 300. Can’t beat the 2T for gnar. Can’t beat the 350 in faster terrain.
I love my wr450f but in the desert trails I ride the engine heat literally makes me sick it's like an oven. It dehydrates me super fast, I'm seriously thinking in switching to two strokes. Plus my bike feel heavy for the rocky terrain I ride.
Well Four Stroke might be Equally Capable, even i ride a 4stroke n you motivate me alot ❤️
Thanks for watching!
Didn't Jarvis win Erzberg on a big ole Husaberg in 2013? Most of the modern 2T bikes outside the Pierre Group haven't made any significant technological changes since then, but the 4Ts have for sure.
So is two stroke going to be easier to "learn" low speed riding on? I moved from West to East and of course out West lots of open trails, desert, dual sporting etc where the 4 strokes were king, but now I am out east in NC and its more tight woods however hare scrambles still look to have some higher speed sections