0:00 Teaser / Intro 0:35 Voting For Joe Biden 37:15 Doomerism 1:16:05 Vaush Is Hopeful 1:31:39 A Lenin Story 1:40:22 This Is Uncomplicated 2:05:08 It Gets HEATED 2:27:53 Post-Debate Thoughts
Seeing the "it gets HEATED" part when I've just got out of the SERIOUSLY passionate and blood rising spat and speech right before the "Doomerism" arc ends (even got used as the hook line for the video. I'm just-- HUh?? THAT wasn't the heated part yet??? Great work btw, seriously cant understand how you can just click words together to make your points so understandable and inspiring at the same time, I thought you would need some fancy words and analogies, but you actually talk like a human being. I guess that just comes with if you actually care and understand what you're fighting for
Paul's downplaying of the difference between democrats and republicans was by far the most difficult thing to listen to in this debate. It was so painfully obvious how much more he cares about his own image of superiority and apathy than actual changes in the living conditions of average working class Americans.
If anyone who says the left and the right are basically the same, they don't deserve to be heard out. There is no exception. Terrible outlook to have. I detest it lol
He's a middle-class to upper-middle-class White guy who lives in a relatively 1st World nation.....so of course he and those like him so easily take this "I'm a very deep thinker who is above it all" because when shit goes left he isn't going to pay the price for such pudding brained intransience like everyone else who isn't White most definitely will. It's the same dumb-ass take that helped pave the way for Trump. It's all fun and games when you aren't the one who has to directly deal with the fall out.
@@rekkwaffle7668bbbbbut they're both capitalist imperialist parties, if it's not my perfect militant leftist vanguard how could I support it? Don't you know liberals are cryptofascists???
It’s crazy to hear someone be like we should come up with something else and then somehow magically everyone will adopt it even though we don’t vote. This is so dumb.
The wild thing to me is that he can't seem to grasp that in order for people to ditch the CURRENT system, you have to come up with a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE. What he's advocating for essentially, is cussing out your shitty boss and rage quitting before you've even bothered to check for any job listings, or start writing a resume. It's unstable behavior, and it betrays an inability to think on a longer time-scale. Unfortunately, this is one area that the fascists have been beating the left at for generations (at least, in the US). The religious right started working towards overturning Roe v. Wade on THE VERY SAME DAY that case was first decided, and they worked quietly and diligently for the next forty years to infiltrate and subvert the courts. They are thinking long term. Project 2025 is a perfect example; they've been iterating on that document since 1978. We need to stop being so short-sighted if we're gonna make things better in the long run.
“Biden wasn’t great on X” Yes and if trump was president he’d be worse. Any disagreement here is accelerationist. I have respect for you valuing building a bridge with these guys.
OF COURSE IT IS HOLY FUCK. AT WHAT POINT WILL YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ACCELERATIONISM IS NECCECARY. WILL THEY ACTUALLY BE ROUNDING PEOPLE UP AND SENDING THEM TO CAMPS BEFORE YOU ADMIT THAT WE HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING INSTEAD OF JUST WAITING AND HOPING IT GETS BETTER!!?
@@donovanmcnitt8077 Yes. And you'll see a return to chattel slavery before people admit that something needs to be done. You'll see witch burnings before people admit that something needs to be done. And you'll see human sacrifices to the christian god to stave off the climate apocalypse before you see people say that something needs to be done. Accelerationism is a flawed ideology that attempts to predict an outcome that will never happen, and proposed that by making life the worst possible version it is, that people will be forced to stop it. What you accelerationists don't get, is that humanity can sink to the darkest depths possible, and still not rise to the occasion. It's better to take a flawed foundation and try to fix it up, than it is to destroy the foundation and attempt to build something from nothing, you absolute dolt.
@@donovanmcnitt8077 It isn't necessary, just bad. Voting for fascists doesn't cause an equal and opposite pushback that leads to more progressivism. It'll just get you the fascists you ordered. If we were in the camps, while we're trying to get more food you'd be the one saying they should send the trains faster so there's only 10 survivors but at least they see how bad the camps are and revolt.
@@SkulloMad I say this as a dude who isn't the biggest fan of Vaush...you have to be fair here, you're absolutely right in that it's one of the worse traits he has, but here is literally just a case of him giving back the energy he was met with.
As a long time follower of TJ and Paul (15+ years) Their reteric on their previous Podcast convinced me to vote 3rd party in 2016 in swing state Ohio because "Hillary would be just as bad". Now we have a conservative supreme court we have to claw rights back from.
Not voting for someone that doesn't represent your values to a high degree, even when they are closer to your values than the alternative, is always an emotional reaction not based on logic. It's the equivalent of "you don't give me what i want, then fuck you!" This emotional reaction is couched in the rationalizations that you can't in good conscience vote for someone like Biden which is advocating for genocide or whatever the argument is. This never escapes the fact that the alternative is even worse. Not voting for him helps Trump. You cannot escape that. Then comes the second rationalization, "yeah even if Trump is worse maybe not enabling this Democratic party by voting the lesser of two evils will force them to appeal to my values" Again, demonstrably false, that already happened with Bernie or busters and Hillary, which moved the country to the right, which means the Democrats don't even have to be progressive to win, they just have to be not Trump, not voting had literally the opposite effect, it makes Democrats more complacent because in a more right environment , simple moderate left ideas seem more progressive. You d need continuous left pressure to get more progressive candidates, Bernie was possible as a nominee on the back of 8 years of Democrats, now Bernie wouldn't even be an option because the threat of fascism will push the progressive left to be complacent with moderates just to avoid Trump. Then comes the last rationalization "Well i don't care, when i don't vote, my conscience is clear because i didn't help perpetuate this awful system" Once again, that's not logical , abstinence isn't a neutral action, it has real world consequences, when it comes to votes it's a tangible -1 for the Democrats and if you advocate for it and try to convince others, then it's definitely not neutral and even a higher number of minus votes. You're actively helping Trump win. This has real world consequences like abortion rights being moved back decades. When any rationalization you can make to justify your feeling is instantly met with reality, at some point just be honest and say "i don't care about tangible human right progress regressing like Roe V wade as much as i care for virtue signaling my values." That's it, nothing else can motivate a person to subscribe to this rhetoric. And don't get me wrong, getting convinced that Hillary would be just as bad as Trump was kind of reasonable since Trump was an unknown quantity. Now that we know, it's perfectly clear that people who STILL subscribe to this rhetoric of abstinence simply don't care about progress no matter the rationalizations they construct to convince themselves they do.
Also, if a third party candidate couldn't win against literally the two most unpopular presidential candidates in US history then they are never gonna to. At least not under the current system.
Yeah I used to love Drunken Peasants back in the day. Still think they’re funny and Hillary and Biden both suck but to claim they’re no better than Trump is nonsense
Same here, I was very much influenced by TJ during my developmental years. I regret my vote in the 2016 election but I won't make the same mistake this year.
I’m also old at 42. I also canvassed for Gore and Kerry. I also worked on the team that turned Florida blue for Obama. I don’t understand how someone who has actually done that work can possibly say things haven’t gotten significantly better while also never having more at stake to lose. These people are insane. edit: I accidentally implied this guy worked for Obama. He didn’t.
That's definitely true about social issues. I think you'd have a pretty good argument about the standard of living and wealth inequality getting worse and worse for the past 40 years though
sure stuff is better on social issues but our military policy has gotten so aggressive as the empire declines we could destabilize the entire world and kill everyone and on economic issues things have gotten worse
@@jarrettlowery2802 yeah, although it’s been a tug-of-war between Rs sabotaging the economy and Ds bailing it out for my entire political life. It always comes back to the need to defeat republicans, always, with no ceding any ground. We only make progress once they have been ground to dust
If you want more insight TJ has said that he voted Biden in 2020, and is planning not to in 2024 because he thinks he didn't get bang for his buck.. he's actively moved from the "Trump is dangerous and needs to be out of office" to "meh, they're both basically the same anyway"
During that whole conversation, I was think yeah but in no point in history has a president been under 91 felony indictments, tryed to over throw democracy and echoing the words of hitler.. I'm thinking at this point the lesser of 2 evils is a little more clear this election. I'd say democracy is more at stake in this election than those onse in the past
I cancelled my patreon sub after this one. With the election cycle coming up I'm not subjecting myself to hearing paul be wrong and obtuse about democrats ad nauseam for the next year
Damnit I love you for being rational, Vaush. Push to fix our electoral system if you want a 3rd party. Until we do it's a waste of a vote and just giving actual fascism a chance to end our country as we know it, and that's absolutely terrifying.
This guy is betting on an untapped well of support for third-party candidates that just isn't there. The idea that voting for a third party is workable in a first-past-the-post system is just ridiculous. Hell, I live in Canada where we have a viable NDP, and I still can't vote my conscience! I actually have a harder time of it because I have to guess which party, the Liberals or the NDP, has a better chance of winning in my district (or riding, as we call it). If I guess wrong, the conservatives win the seat, and I get to live under a climate-change denying government that only didn't deregulate the banks because 2008 happened before he had a chance to do it. And my saviour from those dark times was frickin' Justin Trudeau! I hate this system but until it changes, I have to vote within it.
I'm getting so grossed out by the fact that they just have so much privilege and either don't see it or don't care. As a trans woman I can't even imagine how fearful it'll be to give Republicans a foot back into the presidential door. Voting blue no matter who will always be a step in the direction of safety and prosperity for progressives.
Voting is something mostly privileged people do in the US. Voter turnout directly correlates with higher income. Probably because most people realize there lives don’t improve under a democratic regime, and to 95% of the world population there is absolutely no difference
Every dem administration simply holds off and every GOP administration accelerates. We are still moving the wrong direction in practice. Look at the top marginal tax bracket from the end of WW2 to now. It never goes up as much as it goes down. We are just moving away from where we want to be slower. We need to be moving in the right direction instead.
@@donovan4222 For one America doesn't make election day a holiday, those with the least ability to take time off to vote will be the poorest. The poor also have the worst educational opportunities, those who go to college vote more for some funny reason. Voter ID laws also are designed in such a way that they make so that most of the time only poor people will be disqualified from voting thanks to them, I've seen this in action myself as someone who volunteers to help people get there registration in order on election day. This could be alleviated through mail in ballots... but guess who's trying to make that not a thing anymore? And Ronald Reagan would and has been called a Pinko by todays Republicans for raising taxes whatsoever... but I don't think the dude who laughed at hearing about how many suffered horrific deaths due to the aids crisis would make it for very long in today's democratic party, his satanic panic anti Rock and roll and anti D&D attitude would be to much for all but a very insane fringe of the democratic party on it's own and would render him a laughing stock in any primary.
@@donovan4222I'm absolutely 100% sure that's not the reason. Most people don't think like that. Hell, you'd probably be surprised how many people barely even know who's president.
The conflations between republican policy now vs 20 years ago was the thing that got my blood boiling. As Vaush said, to say that you either have to be lying or you werent paying attention.
Nah, I'm on Vaush's side on voting for Biden but he threw the first stone here. He got aggressive and started yelling at around 2:04:00 which caused the entire convo to get heated.
Yeah when vaush said paul should manage his finances better, paul couldn't focus or think about anything else than that one sentence for the next three points vaush made. This guy can't control his emotions, what made him think he could participate in a debate? Fucking crybaby
“Didn’t offer any practical solutions to electing a third party candidate” Well you could try voting for them instead of doing mental gymnastics to convince yourself to vote for right wingers every election?
@@donovan4222 Legitimately: what do you think a couple thousand terminally online leftists withholding their votes or voting 3rd party will accomplish? Some huge paradigm shift in the Democratic party?
there is none. voting blue doesnt change anything. voting third party doesnt change anything. the system is rigged against you. it's funny how third party advocates and "vote blue no matter who" advocates both call each other doomer, but in actuality, they both are, because they're both advocating for action that doesnt change anything longterm.
This Debate was hard to watch as a Patron of DFF It seems like Paul and TJ are just unwilling to admit they're wrong about this to the point where they won't even listen to basic logic. Like you could cut together a supercut of them complaining profusely during the Trump admin and all the ill effects that took place after because he was elected but they still won't admit they should have voted for Hillary or at least supported Hillary in 2016. Like I hate Hillary like loathe her but even I'll admit that my Female family members would be better off today if she had been elected it's just common sense. They have a infantile view of politics like many people do as if you can just do things with no oversight as an elected official as if there aren't dozens of political hurdles you have to jump through to get anything done in this country. It's the Force the vote mentality it takes a really childish understanding of civics to think that we can just force through a vote on something that would change so much is foolish.
yeah the supreme court thing is a huge argument in the favor of always voting for the dems eventually the republicans will never win because they stand for nothing but bigotry and tax cuts and the younger generations aren't falling for it and people will demand the dems go farther left they seem to see it the opposite way.
The privilege it takes to be able to sit and argue that things haven’t changed for the better in the past 40 years is honestly astounding to me. For people with real stakes in these issues - LGBT people, ethnic and racial minorities, disabled people etc - things have gotten exponentially better. It’s honestly disgusting to me how these people can sit here and say “well I don’t see any real change so why does it even fucking matter” when in my country I would’ve been forcibly sterilized 10 years ago if I wanted to transition. I’m only able to live as a man today because of the tireless work of real advocates, not because of people who sit and complain that they “can’t see any real changes” when all they consider to be activism is voting every 4 years.
For real. We're only better off on social issues, not economically? So we're just not interested in the economic success of those people? The fact that previously overlooked members of society are allowed to participate in the economy is kind of a huge goddamn deal.
This isn't it though. Things HAVE gotten a whole hell of a lot worse over the past 40 years. To the point where we are actually living through a fascist resurgence. Thats real bad. Some social wins here and there, absolutely. Nothing that won't be taken away if the fascists take over. It's a bad mistake to disregard the damage done by Neoliberalism though. Its a global plague, you and the brits unleashed it, but we ALL have to deal with the fallout.
I like Scotty. He's a good lad. Paul needs to check his ego ASAP because he's VERY quickly slipping into "stubborn old man" territory which all of us will have fight back in our futures, else we become useless naggers. TJ is just mad as always but letting it actually get the better of him. Vaush once again showed that he has the patience of a Saint while being based as always.
@@sypherthe297th2 yea you're probably right. I'm just trying to not burn bridges. Idk if Paul's a tankie or not, but if he's not then he's worth trying to reason with imo
Like Paul (probably the same age) I’m old enough to remember George W. Bush as president and it was a nightmare… but I’d absolutely welcome him today over Trump on a heartbeat. We are literally living in the twilight zone.
Despite all the shenanigans surrounding the 2000 election, there was never any doubt that Bush would step away from the presidency at the end of his second term. Or that he would work to circumvent a clear democratic victory in any election. This is a very different republican party caught in the thrall of cult leader.
This was very fulfilling. I used to subscribe to a belief similar to TJ's. It's essentially based on spite, and doesn't move progress forward. Think about it like this: After Trump beat Hillary in 2016, why did Biden, and not Bernie, get the next Democratic Party nomination? After Trump took office, the Overton Window shifted significantly to the right, which is why topics like Medicare for All are no longer hot topic issues for the American people. If Hillary won in 2016 and 2020, then people would be far more open to discussing topics like Medicare for All, and the rising threat of fascism, while likely still present, would probably be far smaller than it is now. Not voting for Democrats does not make them move further to the left. It may hurt to vote for people that do not share your political beliefs, but voting for the lesser of two evils is an electoral necessity if you want to actually push for the change you purport to care about.
Biden was the shoo in for 2016 and he would have crushed Trump. Oh, and Bernie didn't get the Democratic nominee because he's not a Democrat. Why is that so hard for people to figure out? He votes with the Democrats, allows himself to be counted among them, good... refused to be one unless it came with the title of "Mr President". What a prick. Sorry I didn't mean that, Sanders always refuses the big D. ... which makes him a vagina, right?
I think bernie both times moved the democrats to the left not a ton but before him you never saw main stream democrats even give the idea the time of day and biden is being more left leaning than I thought he would
If you're tired of voting for the lesser evil: 1) Vote against the fascists that are going to take away your vote 2) Pour your energy into ranked choice voting that will make it way easier for non-establisment candidates to win elections
Remember that voting is a handful of times every 4 years... and is the absolute minimum you should be doing (assuming you can vote). Organize and be active in your community (things I am still struggling on, but trying to get better with). It ALL STARTS from the bottom. EVEN IF If West by some miracle got in, he would be the most lame duck president ever because he doesn't have any support from the bottom... More than likely he will take 1-2% of biden votes and swing a couple key states for trump.
I think the Dylan Burns debate was just as bad. They were unironically making "age equals wisdom" arguments in that one. Hearing any self respecting atheist make that argument? Unbelievable.
@@NoOne-hg1qc But if they are making that argument, they still lose cause Dylan has on the ground reporting experience, where as their experience is just yelling at the computer screen. That's like saying, "I have 15 years in computer science, but you only have 5 years in plumbing. Therefore, I'm a better plumber."
@@dumat100 wait.. what? paulsego or whatever said he actively went out and did canvassing and activism and such .. dealing on the ground with trying to promote political causes. (and then the background their parents had fighting for labor rights and stuff, that clearly rubbed off)
@@NoOne-hg1qcyes he USED to. He himself has talked about how different politics is now from when he used to go out and do that. Now he's just sitting his fat ass in a chair jerking off his shitty idea factory he calls a brain with TJ on a podcast. Which is FINE. Just don't call that activism experience.
Moody teenager have the excuse of ignorance. These turds have had a life time to learn this shit and choose to ignore it and grasp at childish ideas instead.
More than anything it comes off as so privileged to believe you don’t have to vote. Like damn, must be really nice to be that privileged to not feel like a president can be the difference between you going to a gas chamber or not.
Easy to bet it all when you have no skin in the game. The worst thing they have to worry about is being nominally left-leaning... something you can just not be anymore if required.
Tell every Palestinian/Arab American you know to vote for Biden. How dare they express privilege by sabotaging Biden’s chances of stopping the Fourth Reich.
Vaush battled thru those poisonous foul mouthed attacks and kept his cool! His points resonate! The weird critics aren't too far from Vaush politically they're just simple minded. I heard this 3 yrs ago. "Oh...just force Manchin n Sinema to comply. The Senate was 50 to 50. Now, Manchin is threatening to leave dems and run No Labels Party, as a spoiler to help Trump. Vaush was prob not VBNMW during Clinton 90s! Bernie did move dems left and covid pushed Americans to accept big govt. Vaush's defeat Trump, crush fascism plan is THE PLAN. And dems and the public are moving left. The public has followed Bernie left and made it MAINSTREAM. W Trump old, retired, and destroyed, the left move can continue!!! More progressives.
His debates are getting more and more depressing. Not because of his lack of debate skills, but because of the type of people he argues with. They're either mentally unhinged, or just LARP'ing in Paul's case.
This was so depressing to watch. PaulsEgo has regressed so badly over the years into a being of pure spite and 🧂 and he ultimately made this whole exchange insufferable. Scotty seemed like the only one who wanted to ask legitimately fruitful questions to Vaush and everyone else. Paul and TJ just wanted to vent and belittle Vaush’s perspective and act like petulant manchildren when he pushed back against their BS.
@@benjaminasmus3980 waaaah I guess you're right. We should shove our thumbs up our asses and either passively or actively help things get worse. Because that makes sense. Let's not beat back fascism while working towards reforming the democrats, and instead just bitch and moan about how nothings fair. What a useless ideology. You might as well hold no beliefs about the world at all
@@benjaminasmus3980 So their answer: Let's give up on choosing who represents us, and choose someone who will obviously lose just in case everyone else decides to do the same exact thing with no organization.
_”You can’t keep appealing to inevitability while hoping for a better future.”_ My God, Vaush is good at this. This kind of sentiment would take me half an hour and several paragraphs to put into words and he did it in a single succinct sentence on the fly.
Isn't this just projection on his part? Talking as if the next election will automatically be Biden v Trump and then advocating for the lesser-of-two-evils voting strategy one year out from the election sounds a lot like inevitability on his part.
@@llcoolade2003 I mean haven't the dems already announced they aren't doing a primary? Also none of the republicans have shown any ability to overtake trump and his followers are too committed to him, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that we don't have Trump v Biden in 2024 aside from Trump being found ineligible or something thanks to all his current legal trouble (which that likely would not stop his followers from trying to write him in or doing Jan. 6 2.0) or one of both of them dying or unable to continue running.
@@HumanIsError It was honestly embarrassing. I know he thought it was tough guy flexing, but he just made him look childish. That and his defense for why he wasn't childish as that he had a job haha what a joke
Typical move for some people too dumb to have an argument, they try to posture as if they're the ones who are cool and above it all after they say some shitty kneejerk thing.
Vaush killed this debate completely! Paul got so mad cause he couldnt make an actual argument against what Vaush was saying. Vaush’s argument- vote blue now; and push socialist policy always; convince moderates to vote socialist Pauls argument- dont vote until socialist policy is passed. Pauls take is so unrealistic.
And he claimed he was using different arguments the whole time on several occassions. Eventually, he said you need to use the vote threat to get policy changes, which makes more sense, but really only gives leverage in primaries.
Biden is carrying out a fascist genocide in Palestine RIGHT NOW. I guess that doesn’t matter to you because the victims aren’t American? It’s hilarious how some idiots breaking into the capitol is fascism but a fascist genocide of Palestinians apparently isn’t?
Yeah. What gets to me most is that I know if any right-winger lost their shit due to a joke-comment like "manage your finances better," he would be angry that they weren't addressing the substance through the shit-talk.
@@blackhabits6408yeah that really prickled me too, it was SO clearly a joke and it was in response to an analogy Paul had made, but the DFF boys and their audience seem to have totally missed that. I don’t get it.
I haven't seen much of him since the original DP lineup days, but every time I do, I do a lot of cringing. Reminds me a lot of unstable people I've gotten into discussions with at bars.
@@AlmightyThagomizerEdgy jokes are only ok when it doesn't offend them. As soon as the joke is on them, they turn into sensitive little babies. The drunken peasants really lost its charm when I started to notice that pattern.
As a legal worker who works in Immigration, I can state unequivocally that Biden’s policies make my life, and the lives of the people my company hires, significantly better. It reeks of massive privilege to say that there’s no difference between the two administrations.
You’re voting for genocide and censuring civil rights advocates. The Democratic Party HATES us. Hakeem Jeffries is on record calling for “enlightened bipartisanship” while unequivocally supporting the ethnic cleansing of 2 million people. They tolerate Republicans far more than progressives.
Thank you. If you don't like Biden, go ahead vote against him during the primaries. But please please please vote for the democratic nominee no matter who.
He's trying to spin the table around, because he has been rightfully called a doomer for years and he's getting annoyed with how it sticks, so he's changing his angle. "Nuh uh, YOU'RE the real doomers!" Insisting that voting matters and playing the cards you're dealt instead of quitting the game, yes, very nihilistic doomer mindset...
Well it's like TJ said, if he took a magic pill so he couldn't know who was in charge, his life would not fundamentally change. He's not in a vulnerable marginalized position in society no matter who wins things will essentially be the same for him.
@@inteallsviktigt People always love to shit on bandaid solutions... when shit like bandaids literally have saved numerous lives over the years by doing something as simple as making it harder for cuts and scrapes to get infected... no one would say that you should stop bothering with bandaids just because the worst off of patients are in need of complicated surgeries in order to stave off an untimely death. You'll have a lot more time and resources to do those complicated surgeries with if patients aren't coming in with infected cuts and scrapes that could have been prevented via simple hygiene and piece of fabric with adhesive on it and depending on how bad those infections get what was initially a minor scrape could turn into having to amputate a gangrenous limb.
@@donovan4222 Yes, you think I'm not sick of how much of a inhumane mess politics is? Since I was a kid it's been obvious, this shit is reprehensible and soul crushing to anyone who actually cares about society progressing and not inflicting harm on there fellow humans, but if my vote meant nothing why the fuck do right wing political parties push for laws that make it harder for people like me to vote? Why would they even care to raise the voting age? Why do they feel the need to even sow doubt as to the veracity of any election they don't win? Power is a disgusting thing that perverts and twists us all, while power is this centralized into the hands of a few it will continue to be so in a very gross fashion... we can either erode that using the nonviolent tools of the state, or we can try and seize the violent tools of the state and hope that where one of the few violent revolutionary movements that isn't being headed by a deeply hippocritical bloodthirsty dickhead and that we also have enough of an advantage to not get crushed by the most powerful military and most powerful propoganda machine ever fucking created. If it was just my life I was betting I might be gung ho about the slight chance that it would succeed... but I'm gambling with so many more lives than just my own including the lives of those who aren't even involved and are just minding there own business whom will instantly become perfect targets for indoctrination by said propoganda machine I am now fighting against because my recklessness did legit make the world more dangerous for them and my protests will just come as me saying "look what you made me do." Any form of politics that isn't just a succession of stubborn bloodthirsty assholes couping each other is built on compromise, a decent percentage of people have beliefs all of us here find reprehensible, they have just as much right to engage with a political system that even has a semblance of fairness as we do. We are winning the culture war, more and more people agree with us hence why right wingers are desperate enough to just want to resort to having a god king step in and take all of our decision making power away. We got to this point where It's even legal for me to exist by choosing the lesser of the evils so that when people marched on the streets or started throwing bricks at cops who where dragging them away for the crime of being attracted to people with the same genitalia as them there would be people on the inside making sure that actually gets translated into new laws and the abolishing of the ones that made me so much as existing a fucking crime. What happens to that pro union bill that gives so much fricken leverage to those forming unions the instant a Republican is in office? What happens if another supreme court justice dies and there in power to replace them? How can there even be a fair election if even more courts across the country are run by Trumps lapdogs and they go along with throwing away the ballots of those who didn't vote for him? Are we gonna convince the party that openly decries democracy and that thinks having a godking is a good idea to allow for the introduction of legislation that actually makes voting for a third party viable?
So you agree he is less Hitler than Trump? But you won't vote for Biden to try and prevent more Hitler from winning? Help me understand why less Hitler is as bad as more Hitler!
They clearly didn't. If the Greedy Old Perverts win next year, they will implement Project 2025, and our republic will be dead. Leftists will probably be rounded up at that point. Then what will they do?
I've been watching Vaush from basically day one (and before, aka IrishLaddie) and I honestly think this debate is among his absolute best. He painstakingly lays out how absurd and frankly privileged TJ and Paul's positions are. Ultimately, I'd like to thank Vaush for fighting so vociferously for the ideals of democracy and humanism.
Well as someone who's watched both since their inception. (Well technically 2010 for tj). Vaush is right and Paul always takes the damn argument from tj always and makes the most retarded takes while tj says minimal shit. Tj would probably side with vaush if Paul wasn't his like best friend, even Scotty is prone to not talking as much as Paul. It's honestly annoying I wish tj came alone
This topic is life or death to him. If not for his life or death personally, then for the life or death of many people he considers friends, and his followers. I remember a video ages ago where he voiced concern in a way that got me crying over fans in Florida of his that he was scared that some regulars in his chat from Florida would just disappear cause of those trans laws. He named one or two iirc. Like he cares a lot more than people realize about his community, and about marginalized people in general. He gets so much shit for minor missteps (if they're even missteps at all) from the left despite being one of the most passionate people fighting for those ideas and people in the best ways he can.
Agreed. I'm Paul's age range and that giy is a disappointment. He needs to learnt hat if he isn't willing to maintain the cause he needs to get out fo the way and let the next generation do it. He isn't giving meaningful advice he is just trying to spread misery without understanding who it will affect. I'm Indigenous Mexican. Several of the people I know are DACA, individuals that, under Trump, were under threat of unjust deportation. But clearly, Biden and the Dems are just as bad as the GOP right? All those thongs he called Vaush(who isn't perfect) he needs to understand he is being. He seems to think he has a right to appeal to the sense of working class mentality while being willing to throw people like me under the bus. That guy can "vete a la mierda". The best thing he can do is fade into obscurity.
This debate is easily solved with one fact... I can name 100 meaningful ways Biden is better than Trump, but nobody can name a single meaningful way that Trump is better than Biden.
that's the thing I don't understand, we literally already did this song and dance. people whined about Hillary, we got Trump hell for 4 years, then we got fucking Biden which these same people are complaining about, abstaining or throwing your vote away in 2016 did not get us socialist daddy in 2020, what makes anyone think doing it again is going to get a more radical candidate in 2028? especially if trump wins again assuming we still have a democracy in 2028 it's probably MORE likely that we get another corporate moderate neolib in 2028.
As a trans woman, one party is likely to take away my rights and access to HRT meds, and the other one isn't. My choice is pretty obvious. It takes an immense amount of privilege and/or lack of self-awareness to not realize how important these outcomes actually are to so many people. Voting isn't about making yourself feel good. It's about harm-reduction
And his fallback of "Trans people are more impoverished than most, so improving their material conditions will help them" is just pointless when Repubs are trying to *take away our right to access health care.* Like dude, I know you've staked your hopes on some third party rising like a phoenix to brush away Dem complacency and defeat Donald Trump, but I don't think my fellow trans folk can afford to bet on a one in a million chance here on the off-chance that our material circumstances improve. I'd rather be impoverished with legal access to treatment than impoverished and having to flee my goddamn state/country because I can't legally access health care or even walk about as myself in public.
EXACTLY! THANK YOU! These fucking - sorry to get all liberal but - white, cis men have no idea how privileged they are to feel they even get a fucking choice in this matter. LGBT people like myself (a gay trans man) do NOT get the right to sit on their high horse and choose who they consider “worthy” of their vote. This shit is literally life or death for a large portion of the voter base and it’s not in the least bit surprising to me that it’s the loud, white, cis, probably straight or straight-passing men on the “left” who think they have the right to choose outcomes that will SEVERELY effect minority communities, while continuously arguing that they’re doing this on their behalf. If they were genuinely able to look past their privilege for one moment, they would come to the conclusion that voting for the lesser evil is in fact *the* correct choice if you want to actually advocate for minority rights. Minorities do not have the privilege to choose in these questions. They do not understand the privilege they hold to even sit here and discuss this in the first place, and it’s honestly fucking disgusting to me that these people consider themselves the arbiters of correct political thought and minority rights. They should take some time out of their schedules to actually listen to what we, the people who will be the most severely affected by their advocacy for these issues, think would be the correct thing to do.
Absolutely. This whole thing of people saying they won't vote blue has been terrifying to see, and it's also always the most privileged people. It's so frustrating to see people not care about trans people if it means feeling bad about themselves morally. Like okay, you say you care and you support us, but you don't really.. idk It's caused trans ppl I know to have such depression.. I wish people would care more. But they're privileged, and it won't effect them the way it will us, so they dont care.
Saw this live. My favorite part was where they wanted Biden to weaponize the FBI to blackmail congress into supporting his agenda. Solid political discourse. A+
They acted like that was some sort of effective strategy for trump when his crookedness was literally why people showed up in record numbers to vote him out (and it’s all coming back to bite him in the ass now too)🤦🏻♀️
I could not believe when they were unironically arguing for fascisistic weaponization of government agencies to strongarm political opposition. Opening that particular Pandora's Box would be so unbelievably shortsighted that I was dumbfounded they couldn't see how stupid an idea it would be.
@@credman That's a blatant lie. The turning point for LBJ getting Medicare passed was winning the 1964 election in a landslide. This allowed Democrats to replace Republicans that had been on the relevant committees, stopping them from preventing it coming up for a vote. Don't try to gaslight everyone into thinking your authoritarian ideas have yielded good results in the past.
@@credmanso was AOC's vote to fund the Iron Dome. DFF says they want party leaders to use strong arm politics for their beliefs. Then they do so to do ghoulish shit and they shocked pikachu face. As if this wasn't exactly what Vaush and the OP commentor was talking about.
Uuh but people invented dishwashers because they didn't want to wash their dishes! Therefore the logical position was always to eat on plates covered in rotten remains of old food while complaining about dirty dishes until someone finally frees us from the dishopoly.
While Biden has done some good stuff, I still don't like him- I don't like most politicians. But the fact of the matter is, against people who are planning Project 2024 and trying to undermine the constitution, the obvious choice in a president would be the candidate that is not going to that. Lesser of two evils voting is the way it's always been, it's just that younger people seem to be realizing how much BS it is more than previous generations have before. It's an unfortunate fact that there will probably not be a popular president that's significantly more progressive than our current democrats, at least for a long while. So we have to work with what we got.
Biggest lifehack right here, the rule of law, the economy, social views, crime rates, hate crimes, etc. don't apply to you or affect you if you don't vote.
THIS. It's the part of the argument they just absolutely refuse to accept. They have to deal with the results either way. Them and 300 million other Americans.
No, it's worse than that! If you want to starve you have to vote for starvation. They don't vote. That means they're going to eat shit. And they're going to push people towards eating more and more shit. And they think think we're lame! They think we're lame for trying to reduce the amount of shit we have to eat! @@richardsbiggestfan4861
Yeah. I watched the whole thing last year and while I enjoyed it there was this thought on the back of my head telling me: "Man this attitude towards politics is so infantile"
it was kind of true back then pretty sure vaush even pointed this out in the debate. clinton was a turd, kerry was a turd, bush was a turd. but the stakes have been raised and this dynamic no longer applies and lots of people fail to see it.
Vaush really hits the nail on the head here. The time for activism is NOT on election day. That's comes years earlier. Election day is for securing a better future with the choices your actions have enabled. Pretending like your vote is a form of activism in this way is some of the most cringe slacktivism I've ever heard of, especially with how Paul pretends like it's such a pious thing to do. Fucking embarrassing.
This is such a copium lie. The election is still one year away, candidates like Marianne and Cornel have been challenging Biden for months, not a peep of support from Vaush. Vaush would oppose any outside challenge to the Democratic Party regardless of when the candidate/movement started. You claim “activism is not on Election Day” ok then when have you or Vaush taken any steps to challenge the liberal Democratic Party’s genocidal leadership in the last 4 years? Months after Biden was elected Vaush already stopped talking about the concentration camps at the border and acted like they were improved now.
I’m pretty sure that most of the greatest political revolutions of all time came from people rejecting what’s given to them rather than accepting it forever.
All that not voting and allowing the GOP to win would do is tell the Democrats that being more right-wing is what will win them the votes. They won't look at the demographics of those who didn't vote, because so much of the country already doesn't vote, they will focus on the demographics that did.
That...or even worse...the lack of a vote. Especially in accordance with the current genocide against Palestinians, the amount of people who unironically believe withholding their vote (just to get Brandon to spew empty platitudes against Israel) is astounding to me.
This disgusts me because we tried this in 2016 with Bernie and bust. The left leaning voting turnout was abysmal in 2016 compared to 2012 and earlier. And what happened in 4 years: - the Supreme Court was lost for a generation leading to the loss of abortion rights, stripping of LGBTQ rights, stripping of voter protection rights, stripping of labor rights. - 1 million Americans died from COVID - economy is shattered because of trumps tax cuts - record profits for corporations - privacy rules on the internet was obliterated by trumps FCC chair - labor unions took a massive hit leading to a huge delay for Amazon and Starbucks workers getting protections - a huge hit to the movement for ranked choice voting because of the threat of democracy - multiple near wars started by trumps fight with Iran - obliteration of us trust in international stage - obliteration of US manufacturing that was starting to recover - obliteration of EPA regulations -half on movements to improve public employee pay - obliteration of postal service spiking delivery costs And so much more with one failure to vote blue.
And what happened since 2020? -Biden is carrying out a fascist genocide in Israel -Biden has the same position on the Iran deal as trump -Biden suspended Afghan assets leading to starvation for millions -Biden continued the US backed genocide in Yemen -COVID death rates have not changed because Biden changed nothing - Biden approved a record number of oil drilling permits -Biden kept trumps title 42 immigration policy in place for 3 years, and his new policy is even tougher to get asylum. -Military budget increased again - still concentration camps at the border with border patrol running rampant
Sad that Paul not only doesn't care about the gains during Biden, but doesn't place much import on the losses during Trump either. Which makes me wonder why he wastes his time and energy following politics at all. It's just energy down the drain, especially since he's putting all his hopes in the always abjectly pointless third party. Vaush provides a flawed solution, Paul provides NO solution; grim practical reality versus desperate clean conscience fantasy. In this system, it is hard to create, and easy to destroy. He gives Biden grief because he didn't pass the low bar with every dream agenda done to his satisfaction in this endlessly stacked against you political system operating with half the Congress tied behind his back at a minimum, so make way for Trump to rip everything apart and set us back decades again. All because Paul can't swallow his pride to make one unpleasant yet still very black-and-white practical decision of the longterm health/survival of the country
One failure to vote blue? The fuck do you mean> Blue won by 3 million in 2016. But yeah, Bernie voters are the problem, and not the electorate formed almost three fucking centuries ago to keep everyone but rich white men from having opinions.
If you want to "hold Democrats accountable," you actually bother to show up to vote, you write letters and make calls; and whenever possible, you find a primary opponent to get those people out. You don't check out for 3 1/2 years and then complain that you don't get what you want.
Checking out for 3 and 1/2 years is what most Biden voters do….if there was more organizing around direct action than voting things might actually change
@@donovan4222 They don't realize that it's their insistence on voting being the most important political action a person can do that contributes to people checking out for 3 1/2 years. People who don't vote are always saying to engage in organizing and direct action but this community would then scoff at them.
@@Vizardog Okay, I'll just ignore that you're responding to one of the biggest tankie trolls on this channel and go to the meat of your argument. Voting is the thing that sets everything else up that you do in politics. It is the equivalent of putting up a wall and saying that it is stupid to put a board behind the plywood every 16 inches. That wall isn't staying up without the foundation backing it up. An example of this in action. I ran for the state legislature in 2006 when I still lived in West Virginia. At the time, both houses were overwhelmingly Democratic (going into the election, the House of Delegates [which I ran for] was 68-32, and the state senate was 23-11), but the pro-choice people couldn't get a thing that they wanted on reproductive rights. One of the incumbents lamented out loud about it in a meeting with candidates. Well, a big reason why they couldn't is because the pro-choice group, WV Free, was a 501(c)(3) and couldn't contribute to candidates, while West Virginians for Life was a PAC and freely gave to members of both parties. I asked one of the top people in WV Free about it, and she said that they can raise more money as a non-profit because "people want the tax deduction." Well, if they had friendly legislators to lobby to, _just maybe_ they would have had better results, and abortion would still be legal in the Mountain State. But do tell how organizing without voting will make things better.
I will primary them. I will primary any pro-Israel politician I have the option to primary. I won't elect any pro-Israel politicians. If dems want to beat the GOP they better be prepared to compromise.
@@wvu05 What does your assessment of them being a "tankie troll" have to do with anything? Voting doesn't set anything up for the average person's engagement with politics. It can set up a candidate with their career in politics and, at best, maybe introduce a candidate more amenable to your advocacy if you're an activist, but for the average layman, it most often doesn't "set something up" for you. I notice you've convinced yourself that the point being made was "organize and never vote." I'd recommend you re-read the comments you're replying to because you've missed the meat of the argument despite claiming to address it. You don't address how voting alone prevents people from checking out of politics. It's the organizing that keeps people "checked in." Lastly, in your anecdote, the issue you highlight was funding. As you said, the state legislature was ALREADY overwhelmingly Democratic, which means ostensibly, they had put in favorable legislators to their cause. But they did not have the money to out-compete the other group and that money doesn't come from the ballot box. How does this even support your point? How did you type that and then conclude that it failed because they didn't vote? If anything, you're articulating the futility of voting for Dems and expecting change without more successful organizing outside of the ballot box.
“Faking calm after freaking out when I called you a kid isn’t gonna make people forget about the earlier part.” Damn son… I’m surprised he didn’t lose his mind over that jab
That was pure hatred man, I dont think ive ever seen vaush be that overtly vitriolic unless its a rightoid who is unironically evil. Kinda a shame cuz everyone else was pretty much civil. Vaush just spent 3 hours burning bridges for no benefit whatsoever
@@andrewshotathompson5116 It was because he bullied Paul so much. I'm still unsure if all that was acting or not. I know a lot of DP drama was staged, like the piss throwing. Scotty has his moments, but my 'problem' with Scotty now during DFF is that he usually just repeats what TJ and Paul say, or he says things that are just "No shit Sherlock" and takes way longer to say it than necessary (repeats himself). And while Scotty can be very funny, he still isn't as funny as Paul and TJ. They feel like natural speakers and entertainers while Scotty feels more like a normal guy, but that's also part of his charm and why he is needed for the trio dynamic of the show. I still like that he's the centrist on the show while Paul is a full on communist and TJ is getting there.
My favorite part was when the angry man-baby said,"if Biden does 1 good thing I'd vote for him" and you mention the union stuff that he already agreed was a good thing and he immediately move the goalposts and started equivocating. It's the exact same thing people arguing from pure emotions do all the time which is why they rarely have actual policies or opinions beyond "I feel"
To be fair, I think he more meant if Biden does one good thing that helps me in a more immediate & tangible way; the union victories feel more like future promises right now to many. But objectively he did move the goalposts there.
Paul's entire argument against Biden is "well I've never heard about anything good he's done". I'd love to see him debate Dylan Burns just so that Dylan can spend 4 hours straight listing off actual real legislation Biden has got passed.. but of course Paul will just sit there getting his ass forcibly educated and he'll immediately pivot to endless new issues that are of pressing concern. He'll have Biden's entire legislative history forcibly injected into his ears and then act as though Biden is basically Trump because no $15 minimum wage.
Paul's Ego is despicable. Who does he think will actually take him seriously after that unhinged meltdown? Good job advocating for workers. If only he had as much passion getting off his ass and walking the walk 🙄
as someone who used to quite enjoy drunken peasants back in my more foolish youth, it’s clear to see paul has backslid into his hopelessness. like the dude is seriously depressed and can’t confront his own apathy
"If Biden did one good thing I'd vote for him" "OK here's a couple things" "Yeah those were good but still 98% chance I wouldn't vote for him" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
The ego of these guys. They can’t fathom a cause that is greater than them and will take literally longer than their lifetimes to show it’s fruits. This is childish behavior.
The ego of Biden. Rolling the dice of fascism just to cement his legacy as a two-term president before he kicks the can. Also to further serve his corporate donors. I will not vote for Genocide Jim Crow Joe. Blackrock Biden doesn't get my vote.
It's because they are pampered ponces. As much as TJ tried desperately to nail himself to a cross he hasn't faced the same ahit as those who are effected by the shit policies of conservative politicians. He doesn't have to worry about abortion, being being a single mother dealing with getting their family fed or go to a decent school. The list goes on. He gets to fold his arms and whine LIKE a TODDLER and act indignant over it because he won't be effected for a long time. Which as a side note, I wish they did more of these in person. If you're going to act like that you need to be abke to literally fight. Or shut up and use your brain
do you think the dems had anything to do with roe v wade being overturned? do you think that they take any responsibility in the state that the republican party is in today? or do you blame nonvoters for the reason that republicans are so powerful? (dont blame the dems - who share many of the same donors as republicans, and help the republican party get wealthier all the time, blame nonvoters. right? and bernie was the reason hillary lost back in 2016, right?)
@@J0E64 yes, the republican justices did that. but republicans dont do things in a vacuum. the dems are a large reason why the republicans have the power they do. if the dems were more confrontational, and didnt have many of the same donors that republicans do, those justices might've not been appointed in the first place. but because dems are fascist enablers, they've allowed many republican victories.
@@kingobama4305 I hold Republicans primarily responsible for their actions. The point of this video and my response is that what we can do as individuals is to limit the power of Fascists by voting directly against them.
Roe V Wade being overturned has everything to do with Liberals not codefying it into law the MULTIPLE times they held majories in the house and senate under Obama. It also has everything to do with RBG NOT dropping her ego and retiring when she had the chance and dying during Trump's Presidency.
"If Joe Biden did *one fucking thing* that I was actually impressed by, then I'd vote for him" Vaush proceeds to list 2 things "That got him a little bit of the way there" I guess he wants Biden to suddenly become a socialist out of thin air for that *one thing* to happen. Jeez man.
At that point it was so clear he is just being a disingenuous hack. This is all spite politics to them, cuz they are privileged enough to not be negatively affected by the outcomes.
@@Khalkarayeah he feels like one of those guys that isn’t really opposed to fascism by its very nature but is just angry that the fascists don’t do the things he wants
@@Khalkarait’s called “out of touch” The working class in California has all but been forgotten about. 😂 the working class in Californian is the bogey man Hess people prop up to sell democrats. Really disgraceful
@@frankwest5388you're talking about disingenuous but you say shit like that lol Vaush fans are horrible. Quit pretending to be Socialists and admit you're Democrats
Vaush: If Republicans win, they will kill us, we won’t get another chance TJ: How likely do you really believe that is? I hope that moment is replayed to TJ when he’s grabbed by the beard and up against the wall, just before he hears the gun cock and his brains get blown out
Really shows how childish Paul and TJ are when they've got nothing but grandstanding and insisting violent posturing would fix the entire political system. It's pathetic.
Saint like patience, supported America's second Catholic president, and recent praise for the pope? Have you ever considered TJ might be pulling the wool over our eyes with his pretend endorsement of radical reddit atheism?
I endured this on stream. This was bad for my heart condition. These are exactly the type of people who have made me believe the Online Left is utterly useless. The guy in the shades was alright, I will say that. As for the other two, especially the loudmouth Paul, I question their Left credentials, and this video demonstrates all kinds of reasons for that. How many sullen Republican voters have I known in my life who sound just like Paul. Too many.
This debate in a nutshell: Don't you think "me" saying I wouldn't vote for Biden will cause a massive change in his politics? Holy shit these idiots are priviledged.
"Do you really think *_I,_* with my thousands of followers spread out across the country in various states where the vote might become tight, throwing away my vote and yelling at that audience to do the same? Don't be silly!!!!!! I'm nobody!!!1!!!1!!"
Your listening comprehension is abysmal. Accepting the status quo to the day you die and refusing to understand how the duopoly works in tandem to undermine the working class to shrink their quality of life generation after generation is not a resolve. That is the very concept of settling for less to an absurd degree
It’s amazing to me how a man who claims to have done backbreaking manual labor (even on the weekends), but who now sits in a chair and spews his opinion for a living, can say say that things haven’t gotten ANY better at all… When clearly, they did for for him.
Yooooo, that’s actually a REALLY good point and (deceptively?) a muuuch deeper hit than just a good little snipe at some light attitudinal hypocrisy on Paul’s part. Long-ass explanation: I seriously don’t mean to malign him excessively here, but I think the only way you can maintain mental consistency given those beliefs and those experiences (i.e., avoid the cognitive dissonance) is if you’ve ALSO at least partially bought into the _very conservative_ myth of pure and perfect meritocracy for yourself: the notion that (most or all of) the good that has come to you was (mostly or fully) earned through your own keen judgment and personal character and hard work alone-effectively disregarding ANY existing circumstances or outside factors-and therefore was essentially just natural and deserved. In other words: your life may have improved, but it was solely due to your traits/decisions/actions, and not because of anything to do with the system you’re in, and therefore, crucially, it _doesn’t count_ as data that might indicate the existence of any positive aspects of our society right now, or any types of privilege at play in your favour. I mean, it’s either the above perception of how the world works, OR, you have to constantly lie to yourself (and everyone else) that your life is fundamentally no better and you’re still more-or-less baaasically every bit as much of a beleaguered underdog as you were before. (Remember he consistently framed his arguments from the perspective of “Things are so bad for so many people, I’m the proof!” and not “I’m an exception here, but look at how bad things are for so many other people!”) And frankly, I don’t think Paul would do that...? I don’t think that he’s dishonest or disingenuous or ill-intentioned or self-deluded in this way. OR, third and final option, possibly, I suppose: His time spent as an online content creator has genuinely been less rewarding than the labour he was doing previously, which… well, if true, then (insofar as anything can be said to be the workers’ fault under late-stage capitalism) I think that’s kind-of on him, yeah?? I can’t stress enough that I’m not trying to make a personal attack out of this; it just happens to highlight a central fallacy that you need as an underlying pillar to hold a large handful of the other beliefs he conveyed in this conversation. I sincerely empathize with the huge tangle of messy emotions he displayed here, and I’m pretty inclined to say that _everyone should._ Doesn’t make him correct, though!!! I seriously wish I had a less heavy-handed, clinical-sounding, pseudo-academic, sensationalist name for it, but for lack of a better description (seriously), all of those feelings sound like the product of… like… a form of generational proletarian trauma. Again, very unsatisfied with the term I’ve come up with but I guess that’s on me. Hahaha.
@@deadfr0g or he had an element of luck involved... How do you gloss over something so key? The argument that because Paul's career is now better than in the past it can only be that general circumstances in the country are better is complete and utter non sequitur.
TJ disappointed me more in this debate than he ever has. I don’t know how you could arrive at the right position and then regress. And then to not even have cogent logic backing it up? Embarrassing
@@BJSepuku I was a teenaged edgelord back then. Those videos didn’t disappoint me at the time. I would hope that we all get smarter with our decisions and more knowledgeable. But with tj it’s like, He abandoned anti-sjw shit, he was convinced to vote blue in 2020, he distanced himself from old, less nuanced takes. And then out of nowhere he’s back to anti electoralism. I’m not disappointed in vile shit, I’m disgusted by vile shit, and eager to see growth. I’m disappointed in regression.
@@trevor5666 He's said that this topic is something he goes back and forth on each election. I like TJ, I've been a fan of his for over a decade now but he's not a consistent person. His first recent video on the Israel/Gaza situation was basically "who cares, it's just a bunch of stupid muslims and stupid jews" which was incredibly dumb as he has done good coverage of this issue for years even if it was never a focal point for his channel, yet since that video he has made multiple videos on the issue where he knocks it out of the park. I don't think he's a grifter or anything, just how much he cares about any given issue seems to depend on what side of the bed he gets up from in the morning.
"Everything has turned to shit." "Yeah, what are you gonna do about it?" "Well my plan was to sit in my room and feel self-righteous about not voting."
What is Vaush doing about it? He’s sitting in his room talking to his 14 year olds audience about how liberalism is cool actually. Voting for liberals changes absolutely nothing, how do you think Trump got elected in the first place? Russian Facebook memes? You keep talking about how trump is such a huge threat to the world but continue to mindlessly vote for the disease that caused the Trump symptoms in the first place.
what am i going to do about it? i'm going to continue watching the entertaining sh*tshow from afar and enjoy my life the best i can, and stay the heck away from a voting machine. politics has taught me one thing - enjoy the time you have, because there's a bunch of obnoxious politicians who want to take it away. if you can't change the way the world works, then find your way to enjoy it. there's no point in moping.
@@kingobama4305 dude if you wanna be miserable do it on your own time. but you don't have the right to complain if you didn't even make an effort to make the world a better place to live in.
@@strega0 nah, i'd rather find joy in the world as it is instead of wallowing or worrying about if i can fix it. no need to. got everything i need. any type of fixing is beyond what i am capable of, so lemme just relax and enjoy the ride.
Threatening to not vote Democrat doesn't make Democrats change their policy to be more left. This is literally demonstrated 20 years ago and beyond. All it does is allow conservatives to win.
I think Vaush brought this up before, "after the democrats lost the presidency three times in a row, we got legendary radical leftist...Bill Clinton." Democrats losing over and over again only pushes the party more and more right.
And then actual tangible policy and appointments drift farther right. It's maddening how many people think handing victories over to Republicans is some sort of deeper progressive game.
It is one of the most idiot beliefs because they are not going to chase your vote but chase the votes against them. It is amazing how they cannot connect the dots to 2016 and losing SCOTUS. Gee, what happened in 2016? Hey, I am some dipshit streaming white dude who the consequences will not affect. POTUS is not a king. Vote blue is not just about POTUS. Congress has to be blue, both houses and with the filibuster the Senate has to be far more than 51-49. I loved the bit about Lincoln. Over simplify much? Geesh. Lincoln only emancipated slavery in belligerent states as per his war powers. He did not in the border slave states. Congress had to vote and pass those amendments and then the states had to ratify them.
Two illuminating examples from early in the debate: That “eating a frosted turd vs raw turd” from Paul. Vaush says that if he’s forced to choose, he wants the lesser of two evils (aka frosted turd lol). Then Paul’s response is to say that not voting for any “turd” means not eating any of them. It shows that what’s at stake in his mind isn’t the general political outcomes, as long as Paul can pad himself on the shoulder and go “I’m good, I didn’t vote for the neo-cuck” he thinks he isn’t eating shit. “Voting blue is like delaying a time-bomb” from TJ. Firstly yes, delaying a bomb is good. I thought that their whole schtick was that they wanted to oppose the whole system aka properly “defuse the bomb”. So why don’t they want more time to try and achieve that? Why say it doesn’t matter if the bombs goes off tomorrow? Secondly, they act like letting “the bomb go off” is just a thing that happens and then it’s over? The bomb going off is the beginning. Thirdly, if they really think Dems and Repubs are basically equally bad, then why portray one side winning as a potential “bomb” going off. There’re obviously more examples you could give, basically everything they said was misframed or just false. All they really offer is just another flavour of anti-intellectualism.
They're genuinely doing neolib thing of thinking time isn't real and things can't get worse. Like democracy and human rights just kind of magically exist forever and the only real issues are employment rates and gas prices.
The idea that not voting is even up for debate confounds me. Where does this stance end? Is not voting a viable position for local elections if your choices are just as limited? Do you think that will help or hurt those of us whose healthcare is literally on the line? I’m just baffled.
I'd like to thank Vaush for doing this debate. I know it was annoying having to talk political realities to people that think grabbing a tire iron is the way to get medicare for all.
@@benjaminasmus3980 If you feel this way you're completely addicted to the news cycle and don't have a grounded perspective. There are lots of ways where people on the ground are living better lives thanks to people engaging in the democratic process.
@@benjaminasmus3980 "At least you feel good independently compared to watch failure and misery every day" Spoken like a true sociopath bully. If "busting some kneecap" makes you "feel good", you are no better than the violent sociopaths you are pretending to stand against.
The fact they act like that's a viable political strategy is fucking pathetic. Like what functional adult says some dumbass shit like this like it's ok.
@@benjaminasmus3980 Are you actually suggesting that threatening congresspeople is more grounded in reality than engaging in the political process? Do you want authoritarianism? Because this is literally how you get it...
I just checked out the comment section on Paul's video, and WOW I have literally never seen so many people siding with Vaush before outside of this channel. Almost every comment is saying that they agree more with Vaush, and how silly primarily Paul was being. Also a lot of people saying Vaush changed their mind. Pretty wild. Vaush is damn good at what he does.
Vaush wants to vote for genocidal Biden so he can continue to sit in his computer chair and be dumb while a holocaust of Palestinians happens, because he apparently can’t do that under Trump I guess?
I think the problem is that most Americans have always been completely isolated from the consequences of their actions, so they don't truly understand how bad things could really get. Maybe its cause I'm a eurofrog, but this sentiment terrifies me. You know what mass voter abstemiousness because the ineffective centrist party didn't do enough gets you? You get the Third Reich, that's what you get. And everyone else has to pay for it. I'm from a small country. When you big, globally powerful countries go full fucking rabid, its us and poor countries or otherwise weaker countries who get the worst of it. Last time that happened my country made a deal with the devil to spare itself the horrors of WW2, a shameful, cowardly act, and we were the ones who got lucky. The rest of Europe was bled and starved and murdered and enslaved. If you were a German in 1933 and decided not to vote to "pressure the SPD" and that knowledge could be magically beamed into the minds of the victims of the Nazi regime, they would use their last breath to curse you. Because they never had any ability to stop this, they never had a choice. You did, and chose to do nothing because you wanted to play main character of history. Ignorant Americans have the luxury of not caring about the result of how they vote because "well they are both the same really, the worst has already happened, muh patriot act". Meanwhile I have to be constantly anxious about another country's elections because a possible consequence of you lot being too lazy or grandstanding to vote is me and everyone on earth dying in nuclear hellfire a few decades down the line because the cavorting hordes of cannibal evangelicals ruling over the carcass of America have decided it's time to sacrifice all of humanity for the rapture.
Facts. I'll never understand how people like Paul will accuse this kind of thing for being doomer when it's just reality - situations can always get worse, and institutions aren't impervious to the worst fucking imaginable scenarios. Like come on, if you're even remotely left-leaning you should know this. And even if that scenario doesn't come to pass, where does thinking it's already the worst it can be get you? Does not participating in the slightest because you'd rather wait for some perfect deity make it any better?
As someone who has watched these guys for years I can confidently tell you Paul's opposition to voting Dem is purely emotional. He literally says as much constantly "I could never bring myself to vote for Dems" "boo hoo I was duped by Obama", everything else is window dressing. Unfortunately Tj has allowed Paul to grind him down to a little nub that offers no opposition to his fits
Same here and your right. I'm a patreon of theirs and like their shows but it seems like they don't realize how bad the right has got since GW Bush and they dont remember the effects of Trump winning. I can understand that because being a leftist from Reagan to W Bush was a horrible time and I wasn't at the time, I was a moron conservative in ways other than bigotry and abortion but learned my mistakes and learned history and the effects of right wing policies and their effects while seeing the opposite policies and how well they have worked. It's a double edge sword working with the current centrist democrat party but theirs nothing else at the moment to counter the right. The work that needs to be don't between elections seems like they forget that.
@@weightlifting_socialist I do not understand because they have identical positions save for spending 13.8 seconds filling in a bubble for a Democrat. If you do that Paul will unironically spend hours telling you about how you're spending all of your time advocating for Democrats.
I'm not a debate bro. I don't even like listening to debates. But man, Vaush staying on point, explaining his position and staying rational vs the emotional reactions of Paul is amazing.
"I'm older than you!" Reminds me of a time I was arguing with a conservative who said, "ehhh you're just a millennial," to dismiss everything I said without having to engage with any of it. So fucking weak. "My beard is bigger!" Would have been a more compelling argument.
Literally my mom's favorite go to on any political topic, it's a thought terminating cliche from people who are just completely convinced they're so right it's impossible for them to learn even. It was so telling when he was taunting Vaush that he would become Paul.
It was craaaazzzyyy when he said "my parents were union workers and always voted Democrat and lived like rich people and got to retire" and that was the reason NOT to vote for Democrats, the party that's better on unions.
that was not his point tho. I dont agree with a lot he said, but you arent representing his position accurately. The point was that voting for the lesser of two evils is still going to lead to a worse government and it will stack up over time. He says that for this reason the quality of life today is much worse than it used to be.
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan Yeah, I agree with that. Even they agree with that, its just that they think its only slowing down the inevitable. Paul did say that he doesn't care if people vote or not, but wants people to also have some kind of plan to stop this cycle, because its leading us in the same place, just slower. Im honestly not sure how true this is, but i am saddened by seeing how careless they are about genocide. Thats almost a mask off moment. Its hard to be enthusiastic about these monsters. All that is left is the fear from the bigger monsters. Which is beyond depressing
This solidified my love for Vaush. Finally, a leftist who knows realpolitik and realizes that for everyone who isn't a middle-class straight white guy there have been immense strides in the last couple decades. Thanks for understanding how much has been done, and for understanding how to accomplish more with the tools we have. Like 57:35, it is privilege, unironically. We had a trans Marine who kept our battalion running through 2 deployments, and several of my fellow Marines became citizens upon the completion of boot camp through the DREAM act. Trump closed those windows, Biden reopened them. And of course, the only reason I could enlist in the first place was because Dems repealed DADT with total opposition from Republicans. This is why "both-siders" are the most obnoxious mfs in politics.
@@catnerdadrian7601 I go outside everyday since I've got a job and life nice projection on your part. I grow happy knowing that imperialist enforcers subtract themselves everyday from the population by 22 that needs to increase more no sympathy for baby killers like the OP.
Yeah, like. Honestly, that IS the picture book definition of privilege: he is a person who's day to day life will not change if Trump wins, but that isn't the case for women, black communities, immigrant communities, queer communities, trans people... What a self-absorbed, short-sighted, childish way of thinking.
As heated as this got, I hope they don't take this as some reason to hate on you and refuse to have you on anymore, as this was also a pretty damned good debate. Least at some points
I wouldn't hold my breath. Both sides walked away thinking the other wasn't acknowledging any of their arguments, and both comment sections are polarized towards the creator they are listening to.
@blackhabits6408 I've also seen a lot of comments saying they used to be a fan of DFF until Paul got worse and ruined it. There's a good amount of ppl that left DFF thanks to him and the ones that stayed like how annoying and antagonist he is.
@@rcurl44 Well, DFF isn't strictly political, and Paul's cynicism works for their deep-dives and entertainment-based content. He didn't change ever; Paul's been like this for almost 2 decades - believe me, I started online around 2008 watching Paul since he started online. I guarantee that most of those people don't watch DFF for the politics - except to have another content source from leftists, maybe - but those who do, I think, are harder to reach with this logic. Edit: Also when they are political, they are mostly shit-talking the right, and I think none of us would disagree with what they have to say in those regards.
Can confirm I stopped watching because of Paul. His arrogance and synde/smugness just got intolerable after a while. That and he flys off the handle when addressing people in chat. Hes insufferable.
@@_ZapRowsdower Fair enough. I guess I've diverted from the point of the original comment, but I'm more worried about Vaush and DFF's unique points-of-view to collaborate. If you're a DFF viewer who loves their odd and vague politics, then you probably think that Vaush's base is an enemy; that we're somehow doing harm through our tactics. This impression is what I got from their patrons-only video's comment section. Many of them think Paul's a supreme intellectual, and that his words are wise, when we would think that his tactics are what's doing the harm.
As a progressive homosexual man, hearing supposed leftist overlook my right to be human because of a general poor economy… the economy is both domestic and internationally dictated. We’re just objects to these people. *Thank you Vaush* for your efforts.
100% I'm Indigenous Mexican whose family emigrated to America. The threat of DACA being overturned was real, and the idea that things wouldn't change much under Trump is absurd. People who think that way are not allies.
They both hate you sir. DADT was democratic law, and if they really had your best interest at heart they would have codified it into law with a super majority with reproductive rights. Nobody is going to vote republican so don’t bother with this argument. find a different way to make the world better. And also ya boi is helping a genocide, can you get off the me train for a moment. You’d think as a homosexual man you’d be more inclined to realize other people are suffering besides you. Shame sir shame.
Choosing not to vote Biden over one single issue like this is the most "We go high, they go low" shit imaginable. Like "Oh we now have a fascist state and can't do anything other than insurrectionary violence to stop it, which most likely will fail? Well, at least I didn't vote for Biden!"
“One single issue” You mean Biden’s fascist holocaust of Palestinians? You already live in a fascist state buddy, look what your country is doing. Do you not see the victims of Biden’s fascist imperialism as human because they aren’t American or something?
You know what’s funny? You can say this to these ineffective leftists they start doomer posting about how unfair it is they have to chose Biden or Trump.
Yeah when he was saying I. The past he canvassed and said things like vote blue no mater who, but essentially change his stance on that... bro at no point in history has a president been impeached twice and under 91 felony indictments, he's literally used the word vermin to describe people at his rallys... idk how anyone could think this election even remotely compares to any election in the past
PaulsEgo is the one who tends to disappoint me the most in these conversations, because I like him a lot. I think he’s really funny and genuine, and he’s also a great mental health advocate. I remember watching him years ago when he was in really bad shape mentally and wondering if he was still going to be with us, and I’m happy to see that he is. He’s also a great advocate for the trans community. But his voting and political takes are horrendous. He’s one of those people who will never give political leaders credit for anything, ever, unless it’s exactly the way he wants it. He thinks democratic leaders especially have a magic wand they can wave and make things happen. They definitely could be pushing much, much harder, but still, it’s more the far right’s fault than anything, and the lion’s share of the blame is on them.
Not so great an advocate for the trans community if he doesn't vote blue. The state level trans bans going federal has a massive barrier to that removed if the republicans win.
@@LizStaples Hey, Anarchist here. Why is that? I think everyone should vote for Biden. No candidate will ever be perfect, but you take the best you can get at the moment and fight for better. And I do think Biden's done surprisingly well on a bunch of issues (drone war, worker rights yada yada), even if he's still significantly below where I think we should be at this point, and has done a lot of bad as well (for all the god he's done w/ worker rights the rail strike as an example). The electoralism bit just gets to most anarchists, because we dislike how representative democracy works currently. We need instant-recall delegates and other such things for an actually healthy democracy, if we do want to keep some elements of representative democracy in the long run. I feel like the current way we delegate this power is unhealthy and not *real* democracy. Electing people into power who are then completely unaccountable for 4 years is a horrible idea, and I don't see many people actually supporting it. And I feel like we should empower elements of direct democracy more, such as initiatives. Do you disagree? I feel like most progressives agree with anarchist points, they've just been exposed to too many completely out of touch, delusional people and incoherent people with anarchist sentiments honesty.
0:00 Teaser / Intro
0:35 Voting For Joe Biden
37:15 Doomerism
1:16:05 Vaush Is Hopeful
1:31:39 A Lenin Story
1:40:22 This Is Uncomplicated
2:05:08 It Gets HEATED
2:27:53 Post-Debate Thoughts
You missed 2:41 where they concede the entire argument in one sentence
@@maus6967LITERALLY
1:27:00 is where paulsego starts his tantrum btw
A choice between a moderate/centrist Democrat and a fascist isn't really a choice at all. Perfect ain't on the menu, TJ and company. W for Vaush.
Seeing the "it gets HEATED" part when I've just got out of the SERIOUSLY passionate and blood rising spat and speech right before the "Doomerism" arc ends (even got used as the hook line for the video. I'm just-- HUh?? THAT wasn't the heated part yet???
Great work btw, seriously cant understand how you can just click words together to make your points so understandable and inspiring at the same time, I thought you would need some fancy words and analogies, but you actually talk like a human being. I guess that just comes with if you actually care and understand what you're fighting for
Paul's downplaying of the difference between democrats and republicans was by far the most difficult thing to listen to in this debate. It was so painfully obvious how much more he cares about his own image of superiority and apathy than actual changes in the living conditions of average working class Americans.
If anyone who says the left and the right are basically the same, they don't deserve to be heard out. There is no exception. Terrible outlook to have. I detest it lol
He's a middle-class to upper-middle-class White guy who lives in a relatively 1st World nation.....so of course he and those like him so easily take this "I'm a very deep thinker who is above it all" because when shit goes left he isn't going to pay the price for such pudding brained intransience like everyone else who isn't White most definitely will. It's the same dumb-ass take that helped pave the way for Trump. It's all fun and games when you aren't the one who has to directly deal with the fall out.
TJ thinks the same thing, he just can't give people the idea that he cares enough to argue about it on youtube lol
@@rekkwaffle7668bbbbbut they're both capitalist imperialist parties, if it's not my perfect militant leftist vanguard how could I support it?
Don't you know liberals are cryptofascists???
Paulsego is a willfully ignorant dumbass roleplaying as a nihilist.
It’s crazy to hear someone be like we should come up with something else and then somehow magically everyone will adopt it even though we don’t vote. This is so dumb.
Literally the leftist version of "if we all stop paying taxes they couldn't afford the cops to make us" but presented as a serious position
Average non-utilitarian opinion, ngl
It’s maddening 😩
The wild thing to me is that he can't seem to grasp that in order for people to ditch the CURRENT system, you have to come up with a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE. What he's advocating for essentially, is cussing out your shitty boss and rage quitting before you've even bothered to check for any job listings, or start writing a resume.
It's unstable behavior, and it betrays an inability to think on a longer time-scale. Unfortunately, this is one area that the fascists have been beating the left at for generations (at least, in the US). The religious right started working towards overturning Roe v. Wade on THE VERY SAME DAY that case was first decided, and they worked quietly and diligently for the next forty years to infiltrate and subvert the courts.
They are thinking long term. Project 2025 is a perfect example; they've been iterating on that document since 1978. We need to stop being so short-sighted if we're gonna make things better in the long run.
He seems to think that voting will still be an option, next time.
“Biden wasn’t great on X”
Yes and if trump was president he’d be worse. Any disagreement here is accelerationist. I have respect for you valuing building a bridge with these guys.
OF COURSE IT IS HOLY FUCK. AT WHAT POINT WILL YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ACCELERATIONISM IS NECCECARY. WILL THEY ACTUALLY BE ROUNDING PEOPLE UP AND SENDING THEM TO CAMPS BEFORE YOU ADMIT THAT WE HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING INSTEAD OF JUST WAITING AND HOPING IT GETS BETTER!!?
@@donovanmcnitt8077 Yes. And you'll see a return to chattel slavery before people admit that something needs to be done. You'll see witch burnings before people admit that something needs to be done. And you'll see human sacrifices to the christian god to stave off the climate apocalypse before you see people say that something needs to be done.
Accelerationism is a flawed ideology that attempts to predict an outcome that will never happen, and proposed that by making life the worst possible version it is, that people will be forced to stop it. What you accelerationists don't get, is that humanity can sink to the darkest depths possible, and still not rise to the occasion. It's better to take a flawed foundation and try to fix it up, than it is to destroy the foundation and attempt to build something from nothing, you absolute dolt.
@@donovanmcnitt8077 It isn't necessary, just bad. Voting for fascists doesn't cause an equal and opposite pushback that leads to more progressivism. It'll just get you the fascists you ordered.
If we were in the camps, while we're trying to get more food you'd be the one saying they should send the trains faster so there's only 10 survivors but at least they see how bad the camps are and revolt.
Vaush nuked a nerve when he said the guy should manage his finances better. Holy s**t.
I mean yeah, it was a horrible argument intended purely to upset him. Id be mad too but I would try not to take the bait
I think that was a pretty big L from Vaush, one of his worst traits is being snippy in super obnoxious ways.
@@SkulloMad I say this as a dude who isn't the biggest fan of Vaush...you have to be fair here, you're absolutely right in that it's one of the worse traits he has, but here is literally just a case of him giving back the energy he was met with.
Yeah okay
@@catherineh399because vaush is a priviliged beverly hills rich boy. Most americans live on pay check to pay check. Its out of touch.
As a long time follower of TJ and Paul (15+ years) Their reteric on their previous Podcast convinced me to vote 3rd party in 2016 in swing state Ohio because "Hillary would be just as bad". Now we have a conservative supreme court we have to claw rights back from.
This comment is underrated
Not voting for someone that doesn't represent your values to a high degree, even when they are closer to your values than the alternative, is always an emotional reaction not based on logic. It's the equivalent of "you don't give me what i want, then fuck you!"
This emotional reaction is couched in the rationalizations that you can't in good conscience vote for someone like Biden which is advocating for genocide or whatever the argument is.
This never escapes the fact that the alternative is even worse. Not voting for him helps Trump. You cannot escape that.
Then comes the second rationalization, "yeah even if Trump is worse maybe not enabling this Democratic party by voting the lesser of two evils will force them to appeal to my values"
Again, demonstrably false, that already happened with Bernie or busters and Hillary, which moved the country to the right, which means the Democrats don't even have to be progressive to win, they just have to be not Trump, not voting had literally the opposite effect, it makes Democrats more complacent because in a more right environment , simple moderate left ideas seem more progressive. You d need continuous left pressure to get more progressive candidates, Bernie was possible as a nominee on the back of 8 years of Democrats, now Bernie wouldn't even be an option because the threat of fascism will push the progressive left to be complacent with moderates just to avoid Trump.
Then comes the last rationalization "Well i don't care, when i don't vote, my conscience is clear because i didn't help perpetuate this awful system" Once again, that's not logical , abstinence isn't a neutral action, it has real world consequences, when it comes to votes it's a tangible -1 for the Democrats and if you advocate for it and try to convince others, then it's definitely not neutral and even a higher number of minus votes. You're actively helping Trump win. This has real world consequences like abortion rights being moved back decades.
When any rationalization you can make to justify your feeling is instantly met with reality, at some point just be honest and say "i don't care about tangible human right progress regressing like Roe V wade as much as i care for virtue signaling my values." That's it, nothing else can motivate a person to subscribe to this rhetoric.
And don't get me wrong, getting convinced that Hillary would be just as bad as Trump was kind of reasonable since Trump was an unknown quantity. Now that we know, it's perfectly clear that people who STILL subscribe to this rhetoric of abstinence simply don't care about progress no matter the rationalizations they construct to convince themselves they do.
Also, if a third party candidate couldn't win against literally the two most unpopular presidential candidates in US history then they are never gonna to. At least not under the current system.
Yeah I used to love Drunken Peasants back in the day. Still think they’re funny and Hillary and Biden both suck but to claim they’re no better than Trump is nonsense
Same here, I was very much influenced by TJ during my developmental years. I regret my vote in the 2016 election but I won't make the same mistake this year.
I’m also old at 42. I also canvassed for Gore and Kerry. I also worked on the team that turned Florida blue for Obama. I don’t understand how someone who has actually done that work can possibly say things haven’t gotten significantly better while also never having more at stake to lose. These people are insane.
edit: I accidentally implied this guy worked for Obama. He didn’t.
That's definitely true about social issues. I think you'd have a pretty good argument about the standard of living and wealth inequality getting worse and worse for the past 40 years though
sure stuff is better on social issues but our military policy has gotten so aggressive as the empire declines we could destabilize the entire world and kill everyone and on economic issues things have gotten worse
@@jarrettlowery2802 yeah, although it’s been a tug-of-war between Rs sabotaging the economy and Ds bailing it out for my entire political life. It always comes back to the need to defeat republicans, always, with no ceding any ground. We only make progress once they have been ground to dust
If you want more insight TJ has said that he voted Biden in 2020, and is planning not to in 2024 because he thinks he didn't get bang for his buck.. he's actively moved from the "Trump is dangerous and needs to be out of office" to "meh, they're both basically the same anyway"
During that whole conversation, I was think yeah but in no point in history has a president been under 91 felony indictments, tryed to over throw democracy and echoing the words of hitler.. I'm thinking at this point the lesser of 2 evils is a little more clear this election. I'd say democracy is more at stake in this election than those onse in the past
This debate was a lot more tolerable once Vaush gave up on even being serious anymore and just started trolling Paul 💀
As a long time DP and DFF fan, thanks for coming on. Insults and mudslinging aside, you were a refreshing reality check for their show.
Same, I love DFF but I always get so frustrated when they talk about this stuff without proper pushback. They finally got it. This was needed.
I cancelled my patreon sub after this one. With the election cycle coming up I'm not subjecting myself to hearing paul be wrong and obtuse about democrats ad nauseam for the next year
The fucking bonus buckets guy, oh no my sides are splitting from the memories XD
@@huff_gluePaul's been wrong about so much shit since the drunken peasants 😂. Tj is who I stay for
Same here!
Best positive traction on labor rights in 60 years? Not enough, better let a fascist win ig 😆 these guys are le redditors of punditry
Voting is like taking the bus. If there is no bus taking you exactly where you need to go, then you take the one that will get you the closest.
Beats waking the whole way, while saying "I'll show them" 🤣
"They will definitely make better bus routes if no one takes them" ahahhah
Paul: "Eh...I need my cardio anyway."
"Well, what if both buses are travelling in the completely opposite direction to where I'm heading towards?" - Paul, Scotty & TJ.
Damnit I love you for being rational, Vaush. Push to fix our electoral system if you want a 3rd party. Until we do it's a waste of a vote and just giving actual fascism a chance to end our country as we know it, and that's absolutely terrifying.
This guy is betting on an untapped well of support for third-party candidates that just isn't there. The idea that voting for a third party is workable in a first-past-the-post system is just ridiculous. Hell, I live in Canada where we have a viable NDP, and I still can't vote my conscience! I actually have a harder time of it because I have to guess which party, the Liberals or the NDP, has a better chance of winning in my district (or riding, as we call it). If I guess wrong, the conservatives win the seat, and I get to live under a climate-change denying government that only didn't deregulate the banks because 2008 happened before he had a chance to do it. And my saviour from those dark times was frickin' Justin Trudeau! I hate this system but until it changes, I have to vote within it.
They've been saying "vote against fascism" since the early 90s minimally and the Overton window has only moved further towards it
@@slimybakertv because you fuckers don't vote
I'm getting so grossed out by the fact that they just have so much privilege and either don't see it or don't care. As a trans woman I can't even imagine how fearful it'll be to give Republicans a foot back into the presidential door. Voting blue no matter who will always be a step in the direction of safety and prosperity for progressives.
Voting is something mostly privileged people do in the US. Voter turnout directly correlates with higher income. Probably because most people realize there lives don’t improve under a democratic regime, and to 95% of the world population there is absolutely no difference
Every dem administration simply holds off and every GOP administration accelerates. We are still moving the wrong direction in practice. Look at the top marginal tax bracket from the end of WW2 to now. It never goes up as much as it goes down. We are just moving away from where we want to be slower. We need to be moving in the right direction instead.
@@mrgamechanger97 Ronald Reagan would fit in comfortably to the modern Democratic Party
@@donovan4222 For one America doesn't make election day a holiday, those with the least ability to take time off to vote will be the poorest. The poor also have the worst educational opportunities, those who go to college vote more for some funny reason. Voter ID laws also are designed in such a way that they make so that most of the time only poor people will be disqualified from voting thanks to them, I've seen this in action myself as someone who volunteers to help people get there registration in order on election day. This could be alleviated through mail in ballots... but guess who's trying to make that not a thing anymore? And Ronald Reagan would and has been called a Pinko by todays Republicans for raising taxes whatsoever... but I don't think the dude who laughed at hearing about how many suffered horrific deaths due to the aids crisis would make it for very long in today's democratic party, his satanic panic anti Rock and roll and anti D&D attitude would be to much for all but a very insane fringe of the democratic party on it's own and would render him a laughing stock in any primary.
@@donovan4222I'm absolutely 100% sure that's not the reason. Most people don't think like that. Hell, you'd probably be surprised how many people barely even know who's president.
The conflations between republican policy now vs 20 years ago was the thing that got my blood boiling. As Vaush said, to say that you either have to be lying or you werent paying attention.
The double standards needed to compare Biden to trump as a leftist are un-fucking-believable
this guy's ability to remain calm and continue exposing flawed logic using reason and facts in the face of insults and mockery is impressive.
Nah, I'm on Vaush's side on voting for Biden but he threw the first stone here. He got aggressive and started yelling at around 2:04:00 which caused the entire convo to get heated.
Paul is good at making emotional arguments then ignoring informational rebuttals to double down on his emotional stance.
Yeah when vaush said paul should manage his finances better, paul couldn't focus or think about anything else than that one sentence for the next three points vaush made. This guy can't control his emotions, what made him think he could participate in a debate? Fucking crybaby
These guys bloviated for hours, yet they didn't offer any practical solution to getting a third-party candidate into office.
That would involve getting down from their high horse
“Didn’t offer any practical solutions to electing a third party candidate”
Well you could try voting for them instead of doing mental gymnastics to convince yourself to vote for right wingers every election?
@@donovan4222 Legitimately: what do you think a couple thousand terminally online leftists withholding their votes or voting 3rd party will accomplish? Some huge paradigm shift in the Democratic party?
there is none. voting blue doesnt change anything. voting third party doesnt change anything. the system is rigged against you. it's funny how third party advocates and "vote blue no matter who" advocates both call each other doomer, but in actuality, they both are, because they're both advocating for action that doesnt change anything longterm.
@@donovan4222 Who here said they were voting for right-wingers?
This Debate was hard to watch as a Patron of DFF It seems like Paul and TJ are just unwilling to admit they're wrong about this to the point where they won't even listen to basic logic. Like you could cut together a supercut of them complaining profusely during the Trump admin and all the ill effects that took place after because he was elected but they still won't admit they should have voted for Hillary or at least supported Hillary in 2016. Like I hate Hillary like loathe her but even I'll admit that my Female family members would be better off today if she had been elected it's just common sense. They have a infantile view of politics like many people do as if you can just do things with no oversight as an elected official as if there aren't dozens of political hurdles you have to jump through to get anything done in this country. It's the Force the vote mentality it takes a really childish understanding of civics to think that we can just force through a vote on something that would change so much is foolish.
yeah the supreme court thing is a huge argument in the favor of always voting for the dems eventually the republicans will never win because they stand for nothing but bigotry and tax cuts and the younger generations aren't falling for it and people will demand the dems go farther left they seem to see it the opposite way.
The privilege it takes to be able to sit and argue that things haven’t changed for the better in the past 40 years is honestly astounding to me. For people with real stakes in these issues - LGBT people, ethnic and racial minorities, disabled people etc - things have gotten exponentially better. It’s honestly disgusting to me how these people can sit here and say “well I don’t see any real change so why does it even fucking matter” when in my country I would’ve been forcibly sterilized 10 years ago if I wanted to transition. I’m only able to live as a man today because of the tireless work of real advocates, not because of people who sit and complain that they “can’t see any real changes” when all they consider to be activism is voting every 4 years.
For real. We're only better off on social issues, not economically? So we're just not interested in the economic success of those people? The fact that previously overlooked members of society are allowed to participate in the economy is kind of a huge goddamn deal.
This isn't it though. Things HAVE gotten a whole hell of a lot worse over the past 40 years. To the point where we are actually living through a fascist resurgence. Thats real bad.
Some social wins here and there, absolutely. Nothing that won't be taken away if the fascists take over.
It's a bad mistake to disregard the damage done by Neoliberalism though. Its a global plague, you and the brits unleashed it, but we ALL have to deal with the fallout.
I like Scotty. He's a good lad. Paul needs to check his ego ASAP because he's VERY quickly slipping into "stubborn old man" territory which all of us will have fight back in our futures, else we become useless naggers. TJ is just mad as always but letting it actually get the better of him.
Vaush once again showed that he has the patience of a Saint while being based as always.
Don't grant him that dignity. Hes not an old man. Mentally he's a toddler throwing a tantrum in the grocery store.
@@sypherthe297th2 yea you're probably right. I'm just trying to not burn bridges. Idk if Paul's a tankie or not, but if he's not then he's worth trying to reason with imo
only thing deep fat fried after this debate are my fucking brain cells
18:45 isn't right, people do vote based on some social issues. Republicans are getting hammered, despite Bidens unpopularity, due to abortion rights.
Like Paul (probably the same age) I’m old enough to remember George W. Bush as president and it was a nightmare… but I’d absolutely welcome him today over Trump on a heartbeat. We are literally living in the twilight zone.
Btw Vaush I loved your Rick Sanchez mention towards the heated end. He attended my High School 😅. Oh good one you for being aware beyond your years
Despite all the shenanigans surrounding the 2000 election, there was never any doubt that Bush would step away from the presidency at the end of his second term. Or that he would work to circumvent a clear democratic victory in any election. This is a very different republican party caught in the thrall of cult leader.
Absolute immature behaviour from those guys, expecially the Paulego dude.
I want to see a 1 on 1 with Scotty & Vaush. Those two I believe would make for wonderful discussion.
This was very fulfilling. I used to subscribe to a belief similar to TJ's. It's essentially based on spite, and doesn't move progress forward.
Think about it like this: After Trump beat Hillary in 2016, why did Biden, and not Bernie, get the next Democratic Party nomination? After Trump took office, the Overton Window shifted significantly to the right, which is why topics like Medicare for All are no longer hot topic issues for the American people. If Hillary won in 2016 and 2020, then people would be far more open to discussing topics like Medicare for All, and the rising threat of fascism, while likely still present, would probably be far smaller than it is now.
Not voting for Democrats does not make them move further to the left. It may hurt to vote for people that do not share your political beliefs, but voting for the lesser of two evils is an electoral necessity if you want to actually push for the change you purport to care about.
Biden was the shoo in for 2016 and he would have crushed Trump.
Oh, and Bernie didn't get the Democratic nominee because he's not a Democrat. Why is that so hard for people to figure out? He votes with the Democrats, allows himself to be counted among them, good... refused to be one unless it came with the title of "Mr President". What a prick. Sorry I didn't mean that, Sanders always refuses the big D.
... which makes him a vagina, right?
I think bernie both times moved the democrats to the left not a ton but before him you never saw main stream democrats even give the idea the time of day and biden is being more left leaning than I thought he would
Yeah, is a strange thing - the Democrats can move slightly left on some things and right on others - unions are a hopeful sign
The Supreme Court is the main reason to vote Democratic
We cant accept worse outcomes because we want our options to be better than they are
This is like Vaush arguing with his dad, uncle, and grandfather at Thanksgiving dinner.
More like arguing with a little cousin who is terminally online.
These people are in their late 30s / early 40s, but they have the mindset of a 12yo.
Don't slander Mark like that.
Paul reminds me of me when I was a Jimmy Dore fan.
If you're tired of voting for the lesser evil:
1) Vote against the fascists that are going to take away your vote
2) Pour your energy into ranked choice voting that will make it way easier for non-establisment candidates to win elections
Sorry, pal. In this country voting for the lesser evil and shaming voters into obedience are the only ways we get things done.
@Proambler
Well done!
Remember that voting is a handful of times every 4 years... and is the absolute minimum you should be doing (assuming you can vote).
Organize and be active in your community (things I am still struggling on, but trying to get better with). It ALL STARTS from the bottom.
EVEN IF If West by some miracle got in, he would be the most lame duck president ever because he doesn't have any support from the bottom...
More than likely he will take 1-2% of biden votes and swing a couple key states for trump.
false@@AwkwardPain
@@Thunder103093 Elaborate?
I think the Dylan Burns debate was just as bad. They were unironically making "age equals wisdom" arguments in that one. Hearing any self respecting atheist make that argument? Unbelievable.
no I think he was making an 'experience in relevant topics for years equals wisdom' argument
@@NoOne-hg1qc But if they are making that argument, they still lose cause Dylan has on the ground reporting experience, where as their experience is just yelling at the computer screen. That's like saying, "I have 15 years in computer science, but you only have 5 years in plumbing. Therefore, I'm a better plumber."
@@dumat100 wait.. what? paulsego or whatever said he actively went out and did canvassing and activism and such .. dealing on the ground with trying to promote political causes. (and then the background their parents had fighting for labor rights and stuff, that clearly rubbed off)
A valid heuristic that is often true in practice (experience = wisdom) becomes a fallacy when it's treated like a law.
@@NoOne-hg1qcyes he USED to. He himself has talked about how different politics is now from when he used to go out and do that. Now he's just sitting his fat ass in a chair jerking off his shitty idea factory he calls a brain with TJ on a podcast. Which is FINE. Just don't call that activism experience.
This has been like listening to an adult explain politics to moody teens and vaush was the youngest person in this discussion
1000%
Ikr.
Paul tried pulling the "i am your elder. Ive done more then you"
@@AlexPerez-tt9ru Paul is definitely the most childish brat on the shortbus.
Moody teenager have the excuse of ignorance. These turds have had a life time to learn this shit and choose to ignore it and grasp at childish ideas instead.
More than anything it comes off as so privileged to believe you don’t have to vote. Like damn, must be really nice to be that privileged to not feel like a president can be the difference between you going to a gas chamber or not.
Easy to bet it all when you have no skin in the game. The worst thing they have to worry about is being nominally left-leaning... something you can just not be anymore if required.
@@lilylute1248tj and paul are bisexual
@@sigmascrubtj and paul are lgbt
Tell every Palestinian/Arab American you know to vote for Biden. How dare they express privilege by sabotaging Biden’s chances of stopping the Fourth Reich.
@@guromenst4416 adjusted to these people have major cis white privilege.
Honestly I don't know how Vaush still has the energy to do these voting debates because they're insufferable every time
Politics is boring but very important, he lives by what he preaches which I respect.
Vaush battled thru those poisonous foul mouthed attacks and kept his cool! His points resonate! The weird critics aren't too far from Vaush politically they're just simple minded. I heard this 3 yrs ago. "Oh...just force Manchin n Sinema to comply. The Senate was 50 to 50. Now, Manchin is threatening to leave dems and run No Labels Party, as a spoiler to help Trump. Vaush was prob not VBNMW during Clinton 90s! Bernie did move dems left and covid pushed Americans to accept big govt. Vaush's defeat Trump, crush fascism plan is THE PLAN. And dems and the public are moving left. The public has followed Bernie left and made it MAINSTREAM. W Trump old, retired, and destroyed, the left move can continue!!! More progressives.
His debates are getting more and more depressing. Not because of his lack of debate skills, but because of the type of people he argues with. They're either mentally unhinged, or just LARP'ing in Paul's case.
@@manuelmialdea5127 Woah woah woah. He never said boring. He said dumb!
@@julesdalli9716 Those kind of debates and people have always been a thing.
This was so depressing to watch. PaulsEgo has regressed so badly over the years into a being of pure spite and 🧂 and he ultimately made this whole exchange insufferable. Scotty seemed like the only one who wanted to ask legitimately fruitful questions to Vaush and everyone else. Paul and TJ just wanted to vent and belittle Vaush’s perspective and act like petulant manchildren when he pushed back against their BS.
but he made his big grandiloquent speech about how he's so hopeful for humanity, Vaush is the REAL doomer. /s
@@benjaminasmus3980 waaaah I guess you're right. We should shove our thumbs up our asses and either passively or actively help things get worse. Because that makes sense. Let's not beat back fascism while working towards reforming the democrats, and instead just bitch and moan about how nothings fair. What a useless ideology. You might as well hold no beliefs about the world at all
@@seanbeers5691Vaush showing signs of hope that things can get better makes him the REAL doomer of course.
yeah, they should cry about it and vote the liberal in instead of Mr I will dismantle democracy. @@benjaminasmus3980
@@benjaminasmus3980 So their answer: Let's give up on choosing who represents us, and choose someone who will obviously lose just in case everyone else decides to do the same exact thing with no organization.
_”You can’t keep appealing to inevitability while hoping for a better future.”_
My God, Vaush is good at this. This kind of sentiment would take me half an hour and several paragraphs to put into words and he did it in a single succinct sentence on the fly.
On the fly while being in front of thousands of people, tip-toeing around the hosts as to not burn bridges, while being off his adhd meds.
Isn't this just projection on his part? Talking as if the next election will automatically be Biden v Trump and then advocating for the lesser-of-two-evils voting strategy one year out from the election sounds a lot like inevitability on his part.
@@llcoolade2003 I mean unless one of them dies will it really be anyone but Trump and Biden
@@llcoolade2003 I mean haven't the dems already announced they aren't doing a primary? Also none of the republicans have shown any ability to overtake trump and his followers are too committed to him, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that we don't have Trump v Biden in 2024 aside from Trump being found ineligible or something thanks to all his current legal trouble (which that likely would not stop his followers from trying to write him in or doing Jan. 6 2.0) or one of both of them dying or unable to continue running.
Very technically you can. If your inevitability *is* the better future. ;)
Nikolai Fiodorov's Humanity Common Cause as example.
"That's a low bar"
"It can be all the way down in hell, but the math doesn't change"
That was like 15 minutes in and the debate was already over
Hearing "you seem agitated :)" after Vaush yells once as a response to being yelled over the entire time, huge red flag for a dishonest participant...
Pretty much how Paul “debates”
Loved that breakdown he had after being told to not be childish. Just a straight meltdown.
@@HumanIsError It was honestly embarrassing. I know he thought it was tough guy flexing, but he just made him look childish. That and his defense for why he wasn't childish as that he had a job haha what a joke
He has an annoying sounding voice, and then for him to yell in that annoying sounding voice is unbearable.
Typical move for some people too dumb to have an argument, they try to posture as if they're the ones who are cool and above it all after they say some shitty kneejerk thing.
Vaush killed this debate completely! Paul got so mad cause he couldnt make an actual argument against what Vaush was saying.
Vaush’s argument- vote blue now; and push socialist policy always; convince moderates to vote socialist
Pauls argument- dont vote until socialist policy is passed.
Pauls take is so unrealistic.
This comment is so underrated
Paul is always getting the argument wrong 😂
And he claimed he was using different arguments the whole time on several occassions.
Eventually, he said you need to use the vote threat to get policy changes, which makes more sense, but really only gives leverage in primaries.
If you vote for Genocidin Biden you are proving there is absolutely no line dems can cross that will make you change your mind
That makes no sense tho, how do you push anything if you can’t provide leverage and will vote on them
Streamer logic: if I cannot have a 100% socialist paradise right now we should allow a fascist theocracy into power.
Biden is carrying out a fascist genocide in Palestine RIGHT NOW. I guess that doesn’t matter to you because the victims aren’t American? It’s hilarious how some idiots breaking into the capitol is fascism but a fascist genocide of Palestinians apparently isn’t?
Yep.. "I'll show those Democrats" 🙄
Enabling a trans Genocide will show those democrats we’re not to be taken lightly 😎
But if people see how bad fascist theocracy is, they'll totally revolt and establish communism. This time it will work, I swear.
It's infuriating
Paul’s entire argument is essentially “why should I bother eating when I’m just gonna be hungry again in a few hours?”
Fr. "Why should i gather equipment and level up when I'll fight the final boss anyway?" Because youll fucking lose as you are now
@@echiko4932souls level 1 players in shambles
@@echiko4932 dude don't talk shit about my Elden Ring play through, I worked very hard on those 5 hours beating Margit
Paul is always hungry tho
It's more like "why should I let other people eat when they're just gonna be hungry again in a few hours?"
Paul's behavior during the debate is genuinely embarrassing
Yeah. What gets to me most is that I know if any right-winger lost their shit due to a joke-comment like "manage your finances better," he would be angry that they weren't addressing the substance through the shit-talk.
He always sounds whiney, like he's on the verge of tears.
@@blackhabits6408yeah that really prickled me too, it was SO clearly a joke and it was in response to an analogy Paul had made, but the DFF boys and their audience seem to have totally missed that. I don’t get it.
I haven't seen much of him since the original DP lineup days, but every time I do, I do a lot of cringing. Reminds me a lot of unstable people I've gotten into discussions with at bars.
@@AlmightyThagomizerEdgy jokes are only ok when it doesn't offend them. As soon as the joke is on them, they turn into sensitive little babies.
The drunken peasants really lost its charm when I started to notice that pattern.
As a legal worker who works in Immigration, I can state unequivocally that Biden’s policies make my life, and the lives of the people my company hires, significantly better. It reeks of massive privilege to say that there’s no difference between the two administrations.
It's the same thing Vaush was saying about the Pope the other day. Small wins are still wins.
There’s still concentration camps at the border btw
@@benjaminasmus3980 If you are in a Catholic country or Catholic institutions it matters.
@@benjaminasmus3980
"Sure, that magically makes all the catholics non-transphobic."
Don't be asinine. Nobody made that claim.
@@benjaminasmus3980 Ah yes, Catholics are famous for not being submissive dogmatic followers.......
South Park and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
You literally just blamed a comedy TV show for the current state of politics. I think you need to touch grass.
What a weird comment
My take on this is I'm not voting for Biden, I'm voting against Republicans. That's what we need to do, even if we might not like it
You are voting against Republicans by voting for Biden.
It is how it is.
You’re voting for genocide and censuring civil rights advocates.
The Democratic Party HATES us. Hakeem Jeffries is on record calling for “enlightened bipartisanship” while unequivocally supporting the ethnic cleansing of 2 million people. They tolerate Republicans far more than progressives.
Thank you. If you don't like Biden, go ahead vote against him during the primaries. But please please please vote for the democratic nominee no matter who.
For a victory, yes. No reservation here though. Biden has been a good steward.
It's the most obvious choice ever
"I reject this politics of defeatism" says the guy who advocates not voting.
He's trying to spin the table around, because he has been rightfully called a doomer for years and he's getting annoyed with how it sticks, so he's changing his angle. "Nuh uh, YOU'RE the real doomers!" Insisting that voting matters and playing the cards you're dealt instead of quitting the game, yes, very nihilistic doomer mindset...
clearly we need to lose harder in order to win
Paul advocates a "no confidence vote" which isn't the same as not voting.
@@caseyaulbach7693 there is no no confidence vote from the public in US
@@nerag7459I mean its working for republicans the losing i mean
The fact that people are willing to play Russian roulette with the country is insane.
Well it's like TJ said, if he took a magic pill so he couldn't know who was in charge, his life would not fundamentally change. He's not in a vulnerable marginalized position in society no matter who wins things will essentially be the same for him.
Do you understand why 80 million Americans don’t vote?
Well sometimes it’s better to draw of the bandaid than waiting for it to become better or possibly worse
@@inteallsviktigt People always love to shit on bandaid solutions... when shit like bandaids literally have saved numerous lives over the years by doing something as simple as making it harder for cuts and scrapes to get infected... no one would say that you should stop bothering with bandaids just because the worst off of patients are in need of complicated surgeries in order to stave off an untimely death. You'll have a lot more time and resources to do those complicated surgeries with if patients aren't coming in with infected cuts and scrapes that could have been prevented via simple hygiene and piece of fabric with adhesive on it and depending on how bad those infections get what was initially a minor scrape could turn into having to amputate a gangrenous limb.
@@donovan4222 Yes, you think I'm not sick of how much of a inhumane mess politics is? Since I was a kid it's been obvious, this shit is reprehensible and soul crushing to anyone who actually cares about society progressing and not inflicting harm on there fellow humans, but if my vote meant nothing why the fuck do right wing political parties push for laws that make it harder for people like me to vote? Why would they even care to raise the voting age? Why do they feel the need to even sow doubt as to the veracity of any election they don't win? Power is a disgusting thing that perverts and twists us all, while power is this centralized into the hands of a few it will continue to be so in a very gross fashion... we can either erode that using the nonviolent tools of the state, or we can try and seize the violent tools of the state and hope that where one of the few violent revolutionary movements that isn't being headed by a deeply hippocritical bloodthirsty dickhead and that we also have enough of an advantage to not get crushed by the most powerful military and most powerful propoganda machine ever fucking created. If it was just my life I was betting I might be gung ho about the slight chance that it would succeed... but I'm gambling with so many more lives than just my own including the lives of those who aren't even involved and are just minding there own business whom will instantly become perfect targets for indoctrination by said propoganda machine I am now fighting against because my recklessness did legit make the world more dangerous for them and my protests will just come as me saying "look what you made me do." Any form of politics that isn't just a succession of stubborn bloodthirsty assholes couping each other is built on compromise, a decent percentage of people have beliefs all of us here find reprehensible, they have just as much right to engage with a political system that even has a semblance of fairness as we do. We are winning the culture war, more and more people agree with us hence why right wingers are desperate enough to just want to resort to having a god king step in and take all of our decision making power away. We got to this point where It's even legal for me to exist by choosing the lesser of the evils so that when people marched on the streets or started throwing bricks at cops who where dragging them away for the crime of being attracted to people with the same genitalia as them there would be people on the inside making sure that actually gets translated into new laws and the abolishing of the ones that made me so much as existing a fucking crime. What happens to that pro union bill that gives so much fricken leverage to those forming unions the instant a Republican is in office? What happens if another supreme court justice dies and there in power to replace them? How can there even be a fair election if even more courts across the country are run by Trumps lapdogs and they go along with throwing away the ballots of those who didn't vote for him? Are we gonna convince the party that openly decries democracy and that thinks having a godking is a good idea to allow for the introduction of legislation that actually makes voting for a third party viable?
"Is Joe Biden at least 60% or less Hitler compared to trump?"
"Idk I'd have to think about it" is a fucking insane answer
It's a red flag. I don't trust these people.
Not really, Biden has more blood on his hands than Trump after the genocide he is carrying out in Israel.
So you agree he is less Hitler than Trump? But you won't vote for Biden to try and prevent more Hitler from winning?
Help me understand why less Hitler is as bad as more Hitler!
It's a copout, because he knows he's wrong but can't admit it. Gotta save face
@cosmosofinfinity yeah he can't accept that, the cognitive dissonance is too much.
Vaush is straight up scolding these guys like they didn’t study for their math test and got a D- 💀💀💀
Giving big "The average score was 36." Energy
They didn’t study
The horse D even.
They clearly didn't. If the Greedy Old Perverts win next year, they will implement Project 2025, and our republic will be dead. Leftists will probably be rounded up at that point. Then what will they do?
Rightly so, their arguments were retarded and their actions extremely damaging to our future.
pretty insane to not vote anti-Trump in 2024, like legit insanity
Trump 2024, can't wait when he wins.
So, only a Biden vote is "anti-Trump?" Voting for the Socialist party candidate isn't an "anti-Trump" vote? How does that make logical sense?
this is why were doomed
Pretty insane to care this much when Biden’s carrying out a genocide
and thats the problem. biden will lose becuase of it
I've been watching Vaush from basically day one (and before, aka IrishLaddie) and I honestly think this debate is among his absolute best. He painstakingly lays out how absurd and frankly privileged TJ and Paul's positions are. Ultimately, I'd like to thank Vaush for fighting so vociferously for the ideals of democracy and humanism.
Underrated comment
Well as someone who's watched both since their inception. (Well technically 2010 for tj). Vaush is right and Paul always takes the damn argument from tj always and makes the most retarded takes while tj says minimal shit. Tj would probably side with vaush if Paul wasn't his like best friend, even Scotty is prone to not talking as much as Paul. It's honestly annoying I wish tj came alone
This topic is life or death to him. If not for his life or death personally, then for the life or death of many people he considers friends, and his followers.
I remember a video ages ago where he voiced concern in a way that got me crying over fans in Florida of his that he was scared that some regulars in his chat from Florida would just disappear cause of those trans laws. He named one or two iirc.
Like he cares a lot more than people realize about his community, and about marginalized people in general. He gets so much shit for minor missteps (if they're even missteps at all) from the left despite being one of the most passionate people fighting for those ideas and people in the best ways he can.
Vaush is so good at defending Genocidin with Biden
Agreed. I'm Paul's age range and that giy is a disappointment. He needs to learnt hat if he isn't willing to maintain the cause he needs to get out fo the way and let the next generation do it. He isn't giving meaningful advice he is just trying to spread misery without understanding who it will affect. I'm Indigenous Mexican. Several of the people I know are DACA, individuals that, under Trump, were under threat of unjust deportation. But clearly, Biden and the Dems are just as bad as the GOP right? All those thongs he called Vaush(who isn't perfect) he needs to understand he is being. He seems to think he has a right to appeal to the sense of working class mentality while being willing to throw people like me under the bus. That guy can "vete a la mierda". The best thing he can do is fade into obscurity.
This debate is easily solved with one fact... I can name 100 meaningful ways Biden is better than Trump, but nobody can name a single meaningful way that Trump is better than Biden.
WW3?
@@NitwitsWorld?? You mean the issue trump is worse on when he tried to start shit with Iran?
If Trump gets elected, we get WWIII. What's worse is, we would be the bad guys when he sides with the worldwide authoritarian right.
@@NitwitsWorld World War 3 would be more likely to happen if Trump was president
@@lukash3284 (1) Trump is senile. (2) Trump is intentionally corrupt and evil when not being senile. There you go.
The idea that we LITERALLY did this election THREE YEARS AGO and there are people who are saying “don’t vote for biden” is just fucking ridiculous
that's the thing I don't understand, we literally already did this song and dance. people whined about Hillary, we got Trump hell for 4 years, then we got fucking Biden which these same people are complaining about, abstaining or throwing your vote away in 2016 did not get us socialist daddy in 2020, what makes anyone think doing it again is going to get a more radical candidate in 2028? especially if trump wins again assuming we still have a democracy in 2028 it's probably MORE likely that we get another corporate moderate neolib in 2028.
Biden or Dieden. It sucks, but that's where America's at, eh?
Paul is stuck in his ways man
@@FelisImpurratorthat’s the reality
Genocidin’ with Biden
As a trans woman, one party is likely to take away my rights and access to HRT meds, and the other one isn't. My choice is pretty obvious. It takes an immense amount of privilege and/or lack of self-awareness to not realize how important these outcomes actually are to so many people. Voting isn't about making yourself feel good. It's about harm-reduction
And his fallback of "Trans people are more impoverished than most, so improving their material conditions will help them" is just pointless when Repubs are trying to *take away our right to access health care.* Like dude, I know you've staked your hopes on some third party rising like a phoenix to brush away Dem complacency and defeat Donald Trump, but I don't think my fellow trans folk can afford to bet on a one in a million chance here on the off-chance that our material circumstances improve. I'd rather be impoverished with legal access to treatment than impoverished and having to flee my goddamn state/country because I can't legally access health care or even walk about as myself in public.
EXACTLY! THANK YOU! These fucking - sorry to get all liberal but - white, cis men have no idea how privileged they are to feel they even get a fucking choice in this matter. LGBT people like myself (a gay trans man) do NOT get the right to sit on their high horse and choose who they consider “worthy” of their vote. This shit is literally life or death for a large portion of the voter base and it’s not in the least bit surprising to me that it’s the loud, white, cis, probably straight or straight-passing men on the “left” who think they have the right to choose outcomes that will SEVERELY effect minority communities, while continuously arguing that they’re doing this on their behalf. If they were genuinely able to look past their privilege for one moment, they would come to the conclusion that voting for the lesser evil is in fact *the* correct choice if you want to actually advocate for minority rights. Minorities do not have the privilege to choose in these questions. They do not understand the privilege they hold to even sit here and discuss this in the first place, and it’s honestly fucking disgusting to me that these people consider themselves the arbiters of correct political thought and minority rights. They should take some time out of their schedules to actually listen to what we, the people who will be the most severely affected by their advocacy for these issues, think would be the correct thing to do.
Came here to say this 😔 im legit terrified.
Absolutely. This whole thing of people saying they won't vote blue has been terrifying to see, and it's also always the most privileged people. It's so frustrating to see people not care about trans people if it means feeling bad about themselves morally. Like okay, you say you care and you support us, but you don't really.. idk
It's caused trans ppl I know to have such depression.. I wish people would care more. But they're privileged, and it won't effect them the way it will us, so they dont care.
Get shreked n00b
Saw this live. My favorite part was where they wanted Biden to weaponize the FBI to blackmail congress into supporting his agenda. Solid political discourse. A+
I mean let's be real, it would be dope if a fucking Democrat did that for once
@@billiecruz4399 its illegal thats why they don't do it
That would actually be pretty based
@@luke-be8yw because destroying your own viability is based. idiot take
They acted like that was some sort of effective strategy for trump when his crookedness was literally why people showed up in record numbers to vote him out (and it’s all coming back to bite him in the ass now too)🤦🏻♀️
I could not believe when they were unironically arguing for fascisistic weaponization of government agencies to strongarm political opposition. Opening that particular Pandora's Box would be so unbelievably shortsighted that I was dumbfounded they couldn't see how stupid an idea it would be.
Fascism is when the government stops fascism
Guess you hate Medicare then cause that was the result.
And love slavery.
@@credman That's a blatant lie. The turning point for LBJ getting Medicare passed was winning the 1964 election in a landslide. This allowed Democrats to replace Republicans that had been on the relevant committees, stopping them from preventing it coming up for a vote. Don't try to gaslight everyone into thinking your authoritarian ideas have yielded good results in the past.
@@credmanso was AOC's vote to fund the Iron Dome. DFF says they want party leaders to use strong arm politics for their beliefs. Then they do so to do ghoulish shit and they shocked pikachu face. As if this wasn't exactly what Vaush and the OP commentor was talking about.
Voting for Biden is like doing the dishes. You may hate it, but it's necessary to stop a worse outcome.
Uuh but people invented dishwashers because they didn't want to wash their dishes! Therefore the logical position was always to eat on plates covered in rotten remains of old food while complaining about dirty dishes until someone finally frees us from the dishopoly.
While Biden has done some good stuff, I still don't like him- I don't like most politicians. But the fact of the matter is, against people who are planning Project 2024 and trying to undermine the constitution, the obvious choice in a president would be the candidate that is not going to that. Lesser of two evils voting is the way it's always been, it's just that younger people seem to be realizing how much BS it is more than previous generations have before. It's an unfortunate fact that there will probably not be a popular president that's significantly more progressive than our current democrats, at least for a long while. So we have to work with what we got.
I'd bet my fucking life there is a tower of dishes in Pauls sink.
A worse outcome than carrying out a fascist genocide in Palestine like Biden is?
they WONT, ret@rd. clean the dishes.@@benjaminasmus3980
The issue is that they believe that not voting is equal to not eating shit.
They forgot the part where they'll lose. This strategy is suicidal.
Biggest lifehack right here, the rule of law, the economy, social views, crime rates, hate crimes, etc. don't apply to you or affect you if you don't vote.
THIS. It's the part of the argument they just absolutely refuse to accept. They have to deal with the results either way. Them and 300 million other Americans.
You can eat shit, you can eat chocolate covered shit, or you can starve and they dont realize that theyll starve
No, it's worse than that! If you want to starve you have to vote for starvation.
They don't vote.
That means they're going to eat shit.
And they're going to push people towards eating more and more shit.
And they think think we're lame!
They think we're lame for trying to reduce the amount of shit we have to eat!
@@richardsbiggestfan4861
@@richardsbiggestfan4861it's more like willingly eating shit vs having it forcefed
Paul is the direct result of what 20 years of South Park can do to someone who has zero media literacy.
Yeah. I watched the whole thing last year and while I enjoyed it there was this thought on the back of my head telling me:
"Man this attitude towards politics is so infantile"
@@manuelmialdea5127 it's incredible how Always Sunny does this same exact humor but better.
it was kind of true back then pretty sure vaush even pointed this out in the debate. clinton was a turd, kerry was a turd, bush was a turd. but the stakes have been raised and this dynamic no longer applies and lots of people fail to see it.
@@manuelmialdea5127 Yeah, but don't forget, Paul didn't have a pool when growing up!
South Park is much better these days; almost everything is directly mocking reactionaries
Imagine being 45 and acting like that, he acts like he’s the only person to fucking work. Congratulations same with all of us dawg.
Vaush really hits the nail on the head here.
The time for activism is NOT on election day. That's comes years earlier.
Election day is for securing a better future with the choices your actions have enabled.
Pretending like your vote is a form of activism in this way is some of the most cringe slacktivism I've ever heard of, especially with how Paul pretends like it's such a pious thing to do. Fucking embarrassing.
This is such a copium lie. The election is still one year away, candidates like Marianne and Cornel have been challenging Biden for months, not a peep of support from Vaush. Vaush would oppose any outside challenge to the Democratic Party regardless of when the candidate/movement started.
You claim “activism is not on Election Day” ok then when have you or Vaush taken any steps to challenge the liberal Democratic Party’s genocidal leadership in the last 4 years? Months after Biden was elected Vaush already stopped talking about the concentration camps at the border and acted like they were improved now.
I’m pretty sure that most of the greatest political revolutions of all time came from people rejecting what’s given to them rather than accepting it forever.
its funny because if you ask them what their votes actually did, as a statement, none of them can give you a real answer
All that not voting and allowing the GOP to win would do is tell the Democrats that being more right-wing is what will win them the votes. They won't look at the demographics of those who didn't vote, because so much of the country already doesn't vote, they will focus on the demographics that did.
That...or even worse...the lack of a vote.
Especially in accordance with the current genocide against Palestinians, the amount of people who unironically believe withholding their vote (just to get Brandon to spew empty platitudes against Israel) is astounding to me.
This disgusts me because we tried this in 2016 with Bernie and bust. The left leaning voting turnout was abysmal in 2016 compared to 2012 and earlier. And what happened in 4 years:
- the Supreme Court was lost for a generation leading to the loss of abortion rights, stripping of LGBTQ rights, stripping of voter protection rights, stripping of labor rights.
- 1 million Americans died from COVID
- economy is shattered because of trumps tax cuts
- record profits for corporations
- privacy rules on the internet was obliterated by trumps FCC chair
- labor unions took a massive hit leading to a huge delay for Amazon and Starbucks workers getting protections
- a huge hit to the movement for ranked choice voting because of the threat of democracy
- multiple near wars started by trumps fight with Iran
- obliteration of us trust in international stage
- obliteration of US manufacturing that was starting to recover
- obliteration of EPA regulations
-half on movements to improve public employee pay
- obliteration of postal service spiking delivery costs
And so much more with one failure to vote blue.
Thanks for reminding me, I have blocked those years from my memory.
And what happened since 2020?
-Biden is carrying out a fascist genocide in Israel
-Biden has the same position on the Iran deal as trump
-Biden suspended Afghan assets leading to starvation for millions
-Biden continued the US backed genocide in Yemen
-COVID death rates have not changed because Biden changed nothing
- Biden approved a record number of oil drilling permits
-Biden kept trumps title 42 immigration policy in place for 3 years, and his new policy is even tougher to get asylum.
-Military budget increased again
- still concentration camps at the border with border patrol running rampant
Sad that Paul not only doesn't care about the gains during Biden, but doesn't place much import on the losses during Trump either. Which makes me wonder why he wastes his time and energy following politics at all. It's just energy down the drain, especially since he's putting all his hopes in the always abjectly pointless third party. Vaush provides a flawed solution, Paul provides NO solution; grim practical reality versus desperate clean conscience fantasy.
In this system, it is hard to create, and easy to destroy. He gives Biden grief because he didn't pass the low bar with every dream agenda done to his satisfaction in this endlessly stacked against you political system operating with half the Congress tied behind his back at a minimum, so make way for Trump to rip everything apart and set us back decades again. All because Paul can't swallow his pride to make one unpleasant yet still very black-and-white practical decision of the longterm health/survival of the country
Not to mention the way the 2020 Census was handled. Also, the fallout from Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico.
One failure to vote blue?
The fuck do you mean> Blue won by 3 million in 2016.
But yeah, Bernie voters are the problem, and not the electorate formed almost three fucking centuries ago to keep everyone but rich white men from having opinions.
If you want to "hold Democrats accountable," you actually bother to show up to vote, you write letters and make calls; and whenever possible, you find a primary opponent to get those people out. You don't check out for 3 1/2 years and then complain that you don't get what you want.
Checking out for 3 and 1/2 years is what most Biden voters do….if there was more organizing around direct action than voting things might actually change
@@donovan4222 They don't realize that it's their insistence on voting being the most important political action a person can do that contributes to people checking out for 3 1/2 years. People who don't vote are always saying to engage in organizing and direct action but this community would then scoff at them.
@@Vizardog Okay, I'll just ignore that you're responding to one of the biggest tankie trolls on this channel and go to the meat of your argument.
Voting is the thing that sets everything else up that you do in politics. It is the equivalent of putting up a wall and saying that it is stupid to put a board behind the plywood every 16 inches. That wall isn't staying up without the foundation backing it up.
An example of this in action. I ran for the state legislature in 2006 when I still lived in West Virginia. At the time, both houses were overwhelmingly Democratic (going into the election, the House of Delegates [which I ran for] was 68-32, and the state senate was 23-11), but the pro-choice people couldn't get a thing that they wanted on reproductive rights. One of the incumbents lamented out loud about it in a meeting with candidates. Well, a big reason why they couldn't is because the pro-choice group, WV Free, was a 501(c)(3) and couldn't contribute to candidates, while West Virginians for Life was a PAC and freely gave to members of both parties. I asked one of the top people in WV Free about it, and she said that they can raise more money as a non-profit because "people want the tax deduction." Well, if they had friendly legislators to lobby to, _just maybe_ they would have had better results, and abortion would still be legal in the Mountain State. But do tell how organizing without voting will make things better.
I will primary them. I will primary any pro-Israel politician I have the option to primary. I won't elect any pro-Israel politicians. If dems want to beat the GOP they better be prepared to compromise.
@@wvu05 What does your assessment of them being a "tankie troll" have to do with anything?
Voting doesn't set anything up for the average person's engagement with politics. It can set up a candidate with their career in politics and, at best, maybe introduce a candidate more amenable to your advocacy if you're an activist, but for the average layman, it most often doesn't "set something up" for you.
I notice you've convinced yourself that the point being made was "organize and never vote." I'd recommend you re-read the comments you're replying to because you've missed the meat of the argument despite claiming to address it. You don't address how voting alone prevents people from checking out of politics. It's the organizing that keeps people "checked in."
Lastly, in your anecdote, the issue you highlight was funding. As you said, the state legislature was ALREADY overwhelmingly Democratic, which means ostensibly, they had put in favorable legislators to their cause. But they did not have the money to out-compete the other group and that money doesn't come from the ballot box. How does this even support your point? How did you type that and then conclude that it failed because they didn't vote? If anything, you're articulating the futility of voting for Dems and expecting change without more successful organizing outside of the ballot box.
“Faking calm after freaking out when I called you a kid isn’t gonna make people forget about the earlier part.”
Damn son… I’m surprised he didn’t lose his mind over that jab
That was pure hatred man, I dont think ive ever seen vaush be that overtly vitriolic unless its a rightoid who is unironically evil. Kinda a shame cuz everyone else was pretty much civil. Vaush just spent 3 hours burning bridges for no benefit whatsoever
Well it took him like 30 seconds to lose his mind after that
I watch their streams and holy shit they’re still crying over this. Guys learn to take the L
What time did he say that? I dozed off while he was freaking out.
Scotty is a gigachad for just sitting here calmly for 3 hours and sometimes jumping in to just back up Vaush slightly lmao
Scotty is the true winner of this debate lets be honest
We love Scotty, I was surprised that he tended to side with vaush
I always felt Scotty was unfairly maligned by the community back in the old DP days
@@cypress2647Scotty wins every debate by just not participating 😂
@@andrewshotathompson5116 It was because he bullied Paul so much. I'm still unsure if all that was acting or not. I know a lot of DP drama was staged, like the piss throwing. Scotty has his moments, but my 'problem' with Scotty now during DFF is that he usually just repeats what TJ and Paul say, or he says things that are just "No shit Sherlock" and takes way longer to say it than necessary (repeats himself). And while Scotty can be very funny, he still isn't as funny as Paul and TJ. They feel like natural speakers and entertainers while Scotty feels more like a normal guy, but that's also part of his charm and why he is needed for the trio dynamic of the show. I still like that he's the centrist on the show while Paul is a full on communist and TJ is getting there.
My favorite part was when the angry man-baby said,"if Biden does 1 good thing I'd vote for him" and you mention the union stuff that he already agreed was a good thing and he immediately move the goalposts and started equivocating. It's the exact same thing people arguing from pure emotions do all the time which is why they rarely have actual policies or opinions beyond "I feel"
To be fair, I think he more meant if Biden does one good thing that helps me in a more immediate & tangible way; the union victories feel more like future promises right now to many. But objectively he did move the goalposts there.
Paul's entire argument against Biden is "well I've never heard about anything good he's done". I'd love to see him debate Dylan Burns just so that Dylan can spend 4 hours straight listing off actual real legislation Biden has got passed.. but of course Paul will just sit there getting his ass forcibly educated and he'll immediately pivot to endless new issues that are of pressing concern. He'll have Biden's entire legislative history forcibly injected into his ears and then act as though Biden is basically Trump because no $15 minimum wage.
How comforting that Biden will help Americans have slightly better jobs while he carries out genocide all over the Middle East.
Paul's Ego is despicable. Who does he think will actually take him seriously after that unhinged meltdown? Good job advocating for workers. If only he had as much passion getting off his ass and walking the walk 🙄
Can confirm, he does
His name is very ironic
as someone who used to quite enjoy drunken peasants back in my more foolish youth, it’s clear to see paul has backslid into his hopelessness. like the dude is seriously depressed and can’t confront his own apathy
@@UberPlaysGames he is the worst part of the show due to his insane bias infesting everything
None of these guys will ever do anything to help progress their world views other than whining online about them.
"If Biden did one good thing I'd vote for him"
"OK here's a couple things"
"Yeah those were good but still 98% chance I wouldn't vote for him"
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
The ego of these guys. They can’t fathom a cause that is greater than them and will take literally longer than their lifetimes to show it’s fruits. This is childish behavior.
"But I want perfection now! Waaah!"
They think democracy is a given.
I used to think that all the time debating people like that in comment sections - infantile, magical thinking
The ego of Biden. Rolling the dice of fascism just to cement his legacy as a two-term president before he kicks the can. Also to further serve his corporate donors. I will not vote for Genocide Jim Crow Joe. Blackrock Biden doesn't get my vote.
It's because they are pampered ponces. As much as TJ tried desperately to nail himself to a cross he hasn't faced the same ahit as those who are effected by the shit policies of conservative politicians.
He doesn't have to worry about abortion, being being a single mother dealing with getting their family fed or go to a decent school.
The list goes on.
He gets to fold his arms and whine LIKE a TODDLER and act indignant over it because he won't be effected for a long time. Which as a side note, I wish they did more of these in person. If you're going to act like that you need to be abke to literally fight. Or shut up and use your brain
I remember when I thought it didn't matter who won and voted 3rd party.
6 years later, Roe V. Wade was overturned. It did matter. Vote Blue.
do you think the dems had anything to do with roe v wade being overturned? do you think that they take any responsibility in the state that the republican party is in today? or do you blame nonvoters for the reason that republicans are so powerful? (dont blame the dems - who share many of the same donors as republicans, and help the republican party get wealthier all the time, blame nonvoters. right? and bernie was the reason hillary lost back in 2016, right?)
@@kingobama4305 I blame 3 appointed Republican Justices for that outcome.
I think you misunderstand my statement.
@@J0E64 yes, the republican justices did that. but republicans dont do things in a vacuum. the dems are a large reason why the republicans have the power they do. if the dems were more confrontational, and didnt have many of the same donors that republicans do, those justices might've not been appointed in the first place. but because dems are fascist enablers, they've allowed many republican victories.
@@kingobama4305 I hold Republicans primarily responsible for their actions. The point of this video and my response is that what we can do as individuals is to limit the power of Fascists by voting directly against them.
Roe V Wade being overturned has everything to do with Liberals not codefying it into law the MULTIPLE times they held majories in the house and senate under Obama. It also has everything to do with RBG NOT dropping her ego and retiring when she had the chance and dying during Trump's Presidency.
"If Joe Biden did *one fucking thing* that I was actually impressed by, then I'd vote for him"
Vaush proceeds to list 2 things
"That got him a little bit of the way there"
I guess he wants Biden to suddenly become a socialist out of thin air for that *one thing* to happen. Jeez man.
He himself even mentioned earlier that he was impressed with Biden's union thingy 😭
At that point it was so clear he is just being a disingenuous hack. This is all spite politics to them, cuz they are privileged enough to not be negatively affected by the outcomes.
@@Khalkarayeah he feels like one of those guys that isn’t really opposed to fascism by its very nature but is just angry that the fascists don’t do the things he wants
@@Khalkarait’s called “out of touch”
The working class in California has all but been forgotten about. 😂 the working class in Californian is the bogey man Hess people prop up to sell democrats. Really disgraceful
@@frankwest5388you're talking about disingenuous but you say shit like that lol Vaush fans are horrible. Quit pretending to be Socialists and admit you're Democrats
TJ and Paul are even getting obliterated in the comment section of DFFs video… even their audience knows vaush won.
Vaush: If Republicans win, they will kill us, we won’t get another chance
TJ: How likely do you really believe that is?
I hope that moment is replayed to TJ when he’s grabbed by the beard and up against the wall, just before he hears the gun cock and his brains get blown out
I deeply respect Vaush's commitment to civility in the face of overwhelming asshattery.
Really shows how childish Paul and TJ are when they've got nothing but grandstanding and insisting violent posturing would fix the entire political system. It's pathetic.
I think he did well, but would you really call him civil? He was calm, but he wasn't exactly polite. Even title of this video is an insult.
@@fjordojusticefr scotti said like 2 things how was it a 3v1 debate.
Saint like patience, supported America's second Catholic president, and recent praise for the pope? Have you ever considered TJ might be pulling the wool over our eyes with his pretend endorsement of radical reddit atheism?
@@zebedeehadden456 irrelevant, and some form of clickbait is normal anyway
I endured this on stream. This was bad for my heart condition. These are exactly the type of people who have made me believe the Online Left is utterly useless. The guy in the shades was alright, I will say that. As for the other two, especially the loudmouth Paul, I question their Left credentials, and this video demonstrates all kinds of reasons for that. How many sullen Republican voters have I known in my life who sound just like Paul. Too many.
Waaaaay too fucking many
it's neutered progressivism by way of smug contrarianism
@@hardlyworking_ That's really well put.
I can't tell the difference between them. They all have the exact same voice
He literally has his name on screen idiot
This debate in a nutshell: Don't you think "me" saying I wouldn't vote for Biden will cause a massive change in his politics?
Holy shit these idiots are priviledged.
The media would say he lost because he was too far left, and the democrats would move to the right again.
FOR REAL
seeing them talk about aoc is so infuriating just a bunch of privileged white men whining
"Do you really think *_I,_* with my thousands of followers spread out across the country in various states where the vote might become tight, throwing away my vote and yelling at that audience to do the same? Don't be silly!!!!!! I'm nobody!!!1!!!1!!"
Your listening comprehension is abysmal. Accepting the status quo to the day you die and refusing to understand how the duopoly works in tandem to undermine the working class to shrink their quality of life generation after generation is not a resolve. That is the very concept of settling for less to an absurd degree
It’s amazing to me how a man who claims to have done backbreaking manual labor (even on the weekends), but who now sits in a chair and spews his opinion for a living, can say say that things haven’t gotten ANY better at all… When clearly, they did for for him.
Yooooo, that’s actually a REALLY good point and (deceptively?) a muuuch deeper hit than just a good little snipe at some light attitudinal hypocrisy on Paul’s part.
Long-ass explanation:
I seriously don’t mean to malign him excessively here, but I think the only way you can maintain mental consistency given those beliefs and those experiences (i.e., avoid the cognitive dissonance) is if you’ve ALSO at least partially bought into the _very conservative_ myth of pure and perfect meritocracy for yourself: the notion that (most or all of) the good that has come to you was (mostly or fully) earned through your own keen judgment and personal character and hard work alone-effectively disregarding ANY existing circumstances or outside factors-and therefore was essentially just natural and deserved.
In other words: your life may have improved, but it was solely due to your traits/decisions/actions, and not because of anything to do with the system you’re in, and therefore, crucially, it _doesn’t count_ as data that might indicate the existence of any positive aspects of our society right now, or any types of privilege at play in your favour.
I mean, it’s either the above perception of how the world works, OR, you have to constantly lie to yourself (and everyone else) that your life is fundamentally no better and you’re still more-or-less baaasically every bit as much of a beleaguered underdog as you were before. (Remember he consistently framed his arguments from the perspective of “Things are so bad for so many people, I’m the proof!” and not “I’m an exception here, but look at how bad things are for so many other people!”) And frankly, I don’t think Paul would do that...? I don’t think that he’s dishonest or disingenuous or ill-intentioned or self-deluded in this way.
OR, third and final option, possibly, I suppose: His time spent as an online content creator has genuinely been less rewarding than the labour he was doing previously, which… well, if true, then (insofar as anything can be said to be the workers’ fault under late-stage capitalism) I think that’s kind-of on him, yeah??
I can’t stress enough that I’m not trying to make a personal attack out of this; it just happens to highlight a central fallacy that you need as an underlying pillar to hold a large handful of the other beliefs he conveyed in this conversation.
I sincerely empathize with the huge tangle of messy emotions he displayed here, and I’m pretty inclined to say that _everyone should._ Doesn’t make him correct, though!!! I seriously wish I had a less heavy-handed, clinical-sounding, pseudo-academic, sensationalist name for it, but for lack of a better description (seriously), all of those feelings sound like the product of… like… a form of generational proletarian trauma. Again, very unsatisfied with the term I’ve come up with but I guess that’s on me. Hahaha.
@@deadfr0gI don’t have much else to add other than that this was a good analysis, very nice points here!
Ill give this a thumbs up, and a Rock and Stone!⛏💪Good Stuff! @@deadfr0g
the pot fried his prefrontal cortex
not allowing him to make that connection
@@deadfr0g or he had an element of luck involved... How do you gloss over something so key? The argument that because Paul's career is now better than in the past it can only be that general circumstances in the country are better is complete and utter non sequitur.
"They're not gonna lose forever"
Yeah, the answer to that isn't to lose now, though... That's stupid.
TJ disappointed me more in this debate than he ever has. I don’t know how you could arrive at the right position and then regress. And then to not even have cogent logic backing it up? Embarrassing
TJ used to say some pretty vile shit back in his anti SJW days. I don't think he topped that here.
@BJSepuku that doesn't really equal disappointment though
@@BJSepuku
I was a teenaged edgelord back then. Those videos didn’t disappoint me at the time.
I would hope that we all get smarter with our decisions and more knowledgeable. But with tj it’s like, He abandoned anti-sjw shit, he was convinced to vote blue in 2020, he distanced himself from old, less nuanced takes.
And then out of nowhere he’s back to anti electoralism.
I’m not disappointed in vile shit, I’m disgusted by vile shit, and eager to see growth.
I’m disappointed in regression.
@@trevor5666 He's said that this topic is something he goes back and forth on each election. I like TJ, I've been a fan of his for over a decade now but he's not a consistent person. His first recent video on the Israel/Gaza situation was basically "who cares, it's just a bunch of stupid muslims and stupid jews" which was incredibly dumb as he has done good coverage of this issue for years even if it was never a focal point for his channel, yet since that video he has made multiple videos on the issue where he knocks it out of the park. I don't think he's a grifter or anything, just how much he cares about any given issue seems to depend on what side of the bed he gets up from in the morning.
@@trevor5666 yeah fair, makes sense. I knew him way back when, so I was disappointed at the time.
"Everything has turned to shit."
"Yeah, what are you gonna do about it?"
"Well my plan was to sit in my room and feel self-righteous about not voting."
What is Vaush doing about it? He’s sitting in his room talking to his 14 year olds audience about how liberalism is cool actually. Voting for liberals changes absolutely nothing, how do you think Trump got elected in the first place? Russian Facebook memes? You keep talking about how trump is such a huge threat to the world but continue to mindlessly vote for the disease that caused the Trump symptoms in the first place.
what am i going to do about it? i'm going to continue watching the entertaining sh*tshow from afar and enjoy my life the best i can, and stay the heck away from a voting machine. politics has taught me one thing - enjoy the time you have, because there's a bunch of obnoxious politicians who want to take it away. if you can't change the way the world works, then find your way to enjoy it. there's no point in moping.
@@kingobama4305 You are literally speedrunning the "First they came ..." poem again.
@@kingobama4305 dude if you wanna be miserable do it on your own time. but you don't have the right to complain if you didn't even make an effort to make the world a better place to live in.
@@strega0 nah, i'd rather find joy in the world as it is instead of wallowing or worrying about if i can fix it. no need to. got everything i need. any type of fixing is beyond what i am capable of, so lemme just relax and enjoy the ride.
Feel like half their argument goes:
"Yo, you're gonna get your arm cut off."
Them: "So? I already have a papercut."
Exactly this
Threatening to not vote Democrat doesn't make Democrats change their policy to be more left. This is literally demonstrated 20 years ago and beyond.
All it does is allow conservatives to win.
The Democrats don't want the conservatives to win so if they keep winning the Democrats will eventually have to change
I think Vaush brought this up before, "after the democrats lost the presidency three times in a row, we got legendary radical leftist...Bill Clinton." Democrats losing over and over again only pushes the party more and more right.
It was literally demonstrated in 2016. It’s not that long ago.
And then actual tangible policy and appointments drift farther right. It's maddening how many people think handing victories over to Republicans is some sort of deeper progressive game.
It is one of the most idiot beliefs because they are not going to chase your vote but chase the votes against them.
It is amazing how they cannot connect the dots to 2016 and losing SCOTUS. Gee, what happened in 2016? Hey, I am some dipshit streaming white dude who the consequences will not affect.
POTUS is not a king. Vote blue is not just about POTUS. Congress has to be blue, both houses and with the filibuster the Senate has to be far more than 51-49.
I loved the bit about Lincoln. Over simplify much? Geesh. Lincoln only emancipated slavery in belligerent states as per his war powers. He did not in the border slave states. Congress had to vote and pass those amendments and then the states had to ratify them.
Two illuminating examples from early in the debate:
That “eating a frosted turd vs raw turd” from Paul. Vaush says that if he’s forced to choose, he wants the lesser of two evils (aka frosted turd lol). Then Paul’s response is to say that not voting for any “turd” means not eating any of them. It shows that what’s at stake in his mind isn’t the general political outcomes, as long as Paul can pad himself on the shoulder and go “I’m good, I didn’t vote for the neo-cuck” he thinks he isn’t eating shit.
“Voting blue is like delaying a time-bomb” from TJ. Firstly yes, delaying a bomb is good. I thought that their whole schtick was that they wanted to oppose the whole system aka properly “defuse the bomb”. So why don’t they want more time to try and achieve that? Why say it doesn’t matter if the bombs goes off tomorrow? Secondly, they act like letting “the bomb go off” is just a thing that happens and then it’s over? The bomb going off is the beginning. Thirdly, if they really think Dems and Repubs are basically equally bad, then why portray one side winning as a potential “bomb” going off.
There’re obviously more examples you could give, basically everything they said was misframed or just false. All they really offer is just another flavour of anti-intellectualism.
He literally did the South Park thing and then acted confused when Vaush made the comparison.
They're genuinely doing neolib thing of thinking time isn't real and things can't get worse. Like democracy and human rights just kind of magically exist forever and the only real issues are employment rates and gas prices.
If you think democrats are trying to defuse the bomb, you put too much faith in them.
The idea that not voting is even up for debate confounds me. Where does this stance end? Is not voting a viable position for local elections if your choices are just as limited? Do you think that will help or hurt those of us whose healthcare is literally on the line?
I’m just baffled.
I'd like to thank Vaush for doing this debate. I know it was annoying having to talk political realities to people that think grabbing a tire iron is the way to get medicare for all.
@@benjaminasmus3980 If you feel this way you're completely addicted to the news cycle and don't have a grounded perspective. There are lots of ways where people on the ground are living better lives thanks to people engaging in the democratic process.
@@benjaminasmus3980 "At least you feel good independently compared to watch failure and misery every day"
Spoken like a true sociopath bully. If "busting some kneecap" makes you "feel good", you are no better than the violent sociopaths you are pretending to stand against.
Remind me of something. How much Medicare For All has voting blue no matter who gotten you again?
The fact they act like that's a viable political strategy is fucking pathetic. Like what functional adult says some dumbass shit like this like it's ok.
@@benjaminasmus3980 Are you actually suggesting that threatening congresspeople is more grounded in reality than engaging in the political process? Do you want authoritarianism? Because this is literally how you get it...
I just checked out the comment section on Paul's video, and WOW I have literally never seen so many people siding with Vaush before outside of this channel. Almost every comment is saying that they agree more with Vaush, and how silly primarily Paul was being. Also a lot of people saying Vaush changed their mind. Pretty wild.
Vaush is damn good at what he does.
I love it when society is stable and I can be a dipshit in a computer chair.
Don't we all
A triple wide computer chair
Vaush wants to vote for genocidal Biden so he can continue to sit in his computer chair and be dumb while a holocaust of Palestinians happens, because he apparently can’t do that under Trump I guess?
I think the problem is that most Americans have always been completely isolated from the consequences of their actions, so they don't truly understand how bad things could really get. Maybe its cause I'm a eurofrog, but this sentiment terrifies me.
You know what mass voter abstemiousness because the ineffective centrist party didn't do enough gets you? You get the Third Reich, that's what you get. And everyone else has to pay for it.
I'm from a small country. When you big, globally powerful countries go full fucking rabid, its us and poor countries or otherwise weaker countries who get the worst of it. Last time that happened my country made a deal with the devil to spare itself the horrors of WW2, a shameful, cowardly act, and we were the ones who got lucky. The rest of Europe was bled and starved and murdered and enslaved.
If you were a German in 1933 and decided not to vote to "pressure the SPD" and that knowledge could be magically beamed into the minds of the victims of the Nazi regime, they would use their last breath to curse you. Because they never had any ability to stop this, they never had a choice. You did, and chose to do nothing because you wanted to play main character of history.
Ignorant Americans have the luxury of not caring about the result of how they vote because "well they are both the same really, the worst has already happened, muh patriot act". Meanwhile I have to be constantly anxious about another country's elections because a possible consequence of you lot being too lazy or grandstanding to vote is me and everyone on earth dying in nuclear hellfire a few decades down the line because the cavorting hordes of cannibal evangelicals ruling over the carcass of America have decided it's time to sacrifice all of humanity for the rapture.
😢
Wow, so true.
Unironically extremely true
Facts. I'll never understand how people like Paul will accuse this kind of thing for being doomer when it's just reality - situations can always get worse, and institutions aren't impervious to the worst fucking imaginable scenarios. Like come on, if you're even remotely left-leaning you should know this. And even if that scenario doesn't come to pass, where does thinking it's already the worst it can be get you? Does not participating in the slightest because you'd rather wait for some perfect deity make it any better?
Left out how centrists side with fascists and crush leftist groups.
Otherwise I agree overall
Idk man. It seems like Americans are having their rights taken away too.
As someone who has watched these guys for years I can confidently tell you Paul's opposition to voting Dem is purely emotional. He literally says as much constantly "I could never bring myself to vote for Dems" "boo hoo I was duped by Obama", everything else is window dressing. Unfortunately Tj has allowed Paul to grind him down to a little nub that offers no opposition to his fits
Same here and your right. I'm a patreon of theirs and like their shows but it seems like they don't realize how bad the right has got since GW Bush and they dont remember the effects of Trump winning. I can understand that because being a leftist from Reagan to W Bush was a horrible time and I wasn't at the time, I was a moron conservative in ways other than bigotry and abortion but learned my mistakes and learned history and the effects of right wing policies and their effects while seeing the opposite policies and how well they have worked. It's a double edge sword working with the current centrist democrat party but theirs nothing else at the moment to counter the right. The work that needs to be don't between elections seems like they forget that.
@@weightlifting_socialist I do not understand because they have identical positions save for spending 13.8 seconds filling in a bubble for a Democrat. If you do that Paul will unironically spend hours telling you about how you're spending all of your time advocating for Democrats.
We could tell within the first 15 minutes of this debate
ya, ultimately its why I stopped watching them years ago.
“Stop getting emotional about Biden’s genocide and just vote for him bro”
Wow great messaging
I'm not a debate bro. I don't even like listening to debates. But man, Vaush staying on point, explaining his position and staying rational vs the emotional reactions of Paul is amazing.
Lmao imagine being this dumb
@@tyrannosaurustheproudliber5619 Point refuted impeccably, you are so smart
@@Account81658 No shit it's obvious. It was so good they had to censor it lmao.
"I'm older than you!" Reminds me of a time I was arguing with a conservative who said, "ehhh you're just a millennial," to dismiss everything I said without having to engage with any of it. So fucking weak. "My beard is bigger!" Would have been a more compelling argument.
Literally my mom's favorite go to on any political topic, it's a thought terminating cliche from people who are just completely convinced they're so right it's impossible for them to learn even. It was so telling when he was taunting Vaush that he would become Paul.
My parents use this to me me being a democrat. "ah ten years you'll be a Republican" don't hold your breathe.
@@IIRadianceI have become more left-wing as I've gotten older and more empathetic.
It was craaaazzzyyy when he said "my parents were union workers and always voted Democrat and lived like rich people and got to retire" and that was the reason NOT to vote for Democrats, the party that's better on unions.
Every time I comment on a Vaush debate it gets worse like 20 minutes later without fail. TJ is such a baby, my god.
that was not his point tho. I dont agree with a lot he said, but you arent representing his position accurately. The point was that voting for the lesser of two evils is still going to lead to a worse government and it will stack up over time. He says that for this reason the quality of life today is much worse than it used to be.
@@halo1of1the1sun Voting republican would be even worse
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan Yeah, I agree with that. Even they agree with that, its just that they think its only slowing down the inevitable. Paul did say that he doesn't care if people vote or not, but wants people to also have some kind of plan to stop this cycle, because its leading us in the same place, just slower.
Im honestly not sure how true this is, but i am saddened by seeing how careless they are about genocide. Thats almost a mask off moment. Its hard to be enthusiastic about these monsters. All that is left is the fear from the bigger monsters. Which is beyond depressing
Paul's dumb but he said they couldn't retire.
Vaush did amazing against 3 opponents. Maybe next time they should have 6 against him to make it more fair.
Vaush is Link from Hyrule Warriors, single-handedly mowing down entire armies.
I feel like scottie stayed out of it for the most part
@@jonathanard7885 that's cuz Scotty doesn't know
@@jonathanard7885 It's because Scotty is (and always will be) based af
@@coryneff7048😂
This solidified my love for Vaush. Finally, a leftist who knows realpolitik and realizes that for everyone who isn't a middle-class straight white guy there have been immense strides in the last couple decades.
Thanks for understanding how much has been done, and for understanding how to accomplish more with the tools we have.
Like 57:35, it is privilege, unironically. We had a trans Marine who kept our battalion running through 2 deployments, and several of my fellow Marines became citizens upon the completion of boot camp through the DREAM act. Trump closed those windows, Biden reopened them. And of course, the only reason I could enlist in the first place was because Dems repealed DADT with total opposition from Republicans.
This is why "both-siders" are the most obnoxious mfs in politics.
22 a day we need to increase those numbers.
@@IceAxe1940apologize to every tree you pass on the off chance you do ever go outside
@@catnerdadrian7601 I go outside everyday since I've got a job and life nice projection on your part.
I grow happy knowing that imperialist enforcers subtract themselves everyday from the population by 22 that needs to increase more no sympathy for baby killers like the OP.
Yeah, like. Honestly, that IS the picture book definition of privilege: he is a person who's day to day life will not change if Trump wins, but that isn't the case for women, black communities, immigrant communities, queer communities, trans people...
What a self-absorbed, short-sighted, childish way of thinking.
As heated as this got, I hope they don't take this as some reason to hate on you and refuse to have you on anymore, as this was also a pretty damned good debate. Least at some points
I wouldn't hold my breath. Both sides walked away thinking the other wasn't acknowledging any of their arguments, and both comment sections are polarized towards the creator they are listening to.
@blackhabits6408 I've also seen a lot of comments saying they used to be a fan of DFF until Paul got worse and ruined it. There's a good amount of ppl that left DFF thanks to him and the ones that stayed like how annoying and antagonist he is.
@@rcurl44 Well, DFF isn't strictly political, and Paul's cynicism works for their deep-dives and entertainment-based content. He didn't change ever; Paul's been like this for almost 2 decades - believe me, I started online around 2008 watching Paul since he started online. I guarantee that most of those people don't watch DFF for the politics - except to have another content source from leftists, maybe - but those who do, I think, are harder to reach with this logic.
Edit: Also when they are political, they are mostly shit-talking the right, and I think none of us would disagree with what they have to say in those regards.
Can confirm I stopped watching because of Paul. His arrogance and synde/smugness just got intolerable after a while. That and he flys off the handle when addressing people in chat. Hes insufferable.
@@_ZapRowsdower Fair enough. I guess I've diverted from the point of the original comment, but I'm more worried about Vaush and DFF's unique points-of-view to collaborate. If you're a DFF viewer who loves their odd and vague politics, then you probably think that Vaush's base is an enemy; that we're somehow doing harm through our tactics.
This impression is what I got from their patrons-only video's comment section. Many of them think Paul's a supreme intellectual, and that his words are wise, when we would think that his tactics are what's doing the harm.
As a progressive homosexual man, hearing supposed leftist overlook my right to be human because of a general poor economy… the economy is both domestic and internationally dictated. We’re just objects to these people.
*Thank you Vaush* for your efforts.
100% I'm Indigenous Mexican whose family emigrated to America. The threat of DACA being overturned was real, and the idea that things wouldn't change much under Trump is absurd. People who think that way are not allies.
both of them are gay too. But I agree, its scary
@@halo1of1the1sunthey are also white upper income males
Paul and TJ were showing their NeoLib colors right there
They both hate you sir. DADT was democratic law, and if they really had your best interest at heart they would have codified it into law with a super majority with reproductive rights. Nobody is going to vote republican so don’t bother with this argument. find a different way to make the world better. And also ya boi is helping a genocide, can you get off the me train for a moment. You’d think as a homosexual man you’d be more inclined to realize other people are suffering besides you. Shame sir shame.
Choosing not to vote Biden over one single issue like this is the most "We go high, they go low" shit imaginable.
Like "Oh we now have a fascist state and can't do anything other than insurrectionary violence to stop it, which most likely will fail? Well, at least I didn't vote for Biden!"
“One single issue”
You mean Biden’s fascist holocaust of Palestinians?
You already live in a fascist state buddy, look what your country is doing. Do you not see the victims of Biden’s fascist imperialism as human because they aren’t American or something?
You know what’s funny? You can say this to these ineffective leftists they start doomer posting about how unfair it is they have to chose Biden or Trump.
Well, you Americans have put yourselves into the Joe Biden corner, with your pathetic voting.
i was screaming the same shit at my tv screen, i dont get that guy paul is soo blind to that
Again, you guys put yourselves into the Joe Biden catch 22 situation.@@domm5715
There's a reason he calls himself PaulsEgo and not PaulsIQ.
yeah, I'm 46 and Paul is just plain wrong. We never lived through sht like this.
Even people twice that age have said the same
Yeah when he was saying I. The past he canvassed and said things like vote blue no mater who, but essentially change his stance on that... bro at no point in history has a president been impeached twice and under 91 felony indictments, he's literally used the word vermin to describe people at his rallys... idk how anyone could think this election even remotely compares to any election in the past
Yeah, trying to overthrow the government is different.
PaulsEgo is the one who tends to disappoint me the most in these conversations, because I like him a lot. I think he’s really funny and genuine, and he’s also a great mental health advocate. I remember watching him years ago when he was in really bad shape mentally and wondering if he was still going to be with us, and I’m happy to see that he is. He’s also a great advocate for the trans community. But his voting and political takes are horrendous. He’s one of those people who will never give political leaders credit for anything, ever, unless it’s exactly the way he wants it. He thinks democratic leaders especially have a magic wand they can wave and make things happen. They definitely could be pushing much, much harder, but still, it’s more the far right’s fault than anything, and the lion’s share of the blame is on them.
The feelings you are experiencing about him are echoing the ones I have for Anarchists in general.
@@LizStaples I'd say that's why vaush moved away from the anarchist label a while back
Why do you like him? Hes scum
Not so great an advocate for the trans community if he doesn't vote blue. The state level trans bans going federal has a massive barrier to that removed if the republicans win.
@@LizStaples Hey, Anarchist here. Why is that?
I think everyone should vote for Biden. No candidate will ever be perfect, but you take the best you can get at the moment and fight for better. And I do think Biden's done surprisingly well on a bunch of issues (drone war, worker rights yada yada), even if he's still significantly below where I think we should be at this point, and has done a lot of bad as well (for all the god he's done w/ worker rights the rail strike as an example).
The electoralism bit just gets to most anarchists, because we dislike how representative democracy works currently. We need instant-recall delegates and other such things for an actually healthy democracy, if we do want to keep some elements of representative democracy in the long run. I feel like the current way we delegate this power is unhealthy and not *real* democracy. Electing people into power who are then completely unaccountable for 4 years is a horrible idea, and I don't see many people actually supporting it. And I feel like we should empower elements of direct democracy more, such as initiatives. Do you disagree?
I feel like most progressives agree with anarchist points, they've just been exposed to too many completely out of touch, delusional people and incoherent people with anarchist sentiments honesty.
Paul is embarrassing...
Just like his shitty long streams