My Response to Roman Catholic Apologist Trent Horn's Rebuttal of Me
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2021
- Trent Horn has over 8 hours of video content "refuting" me. Today, I'm going to respond to some of that content. Because there is FAR too much to do a thorough response to, I will be reacting to one of his recent videos point by point. Here's Trent's video. • Catholicism is a Cult ...
This can be a bit awkward for me, to be honest, because I don't want to spend time "defending myself" but I don't intend for this to be that. The issues we are discussing here are really important and I think that Trent Horn's videos are doing more to sow confusion than they are to offer any kind of proper refutation to the things I have said (and still hold) regarding Roman Catholic claims. I hope you will consider this response thoughtfully and, if you are a Roman Catholic, know that I do not do this with any personal animus toward you at all! What I think we should all agree on is that if the pope is who the Roman Catholic church says he is then we all need to submit to him but if he is not then an open opposition to such claims is only an expression of loyalty to God. If Roman Catholicism is true in it's claims to have authority over all believers then we need to all submit. If it is false, and if it is propagating various doctrines of man, then it is only a kindness to tell others about it. This issue is worth discussing, for love of God and love of man.
My teaching on James 2 and a Catholic vs a Protestant view. • The Debate Over James ...
My long debate on baptism and whether it saves (with time stamps). • Debate: "Is Water Bapt...
For those interested in more details on Romans 2 and the verses Trent Horn used to say we work for justification, here is a verse by verse study I did on it 4 years ago. • The most misused passa...
Depending on the response to this video I may make another dealing with the rest of Trent Horn's "rebuttal" because there are some very serious problems with what he has said. But because this video is already going to be really long, I have chosen to focus on the first half of his video which deals primarily with justification.
I'm Mike Winger and my website, with all free content, is BibleThinker.org
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I was a Catholic for 49 years, and after listening to Mikes logic it convinced me to research the Bible for myself. After 2 years of researching and really studying the bible I still cant prove him wrong on any of these issue's, (Believe me I really wanted him to be wrong). But Mike is spot on because the Bible proves him right, and you cannot refute God's word.
I was called a lazy Catholic a few days ago because we left the Catholic church, and I told the person he was correct I am lazy because I was done working my way to heaven. I said to him I cant work for the gift Jesus gave me. It was bought and paid for on the cross. Thank You Lord Jesus!!!!
Good job Mike well done!!!
@@user-wg5dm6oc3t You are correct on one thing I obviously didn't understand the Catholic Faith or I would have left a long long time ago. You see I really thought I knew a lot, I taught CCD classes for a season, raised 7 kids in the faith, and never missed mass but when the Holy Spirit convicts you its time to listen. I only left because the Holy Spirit lead me else ware, I encourage you to read the Bible with the Holy Spirit because he wrote it and he needs to be in you for you to understand it. My life has completely changed since I left and started following Jesus, He healed me from an incurable disease and took away many addictions.
I use to believe what you do. Just because you were taught something to be true may not really be true. example I was taught as a child in school Christopher Columbus discovered America.... But low and behold he wasn't the first, Pluto isnt a Planet either. wow who knew. I am just saying the only thing that is for sure true yesterday, today and forever is the Word of God. Read it, believe it and live it. God bless you.
Weak Catholics become protestants. Strong protestants become Catholics.
How sad
You need to know, and I have the duty to tell you that you are putting your eternal soul in jeopardy by leaving the Church Jesus founded. Mike's arguments may be very good, but they fall very short. One thing he never addresses: Is your Church the Church that Jesus founded?
If Jesus is God, then His Church should still be around, and it will be around until the end of time, and no matter where THAT Church is, we should both want to join it, no matter what.
That question requires a simple Yes or No answer. If the answer is "Yes." Then he should be able to demonstrate and prove an unbroken line back to the time of Jesus, and I and everyone else would be duty bound to join that church. If the answer is "No." Then nothing he says matters. His arguments could be fantastic. It still wouldn't matter, it's not the Church Jesus founded, so he's just one guy spouting his own opinions that really just make him feel good (and many of those opinions have been declared a heresy centuries, or even millennia ago).
The Church actually has provided such evidence that it goes back to Pentecost, St. Peter, the Apostles, and the Crucifixion. It has provided that evidence in abundance and is available for all the world to see. The Church goes back to before the Middle Ages, to before Constantine, back to the Crucifixion of a lone Jewish Carpenter on a Friday 2000 years ago. Mike's opinions only go back 500 years. "Sola Scriptura" did not, and could not exist in the first century. St. Ignatius of Antioch didn't die for a book, he died for the belief in the Real Presence. (I challenge you to read St. Ignatius of Antioch, a man who knew and was taught by St. John, and what he has to say, and compare those viewpoints to what Mike says.)
Mike is just one leader of one man-made religion, one of many which have sprung up over time, and which will die with him. He has no authority to expound on Sacred Scripture, only the Church which gave the world Sacred Scripture has the authority to do that. (He is actually committing a horrible sin of idolizing The Bible.)
I will pray for you that you leave your man-made religion, and come home to the Church founded by Jesus. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. The Church, which is the Body of Christ, and its Sacraments given by Almighty God are your ONLY hope. Not in Mike's teachings, not in his heretical viewpoints, not especially in the false christ he is preaching to you, and which you are currently following.
@@user-wg5dm6oc3t notice how the Bible doesn't add a "but" after mentioning "saved by grace through faith". Catholicism adds a "but" to that.
Who’s ready for Trent Horn’s rebuttal to your rebuttal to his rebuttals to your videos
Clipception
I hope he speeds it up to 1.25 again, it really was the sweet spot.
Can't wait for real philosophical response from Trent . Again he will floor Mick like never before
He'll not do it!! He already told that!!
He said He would not be going to an never ending loop of reactions and rebbuttals
a live discussin between both parties would be apropropriate
You are always so concerned we are going to get bored and I literally watch the entire video every time. So helpful. All of your work is so valuable. thank you Pastor Mike!
100% on the same page 🫶🏼 it could be 6 hrs long and I’ll still watch it till the end 👍🏼 Thank you for all you do!
@@Adlaremi funny you say that there is a 6hr 45 minute one on head coverings now 🤣 but you're right! We all love it haha mike gets too worried for no reason 🤣
@@Triggerhawk Except Mike is: a) Misrepresenting on all points; b) Condescending c) Therefore why do you love his stuff?
@@PapaJoeWalsh From everything I've seen, he is uncompromising on the truth which is of utmost importance, does his best not to misrepresent by studying alternate interpretations of things thoroughly and repeatedly apologizes if he does by accident, and speaks the truth with love. I am probably far more condescending than him tbh 😂
The main reason I love his stuff is because he gets right into the deepest parts of doctrine and is completely honest with where the text leads. To a Christian that is imperative to good teaching. If you're Catholic and this is the only video you've watched from Mike, then I can probably understand why you might not liking him very much. He's probably one of if not the best teacher I've ever heard.
However I vaguely remember watching this video ages ago and I found it rather boring because it gets too much into insignificant little dramas, "he said i said but i really said" sorta stuff.
But how about you tell me simply which points he misrepresented on. Although I don't think this conversation will reach a conclusion, since I understand that for a Catholic to go against the dogma based on anything makes them anathema, which must be pretty scary. But hey, truth is truth, and if we wanna search the truth in sincerity ill carry it on lol.
But yeah tell me your points if you'd like.
@@Triggerhawk Hi Triggerhawk. Thank you for your comments.
I do not know this guy Mike at all, so I can only comment on his video content. I am sure he is well meaning and a good, faithful Christian. My comments do not take away from that at all, and his good character, which I am presuming, is not an issue.
He does however, feed into the age old Protestant myths about Catholics, most of which revolve around misunderstandings about Catholic teaching and practice on hot topics such as: the communion of saints, the sacraments such as reconciliation, baptism, ordination etc and the authority of the Pope. I have not heard Mike speak accurately about any of these. Mike is not a Catholic and cannot speak with authority on any of these doctrine; that can only come from a Catholic expert and not a Protestant who does not have the correct understanding but a strong bias in the wrong direction.
I refer you to Bishop Robert Barron, for example, who gives brilliant and very clear expositions on many aspects of Catholic/Christian teaching, which he delivers in ten minute slots.
I can only tell you, as a Catholic, that what Mike proposes is simply not accurate. Why would I say that if I agreed with his assessment of Catholic teaching? If he was correct then I wouldn't need to comment at all, I would just say, well, yes, that is what my Church teaches - but it most certainly is not, at least not in the way he presents it.
I have gone into fine detail on elements of Mike's comments in the past which took such a long time, and it was not received as anything other than deception from "Protestant" commentators. I only got ten minutes or so into the video and had so many corrections to make that I ran out of steam.
I find it almost impossible to believe, that no matter what a Catholic says that we ACTUALLY believe and practice, there are those who just cannot get past what seems like genetic resistance to the truth. I do not expect any Protestant to take on Catholic practices, but at least they should have the respect and openness to hear and understand what we ACTUALLY believe and practice. Sorry if this betrays a deep frustration, but that is the case.
I have given explanations of elements of Catholic teaching on these pages and others any number of times, and I really do not want to do so again as it will not be accepted as true. Being cynical, apparently Protestants know what Catholics believe better than Catholics do and they feel the need to "educate" us as we are "ignorant" of our own set of beliefs; and delivered in such a condescending manner.
My best regards, Joe
I think what you're forgetting is when John the Baptist said "I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." This pretty much puts water baptism in the correct perspective.
We've got the same name
@@joekingjoekingjoeking Yeah, I'm going to have to change it to Joseph Paul King III.
@@joeking433 Good idea. There can only be one true Joe King. Just kidding. Glad I bumped into you.
@@joekingjoekingjoeking Instead of "Just kidding" you could've said "I'm only Joe King"
@@yblackie haha. yeah, I get that a lot.
Please Pray for my family. They are Buddhists who have a emotional feeling that Buddhism is true and so disregard all the evidence for Christ. When I ask for their evidence for Buddhism, they say they don't need it cause they feel that it's right. God bless you all!
That's like Mormonism's "burning in the bosom"
Hey man, you should research Pure Lands Buddhism / Shinran Buddhism as a potential touchpoint or meeting ground.
Tell them Israel is still there, Jerusalem is still there and Bethlehem is still there , they are real and so is God and Jesus Christ.
I will pray for you and yours. Keep planting those seeds and share the Gospel. The Holy Spirit will then nourish those 'seeds' that fall on good soil. Stay strong and God Bless you.
Just let them see Jesus in you. Love the hell out of them. Literally. God is with you bro!
I was raised as a catholic. Been catholic for 20 years. Being catholic does not mean you are a christian. I never heard about true salvation. I always wanted to know the truth. I regularly attended mass, there was a point where I used to attend mass every single day, did everything what they told to do (praying the rosary everyday, going for confessions). And then in 2019, came a day in my life where everything changed. I was depressed and needed someone and also desperate to know who God really is. That day these very words came from my mouth " Lord I surrender my life to you". And that day I felt extreme peace and forgiveness of God, never felt this before. From that day on, there was such a hunger placed in me, to dig deeper into the word, and to hear the voice of God. Gradually, God directed me by His word and Spirit to get out of catholicism and idolatry.
Amen.
@@AaronR319 I think the point of this discussion is that most Catholics aren't taught where to find the gospel. Where the Scripture is taught, the Holy Spirit will use it to bring the listeners to salvation. The trouble lies in codified Roman Catholic doctrine, which values extra-biblical traditions at least as much as it does Scripture.
The problem with the Catholic Church is that Jesus isn’t enough. They will tell you about Jesus and then add so much more. Mary, the sacraments, etc. And in the end people are just confused.
Praise God!
@@AaronR319 I was an alter boy, never abused or anything like that, but I memorized the entire service. I did so many masses that if the priest died that morning I could say word for word what he would say. There is no heart, no Gospel, no Jesus Christ. There were a lot of saints and Mary worship. I hate saying it but Catholicism is so destructive to a person's soul. Confession to a priest won't save you. A priest cannot take Jesus off the thrown and put him into a wafer. I urge you study what a priest must do in order for a mass to be valid. If he fails at any step the mass is not valid. How is it a Catholic puts their entire salvation on a priest and not Jesus Christ?
Wow that Romans exegesis was profoundly lucid when you read the entire context which you delineated with rightfully dividing the word, displaying wisdom and grace. God bless you Mr. Winger.
Imagine if at the court the judge would say "You're proven innocent, but if you do good works, you're gonna be even more innocent" 😆😆😆
That is a great analogy!
Thank you! You get it! Let’s keep our lost brothers and sisters in prayer
James chapter 2… you see a man is saved by WORKS and NOT by faith alone….. ouch
@@nathanoppy You’re misquoting that James verse. James 2:14-26 is speaking on showing faith with action not just declaring belief. Now please go read Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16 and Romans 10:9-11. Please come back afterwards 😁
@@daltonbrasier5491and then ypu find oht that a drug addict dreamed it and accused the judge if it when it never happened
I’m seeing a lot of comments claiming that you and Trent misrepresent each other’s arguments. This could be easily avoided if you were willing to have a conversation with him. Just saying…
I think Mike is an introvert.
@@user-to5fp2np2o If that’s the case then why is a pastor??? And I’ve seen him have discussions with other creators before
I feel like Winger/his followers have this impression that Horn/his followers are angry mean people (which I don't blame him? Cause you can sometimes see that 15% of Horn's comment/reply section being just that, and these 15% also tend to hang at Winger's social media posts)....but it makes me also think that after Winger's very poor performance against Dillahunty, he stopped doing debates/live disagreements altogether; why else would he agree to debate Dillahunty [him and his followers being 100 times more abrasive]; and not a cool nice guy like Horn with nearly all of his followers being charitable and cordial?
@@JaySeamus If what you’re saying is true then I don’t see how that would be a respectable position. If Mike was actually searching for truth and was wanting to represent Trent’s arguments accurately then he wouldn’t let “mean” comments get in the way of having a civil discussion with Trent.
@@user-to5fp2np2o How? He's a pastor and he's on social media. Introverts don't like to be on camera.
Forget debate, just have a friendly, passionate discussion based on the issues you’ve both already brought up.
True💯
Yeah! Just a charitable discussion between two Christians.
'friendly, passionate discussion based on the issues' is a debate 😀
Honestly this format of methodically breaking down each other’s arguments is much more clear than any convo or debate imo
@Guitar Jesse, I've done this, and it doesn't lead anywhere. We need to know our facts, but at the end of the day it is the Holy Spirit who converts us.
One of the things that I appreciate about you so much Mike is that you don't just want to be understood you never want to be miss understood and thats very critical in this heavy debate. Your hard work has been a huge blessing to me and my family!!!
Agree 100% 👍🙏😉
I think the most important point is made at the end where he states that we, the listener, must be able to weigh the points for ourselves instead of being influenced on the spot [or by our bias] by rhetoric without knowing enough about the background behind the topic.
I agree with Mike - misquoting the Princess Bride was his most egregious error in the entire video. (Thank you for your ministry and may God bless you)
Brian King: For those of us who have never seen Princess Bride, how would we know it was an error?
🤣
@@skeptical6307 What? That I say I never saw Princess Bride? Or the other guy's statement?
@@shirleygoss1988 Brian King's statement.
@@skeptical6307 I'd been curious. Thanks!
If you’re so right and think he’s misleading, then idk maybe you should debate him bro? I don’t get it, if you’re so convinced of Catholicism’s “clear issues” why not debate. EVERY Catholic and Orthodox online apologist that does these type of rebuttal videos are always open to debates. I know for a fact Lofton from R&T would debate you.
Winger won’t debate. He’s totally disingenuous.
He's about to break here, note the tremulous voice. He doesn't seem like he can tolerate criticism, he could not function in a debate environment.
He tries his best in saying that he never misrepresented Roman Catholicism the whole video. He's so convinced he didn't even once, and if there are examples, he says that "the discussion ends there or gets lost to things that 'are not good examples' ".
There's no telling a man like this that he's misrepresented. He discards any and all criticism as inferior his own, even when defining another position that's not his
@Caratacus
While you're correct in one sense, debates reward good debaters, it doesn't apply here.
Mike drops calumny and detraction against Catholicism, he throws down the gauntlet to Catholic apologists, then runs away.
He refuses to debate.
He's a punk.
He's the type of kid who antagonizes someone on the playground, gets punched in the nose, then cries he's the victim.
He is not a serious minded individual.
@Caratacus
Mike not doing well in a debate is not the point, of course he would get crushed.
His masculinity is the point, his integrity is the point.
The passive aggressive playground bully getting punched in the nose is not necessarily a bad thing.
It may actually be a good thing for the bully as it might aide in his development as a man.
Likewise, Mike.
Trent even offered a discussion format as an option, but the hot house flower that is Mike Winger refused even that.
Simply put, Mike is indicating a severe lack of integrity.
I was Roman Catholic until age 25. I then was born again and have continued in “the faith” until this day. I’m 74 years old. I read and understand tha Bible just as you teach. You have a good understanding of Catholic doctrines. You have explained the concepts of grace versus grace plus works very well.
You were born again when you were baptized
@@aggienodari453hahahahah just read your bible:) baptized by the Holy Spirit:)
@@BABALAGAJIGAPOO There wasn't a single "Born Again" pastor during the early church or at the time of the Reformation. You don't start to see it until the 1900's. The term born again was always a held belief of Baptism, born from above.
Take RCIA
@@johnyang1420 rcia, thats a joke.
“He’s not refuting me, he’s refuting imaginary me.” Well said.
@NM and that’s just the beginning. It’s hard to watch as somebody Who is very close to someone who is Catholic hook line and sinker. I agree with Mike that the thing most Catholics have going for them is that they don’t entirely understand Catholicism and that may be their saving grace.
@@pjbostic Catholicism is needlessly complicated with trying to justify papacy and all untenable and burdensome doctrines and most Catholics are bad apologists and simply unaware of RCC theology. Most of them just want the Eucharist which is locked away from anyone who wants it (which entire doctrine is wrong anyways) but I don’t understand why that’s the summit of the faith 🤨
@@duckymomo7935 not complicated once you learn Church history an read the writings of the early Christians.
No, Trent refuted him and is/way more convincing. Winger shows nothing but arrogance.
@@duckymomo7935 Oh contrare, Protestantism is just as complicated,. Well you dont have to anything... cant earn your way... well you have to do this....personal savior etc THOUSANDS OF DEMONIATIONS all inspired by the Holy Spirit....But not unified!
More confusion and complexity:
Baptism does do something or no well maybe
The Bible is the sole source of truth, what about "Unless you eat my flesh"? Naahhhhh
Faith alone without works. James 2:24 (no... that means something different) Ok but what about Sola Scriptura nahhhh
And the list goes on and on...
Catholicism has only 5 rules. 5.
There is either One True Church or there isnt. I am weary of arguing so have a nice life...
Mike, you touched on something that makes my chest hurt when I watch Christians nonchalantly shrug off a false gospel and play the game of appeasing everyone by having the "let's all get along" attitude instead of calling a spade a spade. As you said, Paul definitely did not play nice with folks that deliberately perverted the Gospel. "I wish those who are troubling you would cut the whole thing off". I am glad to see someone take the gloves off and defend the Gospel against blatant perversion - the Gospel is a matter of eternal significance and infinite worth.
Christ be with you
Mike is to scared to debate Trent.
His gloves are off he's hiding
Catholicism is not a false Gospel, it is Christ Gospel.
come to Christ
@@MrKev1664i seriously doubt that anyone is intellectually intimidated by trent horn's arguments.
@@daelon86 so maybe someone should refute them. It’s funny hearing you aren’t biblical from a Pastor who believes in the unbiblical young doctrine of Sola Scriptura
@@MrKev1664 I came to Christ a long time ago and I didn’t need the Catholic Church to do it
@@countryboyred
Christ be with you
Bon what grounds do you make your claim
Holy Spirit guide you
Great vid and response Mike. Romans 11:6 sums it up pretty well
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace"
OLD TESTAMENT WORKS OF THE LAW! JUDAISM! It doesn’t mean that you aren’t required to do good works & bear fruit as a Christian. “And the dead were judged according to their WORKS”, “WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION with fear and trembling”,
Now our Lord Jesus Christ : “Unless one is born of water and spirit, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of Heaven”, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you”. “Any tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and cast into the fire”.
@@davidmcmanus5918 ephesians 2: 8-10
Titus 3:5
Galatians 2:16
@@davidmcmanus5918 no you are justified by works but saved by grace through faith alone. How much works = Salvation and how will I know I did enough? See that is what muslims believe.
@@davidmcmanus5918 what your saying is universalist not Christian at all. If you believe works save you I hope for yours sake you've done enough to equal your soul. I'll put my trust and faith in the finished work of Christ.
@@davidmcmanus5918 hopefully you come to realize your error before it's too late. Seek the Lord while he may be found.
As always I appreciate the clarity of your teaching and rebuttals to those who differ.Also the grace that you show in responding.Thank u for your ministry Mike.More grace on your ministry.
Developing a mountain of tiny non-issues certainly does help give the illusion that someone is bringing the reliable truth. It’s a careful undermining of an opponent before getting to the real issue.
Problem is that Trent doesn't really move beyond that - pretty well every single "point" he made was, essentially, a strawman. Sad, really.
Mike, I am a long time fan, never commented before. Your stuff really got me through a tough time. I'm not a Christian, though i have been baptized. I sin far too often. I believe but the flesh is too strong for me. Thanks for giving me a place to go when I need perspective. You do a great job.
Thank you Christopher. I’m praying for you, that God would lead you to Himself and to the freedom that there is in Christ. :)
The flesh is too strong Christopher that’s the reason Christ had to die as a substitute he never sinned because he was fully God and he was fully man so that he could sympathize with our weaknesses. He knows that we fail… so now he stands in our place when we stand before God… put your trust in God alone, your acknowledgment of your own fleshly weakness is awesome! It means you recognize a need for a saviour. He works in us over time… we mess up, but we ask God to help us repent we ask God to help us hate our sin… he WILL answer God bless Christopher… you are not alone… this is the journey of every Christian
You believe and have been baptized and sin far too often… yep sounds like all of us Christians. ❤️
Jesus came to save sinners 🙂
Look to His finished work on the cross.
We all sin far too often friend you're not alone.
For me the only way out of my bad habits when I became a christian was to draw closer to the lord and nurture my relation with him. Fixating on my sin was not that effective. Spending time in prayer, his word and speaking to him on a personal level made me love him more and made me want to avoid grieving him by sinning.
Pray for him to reveal to you the way to an intimate relationship. Also, try to speak/pray to him straight from your heart with the knowledge that he hear your every word, is right beside you and wants to be with you and listen to you.
If you read through the gospel you can clearly see the intimate relation Jesus have with his father. He wants that with us too.
Being raised catholic and deeply intrigued by it when I finally found Jesus through the scriptures I was so shocked at what I used to believe. Delivered and can never go back to what the Lord delivered me from. Thanks pastor Mike
I would love to know what you did specifically. I am a believer in Christ as of recently but I’ve been married for about seven years and my wife is Catholic and I don’t know how to convince her.
@@bobbyrice2858 go through the scriptures brother. Study them deeply and compare them to the current Roman Catholic teachings. I’d suggest reading through Galatians and comparing them to some of the councils, there are some in this video. Most of all pray to God that he give you wisdom in your search.
@@BillyBob-sm3ku i've done some of this but its only incurred wify wrath :/ she gets very upset when i poke holes in it and takes a very standoffish view
Was gelation's what convinced you? like what was the "moment" where it clicked and how did that happen?
@@bobbyrice2858 the fact that grace plus works for salvation leaves you with no grace I think Mike put it well in the video starting at 54:20 the parts of Galatians that specifically stood out to me was Galatians 2:16-3:14
I really appreciate this video, I learned a lot. My personal takeaway from this video is that Mike was trying to uncover truth, while Horn was trying to win a debate.
Your takeaway is incorrect. You should not espouse such an uncharitable view. Mike was refusing to hear Trent when he defined his terms.
@@wheatandtares-xk4lp trent used wrong definition of terms though and misrepresented almost every belief or intentionally left it vague
@@wheatandtares-xk4lp Mike said Catholicism isn’t a cult….. Trent said he said it’s a cult
Nailed it.
I see the exact opposite. Mike clearly interchanges the words "faith" and "grace" to explain himself which actually is conflating Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura, which is intellectually dishonest
Something has become very clear to me after listening to Mike (being precise and accurate and thinking through passages). Nearly all errors, heresy and cultish ideas stem from one major problem.
Not reading all of a chapter or all of an argument or all of a book.
I see Muslims doing this all the time, Roman Catholics, JWs, Mormons etc. etc.
All the time sadly.
Every time. Literally anytime a new religion is formed from the Bible it’s like it lacks the context of having the whole Bible. They just pull one passage and create a religion rather than pull the full context of the Bible
Including Protestants
@@SharonFowle yes tbh even us but it’s not our core doctrine it’s just certain so called Christian’s, but as for the others named, that’s their actual theology or doctrine.
@@TruthandnothingbutTHEtruth. why bother than with rebuttals? We are human and fallible even when the Holy Spirit is guiding us when reading the bible
Only commenting on the first 20 minutes cuz that’s all I’ve seen so far. As a Catholic, I recognize Mike makes a few solid points in the beginning, that Trent shouldn’t have said that Mike says Catholicism is a cult. Solid. I think Mike overall has good intentions, though not perfect in his presentation of Catholic doctrine.
I think Protestants like Mike sometimes simplify a little too much the idea that Catholic doctrine “teaches faith plus works.” It might be better synthesized as something like “we are saved by God’s grace, we receive this grace by responding with faith (and there is even no faith without grace), and this faith lived out manifests in good works, and the more we live by authentic faith (by grace) and as a result live good works (by grace) the more we are ‘working out our salvation with fear and trembling’ while immersed in God’s lavish graces.” Put even more simply “we are saved by grace.” The quote that Mike even uses a few minutes in from the council of Trent describes the works that are being done “by grace.” It is not a work done by solely human power, but Christ working in us and with us, and which already presupposes faith.
In all my life of going to mass on Sunday, and going to mass every day for the last 5 years, I can’t name one time I’ve ever heard someone preaching that we can earn our own salvation apart from Jesus, nor does that exist in any Catholic doctrine, or any teaching of a doctor of the church.
I’ll leave it with this. St Paul says “if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing” (1 Cor 13:2). If I am not loving, or “willing the good of the other” as St Thomas Aquinas defines love, I am nothing. The Catholic Church simply recognizes that loving Our Savior and doing what He says (like loving God with all our mind, heart, soul, and strength, loving our neighbor as ourself, loving our enemy, doing good to those who persecute us, lending without expecting anything in return etc.) is good for us, detaching us from the world, forming us to be more like Christ and strengthening us with virtue to “endure to the end,” all in the grace of Our Savior.
Peace to you, Mike, and all you viewers.
Your second paragraph describing faith and then attributing it to God’s grace is formally declared as heresy by the Roman Catholic Church.
What you described is salvation by grace through faith alone. All you’ve done, essentially, is distinguish your living faith from the “dead” faith that James said doesn’t save. Martin Luther wrote plenty about this in his book *Bondage of the Will* and Jean Calvin wrote about it also, sounding just like you just did in that paragraph, in his *Institutes of the Christian Religion.*
You’re still saying that faith alone saves you, which is anathematized as heresy by the Roman Catholic Church.
This is pretty important for you to consider. Many do not fully understand this difference.
I dont agree on the point that Mike not calling RCC a cult. Even though he clarifies later in the video that he would not want to call RCC a cult - its still in a video about cults, so at best its a slight of hand or clickbait.
@@KMANelPADRINO Martin Luther believed you could rape and murder all you want and still go to heaven.
@@cjr4497 Chapter and book reference for evidence of your statement, please. Luther’s works are very well known and easy to reference.
@@NicklasNylander87 we all know Mike is very good in his hypocritical remarks about the Catholic Church.
I would love to see you two do a live debate. These issues are important and need to be hashed out.
Horn is more than willing to. This guy, not so much...
If they're lost, they'll walk away from the truth..
@@joeyunger6460 why would he do a live debate? That doesn’t really help anything. We hear all their points and we have the Bible. A live debate just shows who is better at arguing not who is right theologically and scripturally.
@@jdj2022
How did we even get a Bible and who decided it should contain only 66 Books? Do you read it?
But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong.
Acts 15
@@radar4545 yes I have read the Bible cover to cover many times and I have also read the Apocrypha.
I believe God divinely inspired what was put on the Bible as he is all powerful.
If you are talking about what men decided what scripture would be canonized, that was done by the early church and mainly Catholics. They chose to keep the apocrypha separate from sacred scripture. But still kept it in the church for good historical writings for the church.
This is how it should be treated, it can be read and taken with a grain of salt because it isn’t and has never been scripture.
I watch some of your videos repeatedly. I learn SO MUCH!!
I learn a lot about what this guy gets wrong.
Mike, once again, I just want to thank you for being a great example of showing patience and humility towards people who are openly misrepresenting you. You have really helped me so much these past two years of watching you on here. I thank God for leading me to your videos and your channel. I pray that God will continue to bless you, your family and this ministry! I love you brother.
Really! Amazing
Trent has opened the floor for a dialog or a debate i really think you should accept it
He wont, ever. We all know (well, most of us) why.
@Caratacus that why i also said dialog. Its a bit cowardly tovmake all these videos and refuse to have a correspondence with trent be it written ornpre recorded , or a moderate chat like two normal humen beings.
@Caratacus i dont see why he wouldt agree to record it but thats better then nothing. Trent has already agreed for that as well.
I think most people understand not doing a debate but refusing all dialogue is PATHETIC! Mike Winger turn in your man card.
I don't see why this is not dialogue, all I see is comments demanding Mike debate Trent, but none actually addressing what Mike says. I find this weird.
The key difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestant/Reformed is this: do our works play a part in saving us? Roman Catholicism argues that works increase the amount of grace and secure our salvation, whilst being also a proof to the fact that we are Christians. Protestants argue that the work part has been finished once and for all in the life and death of Jesus, and that believers exhibit that same life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the inputted life.
What is the big difference? I put forward that the difference is 1) The source of motivation and 2) The sufficiency of each form of salvation. In Roman Catholicism, the motivation to do good is from the outside; God only brings them to the starting line and they have to scramble to finish. You need to consciously discipline and push to do as much good to people and others in order to be saved. How much good do they have to do to finally merit enough grace and salvation? No one knows. There is no active role for God in their good works; it's all them. Catholics attempt to sugarcoat it by saying that God is the one who provides them all the resources. In practice however, the works that they do are no different in principle with all other work-based religions - they have to worry about their own salvation before others; bondage.
In Protestant/Reformed doctrine, the motivation comes from within. The love of Christ fills the heart of the Christian to seek, understand and apply God's will. Salvation is already sufficient, consummated on the cross. Rather than be worried about their own salvation, Christians are set free to spread the love of Christ that they have tasted to be sweet. That is the beauty of Christianity, it is the input of an internal drive that transforms the physical man to do good to God and others, not for their own sake - but for God's.
Which is more beautiful? Which version of God is more desirable? Which is more just? A God that just dumps us on the starting line with passive resources, or the God that actively empowers us to walk to the finish?
Brilliant explanation. thank you!
Catholic here. You have a deep misunderstanding of Catholic soteriology.
We must accept God's grace to be saved, and we must cooperate with that grace and what God is asking of us so that He can continue to transform us from within.
The real difference is that Catholics believe you don't only accept Jesus once. You continuously accept Jesus to let Him continuously transform and sanctify you.
So, unless you gravely and purposely reject God, you are guaranteed Heaven. And letting God work through you means you will be sanctified.
The idea that you have to earn Heaven or do the work yourself is heresy.
Thank you so much for taking the time, devoting your life, to do this research and produce these videos/podcasts. I have neither the time or motivation to do all the reading and research that you do, but I still love learning about it. What you do is so important and much appreciated.
Unfortunately Bowhunter, the research Mike seems to have done is to find "proof" to support his pre-concluded narrative about Catholicism. Much of his proposals mis-represent what Catholics believe which he does not. That fact that he does not believe in, for example infant baptism, does not automatically make it somehow heretical because Catholics do. He mis-quotes the story about Cornelius' whole household being saved by stating confidently that there were no children in the household, and "proves it" by asked the audience did any of their households have young children in them. This produced much laughter and was accepted as some sort of proof that no infants were present in Cornelius' house. Fair enough to disagree with the doctrine, but please don't mock it Mike simply because it is expedient for you not to accept it.
All in all, trent, justifies his position through the Catholic church doctrine and you Mike justify your position through the biblical doctrine. Not to make it too simple but really it is that simple the Bible wins every time
" really it is that simple *the Bible wins every time"*
Scripture: THIS IS MY BODY
Church of Winger: No it is not
Scripture: BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU
Church of Winger: No it does not
EVERY TIME!
Peter clearly says that he doesn’t mean the actual water. John told us that Jesus’s baptism of the Spirit would be greater than water baptism.
After the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus was trying to turn the focus of his followers from their physical needs to their spiritual needs. He points to himself as what they really need (as His body and blood would be offered to satisfy their spiritual needs) To contrast their fixation on having enough food, He speaks of himself as their “real food,” never meaning that He is actually physical food! He says himself that he’s speaking spiritual in John 6:63)
First, I say this in love, I hope we can both come to a more fuller understanding of God and who he is.
Yes, the Bible is God's Word. It is the final authority.
Heaven and earth will pass away but my word will never pass away
Now, to the two arguments you have stated that Mike and other christians, contradict the bible actually do not in fact.
To the first argument about Jesus' body literally being bread and the wine literally turning into grape juice. I would like to share my interpretation of it. So you know the verse John 10:7
"So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep... "" Jesus isnt literally stating that he is a door, even though you could take it that way. In the same way I don't believe that Jesus is saying that the bread and wine literally turns into His body and blood. I mean if it does I bet scientist could examine the catholics who partake the Eucharist and those who have not and be able to tell the difference.
Now to the second one, He has already explained his thoughts in the video.
I hope whoever reads this comment finds it a bit helpful. But man I would rather talk to you guys face to face and talk about Christ. Take care.
@TruthHasSpoken read in context smh
The satanic Protestant Bible never wins against the Church of God
I actually listen to both of you, I don't always agree with you ( because I'm Catholic), but I do really enjoy your videos. I grew up as an evangelical so they way you talk makes sense to me.
So, outta the frying pan and into the fire. Just be a child of God in the truth of Jesus Christ and let the denomination labels die. 1st Corinthians 3:3 for you are yet carnal; for where as there is among you envying and strife and divisions, are you not carnal and walk as men? 3:4 for while one says, I am of Paul, and another, I am of Apollos, are you not carnal?" I believe we could add, Protestant, catholic, baptist, Calvinist, and the list goes on and on. I was born and raised Catholic but I was delivered from not only the Vatican, but all these other labels to just be one who has been made a child of God through the written and living word of God and the truth thereof, Jesus Christ. I pray that one day you and many others may overcome these carnal labels.
I’m in a similar but opposite situation as an evangelical who appreciates both Trent and Mike. Thanks for your comment. It’s always good to see a fellow Christian who can disagree well! Restores my faith in online discourse a little bit 😂
@@RowanAldridge
Same. Protestant who loves them both but gonna give this battle to Horn just like I gave it to Horn when he resoundingly refuted James White on the “Once Saved Always Saved” debate.
@@IAmisMaster Do you mind elaborating a bit as to why you feel that way? I'm having a hard time seeing much validity from Horn and maybe I could see where you are coming from.
@@Its-SKs
I’m a lifelong Protestant (still am) who agreed with Winger for the first 26 years of my life. But then I realized the Protestant arguments to support Luther and Calvin’s view on justification by faith alone were one-dimentional in all the wrong verses, while putting nuance in all the wrong verses and concepts. The truth is all the early church taught that one is saved and justified by actual works of righteousness Christ does through you now that you are united with Jesus with the Holy Spirit living inside you. Especially read Augustine’s “On Faith and Works” and “On the Spirit and the Letter”, a man Protestants claim to appreciate. He taught works performed after Holy Spirit filling through baptism are meritorious and justify us, and one can lose this justification if one falls away. He didn’t just make it up, it’s what the Bible teaches.
I am not alone, all the Protestant New Perspectives on Paul authors (NT Wright, EP Sanders, Matthew Bates etc), Federal Vision (Peter Leithart), and even some Reformed mavericks (Cornelius Van Til, Norman Shepherd, Greg Bahnsen) agree that the Bible teaches initial salvation apart from works, but that continued justification and final justification is by faith and good works performed by Christ through you (so still made possible only by faith).
For an example of why Winger’s Lordship Salvation perspective is inadequate, consider his lame argument that Romans 2 is hypothetical. Paul is LITERALLY quoting Jesus, who says He will judge EVERY person according to his works (Matthew 16:27). How can this be? Simple. Jesus makes a way for us to live rightously, because He lives in us and is Himself righteous.
The key is understanding Paul was not talking about all works in some passages, only Jewish ceremonial works that are now replaced with faith in Jesus and baptism. But moral good works retain the same place in God’s plan, only now Jesus lives inside us and enables us to obey God’s righteous moral laws as intended and prophesied by Jeremiah chapt 31 and Ezekiel chapt 36.
I absolutely would love for you two to sit down and speak, as someone who's listens to hours and hours of his content and am genuinely considering Catholicism it would mean a great deal to me and many other. Much respect to you
I agree. Idk why “debate” is always the answer. I would love to see two people sit down with specific claims. Talk it over. Talk to us about the differences.
@@tookie36 maybe over dinner lol
@@itssmorphintime8496 most viewed video on both of their channels 😂
@@tookie36 1000%
Ephesians 2:8-9
Read and believe the word of God. Not a Catholic Bible.
God bless you.✝️📖❤️
I’m an ex-Catholic and look back at the faith and wonder how I ever believed in it. The gospel isn’t as complicated as the CC makes it out! Trust me the gospel isn’t just for the most intelligent folks of the world.
The gospel is very simple- Believe in Jesus and that he alone did the work on the cross to save you!! That’s it, he did it all.
Now if you believe and accept that he did it all for you then your life will be changed and then you’ll do good works because of that change. Bear much fruit (works) for his glory.
Literally that simple. I’ll never understand why people try to make it so much more complicated
This is what Catholics teach, don’t let the internet fool you, there’s a lot of false claims made about Catholicism out there, it’s clear all we need to do it believe and repent
@@_renz0005 The Catholic Church does it to justify their existence, and rationalize their countless overreaches throughout history.
The early church would disagree with you.
Follow your bishops.
believing in christ is also to believe his ministry and follow his teachings. Yet many ignore that completely
@@riki101 I’d rather follow the word of GOD.
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
It’s all about Jesus and him only.
Did anyone notice how Trent constantly used logical fallacies to avoid answering Mike?
@@Pablo19625 1) Your posts are ironic. You accuse me of having too much time on my hands, and then post long comments that are considerably deeper into the weeds than mine --- and, I have to add, off the main topic of Sola Fide. So let’s get back to that.
James says that a man is justified by his works, and “not by faith alone.” And because of this, and because of Jesus’ parable about the sheep and the goats, and because of Paul’s statements that I quoted to you, Catholics believe exactly what James said, that a man is justified by his work in addition to his faith, and is NOT justified by his faith alone. You counter by parroting the words offered by Protestants and Church dissidents for a millennium - that “real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not THE CAUSE of salvation; works are THE EVIDENCE of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works.” But this contradicts James. Nowhere does James say that works are necessary only as a demonstration of faith or only as evidence of faith. So, while it is true that “real saving faith is demonstrated by good work,” this is not the full reason for the necessity of works. Again, James does not say that the function of works is only to demonstrate real faith. Rather, he says that works are a necessity for salvation.
You also counter with “Works are not THE CAUSE of salvation.” AGREED! But your statement is a perfect example of a strawman. Catholicism never taught that works are THE cause of salvation. Protestants often attribute this false belief to Catholics, but it at best negligent to do so. At worst, it is a downright lie. Catholics believe that in addition to faith, there must be works - NOT so as to evidence a faith which alone is necessary (a heresy) --- but as a separate, necessary condition on which salvation is given by God. It is critical here to remember Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats. Now, if condition “A” is necessary to the occurrence of a subsequent event “B,” then “A” is a CAUSE of “B”. Not necessarily THE cause, but A cause. Thus, works are A necessary condition, not THE necessary condition, to the subsequent event - the salvation of your soul. You have willingly bought the lie that according to Catholicism, works are THE CAUSE of salvation. In addition, you falsify, through sheer sophistry, James’s statement that justification is by works and not by faith alone.
Further, if salvation is by faith alone, then a “demonstration” of real faith is not necessary. If faith is real, then certainly God does not need additional EVIDENCE of it in the form of works - as though without that evidence, God does not know whether your faith is real. That is absurd. So, if not God, for whom is this “evidence,” this “demonstration,” necessary? Your fellow man? Ludicrous! God doesn’t give a tinker’s damn what your fellow man thinks of your worthiness of salvation. So your works-as-a-demonstration-of-faith argument is illogical on both of the grounds I just mentioned.
You go on to say that 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 supports you because there, Paul discusses “true faith that saves versus false faith that is dead.” But there, Paul says nothing about “true faith that saves versus false faith that is dead.” Nor does he say anything about salvation being by faith alone. On the contrary, he says that bad works will cost you your soul. Paul reiterates that works count in the decision as to whether we are saved. Please tell me how your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is consistent with the parable of the sheep and the goats.
2) You stand on Sola Fide but you don’t follow Luther or Calvin, for whom Sola Fide was their rock? Whom DO you follow? You say Jan Hus is a hero of yours. I understand; he continually resisted immorality by Church fathers, and for that, he should be honored. But remember that the deposit of the faith is not the same as the morality of the men who lead the Church. I am a Catholic, not because I believe in many of the corrupt men in the hierarchy, but because of the deposit of the faith.
Sadly that seems to be his usual strategy. He sets up a strawman then knocks it over.
@@BirchKSTdon't forget gaslighting and moving the goal post. And the use ad hoc post propter hoc
I.e. they blame the post modernism on protestants
Even tho most protestant hate post modernism.
We bemoan wats going on.
Yet roman and eastern both do this.
The amount of people in the comment section arguing on their own motives is just absurd.😂
59:00 That the CCC uses merit instead of earned is not important - and Trent himself clarifies this in his more recent video, and thanks Mike for giving him the opportunity of doing so. The authors of the CCC (as was Trent) are intentionally trying to keep complex jargon from the documentation. But even if they don't use terms like strict or condign merit to describe the merits of Christ when he gives himself up for the sins of the world, it is understood to be that way. Clearly, only Christ can merit salvation in this way, for us.
I have a question bothering me, how do you interpret Mike's words when he says at 1:01:36 and also at 1:02:18 ( where after reading several small paragraphs from the catechism which uses the word _"merit",_ Mike says "It's the same word used, and I am _meriting_ eternal life just like Jesus _merited_ my eternal life" )
Personally, I rather have the impression that he mixes his brushes and does not know how to distinguish between the ( strict ) merits of Christ *that only He* can have and ours.
I can also add 1:02:36 when he says "... It uses the same word in the _same sentence_ to refer to jesus' action of meriting and mine, same _same sense."_
Thank you sir for coming out cause you are representing other people who also need to understand the gospel and for some reasons couldn't ask questions or come out to say that they don't understand, and thank🙏 you pastor Mike for explaining this matter again , so that this gospel of the kingdom reaches people who listen to you and they can't deny that they heard about Christ 🙏
Mike, please please talk to Trent. It doesn’t look good when you don’t want to engage in a casual conversation about these topics. Everyone wants to see it.
I was raised in catholicism. I was saved by GRACE through FAITH in Christ when I was 19 through the Jesus movement. I am 71. I appreciate your dedication and attempts to "explain" catholicism. This episode reminded me just how lost I was . I went through 13 years of catholic schooling; never ever opened a Bible. We used catechisms and missals. Never heard the gospel preached with sole credit for salvation on Christ's glorious sacrifice. Actually I was told in 8th grade (by a nun) that the only chance I had of ever going to heaven was through martyrdom because I was altogether to rotten to get there any other way.
So bad Catholic education= Catholic Church is wrong? How does that logically follow?
@@jaggedplanet He did not say that. But anyway not preaching the gospel is a serious problem.
So sorry for that experience but I can assure you as a Catholic I cannot relate at all. I love being Catholic because of the teachings and I ask everyone to listen to good Catholics on what we actually believe.
Fellow former Roman Catholic here. I know where you are coming from. I was encouraged by pope Benedict to read the Bible and I took his advice and it led me out of Catholicism.
@@shooterdownunder There are many former protestants who have studied the scriptures front to back for most of their life and became Catholic (Scott Hahn who was a famous former pastor was also influenced by Pope Benedict for example.)...What's your point?
Mike, have an actual conversation with Trent.
Why if the guy is just gonna lie and misrepresent
Why did Trent not have an actual conversation with Mike? Mike did a series on catholicism directed to his church. Trent got after him. So he started this.
@@laurapiovan in Trent's rebuttal video for this video he said he asked Mike for a direct conversation but Mike declined
Mike first needs the humility to consider even the possibility that HE might be wrong and that HIS assumptions COULD be faulty
Mike would get destroyed, he'd never debate Trent
I’m impressed with how well you’ve studied the Catholic catechisms and councils.
And through Protestant lenses.. he would only misinterpret them as he did in this video.
@@endofall12 for example ?
One of the problems with the Catholics is they will claim first that you don’t study. Then if you do study they will say you can’t understand it properly when you are outside of the faith.
One Catholic put it this way..
You don’t have any books.
But even if you had books it doesn’t mean you read them.
But even if you read them it doesn’t mean you understand them.
But even if you understand them it doesn’t mean you applied them.
But even if you applied them it doesn’t mean they were books of any real value.
Like… ok!
@@JonathanGrandt
Idk learn to read lol
@@JonathanGrandt Who cares what catholics think. Look at them, on their knees befor idols. That says everything.
I was cradle Catholic. Grew up in the 80s. Went to mass every sunday. Had all the Sacraments. Lived like the devil no fear of God's wrath. Untill 2019 aged 58 read the Bible to know who God is and be more Catholic,but found out Catholic teaching is not what's in the Bible ( not all but some) left that church now in non denomiation Bible teaching church. No regrets.
Dude go back before it’s too late. The Catholic Church created the Bible. Tell me whatever teaching troubles you and I’ll clear it up
@@basedzealot3680 The catholic church and the Roman catholic church are 2 very different things. The RCC thinks they are one and the same but they are not. THE RCC was not coalesced until Gregory the Great consolidated power of "the church" in Rome in around 600. The Bible was well established before even then . All that the RCC did was canonize scripture due to ML thesis causing a stir in the 1500's. Christ's Church, like God, is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow but the RCC changes like the wind; constantly updating itself to seduce and induce new subscriber growth into it's economy of salvation.
I will grant the RCC one thing they did first: it was the commoditization of fear and anxiety.
I absolutely love how you methodically, logically, and biblically go through every point of these tough issues with humility and academic rigor. I appreciate all the examples you give of how to seriously deal with other worldviews.
Paul’s letters on justification focus on rebuking the heresy that humans can be saved through the works of the law and apart from the grace of God. “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (Rom 3:28). He sometimes shortens it to just “works,” but he does clarify often by saying “of the law” (Rom 3:20 and 28, Gal 2:16). He also talks primarily about the initial justification of someone, which is through faith that leads the believer to baptism. Ephesians 2:8 is one place that demonstrates that he’s talking about a past event for the Ephesians that are already Christians. “you have been saved.”
However, salvation is not only a past event. The Bible also describes salvation as an on going (Phil 2:12) and a future event (Rom 13:11). Being saved when we first became Christians doesn’t mean that we won’t fall away in the future. We can sin after we’ve been saved, but God forgives our sins through a repentful confession. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8-9). This shows that we can become unrighteousness again (through mortal sin), but we can be forgiven through God’s grace, hence we are not once saved always saved. In Acts 13:43, Paul urged the Christians in Antioch to, “continue in the grace of God,” which implies that we could not continue in the grace of God.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is clear in paragraphs 1987-2029 that justification comes from the grace of God. Conversion comes by grace (CCC 1989), it is only by God’s grace that we can do good works (CCC 2008), and it is through grace that we are able to continue to live with God (CCC 2000).
As we continue Christian lives, we shouldn’t have faith alone, but we should have faith and good works (works that we can do as a result of the grace of God). St. James writes his letter to those who already, “hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jas 2:1). In this different context from Paul’s letters, he says, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24). So, for Christians who have already converted, good works are essential for increasing our righteousness, or in other words sanctifying us, or in other words conforming ourselves to Christ. Continued justification or sanctification is separate from initial justification. Through God’s grace, we need to be all in for the Lord. Jesus said, “And then many will fall away . . . But he who endures to the end will be saved”
(Mat. 24:10 and 13). Saved is future tense, and those verses shows we can fall away, but must remain in Christ to be saved.
The Gospel says, “And behold, one came up to him, saying, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And he said to him, ‘Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments’”
(Mat 19:16-17). Jesus continues to list commandments, then tells the rich man to sell all he has; all of these commands are what he tells the man to inherit eternal life. Jesus did not say that because you believed in me at one point in your life, you are saved from all sins forever. So, we should keep his commandments and remain in Him through good works.
@@johne2815 Amen
@@johne2815 So in other words...saved is less than safe....justification is continually conditional upon ones works. Thats the opposite of what Paul teaches. Paul teaches that salvation through faith produces eternal safety.
I'd rather say that about Trent and his latest video in response to Mike's accusations that he misinterprets the Catholic church.
Moreover it made me learn a lot of things
My entire extended family is Catholic, my dad is one of 19 children, who are all good Catholics, my older 2 siblings were baptized in the Catholic church. My father had a moment of conviction when I was born and he decided to leave the Catholic church and not baptize me into the church. My great Aunts told my siblings that I was going to hell, there was a lot of strife, but in the end, I'm glad he did it. My 5 siblings and I all have a relationship with God that most of my Catholic cousins don't have.
Hi. Unfortunately you did not have a good understanding of the work of God in the Catholic Church; if you had, you certainly would have done everything possible to be a Catholic. Your great aunts sound like a bundle of fun, as well as being wrong, and misunderstand Catholic teaching. I suspect they were just shocked that your Father wasn't getting you baptised. Of the cousins that you have who are Christian, can I ask if they are Catholic Christians or Protestant Christians?
@Thomas B Hi Thomas.
Catholicism is a very large organism that has 1.2billion members and spans most of the globe and has a 2000 year history. It is very simplistic to say that "Catholicism is what drives so many kids and teens from religion, they try to force it onto children and say, do these things and you'll go to heaven" Maybe you mean that some teens do not like what the Church teaches?
A few questions for you my friend.
1. What do you mean by religion? Do you mean any faith organisation: Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Satan Worship? All of these can be deemed religions.
2. In what way does the Catholic Church force religion onto children? First of all this implies some sort of dark intention to "force" something onto children. That is just weird. In my experience, the Church is, unfortunately, so weak that it couldn't force enough air into a balloon! Being a Catholic is an entirely personal choice, even at a very young age.
3. You say that the Church says, "Do these things and you will go to heaven." Well, yes that is true, you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Master; you must obey Him; you must love your brothers and sisters as you love yourself. There are things we MUST do to gain eternal life, but it is Jesus who gives it to us through His live, death and resurrection. This is perfect Catholic stuff.
I have been a Catholic for many years, and I am not aware of it being a religion that demands that I just follow rules. However, I do have, what I believe, is a "true" relationship with Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour, the one who has had mercy on me.
Blessings on you and your family Thomas and have a very blessed new year in 2023.
Joe
@@PapaJoeWalsh Incorrect. All we do to gain eternal life is believe in Jesus
You won't go to hell for not being baptised baptism is for removing the stain of original sin and a sign one will raise the child in the faith.
@@ifeanyichukwu3644 What do you mean I believe in Jesus?
As a new christian, it’s kind of shocking to see the catholic apologists twist the Bible’s words to support their doctrine. I’m still trying to discover what we need to be saved & studying theology but truly it upsets me how anxiety inducing Catholic theology is. I’d have no problem with doing it if it was true, but it’s difficult
same can be said for protestants
@@DungNguyen-vn3eunot at all. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Very simple. His yoke is easy and his burden is light.
yes protestant do twist into their agenda thats why they have 100 different interpreations.@@countryboyred
@@countryboyred you really think it's that 2 dimensional 😂😂😂. Argue with the early Church fathers
Thank you for delivering important points. Thank you for your passion on this topic of defending the purity of the gospel. And thank you for your quirks and fun personality. It's very entertaining.
Horn wouldn't do all these rebuttals if you would engage him in person. There is a reason for the confrontation clause in our constitution.
Winger’s original videos was a series he did live, in his own church. It’s not Winger’s job to do apologetics for the Roman church, with his own parishioners. Hope that helps.
Horn did say he invites all those who oppose the Church to reach out to him personally to setup a debate and of course, most refuse.
@@littleone1656 What does “most refuse” mean? How do you know who’s refusing an open invitation that isn’t sent to anyone specific? I’ve read the Catholic church’s website on their scriptural evidence for what they believe and it’s all cherry picked and horribly out of context. There’s no real, sound biblical exegesis. For example explaining the mass sacrifice it basically says well yeah Jesus’ sacrifice was once and for all but look at these cherry picked, out of context verses that almost sound like they support our doctrine. They took “do this in remembrance of me” and created an entire other doctrine of sacrifice based on it that’s definitely not there. They pick something that they do or teach and try to find Bible verses for it instead of doing and teaching what the Word actually says. My mother in law was Catholic and she said they never read the Bible and mass was in Latin so they just didn’t know any better. She’s a reformed Protestant now.
Did you not watch the video? Mike explained why he won't debate Horn and frankly I can't blame him. A debate will often end up being more about rhetoric than facts and there's no guarantee that more clarity will come out of a debate, especially one with someone like Horn.
@@EazyMothafuckingE sounds more like he cannot face facts that expose his ignorance
I’m glad you did a video on Trent Horns video it was very helpful. Thank you
I can understand your frustration! Great job teaching, Mike.
I know this was done a while ago, but I just listened to it at work on spotify and finished it up at home. With that said, his misinterpretation of scripture got me riled up a few times and I had to stop the vid/spotify to try and keep an open mind. (lol I was getting angry) I REALLY don't like when people do that! Every "rebuttal" he had pertaining to your talking points were either misinterpreted (purposefully), misdirected (again, purposefully), or a flat out lie by omission. The analogies were stomach churning to put lightly. I feel for anyone who follows these teachings. I know we are supposed to give grace as we have received it, but these people who blatantly or ignorantly teach people this stuff are causing REAL harm to them =( I fell into some of these traps in the beginning of my walk. Then I started studying my Bible. Walked away from prosperity churches, Catholicism, and even the church I was brought up in. I am very happy that you exhibit the humbleness to tell us "don't take my word for it". To me shows your heart for getting the truth out rather than trying to be right. Thank you and God Bless Pastor Mike =)
Amen! I always feel the same way. Mike is much more gracious than I am & my blood boils at the lies the leaders/priests/ popes/ nuns tell their followers. Their practices are so unbiblical! And their pope is ushering in the one world religion. He’s demonic in every sense of the word. It’s a shame most of the catholics question nothing. They just do as told. Very sad. Thx for your post!
Very similar situation here. Was raised Catholic, had doubts always, left the church when I was saved (and actually knew what that meant). But the family members who helped me are possibly Word of Faith, some strange stuff I could never accept. So I finally learned myself by actually reading the Bible and daily trying to continue studying scripture. I like Mike because I found his teaching sound and in line with what I already believed. I pray all Christians can come together and know that none of us this side of heaven fully understand everything-it’s beyond our ability. One day we will. I hope the strife stops. God bless!
Trent made a video response to this video named "answering Mike Winger's accusation" several months ago, I hope you listened to it
@@lonelyberg1808 why should he? It doesn't seem like he has changed any by the accusatory language of the title!
Accusation! LOL
@@nicholastrudeau7581 What's funny ?Mike accused him of misinterpreting Catholicism, what's wrong with showing it in the title ?
I’d would donate $100 bucks to a charity of Mike’s choice to see this discussion. I’m going to donate anyways, but specifically to see Mike and Trent talk this out. Whose with me?
Winger has said no to multiple invitations so far as I know ... one in this thread from Matt Fradd
For what purpose?
🤚🏾
Religious and political debates just make both sides look ridiculous and petty. Instead of widening the divide, put your time, money and enthusiasm to good use in your community.
@Steven Grossman Watch WWE wrestling instead. It's a lot less idiotic.
I'm half an hour in (Catholic), and to be fair you make some good points, Mike. But hearing you reject baptismal regeneration forces me to conclude your version of Christianity is more than likely ahistorical and therefore probably wrong. That's without even addressing the Scripture.
Address Scripture
@@Nov_Net Day of Pentocost. They were baptized and saved. The Apostles said go, confess, and be baptized. Then every Christian on Earth for the next 1500 years believed in baptismal regeneration and worshipped Christ in this way.
@@Veritas1234 cite verse please
@@Nov_Net Rom 6:3-11. By baptism we become dead to sin and alive in Christ.
1 Pet 3:20-22. 8 were saved by water in the flood. Now were saved by water.
John 3:5. Some say this isn't about waster baptism. But the church fathers universally said it was. And John 3:22, immediately after this discourse, they start baptising.
Titus 3:5. 'Washing of rebirth' sounds a lot like baptism.
Mark 16:16 (if you accept the longer ending)
Acts 2:38. Repent and baptized are both linked to forgiveness of sins.
Acts 22:16
Gal 3:27
God bless. You don't have to be a Catholic to believe baptisms saves us.
@@Nov_Net Paul’s letters on justification focus on rebuking the heresy that humans can be saved through the works of the law and apart from the grace of God. “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (Rom 3:28). He sometimes shortens it to just “works,” but he does clarify often by saying “of the law” (Rom 3:20 and 28, Gal 2:16). He also talks primarily about the initial justification of someone, which is through faith that leads the believer to baptism. Ephesians 2:8 is one place that demonstrates that he’s talking about a past event for the Ephesians that are already Christians. “you have been saved.”
However, salvation is not only a past event. The Bible also describes salvation as an on going (Phil 2:12) and a future event (Rom 13:11). Being saved when we first became Christians doesn’t mean that we won’t fall away in the future. We can sin after we’ve been saved, but God forgives our sins through a repentful confession. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8-9). This shows that we can become unrighteousness again (through mortal sin), but we can be forgiven through God’s grace, hence we are not once saved always saved. In Acts 13:43, Paul urged the Christians in Antioch to, “continue in the grace of God,” which implies that we could not continue in the grace of God.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is clear in paragraphs 1987-2029 that justification comes from the grace of God. Conversion comes by grace (CCC 1989), it is only by God’s grace that we can do good works (CCC 2008), and it is through grace that we are able to continue to live with God (CCC 2000).
As we continue Christian lives, we shouldn’t have faith alone, but we should have faith and good works (works that we can do as a result of the grace of God). St. James writes his letter to those who already, “hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jas 2:1). In this different context from Paul’s letters, he says, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24). So, for Christians who have already converted, good works are essential for increasing our righteousness, or in other words sanctifying us, or in other words conforming ourselves to Christ. Continued justification or sanctification is separate from initial justification. Through God’s grace, we need to be all in for the Lord. Jesus said, “And then many will fall away . . . But he who endures to the end will be saved”
(Mat. 24:10 and 13). Saved is future tense, and those verses shows we can fall away, but must remain in Christ to be saved.
The Gospel says, “And behold, one came up to him, saying, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And he said to him, ‘Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments’”
(Mat 19:16-17). Jesus continues to list commandments, then tells the rich man to sell all he has; all of these commands are what he tells the man to inherit eternal life. Jesus did not say that because you believed in me at one point in your life, you are saved from all sins forever. So, we should keep his commandments and remain in Him through good works.
I was Catholic my whole life, attended private Catholic school. You have a great understanding of the Catholic Churches teachings and are very accurate. They just don’t see how wrong it really is, still clouded with eyes unopened. I pray for them
Probably a fake Catholic (in name only).
My upbringing was the same as yours and I'm so thankful God sent a friend to share Truth with me. And yes, the Catholics still teach works for "grace". I visit the Catholic church with my 93yr old Dad sometimes. The Catholics haven't changed much.
What I have seen from Trent is that he is fond of logical fallacies. That doesn’t mean he is wrong. But it does raise concerns that he consistently resorts to these.
Yes I noticed that too. A lot of them! I'm a little disappointed. Although I'm Evangelical, I appreciate others views that are different from mine if they're well thought out. I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far. As far as Catholics go, I like Matt Fradd or Michael Knowles better.
@@thefriesens1071 I agree 100%
I think that Mike wanted some of the haters out of the comment section too 😂
I’ve had mini-arguments with some Jehovas witnesses and Catholics in here and they basically comment “I’m right because I said so” and don’t watch the vids
Which logical fallacies have you seen?
Like what? What fallacies did he use?
Logical fallacies are well described. Check out on line then rewatch the video. I am sad that he uses devices to “win the debate” instead of talking with a brother to arrive at truth.
You criticize Trent for doing a play/pause critique and then proceed to play/pause critique. Why not just debate him? Or have a roundtable discussion? There are plenty of offers on the table.
Catholic Church System
Just remember... the JESUITS are MASTERS AT MANIPULATING THE CONVERSATION and TWISTING THE BIBLE TRUTHS TO try and DECEIVE YOU into the Catholic Church System theology,
WHICH they proudly ADMIT is BASED on their MAN-MADE TRADITIONS and RULES and NOT ON THE BIBLE ...
(See Catholic Church System Quotes Below)
They say tradition is more important than the Bible...
And that they have the power to change anything they want and Jesus has to adhere to it!
ALL THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS OF THE REFORMATION KNEW and preached and WARNED that the LITTLE HORN BEAST POWER OF DANIEL AND REVELATION WAS the ANTICHRIST ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH SYSTEM, and
that THEY would be the
MARK OF THE BEAST POWER that would ENFORCE the FALSE WORSHIP that REV 13 shows is the result of not keeping the Bible truths and God's commandments, but man's /SATAN'S COUNTERFEIT DAY AND AGENDA.... !!!
The Jesuits were formed to try and throw everyone off track and to confuse what the prophecies of Dan and the Revelation actually said; (which they have successfully done) as most people don't even understand what the Protestant Reformation / prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are about... AND the TIMELINE AND EVENTS that POINTED to this COUNTERFEIT ROMAN CATHOLIC WORSHIP SYSTEM ...!
[Roman Catholic Church System Quotes:]
Pope Nicholas said of himself:
“I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do... wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods. Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in MY POWER to DISPENSE with ALL THINGS,
yea WITH THE PRECEPTS OF CHRIST.”
(Decret. par. Distinct 96 ch. 7 edit. Lugo 1661)
The RC New York catechism states: “The POPE TAKES THE PLACE OF JESUS CHRIST ON EARTH... by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the SUPREME JUDGE OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, the judge of all, being judged by no one,
GOD HIMSELF ON EARTH.”
"Protestants ...
ACCEPT SUNDAY
rather than SATURDAY
as the day for public worship AFTER THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MADE THE CHANGE...
But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ...
IN OBSERVING SUNDAY, THEY ARE ACCEPTING THE AUTHORITY OF
the spokesman for the Church,
THE POPE ."
Our Sunday Visitor,
February 5th, 1950.
is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: WHY DO WE OBSERVE SUNDAY INSTEAD OF SATURDAY?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TRANSFERRED THE SOLEMNITY FROM SATURDAY TO SUNDAY.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have SUBSTITUTED the observance of SUNDAY the first day of the week, FOR the OBSERVANCE of SATURDAY THE SEVENTH day,
A CHANGE FOR WHICH THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174
"... you may read the BIBLE from GENESIS to REVELATION,
and you will NOT FIND A SINGLE LINE AUTHORIZING THE SANCTIFICATION OF SUNDAY.
The SCRIPTURES ENFORCE the RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE OF SATURDAY,
a day which we never sanctify."
The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.
"But SINCE SATURDAY, NOT SUNDAY,
is SPECIFIED
IN THE BIBLE,
isn't it curious that NON-CATHOLICS WHO PROFESS to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, OBSERVE Sundays INSTEAD OF SATURDAY? YES, of course, it is INCONSISTENT; but this change was made ....[AND].
THEY have CONTINUED the CUSTOM,
even though it RESTS UPON THE AUTHORITY of the CATHOLIC CHURCH and NOT UPON AN explicit TEXT IN THE BIBLE.
That OBSERVANCE remains as a reminder of the MOTHER CHURCH from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair."The Faith of Millions
"OF COURSE the CATHOLIC CHURCH CLAIMS that
the CHANGE
WAS HER ACT.
And the ACT IS "A MARK"
of her ECCLESIASTICAL POWER AND AUTHORITY in RELIGIOUS MATTERS.''
C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895
JESUS SAID:
Isaiah 8:16
Bind up the TESTIMONY,
"SEAL" THE LAW
among MY DISCIPLES.”
Isaiah 8:20
“To the LAW and to THE TESTIMONY: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
[The Roman Catholic Church System proudly admits they do not follow the Bible. ..]
''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ.
The PROTESTANT CLAIMING THE BIBLE TO BE THE ONLY GUIDE OF FAITH,
has NO WARRANT for OBSERVING SUNDAY.
In this matter the SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST IS THE ONLY CONSISTENT PROTESTANT.''
The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.
"Perhaps the
BOLDEST THING,
the MOST REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE
the [CATHOLIC] CHURCH ever DID, happened in the first century.
THE HOLY DAY, THE SABBATH,
WAS CHANGED FROM SATURDAY to SUNDAY. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, NOT FROM ANY DIRECTIONS NOTED IN THE SCRIPTURES,
but from the
CHURCH'S SENSE OF ITS OWN POWER........
PEOPLE WHO THINK that
THE SCRIPTURES SHOULD BE THE SOLE AUTHORITY,
should LOGICALLY become
7th DAY ADVENTISTS,
AND KEEP SATURDAY HOLY."
Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
Please read "The Great Controversy" 1800 version by Ellen G. White
And/or
"Daniel and the Revelation"
1800 version by Uriah Smith
And/or TH-cam
"Milineum of Prophecy Seminar" by Doug Batchelor
And /or TH-cam
"Total Onslaught Series by Prof Walter Veith
And/or TH-cam
"One World Religion: The Death of Protestantism" Pt 1, 2, 3, by John Wycliff
Is Catholics know exactly why he doesn’t just directly speak/debate Trent.
My Catholic upbringing was one that presented a Gospel that emphasized PURE GRACE, LOVE and DIVINE MERCY.
To be fair, Mike’s issue is NOT with Catholics. His issue is with the official teaching of the RCC which says that if any man says he is justified by faith alone, he is anathema.
How do you feel about the Pope?
@@shk9269 I don’t think he has any true authority
@@shk9269
Catholicism pointed to me the way to find Christ. Once the Holy Spirit took over, l was free from all other authority. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is LIBERTY. The Pope is a limited human being and in no way is he infallible. We must pray to God for everyone and that for the strongholds of the evil one be broken and the LIGHT to overcome over ALL.
Amen
@@Jagueyes1 okay. So you claim to be a catholic and you claim that the catholic teaching is biblical?
Well what do you have to do to go to heaven? Your answer to this question determines if you really know the Gospel or not.
i listened to about 20h of your. content yesterday and today, and i have yet to disagree with your views, im honestly suprised i found you, very glad thought. the thumbnails made me think youre playing the youtube game and dont have real things to say, but im astonished how deep u are in scripture and i hope i will learn how to properly aproach it to this depth in my lifetime, watching in part your videos :)
Did Mike ever do part 2 that he was talking about for this? I want to hear his rebuttal to the rest of Trent’s video!
Very good, Mike!
Having a background in Mormonism, (another grace + works system), the simplest way for me to understand the biblical concept of grace was this: I cannot merit/ earn/ deserve salvific grace by my good works, either to receive it or to keep it. It is all done by God, through His own power.
Because God’s standard is the same in both cases: 100% perfection, which was only ever achieved by One Man. He begins and He takes it to perfect completion. And that’s why and how we can have true peace with Him in this life, and for eternity.
If you actually believed that "good works" make salvation be less about grace then you'd become a calvinist. 'Faith' is a work itself, since a human with free will must make a choice of whether or not to believe, thus producing something that comes from his own(not entirely God) being.
@@asggerpatton7169 What Scripture passages would you go to, to support your statement that faith is a work?
@@FromJosephtoJesus What do you exactly mean by that? You want me to provide verses that imply faith is a work or verses that support the logic behind faith being a work?
There isn't a verse that imply faith being something that some individuals are born with while others are not, or that faith is imposed into people regardless of their will, therefore faith should be something that partially comes from humans own work.
This is an argument from silence, but since there is no bible verse or passage implying that faith ISN'T a work, you'd have to use logic to arrive into this doctrine.
@@asggerpatton7169 Ah, but friend, the Bible is not silent on that. Scripture definition of salvific faith and grace is that it is not a work. We should go by the revelation of God’s work to is, and not lean in our own understanding.
Mike Winger did a good job of showing in the biblical text, where God has already given us His instruction on that.
Blessings to you.
@@FromJosephtoJesus Where does it say that faith is not a work as you just said it? Grace is not a work of the receiver, but how could faith not be?
The famous verse ''You have been saved by grace through faith and not by works...'' does not imply that faith isn't a work for two reasons: 1. ''Works'' here refer to ''works of the mosaic law'' and 2. Salvation here is the origin of salvation, or how the possibility of eternal life came into being as a gift from God.
Sure, ''works'' can be seen here in their general meaning, but the specification on refering to ''works of the law'' means that these verses talk about the usefulness of works exclusive to the old covenant of the jews in contrast to the new faith(read: religion/covenant) which is based on Jesus life, deah and resurrection.
When ''works'' can be seen in those verses as generally doing good things, its contrast is not with faith, but with the gifting of enternal life, which came from God's own will and Jesus death and resurrection.
If those verses talked specifically about works in general, then protestants would have at least a start, but doubtly a finish, considering how from beginning to end the bible shows that works are necessary to please God.
Wow, thank you so much for that breakdown of Romans discussing being justified by faith vs. being justified by works. I can’t believe I missed the fact that Paul was building a case. I always wondered why in one part of Romans he says justified by works and in another justified by faith. Now it makes sense!
In many of his writings, Paul is speaking of JEWISH works of the law… the Old Covenant, not being effective for salvation. This is from a Catholic perspective. Check out the writings of the early Church Fathers (the full writings, not Protestant summaries or edits of them). God bless you & yours! :)
Is there a playlist of this complete debate and all related videos? I am jumping in late and as both parties are two of the most comprehensive, kind and God loving people I have ever been blessed to listen to, I really would love to hear there points.
Very insightful, informative and in many ways reassuring. So many good points were made here theologically because the scriptures weren’t parsed out for convenience but read in fuller context for clarity. The ending there was the cherry on top and to paraphrase “don’t be swayed one way or the other by rhetoric, use discernment”. That’s been so true as I continue to learn and grow in faith by listening to these commentaries on the issues that separate RCC from Protestant beliefs. Thank you Mike for your investment in a well presented rebuttal.
Nice! Clash of two of my favorite Christian podcasters. Definitely bookmarking this to listen to later.
Update: Just finished listening after doing a little each day. What I know for sure is that I am one of those people who gets pulled back and forth based on what I listened to most recently (assuming it is at least of a reasonable quality level). I'll try to dig into the arguments more deeply. I'm tired of being caught between Catholicism and Protestantism. I'll have to just continue to study and pray for clarity.
It's tough to know if Trent is truly misrepresenting the Catholic perspective or if he is providing a genuine portrayal of the Catholic perspective because there is so much Catholic dogma out there - the councils, the Bible, the Aprocrypha, the writings of the church fathers, the teaching of the pope while he is on St. Peter's chair. You may have found something from a council that seems to contradict the way Trent portrays Catholicism, but you may be misunderstanding it in light of all this other writing and teaching within the church that's out there.
But you definitely made some good points about Trent misrepresenting what you say, which calls into question how he is representing Catholicism. It's annoying how he seems to set up straw man arguments. It makes me wonder about his arguments for the existence of God and his handling of atheism because Trent's apologetic videos helped give me the confidence to be born again. It would be interesting to see you review one of Trent's debates with atheists or arguments for the existence of God. There's probably a lot more common ground there.
Thanks for the great content! We appreciate whatever videos you do and they are always helpful and fun to listen to.
@@maxrice6990 Give us a second update
@@maxrice69902nd update?
Trent doesn’t mean anything by his tone. It’s his “I’m thinking carefully” voice. I can see how it can come off as hostile tho.
I’m a Protestant, but he’s one of my favorite modern Catholic apologists. Only a fool refuses to listen to Catholic apologists, as they often share beliefs with us, and can also make us think harder about our differences.
Only honest engagement helps you evaluate your position.
Brother, I would disagree with you on this. The Roman Church is very visibly apostate, teaching that Allah is the same God as the one we worship.
*But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)
But either God contradicts himself or the Roman magisterium is teaching heresy and leading people astray. Which do you think is more likely? It seems pretty clear that Allah is an enemy of Christ.
Revelation 17:14
*They will make war on the Lamb* , and the Lamb will conquer them, for *he is Lord of lords and King of kings* , and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, *King of kings* and Lord of Lords.
Sahih al-Bukhari
Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 224
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The *most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection* , will be (that of) *a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings* ).
@@solacanonicascriptura6139 ah i find you here as well. So youre the type of christian that woukd relegate all muslims to hell, simply for being muslim. You have no compassion or charity in your heart. Does Christ actually work through you then?
@@AthanaSus Why don't you ask Florence that question because they condemned ALL outside the communion of Rome to hell. :)
*The Council of Florence (1441)* the Bull Cantata Domino: It *firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire* which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that *no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church* .
And I'm going to ask you if you consider Islam to be a heresy? BEcause the 4th lateran council anathemized all heretics. :)
*Fourth Lateran Council (1215)* , Canon 3: We *excommunicate and anathematize every heresy* raising itself up against this holy, orthodox and catholic faith which we have expounded above. *We condemn all heretics, whatever names they may go under* . They have different faces indeed but their tails are tied together inasmuch as they are alike in their pride.
@@solacanonicascriptura6139 ok? Nice references btw. Those are all true statements. And no one has been condemned to hell in the Church (though the damned do exist), rather we hold out hope that through the abundant mercy of God, even those outside of the Church through no fault of their own will still be granted the beatific vision.
The difference between a Catholic and a Protestant when they debate is that the Catholic always argues through Catholic lens with the intent to not only affirm their position but present it in a format as such that Catholicism cannot be false but is really the progenitor and gatekeeper of all Christian doctrine and theology. The Protestant on the other hand just wants the Catholic to come back to Christ. Also, their audiences are different in the sense that the Catholics will treat their opponent as they're either a liar, ignorant, a weak debater and/ or were a weak Catholic (If they were once one). Protestants are just happy to see the truth.
Oh yes, the Truth was found in a Protest? Where's that found in the Bible? I think what you're really trying to say is that the Truth is found in the Church , a Church founded by Christ , the pillar and foundation of the sameTruth ( singular ) . Protestants are all over the place when it come to the Truth, they just label biblical interpretations as their own inspirations and with that a scattered Christian flock following the same scattered theology. Congratulations on the Reformation that reformed nothing.
@@jgood3047 you don’t need an expert to understand the simple gospel that came through Jesus Christ. No where in the NT do you see people praying to Mary. We can pray directly to God. Catholicism and Islam have many similarities: the idea you need an expert to explain to you the text ie pope vs imams. This is clearly why Catholics killed many Protestants… it’s all about power. If the pope is infallible and from God then you cannot question what he does and same goes for Muslims that follow Mohammed, they cannot critique him since they claim he is the best man to ever live. It’s also very telling seeing the fruits of Roman Catholicism: rampant pedophilia, acceptance of Islam and lqbtq agenda.
@@johnsey2625 Spoken like a progressive Democrat, Congratulation ! Your've now entered the Dark Side. Hilarious! And men can get pregnant!
@@jgood3047 If it’s not apparent, I am not Roman Catholic. Are you saying that these issues: pedophilia, embrace of Islam and LGBTQ are nonexistent in Catholicism?
It honestly seems like Protestants hate the mention of good works because they don't want to do any of them.
I like both you and Trent. It seems to me like you guys are talking past each other. This format of back and forth videos is awful. An actual conversation would be so helpful.
I really do not like hearing Catholics and Protestants arguing on this subject. I'm a former Protestant, now a Catholic, so I've walked on both sides. You can literally find 100 arguments for or against this argument throughout the Bible. I think on this issue it's an argument of semantics. If you "believe" or have "faith", you would believe (trust) in what Christ said. Christ told us to have faith, but also to do good. To love our neighbor, to be kind, to care for one another. Just as a parent is proud of their children when they look after a sibling, the Father is proud of us when do likewise. Christ commanded us to spread the Gospel throughout the world, not only in words but in our actions. If you really believe, if you really accept Christ, this is what you must do, otherwise do you really believe? Belief in Christ is not like having a belief in aliens, where they are out there but do not impact your life. Christ should impact your life, he should effect you and cause you to strive to do good in all things.
Sometimes, we lose the message through the details. Sometimes we feel like we cannot do as well as we'd like. You'll fail many times, but you have to keep trying. Do not let it discourage you, do not let it discount what Christ asked us to do. We see this in the old law of sacrifice, if you could not afford a lamb then bring two doves. If you could not afford two doves then bring flour. We see it in the Gospels where the woman gives two coins because it's all she has and Christ recognizes her sacrifice. We are not saved by works, but by Faith, that faith should cause us to do works... no matter how small. This is one of the things I love about St Therese of Lisieux, her philosophy of doing little things with great love.
I would also ask that you have compassion for one another as Protestants and Catholics. We spend so much time arguing details with each other, espousing condemnation and venom that we are not spreading the Gospel to those that need it. I see so many evil comments directed towards one another, and so little effort to understand or at least concede that the other side might have valid arguments. I see so many comments where one side tells the other side what they believe, who they worship and they're wrong. Is that what Christ wants you to do? You should know in your heart. I know in my heart who I follow, who I worship, who I love, who I strive to please. You cannot tell me otherwise.
Those are my thoughts, I hope and pray that the peace of our Lord is with you and that you may walk in His love and grace.
Well, I don't think it's a matter of semantics. As a former Catholic, I think the teaching on salvation is crucially important and that the distinction between the Catholic merit based system and the Protestant free gift of grace is a fundamental.
BUT:
You're 150% right about tone and lack of charity. Spot on. I looked at a few of my comments and they aren't great overall, and some of the commenters here seem to think Jesus wanted us to be vicious.
We should debate over the fundamentals while still loving each other, and not a faux, dead-letter love.
Welcome home!!!!
@@SeanusAurelius Sorry you left. You left the one true Catholic church of Jesus. You can always come back.
@@johnyang1420 I have faith in Jesus. That's all that's required. "Blessed is the man who will never be charged with sin".
@@SeanusAurelius the Catholic Church isn’t a merit based system, no work you can do will get you to heaven, but faith is justified by works.
This is the good and bad with the Bible being separated as it is... It's great because we are able to quickly reference a certain segment of a letter or book of the bible, but we so often take these larger ideas from the books/letters out of context because we have separated them with chapters and verses
Completely agree. We tend to parse things out, removing any context. We have to remember that these books were written as completely contained arguments/narratives. They are meant to be understood as a whole, not piecemealed out. It is amazing how much of a difference it makes when you read all the way through verses just pulling out random quotes, especially for passages like James c which gives many trouble.
@@douglasmcnay644 Absolutely! A Bible teacher I know is fond of saying, "A text without a context, separated from its co-text (what the rest of the Bible says on the subject) is a pretext"
Lol u think ppl didn't butcher the Bible before it had chapters?
@@arcguardian lol is that what I said
Applying a text speaki6 of the remnants of Israel as a guide for gentiles...
“Poisoned Well” is an excellent conclusion
to describe the RC government itself.
Scripture is only 1 of 3 sources used,
and the pope.
May every individual truth seeker find The Truth as in “ I am the way, The Truth & the life” aka
The Truth = Jesus.
I know that the Catholic Church relies on tradition not just the scripture. But the scripture says that all our good works are like filthy rags so how on Earth could our good works Merit one iota of justification for our salvation??? I know that our good works after we have been saved and evidence of our Eternal gratitude for God's graciousness and a reflection of our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ but still, well Justified we are still not completely Sanctified and therefore our works are still quite filthy is humbly as we may try to do them. Only when we have been granted the the privilege to work for Christ our Lord in the Heavenly Kingdom will our good works finely reflect God's Perfection that he has made us into.
23:30
Two stages of salvation don't mean two different ways of obtaining salvation. You won't read that in the Council of Trent if you actually read the document on justification instead of canon 32.
The two stages are obtaining salvation and not losing your salvation before you die. I believe Mike doesn't understand this because he probably believes in once saved always saved.
Mike doesn't belive in OSAS. See e.g. his argument with James White.
There isn't 2 stages. Ur either a child of Satan or a child of God.
What you said is what I perceived he said, but I'm glad you posted this in case someone else heard something different
@@SeanusAurelius
That does mean anything. Some protestants are not Calvinists who believe in once saved always saved.
Mike argument against James White shows Mike doesn't believe in predestination.
Why is it a surprise that before Christ dwells in you, Him coming to dwell in you (salvation) is a free gift? And Once Christ dwells in you, you work with Him to become more like Him.
Just trying to explain it another way because 2 stages of salvation seem to throw protestants off because it doesn't directly say in the Bible 2 stages of salvation.
If justification is continuous in the Christian life, what is sanctification in RC theology?
I’ve personally found this helpful: Justification=freedom from the penalty of sin Sanctification=freedom from the power of sin
Glorification=freedom from the presence of sin
Thanks Mike. I find your videos incredibly valuable. Thanks for doing what you do.
The terms were invented as a distinction developed. Before the evolution of terms -> justification covered both the freedom from the penalty of sin, and the freedom from the power of sin. Thus justifying in RC has two modes First (and initially) it frees us from the penalty of sin that is if one has (>0, infinity) justifying grace they are saved and will go to heaven, and (at the first instance as well as each other instance in the process) it frees us from the power of sin, and this freedom scales with the amount of justifying grace we have thus more grace more freedom from sin..as we do pious deeds we can even more justifying grace and are even further removed from sin. (Read you bible and pray and seek God with all your heart and you're less likely to do evil and wicked things)
You're right. That is very helpful. 😊
Do we choose faith once or every day and continually work towards improving and growing ourselves in Christ? So is faith a conscious desicion that grows throughout your life or do we need work at faith in order to grow?
I too was raised Catholic went to 8 years of Catholic School. I had never held a Bible in my life save the Giant family Bible w/ our family tree & a big pic of the pope of the day on it. At 25 I thought we’ll I say I believe the Bible & I love Jesus but I wanted to be closer to him so I got a King James Bible. I began to read. As I read. I read have no images I’m a jealous God have no mediator only Christ & I had a priest in a confessional. It said not to pray in vein repetition , , rosary call no man father but your father in heaven. I thought. Do they know this is in here? Someone says to Jesus praise the womb that birthed u & Jesus says NO! It says your good works are dirty rags. Also it made clear that once you die it’s done. You can’t hold masses or pray for the dead. It won’t get them into heaven ! I was first told as a child I could not touch the host ( communion wafer ) only the priest for it is the very holy body of Christ & I could not let my teeth touch it & it always stuck on the roof of my mouth lol & I could never unstick it bcz I couldn’t touch it. Then suddenly in like middle school I could hold & touch the wafer. I mean the body of Christ? I thought the word of God was unchanging ? I was confused then in 8 th grade they told me there was no more purgatory !! Say what?? How did that happen I wondered? When I actually finally read the Bible I decided I had to follow the inerrant word of God & NOT tradition of men which is what Catholicism is! On my ( holy communion ) in 8 th grade I NEVER received the Holy Spirit nor did anyone in my class as we talked with each other. However at 26 I DID receive the Holy Spirit & yes I actually felt it happen & my adult baptism was amazing. Romans 6 came to life in my baptism. Dead to the old man & a new creature in Christ. My faith has been alive now for 30 years. Ever since I read the entire King James Bible at 25. I have read it many times over & over. I don’t even know how many times since that day. My kids were raised as born again Christians. The amazing thing ? Of 4 kids in my family my name is Rene’. Rene means to be reborn or to be born again. He really did hold me in his hands as I was formed. I was shocked after being born again to see my name meant that! My 3 siblings I have tried but a prophet in his own town….. as Christ said. One is still Catholic but not at all practicing. One is Lutheran & not practicing & last my brother sadly has told me his an atheist however he was an Alter Boy he use to say he wanted to be a Priest but a Priest touched my brother in a bad way & now he has zero faith in God sadly. I have tried to tel him even priests are just men. He is sickly & thin & 66. It makes me so sad I can’t get him a life line an eternal life line. I am so happy tho my kids have Christian spouses & plan to homeschool when the kids are old enough for school. God is so great. He saved me & my family.
As a Catholic, you never called us a cult and you said we are Christian!
All I heard is works not required, just faith in Jesus! That's over simplified I know.
Catholicism says:
Faith + works = salvation
Christianity says:
Faith = salvation + works
We don’t do good works to earn salvation from God or even maintain it. We do then because He already gave us salvation by His great love and grace, and it is the Spirit of the Living God with us who keeps us from falling away from Him
Yes!
@@SincerelyHannah9 Are Catholics Christian?
@@Normicgander Christian in the cultural and historical sense, yes. Christian in the sense of believing in the gospel of Christ and being saved? Not if they believe the message of Rome
@@AcidAdventurer interesting reply. But should final judgment be God's? 🤔
As a catholic, I can say God bless everyone
We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone apart from anything we do in the body 🙏
As a Buddhist I can say that, or as a Muslim, or as a Zoroastrian. A very nice sentiment, but are you saved? can you tell me that you are saved right now, and if you were to leave this world tonight you would be in heaven?
_"Not as the world giveth, give I unto you," says our Lord Jesus. If my Lord Jesus gives you salvation at this moment, you have it, and you have it forever. He will never take it back again; and if he does not take it from you, who can? If he saves you now through faith, you are saved-so saved that you shall never perish, neither shall any pluck you out of his hand (John 10:28)._ [Spurgeon]
Get saved! Amen.
@@nicerperson1 great comment 👍. Some good questions were given to hopefully open the eyes of the blind
@@nicerperson1 you can't say this either according to your doctrine of predestination
@@brandongoss6971 his comment is not 100% supported by Scripture.
I agree with you Mike. You should not debate with someone that is going to dispute you before you get started. Every one wants to be right. It is not a right and wrong issue. It is a truth issue. Stand strong and don't do debates.
Thank you! I think that was the best explanation of the "works and justification " in James I've ever encountered.
This was a very helpful video! I think something that could be overlooked is the tactics that some people use that are deceitful that they might not even realize are. So this was an important lesson and just being careful and how people use deceitful tactics like using an analogy about light and then going to a Bible verse that talks about light but the things are not connected. And you can't build the theology off of an analogy. I love how you mentioned that. But so often someone can sound very convincing by doing these little subtle things that to be honest, even I miss, and I like to think of myself as a logical thinker. I hope a lot of people learn about that and take that away from this lesson and apply it to everything not just roman Catholicism and Roman Catholic apologists. The cults do a lot of these tactics as well like Mormonism.
YES, LDS and J Witnesses both do not believe Jesus paid it all, they add their works because God's Grace is not enough? Theif on the cross alongside Jesus went to Paradise with grace and belief alone. Because of our ongoing life and faith,however, if we truly are Regenerated, we want to do good to obey and please God.
Why don't you go sit with Trent and talk with him?
Because Trent is a great debater. This guy can't risk being proved wrong
Just because he is a good debater doesn’t mean he’s right.
He is, but that's not the point.
Are we seeking The Truth or is it something else we sought?
He knows he will lose and his theology is wrong.
Ok, what was the source sited for sacred tradition so I can study this?
Listening while the baby sleeps and will probably not get a chance to comment later. Currently at about 41:40 where you're talking about the use of the term justification etc and I'm finding the clarity so helpful!
I've listened to so many of your videos and never really commented, but I so appreciate all the time you take to study and what you share. Keep up the good work, and may God always strengthen and encourage you as you face various... rebuttals. 😊
Yeah as an Orthodox I’d have to say mike doesn’t understand what the Catholics are saying about the increase in justification.
Because it makes zero sense.
@@florida8953 Lol yes it absolutely does. If one doesnt hold to a purely legalistic view of being justified or being made "righteous". Our view encompasses both, adoption as a child of God (legal) and being corrected and led by God (healing).
I'm a prot, and we just call that sanctification. As in: through faith in Christ you are justified in the eyes of God, and the Holy Spirit works with you to do good works and become more like Him while we are on this earth (sanctification).
To most protestants, a lack of works is an indicator that one may not have faith in Christ (and hence no justification in the eyes of God). Whether that's because one never had it or because they lost it is another discussion.
Those are just my thoughts, and I apologize if this is unclear. It's been a long day.
@@carpediem5316 yes but we would never say that Gods work is complete when we are legally adopted into His family. Moreover we would also say that we can indeed truly reject Him should we remain unrepentant in overt sin. Like if I remain a fornicator despite knowledge of the truth and the benefit of the teachings of Christ. Then I can no longer rest on the promises of Christ. If I don’t confess Him before men, he will deny me before His father.
@@EricAlHarb Confess your sin to Christ, He is just to forgive. No need to go to men as a prerequisite. Christian's fall all the time, every single Christian sins everyday. He that began a good work in you is faithful to complete it. Those given to Him, He will not let anyone snatch them out of His hands. He is the author and finisher of faith. The promise to Abraham depends on God, not man. God swore on Himself. You cannot increase your righteousness. If you're asking how righteous you are and not how righteous Christ is, you're lost. That verse is not about confessing sins, but more about the fear of men over God. The curtain is torn in two, you can go to the throne of grace boldly. Rest in the righteousness of Christ alone.
Honestly, based off of Trent horns video, I don't think you would get a genuinely honest and fruitful debate. Glad you responded though.
Yea, Mike is too dishonest for that. Trent is actually responding very respectfully to blatant lies Mike either willfully or ignorantly uses to "debunk" Catholic Church. A free flowing conversation or even a debate format would expose Mike, there is no doubt about that. From the first few minutes of this response to rebuttal he is resorting to rethoric tricks in order to portray Trent in bad light. The guy is clearly a puppet master without any substance.
@@jakajakos actually Trent handled his rebuttal poorly. He didn't deny anything mike said but instead completely misrepresented Mike's statements. I can't listen to someone like Trent and believe they could debate in good faith.
I feel it’s the opposite. Tent always invites the person with opposing views to reach out to him for a debate and most of the time they need do. Also, mike is so arrogant to say/think he knows more than the actual Catholic theologians simply bc he spent hours learning about Catholicism. This would be like me saying that the Muslim Imam who spent as many hours learning about mikes belief’s knows better and more than Mike does about Christianity 🙄 Really?
As a Catholic, I'm regularly infuriated by Trent Horne. He's quite a bad Catholic apologist.
Why would you say that
Really interested in hearing your perspective on why.
Lol what? That's a hot take
17:40
I understood Trent perfectly. I feel like you're speaking down to people like you think they're idiots who will "get confused" if one dares articulate complex ideas precisely.
Mike, please arrange a discussion or debate with Trent
What does it mean in James 2 when James says that scripture was "fulfilled" in verse 23? All the study bibles I have skipped over that part of the verse or the verse entirely. I don't remember you talking about it either in other videos.
Verse 23
@@lukemartin7029 Thanks
Read verse 24 : See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Justification is completed by works; faith alone is not enough.
@@swoosh1mil You picked up the verse out of context.
Verse 14 questions the idea of faith that is apart from works. The quality of the faith is what is in question.
Verse 18 declares that you show people faith by works. Therefore, works are a mere demonstrator of faith.
Verse 22 further shows this by saying that works perfect the faith. They show it to be genuine.
Verse 23: And the scripture was fulfilled, that Abraham believed God.
There you have it, works fulfilled that he believed God. They showed his faith.
Abraham believed God, and it (faith) was counted to him as righteousness. His faith made him righteous
Now read verse 24: "You see that a man is justified by works and not faith alone." Why? Because works demonstrate the faith. Why else would he say that faith demonstrates works (verse 18). And why else would he say that faith is dead without works if works didn't demonstrate faith?
@@JosephLachh Verse 22 - I did a quick search and can't find any definition or synonym where"perfect" means "genuine". So I can only conclude that "perfect" in this sense means whole or complete not genuine as you have stated.
Wow.. interesting response to him. You're very clear on everything you said
Unfortunately Trent seems to have a very confused view on the teaching of Catholicism and what the Bible actually teaches. If Mike did misrepresent Catholicism then Trent did a very poor job of showing it. As Mike has said, it is so sad to see people come so close and affirm so many truths of God, Jesus, and the Bible, only to reject the most central message of the gospel. That is: salvation fully and completely by faith in the atoning action of Jesus death and resurrection. That is why (despite many similarities) I don’t consider Catholicism to be a view of Christianity, but rather something else entirely.
Have a great thanksgiving Pastor Mike! Thank you for another great video. :)
Thanks for this amazing analysis! I appreciate you coming back to the women's ministry topic too. I've been really curious about it. No rush though. I hope you bring it!
Thank you Mike for clarity on the errors of the Catholic Church.
I agree. These are all errors!!!!! He’s not teaching errors of the Catholic Church but his errors of the Catholic Church.
@@xxfreshpineapplesxx He knows more about the Catholic Church than most Catholics. Faith plus works is the most important error of the Catholic Church.
Understand the Catholic Church before you judge. This guy is a major liar and his arguments are extremely fallacious and wrong.
@@larrylim8050 He is trying to reach people like you that are being lead astray by a false religion. Faith alone saves and your church does not preach that so they are teaching a false gospel.
@@russmatthews2098 so you’re saying the early church is the false church? The church who brought together all the books of the old covenant and the new covenant were of a false church? The false church that brought the Bible together because all the books were spread throughout the region? The false teachings that brought the Bible to the world? So you want me to fall prey to a religion that put emphasis on persona interpretations over great debates and great martyrs who died for Christ church? You want me to take it a personal approach over Jesus who said he’ll never let His church fall? So you want me to believe one of the 40,000 plus churches over the church Christ established at Pentecost? Its Catholic tradition to question everything then form our beliefs through Devine revelation from the Holy Spirit, church teachings from the new and old covenant, and lastly tradition which speaks to our earthly senses that connects us to heaven. I recommend to ask all the questions then gather your research from all beliefs and find out what has the Most consistencies and the best answers. The Catholic Church encourages this. For 2,000 years the church stands firm on its teachings. Please tell me which of the 40,000 plus churches stands firm. Of which have answered all human questions in depth of degree where the Catholic Church have answered them. If you say you trust experts then you could say the Catholic Church is an expert in this matter. When you hit a roadblock from your trusted experts maybe look into Catholic experts because they might have a better explanation and full understanding of the full truth. Please keep us updated if you’re serious about the truth and living it out. Don’t trust what I say because I’m just a regular Catholic so do your own research.
Having come out of Catholicism at age 17 when I recognized my salvation must come by putting my trust and faith in a Jesus Christ and his death on a cross and resurrection and only by God’s grace- not by any works on my own- I really appreciate someone speaking up about the false yea hinges within Catholicism. (My favorite verse is. Ephesians 2:8-9)
But I have many family members who are still Catholic and I fear they don’t grasp what salvation is by God’s grace ONLY and not by their works. So I really appreciate Mike Winger’s extensive work in teaching us. The amount of spiritual attack he gets is, I’m sure, beyond what we can imagine folks. Mike I will be praying for you and God’s strength and protection upon you. Thank you for being bold and explaining all these very important truths that many nowadays want to avoid.
Jimmy and Trent misrepresent Catholicism. And you got it right? Come on let's be realistic.
Appeal to authority, not scripture. Repent for you have twisted the word of GOD to fit your tradition.
"Let's be realistic" What does that mean? Make an action argument. He has studied this for years in detail, not with the aid of any "watchtower-approved catholic interpretation material" that tells him what the words say when he can read the words himself and see that it actually says something different... Watch the video, you ignoramus. he literally goes in depth on why it's wrong...
53:00 If you think he is uninformed
1:27:25 Justify this
1:29:35 And this.
Direct question to Mike Winger.
Can you please tell us or show us how Trent has been rude to you? His rebuttal to this video demonstrates a strong case that he has never been rude. It amounts to slander to publicly say that he's rude, if he hasn't been.
Please continue to engage Trent. These engagements do prove useful.
However, please don't slander his name. That is profoundly unChristian. I don't believe he's ever done that to you.
Also, please watch his well researched reply to this video. It seems he has your arguments well covered here. It may be possible that the Catholic apologist does in fact know more about Catholicism than the Protestant Pastor. I'd be keen to know what you think of his reply.
God bless, and Merry Christmas to you, your family and your followers.
Many people consider strawmaning rude.
@Jeremy S this is true, but unfortunately that’s a natural consequence of this format of debate. Trent likely did not mean to actually straw man Mike here but didn’t have mike in the room to correct him. Hence why mike really ought to actually debate Trent….
This is a good comment too. I think it’s worth noting that when I watch Trent I’ve noticed that I think just his tone and delivery can sometimes give an impression he doesn’t intend. Trent is an incredibly compassionate apologist, but I have noticed that sometimes when he is speaking it can seem like he’s being patronizing or something because he’s just trying to be charitable
@@GodofDisco I generally don't like pointing it out but I have noticed that any slight criticism or even point in disagreement often leads to anger from a Catholic. Fairly it's usually only one but it's as if they are Catholic first and Christian second. It's like heated political discussion to them. Like I said, it isn't a majority but it is consistent.
What I believe is happening is that Catholicism is HUGE and with so many members there are bound to be that type for which will stand out more. Another theory I have has to do with a subject that I won't mention but I imagine it has made some extremely defensive over their church.
@@DewiiEsq It's actually more likley to unintentionally strawman in live debate. With this type you are able to take as much time as you need to make sure every argument and rebuttal is soundly based. This is my theory as to why Mike believes it was intentional or at the least disrespectful. When you initiate a rebuttal or asks for a debate you show respect by not doing what Trent did. As I said in another reply though, I will give him the benefit of the doubt but that however means that his first rebuttal was sloppy.
Did Mike never make a video for the second half? I really wanted to hear some responses to those.
I am so appreciative and grateful for all of the hard work and investigating and searching for TRUTH you’ve done on this topic. I am also grateful for your genuine, authentic heart in this and other matters on which you teach. I , like you, just want to know the truth. ❤
I'm with you! 👍😉🙏