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WOW! This is why Church History should be taught right after Salvation. The "preterist" (not sure of spelling) interpretation is totally coherent. I feel like i just discovered fire.
Yeah we have think that Revelation a is futuristic when there are contradictions with that view, especially with dispensationalism. Partial preterism is the best explanation for eschatology.
thank you for this, i'm a new christian and don't wanna be indoctrinated with weird theology of the end times so soon in my walk with Christ, so that i end up questioning if he's a false prophet. this is a blessing
What a great comment, thanks for sharing. You're wise! There are Christians that are just as adamant that Revelation is all about the coming days in our lifetime. This can be faith destroying when years go by and nothing happens.
@@mo-215 Not just years but decades, and now a century. Just think of all the Christians that went to their graves hoping the Rapture would come and eliminate that unpleasant ordeal.
I think it would be helpful if Jeff would be willing to debate a reputable Christian who believes in pretribulation rapture and that Revelation is a book refering to events still yet to come
Pre tribulation 🙌🏾 how can we be caught up in the air to meet Him in the clouds only to then be coming down in the second advent. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 rapture. I believe in pretrib
Extremely grateful for this conversation and teaching , I’ve attended church most of my life and have read the Bible for many years and I have never heard this taught about the book of revelation but I can receive it bc of my current studies of early church history . Thsnk you so much I was blessed . God bless aplologia . To God all the Glory 🙏🏼 On the symbol behind you , I was totally attacked by sharing another video and was told that the symbol was satanic , then I sent to research and it was an ancient symbol for the trinity lol Love you guys have been following you for about a year
I just love you guys. Because of you all at Apologia, Kenneth Gentry, Douglas Wilson, Gary Demar, Bruce Gore, and others, I have come into your camp on Eschatology and left the Dispensational Premillennial camp. Scripture and context speak volumes!!! Praise God and thank you for all you do!!!!!!!
Revelation is about the victory of the Lamb, and the Lamb's wife. 'Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world'! Overcoming, by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of our testimony... victory!
Would you be willing to do a chapter by chapter video/videos on the book of revelation? When I watch your videos I get little glimpses of the book and I think many people would benefit from a FULL understanding of what your church believes.
This is very good and helpful. I've really struggled with faith over the years partly due to the extremely confusing teaching about Revelation. Christians just as adamant on both sides "proving " and certain that they are correct. Bible teaching is so confusing when Christian teachers teach such different things about the same verses
I actually heard this broadcast a few years ago. I came to Christ at age 49. Living in the South, premillennialism / pretrib rapture is pervasive. As a new Christian I accepted dispensationalism as being Biblical truth. I did what any good Christian should do and read my Bible daily. After a while I began to notice that I could not find dispensationalism in the Bible. Then I came across Gary Demar's book END TIMES MADNESS. As I began to listen to all the other points of view and studied my scriptures more and more I came to the conclusion that Dispensationalism was not only wrong but it did great harm to the Word of God. The problem in my area is that by denying Dispensationalism you are worse than those that deny the Trinity. I have been asked to leave churches where I engaged in questioning the pretrib rapture. I even repeated the pastors own words, "Iron sharpens iron." Vigorous, polite debate makes a church stronger. I left that church because of its hypocrisy. Finding a Bible believing church that meets all the important Biblical criteria like no women pastors, and accepts debate on critical issues is almost impossible. My wife and I are still looking.
I have been listening to a handful of Jeff’s messages for the first time, Jeff said in one of them, that Messiah was “cut off” 3.5 years into his ministry and the the other 3.5 was completed as the Gentiles where added to the fold (I’m paraphrasing), I have been trying to figure out the timeline from the book of Acts to Cornelius’s conversion (Acts 10) and cant seem to understand how Jeff arrived at that conclusion? I did search out when Herod Agrippa died (44ad) that was 11 years after the resurrection (Acts 12). Any more insight on this would be appreciated. TY
He doesn't understand that in Acts 9 God brought in a a new dispensation called Grace with the apostle Paul. So you see prophecy being postponed from the time of Paul to our day and won't end until the rapture when prophecy will resume with Daniels 70th week. Eph 3.3-6 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me (PAUL) to you-ward (gentiles-not Israel): How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my (Paul's) knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; The information given to Paul was not known before Paul. A new dispensation of the gospel was committed to Paul. Jeff doesn't understand this as most Christians do not.
@@Romans2Philemon sorry you obviously didn’t watch the video Jeff started his Christian life believing exactly what you believe I’d say he understands what you believe he just thinks it new Gnosticism. Please watch his video on Christian Gnostics.
@@joshuahoward7567 I did watch the video and no he did not believe what I believe. I'm a mid acts dispensationalist. He doesn't even know what that is. And I know what Christian Gnostics are.
@@Romans2Philemon May I ask why you would choose a username that would seem to elevate Paul above our Lord Jesus? Thanking you in advance and God bless you 🙏🏽 (PS I think you’ll be waiting for a very long time for a rapture.....and I’m not saying this to be unkind)
@@lavieenrose5954 I chose RomanstoPhilemon because those are the books written specifically for the body of Christ. When you read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John those are book not written to the body of Christ. They are for our learning. (Rom 15.4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.) And yes this is provable in the scriptures and I'll briefly show how. If you have questions, ask. Paul's gospel is separate, different, than the gospel you see Peter preach. Even the Lord himself preached the same gospel as Peter. That gospel is not our gospel! Jesus gave Paul a new gospel specifically for us today. The death, burial, and resurrection. Faith alone, apart from the works of the law. And there are many reasons why, but here is one verse that should at the very least make you think. Gal 2.7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me (PAUL), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) You can clearly see Paul dividing HIS gospel from Peter's gospel. Did you know this??? Just as when you leave Paul's epistles into Hebrews, the audience changes. Hebrews are not Gentiles. Gentiles were never Hebrews. This is even better shown when you go to the next book, James and read the very first verse. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. To the 12 tribes. I am hoping you are aware that the 12 tribes have nothing to do with gentiles, nor body of Christ, which is made of both Jew and Gentile, called a New Creature or New man. Col 3.11 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Understand, someone who is part of the 12 Tribes never ceases to be a Jew, but that verse says the body of Christ is a new man, neither Jew nor Gentile. Gal 3.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. No, I do not elevate Paul but rather magnify his office as Christ commands us to (Rom 11.13). An interesting fact about understanding Paul, is that if you don't acknowledge the truths of these matters, God says let you be ignorant, which I will tell you as Paul warns over and over again that it's to your own destruction. That is to speak to your reward. 1 Cor 3 whole chapter What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I (Paul) write unto you ARE the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1 Cor 14.36-38 Don't be ignorant of these truths. Paul weeps about this in the scriptures several times of people falling to the religious system of the world and forsaking Paul. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I (PAUL) speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I MAGNIFY mine office: So you can see God tells you that the things Paul writes to you ARE the commandments of the Lord Jesus. So when Paul says he magnifies his office you may want to understand why. I can say much more, but I'll stop here and see if you have anything to respond with. And yes, the rapture has been in play for 2k years. We are all waiting a long time, not just me ;0)
It confuses me how Holy Spirit filled men can all have different interpretations or views in eschatology. If eschatology is so vital to the christian walk, then should not Spirit filled men all come to the same conclusion. Why dont they?
because of tradition. Particularly darby, Schofield that era stuff. They made up dispy premil and the first study bibles perpetuated this mess. So then there were several generations of Christians only knowing this view and so that became mainstream. Now that we have internet, we can look at people who actually understand scripture and explain the proper understanding. Amil vs Post is basically a matter of optimism. Besides that they are almost the same
Love pastor Jeff's gospel, deeply grieved on his escatology. If got replaced Israel, that gives me no hope for myself, who is a rebllious sinner at times .. Truth is God's Grace is the only way sinners can be saved. That s for Israel as well. Read Jer31. New cov is addressed to national Israel and Judah. And please answer me this.. if much of Revelation has been fullfiled, what chapter or we in right now???.. Pray God wakes up my post mill brethren.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:17-24
@@lukusmaximus Luke 1 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until, the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.28 As concerning, the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:, but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.,, Romans11 (So why does Paul say, God's going to turn back &save Israel, but my post Mills brethren say he's done with them?... I can't get it. Praying God helps)
@@lorainhealer5501 If you care to read, I wrote an article on this subject that may help you understand where postmillennials and amillennials are coming from. Here's the link. jonahsaller.com/index.php/2020/04/29/why-a-distinction-between-the-church-and-israel-is-impossible/ On top of this, it's also something to consider that a distinction between the church and Israel was found nowhere in the early church. That idea did not start until the 1800's. Blessings!
An undergrad class about the Jerusalem temple completely cemented my understanding of the significance of it's destruction. Ponder this: The temple was the singular location where the God of the universe met with humanity. As such it was a portal between the heavenly world (the unseen) and the material world in which we live. To have this meeting place destroyed was truly a cataclysmic event. So how do we now meet with God? In 1 Corinthians 3:16, Paul asks: "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" Furthermore in Revelation 21:22, John proclaims "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." Something far greater than the temple is here: The Lord Jesus Christ!
I understand completely the connection between the prophesies from the old and from Revelation to the culmination of what happened to Jerusalem . But I've been talking with a pastor friend of mine and he alludes to 1 Thessalonians 4;13-17 . Do you have any videos on the final resurrection and the ultimate end when satan is thrown down etc
Great show and interview! I like Joy's suggestion that we need good storytelling from this perspective. Check out Brian Godawa's "Chronicles of The Apocalypse", it's exactly that!!! He is a Reformed postmillenialist who takes the preterist view of Revelation. I just read the series, it's awesome! It's historical fiction, full of scripture, that takes place during the events leading up to AD 70 and the destruction of the Temple. Great storytelling and characters, and very biblically solid. Its the Reformed, partial preterist answer to Left Behind! Lol
Question about the covenant, it says a everlasting covenant in Ezekiel ? “yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant.” Ezekiel 16:60 ESV
Truly a blessing to hear an eschatological view other than the dispensational one. However, I wonder if Revelation (and Matt. 24 for that matter) might not be better interpreted in light of the ‘already but not yet’ paradigm. It would explain the equivocal language that is used, making what is prophecied applicable to both 70AD and the end of the world. In effect, the judgments etc are ‘beta testing’ for the final judgment when the sun really will go dark and so on. Just my thoughts
THIS is fantastic! The kingdom message (as I have called it) has been such a wild conversational piece. I love how you guys, including Mr. Wilson, speak the truth in love. Keep it up guys!
This is the first time that I've heard an interpretation of revelation that didn't sound a bit wacko. That comment by Doug was gold: "who on earth is Henry Kissinger"? That kinda says it all. Why would John send out letters to recipients who would have no way of interpreting them? The apostles weren't about confusion. I hope we can hear more on this soon. Im certainly hooked now. God bless.
@@icanfartloud as in the days of Noah! In the days of Noah, who was swept away?, the righteous or the wicked? The rapture is a theory based entirely on tradition and popular culture. Bad translation in the KJV bible didn't help, even though it was corrected in the NKJV. Jesus's teaching on the mount of olives follows the exact pattern of Isaiah, mixing literal and metaphorical language, the 'this generation' being literal and the signs being metaphorical. The question is; what age was ending according to Jesus, the end of the all things, or the end of the Jewish age in judgement, which gave rise to the 'times of the gentiles' so often refered to in the OT? This is a serious topic. If Jesus was referring to the end of the world, He was mistaken, and His infatic claims are void and Christianity falls down.
Always looking to reform my eschatology doesn't Isaiah 11 say the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the young goat in the Messiah's kingdom? Am I understanding the post-mil's belief we're in the Millenium now? are these symbolic? if put in a cage a leopard would tear apart the goat today. love you guys
OGmattyICE you might look into a possible Mandela effect. It has always been the lion will lay down with the lamb. Jesus never said that old wine or new wine would be put in bottles. Never said bttles ever. It said wind skins in King James’s Version. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s name has changed as well over night. You might look it up.
Thus says the Lord God: In those days they shall say no more, 'The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge'. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Judgment (pestilence): Plot against an anointed of God. "Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them". Jeremiah 2:22 Jeremiah 33: 3
Can I just ask. Is there a possibility of the prophecies, already fulfilled physically with Nero destroying the temple, also being fulfilled spiritually. For example abomination that is the desolation would be demonic infiltration of the spiritual temple, the church, like in the form of apostasy?
Do y'all have a good argument for using wine instead of juice for communion? Doug Wilson wrote a blog post on it, but it focused primarily on the fact that it was always wine until they changed in the 19th century and he believes their arguments for changing was lame, so their church continue uses wine. But I'd like to know what those temperance arguments were and why y'all believe those arguments are, in short, lame? Thanks!
Just finished watching this and i feel a little naive, a little relieved and almost like i blew my high. Like a ride on a roller coaster that didn't have the thrill i was so sure it would have.
To my understanding, Israel becoming a nation in 1948 would be the the time clock to Christ return....I somewhere (it’s been a while) heard a generation can be anywhere from 40-120years. Janet Markel and Pastor JD Farag have great teaching on end Time prophecy....
Israel becoming a nation again is a countdown to nowhere. Fulfills no prophecy whatsoever. God has dealt with Israel with Christ’s everlasting New Covenant which has no end ❤
I have a question. When Jesus returns and raises the dead in Christ...how are they not already present with Him in heaven when they die? Are we not absent from the body and present with the Lord?
2 Cor 5 is about shedding the old body to get a new one. Read it in context, Paul specifically says that we are currently clothed with an earthly tent(body), and we do NOT want to be naked(without a body). The fact is at the resurrection, we will receive new spiritual bodies that are one with Christ. If "to be absent from the body" automatically means "to be present with the Lord" as many people often misquote that verse, there would be no need for new bodies. Jesus Himself was in the heart of the earth(Sheol/Hades) for 3 days and 3 nights before getting resurrected and ascending into heaven.
It is true that Matthew 24 concerns itself with that coming judgment on the Jews in that generation of Christ, but the state of the church in Revelation 1-3 suggests a later date of composition for the book. The judaizing that Paul had faced is virtually gone, the Ephesians had lost their first love. John had moved from Jerusalem. He would not have moved except for 70ad. He took over Paul’s old circuit, tertulliian called them Johns nurselings. That the church now faced a heathen world power without the old covenant polity requires a revelation to face the new conditions that would continue through centuries to come.
So, how do we determine what’s real and what’s symbolism… it just seems to convenient to say, oh that’s just symbolism… when it comes to some things and not others? This is not meant to be argumentative but I am seriously curious and digging into these different eschatological views
Love your work and devotion. Just wanted to ask you real quick: I've come across some strong research from various individuals that claim that we are actually living in the year 1019. Would love to know your thoughts on that subject. Thank you so much, sending love and prayers from Uruguay.
If: "... the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who remain alive shall meet the Lord in the air" in I Thess. 4:17 ... then, that means the FIRST enemy to be defeated is death. The so-called "rapture" in I Thessalonians must be the same event as I Corinthians 15:49-52
57:45 I have a question... are you essentially saying the book of Revelation (tribulation, harlot, beast, false prophet) is referring to Jesus’ crucifixion? Which would then place the thousand year reign of peace and satan’s bondage afterward? How is it then that we are 2,000 years past that time? I’m just a little lost on how these things are referring to something other than what I had initially read them to mean Are we already in the new heaven and earth?? I thought that would mean we would have a cleansed earth that was filled with heaven’s peace
Hi there. I’m not settled on my own position yet, but I think I can accurately clarify what they believe. They would say the Revelation mainly refers to events between the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, which puts us now in the millennial reign of Christ depicted in Rev 20. Indeed more than a thousand years have passed, but they would point to many passages in the Bible where the number 1000 is used symbolically/poetically to simply convey a large number and sometimes the connotation of greatness/completion. Note the highly symbolic genre of Revelation. The reign of Christ through the Church and the gospel will be increasingly realised on earth as He reigns from the Father’s right hand, although there will still be the final rebellion at the end before Jesus returns for the resurrection of the just and the unjust, the final judgement, and the restoration of all creation as the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. So they’d say we’re in the millennium, but the second coming and new heavens and new earth are still future :) God bless you as you work through these things (I realise your comment was from a year ago, so perhaps you are already way ahead of me in understanding these things!)
@@andrekershaw6244 I’m confused as to who’s the beast, the dragon, and false prophet-the trinity of Satan. How is this portrayed before 70AD, which in their belief is the tribulation? Also what about the release of satan after the millennial for he will be release again and deceive once again? Where and when this will all happen?
@@mikexiong7354 Hi brother. I’m still learning about this perspective and other eschatological views, but I’ll share my best understanding and I welcome correction from anyone who knows more. I’m not sure how they understand the false prophet, so I’d rather not guess. They would tend to say the beast was Nero, or the anti-Christian Roman Empire that Nero represented. They believe that Satan is presently bound (citing Matthew 12, and perhaps Colossians 2:15 and Luke 10:18). However, I believe they would say that after a period of Jesus fully establishing His reign through the gospel and subjecting every enemy (which is in the process of happening now, but still has a long way to go), then Satan will indeed be released briefly to deceive the nations for a final battle, but he will then be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns bodily to raise all the dead, conduct the final judgement and usher in the new heavens and new earth, handing over the Kingdom He has established through the Church to God the Father. Scriptures like Psalm 110 and 1 Corinthians 15 seem to fit very well with this timeline of the last things. I’m still learning, but I hope this helps
There’s a lot more content on the Apologia channel, including their sermons on Matthew 24 and the Great Tribulation, which would help in understanding their view. Also content from Doug Wilson and Gary DeMar. May God bless your studies as we all grow together in understanding His Word :)
I grew up Dispy but I am convinced that is wrong. I am not quite ready to embrace post so I am tending Amil but I wouldn't mind being convinced of post.
I would love it if you guys would be honest about what the early church actually believed. For example, what about Polycarpe (studied under John) or Irenaeus (studied under Polycarpe)? What about the other church leaders in the early 200s? They all taught of a future tribulation, and a pre-trib rapture! You are right in one way, preterism is not a new idea...but it was not the church teaching it...it was the gnostics. In fact, it is a big point of Irenaeus' book "Against Heresy." Please, take a look at history yourself, study scripture and pray for understanding and God will reveal it to you. Don't take the word of a man without testing scripture. Men have a way of twisting scripture to what works for them. Instead, trust what it says...God knew what He was doing when He inspired it. God bless.
You know I've read the Martyrdom of Polycarp and I've read Irenaeus and most of the ECF's. Never read about a pre-trib rapture. Future persecution, sure. The Church was constantly under persecution, especially until Constantine legalized Christianity. But for sure these men were Bishops of the Catholic Church and never taught pre-Trib rapture. The collection of the writings of the ECF's can be found on line here. www.newadvent.org/fathers/
@@Talmai2001 an excerpt from Irenaeus... "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." He was not talking about persecution, but of a great tribulation never seen before. And He believed we would be caught up from it. This is like how the Word says to "keep us from." This is not saying that we will go through it, rather we would be kept from it. Why? Because the great tribulation has to do with the wrath of God and now that we are in Christ we will not come under His wrath. As for wether he was a Catholic, he was recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church...but if that's a problem, we need to throw out the entire new testament. (St. Peter, St. John, St Paul, ect) My point is that it is a problem when we want to believe the people living and breathing today, 2000 years later, rather than believe those who lived in the culture of the time written. God bless
@@js83kaxhf read "Against Heresies" by Irenaeus chapter 5 section 1. The entire section deals with the rapture, I simply pulled the part about pre-trib and tribulation. But he talks about a day that will be in the likeness of Elijah's departure...then he mentions the quote I shared. Listen folks, I'm not asking you to believe me...I'm asking you to do your homework. After all, didn't I say in my original post to study for yourself, study scripture and ask God?
@@nathanaelhoman1808 I disagree. I believe you are misinterpreting what he said. The last sentence says "For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. " It's talking about them undergoing persecution. "contest of the righteous" when they overcome" " crowned" This is the language of suffering and martyrdom. Not getting off without undergoing suffering and being tested. In the passages he used the metaphor of how stubble is used to purify gold. So still no Rapture in the context and understanding of how the early Church understood they they had to suffer and were suffering.
Hmm.. I don’t understand how Nero could’ve been the 6th when he was actually the 5th king to fall. The last of the Dynasty! Augustus (31 BCE-14 CE) Tiberius (14-37 CE) Caligula (37-41 CE) Claudius (41-54 CE) Nero (54-68 CE) The other 3 that followed didn’t last long enough and that was during the time of the civil wars that were going on in Rome at the time. So “the beast that WAS and is NOT and is TO COME..” I think represents the time when Rome fell and was in chaos. But when Vespasian (the 6th) became Emperor, the Roman Empire rose up again and Vespasian sent his son Titus to destroy Jerusalem! It goes perfectly with verse 8, where it says the beast that was and is not, is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction.. And again in verse 11 calling it an 8th but it is apart of the 7. (Rome) And I also think that the king who “has not yet come and when he does he must remain only a little while..” Is referring to Titus, as Titus reigned for a only a short 2 years. That’s the way I see it anyway..
I don't have time to comment or listen much just now, but will comment it is good to study the book of Revelation and to prayerfully try to understand it as well as is possible. I don't expect all sincere Christians can agree on all topics in this, but the important thing is to end up in heaven! That's one thing we all absolutely need to understand and to have made sure will happen in one's life!
Love you guys. Judging by the chats I think you guys knocked over a nest of IFBs. ;) And yes I am not a fan of tats and piercings but my goodness people cat so wound up over incidentals.
I feel like there are elements of truth in both views. I don't think everything is strictly past, but I also don't think it's all future. I feel like a bit of a preterist/idealist interpretation is best.
Wow. This has got me speeding through the book I’m in bow so i can start this book. It would be nice to see Jeff do a series on revelation for his congregation and post it for us. I would love to hear more about it. Cant wait to read the book
Well he has about 6000 sermons on Matthew and the Olivet discourse now, which is very similar to what they address in this convo. So if you haven’t already... go listen to those lol
Lord bless you Emma - He delivered our family of 7 from "Pessimillenialsim" around 20 years ago - now we can more naturally focus on our Duty to Christ our reigning King and those around us, for He aims to save "the whole world". Amen !?
what fear? as a premillennialist, i find the futurist view of revelation very uplifting. it demonstrates the fullness of Gods power and his judgment. It motivates me to reach the lost even more. i serve the Allmighty. He can and will destroy this Earth when it is time.
Just a thought, if most of the book of Revelation has already occurred, i.e the temple being destroyed in 70ad, how could it be new revelation if it was written in 95ad? Anyone??
because majority doesnt determine truth. an earlier date is more consistent with the rest of scripture. There is a sense of imminence in eschatological passages for the original audience. It doesnt make sense to urgently warn someone of something that wont happen for 2000+ years. Jesus pronounced judgement on his own who rejected him within that generation (understood as 40yrs) placing it by 70ad. This is why there is such a mess of failed doomsday prophecies; every new technology is deemed the mark of the beast only to amount to nothing but economic growth; every american president is deemed the new antichrist; etc etc. Its like people waiting on a bus that left a minute before they got to the bus stop saying "any minute now! there it is, nope that a schoolbus...there it is, nope a trash truck..." Theres so much confusion in the premil view because they lack understanding of the symbolism and history
i tried to condense a lot in a small reply. But i would highly recommend you guys a couple resources that blessed me greatly in this subject. One is to go to Ligonier website and find RC Sproul's series called "Crisis in Eschatology ". Its not real user friendly but he does an excellent job presenting the different takes on the passages, the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments, and provides insight on the culture of the roman world at that time. The second one is to find the channel here on youtube by Bruce Gore, he has a series, i think its 10 parts, which is more history focused (whereas Sproul was more theological). After digesting that stuff, id also recommend reading Josephus. I cant even do justice to describe the profound providence in the details he provides. I use this site: sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ go to book V under War of the Jews
I’m not a legalist but we are the Lords temple. I can relate to tattoos when I was in the world , but being a born again Christian and getting tattoos ( don’t think so !!!! ) Irreprensibles in body , soul and. Spirit says the word. God bless
Dating the Revelation. The dating of John’s Apocalypse can make or break one’s method of interpretation. Rather than debate the “what if” of each hypotheses, would it not be better to exclude that which is not true, by that which the evidence does or does not support? There are two classes of evidence to consider upon the determination of this question: The first would be External evidence, which would be outside the text, empirical evidence: data gathered by historical, provable facts that show unquestionable results. This would be historical proof that knowledge was gained by data, rather than hypothesis and conjecture alone. The second would be Internal evidence, that which the Bible text itself reveals to us. With these two available venues for investigation into this question, enough data should be available for an incontrovertible determination: And I believe it is so! As to the first, External Empirical Evidence, I cannot do a greater work than that which has already been done by E. B. Elliot in his Horae Apocalypticae.13 The Horae is the most exhaustive work ever done on the Revelation, completed about 1860, the life work of its author. E. B. Elliot writes: “For the testimony of Irenaeus, - Polycarp’s disciple … who was himself the disciple of the apostle John, is as express to the point in question as it is unexceptional. Speaking of the name and number of the Beast in the Apocalypse, he says, that had this been a matter then to be made known, it would have been disclosed by him who saw the Apocalypse: “for it [the Apocalypse] was seen … towards the end of the reign of Domitian.” This witness absolutely dates the Revelation to about 95 AD, the end of Domitian’s reign. In the negative, there is no evidence that John was exiled during the reign of Nero, or any time before the 70 AD desolation. See the Horae for more external evidence. In my mind the most important evidence is the Internal Evidence. We can all agree that Bible Prophecy is History given in advance. In the Revelation Jesus appears to John and says, “What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;”14 Who are these seven churches in the last decade of the first century? They would be the churches planted by the Hebrew Apostles and Jewish converts, who were told by Jesus himself, to flee Judea before the desolation of the Jewish Temple and Nation; and their disciples, the grafted in Gentiles which lived in the nations where they fled. By this time these two groups would have been well intermarried. They were called Christians. They were God’s Chosen People, the elect. This mixed church of Hebrews and Gentiles in the nations where they fled and took the Gospel, these are the people that made up the 95 AD church that Jesus said that He would build. Jesus specifically addresses the Revelation to these seven prominent churches of Asia, outlining, “the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;”16 The things which are, are the seven churches, to whom Jesus proceeds to dictate seven epistles outlining their present condition, one to each church. Now if the Revelation were written before the destruction of Jerusalem, as the Preterist hypotheses require, and some of the Amillennialists prefer, about 60 AD, then Jesus neglected the most prominent church of that day: where the first several church councils took place and are recorded in the book of Acts, The Church at Jerusalem was the most prominent church of the pre-destruction era and would be one of the churches “which are”. It is however, conspicuously absent from the seven churches named in the Revelation Epistles. That is because it no longer existed in the last decade of the first century, when the Revelation was written. That is why we have no external record of the Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem, or 95 AD. This internal evidence alone precludes the Preterist interpretation of the Revelation (that it is of the destruction of Jerusalem), if pre-desolation as they contend, that it would not be primarily addressed to the Church at Jerusalem is unthinkable. Additionally, with the absence of any empirical evidence in their favor, it completely overthrows the hypothesis and conjecture on which their pre-destruction date solely depends. If this is not enough evidence, there is more evidence outlined in Elliot’s work already referenced.
Another great resource on the book of Revelation with a Postmillennial perspective is HE SHALL OVERCOME: A POSTMILLENNIALESCATOLOGY by Kenneth Gentry Ph. D. … It is a detailed scholarly explanation … He also has some lectures on TH-cam …
Doug Wilson talks about the conflation of the beast and the antichrist. Well, whaddayaknow. Several years ago, when I started questioning all the traditions I had assumed until then, eschathology was the first one. I read Revelation and wondered: gee, the antichrist isn't even mentioned here - why then do people say it is? The answer I got from other christians was basically: "the beast is obviously anti-christian, duh!" I was never satisfied with that. I'm so delighted to hear that there is another great mind, who thinks like me :) I even posted a question about it on Christianity.stackexchange. Look it up; type "Why is the second beast of Revelation called the Antichrist?" in the search bar.
I've heard that interpretation of Matt. 17:20 before about having enough faith to throw this mountain into the sea, and it being symbolic of the fall or judgement of Jerusalem. But I'm not sure that is a plausible interpretation, because the same thing is said about a mulberry tree. Are mulberry trees ever used to symbolize Jerusalem? By the way, I am a partial preterist, postmillennialist. I'm just not sure that's what Matt. 17:20 is saying.
Honest question: Why do you say 1000 years and 144,000 people symbolic but 42 months isn't in Revelation? Everything else makes sense to me. Am I missing something?
Okay….. so Isaiah chapter 65 does really read like a death sentence and execution order for the nation of Israel. But what about Ezekiel chapter 37? The imagery is clearly of a mass grave of the slain, of Israel, dead for a LONG time, and far away, cut off from their land- and the Lord breathes life, brings them from far off, up from their graves, and causes them to settle in the land of Israel again. Right? The significance? I don’t know! God’s amazing power
@@nathaninman3006 if this is true explain how we are progressively sliding into apostasy as a civilization. that is the biggest issue i have with Kingdom now theology. if we are living in his promised kingdom how is it that the world has become progressively worse, not better. He is the perfect King and Lord.
Michael Ransdell my understanding is even post mil says there will be a brief falling away period. It’s also possible we’re just still a long way off. The world is getting better overall by most metrics. Less war. Lower aggregate crime rates. Lowest poverty. Christianity exploding in China, Iran, Africa. It’s possible we already “reached the uttermost parts of the world” and are near the final defeat of death... but it’s also possible is 10,000+ from now. If you had a one way ticket in a time machine to go only backwards and had to pick any even hundred year where would you rather live? I’d stay put. I don’t wanna live in a world without anesthesia, antibiotics, CPAP machines and so many other things that make our lives better. Yes, some of those are material arguments... but many advancements of medicine have come from a Christian worldview or directly from Christians. anesthesia is a prime example, as a Christian man reading Genesis noticed God put Adam asleep for “surgery” to take the rib and form Eve. He said, why are we keeping people awake? And went on a journey to figure it out.
Concerning end time’s prophecy Daniel said, “None of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” Daniel’s prophecy has been sealed up until the TIME OF THE END; not 70 AD. If only the wise understand Daniel’s prophecy then it follows that those who do not understand are foolish and wicked. These Calvinists and their cohorts are therefore foolish and wicked. In Luke 21 Jesus warns the Israelites to flee to the mountains when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Jesus goes on to say there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. While these events unfolded in 70 AD, in the same breath Jesus continued to speak of events which have not yet occurred, or, in some cases, are beginning to occur. He spoke about dismay among nations, men fainting from fear, powers of the heavens will be shaken, it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth, nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, great earthquakes, plagues and famines, terrors and great signs from heaven. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns of the destruction of the temple and then in the same breath provides signs for the end of the age. Jesus did not speak of the church because the church had not been revealed and was a mystery at that time. Many of the signs are repeated in this passage and Jesus gives a warning to flee to the mountains when they see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet. This is a different warning to the one given in Luke where they were told to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. This ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION can only occur when the third temple is built; keep watching Israel as plans for the third temple are now underway. Jesus said, “When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.” We need to be like the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times and knew what to do; we need to believe what the prophets taught and we must be like the Bereans and study to see if these things be so.
If anyone builds a new temple in Israel, look for me to rip it down. It's absurd. WE are the temple. No architectural temple is needed. It would only be a lie and a distraction. Tell me this: If you rebuild the temple, are you going to put the veil back in place - the one that was torn when Jesus was executed? If you do put that back in place, then you are flat-out evil.
@@TheRKae The Church is the ‘mystery’ kingdom. God’s promises, through His prophets, have not changed. A third temple will be built because the Bible says so. This Tribulation temple is not God’s temple but will be built in order to fulfil the prophecy of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet. God’s temple will be built at the start of the millennium as recorded by Ezekiel. I would like to take a selfie of you ripping down the temple but I would have been taken out by then.
@@gregjay9933 It's only an abomination if it's wicked in the sight of God. The only thing that would be an abomination is a rebuilt temple. Read the book of Hebrews.
At 11:32, so, if you are banking on some of the early giants of the faith having a similar understanding as you do as proof of the validity of your position, then what do you do with the Didache which treats Matthew 24 as a yet future event? One is correct, and the other is incorrect, but both are understandings of the early church.
This is basically Replacement Theology. It’s hard to imagine the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel actually did happen already (Ac 1:6-11). Has anyone considered why Jesus didn’t rebuke the disciples for asking Him “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"(v.6) He rebuked Peter for trying to intrude upon God’s plan for Christ’s crucifixion, don’t you think Jesus would’ve done the same with this question? Jesus spent 40days with them after His Resurrection, “speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God”(v.3) and when He’s given a golden opportunity to rebuke the disciples and teach them that He actually taught the A-Millennial view, He did not rebuke them but actually said “ It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority..”(v.7) It seems like most A&Post millennialists hold so much to Augustinian eschatology that they completely change their interpretative method when it comes to Prophetic books. This view would say God doesn’t keep His Covenants which He has made exclusively with Israel; and to blend the Church with Israel is just an inconsistent exegesis that will always corrupt the eschatological position. Get Israel right and you’ll get your eschatology right.
Actually Jesus did correct them, He said my kingdom is not of this world (inhabited earth). In other words, its not a physical kingdom. He said the kingdom was at hand and then the same hour he ascended he said all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Him (compare this to the Lord's Prayer). So Jesus began to reign immediately, not thousands of years in the future. The assertion that he still has a time yet to rule means that he does not have all authority now
This is most assuredly NOT replacement theology. God has always had only one people and we, as Gentiles, are grafted into Israel. It's not that complicated.
Paul, I wrote an article that should clear this up. "Replacement Theology" is a term thrown around by Dispensationals to try and demonize the other positions. As it turns out, NONE of the early church fathers put a distinction between Israel and the Church, and rightly so. Here's the link to my article if you're interested. jonahsaller.com/index.php/2020/04/29/why-a-distinction-between-the-church-and-israel-is-impossible/
I'm only up to 15:17 and I'm glad finally a question of mine was answered! I was hoping they didn't teach Jesus wasn't coming again because... that would be a real bummer. I've kept hearing bits & pieces of the way Apologia teaches this topic, but it was never fully clear to me. Hopefully this interview will continue to clarify it for me.
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Hey yall! Do you have any videos describing the seven seals of revelation??
@apologiastudios
If you care to have an interview with the one the call wicked, let me know. The time is short.
"he must reign until he puts all his enemies beneath his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed is death" should destroy any idea that we're gonna lose!
WOW! This is why Church History should be taught right after Salvation. The "preterist" (not sure of spelling) interpretation is totally coherent. I feel like i just discovered fire.
Right? I went from Dispensational pretrib, to dispensational post trib, to idealist premil to finally partial preterist view.
Yeah we have think that Revelation a is futuristic when there are contradictions with that view, especially with dispensationalism. Partial preterism is the best explanation for eschatology.
thank you for this, i'm a new christian and don't wanna be indoctrinated with weird theology of the end times so soon in my walk with Christ, so that i end up questioning if he's a false prophet. this is a blessing
Me too
I've listened to a lot of pastors online and Pastor Durbin is always on point.
What a great comment, thanks for sharing. You're wise! There are Christians that are just as adamant that Revelation is all about the coming days in our lifetime. This can be faith destroying when years go by and nothing happens.
@@mo-215 Not just years but decades, and now a century. Just think of all the Christians that went to their graves hoping the Rapture would come and eliminate that unpleasant ordeal.
Thanks Apologia for having pastor Wilson on!
Thanks Canon press for sending me his book with free shipping in July :)
@@britterz483 of course!
I think it would be helpful if Jeff would be willing to debate a reputable Christian who believes in pretribulation rapture and that Revelation is a book refering to events still yet to come
Ken Gentry and Gary DeMar have done this ad nasuem with Tommy Ice.
there was a debate trying to be arranged and jeff had to back out for health reasons
Absolutely!
And u sound like a moron who believes in the rapture
Pre tribulation 🙌🏾 how can we be caught up in the air to meet Him in the clouds only to then be coming down in the second advent. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 rapture. I believe in pretrib
Extremely grateful for this conversation and teaching , I’ve attended church most of my life and have read the Bible for many years and I have never heard this taught about the book of revelation but I can receive it bc of my current studies of early church history . Thsnk you so much I was blessed . God bless aplologia . To God all the Glory 🙏🏼
On the symbol behind you , I was totally attacked by sharing another video and was told that the symbol was satanic , then I sent to research and it was an ancient symbol for the trinity lol
Love you guys have been following you for about a year
I just love you guys. Because of you all at Apologia, Kenneth Gentry, Douglas Wilson, Gary Demar, Bruce Gore, and others, I have come into your camp on Eschatology and left the Dispensational Premillennial camp. Scripture and context speak volumes!!! Praise God and thank you for all you do!!!!!!!
Starts at 2:15
Love the ignorance call-out at the end!! God bless you, thanks for another biblical draw for understanding Revelation 👍
Revelation is about the victory of the Lamb, and the Lamb's wife. 'Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world'! Overcoming, by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of our testimony... victory!
Would you be willing to do a chapter by chapter video/videos on the book of revelation? When I watch your videos I get little glimpses of the book and I think many people would benefit from a FULL understanding of what your church believes.
This is very good and helpful. I've really struggled with faith over the years partly due to the extremely confusing teaching about Revelation. Christians just as adamant on both sides "proving " and certain that they are correct.
Bible teaching is so confusing when Christian teachers teach such different things about the same verses
I actually heard this broadcast a few years ago. I came to Christ at age 49. Living in the South, premillennialism / pretrib rapture is pervasive. As a new Christian I accepted dispensationalism as being Biblical truth. I did what any good Christian should do and read my Bible daily. After a while I began to notice that I could not find dispensationalism in the Bible. Then I came across Gary Demar's book END TIMES MADNESS. As I began to listen to all the other points of view and studied my scriptures more and more I came to the conclusion that Dispensationalism was not only wrong but it did great harm to the Word of God. The problem in my area is that by denying Dispensationalism you are worse than those that deny the Trinity. I have been asked to leave churches where I engaged in questioning the pretrib rapture. I even repeated the pastors own words, "Iron sharpens iron." Vigorous, polite debate makes a church stronger. I left that church because of its hypocrisy. Finding a Bible believing church that meets all the important Biblical criteria like no women pastors, and accepts debate on critical issues is almost impossible. My wife and I are still looking.
I have been listening to a handful of Jeff’s messages for the first time, Jeff said in one of them, that Messiah was “cut off” 3.5 years into his ministry and the the other 3.5 was completed as the Gentiles where added to the fold (I’m paraphrasing), I have been trying to figure out the timeline from the book of Acts to Cornelius’s conversion (Acts 10) and cant seem to understand how Jeff arrived at that conclusion? I did search out when Herod Agrippa died (44ad) that was 11 years after the resurrection (Acts 12). Any more insight on this would be appreciated. TY
He doesn't understand that in Acts 9 God brought in a a new dispensation called Grace with the apostle Paul. So you see prophecy being postponed from the time of Paul to our day and won't end until the rapture when prophecy will resume with Daniels 70th week. Eph 3.3-6
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me (PAUL) to you-ward (gentiles-not Israel): How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my (Paul's) knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
The information given to Paul was not known before Paul. A new dispensation of the gospel was committed to Paul. Jeff doesn't understand this as most Christians do not.
@@Romans2Philemon sorry you obviously didn’t watch the video Jeff started his Christian life believing exactly what you believe I’d say he understands what you believe he just thinks it new Gnosticism. Please watch his video on Christian Gnostics.
@@joshuahoward7567 I did watch the video and no he did not believe what I believe. I'm a mid acts dispensationalist. He doesn't even know what that is. And I know what Christian Gnostics are.
@@Romans2Philemon
May I ask why you would choose a username that would seem to elevate Paul above our Lord Jesus?
Thanking you in advance and God bless you 🙏🏽
(PS I think you’ll be waiting for a very long time for a rapture.....and I’m not saying this to be unkind)
@@lavieenrose5954 I chose RomanstoPhilemon because those are the books written specifically for the body of Christ. When you read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John those are book not written to the body of Christ. They are for our learning. (Rom 15.4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.) And yes this is provable in the scriptures and I'll briefly show how. If you have questions, ask.
Paul's gospel is separate, different, than the gospel you see Peter preach. Even the Lord himself preached the same gospel as Peter. That gospel is not our gospel! Jesus gave Paul a new gospel specifically for us today. The death, burial, and resurrection. Faith alone, apart from the works of the law. And there are many reasons why, but here is one verse that should at the very least make you think.
Gal 2.7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me (PAUL), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
You can clearly see Paul dividing HIS gospel from Peter's gospel. Did you know this???
Just as when you leave Paul's epistles into Hebrews, the audience changes. Hebrews are not Gentiles. Gentiles were never Hebrews. This is even better shown when you go to the next book, James and read the very first verse.
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
To the 12 tribes. I am hoping you are aware that the 12 tribes have nothing to do with gentiles, nor body of Christ, which is made of both Jew and Gentile, called a New Creature or New man.
Col 3.11
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Understand, someone who is part of the 12 Tribes never ceases to be a Jew, but that verse says the body of Christ is a new man, neither Jew nor Gentile.
Gal 3.28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
No, I do not elevate Paul but rather magnify his office as Christ commands us to (Rom 11.13). An interesting fact about understanding Paul, is that if you don't acknowledge the truths of these matters, God says let you be ignorant, which I will tell you as Paul warns over and over again that it's to your own destruction. That is to speak to your reward. 1 Cor 3 whole chapter
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I (Paul) write unto you ARE the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1 Cor 14.36-38
Don't be ignorant of these truths. Paul weeps about this in the scriptures several times of people falling to the religious system of the world and forsaking Paul.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I (PAUL) speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I MAGNIFY mine office:
So you can see God tells you that the things Paul writes to you ARE the commandments of the Lord Jesus. So when Paul says he magnifies his office you may want to understand why. I can say much more, but I'll stop here and see if you have anything to respond with.
And yes, the rapture has been in play for 2k years. We are all waiting a long time, not just me ;0)
I've been binging Johnny Cash for the past 2 days...then I saw Doug's book. lol!
It confuses me how Holy Spirit filled men can all have different interpretations or views in eschatology. If eschatology is so vital to the christian walk, then should not Spirit filled men all come to the same conclusion. Why dont they?
because of tradition. Particularly darby, Schofield that era stuff. They made up dispy premil and the first study bibles perpetuated this mess. So then there were several generations of Christians only knowing this view and so that became mainstream. Now that we have internet, we can look at people who actually understand scripture and explain the proper understanding. Amil vs Post is basically a matter of optimism. Besides that they are almost the same
Because we are all sinners. It’s that body of flesh thing we have to deal with
Why do some people think "tongues" means "babbling in a secret prayer language"? Because nothing stops people from being misled.
Because all human interpreters deal with the following things:
1) Sin
2) Error
3) Tradition
These sometimes keep them from seeing the truth.
We see through a glass dimly
Love pastor Jeff's gospel, deeply grieved on his escatology. If got replaced Israel, that gives me no hope for myself, who is a rebllious sinner at times .. Truth is God's Grace is the only way sinners can be saved. That s for Israel as well. Read Jer31. New cov is addressed to national Israel and Judah. And please answer me this.. if much of Revelation has been fullfiled, what chapter or we in right now???..
Pray God wakes up my post mill brethren.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Romans 11:17-24
@@lukusmaximus
Luke 1
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until, the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.28 As concerning, the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:, but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.,,
Romans11
(So why does Paul say, God's going to turn back &save Israel, but my post Mills brethren say he's done with them?... I can't get it. Praying God helps)
@@lorainhealer5501 If you care to read, I wrote an article on this subject that may help you understand where postmillennials and amillennials are coming from. Here's the link.
jonahsaller.com/index.php/2020/04/29/why-a-distinction-between-the-church-and-israel-is-impossible/
On top of this, it's also something to consider that a distinction between the church and Israel was found nowhere in the early church. That idea did not start until the 1800's. Blessings!
@@merecatholicity
Blessings to you Jonah Saller, will check it out👍 thank you
An undergrad class about the Jerusalem temple completely cemented my understanding of the significance of it's destruction. Ponder this: The temple was the singular location where the God of the universe met with humanity. As such it was a portal between the heavenly world (the unseen) and the material world in which we live. To have this meeting place destroyed was truly a cataclysmic event. So how do we now meet with God? In 1 Corinthians 3:16, Paul asks: "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" Furthermore in Revelation 21:22, John proclaims "And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." Something far greater than the temple is here: The Lord Jesus Christ!
The Shelogians commercial had me laughing. I want to go hang out with them.
I can’t wait to get back into the word and hash this out. Question: why is Jesus not currently reigning with a rod of iron over the nations?
Mike Andreano answer: he is at the right hand of the father
@@nathaninman3006 which leaves a big chunk of the post millennial ideal in limbo
I understand completely the connection between the prophesies from the old and from Revelation to the culmination of what happened to Jerusalem . But I've been talking with a pastor friend of mine and he alludes to 1 Thessalonians 4;13-17 . Do you have any videos on the final resurrection and the ultimate end when satan is thrown down etc
Loved this show. Thanks so much guys at Apoligia Radio for this new insight on the book of revelation, it makes complete sense. Luv u guys.
They're wrong
Bro Dauglas Wilson is one of my fav Bible Teacher..
Where can I read the chronicle of what happened at that time?
Great show and interview! I like Joy's suggestion that we need good storytelling from this perspective. Check out Brian Godawa's "Chronicles of The Apocalypse", it's exactly that!!! He is a Reformed postmillenialist who takes the preterist view of Revelation. I just read the series, it's awesome! It's historical fiction, full of scripture, that takes place during the events leading up to AD 70 and the destruction of the Temple. Great storytelling and characters, and very biblically solid. Its the Reformed, partial preterist answer to Left Behind! Lol
Which all still relies on a strict early dating of Revelation which doesn't seem very likely at all.
@@universalis8208 Well then you're just not looking hard enough. Its very evident Revelation is of a pre-70 composition.
Question about the covenant, it says a everlasting covenant in Ezekiel ? “yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant.”
Ezekiel 16:60 ESV
There is a series called “The last Disciple “ that is based on a preterist view. It is fictional, but a great counter piece to “The Left Behind.”
Truly a blessing to hear an eschatological view other than the dispensational one. However, I wonder if Revelation (and Matt. 24 for that matter) might not be better interpreted in light of the ‘already but not yet’ paradigm. It would explain the equivocal language that is used, making what is prophecied applicable to both 70AD and the end of the world. In effect, the judgments etc are ‘beta testing’ for the final judgment when the sun really will go dark and so on. Just my thoughts
Great episode! I bought his book yesterday.
Although I disagree, am I looking forward to reading this partial preterist view until Gentry's magnum opus will be released.
THIS is fantastic! The kingdom message (as I have called it) has been such a wild conversational piece. I love how you guys, including Mr. Wilson, speak the truth in love. Keep it up guys!
Pastor Jeff, is that a Schuyler bible you’re reading out of in the beginning of the show?
This is the first time that I've heard an interpretation of revelation that didn't sound a bit wacko. That comment by Doug was gold: "who on earth is Henry Kissinger"?
That kinda says it all. Why would John send out letters to recipients who would have no way of interpreting them? The apostles weren't about confusion.
I hope we can hear more on this soon. Im certainly hooked now. God bless.
They are wrong
@@icanfartloud please explain
@@icanfartloud as in the days of Noah!
In the days of Noah, who was swept away?, the righteous or the wicked?
The rapture is a theory based entirely on tradition and popular culture. Bad translation in the KJV bible didn't help, even though it was corrected in the NKJV.
Jesus's teaching on the mount of olives follows the exact pattern of Isaiah, mixing literal and metaphorical language, the 'this generation' being literal and the signs being metaphorical.
The question is; what age was ending according to Jesus, the end of the all things, or the end of the Jewish age in judgement, which gave rise to the 'times of the gentiles' so often refered to in the OT?
This is a serious topic. If Jesus was referring to the end of the world, He was mistaken, and His infatic claims are void and Christianity falls down.
@@theologian1456 Never believe a user whose names "I can fart loud"
Just read When a Man Comes Around. I need directions on what scripturw speak on second coming in the bible.
Always looking to reform my eschatology doesn't Isaiah 11 say the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie down with the young goat in the Messiah's kingdom? Am I understanding the post-mil's belief we're in the Millenium now? are these symbolic? if put in a cage a leopard would tear apart the goat today. love you guys
OGmattyICE you might look into a possible Mandela effect. It has always been the lion will lay down with the lamb. Jesus never said that old wine or new wine would be put in bottles. Never said bttles ever. It said wind skins in King James’s Version. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s name has changed as well over night. You might look it up.
Thus says the Lord God:
In those days they shall say no more, 'The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge'.
But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Judgment (pestilence): Plot against an anointed of God.
"Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them".
Jeremiah 2:22
Jeremiah 33: 3
Bring forth the royal diadem and crown Him LORD of all
Can I just ask. Is there a possibility of the prophecies, already fulfilled physically with Nero destroying the temple, also being fulfilled spiritually. For example abomination that is the desolation would be demonic infiltration of the spiritual temple, the church, like in the form of apostasy?
Do y'all have a good argument for using wine instead of juice for communion? Doug Wilson wrote a blog post on it, but it focused primarily on the fact that it was always wine until they changed in the 19th century and he believes their arguments for changing was lame, so their church continue uses wine. But I'd like to know what those temperance arguments were and why y'all believe those arguments are, in short, lame? Thanks!
What's the name of the song played during the Sheologians commercial? It's awesome.
yeah I was wondering too. Any links besides iTunes (Android not Apple used here...)
Thx
Thank you for undoing the TBN lies in me.
Just finished watching this and i feel a little naive, a little relieved and almost like i blew my high. Like a ride on a roller coaster that didn't have the thrill i was so sure it would have.
To my understanding, Israel becoming a nation in 1948 would be the the time clock to Christ return....I somewhere (it’s been a while) heard a generation can be anywhere from 40-120years. Janet Markel and Pastor JD Farag have great teaching on end Time prophecy....
MaryAnn Sharp the nation of Israel today is a nation of covenant breakers. The true Israel is the church
No it started over 2590 years ago in Daniels Day.
Israel becoming a nation again is a countdown to nowhere. Fulfills no prophecy whatsoever. God has dealt with Israel with Christ’s everlasting New Covenant which has no end ❤
I have a question. When Jesus returns and raises the dead in Christ...how are they not already present with Him in heaven when they die? Are we not absent from the body and present with the Lord?
2 Cor 5 is about shedding the old body to get a new one. Read it in context, Paul specifically says that we are currently clothed with an earthly tent(body), and we do NOT want to be naked(without a body). The fact is at the resurrection, we will receive new spiritual bodies that are one with Christ.
If "to be absent from the body" automatically means "to be present with the Lord" as many people often misquote that verse, there would be no need for new bodies. Jesus Himself was in the heart of the earth(Sheol/Hades) for 3 days and 3 nights before getting resurrected and ascending into heaven.
I’ll order it tonight.
@apologiastudios
If you care to have an interview with the one the call wicked, let me know. The time is short.
It is true that Matthew 24 concerns itself with that coming judgment on the Jews in that generation of Christ, but the state of the church in Revelation 1-3 suggests a later date of composition for the book. The judaizing that Paul had faced is virtually gone, the Ephesians had lost their first love. John had moved from Jerusalem. He would not have moved except for 70ad. He took over Paul’s old circuit, tertulliian called them Johns nurselings. That the church now faced a heathen world power without the old covenant polity requires a revelation to face the new conditions that would continue through centuries to come.
Boom
Very interesting
So, how do we determine what’s real and what’s symbolism… it just seems to convenient to say, oh that’s just symbolism… when it comes to some things and not others?
This is not meant to be argumentative but I am seriously curious and digging into these different eschatological views
Love your work and devotion. Just wanted to ask you real quick: I've come across some strong research from various individuals that claim that we are actually living in the year 1019. Would love to know your thoughts on that subject. Thank you so much, sending love and prayers from Uruguay.
At least they're off by a full Thousand so recalculating is simple, right ?
This is interesting..Will look into it again and again
They almost convinced me in being post mil 😂😂
Only almost?
Well....I hope your post mil by now 😂 be blessed
That Post Mil, though. Thank you for your teachings.
31:47 Oh, wow, the explanation of the mustard seed faith thing finally makes it make sense to me!
This was an awesome episode guys! Love y’all 👏🏽
If: "... the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who remain alive shall meet the Lord in the air" in I Thess. 4:17
... then, that means the FIRST enemy to be defeated is death.
The so-called "rapture" in
I Thessalonians must be the same event as
I Corinthians 15:49-52
57:45 I have a question... are you essentially saying the book of Revelation (tribulation, harlot, beast, false prophet) is referring to Jesus’ crucifixion? Which would then place the thousand year reign of peace and satan’s bondage afterward? How is it then that we are 2,000 years past that time? I’m just a little lost on how these things are referring to something other than what I had initially read them to mean
Are we already in the new heaven and earth?? I thought that would mean we would have a cleansed earth that was filled with heaven’s peace
Hi there. I’m not settled on my own position yet, but I think I can accurately clarify what they believe. They would say the Revelation mainly refers to events between the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, which puts us now in the millennial reign of Christ depicted in Rev 20. Indeed more than a thousand years have passed, but they would point to many passages in the Bible where the number 1000 is used symbolically/poetically to simply convey a large number and sometimes the connotation of greatness/completion. Note the highly symbolic genre of Revelation. The reign of Christ through the Church and the gospel will be increasingly realised on earth as He reigns from the Father’s right hand, although there will still be the final rebellion at the end before Jesus returns for the resurrection of the just and the unjust, the final judgement, and the restoration of all creation as the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. So they’d say we’re in the millennium, but the second coming and new heavens and new earth are still future :) God bless you as you work through these things (I realise your comment was from a year ago, so perhaps you are already way ahead of me in understanding these things!)
@@andrekershaw6244 I’m confused as to who’s the beast, the dragon, and false prophet-the trinity of Satan. How is this portrayed before 70AD, which in their belief is the tribulation? Also what about the release of satan after the millennial for he will be release again and deceive once again? Where and when this will all happen?
@@mikexiong7354 Hi brother. I’m still learning about this perspective and other eschatological views, but I’ll share my best understanding and I welcome correction from anyone who knows more. I’m not sure how they understand the false prophet, so I’d rather not guess. They would tend to say the beast was Nero, or the anti-Christian Roman Empire that Nero represented. They believe that Satan is presently bound (citing Matthew 12, and perhaps Colossians 2:15 and Luke 10:18). However, I believe they would say that after a period of Jesus fully establishing His reign through the gospel and subjecting every enemy (which is in the process of happening now, but still has a long way to go), then Satan will indeed be released briefly to deceive the nations for a final battle, but he will then be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns bodily to raise all the dead, conduct the final judgement and usher in the new heavens and new earth, handing over the Kingdom He has established through the Church to God the Father. Scriptures like Psalm 110 and 1 Corinthians 15 seem to fit very well with this timeline of the last things. I’m still learning, but I hope this helps
There’s a lot more content on the Apologia channel, including their sermons on Matthew 24 and the Great Tribulation, which would help in understanding their view. Also content from Doug Wilson and Gary DeMar. May God bless your studies as we all grow together in understanding His Word :)
New heaven and new earth = new covenant which is everlasting ❤
I grew up Dispy but I am convinced that is wrong. I am not quite ready to embrace post so I am tending Amil but I wouldn't mind being convinced of post.
What is that Tiquetra symbol doing in the picture??
The Trinity knot represents the triune God
I would love it if you guys would be honest about what the early church actually believed. For example, what about Polycarpe (studied under John) or Irenaeus (studied under Polycarpe)? What about the other church leaders in the early 200s?
They all taught of a future tribulation, and a pre-trib rapture! You are right in one way, preterism is not a new idea...but it was not the church teaching it...it was the gnostics. In fact, it is a big point of Irenaeus' book "Against Heresy."
Please, take a look at history yourself, study scripture and pray for understanding and God will reveal it to you. Don't take the word of a man without testing scripture. Men have a way of twisting scripture to what works for them. Instead, trust what it says...God knew what He was doing when He inspired it.
God bless.
You know I've read the Martyrdom of Polycarp and I've read Irenaeus and most of the ECF's. Never read about a pre-trib rapture. Future persecution, sure. The Church was constantly under persecution, especially until Constantine legalized Christianity. But for sure these men were Bishops of the Catholic Church and never taught pre-Trib rapture. The collection of the writings of the ECF's can be found on line here. www.newadvent.org/fathers/
@@Talmai2001 an excerpt from Irenaeus...
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."
He was not talking about persecution, but of a great tribulation never seen before. And He believed we would be caught up from it. This is like how the Word says to "keep us from." This is not saying that we will go through it, rather we would be kept from it. Why? Because the great tribulation has to do with the wrath of God and now that we are in Christ we will not come under His wrath.
As for wether he was a Catholic, he was recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church...but if that's a problem, we need to throw out the entire new testament. (St. Peter, St. John, St Paul, ect)
My point is that it is a problem when we want to believe the people living and breathing today, 2000 years later, rather than believe those who lived in the culture of the time written.
God bless
nathanael homan - with all due respect, your quote doesn’t mention rapture but rather proves Mr Beatties point completely
@@js83kaxhf read "Against Heresies" by Irenaeus chapter 5 section 1. The entire section deals with the rapture, I simply pulled the part about pre-trib and tribulation. But he talks about a day that will be in the likeness of Elijah's departure...then he mentions the quote I shared.
Listen folks, I'm not asking you to believe me...I'm asking you to do your homework. After all, didn't I say in my original post to study for yourself, study scripture and ask God?
@@nathanaelhoman1808 I disagree. I believe you are misinterpreting what he said. The last sentence says "For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. " It's talking about them undergoing persecution. "contest of the righteous" when they overcome" " crowned" This is the language of suffering and martyrdom. Not getting off without undergoing suffering and being tested. In the passages he used the metaphor of how stubble is used to purify gold. So still no Rapture in the context and understanding of how the early Church understood they they had to suffer and were suffering.
Hmm.. I don’t understand how Nero could’ve been the 6th when he was actually the 5th king to fall. The last of the Dynasty!
Augustus (31 BCE-14 CE)
Tiberius (14-37 CE)
Caligula (37-41 CE)
Claudius (41-54 CE)
Nero (54-68 CE)
The other 3 that followed didn’t last long enough and that was during the time of the civil wars that were going on in Rome at the time.
So “the beast that WAS and is NOT and is TO COME..”
I think represents the time when Rome fell and was in chaos. But when Vespasian (the 6th) became Emperor, the Roman Empire rose up again and Vespasian sent his son Titus to destroy Jerusalem!
It goes perfectly with verse 8, where it says the beast that was and is not, is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction.. And again in verse 11 calling it an 8th but it is apart of the 7. (Rome)
And I also think that the king who “has not yet come and when he does he must remain only a little while..” Is referring to Titus, as Titus reigned for a only a short 2 years.
That’s the way I see it anyway..
You forgot Julius Caesar.
I don't have time to comment or listen much just now, but will comment it is good to study the book of Revelation and to prayerfully try to understand it as well as is possible. I don't expect all sincere Christians can agree on all topics in this, but the important thing is to end up in heaven! That's one thing we all absolutely need to understand and to have made sure will happen in one's life!
1:05:00 marks on the hand or forehead, Dr. Gary DeMar, I think it was Revelation 14, that even the believers had a mark.
Great discussion...... Thankyou!
Love you guys. Judging by the chats I think you guys knocked over a nest of IFBs. ;) And yes I am not a fan of tats and piercings but my goodness people cat so wound up over incidentals.
There are both pre and post views that have strong arguments on both sides. There is an end to all this chaos.
I feel like there are elements of truth in both views. I don't think everything is strictly past, but I also don't think it's all future. I feel like a bit of a preterist/idealist interpretation is best.
Wow. This has got me speeding through the book I’m in bow so i can start this book. It would be nice to see Jeff do a series on revelation for his congregation and post it for us. I would love to hear more about it. Cant wait to read the book
Well he has about 6000 sermons on Matthew and the Olivet discourse now, which is very similar to what they address in this convo. So if you haven’t already... go listen to those lol
Fascinating.
Such a blessing!
Why is it so dark in the studio?
Saves on electricity bills doesn't it.
Man you guys have shed so much light on this subject!! I have struggled with this for a long time! Eye opening!!!! Thank you!
Thank you, I needed this, I’m finally free of that depressing fear of impending fake biblical apocalyptic doom, thank you so much!!!
Lord bless you Emma - He delivered our family of 7 from "Pessimillenialsim" around 20 years ago - now we can more naturally focus on our Duty to Christ our reigning King and those around us, for He aims to save "the whole world".
Amen !?
what fear? as a premillennialist, i find the futurist view of revelation very uplifting. it demonstrates the fullness of Gods power and his judgment. It motivates me to reach the lost even more. i serve the Allmighty. He can and will destroy this Earth when it is time.
All who die whithout Christ were sealed by the beast...
Always great stuff from them! Question: What is Rev. 17:11 referring to?
I'm pretty sure it's referring to this
Daniel 7:7-8
Just a thought, if most of the book of Revelation has already occurred, i.e the temple being destroyed in 70ad, how could it be new revelation if it was written in 95ad? Anyone??
because it was written earlier
How do you say we can prove that it was written earlier when the general consensus among scholars is it was written later? Sincerely asking?
because majority doesnt determine truth. an earlier date is more consistent with the rest of scripture. There is a sense of imminence in eschatological passages for the original audience. It doesnt make sense to urgently warn someone of something that wont happen for 2000+ years. Jesus pronounced judgement on his own who rejected him within that generation (understood as 40yrs) placing it by 70ad. This is why there is such a mess of failed doomsday prophecies; every new technology is deemed the mark of the beast only to amount to nothing but economic growth; every american president is deemed the new antichrist; etc etc. Its like people waiting on a bus that left a minute before they got to the bus stop saying "any minute now! there it is, nope that a schoolbus...there it is, nope a trash truck..." Theres so much confusion in the premil view because they lack understanding of the symbolism and history
Thank you for your replys. Definitely got me thinking
i tried to condense a lot in a small reply. But i would highly recommend you guys a couple resources that blessed me greatly in this subject. One is to go to Ligonier website and find RC Sproul's series called "Crisis in Eschatology ". Its not real user friendly but he does an excellent job presenting the different takes on the passages, the strengths and weaknesses of the arguments, and provides insight on the culture of the roman world at that time.
The second one is to find the channel here on youtube by Bruce Gore, he has a series, i think its 10 parts, which is more history focused (whereas Sproul was more theological).
After digesting that stuff, id also recommend reading Josephus. I cant even do justice to describe the profound providence in the details he provides. I use this site: sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/
go to book V under War of the Jews
I’m not a legalist but we are the Lords temple.
I can relate to tattoos when I was in the world , but being a born again Christian and getting tattoos ( don’t think so !!!! )
Irreprensibles in body , soul and. Spirit says the word.
God bless
Right but what do you want us to do? Get them removed? That’s expensive.
@@elliesilva1907
Exactly ❤
anyone know the song that plays during the "Sheologians" ad? i dig it but i cant find it
I think they said it's just some copyright free song
Dating the Revelation.
The dating of John’s Apocalypse can make or break one’s method of interpretation. Rather than debate the “what if” of each hypotheses, would it not be better to exclude that which is not true, by that which the evidence does or does not support? There are two classes of evidence to consider upon the determination of this question:
The first would be External evidence, which would be outside the text, empirical evidence: data gathered by historical, provable facts that show unquestionable results. This would be historical proof that knowledge was gained by data, rather than hypothesis and conjecture alone.
The second would be Internal evidence, that which the Bible text itself reveals to us.
With these two available venues for investigation into this question, enough data should be available for an incontrovertible determination: And I believe it is so!
As to the first, External Empirical Evidence, I cannot do a greater work than that which has already been done by E. B. Elliot in his Horae Apocalypticae.13
The Horae is the most exhaustive work ever done on the Revelation, completed about 1860, the life work of its author. E. B. Elliot writes:
“For the testimony of Irenaeus, - Polycarp’s disciple … who was himself the disciple of the apostle John, is as express to the point in question as it is unexceptional. Speaking of the name and number of the Beast in the Apocalypse, he says, that had this been a matter then to be made known, it would have been disclosed by him who saw the Apocalypse: “for it [the Apocalypse] was seen … towards the end of the reign of Domitian.”
This witness absolutely dates the Revelation to about 95 AD, the end of Domitian’s reign. In the negative, there is no evidence that John was exiled during the reign of Nero, or any time before the 70 AD desolation. See the Horae for more external evidence.
In my mind the most important evidence is the Internal Evidence. We can all agree that Bible Prophecy is History given in advance. In the Revelation Jesus appears to John and says, “What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;”14
Who are these seven churches in the last decade of the first century? They would be the churches planted by the Hebrew Apostles and Jewish converts, who were told by Jesus himself, to flee Judea before the desolation of the Jewish Temple and Nation; and their disciples, the grafted in Gentiles which lived in the nations where they fled. By this time these two groups would have been well intermarried. They were called Christians. They were God’s Chosen People, the elect.
This mixed church of Hebrews and Gentiles in the nations where they fled and took the Gospel, these are the people that made up the 95 AD church that Jesus said that He would build. Jesus specifically addresses the Revelation to these seven prominent churches of Asia, outlining, “the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;”16
The things which are, are the seven churches, to whom Jesus proceeds to dictate seven epistles outlining their present condition, one to each church.
Now if the Revelation were written before the destruction of Jerusalem, as the Preterist hypotheses require, and some of the Amillennialists prefer, about 60 AD, then Jesus neglected the most prominent church of that day: where the first several church councils took place and are recorded in the book of Acts, The Church at Jerusalem was the most prominent church of the pre-destruction era and would be one of the churches “which are”. It is however, conspicuously absent from the seven churches named in the Revelation Epistles. That is because it no longer existed in the last decade of the first century, when the Revelation was written. That is why we have no external record of the Revelation before the destruction of Jerusalem, or 95 AD.
This internal evidence alone precludes the Preterist interpretation of the Revelation (that it is of the destruction of Jerusalem), if pre-desolation as they contend, that it would not be primarily addressed to the Church at Jerusalem is unthinkable. Additionally, with the absence of any empirical evidence in their favor, it completely overthrows the hypothesis and conjecture on which their pre-destruction date solely depends. If this is not enough evidence, there is more evidence outlined in Elliot’s work already referenced.
Another great resource on the book of Revelation with a Postmillennial perspective is HE SHALL OVERCOME: A POSTMILLENNIALESCATOLOGY by Kenneth Gentry Ph. D. … It is a detailed scholarly explanation … He also has some lectures on TH-cam …
Thanks Apologia!
Comment for algorithm.
I don't think anyone has Revelation figured out completely. anyone who thinks they do probably just not being honest with themselves
While I'm not amillennialist as Jeff seems to be, but Christ comes at the seventh trumpet, hence would hold to a post-trib pre-millennial perspective.
Jesus' Word he’s the biblical postmillennial view
@@nathaninman3006 Thanks for the correction. God bless!
At the end, I was just seeing that clip from vice of Jeff waiting he has to go to the bathroom. Sorry, Buddy, it's going to be a meme. :-)
Doug Wilson talks about the conflation of the beast and the antichrist. Well, whaddayaknow. Several years ago, when I started questioning all the traditions I had assumed until then, eschathology was the first one. I read Revelation and wondered: gee, the antichrist isn't even mentioned here - why then do people say it is? The answer I got from other christians was basically: "the beast is obviously anti-christian, duh!" I was never satisfied with that. I'm so delighted to hear that there is another great mind, who thinks like me :) I even posted a question about it on Christianity.stackexchange. Look it up; type "Why is the second beast of Revelation called the Antichrist?" in the search bar.
Portugal is here to congratulações for the programa
I've heard that interpretation of Matt. 17:20 before about having enough faith to throw this mountain into the sea, and it being symbolic of the fall or judgement of Jerusalem. But I'm not sure that is a plausible interpretation, because the same thing is said about a mulberry tree. Are mulberry trees ever used to symbolize Jerusalem? By the way, I am a partial preterist, postmillennialist. I'm just not sure that's what Matt. 17:20 is saying.
Half way to 1,000 likes!
I'm glad we can disagree about the book of Revelation and still be God's children.....and friends!!!!!!
Honest question: Why do you say 1000 years and 144,000 people symbolic but 42 months isn't in Revelation? Everything else makes sense to me. Am I missing something?
Its not 42 months of war its much more but the 42 months are from the beggining of neros persecution to his death
Okay….. so Isaiah chapter 65 does really read like a death sentence and execution order for the nation of Israel. But what about Ezekiel chapter 37? The imagery is clearly of a mass grave of the slain, of Israel, dead for a LONG time, and far away, cut off from their land- and the Lord breathes life, brings them from far off, up from their graves, and causes them to settle in the land of Israel again. Right? The significance? I don’t know! God’s amazing power
Great show
Can someone explain how Doug’s version of post-mill differs from a-mil? It sounded very a-mil to me.
kbuzbee the world will get better as the kingdom slowly grows
Nathan Inman Thanks Yeah, I hear it now.
@@nathaninman3006 if this is true explain how we are progressively sliding into apostasy as a civilization. that is the biggest issue i have with Kingdom now theology. if we are living in his promised kingdom how is it that the world has become progressively worse, not better. He is the perfect King and Lord.
Michael Ransdell my understanding is even post mil says there will be a brief falling away period. It’s also possible we’re just still a long way off. The world is getting better overall by most metrics. Less war. Lower aggregate crime rates. Lowest poverty. Christianity exploding in China, Iran, Africa. It’s possible we already “reached the uttermost parts of the world” and are near the final defeat of death... but it’s also possible is 10,000+ from now. If you had a one way ticket in a time machine to go only backwards and had to pick any even hundred year where would you rather live? I’d stay put. I don’t wanna live in a world without anesthesia, antibiotics, CPAP machines and so many other things that make our lives better. Yes, some of those are material arguments... but many advancements of medicine have come from a Christian worldview or directly from Christians. anesthesia is a prime example, as a Christian man reading Genesis noticed God put Adam asleep for “surgery” to take the rib and form Eve. He said, why are we keeping people awake? And went on a journey to figure it out.
Concerning end time’s prophecy Daniel said, “None of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”
Daniel’s prophecy has been sealed up until the TIME OF THE END; not 70 AD. If only the wise understand Daniel’s prophecy then it follows that those who do not understand are foolish and wicked. These Calvinists and their cohorts are therefore foolish and wicked.
In Luke 21 Jesus warns the Israelites to flee to the mountains when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Jesus goes on to say there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
While these events unfolded in 70 AD, in the same breath Jesus continued to speak of events which have not yet occurred, or, in some cases, are beginning to occur. He spoke about dismay among nations, men fainting from fear, powers of the heavens will be shaken, it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth, nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, great earthquakes, plagues and famines, terrors and great signs from heaven.
In Matthew 24 Jesus warns of the destruction of the temple and then in the same breath provides signs for the end of the age. Jesus did not speak of the church because the church had not been revealed and was a mystery at that time. Many of the signs are repeated in this passage and Jesus gives a warning to flee to the mountains when they see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet. This is a different warning to the one given in Luke where they were told to flee when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. This ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION can only occur when the third temple is built; keep watching Israel as plans for the third temple are now underway.
Jesus said, “When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.”
We need to be like the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times and knew what to do; we need to believe what the prophets taught and we must be like the Bereans and study to see if these things be so.
This right here. Praise God👏🙌
If anyone builds a new temple in Israel, look for me to rip it down. It's absurd. WE are the temple. No architectural temple is needed. It would only be a lie and a distraction. Tell me this: If you rebuild the temple, are you going to put the veil back in place - the one that was torn when Jesus was executed? If you do put that back in place, then you are flat-out evil.
@@TheRKae The Church is the ‘mystery’ kingdom. God’s promises, through His prophets, have not changed. A third temple will be built because the Bible says so. This Tribulation temple is not God’s temple but will be built in order to fulfil the prophecy of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet. God’s temple will be built at the start of the millennium as recorded by Ezekiel.
I would like to take a selfie of you ripping down the temple but I would have been taken out by then.
@@gregjay9933 It's only an abomination if it's wicked in the sight of God. The only thing that would be an abomination is a rebuilt temple. Read the book of Hebrews.
At 11:32, so, if you are banking on some of the early giants of the faith having a similar understanding as you do as proof of the validity of your position, then what do you do with the Didache which treats Matthew 24 as a yet future event? One is correct, and the other is incorrect, but both are understandings of the early church.
What about Wormwood?
wormwood is another name for Jesus Christ
This is basically Replacement Theology. It’s hard to imagine the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel actually did happen already (Ac 1:6-11). Has anyone considered why Jesus didn’t rebuke the disciples for asking Him “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"(v.6) He rebuked Peter for trying to intrude upon God’s plan for Christ’s crucifixion, don’t you think Jesus would’ve done the same with this question? Jesus spent 40days with them after His Resurrection, “speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God”(v.3) and when He’s given a golden opportunity to rebuke the disciples and teach them that He actually taught the A-Millennial view, He did not rebuke them but actually said “ It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority..”(v.7)
It seems like most A&Post millennialists hold so much to Augustinian eschatology that they completely change their interpretative method when it comes to Prophetic books. This view would say God doesn’t keep His Covenants which He has made exclusively with Israel; and to blend the Church with Israel is just an inconsistent exegesis that will always corrupt the eschatological position. Get Israel right and you’ll get your eschatology right.
Actually Jesus did correct them, He said my kingdom is not of this world (inhabited earth). In other words, its not a physical kingdom. He said the kingdom was at hand and then the same hour he ascended he said all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Him (compare this to the Lord's Prayer). So Jesus began to reign immediately, not thousands of years in the future. The assertion that he still has a time yet to rule means that he does not have all authority now
This is most assuredly NOT replacement theology. God has always had only one people and we, as Gentiles, are grafted into Israel. It's not that complicated.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Exactly, He has been reigning as king of his kingdom since the ascension. He will continue to do so until the last day
@@mchristr just to tack on to what you said. The elect are God's people, whether jew or gentile. One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Paul, I wrote an article that should clear this up. "Replacement Theology" is a term thrown around by Dispensationals to try and demonize the other positions. As it turns out, NONE of the early church fathers put a distinction between Israel and the Church, and rightly so.
Here's the link to my article if you're interested.
jonahsaller.com/index.php/2020/04/29/why-a-distinction-between-the-church-and-israel-is-impossible/
I'm only up to 15:17 and I'm glad finally a question of mine was answered! I was hoping they didn't teach Jesus wasn't coming again because... that would be a real bummer. I've kept hearing bits & pieces of the way Apologia teaches this topic, but it was never fully clear to me. Hopefully this interview will continue to clarify it for me.