What are Jedi actually supposed to do?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2024
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RobotHead made an Acolyte video yesterday pointing out that since the Acolyte is the earliest chronological Star Wars we have now, if someone starts out in SW by watching that show, that is their first impression of the Jedi, and that is disturbing. The Jedi come off as an unchecked powerful cult who come to take your children away if they feel like it. That’s the kind of damage something like The Acolyte can do to the franchise and why it matters that it was so bad.
Ohhhh god 😞
Compared to the smaller less powerful cult that was hiding children because they are not supposed to have them.
The earliest chronological Star Wars are the EU's Dawn of the Jedi comics. These normies don't know anything.
That's what prequel fans already think
@@saberiandream316 Sorry, I meant live action, wasn’t counting comics, books, games or anything like that.
It isn't a coincidence that episode 1 opens with Qui-Gon being tasked to peacefully settle a dispute. That opening scene communicates to the audience for the first time (chronologically) who the Jedi are and how they're supposed to act. They resolve conflicts first through conversation and understanding, and violence only when necessary.
The Jedi are like the lightsabers they carry "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age"
Amen.
I would rather say that sabers in general are from a less civilised age😢
Even though Lucas took inspiration from Kurosawa films, I’ve always felt that the character of Li Mu Bai from “Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon” really encapsulated what a Jedi should be.
Calm and wise, but not afraid to draw a sword when he sees the local magistrate being overwhelmed by criminals. Then when he realises that Jen is being corrupted into villainy by Jade Fox, he tries everything in his power to rescue the young lady’s soul and bring her to the light.
A really good movie, I can’t recommend it enough. ❤
As someone who lives in Beijing, I get irrationally excited when they’re walking into Beijing 前门 near the start of the movie seeing the market stalls and everything as they were like in the past. Fantastic movie!
Couldn't agree more! To me, "Crouching Tiger" is the best non-canon Jedi" movie!
To me a jedi is someone who upholds peace, preserves and spreads knowledge/understanding, guides individuals away from the influence of the Dark side and defends the innocent. They don't seek out conflict but when there is no other option, they do what they must to end it.
Call my answer generic, but that's what I believe.
Your answer is better than most of the comments here. A Jedi is someone who focuses on following the force and uses their great power to defend the helpless and only fight if it’s a last resort
For me the Jedi should be like knight errands, they roam the galaxy, guided by the Force and help people, kinda like what we do on sidequests, until one day they are called to act upon something bigger, something that could change the galaxy.
I think some of them still do that it’s why I like tales of the Jedi comics and the old republic stuff .
Knights errants, yes, combined with the self-discipline of a monk.
@@leonais1 with a mix of Samurai/Ronin in terms of skills.
2:05 That said... Yes, lightsabers are quite effective against tanks. We see this in the Clone Wars TV series. XD
Emperor Palpatine did a good number on the Jedi: Manufactured a galactic war w/ Count Dooku; Used Chancellor Vallorum's indecisiveness regarding Naboo to get him outed and using his popularity and guile to get him elected as High Chancellor; used the Separatist Movement to keep the Jedi distracted encouraging their involvement in the manufactured war; manipulated Counselor Jar-Jar Binks into suggesting Palpatine be granted unrestricted authority until the manufactured crisis abated; upon being exposed, killed all the Jedi attempting to usurp his position (except for Yoda who sought exile) then using their attempt to remove him from his position to be declared 'Emperor'; uses the Clone Troopers to eradicate almost all the Jedi, having been nicely set up to take the fall by their own troops fighting in a manufactured war Emperor Palpatine created. It's not hard to understand how he managed to fool the Jedi until he was in the most ideal position to put down the Jedi in one fell swoop. I'd say it was quite masterful, and a good explanation why even just one Dark Force wielder can cause untold calamity across the galaxy. I like to think the idea of 'balance' regarding the Force is being aware that the Dark Side exist...but not rely upon it because the Dark Side causes imbalance (I don't know why some people can't understand that part).
I consider palpatine getting elected in TPM as the moment he won.
And Mace kicking his ass as the moment he came closest to losing. The only moment that happened. Ok yea the Yoda fight was close but he had already “won” by destroying the order.
Frankly had Anakin never been found Palpatine would not even have had the moment of risk with Mace.
There's a lovely scene in Dark Force Rising, the second Thrawn Trilogy book.
Luke is waiting for a contact in a cantina, on a mission as ever. And there's a fight in the cantina. Two aliens are arguing over a contract. One of them has removed some difficult pests from the other's land, but the landowner is trying to pay the pest-controller in Imperial currency, which isn't worth much in the systems the pest-controller lives in. Angry voices are raised, blasters are drawn, and it looks like Luke's going to have to step in, when -
- the pest-controller ASKS him in. Not to fight, but to mediate the dispute. "You cheat me! I call on Jedi for judgement!"
Luke is caught off-guard - wait, what? Yoda never talked about this. And he's about to say that he can't help, but then he looks around at all the faces in the cantina, the patrons, the bartender, everyone. They're alarmed at the sudden violence, but they're all thankful and relieved that a Jedi is here to smooth it out.
And so Luke steps in, and does his best to find a compromise between the two parties to avoid a fight. With him there, both parties know that the other can't escalate things to violence. They have faith that a Jedi is an impartial mediator. And... eventually, they accept what he has to say,
That was written in 1992, 7 years before the Phantom Menace was even a thing, before most of the EU novels were written even. That trilogy, and the Hand of Thrawn duology that came after, got exactly what the Jedi thing was about.
The EU has so many amazing Jedi moments where it shows their compassion
That reminds me of the first time I played a paladin in Baldur's Gate 3. In the Emerald Grove, there's a discussion around the guilt of a child who stole a religious idol from the druids there, and as a paladin, the druid arguing for punishment actually calls on the player character to render judgement, agreeing to abide by your decision. It was a really neat little thing.
If you want to be technical, we first see how a Jedi are supposed to function in the cantina scene in A New Hope. Ben sees Luke is in trouble and tries to talk to the thugs first before engaging in anything. Ben does his best but the thugs' resort to violence really quickly which leads to Ben using his lightsaber.
Lucas is referring to their role as peacekeepers being corrupted when they were drafted into war generals. Not that the Jedi are corrupt or are corrupted for being forced to be involved in the war.
In regards to the Jedi Order, they are an "order", they are not vagrants or vigilantes. As Lucas explained, they are public servants, and only go and act when and where they are allowed to. Their ways and code are not random either. It's a reflection of their wisdom, knowledge and discipline. They exist for a reason. There's a reason why the Jedi only take one Padawan at a time. There's a reason why Jedi training starts very early on. There's a reason why they believe what they believe. There's a reason why they are structured the way they are structured. Lucas has explained all that many times. He even said more than once that part of the reason why Anakin fell is because he started his Jedi training too late, and that Qui-Gon was wrong in wanting to take someone that old for Jedi training. He was right about Anakin being the Chosen One, but he was wrong in trying to overlook the problem of someone who was already too old.
Fans tend to view Qui-Gon as the best representation of the Jedi because he "does what he wants", but that's not true either. Qui-Gon doesn't do what he wants. He still follows the Jedi way. When he doesn't get his way, he accepts, he respects and honors his superiors. He's strict, not unlike Yoda with Luke in the original trilogy. The first warning that he gives Anakin in regards to becoming a Jedi is that it's a hard life, full of sacrifices.
It's not just Qui-Gon. Legends retconned most of what Lucas has said (case in point what KotOR presented as "the Jedi Code") presenting those things as not reasonable and honed by experiance, but dogmatic (and therefore hypocritical because dogma is an attachment) nonsense. I think one of the NJO books even climed the PT-Jedi Way was borne of the fear of the Dark Side.
Ironically Legends made Jedi to bre wrong about attachments largely out of attachment to previous writing desicions.
@@mpnuorva Yes, the EU/Legends is no different from Disney in how far they diverge from Lucas.
Another opinion is that Anakin wasn't to old, but that the Jedi denied human feelings and emotions. I guess it's something that wasn't the use in the beginning of the order, but what developed over the centuries. And that was Anakins weak spot, that Palpatine could use. Not everyone is born to be a monk.
@@fiktivhistoriker345 It's not an opinion that Anakin is too old, it's a fact. And Jedi don't "deny" feelings and emotions. They are trained to control them, like any reasonable person has to in order to be a functional and rational human being. It's one of the reasons why they excel at diplomacy and at upholding peace and justice. People that live by emotions or refuse to have the discipline to control them are easily manipulated and don't have sound judgement.
in Star Wars they are the “heroes”. Symbols of hope and good. This new glorifying the sith dogshit aint it
typical though, I was always wondering why men felt a need to be bad in order to get attention from women. A true leader knows he's powerful he doesn't need to act on his impulses to show off. it's clumsy and beneath him. getting angry all the time and screaming, being out of control and not planning so that chaos can turn harmony upside down. they just like the fashion sense the sith have. black. that's as deep as they bothered to look. But I agree, making Rey the face of the franchise and she's the king sith is just, that's their solution? Geesh
Peacekeepers, negotiators, diplomats. Space arbitrators.
This would be a great show btw. Two Jedi sent on peacekeeping missions to different planets. Maybe three or four planets per season. Just a planetary tour with a couple of characters and a larger conflict on the horizon. One of the weaknesses of Star Wars to me is that despite all the world building, we don’t have a lot of world lore outside of secondary media. That’s why we keep going back to Tattooine. It’s what the average person knows and expects to see. TCW wasn’t just great for the Clone Troopers and Jedi in the show. It was also great for bringing these side planets into focus. The setting was the *entire* galaxy. We saw Ryloth. Mon Cala. Zygerria. Dathomir! Mandalore for the first time! Ilum. Umbara. Life on Kamino. We saw the Separatist Senate! I feel like no consideration is put into the location or culture of live action Star Wars compared to TCW. Maybe it’s the limitation of creating multiple sets
This a great point. Going to other planets I feel what the sequel trilogy kind of lack. The other planets did feel alien enough.
This is where animated shows are better than live action for the majority of sci fi. You get to have more imaginative worlds not worried about set budget and the laws of physics.
In the comics, some of the Jedi were like you describe : drifters that went where the force told them to go. Like some kind of Knight Errant. It was allowed, apparently, but not encouraged, since Jedi are needed to be part of a recognized group, backed by the senate, to have a galaxy wide influence.
Hey Thor,
This video got me to think about a situation where What Would A Jedi Do that has no good solution. Note I do this not out of malice, but out of respect for your knowledge of Star Wars, and my wanting to set the bar very high and then challenge you to clear it. The situation I came up with will sound similar to those familiar with the trolley problem.
The situation: A jedi is on a very long and important mission, and sees a person who is in danger and will die if nobody intervenes. The Jedi sees nobody else can intervene, and can only save this person by sacrificing themselves. The traditional answer would suggest that the selfless jedi would make the sacrifice. However, this jedi is aware of the fact that making this sacrifice would result in the failure of the mission, and many possible deaths and a lot of suffering as a direct result. It would also permanently make it so that this jedi wouldn't be able to save others on other future missions, effectively letting an unknown number of people in the future die. Also note that too many jedi making this sacrifice would eventually weaken the order to the point where it would struggle to function. In this situation, a jedi would also not have enough time to weigh the numbers heavily, they have only a split second to decide, and there are no other alternatives.
In your mind, what would a jedi do?
I broadly agree with you (though would give more grace on the Jedi being self assured… they have been winning for a long time). I don’t think the order is aloof however as we see all the Jedi get down into the mud, as it were, all of the time.
I also think having a more structured order, with a clear set of rules, is ultimately a good thing. It helps organise training, prevents rogues and creates a solid support structure.
I also don’t hold Qui Gon as a paragon of Jedi ness. There is a lot of cultural support for the ….. loose cannon in media. The one who bends the rules to get the job done. But I don’t support it all that well.
I also would support the Jedi being aligned to the republic as again it gives them a robust backup in the form of an overall benevolent government.
Really I don’t think the Jedi could have stopped the Sith winning in the PT except at one moment. The purely physical fight between mace and Palps.
Had Mace won 30s faster and killed Palps then the Jedi would have stopped the Sith.
Mace Windu’s love of the Republic, which he equated with civilization contributed to the Jedi going all-in with the clone wars… They began becoming attached to winning-like when they viewed Kashyk as a system they could not afford to lose…that hyper- focused attachment blinded them to the evil standing right there hiding in plain sight.
Right... And what did their rules say about attachments again? What's the thing they have been practicing to not from from childhood?
Hey Thor, I really like your views and interpretations about the Force and the Jedi, not many people seem to understand it as well as you do. Have you ever though about compiling your thoughts on it somehow, maybe in a book of sorts? Maybe it's a silly idea, but I think many of us would really like something like that
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." - Ben Kenobi.
That's what the Jedi order have always been symbolized as. From the very beginning. From the source.
I think the difficult thing for Jedi is when they have to rationalize a short-term event that seems bad as somehow being in the greater good. Like, say, Vader flipping to Dark Side/Order 66, in the end eventually (at least what was supposed to be prior to Disney) let to its destruction, but the "cleansing" of the Jedi may have been necessary to accomplish the "balance".
Also, as a corollary to the above: SW as Lucas wrote it is about achieving a balance/the end of a story. Having the "one" to eventually bring balance is an end-goal prophecy that is diminished if more dark side users/sith happen afterwards. This leads two storytelling options: going way back in time to explain everything up to the point, or go way into the future when there are no more force users at all (a sort of "reset") and rediscover everything just with different events that causes unbalance and then a potentially thousands of years to re-balance things (a sort of never ending loop, ala the matrix-ish). You can't do the Rey/too close to Skywalker era/the population still knows of the Jedi/force...the universe needs to forget it first...
To me, Qui Gon Jinn is exactly what a Jedi should be.
Agreed totally. Qui Gon represented what the Jedi were suppose to be. Followed the will of the force, not being influenced by politics/the Code/etc. The Jedi at this time were over confident and followed what "politics" (Republic) and stuck to "their code" above the Force ... which led to an opening the Sith to strike. The Disney Era has really tarnished the Jedi and not understanding what the Prequels were showing regarding the Jedi. The Disney era now is ... There is no real good or bad, Jedi suck, Sith are misunderstood and sexy, etc.
Derek always comes with that logical fire.
I rarely disagree with his comments. If ever.
Obi-Wan was the brother Anakin needed, but only Qui-Gon would’ve been able to be the father to help Anakin find balance within himself
100%. Kenobi did what he could but to me it was clear he would never grow up to the task when he let the Council make Anakin a member without the master title. Qui Gon would have called them out for playing games with someone of such unique circumstances and emotional volatility.
I think i agree. I also like Luke. Both in OT and Legends.
When I first heard Mae drop the line that a Jedi does not draw her weapon unless prepared to kill, Indara should have looked at her and said that Mae revealed how little she understands about the Jedi. I was expecting her to respond with something like that, which she would have if the committee writers of The Acolyte weren't incompetent.
I am really liking THIS kind of “talking some Star Wars”!!! It’s feels good to dive into the Lucas lore and just reinforces (I realize that wasn’t the point of the video) what a huge shame it is that disney/LF did to the galaxy George Lucas created. Guardians of Peace and Justice was completely ignored by them .
Thor has countless videos like these and they are always so engrossing to watch
I think it's better to think of Jedi and Sith as selfless vs selfish instead of good vs evil. I also see a parallel between a philosophy I read about in a book called The Teachings of Don Juan by Carlos Castaneda. Don Juan teaches him of the 4 fatal foes that all men must overcome to be a man of knowledge. The first fatal foe is fear. Obviously a respected foe by the Jedi council we see in the movies. Fear took down Anakin, fear of loss, fear of death, fear of inability to help.
If you defeat fear, you are given the gift of clarity. However, clarity is the second fatal foe. You can become so hooked on your clarity, seeing 6, 7, 8 moves ahead, you don't see the dagger coming right beside you. I believe clarity took down Snoke. He couldn't see the betrayal occuring right there, because he was so focused on his vision that was not in the present moment.
If you defeat clarity, you are given the gift of power. Following the pattern, power is the third fatal foe. The power is not yours, it just is. A Jedi staying on the path sees the force as something external. The Sith see the power as theirs to hold, to wield, to use at their will. Sith sees power as something smaller than they can become. A Jedi must see the force as the greatest, largest, interconnecting power of the universe. Since the power is greater than the individual, it ultimately crushes him under the weight of that power. The emperor's belief the power was his led to his downfall.
If you overcome the temptation of power, then you've defeated the first 3 fatal foes, are well on the path of being a man of knowledge, and certainly following a path with heart. The fourth fatal foe is old age. That one gets us all. There is no overcoming old age, only gracefully accepting and allowing it.
*glances at Qui-Gon's ghost*
@@Hello-bi1pm May I ask what you mean by that? Qui-Gon is my favorite Jedi in the movies, and speaks my favorite line of dialogue in the entire saga, but I never saw the cartoons. So, I am missing a lot of context other fans of this channel may have.
I always find myself going back to Luke in empire and Jedi. In empire he learns he is not supposed to be a warrior charging into the front lines of battle, in Jedi he learns to rise above the darkness around him.
Hey thor, have you ever considered using Dooku as a prime example of what happens to a 'gray jedi'? He tries to use the dark side with good intentions, but it only leads to him becoming hateful and then suffering deeply.
Great vid Thor. Important messages for the Star Wars fans
For 1 thing, Jedi are not supposed to be legbreakers for the Senate
The Sopranos in space? I'd watch that.
Honestly, showing the Jedi *become* legbreakers for the senate would have been a pretty good way for the Acolyte to show the problems with the Jedi starting to emerge. Instead we get a Jedi Master bullshiting the Senate to save the Order's face.
IMO the Jedi heavily resemble the Templar Knights with sprinkles of eastern mysticism. The Templar were even betrayed and hunted down just like Order 66.
7:14
They are also emphasizing the "feel" aspect to connect it again to eastern monks and martial arts philosophy. Which they also emphasize the selflessness vs selfishness concept as well. Whenever Qui Gon or Yoda tells our heros to feel the force around them or trust their instincts, it is the same exact thing as when Bruce Lee says "Be Like Water, My Friend". Similar to what you're saying, Thor. Just missing the eastern philosophy that George is directly referencing . You explained it pretty well though.
Hey Thor how should Jedi Anakin have handled the death of his mother.
The mistake was Anakin going back to look for his mother and getting there just as she died in his arms.
It set off a chain of events leading to the dark side. His mom would have died whether or not he was there and at the time he did have Force healing abilities.
IDK...😮
I feel the Jedi have never been portrayed in their most ideal version, excluding Luke skywalker in return of the Jedi. In the comics like tales of the Jedi or even in the EU books the Jedi are shown in full display of their kindness as well as dedication to the force, all the movie Jedi and even the shows have always used flawed jedi, for once I would like to see the jedi in their prime
For anyone who hasn’t read those Star Wars Archive books, they are 100% worth it and you can get a small edition for like $30 each.
Jedi knights need to go back to what they are meant to be. Arthurian Knights and Samurai. Warriors at peace.
Jedi Trolley problem: a trolley is going through a track that splits in four. In one of them you have Grogu, in the other Rey, in the third Osha and in the last one Mae. There is a lever the redirects the Trolley to one of the tracks. What should the Jedi do in order to kill the four of them?
They are super powered keepers of the peace who follow the will of the force.
Hey Thor, I've been wondering about droid sentience lately and why Star Wars rarely takes it seriously. I even think that people applauding clone sentience and individuality is a bit of a double standard when those same people dismiss droids as merely extensions of their creators. Even though Rex famously denies this, the fact is that clones are programmed to obey orders without question and are manufactured. Most clones only have limited independent thinking and a clone being able to live outside a military is incredibly rare. The only reason they develop individuality is because of experience. But the funny thing is, droids develop individuality for the same reason. The only difference is that droids regularly have their memories wiped specifically to prevent them from developing individuality and potentially rebelling. There's a moment in Heir to the Empire where Luke is asked why he has never wiped C-3PO's memories in all the years he's known him, and Luke reveals that he's uncomfortable with the idea of stripping his friend of individuality. And I don't know if you have played KOTOR 2 yet, but there's a mission where HK-47 argues with HK-50, who dismisses him as obsolete. But HK-47 argues that he is superior because he has developed individuality and has given himself a higher purpose and meaning because he has never had his mind wiped. These examples show that droid sentience should not be played for laughs so much in the franchise. In fact, I think the galaxy is overdue for a galaxy-wide droid revolution just to show people that sentient droids deserve equal treatment.
This is actually addressed in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Measure of a Man" where Lt. Data's rights are debated because he's an android and I wish Star Wars had something similar.
What do you think?
If you want the truth, ask a Jedi.
This parallels asking a US Marine in the Golden Age.
It bothers me a little that Qui-Gon told Obi-wan on occasion we cannot use our powers to help them and another time to Anakin...
"I did come here to free slaves..."
Like the Jedi have a Prime Directive...
I originally thought of them as something like Dr Who going around the galaxy helping others in need and following a code like the Justicars of Mass Effect or the Templars on a crusade.
They have stashes and temples all over the galaxy to sustain them.
Then came the prequels that smashed my world view. 😮
Thor, thank you for this video. I agree with your image of the Jedi and I was heartened to hear those sentiments from Lucas. But I was also frustrated. If the Prequels were supposed to be the story of how the war corrupted the Jedi then, honestly, I think the films failed. There was not enough debate about the war within the order. There should have been soul-searching meditations, heated arguments (possibly even duels), dissenting Jedi who refused to fight. Heck, the war should have torn the Jedi apart, particularly because it was not a clear fight of Good vs Evil. Jedi could have fought for the CIS just as easily. Instead, the Jedi willingly become a tool of the Republic's Army, even leading clones, living and thinking beings who were artificially bred and forced to kill and die in a wholly political war. When Obi-wan cried "my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!" it broke my heart a little. Obi-wan's allegiance should be to the Force, not a particular government.
Most of the soul-searching, conscientious objecting, and spirited debate happened in the comics part of the Clone Wars Multimedia Project from 2002 to 2005. I've seen it posited that a lot of the Jedi just assumed the CIS was "the Sith Empire without the name" and went all-in with the idea that fighting them was the only thing to do
Can't help but smile when I see Qui Gon smile at the camera :3
Hey Thor …
What if Anakin is to bring “balance to the force” as his force ghost self and not with his actions against Palpatine in Return of the Jedi?
And it could be sometime in the future beyond the Sequels still to be revealed… thus negating the issue of Palpatine somehow returning upsetting the prophecy of the chosen one … that’s how I’d “fix things”, you?
Hey Thor, High Republic era should be the era of peace across galaxy. It spanned centuries or even millennia (?). What kind of story do you think should be told in that era, highlighting the importance of jedi without removing "Star + Wars" (i.e. lightsaber fight and spaceships battle) in an interesting way?
Hey Thor how would a Jedi deal with the classic trolley problem?
Depends on how literal you're being. They'd just use the Force to stop the trolley or lift it up and past the people tied to the track😉
Hey Thor!
Thanks for the answer! I have some follow up questions and scenarios. Would love a WWJD series!
What would the the ideal Jedi do if a group of Jedi decided to leave the order and be independent Jedi or even to start their own Jedi order that was more like Luke's in Legends.
Would they accept it and not interfere, or go to war with the other Jedi order? WWJD?
What would the Ideal Jedi do if they came across cloners who created living beings to be sacrificed for war? I am obviously referring to Obi-Wan discovering the clones in AOTC. I feel like the Ideal Jedi wouldn't go along with creating life to sacrificing it and maybe arrest the cloners? What do you think? WWJD?
Would the Ideal Jedi turn to the dark side knowing they are going to sacrifice themselves to save someone else?
Let's say a Jedi Master and his Padawan are being chased by a group of Inquisitors during the dark times. They are headed for their ship to escape into hiding, but the Inquisitors are catching up to them and the Master decides to give into his rage and fear as much as he can to tap as deep into the dark side as possible, to gain the temporary strength to hold them off just long enough for his Padawan to escape to their ship and take off. Or would the Master remain in the light, accepting whatever happened to his Padawan? WWJD?
Hey Thor!
You said that Lucas has never really talked of the Jedi Order as flawed or failing, and yet as you said that is a common view in the fanbase. My question is: how much do you think this is because of Legends?
For example: In Legends the Sith are a result of Jedi falling to the Dark Side in numbers. Tales of the Jedi features two mass conversion events, Hundred-year darkness, and founding of Exar Kun's Sith Order. Knights of the Old Republic adds a third in founding of Darth Revan's Sith Empire, and Dawn of the Jedi a fourth in the First Great Schism. Even Dark Lords like Marka Ragnos, Darth Vitiate and Darth Bane that don't have a direct link to the Jedi are products of factions founded by fallen Jedi. Fallen Jedi have directly or indirectly created every major Dark Side faction of Legends before the Prequel Trilogy. Do you think this contributes to the idea of Jedi being flawed?
I would like a video of how a True Jedi would behave in practice in certain scenarios. Im currently writing my SW story and I've come to conclusion that before I dare do anything with my Force user characters, I need to understand the Force itself because both sides behave the way they do *BECAUSE* of the Force.
Great video! Excellent points! All of this!
Thor, yet again, explains what Star Wars should be and has always been, in the most understandable way. I love these videos. 🙏
Jedi should serve The Force.yet Council always can say than visions cannot be trusted,future is in motion.and better do nothing.just look how they treated Sifo dyass.
Qui-Gon seems like one of the few neutral good people in an order that’s become textbook lawful neutral.
I saw a video recently where Lucas says that qui gon knew the whole time that Padme was the queen disguised as a handmaiden. To me this would have been better represented in the way he says his lines to Padme… example if he told her “ the queen trust my judgement young ….. “and rolled his gaze and stammered a bit and sarcastically said ‘handmaiden?????? “ with a side eye. I shouldn’t have to rely on novelizations or interviews decades later for a story element to be made clear. It should contained in the movie with the right delivery and direction.
6:00 so I’ve always said that Anakin dose bring balance to the force it was just not in a way the Jedi anticipated and after the Jedi get wiped out (except for all those Jedi that escaped I ran you lift up another rock in the middle of nowhere and “”ANOTHER ONE?””) Vader goes on to wipe out all the Sith too, perfectly balanced.
I mean to quote Yoda “”a prophecy that Miss read could have been?””
Probably a lot of writing policy papers and attending conferences.
"A study on the effects of an all thala-siren milk diet on midichlorian regeneration" etc
@ThorSkywalker, you are our only hope!
I disagree that they followed the will of the senate too much, at least in episode 1 and arguably 2. In 1 the Jedi council literally signs off with no disagreement on Jinn and Kenobi ignoring the senate/courts and helping Padme violently resolve the Naboo problem. In the start of the clone wars, they had to find a way to protect people in the republic from the droid armies. Becoming generals may not have been the best answer, but it was one that was logistically sound and in serval cases served to magnify their impact on a positive direction and conduct of the war (for instance, many cared more for the clones than a generic republic officer would have). I also think that if the Jedi had sat out the war Palpatine would have had an easy time branding them as traitors or at least the public would be indifferent to their fate when 66 came. That was what was brilliant about the clone wars for the Sith, there was no perfect move for the Jedi to make, they can't morally or practically abandon the citizens but getting too involved has many downsides as well. Its an impossible situation.
Perhaps the Jedi serving as a sort of special forces branch outside of but in regular coordination with the clone army would be a good compromise, its hard to say.
The Jedi, as I understood them, are an order of warriors that seek to understand and harmonize with the Force in its natural, balanced, state which might be summed up as being for the good of all living things. This requires them to act in harmony with this cosmic good, renouncing any personal inclinations or ambitions that would tempt them to use the power of the Force to put some lives ahead of others, and this puts the Force out of balance, darkening it.
The Jedi of the Old Republic, so long as they strove to keep the Force as balanced as possible, possessed a power that did not corrupt. When they acted, it was never for power or gain, but for the good of all, and they built up a large reservoir of public trust. They were seen as guardians of peace and justice for truth, not just image, and peaceful governments flourished wherever the Jedi held a presence.
Naturally, Jedi fell to the dark side here and there. And I think there were times when the wisdom of the Jedi waned and they paid too much attention to the stresses of politics or the dangers of the material world, and this made them at times less effective and more corruptible. The Clone Wars are probably a good example.
Hey Thor exactly how different were the Sith before the rule of two was even a thing in Star Wars?
The Jedi putting Padawans in positions of military authority is indefensible to me. Jedi Knights being made generals is questionable but can be argued, putting Padawans in the military at all is also questionable at best but also can be argued.
But putting children in a position of authority over an army??? Why? Putting aside the moral argument it's just tactically unsound to make inexperienced teenagers commanders.
The only in universe explanation I could think of for this is that maybe there's an old Republic law that was put into place back when the Sith Empire was running around, making it so that all Jedi had positions of authority in the military during wartime and the law just never got repealed.
If that was in TCW, you can ignore it as Filoni's stupidity.
Wasn't it an army of ten year olds anyway with them clones? That's a whole different can of worms
I feel like time and time again, people's biggest hangups with the Jedi come down to them thinking that they aren't really allowed to feel anything. They attach their current perceptions of love and attachment to someone who has magical powers far beyond any of our understanding(which is really any at all). No one stops to think maybe the Jedi all accept that they can't live for other people as much as they want people they can't live without. That, at least in the Star Wars universe, romantic feelings are possessive by default and not selfless. Even in our own world, plenty of philosophies say that personal feelings often stand in the way of working for what is right. Why would Star Wars be any different, and why wouldn't someone who strives for the ideal not want someone who can give their all for what is good and true?
@@thefreshestslice4105 bingo the no attachment rule is why people have a problem with the Jedi. People with families are unable to look past it. They are unable to fathom that Jedi aren’t normal people and willingly give up their desires for the common good.
@thefreshestslice4105 hit the nail on the head, people can't get it through their thick skulls that jedi live in a different more holistic manner compared to you or I
It would be one thing if you read the fine print and understood what you were signing up for. Entirely different for some government backed, armed sorcerer to bang on a parent's door at the crack of dawn and start in with "Your child is divergent. Therefore, he needs to go with us. No, he will never see or hear from you again. He will essentially be sacrificed to the Republic. But what an honor!"
Hey Thor,
If it was the wrong thing for the Jedi to join in and fight in the clones wars as generals, what were they supposed to do?
Jedi....in my opinion... the servants to the force. They should follow the force above all with some input from the council. The idea of knowledge and defense is the best objective every jedi should follow. And should never fear their emotions but to understand and master them. Qui Gon wasn't the perfect jedi but the closest to the notion of the group.
interestingly enough thor skywalker, the pre-exar kun war jedi order was the embodiment of that...a loose connection of individuals that freely wandered the galaxy to do as they felt was right.
Hey Thor,
since you talk a lot about what you think Lucas means by balance in the Force and how he said everyone in that Galaxy has a destiny: do you think, keeping in mind that balance doesn’t mean equal parts light and dark, that some people are destined to become Sith? Or is it that they choose to be selfish? How do we know Anakin isn’t destined to become Vader? And to add to that, how do we know if it’s Anakin’s destiny to become Vader because that’s the only way to stop the Emperor by the point he kills Windu? In other words, is SW destiny perhaps conditional, as in to stop the Emperor after a certain point it has to be from within, if you will?
Also maybe Palpatine was destined to become Sidious to realign the dogmatic Jedi order and re-attune the Jedi to the Will of the Force.
Would love to hear your own take on this, to me it’s quite the conundrum due to it having so many layers.
Still the jedi during the Acolyte was completely lost, so they must have chaped up a bit up until TPM
4:23 I think the flaw was the complacency they got from being free from the threat of the dark side that allowed Palpatine to overwhelm them with dark side cloud cover. This is hinted at in the prequels by the Jedi themselves but I don’t think the writing, staging, storyboarding, editing, pacing or directing have enough weight to those revelations. They were throw away lines said in passing to get to the next scene. Lucas failed as a director in that. When Yoda said “ a prophesy that misread might be……” they cut the scene. Hold on…. Wait….. explore that. Discuss it. What made Yoda say that? Why did windu agree? No
Let’s focus on sand being too coarse and getting everywhere instead.
Hey Thor, I believe that Confucianism essentially states what a Jedi should be. Padawans are Gentlemen (Junzi, a state of development that the majority of people are capable of), Knights are Warrior-Scholars (disciples of Sages), and Masters are Sages (very few. Examples would be Socrates, the Jade Emperor, and if Luke/Yoda took the Throne. Essentially a Philosopher-King). In the Western Tradition, it would equate to Squires - Knights - Philosophers.
Scenarios could include: How would these Wayward Jedi make a living? How would the Wayward Jedi handle a conflict of the will of the Force and Jedi from the Order coming to mediate a dispute?
I love derpy Chewbacca from _ROTS._
1:48 If you don't comply, your hands come off. These guys keep governments in line. He said the quiet part loud.
It would have been so easy in The Acolyte. Sol just had to say "I sense some dark power we must save the girls from". According to the behaviour of the witches we all would have agreed. Also i think, that not the age of the children is a problem, but that the Jedi denied normal human feelings. The rule of a padawan to start before a certain age might have developed later.
Can you go through the acolyte but run through it from the perspective of how a Jedi should act. Like if Sol or Vanestra was replaced with Quigon or Obiwan
To me Luke, Qui gon jinn and Obi wan are different kinds of Jedi but represent what Jedi are to me or Mace Windu
The rules exist for reasons the prequels show.
In other words, the Jedi are like our U.S. ambassadors.
Hey Thor! Just wanted to point out a little goof you made at 5:46 you said Sequels instead of Prequels lol.
Great video. Hey Thor, if the Jedi should be wandering and helping people around the galaxy, why do you think that they don't free the slaves? For example, Qui Gon Jinn had the power to do it. Or at least to free Anakin's mom. I don't understand that part of the lore.
Complacency. Their guard was down because of the Sith's patience and the Jedi started believing their own confidence.
Hey Thor! You argue that being a good jedi is one that follow's what their feelings tell them is the right thing to do. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but it makes me question how this approach differs from what Count Dooku did. He meant that the system was inherently corrupted and that it was crucial to be done something about, therefore he made a ton of sacrifices and perhaps went down a peculiar path to reach his goals. Ultimately, didn't he also just do everything because he was under the impression that what he did was the right thing to do? Where would you say that he first took a step in the wrong direction?
Hey Thor, suppose during Episode III, when the Jedi are trying to arrest Palpatine that Anakin shows up and saves the day by killing him.
Do you think the Jedi Council would then give him the rank of master?
If Anakin then revealed he had impregnated Padme, would the Jedi Council accept it?
So if I understand this correctly the Jedi shouldn't be loyal to one side or the other? Should they have just forced the chancelor to sign a peace after he became the main person pushing the war?
Yes, there were issues in the Jedi order. Not fatal flaws or anything, but they were a bit... arrogant... At the point they stopped to listen to the force and started to listen to politics.
That's what opened the door for Palpatine.
How were the Jedi arrogant? What are some examples of them showcasing arrogance? When did they listen to "politics" instead of the Force? And I put politics in quotes because a lot of the time I've been seeing "following politics" as an accusation for "not doing whatever they want/what I expect them to".
@@leahvolmer9210 Watch the prequels again.
@@MCsCreations I have. More than you, I bet.
The Jedi and Republic simply did not have the man power to police the outer rim.
That's just what I always thought it was. Republic money did not even matter/count in there, so the outer rim is essentially a lawless region where the republic forces are drawn too thin and too far away to really do much of anything about the contraband and shady hutt businesses and other crime syndicates in power.
4:48 Actual AF.
To me, the prequel era Jedi were complacent, overconfident, and too used to following their code. They had become idealogues of a sort and had largely lost the ability to deal with situations their code was inadequate for, as seen with Anakin. Thus, they were completely unprepared for the emerging threat of the Sith. But they were not evil.
I think the Sith has worked a long time (1000 years) to instal flaws and cracks in the order. Remove a screw here and take away a plank there that open up the events of the clone wars. Its like a tidal wave working on a beach. Not much will happen untill the beach is breached and crack.
I also dont think all the Jedi are perfect even in the perfect organisation. Many individual Jedi will do small or big errors - Even with the best of intetions there wilk be misstakes under a millenia.
Theyre humans (you know what I mean) not super humans.
Hey, Thor!
I see the Jedi are like shepherds who keep an eye on the herd, and referees who don't let each other be beaten to death. After all, midi-chlorians, as cattle breeders, have created symbiotic species for themselves, and maintain their habitat with the help of their technology - the Force.
Hey Thor,
Do you think the prophecy is actually meant to be set in stone? A lot of the Jedi don't particularly believe in it, and it seems like Palpatine at the very least managed to severely alter the prophecy by manipulating Anakin. Seeing as the Darkside "won" in episode 3, and the Jedi never mention the prophecy again after that do you feel like the prophecy is really still fully applicable after episode 3?
I personally feel like not all Jedi putting much weight in the prophecy is an invitation for the audience to believe, or not believe in the prophecy. It feels like a lot of SW fans view the prophecy as immutable, but it doesn't feel like the story actually treats it that way, a prophecy can change depending on people's decisions it seems.
Not getting into Mara's "town in the floodplain" lesson for Anakin?
The only issue with the prequel Jedi to me is they are complacent due to being in peace for so long as well as being sure of themselves but otherwise they're good Dave Filoni and tcw fans blame Jedi etc for anakins fall among other things he clearly doesn't speak or share George's vision
Hey Thor, I've always questioned the notion that Jedi should not fight in wars. I suppose an argument can be made that they should have stayed out of something like the clone war, but what about wars where the galaxy was truly at risk? There's the Mandalorian war from the EU, and from what I remembered, and correct me if I'm wrong, the Mandalorians had backed the Republic into a corner and it wasn't until Revan and other Jedi got involved when the tide began to turn. There's also the Galactic Civil War where the Sith had taken over the galaxy. I'm not saying the Jedi had to all band together and take the Sith head on, that would have been suicide, but there were Jedi working with the Rebellion, i.e. Kota, Starkiller, and Kanaan, wouldn't that be a moment when Jedi need to go to war? Lastly, there's the Yuuzhan Vong war, where the Vong wanted to commit mass genocide and enslave the galaxy, something that the Jedi would have to fight if they want to protect everybody. All I'm saying is, while the Jedi should be acting to prevent wars, I think there are times when war is unavoidable and the Jedi would need to get involved. Thoughts?
🦖👾Stormtrooper Riding dinos
I think they made a mistake in the prequels defining the Jedi too close to the republic and too top-down and rules-based.
Hey Thor, if the force is all knowing and should be followed, why did it create the chosen one in such a circumstance that they would be so easily corruptable? Especially since it is posited that the chosen one was created in reaction to the horrid experiments of Darth P.
Hey guys
Ah, mesa not mistakening dis: it's like mesa likén de pancakes. But dat notten meaning mesa flat den.
Hey Thor,
To me a Jedi is supposed to be exact as the Chosen One Prophecy states. To bring balance to the force (aka to naturally efface selfishness) and defeat the sith (who are the representation of selfishness, essentially a classical Chinese Demon).
I will post a quote about the Budo philosophy (which is Japanese for the Martial Way, Budokai being Martial Arts) "On the path of budō, one does not strive for victory over an opponent… one strives to avoid defeat by one's own self. To do that you must train yourselves on the foundation of what you have learned until now." Thats essentially the philosophy of the Jedi. They’re centered around compassion, joy, and selflessness. While the Sith are the opposite. They’re centered around possession, pleasure, and selfishness. This is why the idea of a “Grey Jedi” sort of misses the whole point of what the Jedi and Sith believe. Once you allow yourself to indulge in your own selfish desires and your own ego, forever will it dominate your destiny.
Look into the movie Yojimbo. A movie George Lucas was 100% influenced by.
I never understood how or why the Jedi let slavery be so rampant in the galaxy that s always bothered me, I like Star Wars and the Jedi but that always messed with me.
The jedi are loosely based of if the bene gesserit.
I would love to see a nicely handled Sith centric show following the opposite of what a Jedi is…. But at no point should it ever be suggested that they are in the right. The basic premise of this show is good. Someone is killing Jedi. It’s a murder mystery. Spending a season figuring it out sounds great with a cliff hanger reveal that the sith have shown their faces. Good writers and directors could have made a compelling show around this.
What Jules is still doing.
Isn’t being too sure a downfall at time? A Flaw?
I think a lot of people forget/overlook that the Jedi are a religious order in a similar manner to the likes of the Catholic Church.
Granted a Catholic Church with super powers but still, I mean heck a lot of people IRL forget that the catholic Church owns its own’s Independent country, the Jedi don’t have that level of power within the galactic republic but they are given carte Blanche on all maters force related.
If we are talking what they should be I don’t think this is a definition as that’s the thing about faith it’s different to each person it’s when you start organising faith that it becomes structured and also I’m my book turns from a system of belief into a cult with someone else telling you what you should and shouldn’t believe in, I think we can say more about what a Jedi shouldn’t be than what they should be.
Out of all the Jedi we see in the films/shows I think Qui-gon Jinn is the purest version of a Jedi, with hermit Yoda been the next in line, I think Luke is close but is too burdened with a sense of destiny to be a true will of the force, most of the Jedi in the prequels act like an arm of the galactic republic military that as a monk.