Dismantling YourOverwatch's Pro 5v5 Argument (Overwatch 2)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024
- Why The 5v5 Defenders are WRONG... (Overwatch 2)
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#Overwatch2 #Gaming
Yeah I'm sure all the new players LOVE being spammed with "Tank Diff" every game... It fosters such an attachment and love for playing the role...
Know that feeling tank gets blamed no matter what happens its crazy
I wish this was top comment.
Get 60+ elims on Zarya "tank diff"
My first unranked competitive game as tank in Overwatch 2 was literally just getting destroyed by the enemy tank with "tank diff" typed in chat.
If the enemy tank types "tank diff" or "mtd" to you, it's just banter between two tank players. It's never supposed to be toxic, offensive, or an insult. It's just friendly banter and tank players know this. But if dps or support players type it, they mean it.
i feel like 5v5 showed that the problem with overwatch isn't the number of players per role, but it's the design behind the roles themselves.
yes and no. 2,2,2 was popular for the very reason no-player was ever alone, 3,3,0 worked similarly. 1,2,2 doesn't work because you remove the balance of the role itself. 1 tank vs 2 of dps and support is an imbalance in enagagement. That said the Problem was and allways was that you had ability overlap within each role. This is a hot take:
Tanks, should never be able to do a DPS' job on cooldown alone.
A DPS should never be able to do a Supports Job on cooldown alone.
A Support should never be able to do a Tanks job on cooldown alone.
The circular balance should be applied to the roles kits not as passives but their design.
Example Immortality abilities, if they were tank abilities and they applied ONLY to a tanks teammates, the Tank funktions as a protection layer, I.e. A barrier, a Defence Matrix A hook, A bubble, etc.
Roles only work as long as a role does not have agency to do everything, while not being unable to impact the game at all.
Barriers being rotational between players made them infinite, and you actually had this very ability in the game when Rammatra had Infinite ultimate potential. Infinite Block or infinite barrier its the same result.
AOE healing kits stacking is an issue because this is the same issue as double barriers but with healing.
No hero would ever be problematic if the game was 3v3 role locked 1,1,1. But the game would be boring because everyone would be playing alone to fill their role unless you had full dive, as Winston, Genji, Mercy, or brawl as in Rein, Lucio/Ana, Mei/Reaper/McCree etc. you would simply have to play as a stacked unit all the time not unlike goats.
What 2 tanks allows you to do is to have a way to deal with each role who might have a struggling player, by reallocating resources, because you will have a surplus in another role as a result. With only 1 tank you can never as a tank peel for the support if the DPS cannot do it alone, and a support who ends up having to fight their own battles wont have any way of aiding their solo tank. If you have tank synergy then you can sustain temporarily for a period where the supports are occupied or reallocate a tank resource to help out so you, wont ever have to be vulnerable as a solo tank. A prime example rn. Dive bombs the enemy, Rein turns around to shield, if this rein does not have a kiriko with cleanse the whole team dies the moment he is hit by a sleepart, or gets burned down by headshots and a discord, or stunned by a brig CC. The issue is that you can't give both agency to carry and rely on teamwork at the same time. You can at best do a rotational balance between role's agency. So for instance Baptiste and Kiriko cannot have AOE immortalities, or undo mistake. Mercy Ressurect is the same, it was better when it was an ultimate, but honestly it should have not been a 1 button ability, it should have been a protjectile ressurect with a limited range.
At the same time you have map issues with spawn distance, advantage, and respawn time, for maps such as 2cp. And final point Escort. If your team dies then you keep fighting unleas you are not on defence or get picked within the same time frame. The capture of such an objective was obscenely hard and required coordination not found in metal leagues. So while a lot has to do with abilities, its more so how abilities interact with each other in OW1 as opposed to OW2 where every hero can do everything, and the Tank is just along for the ride unless you gap all players on the enemy team with a counter cooldown for you. DPS feels the same, they can't really kill anything without their tanks, but their tank might not be able to leave the objective because he is only a single player, and if he leaves noone gets healed because the supports are busy fighting for their own lives.
The issue with OW1 and 2 is the same, Heroes can do too much of other roles "job", and that is an issue in itself, but it becomes more potent when abilities or functions thereof can stack for a duration of another cooldown. Support is the most potent for this atm. Doubble barrier in OW1 was an issue because Fortify, Orissas, barrier and another barrier could be used on cooldown and was very very hard to break this rotation by breaking the barriers, and people just fortied their positions as if it was Verdun or Argonne in WW1. Attackers would storm an inpenetratiable defnse respawn after respawn, and when they finally won a team fight, they wouldn't capture point because of Spawn advantages, especially on 2CP.
Ana's kit as a support is different in this regard, she has a lot of agency but it comes at the expense of vulnerability, she is unable to move out of danger, and her option to avoid dying is skill based, but she only gets 1 chance, and its useless against a full dive, so she relies on her tank. But in 5v5 she is almost never under such preasure, because Kiriko can be with her in an instant, Zenyatta kan orb her + her healing amp, LW can LGrip her, moira has Ultimate on cooldown, mercy can ressurect her, or heal/boost her as often as GA is available. The support passive gives her agency to use her grenade freely, lucio can speed her around, baptiste looks her and press e or just press shift. the issue is that Support now have the ability to undo any threat to them on their own, because with 1 tank you would have no ability to do this without sacrificing yourself, this is why 1tank 3dps, 2 support was also abandoned. There is a REASON why 2-2-2 and dive was a meta: It solved all of these issues. I actually think the only way to have anything that isn't 6v6 would be 9v9.
3,3,3. maybe 8v8 could work as 3,3,2 or 2,2,2,2 with an additional role added to the game which sole purpose is peel and flank based on needs.
Finally it leaves an issue with the cooldowns being too forgivable. A moira fades, okay before you catch up with her she can fade again. And this is the issue that leads to the the stackable syngeries that lead to infinite roations. As a core principle, NOTHING in the game should result in any state of the game being theoretically or practically infinite, when that happens any player will lose the sense of impact as nothing happens. ITs a balance deadlock. Heroes who all break with this principle as of jan 23 2024:
Kiriko, Baptiste, Mercy, Roadhog, Sombra, Sojourn, Brigitte, Lucio, Moira, Reaper, Junkrat, Pharah, Rammatra, Mauga, Wreckingball, probably others i forgot.
All of these have the same fundamental flaw, when paired with 1-2 of the others on the list, their state of infinite or unkillable stalemates occur. Orisa Mauga had a point where they didn't even need that Junkerqueen also. Tuning numbers up and down just changes how much, and how frequently this happens. And which one is stronger than the other AKA OW2 Meta.
Notive of all these heroes they have all either been reworked, or added to the game at some point. With the exception of Pharah and arguably junkrat. The issue is simple... you can't give heroes a kit that gives them agency without letting it be at the expense of risk. Take ana for example if you let Ana lucios wallright, now you have a hero who is fast and agile in 3 dimensions, ana would be god tier. Or what if you let Rein hard Blink or give him maugas gun... you are making the Orisa Fortify problem then. If reinhardt healed himself for every firestrike he landed as a moira /reaper siphon.... now wouldn't that be something?
I have a few things i saw removed as Cooldowns in the game completly to prove my point:
Damage Over Time effects.
Amplified heals on AOE healing
Aoe haling as burst heals
Imortality or imortality for other than the caster which is always a tank, never a support.
Imortality + heal and cleanse in the same hero kit.
High mobility abilities for Heroes who have high Potency or concepts in their kit. I.e. Lucio should not be able to both Wallride, headshot, and speed boost.
Long Range + high mobility
Brawl + Long range
Long Range + Amor
High Damage and pick potential + burst heal and save potential + mobility.
Brawl + heal + armor + barrier + CC
CC + shortrange adv. (Imagine 2 OW1 McCrees with flashbangs first to Flash is first to lose, you get punished for having reaction time because you don't affect yourself at short range)
High damage + splash damage + boop potential + one or two shot potential.
CC + 1 shot potential + sustain abilities
Stealth + oneshot potential.
Stealth + cc
Stealth + Damage over time incl. deadmans trigger.
Role Passives.
Low Accuracy requirements and high damage outputs + headshot capability + cleanse and or self heal abilities.
CC + low accuracty + sustain + mobility and or cleanse capability.
CC + High low accuracy damage potential
Long range one shot capabilities + mobility + short range duelling capabilities. (Snipers shouldn't be able to do this)
Midange high value + no projectile damage fall off over distance.
Slowing CC effects. I'd much rather be fully stunned than slowed.
This is isn't a balance in terms of numbers issue its a versatility for value and agency issue.
That's so fuckin good as an argument. Like awesome argument dude. The design is the problem.
@pederslothzuricho7685 you typed all that out for a reply? and for what? its sad because such a compelling argument goes to waste in a youtube reply
@@jjt171 and you replied
@Dillman2001 never said your comment was bad. I was saying you put so much effort into such a well thought out argument that it will never go seen by many people because it's simply in a youtube comment reply
6v6 was a blast. Yes, it wasn’t perfect by any stretch, but the flexibility made it better.
I’ve never seen a meta form in plat and below, but here we are where if you play any other tank than Orisa and Zarya, you’re just throwing. Torbs and bastions EVERY game all the supports with so much healing nothing dies (coming from a support main). Thank you 5v5
@@TheLastEgg08 YUP. I was an OW1 plat tank main and don't play anymore because it's the most two-dimensional role in the game. Meta didn't apply to plat tanks in OW1 but now there's like 3 choices unless you're a one-trick who's basically a smurf.
Also, I was a Ball main... Now he's just a ball tickler. I'm not willing to grind out GM level mechanics to have any impact on my favorite hero.
@@ShanyeSoT I know you said you won't grind out GM level mechanics, but IMO ball and doom (but especially ball) have the most fun playstyles and if the lobby isn't too stacked against you or your team mates know dive heroes and are willing to play with you, they are still very playable. When I play the more depressing thing other than failing at pulling off your non meta hero pick is not the failing or losing part, but actually the toxic meta slave attitudes from team mates. But you can always just mute that.
If the devs used those 3 years making "OW2" to just balance the fucking game, there wouldn't be so many problems. 6v6 wasn't perfect, but they could have spent that time making the game better.
@@Real_Nutella a single sombra and you can't play ball
I spent 2k hours going from bronze to masters on tank in overwatch 1, it was by far my favorite game. I haven't played in months because of these issues. Well said Sam
Same here, altho I'm a dps at heart but I loved flexing to both support and tank, and got near masters on both. It was fun, enjoyable, full of skill expression and knowledge of map, resource rotation, ult combos, counter moves.. Now it's just who has the better supports backing you up, and you play the counterpick game. So braindead, I stopped playing tank entirely because of it. Overtuned support abilities and no room for flair on tank has killed OW2.
Same I went from Bronze to Diamond right below you and I'm in my mid 30's and OW1 playing as a team and strategy was so much more important and fun..I can't explain the dopamine boost and fun I would get to know not only I executed but I did working together with strangers from all across the world. It's just not the same feeling with OW2 and I find myself bored with either steam rolling the other team or me getting steam rolled, it's so rare it's a close fight.
@@blesstalksDude for real. The dopamine you got as a team collaborating and executing just felt so right in OW1. And the short bond you made with the players on your team you felt like really good friends for the match when you figured out how to overcome the other team. A lot of that is destroyed with ow2. They even kick you out of the match way earlier so you don't even have a chance to talk to your team when the match ends. It's feels so soulless.
@@nathancasey7712 I was getting win after win on support last night and I was just bored even with winning. It just doesn't feel team like it's I did all this stuff on my own to help carry. I miss 6v6
Had 4000 hours in 0W1 grinded to masters. I haven't bothered with OW2 except with friends. It's so much less enjoyable and rewarding even when I win.
It’s funny how in GOATS they used the broken heroes Brig and then there was even a Bap variant as he was so good he could replace her. Then, when 222 comes out- none of the tanks from GOATS (Rein, Zarya, Dva) were used and it went immediately to Orisa Sigma. But, we keep Brig… and Bap. We just put the two OP AOE support heals together to add even more sustain to the ranged poke tanks with sustain/CC abilities that allow them to outbrawl the brawl tanks. Then double shield was the same thing as GOATS, stacking defensive abilities to protect the OP AOE healers that were undivable when surrounded by that comp.
5v5 seems like it should be an arcade mode compared to how much more complex 6v6 was
Literally
exactly
love this
That’s how I felt since beta, it’s fun, but 6v6 was Overwatch
6V6 wasn't "more complex". It was less complex because the 2nd tank just limited a ton of options on both sides.
I do want to say Sam, thanks for keeping up the fight for 6v6 and voicing everything we want to say. Keep at It
Agreed
@@dwamnationn same
I can't believe people still cope about 5v5 "being better"
More like you have no sure arguments and need someone to craft it.....just how it sounds imo
@@MegaDuke4life I have arguments, I just don't have enough of a impact as Sam does because he is a streamer and I'm not, he is big enough where he can post this video and the devs can actually pay attention.
It wouldn't matter how many arguments I would get into on either Reddit, TH-cam or OW Forums my voice would never be heard.
That check came in for Freedo
Checks have been coming in since OW2 released, buddy doesnt even try to hide how big of a shill PoS he is
I love playing Rein. Rein was the character that got me in to Overwatch. I have a Rein tattoo. I have a Rein figure on my desk. I paid for a Rein Seoul skin in OW1.
In OW2, Rein is probably one of my least played tanks because it's just insanely unenjoyable due to counterwatch. Bring back 6v6. For justice, for honour.
Im in the same situation as you, but as a Zarya main. I racked up around 600hrs on Zarya in OW 1, but ever since OW2 release ive played less than 10 hours on her.
I was also a rein main who went to Dva or sig when needed or depending on map. Now if I play tank at all its pretty much just orisa zar. Super disappointing.
bringing back 6v6 wont necessarily make rein good and rein has also been good in ow1
@@killerlamas3532 Rein being “good” and “playable” are different things. We want playable
@@Boss24601exactly
I used to be a tank player, Rein main. For years i enjoyed playing the tank role, I was able to play my hero almost all the time. I wasn’t top500 but I was decent 3.75k peak, usually between 3.4k-3.6k.
Shortly after ow 2 came out i stopped playing tank because the pressure to perform is just too much. I have to counter swap at least 4 times per game and that is not fun.
Like you said there will always be someone better than you in the game and if the other tank is better the game is over for you.
One of freedo arguments about 5v5 is that overwatch feels more like a FPS game now and “you can easily transition to other games like apex” if i wanted to play other games i would have just done that, overwatch felt special to me. It felt different. Even through the content drought the game was still good, just needed content. It makes me sad the fact the game i onced loved is probably never coming back to the state it was.
YES ! WHAT A SHIT ARGUMENT. WHAT DOES BEING ABLE TO PLAY OTHER FPS HAVE TO DO WITH THE GAME BEING GOOD ???? LIKE WHAT IS THAT
You only have to counter swap because you aren't good enough to make your pick work. Even Hog mains with his non OW2 version still aren't falling out of GM using him.
@@ReaveIdono being extremely good at 1 hero it’s called a 1 trick, of course they’re people that are really good at even the worst tank and never swap. But those same people also don’t swap when being hard countered and ruin the experience for their team.
@@Frankillz If they are winning the majority of their games. Then how exactly are they ruining their teammates games?
This is the issue with the community as a whole. Focus on generating your own value and stop worrying about your teammates. They'll either find ways to generate their value or they won't.
let’s agree to disagree. Im not going to argue with some stranger on the internet, and lets agree that we both like this game and just want it to be the best it can possibly be. Whether is 5v5 or 6v6 i just want the game i love to succeed.
It greatly upsets me that we will never go back to 6v6. Not because the dev team truly thinks 5v5 is better, but because going back to 6v6 would be a PR nightmare
Also due to the fact that blizzard no longer cares about making overwatch the best game it can be. They want it to be as entry level as possible, to as many people as possible, to sell 20 dollar skins.
Blizzard is driven primarily by a horrible mix of embarrassment and pride these days. Really sad to see play out for this long
It really sucks to see what happened to it
They use to really strive to make a great game, but now they could hardly be bothered to do anything other than sell skins and make worse and worse choices
I think they've had worse PR honestly. It'd be miniscule negative PR compared to some things they've been through.
No, because it's really bad and you all falling to the rosy retrospection bias.
IMO.
40:29 "Somehow Genji got nerfed before all this." This one sentence summed up my experience as a Genji player through all of OW1 and OW2
Blizzard is so offended at the fact that 6vs6 is objectively better, that they wont even add 6vs6 as an arcade playlist.
If the Executive Producer calls 6v6 "Nostalgia" on twitter then i dont know what they are thinking.
I mean, i dont have brain damage, i remember 6v6 very well, its only been a year.
Me personally, I even played more 6v6 while the 5v5 beta was up, as a tank player i never liked it.
But hey, Blizzard will only realise in like 1 - 2 years and then create Overwatch classic, because it will be too late for OW2
Why don’t you put 6v6 instead of 6vs6 😆
@@heiko2255I just posted this comment but i think it's very relevant to your comment as well.
For such a big OW youtuber (YourOverwatch) to make such a provocative video and title is suspicious to me. Makes me think the OW devs want to bring back 6v6 but don't want to be seen as incompetent so they make the community beg for 6v6 again by bringing the conversation into the spotlight through their paid influencers(YourOverwatch) to make these videos. I think the devs know 6v6 was better but can't change it back because that was a big reason for the "2" in OW2. So they want to swoop in like heroes (instead of like backtracking incompetents) and "save the game", hoping nobody remembers it was their greed that caused this problem in the first place. They want to say "Oh well, this is what the community wants, guess we have to change it back," and not be blamed for causing it. It's all PR.
Of course, this is all speculation but I won't be surprised if that's how it'll play out. It will be a slow process and the OW devs will act reluctant at first but eventually 6v6 will be back, because if it's not, the game will die quicker than if it didn't.
This isn't true. Putting 6v6 back in isn't just pushing a button. It'd take a significant amount of resources from several departments. They have numbers saying that the return on investment wouldn't be worth the resources.
@@acollegestudent At this point i dont even care anymore.
Blizzard has gone to so many controversies, drama, allegations etc. i dont care anymore.
I just want to play good Overwatch (6v6) and i just want to grind Ranked (SR).
Bro I've been waiting 6 years for someone with a big voice in the community to go down the AOE healing rabbit hole. Finally!
Honestly I used to not be a big Samito fan. I didn't dislike him but I felt he was sorta confrontational and/or whiny at times but I realize now why he was so confrontational. It was to try to avoid things like 5v5.
I've pretty much done a complete 180 since knowing he was arguing for 5v5 (go figure when I agree with someone I like them more) because he's really good at putting arguments into words that I wouldn't be able to think of. I was also playing Mineplex when there was 150 players at peak hours so him reviving my favorite server also gave him a big up in my books LOL.
I doubt you'll see this Sam but if you do, from semi-disliker (not hater) to fan, I'm proud of you :) Keep fighting the good fights ❤
W
and they say chivalery is dead.
co-signed
Relatable
@@babousk7593 Blizzard Killed it I swear
“Somehow Genji got nerfed through all of this”
I feel like you could say that line in any situation 😂
They kept nerfing him to the point he is actually kind of a throw pick unless you are ranks better than the game.
Never agreed more with your point about counterpicking. I like to play Winston. I’m just okay at the game. I don’t like Orisa. If they counterswap me, I hate having to switch to a play style I find boring. Sometimes it’s after one fight. I could counterswap them, but then it’s just a cycle and we have to eventually swap to the meta tank to bypass the issues. Very grating. No strategy. Enforces the meta even more in a boring way. And I find it kind of insulting that we have this bad balance philosophy right now and some arguments are just about balancing the game better. Come on.
The only monke orisa counter play is evading her afaik. Lame af
Yeah, that’s the lamest part. You can’t be aggressive anymore unless you have full coordination. And you never do so you have to play this slow, attritional game while also avoiding the Orisa.
Yep in 6v6 you could be countered on monkey too but having that synergy with a Zarya or a dva could help you still be successful playing monkey against your counters in a lot of scenarios. Now there's no recourse. Monkey has no way to protect himself against cc or burst damage really.
Yeah, exactly. You could get away with hitting the backline too and playing more flanky. Now supports can just out-heal you or TP/Fade/boop you away.
Winston works in OWL because they have full coordination. When you don’t, and especially when your team doesn’t understand dive (and they especially don’t), he’s really exploitable. Very frustrating.
ah yes. winston. my go to pick in overwatch 1, when the snipers got too oppressive. It was not even remotely surprising that snipers became a problem in overwatch 2. you just don't have the second tank that can focus them anymore.
The only 5v5 argument that holds any weight is less visual clutter, but Blizzard is already trying their hardest to get rid of that too with all these deployables.
just played a game against symmetra lifeweaver ramattra and they all ulted at the same time so i'd say we're very close to that LMAO
Yestoday i saw a forest pop up on cart and platforms rose above it, couldn't see shit and it looked so silly.
Next they're gonna switch to 4v4 and remove all abilities that even come close to causing clutter only to bring them all back a year later + add even more and make it even worse to the point where it's literally visually unplayable.
I've been saying this for so long. Hog, Zar, Dva, and Ball were never meant to solo tank.
Whats wrong with it tho? All are top meta picks except for hog
@@ardelius0198 They play like glorified giga-dps instead of their old playstyles in OW1. Nothing wrong with it per se. like everything else, it's down to preference.
@@J.R.Swish1 thats true but it just makes the game more diverse, also a giga dps is useful in contesting the objective, only having dps and supports would make objectives less meaningful
@@ardelius0198uh zar yes but ball and hog definitely aren't there very niche, easy to counter and even pro balls are saying how bad hes getting which is true
yes because they were off tanks (except for ball he just wasn't meant for this). Idk why they did this.
I feel like the people who defend 5v5 to death never had a tank friend to duo tank with to see why 6v6 was so great 😭
so great that no one wanted to play it. In OW1 you got >30 seconds queue times compared to the
@@josewolf9884No one liked this comment 😹
@@jaimenunez777 I don't post to get validation tho
@josewolf9884 how long have you had the game ?
Seems like you're new here if you don't know why que times were so low at the tail end of ow1. Game was designed for 6v6 and it shows ,unless you're in bronze half the tank roster is unplayable anywhere above masters. But I guess losing complexity is worth it to make the game easier for free to play shitters
@@usucculentcow2988 "you must be new" "you must be bronze" "you must be a f2p shitter". Are you done with ad hominem assumptions? Or insulting is the only way samito has taught you how to begin an argument?
And no, I've been playing since late 2018 so I've seen enough of this game. I'm not even making assumptions here, you can check old posts and community discussions about how the average queue times was and how it took them 3 years after echo's release to reach a more or less balanced state, yet again no one wanted to play tank due to how badly they had to eat Crowd Control and how little rewarding it felt. Adding another tank is just not only adding another layer of thick hp for the healingcreep to feast on, but also adding more CC to a game, just what doomed the game on the first place.
Also, imagine saying that having to make "team-based" decisions and choices in a TEAM-BASED GAME is somehow *not* what you want to be priority in character selection....in a TEAM-BASED GAME.
Thats because even in a team based setting humans are typically selfish. Ever play an mmorpg that needs supports and wonder why you can never find one?
@@aerostrafe1075YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER, you reply alot for being completely wrong and dont even read the paragraphs sent to you on why you are wrong piss off somewhere i bet you dont even play the game and if you do you are either silver or quickplay only your opinion DOES NOT matter.
@@aerostrafe1075 but in ow 1 I found it not difficult at all to get my 2nd tank to either play main tank or off tank while I played the other
@@onepieceofbbq6357 Mainly just pointing out how some people tend to just play for themselves in team based games. I remember before role que how rough it was getting anything going at character select.
Right? Like let's make it 1v1 at this point!?
Since you get so much control over exactly who's going to win the game! Surely that's a good idea right!?
Wow! I came into this thinking I would disagree because of how much I hated double shield, but you’ve actually changed my mind. Great video.
the shield in double shield or goats is the least of the problems vs the sustain skills on said poke tanks and aoe healing + the cc powercreep.
There's no double shield anymore.
@@ghoulbuster1 can you read LMAO OP is talking about 6v6
Double shield was a support problem. Double shield in theory should've been countered by dive, but the overtuned supports were essentially undivable
6v6>5v5 supp were broken and they still are. tanking alone is the shittiest thing ever so much pressure and so many limit.
Yep and the community is too quick to forgive and forget. Remember how much people hated Lamp in the beginning? How paradoxid it seemed for the game, how nobody liked it? People stopped complaining and started accepting - and that showed Blizzard exactly one thing: They can force their will and ruin the game, and the playerbase will end up accepting eventually and just pretend things are ok as a way to cope. Now that people stopped complaining about Lamp, what did we get? We got Suzu, an even WORSE ability. And then what? Life Grip! Shit just keeps piling up because the playerbase is teaching Blizzard that they can do no wrong.
Lets go back to the time where tanks had options, supports weren't glorified dps, having a front line meant something, and complaining about Lamp was a sensible state of mind of the average player. This is not rose tint. This is simple observational fact.
Feel like tanks and supports cause one another issues in such an odd way. If the tanks are having lots of fun then normally supports are bored. If supports are too strong then tanks have to suffer.
@@aerostrafe1075This is exactly correct. Supports’ entire job is to keep their team alive, and Tanks and DPS want to control space/sightlines and kill people. Their goals are literally opposite, they can’t both be happy at the same time lol
For what it's worth, I think counter swapping was more difficult in Overwatch 1 because there was a higher chance someone on the enemy team countered you. And it was harder to counter swap to single out one guy because there are more people who might get in the way of your plan. Imo 6v6 just had more options everywhere.
I’d love to see Sam and Freedo do a one on one discussion on this.
I think this would end kind of weird, if Freedo doesnt see he is arguing against himself it would end with both of them just screaming at each other lol.
Freedo is just a shill. No point having him on any objective discussion. This video proves it
@@heiko2255that’s how debates/discussions go when there are very opposing views 😅
@@heiko2255 It can be done easily in a constructive way. Look at the State of Overwatch video, where Seagull and Surefour had drastically different views on the game, but they were able to have a constructive discussion
It'd be hard to set up actual arguments when both make the same points but Freedo reaches divergent conclusions that are centered in bias rather than understanding. If Freedo's points were actually different, there would be more grounds for arguments in a debate - but this way it'll just be one person trying to convince the other that they got the math wrong.
Fun fact, the supports enabled the double shield meta. Double shield would not be an issue if the supports were still Lucio, mercy and zen
So just have no support diversity and go back to 6v6
What a brain-dead take 😂
Or bcuz they added orisa and sigma dum dum , everybody loves to blame support 😭🤣
@@niggachu420 huh? No one ran double shield before brig what are u talking about
@@niggachu420 double shield was carried by brig and bap because even if u broker their shields those 2 supports healed so well it didn't even matter that much
queen point is insane bc theres no way someone designed junker queen and decided shes a much better main tank than potential off tank
she was definitely designed when 6v6 was in mind
Also the maps, like New Queen Street. Tf you gonna do against a Widow and Hanzo spamming you from narnia across the map with absurd sight lines? Or so many open spaces for Soldier to just run around uncontested with free value lasering you down from whatever angle he desires? Imagine if you had an off tank who could help control that vast space and not just let people get value for free.. Seems like everything was made for 6v6 and the whole drop-a-tank was an afterthought cooked up by the marketing team or some shit.
@@Real_MisterSir facts bro
@@Real_MisterSir from "narnia" had me dying lol🤣🤣
🤣@@L0neW0lfMindset-escap3
I actually found Sigma very fun, he’s my favorite tank. That being said, as one of the very few remaining tank mains, 6v6 is objectively better, I miss it :(
Sigma is also one of the few tanks that is consistently viable in 5v5 due to his diversity and stacked ability set. He is indeed very fun tho
Sig legit does everything so he is the perfect tank for 5v5
I can't believe people actually defend 5v5 when it was made as a cheap excuse to solve the easily avoidable problem of the double shield meta. I tried dismantling some stuff under that comment section too but people just can't wrap their heads around blizz making a worse game than the original which is wild because thats what they have been doing for a while now. I feel like Samito is the only one that actually knows what he is talking about anymore and is better for it because he isn't playing OW2 as much.
We never got to see the Orisa rework in OW1. I think a toned down version of that would have been fantastic in 6v6. The fix for 6v6 was right there. Now we have an overwatch where ball and hog would prob be better off in the dps category simply because they can't keep up with these jack of all trades tanks we're getting.
@@RaccoonBrigadeas a pretty average player who’s stayed around diamond low masters and high plat depending on the role I prefer 5v5 just because I feel like I have much more individual impact whether I’m playing tank or support or tank I feel like I can carry much more
Said tank twice but yk what I mean
@@RaccoonBrigadeRam/Zarya would honestly destroy double barrier if double barrier was still a thing.
I think we woulda seen Ram/Zarya/Reaper/Mei/Lucio/Ana or Bap or Kiriko. And they woulda been able to do nothing because Sigma wouldn't be able to cycle his CDs the way he could've in OW1 due to Ram forcing himself in their faces.
Even JQ/Zarya duo woulda done well vs double barrier.
@@mattc6015 There are countless games where you personally can go make an impact. Go do it. Overwatch was never that. Brutalizing a beloved team based shooter in this way has been disgusting. You want maximum impact? Go play a 1v1. What you are doing is saying "I wish LoL would just remove a player so that I can have more impact". At that point why not just keep doing that untill EVERY GAME is a 1v1 and everyone can have maximum impact. There is a reason there are a variety of games. Taking the one game that was a team focused shooter and turning into generic fps trash heap 284 is not good. There are 283 other trash heaps. Go pig out in one of those.
I wasn't a big fan of Samito at the beginning but after experiencing much of a hell tank season, I wanted to find videos or someone within the community who shared the same frustrations; other than players and a couple of streamers who say "tank is not fun atm" . Most of the them just blow it off or just "accept" that 5v5 is the new normal, again frustrated they just accept the game as it is until I stumbled across Samito's video, he was the outlier. He IS the ONLY content creator who actually made the effort to explain why 6v6 was better for the game compared to 5v5 and for that. Samito has my biggest respect, for continuing to voice our opinions over and over again makes me look forward for a day when the ow devs will realize how important 6v6 was the fundamental aspect of OW and it is what made the game so great in the beginning, to instill it in future seasons.
absolutely
Frankly I don't understand how anyone could think the game would be better 5v5 - the core group of heroes were designed for like a decade in a 6v6 environment, with 6 heroes on each team. Losing a hero on each team - especially with role restriction now - means that the original group of heroes and how they were carefully balanced at the origination point of the game, all of the factors and fine tuning that went into their kits before OW was a thing, it's just all out the window now. You don't plan on building a house and buy a plan for a 6 bedroom and then build a 5 bedroom house instead. People really don't understand how planning and development of products that interact with each other (like hero kits in this game) function if they think you can change a massive component like 'quantity' and it'll have minimal to no impact. That's just not how things work in anything where the numbers are important; bridges, game balance, car engines, you name it - there's a reason that stuff is measured and weighed and not just eyeballed!
Pretty much this. 5v5 eventually may reach where 6v6 was at but at its core the game was designed and balanced around 6v6 for the longest time.
Its also the reason why people get steamrolled on
they were planned for 6v6 but not for 2-2-2. Most early ow teamcomps you would see around before brig were basically 1-4-1 or 1-3-2, rarely 2 tanks since they were fewer and dps was more enjoyable overall.
Also lol, "carefully balanced" is a huge overstatement, specially for this game, as it has always been poorly managed to this day.
I used to quick play with my friends for fun. We don't play anymore (quick play sucks hard these days) but, I watch these out of some level of...curiosity I guess. I love your level of passion man truly. Nobody gets that loud at friends without a reason to care and sir, I really respect how much you do.
i love going to some of my fav youtubers and scroll to the bottom and watch there videos
QP sucks because of MMR. You get punished for performing well.
I swear Samito has a higher IQ than any other content creator talking about this 5v5 vs 6v6 debate. I've actually really come to appreciate Samito. He has a really well thought out and nuanced opinion that only comes from having a brain, real experience, imagination and the patience to really chew on an idea until you can refine it down to it's core concepts. This was a great video!
Except maybe Flats.
Freedo is not very smart tbf
@@joshuacollins9316flats is one of the dumbest, he thinks he’s always right when his takes are abysmal quite often
hes been playing in low masters for like 20 seasons his perspective is a bit off@@duarteb
To be fair, Freedo's IQ is below 0, so it's not hard.
Samito, please send your video to the Overwatch team! Great common sense arguments! I agree with you 6v6 is 100 percent better than 5v5. Imagine how much more fun OW2 would be going back to 2, 2, 2, format.
You did a very good job explaining hard countering clearly
I think the design of two tanks, having those two anchors, makes the game feel more like a team game, especially for the tank role. For the entire team, but especially tank, it creates a natural tendency to turn around more often towards the other anchor point, and naturally, by its very design, encourages more of a team-sense among the players. In OW2, tank feels a lot lonelier, with so much going on behind you that you can't frequently participate in visually.
5v5 is more team-based. Now it's not just encumbant upon the tank to take space. You all need to push up and tank space.
5v5 is more team-based. Now it's not just encumbant upon the tank to take space. You all need to push up and take space.
@@ReaveIdono"Theoretically".. Reality wise tho, it ended up with tank contesting while the other 4 being a deathmatch wild west..
@@crustypaff452 Ummm so the other roles go up and take space by landing their abilities. Landing their abilities will result in death of the enemy team... This is what's supposed to happen in a shooting game.
@@crustypaff452I interpret what you’re saying is that there’s a lack of communication. If the tank is 1v4 the enemy team. Their tank is doing the same thing. That means you’re both trading resources to gain control over space. But someone should go in with the tank anyway.
Lack of communication happened in overwatch as well
It is hilarious but also encouraging that Sam's move into the development space of gaming, has expanded both his understanding of and commitment to speaking up for "Average/Casual" markets and their experiences. This video does a lot to break down the design choices the Devs have made over the years, both from the "can't be helped" directions of the new team, as well as the drastic turns of the OW1 team and their vision for the game.
To clarify one point about the Casual market? The broad levels of play (Low Rank, Casual, Average, New Players, Inexperienced players, etc.) do not operate on skill based play, they operate based out of lack of knowledge. Most players aren't going to look for every niche detail and specific about every hero in the game, nevermind the constantly shifting patch notes, and this 'ignorance' is what most are operating inside of when they play. It isn't that Tank Synergies, Strategies, Gameplay and the like "Don't matter"? It's that they are fundamental concepts embedded in the game for every player to explore and ENJOY finding, at whatever pace they like (even if they never do, it should always be there to be discovered).
Discovering new, relevant, impressive ways, at a personal level, to play the game is a part of the Joy of the game.
5v5 does not understand that and actively pursues an aggressive stance in it's design that states "Press this button and you'll be awesome", which might be good for profit and short term business gains? But is absolutely atrocious for any sort of design or player retention.
Tanks used to be the ones that complained the most about 2CP, with the reason being that they needed to play perfectly to stand a chance of winning. Now every game feels like it's 2CP and you have to play perfectly as the tank otherwise you stand no chance at all.
Imagine if we went back to 6v6. The 2 in OW2 would be hilariously unjustified. No PvE and back to 6v6 XD
Why else do you think they won't switch to 6vs6, they know they'll get flamed for it as they deserve
@@Glizzymanexactly they dug their own hole. Now accept it and apologize. We the real players will accept the apology of course you will have haters who cares. Atleast the game survives the next 3 years instead of becoming a completely dead project. Be humble admit you were wrong, we know it was all about money, we arent stupid. We dont care anymore we just want a playable game and no more false promises. Not much to ask for.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin I'm ngl I though you were saying for me to apologize but I reread it to make sure
But yes someone said it, they came out with pve and were truthful and while obviously we were and still are shitting on them for it it's better now then before, they need to suck it up and come out with 6vs6 atleast for arcade or preferably qp so everyone isn't running bullshit stuff and boom, we can see which one is truly better or at the very least we have 6vs6 here for fun and some good content like I wanna see flat and emong run it back with double tank
5 v5 Does Not Make it Justified Either, Still the Same game with an Update
It's just people are easy to fool by putting the Number in front of the title, OW 2 Should mean pve Exclusively
5v5 helped with the Facade as well
However, not going back to 6v6 (or 7v7 2-3-2) is probably the pile-driver on a dead game
counter picking refered to as strategy is like comparing the differently shaped toy blocks to be put in differently shaped holes for toddlers to driving a car
Crazy to me how their are even 5v5 defenders
Cause it's the new thing, people usually have the need to defend it.
@knox7945 they must have not played 6v6 then😬 or were dog at it🤭
Dafran defends 5v5 because he didn't like the shield meta.
This is a huge video.
I feel like you addressed the nuance that was lost in the 6v6 discussion on the Group Up Podcast.
They love to call people like us boomers for wanting 6v6 in a dismissive way but I think it's false hope to think Tank players will ever enjoy being the solo bullet sponge for the team.
As a support main who’s been playing Overwatch since 2018, I can confirm that there were way more tank players in OW1 and way fewer support players, while it is the exact opposite in OW2. In OW1, 50% of my friends list was tank players. Now, 50% are support lol. Nobody wants to play tank because it’s miserable, myself included.
I just never wanted to be frontline. I was fine as backup tank since I could stay back a bit and see the team. But I definitely won't play OW tank now that I'll always be forced to be up front, which is the lonliest place in OW since all DPS want to run their own way to "help carry them out of silver/gold".
As a tracer player having landed some really skillful and sick pulse bombs in OW2 just seeing them get cleansed by Kiriko was really disheartening and that above all else is probably what made me quit the most.
not baiting enough XD
true i was a tracer otp and hovered around 3900-4100 and i dont play tracer at all right now. It is too difficult to take 1v1s in this game and when you play it right snd kiriko suzus I just give up. I play Sojourn and Echo now.
skillful would mean you baited out or waited for suzu to be used first. skill issue
@@BeckieAmIRiteyou realize a kiriko can hold Suzu indefinitely, or exploit her ult to get it again faster, or bro anything else could happen to stop the pulse. It isn't skill issue he didn't get pulse to kill, it's the fact it's a terrible ultimate that needs desperate buffs
@arbalest327 a guaranteed kill on an ult isn't a bad design. It's the immortalities off a regular ability that are so prevalent that makes it feel bad. And those abilities affect a lot more than tracer. I.E. queen's carnage.
The one thing Frito is forgetting about is this: people do not want to swap. They want to play the hero they like and want to play. It is not better to force people to have to swap. I'm sure Frito and some others like the interaction of being forced to counter pick and such but the majority of players just want to play the hero they like and have fun. Simple as that. People don't want to be forced to swap off the hero they like.
Just don't swap. You're not trying to get in overwatch league, who cares if you're 3 ranks below what you could get? If like rein, just rein do or die.
@@lukasg4807it’s not the ranks. It’s that first of all. The act of losing itself is an immediate downside. Secondly and more importantly how you lose; you,basically get shat on all game and don’t even get to play how you wanted to play. SO WHY PLAY. If I lose a close game where everyone shone then it’s all good. If I lose a game for playing rein and I didn’t get 20 swings in and my shatter got suzu’d how the fuck am I going to enjoy myself
@@t_dappa Just get better at Rein. It's not fun playing someone meta at a middling ability, it's far more fun playing who you want to as well as you can. Every tank is perfectly viable, you just have to figure out how to play them into bad matchups.
@@lukasg4807 the problem is that you’re merely providing a way to derive fun in spite of a faulty game design philosophy. Yes this is how most people play the game believe it or not your idea isn’t brand new. Anyone who still plays overwatch 2 and doesn’t play meta characters knows that they are playing the game to be challenged. But this doesn’t directly address my point which posits that this is not the solution to the problem but rather that the game itself should reward skill expression and characters who have the potential to bring forth skill expression over those that provide a baseline easier value. No genji and tracer should not be broken heroes but they should also not have to lose to kiriko and baptiste simply because these supports are designed to have no downsides.
@@t_dappa yeah, some heroes get too much value just for existing, but my point was just you're not forced to swap. Maybe a torb turret and spamming down a choke is optimal in the situation, but I'm also trying to play an FPS not balloons tower defence.
my main issue with 5v5 tank is alot of times it feels i have to be the best player on my team and be everywhere where as before u could split up responsibilities
You sir have said it best, thank you for looking out for this community and actually understanding why 5v5 is such a miserable experience
Would love to have your thoughts on this Sam. A theory I have is that the support passive is playing a MAJOR role in why nothing dies and the reason supports seem to always have an ability available..ITS BECAUSE THE SUPPORT PASSIVE ALLOWS SUPPORTS TO HOLD ON TO VALUABLE GAME WINNING RESOURCES. Stay with me. Say you’re running ana mercy and the ana gets shot and is left at 80hp,mercy is busy pocketing the dying genji,what are you gonna do as ana most of the time if you aren’t by a health pack? SELF NADE. The problem with overwatch 2 are these supports are able to hold on to these OP abilities because they can just wait 2 seconds and boom all good. The support passive isn’t a problem in duels but a major problem in the NEUTRAL FIGHT because they can stack resources up until the actual fight. A second tank would also force supports to use more cool downs but you take away that AND combine the support passive,it becomes a nightmare of a game.
WELL SAID BRO with one less tank supports have more time and resources to spend on bullying dps and tank I've been saying for so long and im glad other ppl are noticing, the best way to balance is to just take away role passives (or change them drastically) or BRING BACK OUR SECOND TANK
It's actually insane to see how badly Freedo, who mostly has a pretty good grasp on the game, misses the ball here. Just bad or flat out wrong takes left and right.
For the last year or so he has missed the mark a LOT on things. He was a blizzard apologist and defendant when things were done objectively terribly, and he gripes on other creators using bad faithed gas-lighting arguments like "they must of not understood me" or "they are too far on their ivory tower" type stuff. Before then he often just agreed with other takes without giving much information on his own, so maybe now he is trying to be a contrarian but he is too unknowledgeable about the game to do this correctly, either.
Dude been out of touch for years. Fighting for a draft system like that will be the death of the game
His video also has more dislikes than likes too lol
Ever since OW2 beta, I am having an increasing suspicion that Freedo is being paid by Blizzard to release these takes about the game. He's such a blatant Blizzard apologist these days, it hurts.
I hate to give any credit to that thought process because it's an easy way to dismiss anything that is optimistic, but try as I may I can't get my head around it sometimes without going to that level. Like, I remember when PVE got cancelled, he spun it as an entirely positive thing versus a silver lining. It did feel like it was damage control for OW. And, I get that it means more assets go to PVP, and that's good, but to switch on a dime when everyone was anticipating something WAY different is just weird. @@SicariusKun
My experience with playing tank role in ow2:
>play as a tank you want
>win 1 fight
>enemy tank and dps comes back as your hard counter
>now you have a choice: swap to a character you don't wanna play or get rolled
i've quit playing tank role then and there.
This, and its always the damn horse.
@@nxiss thats why i always swap reaper to pump horse with my buckshot so she doesn't ruin my tanks experience.
Hey, I don’t think I’m alone when I ask you if we can get more videos like this? More long formed contacts with you speaking your opinion a lot of us agree with exactly what you’re saying and we want to get the word out there we want to hear somebody articulate our thoughts better than we can Thanks for such a long video.
THANK YOU!!
Nothing worse than seeing one-sided videos in favor of "the Pros" experiences vs the "average Joe's". The professional player that seems to go to continuous boot camps to play Overwatch at its professional competitive level for money with a team that's going to cooperate 100% is going to be the determining factor of how my non-pro gameplay experience is to be and making the average Joe's gaming experience a lot worse.
I don't see why there can't be a compromise here. Give the "boomers" what they want. Set up one of the modes to be 6v6. Or, is it too much of a risk to do because the mode may actually be more popular than the current 5v5 state of the game.
I always try to explain to people my reasoning for liking 6v6 way more, but I can never put it into words, now I can just send them this video along with your other ones on similar topics. Thanks Sam, you're the best!
I guess sending the video is at least better than trying to regurgitate someone else’s opinions as if they were your own thoughts
YES!!!!!! THANK YOU! Omg I am glad someone's saying it! 5v5 is such a disaster for me. I do NOT want to play tank anymore because of these changes.
I miss being able to have comps to goof around with in qp and comps to sweat on in comp. Now they're all just one in the same because there isn't really enough possibilities.
Frfr preach
yea seriously coming from a tank player literally every single tank except for sigma and wrecking ball and winston sometimes is just brawl. I love brawl but why does it have to be the only thing that's played? Especially on this new flashpoint gamemode, in which nobody is ever gonna run anything but brawl on.
You guys act like 6v6 wouldn't have been bland with the same issue
Rose tinted glasses or what.
@@shogun0810 We got rid of over 1000 possible comps just to get rid of one tank. That isn't rose tinted glasses, that's content I paid for that was stolen from me.
I so, so, SO badly wish I could have played Junker Queen in overwatch 1, I absolutely adore her design and playstyle, but in 5v5 I'm forced to play main tank instead of off tank and it's as if she either has to be broken or she gets absolutely rolled.
It's so obvious that she's an off-tank too. Really sad that she was released in this shit game.
This is a new side of samito for me, I don't really watch his content much, as I've only really seen clips of rage and toxicity, but this was a really refreshing and interesting video. Good work.
Keep it up! Dont stop fighting for 6v6! Overwatch was designed for 6v6! And there would be more tank players if we had more tanks from the start of the game release and more variety in playstyle designs
This is so true. People say 5v5 was necessary because there were so many people queuing for dps. You know what there was also so much of? DPS characters to play. Give us more new tanks in ow1 and see the player count go up.
5v5: i go rock, you go paper; i go scissors, you go rock
6v6: i go rock and scissors, you can go paper and rock, but better scissors know to cut paper and better rock just win.
So basically 6v6 is about playing good and 5v5 is about swap fast in spawn, I think we can all see what has a higher skill ceiling. Plus play to swap is anti-fun, play to improve is fun.
I love how most of this guys arguments are just " 6v6 is better, but I'm gonna cope and say 5v5 is better" keep it up samito, if we get lucky maybe the small indie company will return 6v6 to us.
In ow1 I loved playing offtank dva sig and zarya all felt amazing it felt so insanely good to peel for my backline and peel for my other tank and really feel like I was working with someone to make space. Tank in ow2 feels lonely, it feels like I’m not really helping anyone but am requiring help constantly. Not to mention that these traditional offtank just feel weird overall? Like my play style of playing on a slight off angle from my main tank and diverting attention as a form of peel for my maintank gone now with the lack of a second tank and since I have to be a frontline and but idk
"balls been pretty good" ~Samito
Jeff's vision for Overwatch was the correct one. The only reason we're not in a golden age is because of corporate interests. 5v5 never would have been a thing, the game wouldn't be a greed hellscape, and we'd be playing a kickass PVE mode with all our casual friends.
Tank is absolutely miserable from a casual standpoint. If I'm hopping on to grind comp with friends, tank is the last thing I want to do. 5v5 has never really felt like it captured what Overwatch is supposed to be. I'd rather just not play than play tank in 5v5.
i may be like just an average simpleton but i played overwatch 1 from beta until the end and i never had a problem with double shield. tank synergies were so fun to play with and against. i feel like 5v5 defenders only defend it because it’s not 6v6. if they went to 4v4 they would also probably be a fan of that
My Overwatch 2 game ended with the enemies healers get over 30k healing combined. We almost couldn't ever win a fight because they were more optimized in their healing
watched the debate and wanted to say you killed it and i thought had the best/most consistent and logical arguments. you rock, keep fighting the good fight.
samito cooked so hard and he was so right here all the way through
Freedo's trying to land himself a job at Activision Blizzard with how tone deaf he is. 😂
Damn (45:36) “playing tank at the average tier of play and playing tank at the top tiers of play the gap is much shallower”. I would never have thought to hear this coming from freedo. Who wants to play a role we’re the bronze player and the master players skill is the same or closer to each other. I remember hearing this man say that a bigger skill gap for a competitive game the better.
Props to you for caring about competitive and casual players. Most people seem to give more value to one or the other.
Also I can vouch for your takes on tank experience. I used to be a dive tank player, I only played tank. I stopped, I had to. It was simply such an unfun experience. Even when I WIN on tank, it STILL SUCKS. If you go play an Overwatch 1 emulator in customs, the tank experience feels SO much better.
Also, I really hate the "queue time" argument. So, we're just supposed to make the game less fun, because of a problem which is caused by a role not being very fun? I don't get that logic. Just make the game fun and players play. Not complicated.
As you were talking around 25:45 about the super tanks being less interactable - spot on.
In ow1, as a reaper/sym/soldier/torb, almost every dps and some supports, a character like dva was fodder in a 1v1 in metal because her damage was low. If she was midrange on her own, she lost.
Now, she would get me with her tuning up, or simply be bailed by a kiriko tp and cleanse, buffed mercies, or lifeweaver/illari appearing from nowhere.
When every support has immorts and stupid high movement, and often good damage now, playing dps is unsatisfying. The only good matchups are dps vs dps, because supports can bail themselves out in most situations, they can bail out tanks (which are unkillable until they are alone and their supports are dead) so the only killable people are other DPS without pockets.
The funniest shit is when I pick a tank like Rein or Orisa and my supports pick Mercy and Zen. Then my supports keep blaming me because I keep dying. I then tell them politely to pick at least one support hero that can keep a tank alive and they're like "it's not a support problem, it's just a tank diff". I play in low GM btw. I have no idea how these people have made it to GM. I'm convinced support is the most braindead role and support players are the most braindead players in the game. And I'm never even toxic towards them in-game.
Mic drop so big it made a crater. Thank you, Sam.
I was a Tank main from day 1 beta Overwatch. The most fun part of the game for me was playing tank with one of my close friends during 6v6 and trying to become good enough to carry. Immediately with the announcement of Overwatch 2 going to 5v5 I knew I would never play again. All of the think pieces are great and valid points are being made for and against 5v5. I think there are a lot of tank players like me though who just never gave 5v5 a shot because regardless of whether or not it made up for the things we all thought were wrong with the Overwatch, we knew our experience would never be the same.
As soon as 5v5 was announced i knew this would happen.
A lot of people with critical thinking and game awareness did. A lot of us knew what made ow1 popular.
The whole issue with why people got pissy over double tank in my opinion was the double barrier shit. which they basically demolished ( before ramattra ) when they changed orisass kit. Also they have us playing 5v5 on maps that were originally intended for 6v6...
I gotta say, your analysis of the tank and support role are spot on. Nobody wants to play tank because it’s all counter-picking. The other day, I saw that damage queue times were about 3 times longer than the other roles, and I knew there was a big problem. Supports were never designed for a 5v5 environment, so they are way too strong, and tanks are forced into a rock paper scissor play style. I love the fundamentals of this game but man is their design ever flawed
Let's face it, 6v6 was how the game was intended to be played. 5v5 was only pushed through so they could have something different compared to ow1, the game would be too similar otherwise. They ruined the game.
The ''we did not have the players'' claim made me audibly go ''WHAT!''. Such an absurd argument. Overwatch at it's PEAK was one of the most popular games of that whole era. It was a phenomenon even when it wasn't F2P. I swear, Freedo loves the sound of his own voice so much that he constantly waltzes himself into making insane, logically inconsistent, bad faith arguments without ever realizing it. It's either that, or he knows it's all bs and doesn't care because ya boy has got to get paid.
If OW1 kept getting updates, content and balance patches, we'd never happen upon this 5v5 concept at all. They killed their own game, then pretended like the format was the issue. Abandoning the game in a terrible state did it. OW2 devs have always had serious problems with identifying the underlying issues with their games balance which is precisely why people constantly ask themselves: ''Do they even play their own game?''.
I find it so crazy that people bring up tank synergies like support synergies are any better. Try to fight an Ana brig, Lucio kiriko, bap zen. Support synergies are so oppressive especially on tank.
As a Zen main, discord the tank, they die, we win. Easy peasy as long as I get peel of some kind.
First I was a dps main in Overwatch 1, then switched to tank main. After Overwatch 2 release, I switched back to being a main dps.
I only play tank in open q, because you can easily have two tanks and rocking that synergy again.
I almost cried, when I picked Zarya and a team mate picked Rein instantly after.
52:38 Yeah, as a Bronze 1 player, when my tank doesn't feel like playing that game it's really frustrating because there is just nothing I can do to make up for their lack of performance. In 6v6 if one of the tanks decides he doesn't want to play, the other tank could at least go super hard and we might have a chance.
As a masters/gm tank (Now mid dia because I despise the ow2 ranked system), Tank was doing just fine in ow1, when there was only a couple situations in which I could be completely erased from a game that were outside of my own performance, but now with tank rock paper scissors, every support being able to outheal your dmg unless you dps try to work with you (they usually don't), and all of the hotpicks that can erase tanks from the game, like som/cass/ana every single time I try to play ball, who used to be my favorite tank in the game, but now feels like absolute shit to play because I just either do enough to deadlift the game, or I just get countered into oblivion, there is never any in between. There is no worse feeling than getting counterpicked just when you were doing so well on tank, and then the enemy tank just starts doing nothing but counterpicking, swapping their pick around you over and over and over, its what Someone on the Florida Mayhem abused to win the season, and I do not respect it in any way, and has ruined tank play for everyone no matter what rank.
I called this. They announced 5v5 and I feel like I was one of the few people who said "this won't be good, this is going to cause more issues than it solves"
"every support has an immortality" nope, two
I really hope the dev team sees this and gives it a thinker because youre 100% right on this.
Funny that Freedo made a long video saying that even with the rock paper scissors you can still play tank, but he didn't use any image of him playing tank, what makes me suggest that he is not playing tank that much
I tried play 5v5 for over a year, but as a tank player, game is a miserable experience and have quit the game now.
Its insane how I saw this coming as soon as they announced 5v5
Double tank friendships 💪🏻
emongg + flats :(
I hadn't played with another tank on my team since OW1, and recently went into an open queue match with another tank player. It's 1000% more fun to tank with 2 tanks, even with the nerfed tank stats in open queue.
Freedo loves anything blizzard does. Anything.
idk about that one LOL
For real
@@SamitoFPS ok ok ok ok not ANYTHING 😅
TL;DR
I stopped playing the game in season 1 after completing the BP.
I didn't enjoy my time in OW2 primarily because of the 5v5 change.
I kept my hopes up for Overwatch 2 to bring 6v6 back but the community post made by Aaron Keller on August 18, 2023; officially killed whatever hope I had left.
This paragraph in particular was the final nail in the coffin for me:
"If we can’t turn back the clock, then what can we do? We can keep adding to and improving Overwatch 2. That is how we move forward. This means more maps, heroes, game modes, missions, stories, events, cool cosmetics, and features - an ever-expanding, evolving, and improving game. This is the future of Overwatch. One where we will continually create and innovate on what is making the game great now for the players who are playing now."
First of all more maps, heroes, game modes, missions, stories, events, cool cosmetics, and features - an ever-expanding, evolving, and improving game; is literally OW1 business model only now it costs the playerbase more to have it.
Keeping the same strategy of OW1 for OW2 proves OW2 was nothing more than a glorified shop update.
nothing but the addition of new monetization methods to squeeze more money out of its players.
But that's not my issue, it is but that's corporate for you; it is this part: "making the game great now for the players who are playing now.".
Since I'm no longer playing the game now, because of this new direction the devs are headed in, whatever the devs do now won't be for me.
I want and will blame management for this but the devs are to blame as well.
I have no doubt Bobby K. and his management made the decision for free-to-play and overpriced skins and battle pass integration.
But I sincerely doubt Bobby K. plays the game to the point where he ordered the devs to make it 5v5.
That decision was left to the devs who were either to lazy or unskilled to surgically fix an issue in the game.
Instead of taking a scalpel and fixing the double shield issue, they took a bone-saw and cut a tank out because it's more efficient that way.
Saved them time and effort = lazy.
Not experimenting with fixes using the experimental mode OW1 had = unskilled.
If 6v6 was truly so unplayable as people claim, why did I enjoy it so much for 6 years since launch all the way up to OW2's launch?
I tried 5v5 for a little over a month and I couldn't be bothered anymore.
In the end it's all subjective really.
If you like 5v5, good for you, enjoy the game.
I just wish I wasn't alienated after supporting the game for 6 years through all the ups and down and nerfs and buffs and changes and reworks and even more so, the content drought.
Overwatch 1 didn't have to die for this.
But they have to hide the fact more people might be playing OW1 if it was still up, right?
BRING BACK 6v6
@@mortystraphouse5077 yesssss this
+1
Except you won't. You're all addicted and still enjoy
Cope.
@@shogun0810
Where else can you find a character that hits the enemy to heal their team? Where else can you find a character who has 3 dashes and a way to heal themself? Where else can you find a character who both protects their team AND ONE-SHOTS?
That’s why we are “addicted”
I bet you're all still playing. Pathetic.
there should have been a tank role, and a off tank role for 6v6
So it seems that the general takeaway is this: "5v5 is better, because now there's more counter potential for an individual player. The tank role has been pretty much shafted entirely to get to this point, so the other 4 players can do whatever they want now. But that's fine, because tank players make up the far minority of the playerbase anyways."
Yes support and dps feel a lot better to play now there aren’t two tanks dominating the match…some of the counters are annoying but I can actually play the game even when I’m losing. Overall much better experience for the average player.
Sam brings up the casual player when it benefits his point but other than that usually forgets we exist
@@mastergroob4843 I mean, the game 'feels' much better to play as DPS and Support because the game has gotten a lot easier for those roles. It sounds kind of bad but it's true. Overpowering a single tank is pretty easy even as a single DPS. Misstakes won't get punished nearly as much, and there is a lot more room for incredibly easy, no-skill value. The main thing is that 5v5 is absolutely miserable to play for the Tank, and queue times tell the same story as even with only a single Tank required to fill a match, queue times are still vastly longer for the other roles, like they were in 6v6. The game is out of your hands as a Tank player, and all you are there to do is to hold up a shield or to stand on point and eat as much damage and CC as you can before you inevitably die. Right now, the game wouldn't be much different if you had a 'veteran' difficulty bot on each team as a Tank.
@@dark_matter8420 couldn’t disagree more 🤷♂️ I have a lot of fun playing tank still
@@mastergroob4843 Then I deeply envy you, because for me (and it seems a lot of other tank players), the role has basically died. All the fun heroes aren't viable, and instead I'm forced to play Orisa and survive infinitely on point while my team gets to play the game. I mained Sigma and Ball to GM in season 2, but now I hardly play Tank at all anymore. It's incredibly boring, oppressive and just generally not fun. The role is incredibly one-dimensional and lost all nuance.
@@dark_matter8420 yeah I'm a little more casual, my highest role is masters support but I mess around in tank and dps and have fun. At higher ranks I can definitely see it being less enjoyable.
it’s crazy looking back on this video and seeing how wrong freedo was. everything he said either didn’t come true or was 10x worse than what he made it out to seem like counter picking. i think sam’s right i think if we don’t get 6v6 in the next year this game is cooked
its even crazier because sam has been CONSISTANT with all his points even after 8 months of posting this vid
i like how sam makes a point and follows up with an example so its proven
I like your opinion much more when your not getting interrupted constantly. . .