As someone who is Chinese, it was very difficult to listen to some of the anti-Chinese diatribes from cruelty-free proponents. I try to not buy from brands who test on animals, although I've made mistakes before. But I also avoid brands like Shein and Morphe who treat their employees like garbage. I do the best I can and that is all anyone can ask.
@Joan Corr There are quite a few countries where dog meat is eaten, including South Korea and The Philippines. Many people use Korean skincare and makeup without a qualm. The Amish in the US also treat dogs as livestock in terms of breeding and selling, and many do not treat those animals well. Feel free to boycott those countries as well. If you're going to stand on a hill, you'd better be ready to back it up or sit down. I am an American, born in America, but my heritage is Chinese. Your comment solidifies everything I said, so thank you.
Really appreciate the discussion about this. Human cruelty is so ignored in favor of talking about animal cruelty. there is also this undercurrent of anti-China sentiment and xenophobia in the way people talk about this topic. It’s talked about in a judgey way like China is immoral and Chinese people are all pro animal cruelty, but that’s not why those laws existed. Back in the late 90s, when China became capitalistic, there was a huge flood of cheap cosmetics to the market that contained unlabeled bad ingredients that seriously harmed a lot of people. They made these laws to protect people from serious harm. That threat is now gone and so are the laws. I feel like that context is never mentioned.
My views definitely became more nuanced in 2020. TBH the incredible anti-Chinese racism in the online CF community really upset me, to the point where I didn't want to identify as such anymore. (I hadn't even heard about CFK's announcement!) I still buy non-animal tested beauty products whenever possible, but I also care about sustainability and human rights, and definitely take that into consideration as well. In general, it is a privilege to be able to "vote with our dollars", and it's nasty to judge someone for making choices best for their own subjective lives.
The racism the Chinese community will encounter around the world after China invades Taiwan and arms Russia will be like nothing our generation has ever experienced.
I’ve been struggling with this issue for many years. I used to be extremely careful about what I bought animal testing wise. Then, I lost all of my carefully curated makeup and skincare in a fire. Starting from scratch, I can’t afford to replace what I had, and much of it is no longer available. I’ve made some mistakes in purchasing replacements, but I recently decided not to feel guilty about it. After all, I’m doing the best I can, and purchasing some gray area cosmetics doesn’t make me a horrible person.
This reminds me a lot of the processing I went through when I laxed on my veganism. I used to feel that I was unethical if I ever ate any animal product and so I strove to be 100% vegan in my eating. It's great to care about things and to work to do less harm, but being 100% at something is a lot more effort than 80 or 90% and I decided over time to lower my standards for myself. Doing that also allowed me to care about more things and look deeper than veganism. We feel a lot of pressure to be 100% at something, and especially pressure to be perfect and absolutist when others are watching you and holding you to that standard. But ultimately, making absolutes is just putting the line in an arbitrary place. Like how you said not testing on animals isn't an end all be all. Likewise, many vegans aren't doing any activism to protect farm workers who harvest and grow the produce we eat. We're still doing harm by consuming. It makes sense to work to do less harm, but to me, it doesn't make sense to draw the line in one place just so we can feel like we're doing enough and have a label like "vegan" or "cruelty free" to identify with.
I'm not vegan myself at all but I definitely try to be aware of what non-vegan makeup I'm buying-for instance I'm okay with using stuff with beeswax and honey but I won't use stuff that contains carmine or animal derived squalane as that involves killing the animal JUST to obtain that ONE byproduct.
i think in general it's impossible to be 100% ethical consumers because that's not the world we live in! all you can do is stick to what you're comfortable or even able to purchase
Thank you for sharing your opinion with us. I'd say people in cruelty-free community never really agree with each other 100%, just like some trust PETA while others don't, so I'm not surprised that some people have doubts about Cruelty-Free Kitty's latest statement. I felt a bit sad when I saw some irrational comments below her post though. I mean it's okay to have doubts, but it's not very appropriate to actually taunt someone. That can be hurtful.... And some people don't seem to be aware that a brand rarely sells the exact same products in stores in different countries. Wet n wild don't sell SPF products in my country, so I'm guessing they don't sell them in stores in China either; otherwise Cruelty-Free Kitty wouldn't have added the brand to the cruelty-free list. I'd say just believe in what you believe is the best. I also appreciate your extra information about mica. I've been trying to purchase from brands that are fair trade certified or at least claim to be using mica free from child labor, but the options are quite limited. I didn't know that Ethical Elephant has a list! Got to check it out! Just subscribed to your channel btw :)
I have a rescue beagle, so I am just happy to see these conversations being had. No one is perfect, but I love consumers who are trying to be as ethical as possible.
It seems like a waste of time to be so fuzzy about the “grey area” brands and getting so invested into that post-market aspect. It’s great that people care abt animals. But there’s always going to be ugly truths on these companies and we still give them our money at the end of the day. Like you said. There’s other types of cruelty ! So true ! So why be so hard on ourselves over small details about what happen to the products when it gets to the shelves in China. Love your thoughts on this ❤️❤️❤️
I wonder if this change is going to affect the status of more brands at some point soon. Brands like Nars, MAC, etc have seemed to be in a similar "grey area" for a long time and I'm curious to see if any changes come for them
This big ol gray area is why I don’t personally focus on shopping cruelty free. I don’t support brands that do pre-market animal testing, but to me, the risk of post-market testing on animals is not enough to make me stop purchasing from a brand. To me, the onus for this falls on China’s legislators and not on the brands themselves
I’m a vegan (or at least I try my best to live a lifestyle that causes minimal harm to animals), and I think your take is very reasonable. Being a beauty TH-camr is different, but as a lay person I try my best to buy less overall. The more we use what we have, the less waste we create through pollution and fast fashion. My goal this year is to learn how to sew so I can repurpose my clothing.
You brought up a good point about other types of cruelty. I would be interested to know if there are brands which abstain from child labor, slavery or unfair treatment of employees, and unfair trade. Great video!!
I watched Kackie's video on this topic and I pretty much echo her statements there. I don't really believe CF exists as a concept. It's perfectly legal in the EU and US to test the ingredients that go into our makeup on animals; sometimes without the brands knowledge - and sometimes they know about it. For me it feels like brands want to capitalize off of our optimism. They can say "yes we are cruelty free" to sell a few extra palettes but at the end of the day they themselves have no idea. But it makes them look good so who cares. I agree with you 100%. It's so nuanced, there are so many ways that a brand can become unethical. For me it all comes down to consumption. I'm not CF (are any of us really?), but I make sure that each and every item I bring into my life will get used up. The real problem in the beauty industry is overconsumption. Collecting and over-consuming makeup gives these companies the green light to produce cheaply made and badly sourced products that will end up in the landfill and waterways, harming animals and our ecosystem. If you want to lessen your impact, the only way you can do it is exactly that - lessening your impact.
You just said in a beautiful way what I feel. I buy minimal items. I would rather buy one thing that works perfectly for me, that I use to the bottom than try to replace it buying piles that don't work.
@@sherrypopiwchak7896 Exactly! Of course animals in testing facilities don't deserve to be there, and there are many other ways to test the safety of a product. But consumers are also harming animals with excessive waste polluting the ecosystem. It's best to just own what you will use.
I have decided to stop considering where a brand chooses to sell product as a means to decide whether or not to purchase from them. It is not my responsibility to spend the mental energy to stay up-to-date on the political, social, economic, and environmental policies on every country in the world. I had given it my best efforts to do my best in supporting brands that aligned with my own personal viewpoints and values, but it has gotten way to stressful to pay attention to absolutely everything. That is not to say that i have completely given up on paying attention to a brands business practices and basic ethos and ethics, but i am no longer obsessing over every single action. I do hope that animal testing does become a thing of the past everywhere, but i no longer feel that it is my job to keep tabs on every country's government and make note of whether or not my favorite brands sell where AT is still a thing.
I hope with Dove and Dial being more “cruelty free” it makes finding an affordable fragrance free body lotion easier. I have eczema and finding one has been tough. I use Aquaphor (which I know is not cruelty free) but my eczema is a medical condition. Similar to how you take prescription tretinoin( that’s not cruelty free). I try to make make sure all my makeup is cruelty free to the best of my knowledge.
Btw not calling you out for using tret and not being cruelty free or anything. Like you said cruelty free is more than just animals. I appreciate the place to have an open discussion about these topics
As someone that is living in Korea, one thing that really confuses me is Cruelty Free Kitty's views on Korean cosmetic companies. Etude House as an example is marked as not cruelty free because their ingredients might be sourced from countries that test on animals. If their ingredients are sourced from Korea, then we know their products are cruelty free because animal testing for cosmetic purposes is illegal in Korea at any level. It would be nice if CFK looked into where the ingredients are coming from. The other thing is, it still says that because Etude House sells its products in China, it's not cruelty free. It's kind of a double standard in that regard.
Honestly just buy products that are for certain CF Such as nyx, elf, catrice, essence, too faced ect Its just easier that way, because makeup are makeup Etude house eyeliner compare to elf eyeliner aint that far off and just works Plus elf is cheaper than etude house anyway
Honestly just buy products that are for certain CF Such as nyx, elf, catrice, essence, too faced ect Its just easier that way, because makeup are makeup Etude house eyeliner compare to elf eyeliner aint that far off and just works Plus elf is cheaper than etude house anyway
@@starward0997 That is actually not true in Korea. Kind of like how Korean products are marked up in the US, American brands are also marked up in Korea. Higher end brands like Urban Decay are more available, but cruelty free drugstore brands are not sold in physical stores in Korea.
Cruelty Free Kitty is someone that I've went by for years on brands, so if she says that it's OK to purchase from these brands, I'm going to trust her. I'm not going to rush out and buy all the things from any one of them, but if something comes out and catches my interest, I may look into them. Plus, I've got some lingering Suave items in particular that I don't feel quite as fast of a need to push out of my collection. Still, I think it's something that every person needs to decide for themselves what they want to purchase.
Imo, the trust is still broken in the brands themselves, like physicians formula, wet n wild, and first aid beauty. None of those brands admitted to selling in china until they got caught (wait.. maybe FAB did give us warning…). But FAB has been advertising that they’re cruelty free this entire time, that was always on their ig. So for me personally, I’ll still skip them. But it’s unfortunate there’s so much confusion in the cf space at the moment
It's so nice to hear someone who has the same thoughts as me. I am excited to dabble in Wet n Wild again and feel guilt free when buying FAB (I continued to do so for skin health reasons). I am really intrigued by that palette 👀 I still feel iffy on PF bc of their poor shade ranges
I think this is a individuals choice. I'm not an expert on cruelty free. I agree with your stance, and never judge ones personal choices, as I'm not perfect. The eye look turned out gorgeous
I buy exclusively vegan makeup, and I think a lot of vegans don't like the term "cruelty free" to describe "animal testing free". For example, if a product is not tested on animals but contains an ingredient that isn't vegetarian or vegan (eg squalene obtained from shark liver oil)... is it really animal cruelty free? As you said, there are also concerns about other types of cruelty (eg. human rights issues), but I just wanted to add that sometimes "cruelty free" doesn't even mean the product/brand is completely void of animal cruelty.
I do overall agree with everything you've said :) It can be very stressful trying to buy animal testing free when sources provide different information, so it makes sense to have personal rules in place. I do similar - if enough sources say a product is animal testing free, I will be happy to purchase, even if there are other sources that disagree.
I’ve been purchasing “cruelty free” products since 2018. However, I always allowed myself to buy products that weren’t if I couldn’t find one that was affordable and/or harmed/risked my health in any way. I’m so happy I can try these brands again! It’s been so long. 😊
I'm on a cosmetics no-buy until April anyway, so hope by then there will be even more clarification regarding all of this. I am being optimistic and adding these brands' products to my favorites lists. I had received a bottle of a Dove bodywash for Christmas and had been deciding what to do with it. I feel I can use it guilt-free. Besides, the Midwest winter has been drying out my skin and I know Dove bodywash is great for dry skin. One brand I'm still reading debates about is Tony Moly. Some say they're now cruelty free while others still have them on their "no" list.
I feel similarly to you on this gray area. I started watching your channel a while back when I started my CF journey but have always had a hard time in the gray area. I use CF kitty to help me decide if a product is cf or not and will probably continue to do that. We are all doing our best out here!
Great video as always! 💖I watched a few videos about cruelty free recently, a couple from Kackie and one from Shawna Ripari (thanks for recommending her channel by the way, I'm loving all her content). Kackie was talking about a conflict between the REACH laws and the cosmetic regulation ones in Europe, so it sounded like animal testing could still happen here! To be honest I'm starting to consider buying from brands that aren't labelled as 'cruelty free', like Maybelline, L'Oreal or Nars, because to me this is just becoming more and more confusing. And like you've said not animal tested shouldn't be the only thing we consider, the stuff around Mica and child labour, brands treating and paying their employees horribly, shade ranges that aren't inclusive, etc. all of those are also important. There's NO such a thing as cruelty free products under capitalism. But of course some brands make more of an effort than others and I'll try to buy from those first.
I do give myself a little more freedom on this topic as well, I am so happy that I will be seeing this brands in your channel again (here and there) because I can only afford drugstore makeup. Love the video, and I am so looking forward the reviews on the new products. 😀
I’ve always been torn (and honestly confused) by this too. I’ve also read that technically speaking the same laws have applied in the US as China (after they stopped pre-market testing). In the US they can also pull products from the shelves after market if serious complaints have been made about the product. And at that point the company can either go through testing or just pull the product from shelves. And this is the same thing that happens in China. And like you said, there is a lot more cruelty than just animal cruelty in the cosmetic world. I make it a point to only buy cruelty free products but I also think about a lot of other things. Fortunately lot of times cruelty free brands tend to also have better report cards when it comes to human rights, sustainability & inclusivity as well but not always. For instance in the case of mica mines and the horrific conditions children & adults are exposed to in India while working them. I hope that the industry has learned from that and they are truly taking steps to make mica mining more ethical. It’s really hard to shift through it all sometimes but I try to really look into the transparency of companies before I purchase from them. If anyone is interested there is a brand called Isla that is a prime example of how I believe the direction of the beauty industry should move. They tell you the price break down of every product, the ingredients and the percentage of all active ingredients, the country of origin, the packaging materials, it’s recyclability & instructions on how to recycle and they donate $1 from every purchase to the Clean Air Task Force. I would love to see more brands head in this direction and make it easier for consumers to make decisions. I think it’s also important as consumers to realize that overbuying cosmetic products damages more than your wallet. I know it’s fun to try new things and I don’t think people need to stop that but I do think a lot of people need to really think about what goes into making that one single lipstick and getting it to your doorstep and it’s effect on the rest of the planet. Sorry for the rant…I wish more beauty TH-camrs would discuss things like this, even though it’s hard because it’s your business as well. Thanks for being one of them!!! 💜
I agree that the term "cruelty free" is icky. I believe the term SHOULD be "ethical beauty". Do I think that ALL brands will achieve this status? No, I'm not that crazy. Do I hope MOST brands will at least TRY to go this way? Yes. If a brand proves that they have done the work to do this, I will try them in the future. If they don't, I will just stick to the brands I already purchase products from. If a brand is found to be shady as sh*t, I'll stop buying from them until they prove they have learned from that controversy. This is why I never stopped buying from First Aid Beauty when it was revealed that they were going to sell in China, at least until I found cheaper skincare products that my skin agrees with to buy instead. But, I'm not against going back to buying skincare from them again if I want to. Plus, they never hid the fact that they were concidering selling in China. All of this to say, there is so much gray area that no one is ever going to "win" when it comes to ethical consumerism. Brands are run by humans who are flawed just like us. I think the world could benefit from a bit more grace in all respects.
I agree the correct term would be not tested on animals . It can be so hard to know where you can and can’t buy especially as their is so much mixed information
I'm allowing myself to be a little more lax when it comes to my purchasing now. I've got a few products from these two brands, and I feel like the efforts they go to are enough for me to be comfortable purchasing from them again.
This was such a well thought out and nicely researched video! One of my favorites from you for sure!!! Really loved your take on people who have been purchasing from “gray area” & non-cruelty free brands. Due to various levels of accessibility and financial situations, I don’t think it’s right to judge anyone’s personal situation/viewpoint either. Personally, I don’t believe any consumer should be blamed for a company’s practices. Especially when it comes to replacing necessities like shower/skincare products when there might be heavy limitations due to different time & place circumstances. I also think what’s more important with makeup consumption is keeping yourself in check. For example: why should anyone feel bad if 2/8 eyeshadow palettes in their collection aren’t exactly “cruelty free?” When we see countless makeup “gurus” & review channels who might have 400+ eyeshadow palettes in their collection and time and time again they purchase without thought for mindless “reviews” after testing a product once and then neglecting it. Most of us on this side of the makeup community are way better than that and we shouldn’t feel bad when we aren’t to blame, the corporation itself is.
I’m so glad you’re speaking on this. I’ve dedicated so much time and energy into more ethical purchasing and focusing my collection in on cruelty free items. Now I feel like there is so much grey area, it’s a very interesting time in that way. I agree with you, we can only do our best with the info we have access to, that’s what makes these conversations so important
CF is such a grey area. Personally I never cared meaning that I buy from brands that are not considered CF. I am not evil, it’s not like I don’t care about animals but I’m not vegetarian? What’s the difference between harming animals to test the products vs eating them? (Rhetorical question). I do wish animal testing wasn’t a thing
The WnW palette is gorgeous 💛 I’ll try to dupe it with what I already have and then maybe do a recreation look 👀 because I really like what you did here 💛 Regarding the topic of the day, I started following Cruelty Free Kitty after I saw you reposting the news on Instagram (plus Kirsten’s Makeup Vanity did the same and I trust you both) and I mostly agree with her stance. I still have some older non-cruelty-free makeup and skincare products, but I simply can’t throw them away… so I hope this doesn’t make me an outcast hahaha
I completely agree with you on this. I am 100% against animal testing, but I'm not going to beat myself up over buying a product with the small chance that it might be subject to post-market animal testing in China. For me personally, I don't think these "gray area" brands are to blame for that; the Chinese government is making these laws. I've liked everything I've tried from Wet N Wild and the price point is so good. edit: I was actually going to recommend that lip color from Wet N Wild after your last Jan Shop your Stash video! LOL
CFK and EE are big sources for me, too! Leaping Bunny I have a harder time getting behind because they stand to profit from their program. Like you, I use it as a cross reference or as a source if a brand is not on either blog site, but my primary sources are those blogs!
I appreciate your transparency on your stance I do, however, consider your cruelty free lean as a major draw to your content I will be paying attention to the shift but agree you can't take the weight of the world on your shoulders - we all walk our own path
I appreciate the multi-layered approach. I've been buying cruelty free for years, but will now add ethically sourced. I'm keeping everything I own, but will use Ethical Elephant going forward.
I feel like my cruelty free journey has been identical to yours.. I found your channel because I was looking for cruelty free TH-camrs to watch and my guidelines for what I considered cf was the same as yours(only logical harmony and leaping bunny) I saw that cf kitty had more brands listed than LH and I thought her list was a bit more lax than LH.. but I started to realize that if you're gonna trust blogs, there's no reason to trust one over the other because how would they know more than legit organizations like LB or cruelty free international etc.. I remember unnatural vegan did a video on this when wnw first started selling in China and I didn't agree with her then but I came around and started to realize that post market testing is rare and if it does happen, it's very likely not being done to animals.. regardless of your stance on this, I really do think we're moving in the right direction, just think how many mainstream brands got certified in the last few years, (Garnier, dial, CoverGirl, Rimmel)..while I do still think of leaping bunny as the gold standard, I think their response was because of the fact that they have their own china pilot program so they don't want to give any legitimacy to other organizations like peta or cf kitty.. also, from what I understand, these brands sell only products that were produced in China, not their whole line of products, that's how they avoid pre market testing, so it's different from Nars or Mac.. at the end of the day, you have to do what's right for you and as long as you're avoiding brands that we know are still testing on animals like L'Oreal, these little nuances in different standards of what is cf are not that important, I will still prioritize leaping bunny but I won't boycott these brands anymore
Agree you just have to do your best otherwise it becomes overwhelming & all consuming. I understand people being passionate about it but cruelty to animals like you say is only one small facet of ethics. My preference is mindful consumption, as an individual l don't have the power of influence to change it all but l can lessen my impact ❤️
I think using one item that works perfectly for you is more sustainable and better all around than buying 5 that don't work just because they are deemed acceptable. Not that I support animal testing. I hate it.
To be honest, cruelty-free discourse has often rubbed me the wrong way because of the racist undertones. I don’t think everyone had those views - by a long shot! - but it seemed like a gateway into them from a sort of left wing side. I just hope we can realize prioritize workers’ conditions. Are there any union-made cosmetics? That might be interesting.
Where could I find this CF-community? Is there some forum for this, or does this conversation happen here in TH-cam? 🙂 Can I now buy Pantene and be cruelty free?
I'm just tired of having to feel responsible for the legislation of an authoritarian regime that I don't even live in. Also if China changed their laws, wouldn't that make all brands cruelty free? Why only these 10?
This is my question too! I believe some brands conduct pre-market animal testing in other areas, but I thought there were more brands that were only considered to not be cruelty free because of selling in China
i think the way i think about it is that I feel responsible for animal welfare. And China still allows post-market testing on animals according to my friend from Beijing, which if you look at the gov labs there, those animals live in the absolute worst conditions. There is some ambiguity about whether they do these post market tests on animals but there is a possibility and I don't want to risk it because of the ambiguity.
My thoughts have been what i thought from the start so many people have said this had been in the works for years many comments,articles,peta saying a pilot program had been in the works.
I have both of the UD Honey and call me sunshine by wet n wild , I think I mentioned it in your video I think the wet n wild is much better . Definitely worth the money
Kelly Gooch’s latest video sent me your way. Leaping Bunny’s statement is very shady to me. First off despite what Leaping Bunny is saying they are offering a 3rd party certification with no government oversight. Point blank even as a non-profit they are trying to turn a profit to keep themselves running and keep paying their employees. Those audits are extremely expensive. Like several thousand dollars for each audit. They would have to prove any and all of their suppliers are up to leaping bunny standard and pay for their audits. They would have to put in the manpower to maintain and upkeep the documentation set for leaping bunny. It’s not out of the question for some of these brands with large parent companies but it also may not be worth it for them to bother. At this point use your own judgement and take comments from someone trying to sell you something with a large grain of salt.
Prsonally, I don’t have a problem with LB charging fees to recup money that might be spent validating a brand’s claims. Some of these ‘newly’ CF brands have a history (in my opinion) of being less than transparent about their status selling in China and when they were found to be selling in China obfuscating the facts as far as the policies/practices to which they’d have to comply to sell there. If they want my $, and they want access to the $ that is in the Chinese market, they can pay up. It is a complicated issue, and people have their own preferences. I try to be strict with myself, e.g., I don’t shop at CF brands that have parent companies that animal test, but I understand that others have their reasons for doing so… hopefully someday there will be no testing anywhere 🐰❤️🐶
I agree with you as well. I don’t buy from any company that has a parent company that still tests on animals, unless I absolutely have to. And so far, over the last 10 years, I really haven’t had too. The one thing I really don’t like is when a CF company sells to a larger company, and doesn’t disclose it to the public before it happens. Native and Hello come to mind. I found out they sold out to a bigger company after the sale happened. That really makes me think that they may not have been so good to begin with. However, as I have gotten older, I have also gone very minimal in my routine/what I use/how much I buy as well, so it’s helped me to not be so upset when a company I used to use sells out.
@@Nikachu0906 I also find myself gravitating more and more toward supporting smaller indie brands, too, or ones that just seem a bit more under the radar, especially for eyeshadow…
These newly certified brands are only considered CF now by default due to the change in Chinese testing laws. They didn't do anything on their own to become certified. Or there are some brands, like WnW, that put themselves in the Chinese market. They don't deserve to be rewarded and still won't get my support. It's the principle of the matter. But you're right, we're all just doing the best we can.
This is my stance. I remember the chaos in the CF-community when the first images of WnW and PF in Chinese markets came out. It wasn’t so much about knowing the laws, it was the lack of transparency that hurt consumers the most. We unfortunately have parasocial relationships with not just Influencers, but brands- and that breach of trust was the worst they could’ve done. Had they come out and tried to soften the blow before they entered China, the story would be different!
I hear that! My issue is that we don't truly know if, by moving into China, WnW was actually being tested on animals anyway. Especially after reading MyBeautyBunny's post on the post-market testing topic, the issue gets very fuzzy. So I'm not sure it makes sense to condemn these brands for selling in China if they were going through necessary steps to avoid pre-market testing while selling there.
I’ll take leaping bunny’s word for it, because they have the resources and connections to actually know what’s going on. CFK is just one person. Notice she’s been quiet and hasn’t posted anything after this came out. Also how is Dove and Suave considered CF when they make special use cosmetics such as deodorant
I honestly wish that people would broaden their definition of what constitutes cruelty. So many brands being pushed that are not inclusive and ones that treat employees like crap. Are animals important? Yes. But what about people? Employees deserve to be treated fairly and marginalized groups should be able to have equitable access to products that match their skin tone, are accessible and meet their specific needs as well.
Maybe if companies were transparent and state how many cases of post animal testing was conducted we as consumers could actually have a better understanding of this.
I consider the social justice and racial equality aspect to be most important when purchasing. I don’t purchase from Wet n Wild or Physicians Formula, not because of their cruelty free status but because of their lack of shade range. Meanwhile I happily buy Mac and other ‘cruel’ brands since they cater to all skin tones.
Is it okay when Maybelline claims they do not support animal testing, but only if it is required by their distributors? This is very confusing! L'Oreal and Revlon also have the same stance. There is also the issue of vegan products that are not labeled cruelty-free, which is even more confusing.
It depends on how true the early stage tester program china/peta/cruelty free kitty had said has been in works for years now is if its true than most of these brands have BEEN "cruelty free" because the only thing making them not was chinas pre/post market testing laws saying if a recall possibly happen they would need to look into these laws also it divided folks on how often that could happen to be a worry. Yes Revlon is one of them they were truly cruelty free and got it "taken away" because of selling in the chinese market these new law/s could mean they,nars,sally hansen etc... are possibly CF again which is why suave,aussie,simple are back to CF only time will tell.
When in doubt, you with your gut feeling and that's a good choice to trust. :) The thing that matters is that you have given the topic thought as opposed to mindlessly consuming everything the market has to offer without any critical thinking as to how the products have been sourced in the first place. We can give ourselves such a hard time but the time you invest in something (i.e. hours of in depth research in this case) has to be in proportion of what you want to achieve. I am personally not willing to invest hours of my valuable time into deep diving so I trust others that give me the impression that they do.
In the EU it's technically illegal to have 'not tested on animals' on the comestic product. Animal testing is prohibited under EU law for cosmetics and companies aren't allowed to market a legal requirement as a selling point. I have seen products with leaping bunny logo etc in the shops here and I'm not well versed in legality so I'm unsure what exactly cosmetics entail if it's just makeup or is skincare included etc
I have tried trying to be 100% cruelty free, but it is impossible personally. My country doesn't really have all the products in Cruelty Free Kitty website and it's not possible for me to solely spend my money in cruelty freeness. So I have to make rules for myself. To be cruelty free as best as I can that doesn't give me headaches. So now I mainly use local products that claim to be cruelty free, because I definitely still used "no selling in China" as a rule. Local products are less likely to be sold in China. The rest will be the affordable and accessible ones in Cruelty Free Kitty website (I have explored other websites and sometimes they say different things, so I settle on only one resource, cuz if I have to consider all those websites, it will give me massive headaches (I did get headaches when I transitioned from all or nothing mindset to "my rules" mindset, I'm stubborn, it's hard to change mindsets, mindset changes always give me headaches)). I think we just have to do the best we can do realistically.
The fact that there is even a possibility of animal testing because of an allergy is ridiculous. If fragrance was removed from makeup that could potentially alleviate majority of issues.
This was a very thoughtful video. I've been thinking along those same lines as well. In fact I recently bought the new Wet and Wild clarifying powder in the white Packaging. It's fantastic. I can't believe the price point. I'll be glad to see more of these brands on your Channel. I love how your loook turned out by the way. How do you like the quality of the wet and wild eyeshadows? You have so many high-end ones to compare to.
I think were all just trying our best and our personalities play a lot into that some people are just more lax as long a s peta says its good its good while others are very very VERY strict wont eat at a restaurant unless its fully vegan/only buys from fully vegan brands and gets upset at "CF" label its a lot too try to follow along and figure out :/
If you were to look into the real history of makeup. Didn't I come from bugs and amamials. I mean, don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that's how makeup was started. It was also used to protect people from the outside elements.
While I prefer animals to not be chemically burned and what not just simply so I can have a pretty sparkly eyeshadow or something, I also agree that there is so much more cruelty to think about. I buy products not tested on animals for the most part. I also look at brand owners.. if they are labeled as cruelty free, I don't care because if they are a trash brand or have a horrible owner, looking at you ABH, then I'm not buying from them. Same with Kylie. She's cruelty free but takes 4 minute flights to go shopping. That's worse to me and bad enough to not buy from them. So I mostly just now look at morals and who actually is benefitting my actual hard earned dollar
I live in Hong Kong. I’m trying to buy more cruelty free products. I see cruelty free websites as a guideline for purchasing. I read some articles said there are some ways to replace animals testing. Beside animal testing, I also care how a brand treats their customers and such. Also I don’t understand why there are some rumour about cruelty free is anti China or try to attack China.
I totally agree it is a confusing topic with different sources having different stances. That said I am also not inclined to believe the Chinese government given they are a communist country and their other political policies. For example, it is my understanding that dog meat markets are "against the law" however that law is not enforced. It's a personal choice that all consumers need to make per their conscience. Personally I will continue to put my money to companies that do not sell in China. I only hope things are more clear soon and animal testing becomes a thing of the distance past!
What are your views on Cruelty free brands that use carmine (crushed up bugs) in their products? I find it difficult for them to say they're cruelty free when they're killing bugs. They're not testing on animals, but bug murder seems cruel. I hate bugs, but I don't want them killed for makeup. 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
You should take these videos down. You know the information is factually incorrect at this point and it’s irresponsible to continue to tell misinformation about leaping bunny. I will make sure they are aware. People are on Reddit still spreading your bad info.
i think the lack of clarity about China's post-market testing policy is enough to make the decision to not buy. I feel like I'd be selling out by giving in and buying these products. Other jurisdictions (South korea, EU countries) have such clear policies that I feel comfortable buying from the brands that sell there in opposition to sell in China. I appreciate you being transparent about your reduced priority of animal testing and while I've enjoyed your content over the past few years, I will be unsubscribing now.
Sorry I should have been clearer: I buy from cruelty free companies in those places. And no since 2016(I think but not completely sure) Europe has banned testing new cosmetics on animals (with some exceptions). South Korea has banned recently. These policies make it easier for me to believe that a company saying it’s cruelty free and certified as cruelty free by an external accreditation system is actually not testing on animals. Whereas for many other places (including my own country) animal testing laws are vague and Unenforced. So since I cannot understand the policy of China due to all these ambiguities, I don’t believe cruelty free claims from companies that sell there.
I didn’t mean to make it sound like no cosmetic animal testing occurs in the US. Also for EU, I’ve just reread some of the clauses banning cosmetic animal testing it seems like it is still banned and labs can be fined for not abiding the regulations. But I will look into this in more detail again in case things have been changed or are not being enforced properly.
This is ridiculous, you know how many animal die when it comes to research regarding medicine??? I don't hear a peep out of people, they can care less when it comes to survival. My point is I don't think now days there is a need to test makeup in animals, we been progressing. Now, I'm not naïve and there is a lot of things that maybe happening in the background. But makeup is suppose to be fun and enjoyable. It's not suppose to be this deep! Enjoy the products wet n' wild has amazing things!!! 💛💛💛💛💛💛
It's not deep to you because of ur morals. Child labors being involved, animal testing, and unfair wages. Yeah, makeup is supposed to be "fun" but that's because you don't care about how it's being made. You'd care if that was ur child working ungodly amount of hours for terrible pay, if that was your cat being tested on , or if it were you getting paid $13 for a weeks worth of work.
I’m not really educated enough on this issue but I would hope the brands that test on animals aren’t killing or hurting them. I’m assuming the translation of “cruelty free” could have been lost in translation as a way for companies to gain customer loyalty, and make people automatically think testing means hurting animals when it very well may not be the case. Again, I haven’t done enough research. Just a thought though.
I just found out animals do suffer, but since there has already been testing in the past and damage that’s been done, I think cruelty free is just a way for companies to sell us. I think they probably don’t need to test on animals anymore because it’s already been done with certain ingredients that are already approved before companies changed their status.
I think it could be kinda like how some brands say they are “clean beauty” to sell us when the reality is that some preservative ingredients aren’t inherently bad. They just may not be deemed as “natural”
As someone who is Chinese, it was very difficult to listen to some of the anti-Chinese diatribes from cruelty-free proponents. I try to not buy from brands who test on animals, although I've made mistakes before. But I also avoid brands like Shein and Morphe who treat their employees like garbage. I do the best I can and that is all anyone can ask.
Isn't it disappointing? 2023 and we're still doing this garbage.
@Joan Corr There are quite a few countries where dog meat is eaten, including South Korea and The Philippines. Many people use Korean skincare and makeup without a qualm. The Amish in the US also treat dogs as livestock in terms of breeding and selling, and many do not treat those animals well. Feel free to boycott those countries as well. If you're going to stand on a hill, you'd better be ready to back it up or sit down. I am an American, born in America, but my heritage is Chinese. Your comment solidifies everything I said, so thank you.
Yes cruelty free includes treating your employees decently too.
I think its important to recognize its the Chinese GOVERNMENT and not the regular citizens that are to blame for animal testing.
Really appreciate the discussion about this. Human cruelty is so ignored in favor of talking about animal cruelty. there is also this undercurrent of anti-China sentiment and xenophobia in the way people talk about this topic. It’s talked about in a judgey way like China is immoral and Chinese people are all pro animal cruelty, but that’s not why those laws existed. Back in the late 90s, when China became capitalistic, there was a huge flood of cheap cosmetics to the market that contained unlabeled bad ingredients that seriously harmed a lot of people. They made these laws to protect people from serious harm. That threat is now gone and so are the laws. I feel like that context is never mentioned.
So so important!
My views definitely became more nuanced in 2020. TBH the incredible anti-Chinese racism in the online CF community really upset me, to the point where I didn't want to identify as such anymore. (I hadn't even heard about CFK's announcement!) I still buy non-animal tested beauty products whenever possible, but I also care about sustainability and human rights, and definitely take that into consideration as well. In general, it is a privilege to be able to "vote with our dollars", and it's nasty to judge someone for making choices best for their own subjective lives.
The racism the Chinese community will encounter around the world after China invades Taiwan and arms Russia will be like nothing our generation has ever experienced.
I’ve been struggling with this issue for many years. I used to be extremely careful about what I bought animal testing wise. Then, I lost all of my carefully curated makeup and skincare in a fire. Starting from scratch, I can’t afford to replace what I had, and much of it is no longer available. I’ve made some mistakes in purchasing replacements, but I recently decided not to feel guilty about it. After all, I’m doing the best I can, and purchasing some gray area cosmetics doesn’t make me a horrible person.
This reminds me a lot of the processing I went through when I laxed on my veganism. I used to feel that I was unethical if I ever ate any animal product and so I strove to be 100% vegan in my eating. It's great to care about things and to work to do less harm, but being 100% at something is a lot more effort than 80 or 90% and I decided over time to lower my standards for myself. Doing that also allowed me to care about more things and look deeper than veganism.
We feel a lot of pressure to be 100% at something, and especially pressure to be perfect and absolutist when others are watching you and holding you to that standard. But ultimately, making absolutes is just putting the line in an arbitrary place. Like how you said not testing on animals isn't an end all be all.
Likewise, many vegans aren't doing any activism to protect farm workers who harvest and grow the produce we eat.
We're still doing harm by consuming. It makes sense to work to do less harm, but to me, it doesn't make sense to draw the line in one place just so we can feel like we're doing enough and have a label like "vegan" or "cruelty free" to identify with.
I'm not vegan myself at all but I definitely try to be aware of what non-vegan makeup I'm buying-for instance I'm okay with using stuff with beeswax and honey but I won't use stuff that contains carmine or animal derived squalane as that involves killing the animal JUST to obtain that ONE byproduct.
i think in general it's impossible to be 100% ethical consumers because that's not the world we live in! all you can do is stick to what you're comfortable or even able to purchase
Thank you for sharing your opinion with us. I'd say people in cruelty-free community never really agree with each other 100%, just like some trust PETA while others don't, so I'm not surprised that some people have doubts about Cruelty-Free Kitty's latest statement. I felt a bit sad when I saw some irrational comments below her post though. I mean it's okay to have doubts, but it's not very appropriate to actually taunt someone. That can be hurtful.... And some people don't seem to be aware that a brand rarely sells the exact same products in stores in different countries. Wet n wild don't sell SPF products in my country, so I'm guessing they don't sell them in stores in China either; otherwise Cruelty-Free Kitty wouldn't have added the brand to the cruelty-free list.
I'd say just believe in what you believe is the best.
I also appreciate your extra information about mica. I've been trying to purchase from brands that are fair trade certified or at least claim to be using mica free from child labor, but the options are quite limited. I didn't know that Ethical Elephant has a list! Got to check it out!
Just subscribed to your channel btw :)
I have a rescue beagle, so I am just happy to see these conversations being had. No one is perfect, but I love consumers who are trying to be as ethical as possible.
It seems like a waste of time to be so fuzzy about the “grey area” brands and getting so invested into that post-market aspect. It’s great that people care abt animals. But there’s always going to be ugly truths on these companies and we still give them our money at the end of the day. Like you said. There’s other types of cruelty ! So true ! So why be so hard on ourselves over small details about what happen to the products when it gets to the shelves in China. Love your thoughts on this ❤️❤️❤️
my thoughts exactly!!
I wonder if this change is going to affect the status of more brands at some point soon. Brands like Nars, MAC, etc have seemed to be in a similar "grey area" for a long time and I'm curious to see if any changes come for them
I'm wondering the same! Really hoping we can get more answers on that soon 🤞
This big ol gray area is why I don’t personally focus on shopping cruelty free. I don’t support brands that do pre-market animal testing, but to me, the risk of post-market testing on animals is not enough to make me stop purchasing from a brand. To me, the onus for this falls on China’s legislators and not on the brands themselves
I’m a vegan (or at least I try my best to live a lifestyle that causes minimal harm to animals), and I think your take is very reasonable.
Being a beauty TH-camr is different, but as a lay person I try my best to buy less overall. The more we use what we have, the less waste we create through pollution and fast fashion.
My goal this year is to learn how to sew so I can repurpose my clothing.
I agree - I think the single most important thing we can do to be more ethical consumers is to simply buy less stuff!
You brought up a good point about other types of cruelty. I would be interested to know if there are brands which abstain from child labor, slavery or unfair treatment of employees, and unfair trade. Great video!!
Ik this is old, but elf is actually certified fair trade and was part of the every body campaign!
I watched Kackie's video on this topic and I pretty much echo her statements there. I don't really believe CF exists as a concept. It's perfectly legal in the EU and US to test the ingredients that go into our makeup on animals; sometimes without the brands knowledge - and sometimes they know about it. For me it feels like brands want to capitalize off of our optimism. They can say "yes we are cruelty free" to sell a few extra palettes but at the end of the day they themselves have no idea. But it makes them look good so who cares.
I agree with you 100%. It's so nuanced, there are so many ways that a brand can become unethical. For me it all comes down to consumption. I'm not CF (are any of us really?), but I make sure that each and every item I bring into my life will get used up. The real problem in the beauty industry is overconsumption. Collecting and over-consuming makeup gives these companies the green light to produce cheaply made and badly sourced products that will end up in the landfill and waterways, harming animals and our ecosystem. If you want to lessen your impact, the only way you can do it is exactly that - lessening your impact.
You just said in a beautiful way what I feel. I buy minimal items. I would rather buy one thing that works perfectly for me, that I use to the bottom than try to replace it buying piles that don't work.
@@sherrypopiwchak7896 Exactly! Of course animals in testing facilities don't deserve to be there, and there are many other ways to test the safety of a product. But consumers are also harming animals with excessive waste polluting the ecosystem. It's best to just own what you will use.
@@BethInABox15 have a great day!
I have decided to stop considering where a brand chooses to sell product as a means to decide whether or not to purchase from them. It is not my responsibility to spend the mental energy to stay up-to-date on the political, social, economic, and environmental policies on every country in the world. I had given it my best efforts to do my best in supporting brands that aligned with my own personal viewpoints and values, but it has gotten way to stressful to pay attention to absolutely everything. That is not to say that i have completely given up on paying attention to a brands business practices and basic ethos and ethics, but i am no longer obsessing over every single action. I do hope that animal testing does become a thing of the past everywhere, but i no longer feel that it is my job to keep tabs on every country's government and make note of whether or not my favorite brands sell where AT is still a thing.
I hope with Dove and Dial being more “cruelty free” it makes finding an affordable fragrance free body lotion easier. I have eczema and finding one has been tough. I use Aquaphor (which I know is not cruelty free) but my eczema is a medical condition. Similar to how you take prescription tretinoin( that’s not cruelty free). I try to make make sure all my makeup is cruelty free to the best of my knowledge.
Btw not calling you out for using tret and not being cruelty free or anything. Like you said cruelty free is more than just animals. I appreciate the place to have an open discussion about these topics
As someone that is living in Korea, one thing that really confuses me is Cruelty Free Kitty's views on Korean cosmetic companies. Etude House as an example is marked as not cruelty free because their ingredients might be sourced from countries that test on animals.
If their ingredients are sourced from Korea, then we know their products are cruelty free because animal testing for cosmetic purposes is illegal in Korea at any level. It would be nice if CFK looked into where the ingredients are coming from.
The other thing is, it still says that because Etude House sells its products in China, it's not cruelty free. It's kind of a double standard in that regard.
This is great information!
Honestly just buy products that are for certain CF
Such as nyx, elf, catrice, essence, too faced ect
Its just easier that way, because makeup are makeup
Etude house eyeliner compare to elf eyeliner aint that far off and just works
Plus elf is cheaper than etude house anyway
Honestly just buy products that are for certain CF
Such as nyx, elf, catrice, essence, too faced ect
Its just easier that way, because makeup are makeup
Etude house eyeliner compare to elf eyeliner aint that far off and just works
Plus elf is cheaper than etude house anyway
@@starward0997 That is actually not true in Korea. Kind of like how Korean products are marked up in the US, American brands are also marked up in Korea. Higher end brands like Urban Decay are more available, but cruelty free drugstore brands are not sold in physical stores in Korea.
@michellelee7846 have ever try of online shopping ?
Buying non cruelty free makeup means you are not morally for the animals just for mere "beauty"
Cruelty Free Kitty is someone that I've went by for years on brands, so if she says that it's OK to purchase from these brands, I'm going to trust her. I'm not going to rush out and buy all the things from any one of them, but if something comes out and catches my interest, I may look into them. Plus, I've got some lingering Suave items in particular that I don't feel quite as fast of a need to push out of my collection. Still, I think it's something that every person needs to decide for themselves what they want to purchase.
Imo, the trust is still broken in the brands themselves, like physicians formula, wet n wild, and first aid beauty. None of those brands admitted to selling in china until they got caught (wait.. maybe FAB did give us warning…). But FAB has been advertising that they’re cruelty free this entire time, that was always on their ig. So for me personally, I’ll still skip them. But it’s unfortunate there’s so much confusion in the cf space at the moment
It's so nice to hear someone who has the same thoughts as me. I am excited to dabble in Wet n Wild again and feel guilt free when buying FAB (I continued to do so for skin health reasons). I am really intrigued by that palette 👀 I still feel iffy on PF bc of their poor shade ranges
It’s so hard to find a good fragrance free, cruelty free lotion. FAB is great
I think this is a individuals choice. I'm not an expert on cruelty free. I agree with your stance, and never judge ones personal choices, as I'm not perfect. The eye look turned out gorgeous
I buy exclusively vegan makeup, and I think a lot of vegans don't like the term "cruelty free" to describe "animal testing free".
For example, if a product is not tested on animals but contains an ingredient that isn't vegetarian or vegan (eg squalene obtained from shark liver oil)... is it really animal cruelty free?
As you said, there are also concerns about other types of cruelty (eg. human rights issues), but I just wanted to add that sometimes "cruelty free" doesn't even mean the product/brand is completely void of animal cruelty.
I do overall agree with everything you've said :) It can be very stressful trying to buy animal testing free when sources provide different information, so it makes sense to have personal rules in place. I do similar - if enough sources say a product is animal testing free, I will be happy to purchase, even if there are other sources that disagree.
I’ve been purchasing “cruelty free” products since 2018. However, I always allowed myself to buy products that weren’t if I couldn’t find one that was affordable and/or harmed/risked my health in any way. I’m so happy I can try these brands again! It’s been so long. 😊
I'm on a cosmetics no-buy until April anyway, so hope by then there will be even more clarification regarding all of this. I am being optimistic and adding these brands' products to my favorites lists. I had received a bottle of a Dove bodywash for Christmas and had been deciding what to do with it. I feel I can use it guilt-free. Besides, the Midwest winter has been drying out my skin and I know Dove bodywash is great for dry skin.
One brand I'm still reading debates about is Tony Moly. Some say they're now cruelty free while others still have them on their "no" list.
I wore my Wet n Wild palette earlier this week. It’s beautiful.
I feel similarly to you on this gray area. I started watching your channel a while back when I started my CF journey but have always had a hard time in the gray area. I use CF kitty to help me decide if a product is cf or not and will probably continue to do that. We are all doing our best out here!
Great video as always! 💖I watched a few videos about cruelty free recently, a couple from Kackie and one from Shawna Ripari (thanks for recommending her channel by the way, I'm loving all her content). Kackie was talking about a conflict between the REACH laws and the cosmetic regulation ones in Europe, so it sounded like animal testing could still happen here!
To be honest I'm starting to consider buying from brands that aren't labelled as 'cruelty free', like Maybelline, L'Oreal or Nars, because to me this is just becoming more and more confusing. And like you've said not animal tested shouldn't be the only thing we consider, the stuff around Mica and child labour, brands treating and paying their employees horribly, shade ranges that aren't inclusive, etc. all of those are also important. There's NO such a thing as cruelty free products under capitalism. But of course some brands make more of an effort than others and I'll try to buy from those first.
I do give myself a little more freedom on this topic as well, I am so happy that I will be seeing this brands in your channel again (here and there) because I can only afford drugstore makeup. Love the video, and I am so looking forward the reviews on the new products. 😀
I am happy to see wet and wild back on your list. It's still one of my favorite drugstore brands. I still want to try their dewy photofocus Foundation
Really well said Sarah. I really liked the part where you talked about brands morals, I have to remind myself brands are huge & are not individuals.
I’ve always been torn (and honestly confused) by this too. I’ve also read that technically speaking the same laws have applied in the US as China (after they stopped pre-market testing). In the US they can also pull products from the shelves after market if serious complaints have been made about the product. And at that point the company can either go through testing or just pull the product from shelves. And this is the same thing that happens in China.
And like you said, there is a lot more cruelty than just animal cruelty in the cosmetic world. I make it a point to only buy cruelty free products but I also think about a lot of other things. Fortunately lot of times cruelty free brands tend to also have better report cards when it comes to human rights, sustainability & inclusivity as well but not always. For instance in the case of mica mines and the horrific conditions children & adults are exposed to in India while working them. I hope that the industry has learned from that and they are truly taking steps to make mica mining more ethical. It’s really hard to shift through it all sometimes but I try to really look into the transparency of companies before I purchase from them.
If anyone is interested there is a brand called Isla that is a prime example of how I believe the direction of the beauty industry should move. They tell you the price break down of every product, the ingredients and the percentage of all active ingredients, the country of origin, the packaging materials, it’s recyclability & instructions on how to recycle and they donate $1 from every purchase to the Clean Air Task Force. I would love to see more brands head in this direction and make it easier for consumers to make decisions. I think it’s also important as consumers to realize that overbuying cosmetic products damages more than your wallet. I know it’s fun to try new things and I don’t think people need to stop that but I do think a lot of people need to really think about what goes into making that one single lipstick and getting it to your doorstep and it’s effect on the rest of the planet. Sorry for the rant…I wish more beauty TH-camrs would discuss things like this, even though it’s hard because it’s your business as well.
Thanks for being one of them!!! 💜
I agree that the term "cruelty free" is icky. I believe the term SHOULD be "ethical beauty". Do I think that ALL brands will achieve this status? No, I'm not that crazy. Do I hope MOST brands will at least TRY to go this way? Yes. If a brand proves that they have done the work to do this, I will try them in the future. If they don't, I will just stick to the brands I already purchase products from. If a brand is found to be shady as sh*t, I'll stop buying from them until they prove they have learned from that controversy. This is why I never stopped buying from First Aid Beauty when it was revealed that they were going to sell in China, at least until I found cheaper skincare products that my skin agrees with to buy instead. But, I'm not against going back to buying skincare from them again if I want to. Plus, they never hid the fact that they were concidering selling in China. All of this to say, there is so much gray area that no one is ever going to "win" when it comes to ethical consumerism. Brands are run by humans who are flawed just like us. I think the world could benefit from a bit more grace in all respects.
I agree the correct term would be not tested on animals . It can be so hard to know where you can and can’t buy especially as their is so much mixed information
I'm allowing myself to be a little more lax when it comes to my purchasing now. I've got a few products from these two brands, and I feel like the efforts they go to are enough for me to be comfortable purchasing from them again.
I really like the WetnWild palettes. Pretty colour stories and easy to use
This was such a well thought out and nicely researched video! One of my favorites from you for sure!!!
Really loved your take on people who have been purchasing from “gray area” & non-cruelty free brands. Due to various levels of accessibility and financial situations, I don’t think it’s right to judge anyone’s personal situation/viewpoint either. Personally, I don’t believe any consumer should be blamed for a company’s practices. Especially when it comes to replacing necessities like shower/skincare products when there might be heavy limitations due to different time & place circumstances.
I also think what’s more important with makeup consumption is keeping yourself in check. For example: why should anyone feel bad if 2/8 eyeshadow palettes in their collection aren’t exactly “cruelty free?” When we see countless makeup “gurus” & review channels who might have 400+ eyeshadow palettes in their collection and time and time again they purchase without thought for mindless “reviews” after testing a product once and then neglecting it. Most of us on this side of the makeup community are way better than that and we shouldn’t feel bad when we aren’t to blame, the corporation itself is.
I recently picked up the WnW Dewy Photofocus foundation, it's so good.
I’m so glad you’re speaking on this. I’ve dedicated so much time and energy into more ethical purchasing and focusing my collection in on cruelty free items. Now I feel like there is so much grey area, it’s a very interesting time in that way. I agree with you, we can only do our best with the info we have access to, that’s what makes these conversations so important
CF is such a grey area. Personally I never cared meaning that I buy from brands that are not considered CF. I am not evil, it’s not like I don’t care about animals but I’m not vegetarian? What’s the difference between harming animals to test the products vs eating them? (Rhetorical question). I do wish animal testing wasn’t a thing
Usually when people are eating animals. They way they die is ethical? Like they make sure it's quick, and fast. But testing prolongs the suffering
It’s confusing for sure really don’t know either probably I’m with you on the post marketing in china. 💯 Thank you for talking about this. 😊
The WnW palette is gorgeous 💛 I’ll try to dupe it with what I already have and then maybe do a recreation look 👀 because I really like what you did here 💛
Regarding the topic of the day, I started following Cruelty Free Kitty after I saw you reposting the news on Instagram (plus Kirsten’s Makeup Vanity did the same and I trust you both) and I mostly agree with her stance.
I still have some older non-cruelty-free makeup and skincare products, but I simply can’t throw them away… so I hope this doesn’t make me an outcast hahaha
It won't help anyone to throw items away. You sound like a good person doing your best...that's the best any of us can do!
@@sherrypopiwchak7896 aww thank you for your kind words ❤️
I completely agree with you on this. I am 100% against animal testing, but I'm not going to beat myself up over buying a product with the small chance that it might be subject to post-market animal testing in China. For me personally, I don't think these "gray area" brands are to blame for that; the Chinese government is making these laws. I've liked everything I've tried from Wet N Wild and the price point is so good.
edit: I was actually going to recommend that lip color from Wet N Wild after your last Jan Shop your Stash video! LOL
CFK and EE are big sources for me, too! Leaping Bunny I have a harder time getting behind because they stand to profit from their program. Like you, I use it as a cross reference or as a source if a brand is not on either blog site, but my primary sources are those blogs!
Which gold shade is the duochrome? I couldn't tell which one you were swatching
I appreciate your transparency on your stance I do, however, consider your cruelty free lean as a major draw to your content I will be paying attention to the shift but agree you can't take the weight of the world on your shoulders - we all walk our own path
I appreciate the multi-layered approach. I've been buying cruelty free for years, but will now add ethically sourced. I'm keeping everything I own, but will use Ethical Elephant going forward.
I feel like my cruelty free journey has been identical to yours.. I found your channel because I was looking for cruelty free TH-camrs to watch and my guidelines for what I considered cf was the same as yours(only logical harmony and leaping bunny) I saw that cf kitty had more brands listed than LH and I thought her list was a bit more lax than LH.. but I started to realize that if you're gonna trust blogs, there's no reason to trust one over the other because how would they know more than legit organizations like LB or cruelty free international etc.. I remember unnatural vegan did a video on this when wnw first started selling in China and I didn't agree with her then but I came around and started to realize that post market testing is rare and if it does happen, it's very likely not being done to animals.. regardless of your stance on this, I really do think we're moving in the right direction, just think how many mainstream brands got certified in the last few years, (Garnier, dial, CoverGirl, Rimmel)..while I do still think of leaping bunny as the gold standard, I think their response was because of the fact that they have their own china pilot program so they don't want to give any legitimacy to other organizations like peta or cf kitty.. also, from what I understand, these brands sell only products that were produced in China, not their whole line of products, that's how they avoid pre market testing, so it's different from Nars or Mac.. at the end of the day, you have to do what's right for you and as long as you're avoiding brands that we know are still testing on animals like L'Oreal, these little nuances in different standards of what is cf are not that important, I will still prioritize leaping bunny but I won't boycott these brands anymore
Agree you just have to do your best otherwise it becomes overwhelming & all consuming. I understand people being passionate about it but cruelty to animals like you say is only one small facet of ethics. My preference is mindful consumption, as an individual l don't have the power of influence to change it all but l can lessen my impact ❤️
I think using one item that works perfectly for you is more sustainable and better all around than buying 5 that don't work just because they are deemed acceptable. Not that I support animal testing. I hate it.
To be honest, cruelty-free discourse has often rubbed me the wrong way because of the racist undertones. I don’t think everyone had those views - by a long shot! - but it seemed like a gateway into them from a sort of left wing side.
I just hope we can realize prioritize workers’ conditions. Are there any union-made cosmetics? That might be interesting.
Where could I find this CF-community? Is there some forum for this, or does this conversation happen here in TH-cam? 🙂
Can I now buy Pantene and be cruelty free?
I'm just tired of having to feel responsible for the legislation of an authoritarian regime that I don't even live in.
Also if China changed their laws, wouldn't that make all brands cruelty free? Why only these 10?
This is my question too! I believe some brands conduct pre-market animal testing in other areas, but I thought there were more brands that were only considered to not be cruelty free because of selling in China
i think the way i think about it is that I feel responsible for animal welfare. And China still allows post-market testing on animals according to my friend from Beijing, which if you look at the gov labs there, those animals live in the absolute worst conditions. There is some ambiguity about whether they do these post market tests on animals but there is a possibility and I don't want to risk it because of the ambiguity.
I’m back to watch the rest of the video you created a beautiful look Sarah
Better to test on humans.
My thoughts have been what i thought from the start so many people have said this had been in the works for years many comments,articles,peta saying a pilot program had been in the works.
I have both of the UD Honey and call me sunshine by wet n wild , I think I mentioned it in your video I think the wet n wild is much better . Definitely worth the money
Kelly Gooch’s latest video sent me your way. Leaping Bunny’s statement is very shady to me. First off despite what Leaping Bunny is saying they are offering a 3rd party certification with no government oversight. Point blank even as a non-profit they are trying to turn a profit to keep themselves running and keep paying their employees. Those audits are extremely expensive. Like several thousand dollars for each audit. They would have to prove any and all of their suppliers are up to leaping bunny standard and pay for their audits. They would have to put in the manpower to maintain and upkeep the documentation set for leaping bunny. It’s not out of the question for some of these brands with large parent companies but it also may not be worth it for them to bother. At this point use your own judgement and take comments from someone trying to sell you something with a large grain of salt.
! yep my real theory on this is there worried about losing funding if these new law/s changes are real...
Prsonally, I don’t have a problem with LB charging fees to recup money that might be spent validating a brand’s claims. Some of these ‘newly’ CF brands have a history (in my opinion) of being less than transparent about their status selling in China and when they were found to be selling in China obfuscating the facts as far as the policies/practices to which they’d have to comply to sell there. If they want my $, and they want access to the $ that is in the Chinese market, they can pay up. It is a complicated issue, and people have their own preferences. I try to be strict with myself, e.g., I don’t shop at CF brands that have parent companies that animal test, but I understand that others have their reasons for doing so… hopefully someday there will be no testing anywhere 🐰❤️🐶
I totally understand your stance! I do think we are slowly making progress towards a world with no animal testing 🤞🏻🤞🏻
I agree with you as well. I don’t buy from any company that has a parent company that still tests on animals, unless I absolutely have to. And so far, over the last 10 years, I really haven’t had too. The one thing I really don’t like is when a CF company sells to a larger company, and doesn’t disclose it to the public before it happens. Native and Hello come to mind. I found out they sold out to a bigger company after the sale happened. That really makes me think that they may not have been so good to begin with. However, as I have gotten older, I have also gone very minimal in my routine/what I use/how much I buy as well, so it’s helped me to not be so upset when a company I used to use sells out.
@@Nikachu0906 I also find myself gravitating more and more toward supporting smaller indie brands, too, or ones that just seem a bit more under the radar, especially for eyeshadow…
We have post market testing in the United States so nothing sold here is cruelty free if you count the possibility of post market testing.
These newly certified brands are only considered CF now by default due to the change in Chinese testing laws. They didn't do anything on their own to become certified. Or there are some brands, like WnW, that put themselves in the Chinese market. They don't deserve to be rewarded and still won't get my support. It's the principle of the matter. But you're right, we're all just doing the best we can.
This is my stance. I remember the chaos in the CF-community when the first images of WnW and PF in Chinese markets came out. It wasn’t so much about knowing the laws, it was the lack of transparency that hurt consumers the most. We unfortunately have parasocial relationships with not just Influencers, but brands- and that breach of trust was the worst they could’ve done. Had they come out and tried to soften the blow before they entered China, the story would be different!
I hear that! My issue is that we don't truly know if, by moving into China, WnW was actually being tested on animals anyway. Especially after reading MyBeautyBunny's post on the post-market testing topic, the issue gets very fuzzy. So I'm not sure it makes sense to condemn these brands for selling in China if they were going through necessary steps to avoid pre-market testing while selling there.
I’ll take leaping bunny’s word for it, because they have the resources and connections to actually know what’s going on. CFK is just one person. Notice she’s been quiet and hasn’t posted anything after this came out. Also how is Dove and Suave considered CF when they make special use cosmetics such as deodorant
I honestly wish that people would broaden their definition of what constitutes cruelty. So many brands being pushed that are not inclusive and ones that treat employees like crap. Are animals important? Yes. But what about people? Employees deserve to be treated fairly and marginalized groups should be able to have equitable access to products that match their skin tone, are accessible and meet their specific needs as well.
Maybe if companies were transparent and state how many cases of post animal testing was conducted we as consumers could actually have a better understanding of this.
I consider the social justice and racial equality aspect to be most important when purchasing. I don’t purchase from Wet n Wild or Physicians Formula, not because of their cruelty free status but because of their lack of shade range. Meanwhile I happily buy Mac and other ‘cruel’ brands since they cater to all skin tones.
Is it okay when Maybelline claims they do not support animal testing, but only if it is required by their distributors? This is very confusing! L'Oreal and Revlon also have the same stance. There is also the issue of vegan products that are not labeled cruelty-free, which is even more confusing.
It depends on how true the early stage tester program china/peta/cruelty free kitty had said has been in works for years now is if its true than most of these brands have BEEN "cruelty free" because the only thing making them not was chinas pre/post market testing laws saying if a recall possibly happen they would need to look into these laws also it divided folks on how often that could happen to be a worry. Yes Revlon is one of them they were truly cruelty free and got it "taken away" because of selling in the chinese market these new law/s could mean they,nars,sally hansen etc... are possibly CF again which is why suave,aussie,simple are back to CF only time will tell.
When in doubt, you with your gut feeling and that's a good choice to trust. :) The thing that matters is that you have given the topic thought as opposed to mindlessly consuming everything the market has to offer without any critical thinking as to how the products have been sourced in the first place. We can give ourselves such a hard time but the time you invest in something (i.e. hours of in depth research in this case) has to be in proportion of what you want to achieve. I am personally not willing to invest hours of my valuable time into deep diving so I trust others that give me the impression that they do.
In the EU it's technically illegal to have 'not tested on animals' on the comestic product. Animal testing is prohibited under EU law for cosmetics and companies aren't allowed to market a legal requirement as a selling point. I have seen products with leaping bunny logo etc in the shops here and I'm not well versed in legality so I'm unsure what exactly cosmetics entail if it's just makeup or is skincare included etc
I have tried trying to be 100% cruelty free, but it is impossible personally. My country doesn't really have all the products in Cruelty Free Kitty website and it's not possible for me to solely spend my money in cruelty freeness. So I have to make rules for myself. To be cruelty free as best as I can that doesn't give me headaches. So now I mainly use local products that claim to be cruelty free, because I definitely still used "no selling in China" as a rule. Local products are less likely to be sold in China. The rest will be the affordable and accessible ones in Cruelty Free Kitty website (I have explored other websites and sometimes they say different things, so I settle on only one resource, cuz if I have to consider all those websites, it will give me massive headaches (I did get headaches when I transitioned from all or nothing mindset to "my rules" mindset, I'm stubborn, it's hard to change mindsets, mindset changes always give me headaches)).
I think we just have to do the best we can do realistically.
The fact that there is even a possibility of animal testing because of an allergy is ridiculous. If fragrance was removed from makeup that could potentially alleviate majority of issues.
This was a very thoughtful video. I've been thinking along those same lines as well. In fact I recently bought the new Wet and Wild clarifying powder in the white Packaging. It's fantastic. I can't believe the price point. I'll be glad to see more of these brands on your Channel. I love how your loook turned out by the way. How do you like the quality of the wet and wild eyeshadows? You have so many high-end ones to compare to.
You could watch Maiike's (youtube: Floating in Dreams) tee chat video about cruelty free makeup. She makes some good points :).
I think were all just trying our best and our personalities play a lot into that some people are just more lax as long a s peta says its good its good while others are very very VERY strict wont eat at a restaurant unless its fully vegan/only buys from fully vegan brands and gets upset at "CF" label its a lot too try to follow along and figure out :/
Very interesting information in this video!
If you were to look into the real history of makeup. Didn't I come from bugs and amamials. I mean, don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that's how makeup was started. It was also used to protect people from the outside elements.
While I prefer animals to not be chemically burned and what not just simply so I can have a pretty sparkly eyeshadow or something, I also agree that there is so much more cruelty to think about. I buy products not tested on animals for the most part. I also look at brand owners.. if they are labeled as cruelty free, I don't care because if they are a trash brand or have a horrible owner, looking at you ABH, then I'm not buying from them. Same with Kylie. She's cruelty free but takes 4 minute flights to go shopping. That's worse to me and bad enough to not buy from them. So I mostly just now look at morals and who actually is benefitting my actual hard earned dollar
I live in Hong Kong. I’m trying to buy more cruelty free products. I see cruelty free websites as a guideline for purchasing. I read some articles said there are some ways to replace animals testing. Beside animal testing, I also care how a brand treats their customers and such. Also I don’t understand why there are some rumour about cruelty free is anti China or try to attack China.
I totally agree it is a confusing topic with different sources having different stances. That said I am also not inclined to believe the Chinese government given they are a communist country and their other political policies. For example, it is my understanding that dog meat markets are "against the law" however that law is not enforced. It's a personal choice that all consumers need to make per their conscience. Personally I will continue to put my money to companies that do not sell in China. I only hope things are more clear soon and animal testing becomes a thing of the distance past!
Would love a video of full face multipurpose what you can.
💜💚💙💜💚💙
I *love* your nuanced, considered, and heartfelt take on this issue. Thank you.
What are your views on Cruelty free brands that use carmine (crushed up bugs) in their products? I find it difficult for them to say they're cruelty free when they're killing bugs. They're not testing on animals, but bug murder seems cruel. I hate bugs, but I don't want them killed for makeup. 🤷♀️🤷♀️🤷♀️
Do not buy any russian brand is very "cruelty free" for me
You should take these videos down. You know the information is factually incorrect at this point and it’s irresponsible to continue to tell misinformation about leaping bunny. I will make sure they are aware. People are on Reddit still spreading your bad info.
i think the lack of clarity about China's post-market testing policy is enough to make the decision to not buy. I feel like I'd be selling out by giving in and buying these products. Other jurisdictions (South korea, EU countries) have such clear policies that I feel comfortable buying from the brands that sell there in opposition to sell in China. I appreciate you being transparent about your reduced priority of animal testing and while I've enjoyed your content over the past few years, I will be unsubscribing now.
Products are still tested in the US and I've read they still test in the EU.
Sorry I should have been clearer: I buy from cruelty free companies in those places. And no since 2016(I think but not completely sure) Europe has banned testing new cosmetics on animals (with some exceptions). South Korea has banned recently. These policies make it easier for me to believe that a company saying it’s cruelty free and certified as cruelty free by an external accreditation system is actually not testing on animals. Whereas for many other places (including my own country) animal testing laws are vague and Unenforced. So since I cannot understand the policy of China due to all these ambiguities, I don’t believe cruelty free claims from companies that sell there.
I didn’t mean to make it sound like no cosmetic animal testing occurs in the US. Also for EU, I’ve just reread some of the clauses banning cosmetic animal testing it seems like it is still banned and labs can be fined for not abiding the regulations. But I will look into this in more detail again in case things have been changed or are not being enforced properly.
This is ridiculous, you know how many animal die when it comes to research regarding medicine??? I don't hear a peep out of people, they can care less when it comes to survival. My point is I don't think now days there is a need to test makeup in animals, we been progressing. Now, I'm not naïve and there is a lot of things that maybe happening in the background. But makeup is suppose to be fun and enjoyable. It's not suppose to be this deep! Enjoy the products wet n' wild has amazing things!!! 💛💛💛💛💛💛
It's not deep to you because of ur morals. Child labors being involved, animal testing, and unfair wages. Yeah, makeup is supposed to be "fun" but that's because you don't care about how it's being made. You'd care if that was ur child working ungodly amount of hours for terrible pay, if that was your cat being tested on , or if it were you getting paid $13 for a weeks worth of work.
@@katherinetanks632 I’m okay with my morals. They are in the right place. 🙂
@@Yolli.Maceda Everyone's morals are different..... if you say so
I’m not really educated enough on this issue but I would hope the brands that test on animals aren’t killing or hurting them. I’m assuming the translation of “cruelty free” could have been lost in translation as a way for companies to gain customer loyalty, and make people automatically think testing means hurting animals when it very well may not be the case. Again, I haven’t done enough research. Just a thought though.
I just found out animals do suffer, but since there has already been testing in the past and damage that’s been done, I think cruelty free is just a way for companies to sell us. I think they probably don’t need to test on animals anymore because it’s already been done with certain ingredients that are already approved before companies changed their status.
I think it could be kinda like how some brands say they are “clean beauty” to sell us when the reality is that some preservative ingredients aren’t inherently bad. They just may not be deemed as “natural”
I just saw a commercial of you on iHerb (I think.) Congrats!