Please do more like this! I learned more from this than I have learned all the other videos, that just pick a topic and show you how to do it. This really makes you think about hypothetical vs real results/consequences.
While I didn't disagree with anyone's points and definitely appreciate the outside-the-box thinking on display, this presentation came off as more of a literate vs internet-literate shout-down (internet was louder) instead of a refugium vs non-refugium argument or discussion. More Q&A time would have been nice. Thanks for posting!
Great video. I enjoy the interactions between advanced hobbyist. I hope there will be more friendly debates to come. After 18 in the hobby I crave more of this. :)
I personally run a barebottom refugium with Chaeto for nutrient export. Its a custom DIY build with an oversized main chamber for the chaeto in contrast to the intake and return chambers. I use a intense lighting with an output comparable to that of my display tank, if not greater. Allthought just recently i have decided to try something new and replaced my CFL bulb with a Hydroponic LED. Setting up a refugium literally ended my battle with cyanobacteria, which was originally my main motivation for getting one
Classic watching this debate. Especially since now in 2020 Jake is very pro refugium. Watched his Reef Builders video recently with him raving about his big cheato ball.
Do you know the name of the video Julian released in 1991/92? I'm trying to find some info about it. In particular, what the music is in the opening credits. Thanks.
This was a really interesting debate and has definitely given me some new perspective on the use of refugiums and what they ACTUALY accomplish. I personally have 2 refugiums in my system, one smaller bare bottom in the sump to grow chaeto and export nitrate which it does extremely well, I believe mostly due to the 3000k spectrum lighting I run. the other being a display refugium with soft corals and caulerpa, no sand bed. Both displays drain Into one sump and I do produce lots of pods. It does add a level of complexity that certainly isn't for everyone, especially the new hobbyist. But for me it was an excuse to setup another tank, something different and I really enjoy the contrast of refugium next to the display.
i think the most important thing to take away from the forum and both parties seem to agree is that most hobbyists have a misinterpretation of the benefits of utilizing a refugium. A lot think they can throw a little 10 gallon refugium on a 50 gallon and think that it's really helping. IMO it's another complicated thing to setup and maintain properly in which if you're trying to utilize one after the fact it means that your maintenance is already lacking somewhere and you're trying to add another thing to fall behind on.
Would have liked to hear something a little more professional and organized so I can truly hear what the opinions are, but nevertheless thanks for the debate. A good topic indeed for all us Oceanographers, Marine Biologists, and Aquarists out there.
Jake is a great guy but I wish he hadn't rushed lyng. Lyng has helped our hobby, much like Julian and Jake. His point of view would have obviously been bias but still important not the less. GREAT debate. Loved it. Thank you BRS for posting it for people like me that couldn't make MACNA.
I think it's important to realize that everyone is biased. "Obvious" may be a measure of ones honesty or other parameter, but everyone is biased - there is no "neutral". Leng and Julian are both obviously biased toward the methods they've developed as well as the businesses they've built upon them. How can we fault them for this? Jake has his...you and I have ours. :) It still would have been nice to hear more from Leng and the Q&A part in general....but time seemed pretty limited.
Leng Sy is a good friend but during a "Question & Answer" session he quickly turned to "commenting" on the Miracle Mud system specifically, and not refugiums generally.
NTACvOS I don't know about biased, I don't think Julian makes his living selling plants and mangroves, but he does sell reactors and bacteria for bio pellets. So I guess bias would be for him to encourage his products with the opposing argument. There is many ways to interpret what was said by Julian. He pretty much said everyone's tank has a refugium (safe haven) weather it be a pump, sump, pipe, or rock. I think the main point trying to get across here is why people go wrong with them. Often people cram every concept of a refugium in a tiny sump and expect it to work with a home depot lightbulb to grow some plants. It just doesn't work that way if your keeping tangs. Julian had a good point that mangroves need to get big before they make a noticeable dent. This is true, I had to grow mangroves for 1.5 years before they really benefited. The problem with reef keeping is people over stock so heavily that they outproduce their refugiums ability to work and often benefit better from carbon dosing systems. Jake had some great points about not over stocking and keeping things simple. I liked the debate there was no winner just some good information on what NOT to do. As far as leng goes, He has videos of side by side testing his products. I think he truly believes in his system for a hobbiest that does not want to fail and is looking for a low maintenance schedule. I have never tried MM personally but I have seen pictures of Krzysztof Tryc's tank using lengs method before he went to zeovit and it looked really nice. There's many ways to get it done. I think it comes down to what your stocking in your tank and how well are you able to service it on a weekly or monthly basis.
Excellent presentation! Especially the con side. I will still be making a sump for my aquarium, but I have rethought what I want to do with it and will be making it more purpose specific.
I use to have a large refugium with a dsb multiple decent sized mangroves reverse lighting schedule caulerpa chaeto etc. It did work well, fast growth under t5 5.5k lighting, but was never ultra low nutrient. Generally it was less than 5ppm nitrate. I converted to biopellets and then eventually zeovit method. The main thing I would point out on the oxygen debate, is that bacteria needed for a carbon dosed system will consume a lot of oxygen. I had much more stable pH running plants than running bacteria which consumed a higher volume of oxygen. You can dose alk or kalk but if your co2 is the source of the lower pH it will drop quickly and not hold for long. I had to inject a co2 scrubber media into my skimmer to boost my o2 to stabilize my pH again with all the bacteria filtering the water. With a refugium this was not needed.
Agreed, the moderator needs to practice his public presence along with his mannerisms. That might be too late since he is an older man. Refugiums add another step of maintenance. I'm 50/50 on implementing one- had mixed results.
Again, notice how fast knowledge accumulates. Now we know that a refugium tailored specifically to nitrate and phosphate reduction is effective at doing this, and it's volume need only be 10% of the main system's volume (Triton). However, this particular type of refugium will not be any good at releasing important trace elements and so forth--which is why they are dosed separately. But this was one of the main points developed, that a refugium has to be designed for particular purposes, and certain purposes are in conflict if implimented in the same tank. In addition, it can certainly be said that a Triton type of refugium does not add complexity really, it reduces it. But what of a new method called the Triton-Leng Method, which replaces trace element dosing with Miracle Mud in a separate, cryptic refugium that also raises amphipods and copepods with low light, low flow, and algae only the for harboring life? The idea that refugiums necessarily complicate reef keeping is odd.
I would love to see Jake address what Bulk Reef supply has studied about different par levels and how much nutrients were exported in there controlled studies. also, he is saying that refugiums add complication to a tank. there is nothing else that would do what a refugium does that adds less complication to a tank. every other month or so remove some caulerpa or chaeto and call it good. not complicated or hard.
What a KIND moderator. Who's he? "Good statement, but if wanted your opinion we'd have you on top" + "let me hear your question first... Anything else?(haha)" Makes me think of "if we wanted to see some bullying we'd have go to a high school, not MACNA." On the other hand, the debate made me rethink my sump 👍👍👍 thank you all for these videos
I get the impression that these guys and a lot of the audience have already known each other for a long time and that's why your getting a lot of ribbing and snide remarks.
Jake, you rocked this! You effectively called bullshit on many things. I personally run a refugium, but it's simply because it helps my nitrate levels and my nitrate levels are all I count on it for. I'm a huge Julian fan too. It was great to hear you guys discuss this and help others understand that a refugium is but one way to achieve a goal in keeping a fantastic reef. Thanks BRS for putting it up on your website!
I enjoy Jake's video reports but here he needs to not talk over and interrupt other people. As to refugium vs no-refugium I like refugiums but fortunately it is a free world so Jake doesn't have to have one. I've done tanks both ways. The pump issue is the biggest problem.
I'm a huge believer of refugium from what I've seen from my friends' tanks. Specifically for nano tank, a refugium could be the most effective filtration. But I can't keep my macro algae alive, so it's not for me.
Hey man liveaquaria, is very reliable source. I have bought thousands of dollars in SPS corals and fish from there and to this day, I have never received any fish with a disease or coral parasite like flat worms or red bugs. They take care of business. I still quarantined my livestock for 2 months from past experiences with other vendors, but they are the most reliable place I have dealt with in terms of livestock keeping and accurate general information.
Come on now, show some more respect! I organized all the speakers, the debate, and their recordings so it's because of me you even have these videos to comment on
Thank you for arranging it. Sorry to be harsh. I hope my point is made. I'm making a observation at your attitude and not how bad the organization of this dialogue. Again, sorry man to let you feel bad.
+webber555 Agreed, the moderator needs to practice his public presence along with his mannerisms. That might be too late since he is an older man. Refugiums add another step of maintenance. I'm 50/50 on implementing one.
![Wolfram Physics Project: Working Session Wednesday, Apr. 29, 2020 [Finding Black Hole Structures]](/img/n.gif)
Please do more like this! I learned more from this than I have learned all the other videos, that just pick a topic and show you how to do it. This really makes you think about hypothetical vs real results/consequences.
While I didn't disagree with anyone's points and definitely appreciate the outside-the-box thinking on display, this presentation came off as more of a literate vs internet-literate shout-down (internet was louder) instead of a refugium vs non-refugium argument or discussion. More Q&A time would have been nice.
Thanks for posting!
Exactly.
Nice talk! The waterfall algae scrubbers remind me of 2008 when I created them; those were fun days :)
Great video. I enjoy the interactions between advanced hobbyist. I hope there will be more friendly debates to come. After 18 in the hobby I crave more of this. :)
I personally run a barebottom refugium with Chaeto for nutrient export.
Its a custom DIY build with an oversized main chamber for the chaeto in contrast to the intake and return chambers. I use a intense lighting with an output comparable to that of my display tank, if not greater. Allthought just recently i have decided to try something new and replaced my CFL bulb with a Hydroponic LED.
Setting up a refugium literally ended my battle with cyanobacteria, which was originally my main motivation for getting one
Classic watching this debate. Especially since now in 2020 Jake is very pro refugium. Watched his Reef Builders video recently with him raving about his big cheato ball.
I don't think he is pro refugium, he has an algae scrubber. Two very different things i'd say.
Do you know the name of the video Julian released in 1991/92? I'm trying
to find some info about it. In particular, what the music is in the
opening credits. Thanks.
As always Julian is a wealth of knowledge.
I think Julian did a great job of not visibly cringing.......too badly :-D
This was a really interesting debate and has definitely given me some new perspective on the use of refugiums and what they ACTUALY accomplish. I personally have 2 refugiums in my system, one smaller bare bottom in the sump to grow chaeto and export nitrate which it does extremely well, I believe mostly due to the 3000k spectrum lighting I run. the other being a display refugium with soft corals and caulerpa, no sand bed. Both displays drain Into one sump and I do produce lots of pods. It does add a level of complexity that certainly isn't for everyone, especially the new hobbyist. But for me it was an excuse to setup another tank, something different and I really enjoy the contrast of refugium next to the display.
i think the most important thing to take away from the forum and both parties seem to agree is that most hobbyists have a misinterpretation of the benefits of utilizing a refugium. A lot think they can throw a little 10 gallon refugium on a 50 gallon and think that it's really helping. IMO it's another complicated thing to setup and maintain properly in which if you're trying to utilize one after the fact it means that your maintenance is already lacking somewhere and you're trying to add another thing to fall behind on.
Would have liked to hear something a little more professional and organized so I can truly hear what the opinions are, but nevertheless thanks for the debate. A good topic indeed for all us Oceanographers, Marine Biologists, and Aquarists out there.
Marine Pure is a great refugium you can put in the tank or sump.
Jake is a great guy but I wish he hadn't rushed lyng. Lyng has helped our hobby, much like Julian and Jake. His point of view would have obviously been bias but still important not the less.
GREAT debate. Loved it. Thank you BRS for posting it for people like me that couldn't make MACNA.
I think it's important to realize that everyone is biased. "Obvious" may be a measure of ones honesty or other parameter, but everyone is biased - there is no "neutral". Leng and Julian are both obviously biased toward the methods they've developed as well as the businesses they've built upon them. How can we fault them for this? Jake has his...you and I have ours. :)
It still would have been nice to hear more from Leng and the Q&A part in general....but time seemed pretty limited.
Leng Sy is a good friend but during a "Question & Answer" session he quickly turned to "commenting" on the Miracle Mud system specifically, and not refugiums generally.
NTACvOS I don't know about biased, I don't think Julian makes his living selling plants and mangroves, but he does sell reactors and bacteria for bio pellets. So I guess bias would be for him to encourage his products with the opposing argument. There is many ways to interpret what was said by Julian. He pretty much said everyone's tank has a refugium (safe haven) weather it be a pump, sump, pipe, or rock. I think the main point trying to get across here is why people go wrong with them. Often people cram every concept of a refugium in a tiny sump and expect it to work with a home depot lightbulb to grow some plants. It just doesn't work that way if your keeping tangs. Julian had a good point that mangroves need to get big before they make a noticeable dent. This is true, I had to grow mangroves for 1.5 years before they really benefited. The problem with reef keeping is people over stock so heavily that they outproduce their refugiums ability to work and often benefit better from carbon dosing systems. Jake had some great points about not over stocking and keeping things simple. I liked the debate there was no winner just some good information on what NOT to do. As far as leng goes, He has videos of side by side testing his products. I think he truly believes in his system for a hobbiest that does not want to fail and is looking for a low maintenance schedule. I have never tried MM personally but I have seen pictures of Krzysztof Tryc's tank using lengs method before he went to zeovit and it looked really nice. There's many ways to get it done. I think it comes down to what your stocking in your tank and how well are you able to service it on a weekly or monthly basis.
I came here to comment on Jake but these comments are everything I had hoped for
Good debate but I think I'm very much still pro refugium.
Excellent presentation! Especially the con side. I will still be making a sump for my aquarium, but I have rethought what I want to do with it and will be making it more purpose specific.
I use to have a large refugium with a dsb multiple decent sized mangroves reverse lighting schedule caulerpa chaeto etc. It did work well, fast growth under t5 5.5k lighting, but was never ultra low nutrient. Generally it was less than 5ppm nitrate. I converted to biopellets and then eventually zeovit method. The main thing I would point out on the oxygen debate, is that bacteria needed for a carbon dosed system will consume a lot of oxygen. I had much more stable pH running plants than running bacteria which consumed a higher volume of oxygen. You can dose alk or kalk but if your co2 is the source of the lower pH it will drop quickly and not hold for long. I had to inject a co2 scrubber media into my skimmer to boost my o2 to stabilize my pH again with all the bacteria filtering the water. With a refugium this was not needed.
Agreed, the moderator needs to practice his public presence along with his mannerisms. That might be too late since he is an older man.
Refugiums add another step of maintenance. I'm 50/50 on implementing one- had mixed results.
Again, notice how fast knowledge accumulates. Now we know that a refugium tailored specifically to nitrate and phosphate reduction is effective at doing this, and it's volume need only be 10% of the main system's volume (Triton). However, this particular type of refugium will not be any good at releasing important trace elements and so forth--which is why they are dosed separately.
But this was one of the main points developed, that a refugium has to be designed for particular purposes, and certain purposes are in conflict if implimented in the same tank.
In addition, it can certainly be said that a Triton type of refugium does not add complexity really, it reduces it.
But what of a new method called the Triton-Leng Method, which replaces trace element dosing with Miracle Mud in a separate, cryptic refugium that also raises amphipods and copepods with low light, low flow, and algae only the for harboring life?
The idea that refugiums necessarily complicate reef keeping is odd.
Yes the pods/microbes that macroalgae grows is amazing, just like a real reef :)
I would love to see Jake address what Bulk Reef supply has studied about different par levels and how much nutrients were exported in there controlled studies. also, he is saying that refugiums add complication to a tank. there is nothing else that would do what a refugium does that adds less complication to a tank. every other month or so remove some caulerpa or chaeto and call it good. not complicated or hard.
Have you ever done a refugium only system with no skimmer?
@@BRStv Have you ever done a refugium only system with no skimmer?
Would be great to have one-hour talks like this posted more often.
What a KIND moderator. Who's he?
"Good statement, but if wanted your opinion we'd have you on top" + "let me hear your question first... Anything else?(haha)"
Makes me think of "if we wanted to see some bullying we'd have go to a high school, not MACNA."
On the other hand, the debate made me rethink my sump 👍👍👍 thank you all for these videos
Yeah, he's about the only negative in the video.
I get the impression that these guys and a lot of the audience have already known each other for a long time and that's why your getting a lot of ribbing and snide remarks.
Jake, you rocked this! You effectively called bullshit on many things. I personally run a refugium, but it's simply because it helps my nitrate levels and my nitrate levels are all I count on it for. I'm a huge Julian fan too. It was great to hear you guys discuss this and help others understand that a refugium is but one way to achieve a goal in keeping a fantastic reef. Thanks BRS for putting it up on your website!
Anyone have any experience just running a refugium, I want to try it on a reefer 250 and have no skimmer what do you think?
@@BRStv thanks for the reply!
I enjoy Jake's video reports but here he needs to not talk over and interrupt other people.
As to refugium vs no-refugium I like refugiums but fortunately it is a free world so Jake doesn't have to have one. I've done tanks both ways.
The pump issue is the biggest problem.
Have you ever done a refugium only system with no skimmer?
I'm a huge believer of refugium from what I've seen from my friends' tanks. Specifically for nano tank, a refugium could be the most effective filtration. But I can't keep my macro algae alive, so it's not for me.
Have you ever done a refugium only system with no skimmer?
Jake got his facts from liveaquaria...
I got the most common bullet points from LA, but the "facts" are just my observations.
Hey man liveaquaria, is very reliable source. I have bought thousands of dollars in SPS corals and fish from there and to this day, I have never received any fish with a disease or coral parasite like flat worms or red bugs. They take care of business. I still quarantined my livestock for 2 months from past experiences with other vendors, but they are the most reliable place I have dealt with in terms of livestock keeping and accurate general information.
The bio balls are cock blocking the protein skimmer just amazing!
I have no respect for Jake. The way he carries himself and went about it was super douchy. Can't stand him...
What, you must mean mitch?
45:55 I, personally, took more from this 2 minutes than the entire debate.
I like how he just shooed off the creator of the the technique. Stay classy, Jake.
Jackup is so annoying.
Agree with Julian.
Come on now, show some more respect! I organized all the speakers, the debate, and their recordings so it's because of me you even have these videos to comment on
Thank you for arranging it. Sorry to be harsh. I hope my point is made. I'm making a observation at your attitude and not how bad the organization of this dialogue.
Again, sorry man to let you feel bad.
WTF bro!?!?
@@ReefBuildersVideo for such a big name to be responding to hate comments 😩
jake was saucing up lol
👍👍👍👍👍
Chewbacca Adams
Slightly racist at the beginning... Some interesting points raised though.
+webber555
Agreed, the moderator needs to practice his public presence along with his mannerisms. That might be too late since he is an older man.
Refugiums add another step of maintenance. I'm 50/50 on implementing one.
Jason Scully I enjoyed the beginning. Guess I'm racist.