Loved Richard's piece on the 230 battery train, having been involved in a big way with this project in the early days and helping Adrian and Vivarail deliver the different fleets, it's great to see the fast charge vision finally rolled out.
I cannot understand why they used 230 001 which was already a completed DEMU bit of a waste of money stripping it down. I wonder why they didn't use anconverted D78 there used to be great number stored at Long Marsden is that still the case?
@@paulroberts9570 in part because it had been fitted out with a crash resistant front end. The Ford Turbo Diesel was installed as a complete module so easy to remove. Thus keeping the bodywork reduced costs.
Yes, thanks for Adrian’s mention. He and I had a day, pretending to be average customers, timing the DMU runs to determine potential point to point with battery level acceleration. We came to the conclusion that we could squeeze enough time to allow fast charge to work. Good to see that it does.
I think the main problem is that the top railway manager at the time of the now infamous article, instead of actually fixing Euston, allegedly tried to get the person highlighting the already widely known issues sacked by threatening his now former employer like some kind of mob boss. After the mafia like conduct was made public, Network Rail still decided to deflect any arguments that Euston was a problem. Add that to Hendy's mob boss conduct, it has sadly now made it a political problem. Haigh also just needs to sack Hendy.
0:51 "The biggest decision is what we don't talk about" Such as any mention of the Rail Minister and former Chairman of Network Rail, Lord Hendy relating to London Euston? Or is he the "somebody at the top of the industry that should have owned this" that Richard refers to? Blink twice if under duress
A few basic ideas for Euston: 1.) Go back to allowing customers for local/suburban services to wait on the platforms (either overall, or during periods of overall disruption) to reduce the crowding of the concourse 2.) Make it VERY CLEAR to customers that a minimum of 10 mins boarding time will be provided for intercity trains, regardless of when they are called for boarding 3.) Remove some of the cluttering retain units to widen the ped-flow routes around the platform entrances 4.) Address the platforming arrangements to minimise the number of times a succession of trains arrive/depart from the same group of platforms within a 5-min period 5.) Put the intercity departures up on the main screens and provide useful information in a manner that does not require ‘scrolling’. Display the suburban services on the smaller monitors.
I'm old enough to have travelled on the battery train which ran between Aberdeen and Ballater in the 1950s. (I also remember the slightly scary charging equipment at Aberdeen station!) It was an interesting experiment although it suffered various issues including lack of flexibility and in later years dubious reliability. That said it was quiet, comfortable and much cheaper to run than a dmu and it certainly wasn't a failure. I've always been surprised that it has taken until now for battery power to be taken properly seriously on the railway.
@@davebarclay4429 it was built on the same principle of milk floats; using lead-acid batteries. They needed a long overnight period with which to recharge. Not much different from home charging on EVs best done overnight.
Another hugely enjoyable podcast, and thank you all for everything that you do to bring these podcasts to us. Happy first birthday too! I was amused to hear your mention of Daisyfield Junction in Blackburn. Living locally, I can confirm that I'm with you on that one - it isn't even remotely like the name suggests! Here's a bit of additional and completely useless information for you. In addition to the area called Daisyfield, there is also an area at the opposite side of town, called Davyfield, which is a large industrial estate close to junctions 4 and 5 of the M65 motorway. Visitors to Blackburn often get the two confused - understandably!
Many thanks for another show packed with interesting and important stuff. So glad you featured Roger Ford's hard-hitting piece about freight costs, and Tim Shoveller's activities to mitigate that problem. Great to get the detail about the issues re GWR's battery fast-charging: I've always had a soft spot for the Greenford branch, having travelled on it in my extreme youth behind steam (I assume a 14XX 0-4-2). I was shocked to find out (Riku Fryderick's recent youtube video) that since the service stopped running through to Paddington, passenger numbers have dropped like a stone. This shows massive suppressed demand, put off by the necessary change on to the Elizabeth line at West Ealing. Probably the problem is coming back from London - miss the connection and it's half an hour to wait. Your video shows the new trains being tested while the existing service is running, indicating a 15 minute service is possible - which might recover those lost passengers!
Yes, although we had to wait 15 minutes at South Greenford for the Networker Turbo to clear the single line at LUL Bay Junction. I haven't sat down with any graph paper but I doubt a 15 minute service is possible given the single track bits at both ends (and the conflicts casued by a great deal of freight - which is good in itself by the way!) I think it's fair to say that the economic benefits of the Elizabeth Line far, far exceed the lost economic benefits of a relatively small number of passengers on the Greenford branch.
@@GreenSignals Very many thanks for replying in detail. I actually tried it on a spreadsheet, and you are right that a 15-minute service wouldn't work. A 10-minute service would work (trains passing just N of Drayton Gn and just S of S.Greenford) - but your point about freight trains applies. I do think that the general issue of suppressed demand due to half-hourly rail services in outer London should be addressed: after all if you are on a tube line you will get a real turn-up-and-go service, while if you live on, say, the Chessington or Shepperton lines you only get half-hourly.
I did enjoy Thursday’s episode. So varied and interesting and informative. Thinking of names and not wishing to offend anyone living there, Flowery Field on the Manchester to Glossop line struck me as pretty grim when going through the station. Especially on a wet day in November!
Loved the piece on the battery train, well done. It was also great to see my old boss Simon being interviewed. West Ealing will always hold a special place in my heart. My dad grew up in one of the houses on Manor Road, seen in the background of a number of shots. He recounted many times of enjoying watching GW steam trains from his house and also regularly stood on the footbridge (known locally as Jacob's Ladder) which spanned the mainline - used for one of the departure shots of the 230 from West Ealing, on a dull day. Dad remembered seeing wagons being shunted in the dock platform - where the battery charging cabins are now. He unfortunately passed away over 25 years ago. He would be amazed to see how it has changed from his days there in the 1930s.
Happy anniversary folks! I see some commenters saying the battery electric trains are a ploy to avoid electrification but I assume there are some lines that it'll never be economic to electrify and even so having these vehicles running now reduces fossil fuel use and doesn't preclude full electrification at a later date. Great show as always.
With respect to Euston, it seems that the SoS got involved precisely because the industry leadership we've been looking to seem to be standing around at best like ducks in thunder, or at worst, paralysed by something - be it fear of doing the wrong thing, or the simple lack of autonomy to make the needed changes. The leaders who have dithered and potentially pointed fingers at each other, either they are lazy, incompetent, or simply do not think that they are in charge. If it's the latter, then the system is more broken than we can imagine, as it's effectively disempowering the leadership. Which is it? So, the SoS has banged heads together and now we've got our 5-point "Operational Railway Management 101" get-well plan. I agree entirely that it's shameful the SoS had to get involved here.
Enjoyed the battery train section. Learnt a lot about the temperature needs of the batteries to extend life. Of course needs good maintenance to avoid temperature issues. We don't want any fires! Euston seems to be a victim of industry fragmentation over time and needs radical management focus. Agree GBR structure needs fast tracking urgently so we can see what scope it will have and how it operates. No wonder freight has trouble with costs when road costs keep going down. Expect gov to do something here. Hope to see the full video soon. Happy birthday to all at green signals from one of your first subscribers! Finally i believe the BOG you mentioned stands for "boundary of grangemouth" rather than a big puddle!
Happy 1st birthday, Green Signals! Another interesting and informative programme. And confirming once again the economics that have lead to the difficulties of level pricing transport of goods by rail against road transport. Never mind about carbon emissions, and Green investment.
With regard to Euston in particular. I ask the question that maybe due to the reduced frequency of Avanti train services (irrespective of why) that greater number are building up at Euston and not being cleared by a higher frequency of trains that were planned such as the 3 Birmingham trains per hour and an hourly Chester. Secondly, when there is an event which affects the running of trains at say Leighton Buzzard that even no local services run at all out of Euston. All train crews for WMR / LNR are based at mainly Bletchley or at Northampton but they are non-London based crews. Yes this was mainly down to costs as I seem to remember but having at least some crews being based at Euston could mean that at least a service could be run from Euston to say Hemel to again move some passengers off the concourse to at least these two busy stations. Just my thoughts but I think these could be some reasons or mitigation., looking forward. NB Huge congrats to all at Green Signals for your first anniversary, apologies as I have been busy and taken my attention elsewhere and I must get round to being a member of some sort!
To both of you Nigel and Richard when you think of the environmental benefit of 70% and 95% as you both mentioned of freight by rail and not road, add that to what I said of the VHF timetable that also use of electric locos made that Winsford / Lockerbie and Winsford / Tebay issue hugely shows the capacity benefits that electric haulage brings to any line of route.
Absolutely Simon. I will never forget that comparative analysis you mentioned of the 90 coming over Beattock and down Shap. You will enjoy our interview with Tim Shoveller next week - he uses almost exactly the same analogy.
In the light of your excellent piece on the GW experiment with battery trains on the Greenford branch (especially the comments about use on longer journeys) I don't think you've covered the recently published proposal to provide a mix of third rail and battery power on the West of England main land between Basingstoke and Exeter. Look forward to something on this in due course!
Good idea to get Patchway/Chippenham to Bristol TM wired. Battery emus could then be used on Filton shuttles and the Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour service. Class 350/2's if they could get fitted with batteries and 3rd rail shoes along with new seating layout like the 350/1 etc they'd be pretty good
It’s interesting to see the former Viva Rail 230’s being used for something slightly different once again. Absolutely fascinating. I wonder if LNWR will start hiring from GWR, for the Marston Vale until East/West Rail comes along. Speaking of which, I think East/West is something hugely overlooked in the media, when compared to Crossrail and HS2. I can’t believe how determined they are to take the route through Bedford station, when it’s going to require total reconstruction of the station, as well as taking through passengers WELL out of their way. Something else to consider; The people in the new housing estates south of Bedford (Wixhams?) were promised a station for Thameslink. Why aren’t the EWR people drawing their alignment from Millbrook, then building a combined, Tamworth-style station, with East/West punching under the Midland and out to Sandy (where they’ve also struggled to define a path for the line). It seems absolutely absurd to me that they can’t see this obvious solution. Would they really prefer to spend unnecessary millions to completely rebuild Bedford station and depot? Just something for Green Signals to consider covering…
Used Euston last December when I couldn’t get a cheap ticket to Birmingham as I usually do. I like the station but was disappointed to see the new small sideways facing departure screens having replaced the large one over the platform entrances. The previous location, used by two generations of Solari boards and the LED displays works well, the new ones do not. Reminds me somewhat of the infamous plasma screens which were installed at Waterloo, which were replaced by new ones were the old Solari boards had been, and the same position as even the old wooden flap boards had been before them. I was recently in Bradford for a few days, and on one day took a trip to Manchester. Arrived at Manchester Victoria as large crowds were arriving on the station concourse having come out from an event at the arena. New toilets were provided at the station a few years ago, I can’t remember exactly when, but the arena was there at that time. I had to queue for a while to get into the gents, but the situation with the ladies facilities was ridiculous. The queue came out of the roiled room itself, through the outer lobby area, out onto the concourse for some distance. I could see probably see about 60 women in the queuing, not including those who had managed to reach the toilet room itself. How can such totally inadequate facilities be considered acceptable? There are also log queues to be seen outside the ladies facilities at London Bridge, though at least additional toilets are now being built there. At Bradford Interchange there are now no toilets due to the closure of the bus station and lower concourse. These have been closed since January and are not now expected to re-open until next January at the earliest. No temporary facilities have been provided At Stratford there are toilets, but the entrance is hidden away under a staircase and difficult to find. The facilities are very often closed, and when open are quite inadequate for such a large station, served by many trains which do not have toilets. These facilities are not a luxury, they are a necessity. Oddly, the ones at Euston do seem to be quite good to me.
Here is a solution. Why don't train builders and ASLEF collaborate to design a train that is modern but meets the requirements for ASLEF's needs? It would avoid issues like this.
Used to work for an airline and if a new aircraft type arrived, everyone was enthusiastic, all air and ground staff trained and the plane was in revenue service in days. Striking differences with railways. It's no wonder that governments have doubts about spending more money on trains.
I worked for an airline a well for a while (admittedly as a non exec) and I do recall a rather large amount of time spent on r&d and testing before anything arrived "in days". I agree there was a great deal of anticipation for any new plane coming into service though!
They want action taken at Euston but now indulge in extended hand-wringing because the SoS has got involved to bang some heads together? The coverage of this issue continues to be quite peculiar.
Bit weird in my opinion to constantly call for someone to take charge and then complain when the Secretary of State (the passenger in chief and representative of the people) gets involved to give Network rail a kick up the arse to do something after clearly failing for years is rather strange especially when you consider currently no one actually is in charge and that time and time again the industry simply fails to do the bare minimum until they're forced into it. Furthermore this is clearly a one off to show she's serious especially in a climate of bad headlines and I think the criticism only comes from Nigels pathological libertarianism
@@GreenSignals the same evidence that this is indicative of future behaviour (nothing, as it’s too early to tell) it’s a reasonable assumption that the Secretary of State who has made a big deal out of being the passenger in chief and moving fast to fix things in her own words would step in harshly but ultimately symbolically to demonstrate her commitment especially as it’s an easy good headline when the current government is beset by bad headlines I just think it’s poor judgment to see this in a solely negative light
Nigel, I wouldn’t call it a five point plan, I would call it the setting of tasks / milestones which are integral to achieving a safe station at all times. Separate - run in parallel - but determined granularly with the SoS reviewing the solution before it becoming business as usual SOP (I.e. issue never closed). Richard, I continue to be perplexed in regard to your reluctance to hold those Euston people accountable. You keep mentioning it is a difficult challenge and failing thrice does not perplex you. In your role at Virgin, what elements, if any, did you fail to resolve four times in a row without ever becoming accountable and are still proud of? Re; the question, is cut and fill still a bore? It’s definitely a tunnel which would include many large multi-platform station approaches. Phil. 🙀😱
Phil. I said very clearly this week (and indeed I see I have been quoted by the BBC saying the same thing) that whilst there may be a plan for Euston it would not appear to be being effectively implemented at times and someone needs to own it / sort it. Since the the lead Dutyholder at Euston is Network Rail because it is their station, that means Network Rail. Re the question, I personally don't think cut / fill is a bore. But I accept it is still a tunnel.
The wrong type of snow, the wrong type of ice, the wrong type of hot weather (we do have heatwaves sometimes), the wrong type of leaves on the line, think flooding is classified as the wrong levels of rainfall. Windscreen wipers, from a safety perspective, a drivers field of vision should be as good as practically possible, 1 000's of commuters lives ultimately depend upon this regardless of APT AND TPWS. That as said this does read a bit like a script from Yes Prime Minister.
The GWR battery train was interesting to hear about but I think it's a gimmick that lets government and the rail industry off the hook for investing in electrification, furthermore I think abandoning diesel is foolish when the country doesn't have energy security, in fact if you look at National Grid live we consume 5GW more than we produce and thus clean diesel should be kept as an emergency backup
We need to wean ourselves off oil and gas and stop giving money to OPEC who do not share the same values as ours. Green Hydrogen and Electrification is the way forward. We need to look at China as to how it is now successfully importing less oil from OPEC
Regarding the comment on the 17.38 kings X to Sunderland service and the national conditions of carriage I will be very interested to see the response the points you raised However the train won't be classed as cancelled only part cancelled as it's starting at Doncaster. I fail to see how you could catch an earlier GC service to Doncaster to connect if you've been working all day without the use of a time machine
In terms of someone taking control of Euston, the problem is that if someone were to own up to taking responsibility, they might then have to accept the consequences when the 'strategy' fails to deliver to the reuqired level. The buck never appears to stop with those in charge and there are no consequences.
Seconded… this really made my blood boil. Have we learned nothing from the “Great Post-Office Scandal” about the folly of allowing companies to pursue private prosecutions?
Whilst is good, it however seems to me to be the typical, British problem of sticking plaster to solve the fact that the wires not gone up for electrification. Surely the correct solution is to electrify the network and then just use standard units.
Nope, the eventual solution will be batteries in every train. EV cars have decreased the price of traction motors by about a factor of 10 and fitting a full Tesla power pack per car will set you back about 0.1% of the cost of a typical £1.5 million rail coach. The pay off is that you can now make EMUs accelerate about 2-3 times faster than when they are restricted by the wires, you can plow through interruptions in the wire and range hundreds of miles off the wires per day. Also depots don't need to be wired.
If you look at putting an EV battery into the 14 tonnes of weight allocated to the diesel engine and fuel on board a 5 car class 800 train then you could put 18,000 hp into that train and accelerate at the traction/passenger comfort limit pretty much all the way to top speed. On high speed railway lines it means that you can hit 300 KPH in 7km. Essentially making it possible to run a high speed line like a . metro.
Switzerland, by and large has a standard 15 Kv 16 2/3 Hz over head system. Some exceptions to this for example the Bernina route, however Switzerland operates both standard gauge and metre gauge trains and within each different loading gauges often occur.. Outside of Merseyside, London, Manchester and Tyneside idealistically this should happen and implemented in a cost efficient manner but that's probably for the next generation or the one after that to figure out.
Interesting to hear that they are using LTO batteries (Titanate anode) that allow very high charging currents and promise over 20000 charging cycles. This is definitely the right choice for this application. However, this type of battery is not used in standard electric cars, as car batteries (NMC/NMA/LFP) are optimtmzied for higher capacity and smaller size. Very high braking and charging capability is not required for cars. I whish this project a brillant future.
Was hoping that SWR would also allow the new Class 701s to enter service on the Chessington South, Hampton Court and circular routes before the end of this year.
Excellent show as always, chaps & Stef. And happy anniversary. Regarding freight on the railways, I fear for its future. Road transport has started the transition to de-carbonisation, and the huge opportunity that the "carbon advantage" rail has had will rapidly diminish. This will stifle both public and private investment, as the environmental benefits of using rail for freight disappears. The same threat - to a lesser extent - exists for passenger traffic, as cars "go green". I hope I'm wrong.
I rather hope you are wrong too Stephen, though you may not feel much better when you hear Tim Shoveller's excellent interview next week. The odds do seem somewhat stacked against freight, although Tim's Track Access Credit plan which he has pushed through with Network Rail will help.
Hmmm, according to released stats it's charging at about 4 C which is good but its about the same as a model 3 charging at a max of 300KW when it can charge at 250kW There are some cars which can already sustain a 4 C charge rate on LFP batteries they don't have to go with something a niche as titanate batteries. I suspect that if they were properly funded they'd have gone down the LFP route.
Interesting interviews about the battery unit, hearing the engineer talking about batteries being limited to branch lines and the need for OHLE, and then the director talking about "islands of electrification" - i.e. no prospect of significant extension of OHLE. They can't both be right, and I know who I'd trust.
Their appointment needs to be approved by the Board yes, but a Chair-Elect and CEO-Elect can be nominated prior to that and in any order. The appointment of the Chair will also need to be noted by the Board but since there isn't a Board (and indeed even a legal entity) the current Chair nominee must be just that. A CEO nominee could be the same.
Battery trains would be very welcome at New Street Station in Birmingham. I have not been for a while but the smell of diesel fumes was horrendous when I was last there. My car is subject to the ULEZ charge should I drive into Birmingham, I contacted Birmingham Council about the diesel trains and was told they did not count in their air pollution calculation which is completely mad. Tesla are intending to roll out what we would call electric articulated lorries on mass in the not so distant future therefore I cannot see why battery powered trains on some routes is not a very viable option.
@@GreenSignals Trains seem perfectly suited to a mixture of taking electric from a third rail or overhead. With batteries onboard a train you would not have to electrify the whole line, but say 20% (Than number is a total guess). That would massively reduce the cost of electrifying the network. This idea is being tested in Europe & the UK to study using overhead wires to power long-haul trucks. Same idea different application.
Happy Anniversary. Big question to the train industry at large. Why is there not more attention given to aerodynamics to reduce the amount energy consumed ? Some of these trains have the aerodynamics of a brick ! It has been proven in the cycling world that Aeordynamics trumps Weight starting at 15kmh (almost all trains go faster than that), meaning that even if you add marginal weight to improve aeordynamics, you'll go faster with less energy, why the train industry doesn't do more on that side ? For instance looking at that battery train at the beginning of the show, it would go a lot further on the same charge. 1 question about that train, Do they use regenerative braking (I might have missed it) ? Thanks.
Aerodynamics important for cyclists. Aerodynamics for trains do not become significant at speeds of less than about 80 mph. The aerodynamics of the Hitachi 800 series mus be terrible, with all the lumps on the roofs and the wide gaps between the vehicle. There is quite a lot of air resistance due to the kit under the floor.
I may be grasping at straws here but I am guessing you don't like 8xx series trains all that much and rather wish we still had Kings, Castles and (for the branches) 14xx's. Fair?
@@GreenSignals Yes you are grasping at straws. The model for long distance stock is the class 180, which is a 23 metre vehicle with a bay dimension of the golden figure, 1.9 metres, which gives a proper alignment of seats and windows, and luggage space between seat back, where it will not get stolen. This appears to have been based on the 1986 BREL International, and was, I understand produced by a member of the same design team then at the Derby Technical Centre. We need a new design of electric locomotive to power them. Obvious choices would be the Traxx or Vectron for the UK gauge. The best of the bogie designs remain the B4, BT10 and T3-7 (the one under the class 442). The 26 metre vehicles of the 800 series with small wheeled bogies at 17 metre centres are a flawed concept. I understand that they are track bashers. The poor ride quality would suggest this. The wide spacing between the vehicles and the rooftop clutter makes for poor aerodynamics, the seats are dreadful and getting off these trains can be perilous due to the step gap and poorly placed handrails. Short fixed formation trains are a dumb idea, especially when they do not have through gangway connections. So is the use of wide extruded aluminium planks for bodyshells, and that is for a long list of reasons, and yes I am well aware that it is done for the convenience of the manufacturers. With 120 oiling points, and "fancy boilers" the GW four cylinder designs would not be my preferred choice of steam locomotive for present day use. I would be looking for something cheap and cheerful, perhaps similar to the LNER B1, or Southern S15, of course with light oil firing, high superheat, modern exhaust system and comfortable, German style fully enclosed cab. For routes which are not worth electrifying, the gradual introduction of this traction would hugely improve the economics of the railways, which are currently burdened with the capital costs of absurdly expensive modern rolling stock. Remember that most trains spend a significant proportion of their service life doing nothing at all, including being laid up in store for long periods, as your own series has reported. The capital and interest charges still have to be met when the trains are parked out of use. As regards lightly used routes, if something like a 1400 class will do the job (that design is based on an 1870s type), why spend fortunes on technological overkill? As far as zero carbon is concerned; the industry should refuse to play the expensive game. They account for 0.7% of UK carbon emissions.
Well, it wouldn't happen on this particular line as explained in the video. And delay presumably means no movement. Which means no depletion of charge. So not sure why delay of itself is an issue?
@@GreenSignals I was told when I first worked on the railways( when I said a thing was logical ) you are talking logic there is no logic on the railways ???
South Western Railway are a disgrace since they only allowed some of the Class 701 Arterios in service and they rest that are still in storage and some still on test run. Why can’t SWR and Alstom just get all of the Class 701s in service before the end of 2024. And to start using them on Chessington South, Hampton Court, Reading, Dorking, Guildford and Woking services. And to use them on the circular services via Hounslow, Weybridge, Wimbledon, Twickenham, Feltham, Strawberry Hill and Surbiton.
Driver training is the big hold up I believe, they need to get the drivers and instructors released from day to day duty to train up without affecting the existing service.
You were way too nice to the GWR engineering director seeing in recent months the DMU reliablily has been horrendous. Ashley Down has had consecutive cancellations on an hourly service down to fleet matters.
As for the cost of opening Ashley Down,it's not yet possible to find an accurate figure for the station as A it's not quite finished yet ,teams from the contractors still carrying out works when I visited on Tuesday this week And B all cost information so far is held within the overall budget projections for MetroWest . Almost thought you were going to give us you're Humphrey Littleton impersonation at the end Nigel.
surely a train manufacturing company wouldn’t build a whole fleet and not find out the windscreen wipers aren’t good enough. Have they ever heard of R&D and communication with their customers?
Looking at pictures of Aventra front-ends, they seem to be identical and certainly have the same windscreen wiper arrangements on Classes 345. 701, 710 and 720 (different for 730 which have inter-unit corridor connections). So a standard windscreen wiper arrangement developed in R&D is acceptable on 4 fleets is not acceptable on a 5th, so is signal sighting different on SWR (I presume that the driver position on Class 701 is not different)?
Is fuel duty the problem with freight? If that is increased it will affect the cost of living for consumers. Isn't the solution to increase road freight licences & import road charges?
The fast charge battery system sounds impressive, but isn't it using a sledge hammer to crack a nut? The money that has been spent could have paid for a fleet of steam locomotives of the type that ran the route until dieselisation. How much energy is lost in the charging and discharging process? Why is decarbonisation of the railways even a thing? The railways are responsible for 0.7% of total UK emissions.
@@GreenSignals Over-sophisticated technologies. The D stock could have been made into push pull sets. The 1400 class tiddlers could have done the job at a fraction of the cost.
GPO cages costing,s? What next Bass beer barrels at Kings X? My local GPO rail depot has shut, that,s 50+ hgv,s on the road.325 unit,s 95% less polluting, come on Ed Milliband, put yer bacon down and intervene.
Grant Shapps certainly wasn't one of the best SoS we've seen, but I wouldn't be too quick to scoff at the assertion that Zoom/Teams has permanently battered high-yield business travel by rail. Something can rise by 21% year-on-year and still be 50% down on where it was 5 years ago! After all, if something falls by 50% and then rises by 50%, it is still down by 25% overall! Moreover, although it is good that some business demand is returning to rail now that the uncertainty of industrial action has (for now!) passed, much/most of that recovery is accounted for by Advance Purchase, rather than the really juicy, Anytime fares that helped prop up the industry's finances in the period between privatisation and the pandemic. Meanwhile the buck stops with Network Rail for Euston. Chunky delays on the WCML are almost always attributable to them, rather than TOCs, and any lack of leadership in resolving Eustons problems is a failure of NR which is the SFO.
@@GreenSignalsYes, but generic delays that cause the concourse to fill up are almost always NR problems. Meanwhile, the 15% 'no strings' pay award means the agreement dating back to c1998 that prevents ICWC drivers working twice into Euston in any shift remains in situ. I bet the unions had a good laugh at the SoS's claim that the pay award somehow laid the foundation for modernisation of working practices. "Yeah, right" as they say these days! 🤣 If Hague tries to push through such reform, without throwing yet more bundles of taxpayer money at it, we can expect more strikes, and a new SoS quickly installed! Tbf to Labour, the smoke signals ahead of the Budget seem encouraging in terms of avoiding the Mother of all Bottlenecks around Stafford ...
Putting batteries on the train to solve the lack of electrification is one thing; putting batteries on the trackside feels like a whole other thing. I’m not a fan of hydrogen but it does seem worth an investigation, trackside or onboard. I hope at least they used recycled batteries given that their energy density doesn’t matter so much.
Maybe Stadler or CAF could build and manufacture new diesel/hybrid trains that South Western Railway would use and to replace the Class 158 and Class 159. With the Class 158/9 to be cascaded to Northern or Scotrail. And the Class 159 cascaded to Great Western Railway.
@@Andrewjg_89 my hunch, for at least the next decade, modern diesel hybrid for branch lines would be more net efficient than battery electric. I haven’t done the maths though; it depends more on manufacturing and materials than anything else
I think it’s an absolute joke that drivers are having to complain about the windscreen wipers blocking their view & vice verse as these new trains are still not in service. Well only some of the new Class 701 Arterio trains that are in service. But still why can’t SWR drivers stop complaining and just get used to it and operate these new trains. So that South Western Railway can start getting rid of the Class 455 trains that are to be replaced and to be sent for scrap. And with the last 2 Class 707s now gone to Southeastern.
Did you even listen to the pod? The windscreen wipers are very, very, minor part of the problem and it's not drivers complaining about them holding things up.
Guys, please... love your cutaways. If you're going to use a cutaway to pretend you have two cameras on an interview, stay on it for longer than just a second when you use it. Otherwise... ewwww.
You simply couldn’t make it up! Absolutely disgraceful behaviour from the arrogant unions! They should be forced to work them. You work them or you find another job! Sick of them behaving like they’re in the 1970s. It’ll be the wrong type of bog paper next!
Loved Richard's piece on the 230 battery train, having been involved in a big way with this project in the early days and helping Adrian and Vivarail deliver the different fleets, it's great to see the fast charge vision finally rolled out.
I cannot understand why they used 230 001 which was already a completed DEMU
bit of a waste of money stripping it down.
I wonder why they didn't use anconverted D78 there used to be great number stored at Long Marsden is that still the case?
@@paulroberts9570 in part because it had been fitted out with a crash resistant front end. The Ford Turbo Diesel was installed as a complete module so easy to remove. Thus keeping the bodywork reduced costs.
Yes, thanks for Adrian’s mention. He and I had a day, pretending to be average customers, timing the DMU runs to determine potential point to point with battery level acceleration. We came to the conclusion that we could squeeze enough time to allow fast charge to work. Good to see that it does.
Am I right in saying that a number of the fast charge patents are still held in Pete’s name?
@gordondudman240 thanks Gordon
Interesting to hear even an engineer for the fast charge system doesn't think BMUs should be used outside of these smaller applications
I think the main problem is that the top railway manager at the time of the now infamous article, instead of actually fixing Euston, allegedly tried to get the person highlighting the already widely known issues sacked by threatening his now former employer like some kind of mob boss. After the mafia like conduct was made public, Network Rail still decided to deflect any arguments that Euston was a problem. Add that to Hendy's mob boss conduct, it has sadly now made it a political problem. Haigh also just needs to sack Hendy.
He's on the WTYP podcast uploaded two days ago and they spend some time talking about it
0:51 "The biggest decision is what we don't talk about"
Such as any mention of the Rail Minister and former Chairman of Network Rail, Lord Hendy relating to London Euston? Or is he the "somebody at the top of the industry that should have owned this" that Richard refers to?
Blink twice if under duress
Excellent comment!
@@andrewhotston983
@@andrewhotston983Like the elephant in the room, don't mention it
Thanks
Thanks Paul. Much appreciated!
Congratulations on your First Anniversary. It has been a fabulous first year with every new episode surpassing the last. Long may you never [Class 45]
Thanks Roy, that's very kind of you to say!
Thanks for the LSL visit video. I have become a great fan of your channel. Informative with humour, and well produced. Keep up the good work.
Thanks very much David, that's incredibly kind of you.
A few basic ideas for Euston:
1.) Go back to allowing customers for local/suburban services to wait on the platforms (either overall, or during periods of overall disruption) to reduce the crowding of the concourse
2.) Make it VERY CLEAR to customers that a minimum of 10 mins boarding time will be provided for intercity trains, regardless of when they are called for boarding
3.) Remove some of the cluttering retain units to widen the ped-flow routes around the platform entrances
4.) Address the platforming arrangements to minimise the number of times a succession of trains arrive/depart from the same group of platforms within a 5-min period
5.) Put the intercity departures up on the main screens and provide useful information in a manner that does not require ‘scrolling’. Display the suburban services on the smaller monitors.
I'm old enough to have travelled on the battery train which ran between Aberdeen and Ballater in the 1950s. (I also remember the slightly scary charging equipment at Aberdeen station!) It was an interesting experiment although it suffered various issues including lack of flexibility and in later years dubious reliability. That said it was quiet, comfortable and much cheaper to run than a dmu and it certainly wasn't a failure. I've always been surprised that it has taken until now for battery power to be taken properly seriously on the railway.
@@davebarclay4429 it was built on the same principle of milk floats; using lead-acid batteries. They needed a long overnight period with which to recharge. Not much different from home charging on EVs best done overnight.
What a wonderful memory. Lucky indeed!
Thanks!
Thanks Alan, very kind of you!
Congrats on a fun year. Thanks for making us all smarter and making us have a think.😎
That's very kind of you to say to Bob!
Congratulations on your 1st anniversary of fantastic railway journalism look fwd to every eposide
Thanks Paul! They are a lot of fun to produce as well, but even better than people enjoy them and look forward to them.
Congratulations on green signals 1st anniversary 🥂 As always fantastic vlog full of great content 👍🏻 Well done guys 😊
Cheers Stevie!
Another hugely enjoyable podcast, and thank you all for everything that you do to bring these podcasts to us. Happy first birthday too!
I was amused to hear your mention of Daisyfield Junction in Blackburn. Living locally, I can confirm that I'm with you on that one - it isn't even remotely like the name suggests!
Here's a bit of additional and completely useless information for you. In addition to the area called Daisyfield, there is also an area at the opposite side of town, called Davyfield, which is a large industrial estate close to junctions 4 and 5 of the M65 motorway. Visitors to Blackburn often get the two confused - understandably!
Oddly, I did know that and you're right - it does cause confusion!
Many thanks for another show packed with interesting and important stuff. So glad you featured Roger Ford's hard-hitting piece about freight costs, and Tim Shoveller's activities to mitigate that problem. Great to get the detail about the issues re GWR's battery fast-charging: I've always had a soft spot for the Greenford branch, having travelled on it in my extreme youth behind steam (I assume a 14XX 0-4-2). I was shocked to find out (Riku Fryderick's recent youtube video) that since the service stopped running through to Paddington, passenger numbers have dropped like a stone. This shows massive suppressed demand, put off by the necessary change on to the Elizabeth line at West Ealing. Probably the problem is coming back from London - miss the connection and it's half an hour to wait. Your video shows the new trains being tested while the existing service is running, indicating a 15 minute service is possible - which might recover those lost passengers!
A 14XX would do the job at a fraction of the cost of this project.
Yes, although we had to wait 15 minutes at South Greenford for the Networker Turbo to clear the single line at LUL Bay Junction. I haven't sat down with any graph paper but I doubt a 15 minute service is possible given the single track bits at both ends (and the conflicts casued by a great deal of freight - which is good in itself by the way!)
I think it's fair to say that the economic benefits of the Elizabeth Line far, far exceed the lost economic benefits of a relatively small number of passengers on the Greenford branch.
@@GreenSignals Very many thanks for replying in detail. I actually tried it on a spreadsheet, and you are right that a 15-minute service wouldn't work. A 10-minute service would work (trains passing just N of Drayton Gn and just S of S.Greenford) - but your point about freight trains applies. I do think that the general issue of suppressed demand due to half-hourly rail services in outer London should be addressed: after all if you are on a tube line you will get a real turn-up-and-go service, while if you live on, say, the Chessington or Shepperton lines you only get half-hourly.
Absolutely brilliant ! Hooked on this stuff !
That is wonderful to hear. Thanks!
I did enjoy Thursday’s episode. So varied and interesting and informative. Thinking of names and not wishing to offend anyone living there, Flowery Field on the Manchester to Glossop line struck me as pretty grim when going through the station. Especially on a wet day in November!
Thanks Marilyn. Really kind!
Loved the piece on the battery train, well done. It was also great to see my old boss Simon being interviewed.
West Ealing will always hold a special place in my heart. My dad grew up in one of the houses on Manor Road, seen in the background of a number of shots. He recounted many times of enjoying watching GW steam trains from his house and also regularly stood on the footbridge (known locally as Jacob's Ladder) which spanned the mainline - used for one of the departure shots of the 230 from West Ealing, on a dull day. Dad remembered seeing wagons being shunted in the dock platform - where the battery charging cabins are now. He unfortunately passed away over 25 years ago. He would be amazed to see how it has changed from his days there in the 1930s.
What wonderful memories Trevor!
Happy anniversary folks! I see some commenters saying the battery electric trains are a ploy to avoid electrification but I assume there are some lines that it'll never be economic to electrify and even so having these vehicles running now reduces fossil fuel use and doesn't preclude full electrification at a later date. Great show as always.
Spot on. OLE is expensive and so it makes sense to consider hybrid solutions if they are most cost effective / easier to implement.
Fantastic show guys , Thanks David
Thanks David. Glad you enjoyed it!
Another brilliant show folks, thanks for you efforts 👍
Thanks. You are most welcome!
With respect to Euston, it seems that the SoS got involved precisely because the industry leadership we've been looking to seem to be standing around at best like ducks in thunder, or at worst, paralysed by something - be it fear of doing the wrong thing, or the simple lack of autonomy to make the needed changes.
The leaders who have dithered and potentially pointed fingers at each other, either they are lazy, incompetent, or simply do not think that they are in charge. If it's the latter, then the system is more broken than we can imagine, as it's effectively disempowering the leadership. Which is it?
So, the SoS has banged heads together and now we've got our 5-point "Operational Railway Management 101" get-well plan. I agree entirely that it's shameful the SoS had to get involved here.
Another good, classic British Omnishambles!
Enjoyed the battery train section. Learnt a lot about the temperature needs of the batteries to extend life. Of course needs good maintenance to avoid temperature issues. We don't want any fires!
Euston seems to be a victim of industry fragmentation over time and needs radical management focus.
Agree GBR structure needs fast tracking urgently so we can see what scope it will have and how it operates.
No wonder freight has trouble with costs when road costs keep going down. Expect gov to do something here. Hope to see the full video soon.
Happy birthday to all at green signals from one of your first subscribers!
Finally i believe the BOG you mentioned stands for "boundary of grangemouth" rather than a big puddle!
Excellent comments as ever Allan! And thanks for the birthday greetings. You were indeed one of our very first subscribers!
Happy 1st Birthday Green Signals!!!!
Thank you!
Happy 1st birthday, Green Signals! Another interesting and informative programme. And confirming once again the economics that have lead to the difficulties of level pricing transport of goods by rail against road transport. Never mind about carbon emissions, and Green investment.
With regard to Euston in particular. I ask the question that maybe due to the reduced frequency of Avanti train services (irrespective of why) that greater number are building up at Euston and not being cleared by a higher frequency of trains that were planned such as the 3 Birmingham trains per hour and an hourly Chester. Secondly, when there is an event which affects the running of trains at say Leighton Buzzard that even no local services run at all out of Euston. All train crews for WMR / LNR are based at mainly Bletchley or at Northampton but they are non-London based crews. Yes this was mainly down to costs as I seem to remember but having at least some crews being based at Euston could mean that at least a service could be run from Euston to say Hemel to again move some passengers off the concourse to at least these two busy stations. Just my thoughts but I think these could be some reasons or mitigation., looking forward. NB Huge congrats to all at Green Signals for your first anniversary, apologies as I have been busy and taken my attention elsewhere and I must get round to being a member of some sort!
To both of you Nigel and Richard when you think of the environmental benefit of 70% and 95% as you both mentioned of freight by rail and not road, add that to what I said of the VHF timetable that also use of electric locos made that Winsford / Lockerbie and Winsford / Tebay issue hugely shows the capacity benefits that electric haulage brings to any line of route.
Absolutely Simon. I will never forget that comparative analysis you mentioned of the 90 coming over Beattock and down Shap.
You will enjoy our interview with Tim Shoveller next week - he uses almost exactly the same analogy.
In the light of your excellent piece on the GW experiment with battery trains on the Greenford branch (especially the comments about use on longer journeys) I don't think you've covered the recently published proposal to provide a mix of third rail and battery power on the West of England main land between Basingstoke and Exeter. Look forward to something on this in due course!
Ah, then you will be interested in an interview coming up in the next week or so about that very issue. Watch this space, Neil!!
Its a great thing that first your 1 year old !! I only came across Gs about 6 months 😊 ago im so glac i stayed with it !!! 1 year rollon 5 + years
Great Video - Thanks. Also thank you for the info about the new trains for SWT
SWR*
@@Andrewjg_89 Yeah sorry
Cheers. You are most welcome!
Only just finished last weeks now I have this weeks to watch 😄
Excellent! Hope you are enjoying them!
Great anniversary show
Thanks very much!
Hi from Glasgow Thanks for the video from LSL ENJOY it
Cheers Cameron. Glad you enjoyed it!
Another good video thank you all
Good idea to get Patchway/Chippenham to Bristol TM wired. Battery emus could then be used on Filton shuttles and the Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour service. Class 350/2's if they could get fitted with batteries and 3rd rail shoes along with new seating layout like the 350/1 etc they'd be pretty good
ou are most welcome Anthony. thanks.
It’s interesting to see the former Viva Rail 230’s being used for something slightly different once again. Absolutely fascinating. I wonder if LNWR will start hiring from GWR, for the Marston Vale until East/West Rail comes along.
Speaking of which, I think East/West is something hugely overlooked in the media, when compared to Crossrail and HS2. I can’t believe how determined they are to take the route through Bedford station, when it’s going to require total reconstruction of the station, as well as taking through passengers WELL out of their way.
Something else to consider; The people in the new housing estates south of Bedford (Wixhams?) were promised a station for Thameslink. Why aren’t the EWR people drawing their alignment from Millbrook, then building a combined, Tamworth-style station, with East/West punching under the Midland and out to Sandy (where they’ve also struggled to define a path for the line). It seems absolutely absurd to me that they can’t see this obvious solution. Would they really prefer to spend unnecessary millions to completely rebuild Bedford station and depot?
Just something for Green Signals to consider covering…
You're right. I think we should cover East West Rail soon.
Used Euston last December when I couldn’t get a cheap ticket to Birmingham as I usually do. I like the station but was disappointed to see the new small sideways facing departure screens having replaced the large one over the platform entrances. The previous location, used by two generations of Solari boards and the LED displays works well, the new ones do not. Reminds me somewhat of the infamous plasma screens which were installed at Waterloo, which were replaced by new ones were the old Solari boards had been, and the same position as even the old wooden flap boards had been before them.
I was recently in Bradford for a few days, and on one day took a trip to Manchester. Arrived at Manchester Victoria as large crowds were arriving on the station concourse having come out from an event at the arena. New toilets were provided at the station a few years ago, I can’t remember exactly when, but the arena was there at that time. I had to queue for a while to get into the gents, but the situation with the ladies facilities was ridiculous. The queue came out of the roiled room itself, through the outer lobby area, out onto the concourse for some distance. I could see probably see about 60 women in the queuing, not including those who had managed to reach the toilet room itself. How can such totally inadequate facilities be considered acceptable?
There are also log queues to be seen outside the ladies facilities at London Bridge, though at least additional toilets are now being built there.
At Bradford Interchange there are now no toilets due to the closure of the bus station and lower concourse. These have been closed since January and are not now expected to re-open until next January at the earliest. No temporary facilities have been provided
At Stratford there are toilets, but the entrance is hidden away under a staircase and difficult to find. The facilities are very often closed, and when open are quite inadequate for such a large station, served by many trains which do not have toilets. These facilities are not a luxury, they are a necessity. Oddly, the ones at Euston do seem to be quite good to me.
Thanks for the comments.
The original DLR stock had vinyls saying "Hold on Tight. High Performance Vehicle". Sounds like the D train needs those too....
How long will the test, run , for on the Class 230`s?
Genuinely don’t know - but will ask!
Here is a solution. Why don't train builders and ASLEF collaborate to design a train that is modern but meets the requirements for ASLEF's needs? It would avoid issues like this.
It always used to be the case that drivers (and all staff) were consulted.
Congratulations on achieving your first Level up day 🎉🎉🎉
Thanks very much!
Used to work for an airline and if a new aircraft type arrived, everyone was enthusiastic, all air and ground staff trained and the plane was in revenue service in days. Striking differences with railways. It's no wonder that governments have doubts about spending more money on trains.
I worked for an airline a well for a while (admittedly as a non exec) and I do recall a rather large amount of time spent on r&d and testing before anything arrived "in days".
I agree there was a great deal of anticipation for any new plane coming into service though!
They want action taken at Euston but now indulge in extended hand-wringing because the SoS has got involved to bang some heads together? The coverage of this issue continues to be quite peculiar.
Euston needs an old style Station Master, such as whom had ULTIMATE control of his station.
I only wanted to know if GWR are upgrading the seat pads ;)
Bit weird in my opinion to constantly call for someone to take charge and then complain when the Secretary of State (the passenger in chief and representative of the people) gets involved to give Network rail a kick up the arse to do something after clearly failing for years is rather strange especially when you consider currently no one actually is in charge and that time and time again the industry simply fails to do the bare minimum until they're forced into it. Furthermore this is clearly a one off to show she's serious especially in a climate of bad headlines and I think the criticism only comes from Nigels pathological libertarianism
I'm intrigued Adam. On what evidence can you say ' this is a clearly a one off....'.
Did I miss something?
@@GreenSignals the same evidence that this is indicative of future behaviour (nothing, as it’s too early to tell) it’s a reasonable assumption that the Secretary of State who has made a big deal out of being the passenger in chief and moving fast to fix things in her own words would step in harshly but ultimately symbolically to demonstrate her commitment especially as it’s an easy good headline when the current government is beset by bad headlines I just think it’s poor judgment to see this in a solely negative light
@@Adam-pk2te Well, the good news is that time will tell!
@@GreenSignals and on that we agree!
Always informative and entertaining. Keep it up. One question. Do you believe Ferryhill Station will ever reopen
We certainly will try to Paul.
Re Ferryhill, very hard to say. Busy old main line now and every station you add creates capacity issues.
Nigel, I wouldn’t call it a five point plan, I would call it the setting of tasks / milestones which are integral to achieving a safe station at all times. Separate - run in parallel - but determined granularly with the SoS reviewing the solution before it becoming business as usual SOP (I.e. issue never closed).
Richard, I continue to be perplexed in regard to your reluctance to hold those Euston people accountable. You keep mentioning it is a difficult challenge and failing thrice does not perplex you. In your role at Virgin, what elements, if any, did you fail to resolve four times in a row without ever becoming accountable and are still proud of?
Re; the question, is cut and fill still a bore? It’s definitely a tunnel which would include many large multi-platform station approaches.
Phil.
🙀😱
Phil. I said very clearly this week (and indeed I see I have been quoted by the BBC saying the same thing) that whilst there may be a plan for Euston it would not appear to be being effectively implemented at times and someone needs to own it / sort it. Since the the lead Dutyholder at Euston is Network Rail because it is their station, that means Network Rail.
Re the question, I personally don't think cut / fill is a bore. But I accept it is still a tunnel.
The wrong type of snow, the wrong type of ice, the wrong type of hot weather (we do have heatwaves sometimes), the wrong type of leaves on the line, think flooding is classified as the wrong levels of rainfall. Windscreen wipers, from a safety perspective, a drivers field of vision should be as good as practically possible, 1 000's of commuters lives ultimately depend upon this regardless of APT AND TPWS.
That as said this does read a bit like a script from Yes Prime Minister.
The GWR battery train was interesting to hear about but I think it's a gimmick that lets government and the rail industry off the hook for investing in electrification, furthermore I think abandoning diesel is foolish when the country doesn't have energy security, in fact if you look at National Grid live we consume 5GW more than we produce and thus clean diesel should be kept as an emergency backup
We need to wean ourselves off oil and gas and stop giving money to OPEC who do not share the same values as ours. Green Hydrogen and Electrification is the way forward. We need to look at China as to how it is now successfully importing less oil from OPEC
@@use-oc4mj6n Unless we start building Small Modular Nuclear Reactor plants it ain't happening. What exactly are 'our values'?
The trackside batteries charge at night when there's more likely to be a surplus of electricity generated
Regarding the comment on the 17.38 kings X to Sunderland service and the national conditions of carriage
I will be very interested to see the response the points you raised
However the train won't be classed as cancelled only part cancelled as it's starting at Doncaster.
I fail to see how you could catch an earlier GC service to Doncaster to connect if you've been working all day without the use of a time machine
Ah, a time machine. That would be a thing. So many lines I would love to travel on if possible....
In terms of someone taking control of Euston, the problem is that if someone were to own up to taking responsibility, they might then have to accept the consequences when the 'strategy' fails to deliver to the reuqired level. The buck never appears to stop with those in charge and there are no consequences.
I fear you are mistaken. The buck already stops with the Dutyholder. That much is clear and always has been.
The Yorkshire explorer starts in Rochdale and goes to Vic from there.
Thanks.
Please address the railcard Northern Fines scandal next week. Would be interested in your take 😊
Hi Owen, Don't worry, we're on the case and hope to be reporting on that next time.
Seconded… this really made my blood boil. Have we learned nothing from the “Great Post-Office Scandal” about the folly of allowing companies to pursue private prosecutions?
Hopefully Southern are planning similar things for their diesel routes.....
That would be an interesting idea.
Whilst is good, it however seems to me to be the typical, British problem of sticking plaster to solve the fact that the wires not gone up for electrification. Surely the correct solution is to electrify the network and then just use standard units.
Nope, the eventual solution will be batteries in every train. EV cars have decreased the price of traction motors by about a factor of 10 and fitting a full Tesla power pack per car will set you back about 0.1% of the cost of a typical £1.5 million rail coach. The pay off is that you can now make EMUs accelerate about 2-3 times faster than when they are restricted by the wires, you can plow through interruptions in the wire and range hundreds of miles off the wires per day. Also depots don't need to be wired.
If you look at putting an EV battery into the 14 tonnes of weight allocated to the diesel engine and fuel on board a 5 car class 800 train then you could put 18,000 hp into that train and accelerate at the traction/passenger comfort limit pretty much all the way to top speed. On high speed railway lines it means that you can hit 300 KPH in 7km. Essentially making it possible to run a high speed line like a . metro.
Switzerland, by and large has a standard 15 Kv 16 2/3 Hz over head system. Some exceptions to this for example the Bernina route, however Switzerland operates both standard gauge and metre gauge trains and within each different loading gauges often occur..
Outside of Merseyside, London, Manchester and Tyneside idealistically this should happen and implemented in a cost efficient manner but that's probably for the next generation or the one after that to figure out.
@@adodgygeeza"Restricted by the wires"???? What utter rubbish! Battery trains are far more restricted by the dead weight of the batteries!
Batteries are good in conjunction with diesel or overhead, but Battery alone is complete madness
Interesting to hear that they are using LTO batteries (Titanate anode) that allow very high charging currents and promise over 20000 charging cycles. This is definitely the right choice for this application. However, this type of battery is not used in standard electric cars, as car batteries (NMC/NMA/LFP) are optimtmzied for higher capacity and smaller size. Very high braking and charging capability is not required for cars. I whish this project a brillant future.
Thanks - interesting info!
Some are being used to carry passengers, to Windsor and Shepperton.
Was hoping that SWR would also allow the new Class 701s to enter service on the Chessington South, Hampton Court and circular routes before the end of this year.
@@Andrewjg_89 we all hope for that. The Reading line should get them early on because it is one of the longest sububan routes.
Indeed.
I wonder is someone could make new body shells like the 150 and fit with Battery Tech for Cornish Branches
Excellent show as always, chaps & Stef. And happy anniversary.
Regarding freight on the railways, I fear for its future. Road transport has started the transition to de-carbonisation, and the huge opportunity that the "carbon advantage" rail has had will rapidly diminish. This will stifle both public and private investment, as the environmental benefits of using rail for freight disappears. The same threat - to a lesser extent - exists for passenger traffic, as cars "go green".
I hope I'm wrong.
I rather hope you are wrong too Stephen, though you may not feel much better when you hear Tim Shoveller's excellent interview next week. The odds do seem somewhat stacked against freight, although Tim's Track Access Credit plan which he has pushed through with Network Rail will help.
The B-roll shots of the battery train must have taken some time!
In fairness, those where from GWR themselves and rather good they were too. They said they were happy for us to use them.
Hmmm, according to released stats it's charging at about 4 C which is good but its about the same as a model 3 charging at a max of 300KW when it can charge at 250kW There are some cars which can already sustain a 4 C charge rate on LFP batteries they don't have to go with something a niche as titanate batteries. I suspect that if they were properly funded they'd have gone down the LFP route.
Interesting interviews about the battery unit, hearing the engineer talking about batteries being limited to branch lines and the need for OHLE, and then the director talking about "islands of electrification" - i.e. no prospect of significant extension of OHLE. They can't both be right, and I know who I'd trust.
The CEO can only be appointed by the Board, so you have to start with the Chair and then the other members before they can recruit the Executives..
Their appointment needs to be approved by the Board yes, but a Chair-Elect and CEO-Elect can be nominated prior to that and in any order. The appointment of the Chair will also need to be noted by the Board but since there isn't a Board (and indeed even a legal entity) the current Chair nominee must be just that. A CEO nominee could be the same.
Battery trains would be very welcome at New Street Station in Birmingham. I have not been for a while but the smell of diesel fumes was horrendous when I was last there. My car is subject to the ULEZ charge should I drive into Birmingham, I contacted Birmingham Council about the diesel trains and was told they did not count in their air pollution calculation which is completely mad. Tesla are intending to roll out what we would call electric articulated lorries on mass in the not so distant future therefore I cannot see why battery powered trains on some routes is not a very viable option.
Am sure you are right Charles. Interesting that the CEO of Stadler recently said that he does not see anyone buying a purely diesel train from now on.
@@GreenSignals Trains seem perfectly suited to a mixture of taking electric from a third rail or overhead. With batteries onboard a train you would not have to electrify the whole line, but say 20% (Than number is a total guess). That would massively reduce the cost of electrifying the network. This idea is being tested in Europe & the UK to study using overhead wires to power long-haul trucks. Same idea different application.
Happy Anniversary.
Big question to the train industry at large. Why is there not more attention given to aerodynamics to reduce the amount energy consumed ? Some of these trains have the aerodynamics of a brick !
It has been proven in the cycling world that Aeordynamics trumps Weight starting at 15kmh (almost all trains go faster than that), meaning that even if you add marginal weight to improve aeordynamics, you'll go faster with less energy, why the train industry doesn't do more on that side ?
For instance looking at that battery train at the beginning of the show, it would go a lot further on the same charge. 1 question about that train, Do they use regenerative braking (I might have missed it) ?
Thanks.
Aerodynamics important for cyclists. Aerodynamics for trains do not become significant at speeds of less than about 80 mph. The aerodynamics of the Hitachi 800 series mus be terrible, with all the lumps on the roofs and the wide gaps between the vehicle. There is quite a lot of air resistance due to the kit under the floor.
thanks Richard. Yes, they do use regen braking. Sorry, should have covered that in the video!
I may be grasping at straws here but I am guessing you don't like 8xx series trains all that much and rather wish we still had Kings, Castles and (for the branches) 14xx's. Fair?
@@GreenSignals
Yes you are grasping at straws. The model for long distance stock is the class 180, which is a 23 metre vehicle with a bay dimension of the golden figure, 1.9 metres, which gives a proper alignment of seats and windows, and luggage space between seat back, where it will not get stolen. This appears to have been based on the 1986 BREL International, and was, I understand produced by a member of the same design team then at the Derby Technical Centre. We need a new design of electric locomotive to power them. Obvious choices would be the Traxx or Vectron for the UK gauge.
The best of the bogie designs remain the B4, BT10 and T3-7 (the one under the class 442).
The 26 metre vehicles of the 800 series with small wheeled bogies at 17 metre centres are a flawed concept. I understand that they are track bashers. The poor ride quality would suggest this. The wide spacing between the vehicles and the rooftop clutter makes for poor aerodynamics, the seats are dreadful and getting off these trains can be perilous due to the step gap and poorly placed handrails.
Short fixed formation trains are a dumb idea, especially when they do not have through gangway connections. So is the use of wide extruded aluminium planks for bodyshells, and that is for a long list of reasons, and yes I am well aware that it is done for the convenience of the manufacturers.
With 120 oiling points, and "fancy boilers" the GW four cylinder designs would not be my preferred choice of steam locomotive for present day use. I would be looking for something cheap and cheerful, perhaps similar to the LNER B1, or Southern S15, of course with light oil firing, high superheat, modern exhaust system and comfortable, German style fully enclosed cab.
For routes which are not worth electrifying, the gradual introduction of this traction would hugely improve the economics of the railways, which are currently burdened with the capital costs of absurdly expensive modern rolling stock. Remember that most trains spend a significant proportion of their service life doing nothing at all, including being laid up in store for long periods, as your own series has reported. The capital and interest charges still have to be met when the trains are parked out of use.
As regards lightly used routes, if something like a 1400 class will do the job (that design is based on an 1870s type), why spend fortunes on technological overkill?
As far as zero carbon is concerned; the industry should refuse to play the expensive game. They account for 0.7% of UK carbon emissions.
what happens if there is a delay and the train runs out of charge before it gets to the charging point ???
Well, it wouldn't happen on this particular line as explained in the video. And delay presumably means no movement. Which means no depletion of charge. So not sure why delay of itself is an issue?
@@GreenSignals I was thinking when or if it goes into full service ???
@@donaldmaxwell3428 OK, but that ought to be something factored into the operational 'in service' plan - one would hope!
@@GreenSignals I was told when I first worked on the railways( when I said a thing was logical ) you are talking logic there is no logic on the railways ???
South Western Railway are a disgrace since they only allowed some of the Class 701 Arterios in service and they rest that are still in storage and some still on test run. Why can’t SWR and Alstom just get all of the Class 701s in service before the end of 2024. And to start using them on Chessington South, Hampton Court, Reading, Dorking, Guildford and Woking services. And to use them on the circular services via Hounslow, Weybridge, Wimbledon, Twickenham, Feltham, Strawberry Hill and Surbiton.
Driver training is the big hold up I believe, they need to get the drivers and instructors released from day to day duty to train up without affecting the existing service.
Ah right now I understand. 👍
You were way too nice to the GWR engineering director seeing in recent months the DMU reliablily has been horrendous. Ashley Down has had consecutive cancellations on an hourly service down to fleet matters.
We'll pick that up on a future episode. The focus was on Battery Train testing and future fleet replacement strategy but your points are well made.
I probably will comit to joining membership soon - nut im.busy at the moment as a deputy poppy organizer rbl
Thanks very much Andrew. And what a worthy thing to be busy with!
Happy Birthday Green Signals Cheers with Tea from my GS Mug,looking forward to more to come.
As for the cost of opening Ashley Down,it's not yet possible to find an accurate figure for the station as A it's not quite finished yet ,teams from the contractors still carrying out works when I visited on Tuesday this week
And B all cost information so far is held within the overall budget projections for MetroWest .
Almost thought you were going to give us you're Humphrey Littleton impersonation at the end Nigel.
Cheers!
One wonders whether the DfT should offer Gareth Dennis a role now that he's been fired for pointing out the obvious. He could take on Hendy's job.
Diesel fuel duty for road use 54ppl, for rail use 11ppl ???
I think you mean 701, not 170 :)
Indeed so. 😬
Quiz Guess; Birmingham New Street South Tunnel?
Quiz Answer; who knows! But all will be revealed next week!
The Answer for the quiz is a tunnel on the london underground. The Answer is very obvious from here
Depends if LU is on "the network"
Also the word "bore" was used, which would rule out cut and cover
Couldn't possibly comment - answer on the show next week!
surely a train manufacturing company wouldn’t build a whole fleet and not find out the windscreen wipers aren’t good enough. Have they ever heard of R&D and communication with their customers?
Looking at pictures of Aventra front-ends, they seem to be identical and certainly have the same windscreen wiper arrangements on Classes 345. 701, 710 and 720 (different for 730 which have inter-unit corridor connections). So a standard windscreen wiper arrangement developed in R&D is acceptable on 4 fleets is not acceptable on a 5th, so is signal sighting different on SWR (I presume that the driver position on Class 701 is not different)?
Andrew adonis should be CEO he doesn't seem afraid to bang heads together as well as facing down the treasures
He'll be too busy being Rail Minister. Get Heidi Mottram to be CEO. Ex-BR management trainee to the fore
The railways are managed by the treasurey!
Is fuel duty the problem with freight? If that is increased it will affect the cost of living for consumers. Isn't the solution to increase road freight licences & import road charges?
I think it depends on what you apply fuel duty to. It's a not a one charge fits all. Can be applied differentially to cars and HGVs.
Not a railway Bore in sight
Excellent.
3:41 that's a VPN lol
The fast charge battery system sounds impressive, but isn't it using a sledge hammer to crack a nut? The money that has been spent could have paid for a fleet of steam locomotives of the type that ran the route until dieselisation.
How much energy is lost in the charging and discharging process?
Why is decarbonisation of the railways even a thing? The railways are responsible for 0.7% of total UK emissions.
Not entirely sure what the point is here!
@@GreenSignals
Over-sophisticated technologies. The D stock could have been made into push pull sets. The 1400 class tiddlers could have done the job at a fraction of the cost.
GPO cages costing,s? What next Bass beer barrels at Kings X? My local GPO rail depot has shut, that,s 50+ hgv,s on the road.325 unit,s 95% less polluting, come on Ed Milliband, put yer bacon down and intervene.
Good points!
Grant Shapps certainly wasn't one of the best SoS we've seen, but I wouldn't be too quick to scoff at the assertion that Zoom/Teams has permanently battered high-yield business travel by rail. Something can rise by 21% year-on-year and still be 50% down on where it was 5 years ago! After all, if something falls by 50% and then rises by 50%, it is still down by 25% overall! Moreover, although it is good that some business demand is returning to rail now that the uncertainty of industrial action has (for now!) passed, much/most of that recovery is accounted for by Advance Purchase, rather than the really juicy, Anytime fares that helped prop up the industry's finances in the period between privatisation and the pandemic.
Meanwhile the buck stops with Network Rail for Euston. Chunky delays on the WCML are almost always attributable to them, rather than TOCs, and any lack of leadership in resolving Eustons problems is a failure of NR which is the SFO.
Yes, although there are train crew issues which are pretty critical and need managing by the train company, not Network rail.
@@GreenSignalsYes, but generic delays that cause the concourse to fill up are almost always NR problems. Meanwhile, the 15% 'no strings' pay award means the agreement dating back to c1998 that prevents ICWC drivers working twice into Euston in any shift remains in situ.
I bet the unions had a good laugh at the SoS's claim that the pay award somehow laid the foundation for modernisation of working practices. "Yeah, right" as they say these days! 🤣
If Hague tries to push through such reform, without throwing yet more bundles of taxpayer money at it, we can expect more strikes, and a new SoS quickly installed!
Tbf to Labour, the smoke signals ahead of the Budget seem encouraging in terms of avoiding the Mother of all Bottlenecks around Stafford ...
Putting batteries on the train to solve the lack of electrification is one thing; putting batteries on the trackside feels like a whole other thing. I’m not a fan of hydrogen but it does seem worth an investigation, trackside or onboard.
I hope at least they used recycled batteries given that their energy density doesn’t matter so much.
Maybe Stadler or CAF could build and manufacture new diesel/hybrid trains that South Western Railway would use and to replace the Class 158 and Class 159. With the Class 158/9 to be cascaded to Northern or Scotrail. And the Class 159 cascaded to Great Western Railway.
@@Andrewjg_89 my hunch, for at least the next decade, modern diesel hybrid for branch lines would be more net efficient than battery electric. I haven’t done the maths though; it depends more on manufacturing and materials than anything else
Daily Telegraph. Invent negative news to attack the Railways
I think it’s an absolute joke that drivers are having to complain about the windscreen wipers blocking their view & vice verse as these new trains are still not in service. Well only some of the new Class 701 Arterio trains that are in service. But still why can’t SWR drivers stop complaining and just get used to it and operate these new trains.
So that South Western Railway can start getting rid of the Class 455 trains that are to be replaced and to be sent for scrap. And with the last 2 Class 707s now gone to Southeastern.
Did you even listen to the pod? The windscreen wipers are very, very, minor part of the problem and it's not drivers complaining about them holding things up.
Thanks for the input. 👍
😂😂
Guys, please... love your cutaways. If you're going to use a cutaway to pretend you have two cameras on an interview, stay on it for longer than just a second when you use it.
Otherwise... ewwww.
You simply couldn’t make it up! Absolutely disgraceful behaviour from the arrogant unions! They should be forced to work them. You work them or you find another job! Sick of them behaving like they’re in the 1970s. It’ll be the wrong type of bog paper next!
So fairly strong view then?
Thanks
Cheers Simon. Very much appreciated. Richard
Thanks!
Cheers Bob - much appreciated!
Thanks
Thanks every so much Chris!
Thanks!
Cheers Bob. Very much appreciated!
Thanks
Cheers Chris - very much appreciated.
Thanks!
That’s very kind of you - thanks!
Thanks
Thanks Jonathan - much appreciated!
Thanks
thanks Robert. That is kind and much appreciated.