Whether modest or not, the choice is up to the person to decide. Whether, they have been taught this right from age or decided to phase out of the teachings, religious or not, it's still their choice and their comfort. What is a given however, is that the whole point of modesty was intended for the male gaze, or protection thereof. Thus, I would say its the responsibility of men to respect not only the choice of how women dress, but also respect their bodies as well, that means not sexualising them or seeing them as an object to be kept away or used.
You put this so perfectly, better than I could and I agree. Modesty, like you said, is for the male gaze. It suggests that the female body is inherently sexual and we must cover for protection because otherwise it is too tempting to the male gaze. I dress "modestly" but it isn't for the male gaze, it's simply a matter of the choice of fashion I like and it's practical in the context of my lifestyle but, unsurprisingly, it hasn't stopped men from being creepy because clothes are not the issue here.
rather dress modest then wait for men to take their responsibility of not viewing me as a sex object, because ill be waiting till im dead and its still not happening lol
no one wants to talk about how modesty is an inherently sexual concept. when you enforce modesty on children, you are sexualizing them. people have a lot of cognitive dissonance around this, and say they are protecting children from being sexualized by others. i have empathy for this point of view but ultimately i think it's backwards and harmful. modesty as a social construct is something i think about a lot, so i really enjoyed this video
I'm able to encourage my daughter to prioritize a certain level of modesty by helping her to understand that there are very special and sensitive parts that need extra protection. Not from view, because those parts include eyes and lips, but from the elements, or from environmental factors. And I believe this, upper thighs are sensitive! And of course, there's a level of modesty that is required in Western culture. Also, being seen is sometimes something that carries great weight- for example, in my culture, mal ojo (the evil eye) is usually from envy, which can be from people looking at a beautiful child and just coveting their radiance, which is energetically harmful. So we take spiritual precautions while making sure the child knows their own power and radiance are to be treasured and nurtured. We often keep new babies protected from too much attention and too many eyes, because it can drain their energy.
It's not inherently sexual, men (westerns in general) made it sexual by sexualizing a woman's body. There are many reasons to be modest and there are many environments where modesty is the most appropriate dress code. And some people just don't feel the need to show skin. Plus fashion was always modest until these few recent years
I really appreciate you mentioning the role of modesty in colonialism! A lot of people overlook it when they discuss this topic but it’s so important I’ll only speak to what I know, but the purity culture in evangelical christianity is known to contribute to making children, especially girls, more vulnerable to abuse. It can also cause trauma and sexual dysfunction that affects people into adulthood and even for a lifetime. In my experience correcting a girl or woman’s modesty was often just a disguise for sexual harassment…
I've experienced American purity culture moving to the US from north western Europe as a teen for just under a year and again living in the US for a few years with husband and kids. Specifically my teenage daughter. I'm fortunate my parents backed me up and we tried to do the same. The most infuriating part is they think of their purity culture as European/Christian. As a European, I don't recognize any of it. My daughter has every right to wear skirts short enough to see her bottom when she bends over if she wants to. She has full bodily autonomy to go nudes at the beach or wear a bhurkini, honestly these aren't even remotely our biggest concerns about her future. We want her physically, emotionally, mentally healthy, strong and independent. Teenagers are figuring themselves out and should be given full creative license to do just that.
@ It’s so nice to hear parents respecting their kids’ autonomy! Yeah I agree, I’m not American either but I grew up in a church that had strong influence from US christianity. The funny thing is, even people who try to follow what those American preachers and theologians say about “purity” are still nowhere near as strict as actual Americans. They think they’re following all the rules, some pride themselves on it, but they can’t replicate the reality. Pretty much the only people who do are families with at least one American parent. And the same people who take these American preachers so seriously almost always think the American families are a bit crazy! The watered down version I experienced was traumatic enough but purity culture in the US is horrific…
Oh yeah it’s always the men who see women as objects that go on about women “respecting themselves”. It’s almost like men who respect all women respect them regardless of what they wear
I remember at church once they announced a couple getting married. And the pastor yelled 'our sister is a pure virgin amen !' People yelled and praised the lord🤦🏾♀️. Not one word was said about whether the guy was also a virgin or not. It was very weird. I have many weird stories like this from church. I still believe in God but l don't do church anymore.
@@Thobela-h3x Oh gross that’s super weird of them. Meanwhile men can get away with murder, the double standard is crazy 😭 That makes a lot of sense!!! I don’t think I could cope with going back to church even if I wanted to
The societal judgement affects men too. Men dressing any way outside of the traditional masculine norm will be stigmatized as either gay (derogatory) or creepy perverts.
the other day i got angry at an influencer posting about how certain dresses are not modest enough for wedding guests. from what she said, you'd think she was modeling sheer clothes, but they were regular black tie dresses with cleavage. anyway, i commented something like "sorry i don't want to wear a turtleneck to a wedding" as mostly sarcasm, whoch lead to dozens of people, unfortunately mostly gen z women, calling me a wh*re in the replies and insinuating that i'd only want to wear a cleavage to seduce men at weddings. like what if i were, but tbh it's because deeper cleavages make my body more proportional and i don't get sad and insecure as i do with covered collars. i didn't really believe in modesty as a concept before this, but now i'm 1000% sure it's just a way to judge women.
also i'm against dress codes for this very reason. schools and certain workplaces uphold sexist, racist and classist stereotypes with dress codes that punish people disproportionately for not having certain hair and body types. like a woman with bigger breasts, especially a young woman at school, can be discriminated and treated as morally inferior due to her clothes not fitting the same way they do on a smaller woman? bs, same goes for black people not being able to wear their hair naturally due to a "moral" (aka racist) view on what professionalism should look like
So I really love modest fashion. Modesty to me is power over my body. It gives me the comfort of knowing who is allowed to see what parts of me, knowing that’s entirely my decision that no one can take away. I’m Christian, I personally don’t believe God shames his creations for displaying the bodies he gave us, but I find value in covering most of myself. I love my body, and I find a lot of strength in knowing I’ll only show it to people who will love it as much as I do. To me, modest fashion doesn’t have hard and fast rules. It’s not modest just because it’s 3 inches past my fingertips, or if the shoulder strap is as wide as my hand. Modesty is a vibe, if I feel good in it, it’s modest. If I feel uncomfortable in it, time to pick something else The problem with wearing anything as a woman is you’re going to receive judgement for it. I know if I wore short skirts I would get shit, but I tend to also get a lot for dressing like this too. People will think I’m doing it for men or accuse me of not being a “girls girl” (???), and I’ll also get creeps who put other women down because they think I want to hear that. Women’s bodies will be policed no matter how much or how little of it is seen, and I think that’s the biggest issue that transcends beyond the concept of modesty
What was the context of being called "not a girls' girl"? That's a weird one, unless you said something that someone else understood as a judgment on their choices (whether that was your intent or not).
@ what I specifically mean by that is going shopping with a friend, and I picked up a skirt but wound up putting it back after mentioning it was shorter than I like wearing, and then getting a weird look from her. I asked what was up, and she told me she was a bit put off by commenting on the length of the skirt. I specified it was a bit short for ME, not that it was a bit short generally, but it didn’t come across I guess. She was a good person but she definitely had her own anxiety and communication issues. I don’t blame her for her defensiveness but there was no way it could’ve been taken as judgmental without actively trying to find something bad faith in my offhand comment
The sad thing is modesty does not protect women. The middle east, red states, and in general ultra conservative religions has horrible sa culture issues. You do it for religious regions for your beliefs. Do not do it for men. The more conservatives you have the higher sa statistics. Covering for men is pointless.
Thank you for representing Islam well🫶it’s so refreshing to hear a take that has nuance when it comes to women’s modesty in Islam and not painted as a strange thing that oppresses us. I love wearing my niqab and hijab and our religion says that there is no compulsion in religion. You can’t force your religious practices on others. Thanks for clarifying that people who force women to dress a certain way in other countries who claim it’s “Islam” are not actually representative of what the faith teaches. I also love how you brought up the role of colonization, im Algerian American and in Algeria the French invaded and wanted to “westernize” us like you mentioned, effects are still shown in our country but Alhamdulilah Algeria was able to gain independence and kick out the French. Thanks for using Muslim women as the voice for Muslim women on the Islam segment! We also have modesty in speech, dress, food, vision, and other aspects in common with our Jewish brothers and sisters! 🫶May God guide and bless us all !🤲🏻
I really wish you'd expanded on the rise of modest fashion in response to the comodification of womens bodies. There have been lots of comments from revert muslims who, even if they struggle with head covering, find being intentionally more modest with clothing liberating. I also think theres something to be said about women's age and expected modesty. Ive seen those videos of mothers comparing girls and boys toddlers clothing and its actually really concerning. But also, there's somewhat of a stigma around mothers and women of a certain age dressing more risque. And also the consideration that some womens bodies are considered not modest even when they cover up because actually theres a lack of clothing that caters to them. I think theres a lot more to this discussion
I think it’s very interesting how women have taken modesty clothing to make it work for them tbh. It makes me think of the COVID mask. Technically it’s covering your face but some people actually liked it because they didn’t have to put as much effort into their looks while wearing it. Even athletic wear may been as a woman sexualizing herself but it can actually be a way to be comfortable without too much effort.
I grew up Mormon but left the church before I had to start wearing garments. Here in Utah, there is a new work around that if youre in gym clothes you dont need to wear them, so women walk around in gym clothes 24/7 and claim they were just heading to or getting back from the gym.
no matter what excuses anyone tries to use, the reality is that there's a tag on your ass if you're even vaguely femme. and sorry to anyone who thought they could work with it or cover up enough to avoid it...the tag was put there when you were born and other people(including other women) will just stick it back on. Public or private, still property.
This video is so incredible, from arguments to just being respectful. Christianity is often criticised in videos and such criticism often comes across as judgey or offensive, as a practising Catholic, but yours honestly didn't come across that way at all. I really appreciate how you adressed those arguments and how respectful you were of different people's choices; it really kept the video on track and made it really easy to follow along the course of the debate!! ♥♥♥
Fashion is always political because whether you like it or not it’s completely a way to control women and use what you wear as an excuse for grape as if elderly and children aren’t graped as well. This also strongly stems from religion , it was never women’s choice to cover their bodies head to toe in clothes including their face. They needed to as a way to deter men’s atrocities and violent sa away from them and that was the only thing they could do. It was never about self respect just oppression and control
I respectfully disagree on it always being a means to control and police women from an Islamic standpoint as a Muslim. A lot of Muslim women including myself wear hijab because we feel closer to God doing so and it is sort of our faith I’m sure Jewish women do the same for the same reasons. I also cover my face now as well, to others it might seem restricting or oppressive but I’ve never felt more free. Before I was religious I just wore whatever I thought other people wanted to see me in but at the time I thought I was doing it “for myself”. I never felt more free in hijab. I do agree with on how for a lot of people that might be the case because SA is very real and rampant and sadly some women feel so scared they have to adjust their wardrobe to feel safer but it does affect all types of women no matter what you wear.
Im muslim and im modest and i chose so. And if someone chose to not be modest that’s okay. If i want to get in the water with a lot of fabric thats my “problem”. If someone wants to get in the water with a bikini thats fine and their “problem”. Men also need to be modest in islam. Its like covering their knees to belly button
no problem girly! I definitely tried to educate myself as much as possible before making this video and i believe women should get to choose how much they want to show honestly
Whether modest or not, the choice is up to the person to decide. Whether, they have been taught this right from age or decided to phase out of the teachings, religious or not, it's still their choice and their comfort. What is a given however, is that the whole point of modesty was intended for the male gaze, or protection thereof. Thus, I would say its the responsibility of men to respect not only the choice of how women dress, but also respect their bodies as well, that means not sexualising them or seeing them as an object to be kept away or used.
Love this comment ❤️
You put this so perfectly, better than I could and I agree. Modesty, like you said, is for the male gaze. It suggests that the female body is inherently sexual and we must cover for protection because otherwise it is too tempting to the male gaze. I dress "modestly" but it isn't for the male gaze, it's simply a matter of the choice of fashion I like and it's practical in the context of my lifestyle but, unsurprisingly, it hasn't stopped men from being creepy because clothes are not the issue here.
rather dress modest then wait for men to take their responsibility of not viewing me as a sex object, because ill be waiting till im dead and its still not happening lol
no one wants to talk about how modesty is an inherently sexual concept. when you enforce modesty on children, you are sexualizing them. people have a lot of cognitive dissonance around this, and say they are protecting children from being sexualized by others. i have empathy for this point of view but ultimately i think it's backwards and harmful.
modesty as a social construct is something i think about a lot, so i really enjoyed this video
I'm able to encourage my daughter to prioritize a certain level of modesty by helping her to understand that there are very special and sensitive parts that need extra protection. Not from view, because those parts include eyes and lips, but from the elements, or from environmental factors. And I believe this, upper thighs are sensitive! And of course, there's a level of modesty that is required in Western culture. Also, being seen is sometimes something that carries great weight- for example, in my culture, mal ojo (the evil eye) is usually from envy, which can be from people looking at a beautiful child and just coveting their radiance, which is energetically harmful. So we take spiritual precautions while making sure the child knows their own power and radiance are to be treasured and nurtured. We often keep new babies protected from too much attention and too many eyes, because it can drain their energy.
It's not inherently sexual, men (westerns in general) made it sexual by sexualizing a woman's body. There are many reasons to be modest and there are many environments where modesty is the most appropriate dress code. And some people just don't feel the need to show skin. Plus fashion was always modest until these few recent years
Modesty is not sexual, it is asexual and anti sexual
Modestly isn’t sexual, it is asexual and anti sexual which is a good thing
🤦..
I really appreciate you mentioning the role of modesty in colonialism! A lot of people overlook it when they discuss this topic but it’s so important
I’ll only speak to what I know, but the purity culture in evangelical christianity is known to contribute to making children, especially girls, more vulnerable to abuse. It can also cause trauma and sexual dysfunction that affects people into adulthood and even for a lifetime. In my experience correcting a girl or woman’s modesty was often just a disguise for sexual harassment…
I've experienced American purity culture moving to the US from north western Europe as a teen for just under a year and again living in the US for a few years with husband and kids. Specifically my teenage daughter. I'm fortunate my parents backed me up and we tried to do the same.
The most infuriating part is they think of their purity culture as European/Christian. As a European, I don't recognize any of it. My daughter has every right to wear skirts short enough to see her bottom when she bends over if she wants to. She has full bodily autonomy to go nudes at the beach or wear a bhurkini, honestly these aren't even remotely our biggest concerns about her future. We want her physically, emotionally, mentally healthy, strong and independent. Teenagers are figuring themselves out and should be given full creative license to do just that.
@ It’s so nice to hear parents respecting their kids’ autonomy! Yeah I agree, I’m not American either but I grew up in a church that had strong influence from US christianity.
The funny thing is, even people who try to follow what those American preachers and theologians say about “purity” are still nowhere near as strict as actual Americans. They think they’re following all the rules, some pride themselves on it, but they can’t replicate the reality. Pretty much the only people who do are families with at least one American parent. And the same people who take these American preachers so seriously almost always think the American families are a bit crazy! The watered down version I experienced was traumatic enough but purity culture in the US is horrific…
Oh yeah it’s always the men who see women as objects that go on about women “respecting themselves”. It’s almost like men who respect all women respect them regardless of what they wear
I remember at church once they announced a couple getting married. And the pastor yelled 'our sister is a pure virgin amen !' People yelled and praised the lord🤦🏾♀️. Not one word was said about whether the guy was also a virgin or not. It was very weird. I have many weird stories like this from church. I still believe in God but l don't do church anymore.
@@Thobela-h3x Oh gross that’s super weird of them. Meanwhile men can get away with murder, the double standard is crazy 😭 That makes a lot of sense!!! I don’t think I could cope with going back to church even if I wanted to
Don't matter how I'm dressing, I'm still going to behave like a goblin.
*Lock your windows*
Love how you were respectful about Islam! I’m Iranian and Muslim, and the way you worded it was beautiful. Feeling seen !!
I know😭😭🫶🫶
The societal judgement affects men too. Men dressing any way outside of the traditional masculine norm will be stigmatized as either gay (derogatory) or creepy perverts.
the other day i got angry at an influencer posting about how certain dresses are not modest enough for wedding guests. from what she said, you'd think she was modeling sheer clothes, but they were regular black tie dresses with cleavage. anyway, i commented something like "sorry i don't want to wear a turtleneck to a wedding" as mostly sarcasm, whoch lead to dozens of people, unfortunately mostly gen z women, calling me a wh*re in the replies and insinuating that i'd only want to wear a cleavage to seduce men at weddings. like what if i were, but tbh it's because deeper cleavages make my body more proportional and i don't get sad and insecure as i do with covered collars. i didn't really believe in modesty as a concept before this, but now i'm 1000% sure it's just a way to judge women.
also i'm against dress codes for this very reason. schools and certain workplaces uphold sexist, racist and classist stereotypes with dress codes that punish people disproportionately for not having certain hair and body types. like a woman with bigger breasts, especially a young woman at school, can be discriminated and treated as morally inferior due to her clothes not fitting the same way they do on a smaller woman? bs, same goes for black people not being able to wear their hair naturally due to a "moral" (aka racist) view on what professionalism should look like
Well if the wedding is in a church, it's not modest. But not every wedding is in a church.
So I really love modest fashion. Modesty to me is power over my body. It gives me the comfort of knowing who is allowed to see what parts of me, knowing that’s entirely my decision that no one can take away. I’m Christian, I personally don’t believe God shames his creations for displaying the bodies he gave us, but I find value in covering most of myself. I love my body, and I find a lot of strength in knowing I’ll only show it to people who will love it as much as I do. To me, modest fashion doesn’t have hard and fast rules. It’s not modest just because it’s 3 inches past my fingertips, or if the shoulder strap is as wide as my hand. Modesty is a vibe, if I feel good in it, it’s modest. If I feel uncomfortable in it, time to pick something else
The problem with wearing anything as a woman is you’re going to receive judgement for it. I know if I wore short skirts I would get shit, but I tend to also get a lot for dressing like this too. People will think I’m doing it for men or accuse me of not being a “girls girl” (???), and I’ll also get creeps who put other women down because they think I want to hear that. Women’s bodies will be policed no matter how much or how little of it is seen, and I think that’s the biggest issue that transcends beyond the concept of modesty
What was the context of being called "not a girls' girl"? That's a weird one, unless you said something that someone else understood as a judgment on their choices (whether that was your intent or not).
@ what I specifically mean by that is going shopping with a friend, and I picked up a skirt but wound up putting it back after mentioning it was shorter than I like wearing, and then getting a weird look from her. I asked what was up, and she told me she was a bit put off by commenting on the length of the skirt. I specified it was a bit short for ME, not that it was a bit short generally, but it didn’t come across I guess. She was a good person but she definitely had her own anxiety and communication issues. I don’t blame her for her defensiveness but there was no way it could’ve been taken as judgmental without actively trying to find something bad faith in my offhand comment
@Plutos_moon yeah, that's tough. I've had similar experiences.
The sad thing is modesty does not protect women. The middle east, red states, and in general ultra conservative religions has horrible sa culture issues. You do it for religious regions for your beliefs. Do not do it for men. The more conservatives you have the higher sa statistics. Covering for men is pointless.
Thanks for having a moderate and accurate approach about what is happening in Iran, many people just ignore our suffering or belittling it
Thank you for representing Islam well🫶it’s so refreshing to hear a take that has nuance when it comes to women’s modesty in Islam and not painted as a strange thing that oppresses us. I love wearing my niqab and hijab and our religion says that there is no compulsion in religion. You can’t force your religious practices on others. Thanks for clarifying that people who force women to dress a certain way in other countries who claim it’s “Islam” are not actually representative of what the faith teaches. I also love how you brought up the role of colonization, im Algerian American and in Algeria the French invaded and wanted to “westernize” us like you mentioned, effects are still shown in our country but Alhamdulilah Algeria was able to gain independence and kick out the French. Thanks for using Muslim women as the voice for Muslim women on the Islam segment! We also have modesty in speech, dress, food, vision, and other aspects in common with our Jewish brothers and sisters! 🫶May God guide and bless us all !🤲🏻
amīn
I really wish you'd expanded on the rise of modest fashion in response to the comodification of womens bodies. There have been lots of comments from revert muslims who, even if they struggle with head covering, find being intentionally more modest with clothing liberating. I also think theres something to be said about women's age and expected modesty. Ive seen those videos of mothers comparing girls and boys toddlers clothing and its actually really concerning. But also, there's somewhat of a stigma around mothers and women of a certain age dressing more risque. And also the consideration that some womens bodies are considered not modest even when they cover up because actually theres a lack of clothing that caters to them. I think theres a lot more to this discussion
This video is so interesting, thank you for talking about modesty!! I’m not a modest dresser but I love hearing about it from you
I’m glad you found it interesting! ❤
I think it’s very interesting how women have taken modesty clothing to make it work for them tbh. It makes me think of the COVID mask. Technically it’s covering your face but some people actually liked it because they didn’t have to put as much effort into their looks while wearing it. Even athletic wear may been as a woman sexualizing herself but it can actually be a way to be comfortable without too much effort.
I grew up Mormon but left the church before I had to start wearing garments. Here in Utah, there is a new work around that if youre in gym clothes you dont need to wear them, so women walk around in gym clothes 24/7 and claim they were just heading to or getting back from the gym.
This is genuinely so funny to me, Its so interesting how people will always find ways to bend the rules lol
no matter what excuses anyone tries to use, the reality is that there's a tag on your ass if you're even vaguely femme.
and sorry to anyone who thought they could work with it or cover up enough to avoid it...the tag was put there when you were born and other people(including other women) will just stick it back on.
Public or private, still property.
I don't get what you're trying to say? woman = property?
@swiitmlk yeah it's how society sees us. Theyre not saying that we're inherently property, but that's just how we've always been viewed
@@johannaelloso9418 Thank you for getting it. very grateful that critical thinking isn’t dead.
This video is so incredible, from arguments to just being respectful. Christianity is often criticised in videos and such criticism often comes across as judgey or offensive, as a practising Catholic, but yours honestly didn't come across that way at all.
I really appreciate how you adressed those arguments and how respectful you were of different people's choices; it really kept the video on track and made it really easy to follow along the course of the debate!!
♥♥♥
Fashion is always political because whether you like it or not it’s completely a way to control women and use what you wear as an excuse for grape as if elderly and children aren’t graped as well. This also strongly stems from religion , it was never women’s choice to cover their bodies head to toe in clothes including their face. They needed to as a way to deter men’s atrocities and violent sa away from them and that was the only thing they could do. It was never about self respect just oppression and control
I respectfully disagree on it always being a means to control and police women from an Islamic standpoint as a Muslim. A lot of Muslim women including myself wear hijab because we feel closer to God doing so and it is sort of our faith I’m sure Jewish women do the same for the same reasons. I also cover my face now as well, to others it might seem restricting or oppressive but I’ve never felt more free. Before I was religious I just wore whatever I thought other people wanted to see me in but at the time I thought I was doing it “for myself”. I never felt more free in hijab. I do agree with on how for a lot of people that might be the case because SA is very real and rampant and sadly some women feel so scared they have to adjust their wardrobe to feel safer but it does affect all types of women no matter what you wear.
Im muslim and im modest and i chose so. And if someone chose to not be modest that’s okay. If i want to get in the water with a lot of fabric thats my “problem”. If someone wants to get in the water with a bikini thats fine and their “problem”. Men also need to be modest in islam. Its like covering their knees to belly button
Good topic 🙏🏾
Freedom of choice 🙌🏾
Very interesting!
Thank you!
Emergency intercom AND sex in the city referenced? Hell yeah
sister ate
going topless should be illegal for all, UV ist tooooo strong and the night is too cold.
lmao so real😭
love this
I was clicking on this video ready to hear bad things about our hijab, but thank you so much for speaking up for us girly 🫶🏻🥹
no problem girly! I definitely tried to educate myself as much as possible before making this video and i believe women should get to choose how much they want to show honestly
me too lmaoooo 😭😭😭