What about albion online? Its got its premium system but you can buy it from ingame silver, and gold to silver trading can only help with money, and a well speced player can have the same power for a quater of the price. and the tradable fame tomes are inefficient that youll need 14830 usd to max out one weapon tree. ptw is only really worth it for premium
i love the Lineage 2 music in the baground from the town of DION. i am 40 now and u remind me how i liked to play mmorpgs i started with lineage 2 and when i was afk most of the times i was sitting on DION town to listen that music.. i dont know why but i can only tell u that this music transported me there with my char. a necromancer called Necronomica... ty again for ur videos. i am still searching a game to play after World of warcraft and i am still searching my next LINEAGE... where all started for me. Wish u a nice day.... BTW i can recognise that soundtrack for miles away.....
buy to play is hardly pay to win, im not paying $200 for a chance to get one of the best items for my class in say guild wars 2 for example, further more my core guardian could hyperthically deal more dps in a burst than an elite spec, while elite spec might have far more utility, and I wouldnt even consider multiple account owners like myself pay to win in guild wars 2, where a normal single account player does 1 set of weeklies Ill be legitimately working through 8 sets 1 by 1 just to get 720 gold where if someone were to farm world bosses or riba that could get the same amount for less time
@@shogenx with the way fashion wars works even if your not working it from a money perspective if you dont want to change a character look i know some people will main a class they really like and just make a new toon to dress it up with a diffrent fashion lol so they need as many slots and their brains can handle XD
right? One would think that there should be some really nicely polished mmorpgs developed within the past 10 years and yet here we are looking at the same games over and over again. Feels like that genre has fallen out of gamers interest /popularity. Instead we are being over run by crafting/survival games and various types of shooters. I wonder if the era of mmorpgs is gone forever or if we gonna se a revival. Todays new MMORPG appearances don't seem to be very combat focused and would require to spend even more time with various non combat activities. Combat has lost its focus and I would love to have a game where I can simply relax in my free time.
Hidden gems is a concept that doesn't apply to MMOs. They're extremely big, hard to develop and expensive games, its imposible to find obscure games that nobody knows about that are worth your time
@@yacinekcl Ah yes. The vida game player who knows about EVERY GAME WORLDWIDE. So they didn't need to watch the video. But for some reason thought they should comment on it.
And I've had to stop the vid half way through because so far every one he's mentioned is pay to win. He says stupid things like "You can buy in-game gold with real money, but...". Unbelievable.
@@aldrixdelosreyes1727 Yes, but you should also really consider the double pack of dlc as well (Heart of Thorns + Path of Fire) as it comes with 2 huge upgrades for each class in the form of elite specs. They may or may not be going on sale during the next steam sale so you could probably hold off for a while.
I guess because you can get Character Heroes by paying which lets you make some specific hero team builds but even that's a stretch since you can 100% the game with the Heroes you get by just playing the game.
@@m.poppins4843 A game having a P2W factor makes it p2w the only part is, how much it is. That's why u can make the comparison such as "it is p2w" or "it has p2w".
P2P is not PW2 EXCEPT when timegating exists in which case "winning" no longer is a result of you investing time into the game and becoming a better player, but rather it is a result of the time you spent subbed and how consistently you log in. Imagine having to pay your workplace just to clock in for the week. It's a very P2W form of artificial player retention and it works because people are oblivious to it. Otherwise why doesn't your sub not expire while you are offline? In BDO, if I buy a 14 day Value Pack, play for 2 days and a few hours, take a break for a week then come back, I will have exactly have a few hours short of 12 days left. But if I want to get the all the best gear in a patch cycle in FFXIV, I have to renew my sub 3 times just so I can play an hour each day/week instead of just grinding everything out in a single month.
It’s sad to think mmos are a thing of the past especially fantasy. It’s what first got me into gaming and I loved every moment, company’s see them as too much of a risk with little return and high investment that’s why nothing in 20 years has come close to the old days of wow and even that is long since past. Maybe one day, but I doubt we will ever see a huge fantasy mmo ever again.
I play GW2, about 15k hours in it with over 30k achievement points. It's 100% P2W, you can buy legendary/ascended gear (end game gear) all with gold being bought off a credit card. That's not including mount collections you can buy without having to farm it normally. You can also use the gold to buy raid clears/fractal clears/achievements. This video is really off on it's suggestion of what "p2w" is.
@@Cofreshi This is the dumbest "P2W" category/way I've seen; this is more like Pay 2 Skip time farming (which is also not a lot of time cause you can literally earn them passively playing the game) Have you people actually seen/played P2W games? True P2W are the ones where you can buy Gear or Item where non-paying players could never get (or takes like 37 million hours of playtime to get), an advantage so big it's disgustingly unfair which I also experienced back then. I've also played GW2 before and it was a breath of fresh air for me, I already caught up with the "End-Game" gear in 2 months on my first time playing, Legendary weapons doesn't really matter cuz they're more of a convenience (which I never actually needed), nobody actually gives a damn about raid clears and achievements except probably the player itself. If you buy a clearing team for your ego... then that says a lot about the player lmao. If ever there was a P2W scale of games, GW2 doesn't/barely qualifies for it compared to what I've seen and played before. I remember playing a game where I literally 1 vs x/Guilds on fights cause I was a paying player, it was so funny and disgusting.
@@Cofreshi you cant buy ascended gear lol these are account bound. Only gear you buy is legends and you can only buy legends weapons gen 1/3. Are you sure you have 15k hours lol And what mount collections? Skyscale? Without converting gems to gold you could buy raid boosts etc its in every game.
I want to note in swtor(Star Wars The Old Republic) you can pay for the subscription 1 time, gain access to the dlc content, then quit paying, and you dont lose access to the dlc. You only have to pay once.
Same here. My main acc got turned into an rs3 account. Started an osrs account when it first came back out but was too upset at losing my stats and quit. Came back a couple weeks ago and loving it
@@matthewmammothswine4395 You either didnt play it or played it very little. Game is not for everyone so if you dont like it thats fine, but you cant say its not unique because thats just false, compared to the other MMOs listed, its one of the more unique ones. Still the story is overall at about 7.5/10, which is better then most MMOs, but those games offer much more then just a story, each MMO brings something unique in terms of content and gameplay and Id say gw2 does a very good job at what its trying to do.
as a wow/new world/eso original player moving to gw2 took me maybe 150 hours, i pushed out of boredom and the game kinda unlocked in my head. things it does are meaningless in other games but are core in gw2, ive never given much care in achievements maybe title and a mount, in gw2? achievs as just 1 example, took me ages to realised the thousands of varied stories and questchains that were buried in that. i had to get over "but wow does it like so.." mindset cuz its not meant to be compared :D its just abit odd but in a nice way
Exactly. And buying gear for converted real life money should not be considered p2w. If you could buy better gear with money than the non paying player then its p2w. Time savers is not p2w.
@@Sw0nk0thie is false. It depends on the game. On lineage2, depending on expansion it can take up to 1 year or more to reach max level. If you can buy direct levels, you would be basicaly 1year ahead of most players. This would provide with highwr level resources earlier which would make you rule the market vs people who did not take the Level-boost since the game is a true sandbox and it would snowball in favour of whoever takes this boost as resources need to be farmed to go to the market. Most end game clans in lineage2 monopolize resources to be clan-only or extremely expensive to outsiders.
@@cursedshadow And that would apply if we were discussing Lineage 2, but we aren't. Most of the games on this list take less than a week to get to max level (most can be done in a day or 2). Are we really going to compare buying high level gear to save 1-2 days of time? Considering most of the people that buy level boosts are people working overtime and thus lack the time to level a character efficiently.
Lot of braindead takes. These are almost all P2W. Any advantage WHATSOEVER in a game is P2W, and it's always been that way. I don't care if there's literally only 1 MTX and it's a 5% boost to your mining speed, the games P2W. Doesn't matter if you can buy that same boost with in game gold you earn, that's not the point. It's literally always been the case, there is no P2C or P2X, there is just P2W.
Yeah, FFXIV to begin with. Def not P2W! And then lists a pay for level boost in the next sentence. 🙄 And there is def a challenge to levelling in it - there's a reason it's known as 'levelling cancer' among mmoers lol!
@@Nostromo2144 FF14 is "Pay to not fall asleep during the MSQ". (I don't play it but I looked up the amount of quests before the first dlc begins and it was somewhere around 150 depending on starting zone? Also the vast majority of those quests are fetch quests or emoting in front of NPCs and then telling other NPCs that you did it. Riveting)
MMORPGs: a growing genre with wide appeal. "Hey, lets add P2W, microtransactions, battle passes, cosmetic stores, and create problems with 'convenience' answers on the store" MMORPGs: a shrinking genre with niche appeal.
Mortal online 2 has the most integrity in terms of monetizing their game imo. 15$ sub fee, that's it. No microtransactions, no cash shop or any of that bullshit and it makes me so thankful!
it's crazy that we are in 2024 and absolutely 0 MMORPG make me wanna play it. they either don't have an interesting combat system i would enjoy, or either look crap, and if they are cool, the FOMO is over the top (i loved lost ark, but all the daily shenanigan and farming took me away from it)
@@kaanarmutcu6740 ha on my side i'm playing games for their gameplay with friends, we haven't joined any discord community XD all waiting for mh wilds rn since we all finished elden ring XD
@@DragonmindLai but it was relevant enough to put it in the video tho, bte yea i still jump in from time to time, you can find semi decent servers on hopzone
@@arkkyan there literally like 4 bots in the comments section lmao…nice try tho I think he’s jsut talking about the weird opinions and vibe in the comments…you know something that bots actually can’t achieve. Imagine thinking peon would need to pay for bot comments lmao
@@ElderSign32 bots our on every major social media platform with anyone that has a following. If you two actually think peon is hiring sex bots to grift comments…you are literally out of your mind. It’s common sense if you are above 14yrs old
If you're a MapleStory player, it's a mixture of both heavily P2W if you're in the regular server, or less P2W when in Reboot, such as buying pets to loot for you, buying an event pass for more rewards, or a booster to help boost your skills faster while you grind.
I started to include WoW Retail on p2w when the new AH mount came out. The old AH mount was a ton of gold and yes, you could get that with the token but it at least was a gold price.
SWTOR has another level of subscription. Most sub MMOS like ESO, do not allow you to play current content without the sub, basically you are subbed or not. SWTOR in the other hand has a middle grown between bof, whereas you have a lot of restrictions such as races available to create, other than that all the expansions are playable.
@@pez6905 That's what I thought. He just seems to hate WoW tokens more than OSRS bonds, so im curious why if they are essentially the same thing. Maybe they have a bigger impact on wow than osrs?
Don't forget that ZOS allows RMT through certain communities so buying gold in ESO is legal and does open avenues for immediate power that you normally wouldn't have if you haven't been playing for months. Of course, as all games, it tapers off the longer you play, assuming you're actually progressing. The best gear isn't on the auction house, but purple/gold early end-game sets will definitely set you apart from a randomly geared fresh 160. That's especially true in level 50 PVP, and its very expensive sets.
MO2 lets you create alts that give you direct advantages due to the player character limit being 1. So you have to pay money to have access to more character slots. Not entirely p2w but an aspect
Throne and Liberty is basically on the other end of Pay2Win, you can technically buy full Gear with Cash Shop Currency straight from the Auction House.
I appreciate your honestly. MO2 is, by definition, a hardcore not-P2W game, so the votes were indeed odd. I don't play MO2, but I tried it and know the culture/mentality behind it (because I played Darkfall 1 and 2 a lot, which has the same mentality). It is a sandbox PvP fantasy game (though many players are mainly crafters).
People's willingness to accept it is the great embarrassment of gamers. Every time I hear they're still making that game I say "ugh, that's so pathetic", and go back to my game.
this is the kind of people voting on that poll. talking nonsense based on whether they personally like a particular game or not. is the token P2W? yes. is the token impactful to winning in the game? no. buying a carry is not P2W because if you need to get carried you are a loser. buying materials, consumables and (some) equipment from other players is P2W but not particularly impactful since you can get all of that ingame with relatively low effort anyway. the vast majority of the best players in the game do not buy tokens, and it is generally used by bad players who think spending money will make them better.
tbh this just reflect the "asmongold" mentality, just shit on anything and then make a reactionary video on how "modern gaming is dead", people just wanna shit on things
I consider doing 18 raids a week to tap on a 1% gambling simulator also a dogshit game. But considering how you immediately treat that video for calling out true facts blind hate, you're probably one of these honers, am I right?
it might be a boomer phase where people that grew up with games but are also now growing tired of them but don't want to accept it so they need to find an external excuse to what is actually an internal issue.
Completely agree with "the problem is when you can get UNCAPPED gold". This is why I hate WoW tokens, OSRS bonds, etc. the fact that people can get infinite amounts of gold just by using their credit cards makes all economies pointless, and economy is a very important aspect of MMORPGS.
Note: You can't convert Gold to Crystal if your total Free 2 play in Guildwars 2. You need to activate your game by purchasing DLC, Just an heads up for the newer player who stumbled here searching for an MMO game. :>
@@jackzera7356 Not really, because that super casual gear you can farm up in a week of playing back in 2013 is exactly the same strength as the best gear in the game now. There's no power advantage at all. I stopped playing GW2 in 2013, hopped in last year (2023) and my Engineer was still in BIS gear. I never used the cash shop and all I did was farm casual world quest gear bought with Karma for about 2 weekends. If you really want to make the argument that I could possibly bypass something like 10 hours of gameplay once I hit max level, then sure. But even with that you're going to get that Karma anyway just clearing maps and get it for free.
@@henrychurch6062 you didnt read the comment i was replying too. They hinders your account until you buy their DLCs, therefore p2w. I have the game since start, what you mentindo about gear was what made me stop pretty fast. Shame.
@@jackzera7356 Eh, Different Strokes for different folks. IMO buying the game to access it's features isn't pay to win. Free version is the entire full base game, which I paid something like $50 for when it came out. I wouldn't expect to get things like mounts until I buy an expansion with mounts in it, for example.
No hate I just find it a bit interesting that the complaints about WoW's pay to win through the WoW token (it is pay to win, not denying it), is pretty much identical to what was described in GW2. You can buy gold, with money, or turn gold onto shop balance and vice versa. That's what the WoW token is, yet the GW2 version frames it as if it's not pay to win at all whereas WoW having the exact same system is considered P2W. I've grinded out multiple shop mounts in WoW with in game gold farming. Why is the GW2 one not P2W in that sense when it has the exact same system?
It's like being part of a cult.. for example every religion claim they are the truth but in fact they are all the same just different names and branding.. something like that.
I play neither but I assume it's down to GW2 being a horizontal game, with being able to reach end game gear in a few weeks and having that gear now be the best forever, thus making all the gold you can buy unable to be used on power systems at that point. If WoW is also like that and never adds vertical power and you can get all the end-game statted gear fairly easily then they should be treated the same.
Most of the stuff you buy in GW2 are skins, the gear does not matter, legendaries does not really make you stronger, they just look hella cool and have a status to them.
GW2 has the same system. BUT it also has completely horizontal progression. What this means is that my Engineer I played in 2013 and got full celestial gear on can come back in today and be just as geared and endgame ready as he was when I stopped playing him. New gear adds literally no actual power. So while I could use gold and buy a carry and clear whatever the endgame boss is now... the gear I get would not be superior to the gear I got him as a casual player 10 years ago. Compare that to WoW where the very best gear is quite literally locked behind Mythic Raiding clears which you can buy with gold, and then do again and again every season in perpetuity.
Lost Ark in the beginning... a true example of how a homework community + predatory practices will kill the game in the west within the next 1-2 years. The game bleeds out more and more active players per day. Thank god there is still 4-5 MMO you can always go back to.
It's a bit sad that a lot of people hate GW2 for not having a gear treadmill. That's literally the BEST PART about the game. It is 100% stress free and keeps out most of the players who have a competetive mindset, which is awesome. Pretty much everyone is super chill and the amount of sweats is extremly low usually hidden in their own speedclear statics or pvp groups.
I think I would absolutely fall in love with it if had controller support. I've played it on and off over the years and I always end up abandoning it. FFXIV, ESO and even WoW has it now to some extent. GW2 would be a blast with that feature.
@@raptorhacker599 You need to grow up and realize that technology does diminish in value the older it gets. Software will ALWAYS become unusable at some point, due to incompatibilities with modern OS's. Additionally, graphics, mechanics, and gameplay all change as the years go on, and an older game FEELS old when you jump into them. Someone mentioned it further up in the thread, but controller support is something most modern games have, while GW2 does not have it. GW2 does not have a LOT of features most modern games have. That is a great reason to not give the game a try. I actually really like the game, but sometimes it can be tough to play with how dated it is.
@@kutiskalabawtv9761 Or they have played it but come up with completely idiotic takes like saying the QoL stuff in the gem store is P2W when it's really REALLY not.
@@radiglaz Yeah, for example ESO subscription is p2w. Although I would say that the sub is so mandatory that you can't play the game for a longer period of time without it, so it's not necessarily p2w and instead just a requirement to play the game.
fallout 76 isn't a mmo why are you even bringing that pos into this conversation! theres a reason they gave it away for free like a month after launch same with that sskjl game
@@radiglaz The distinction is for egregious models that actually give you advantages in PvP situations and the product as a whole has few to no other qualities/aspects to counterbalance or overshadow the P2W aspects.
@@WhiteWolf601 I've been playing ESO without sub for 6 years now. It's only a time saver if you really don't want to spend like 5 minutes per day putting crafting mats in your bank. I bought all the DLCs with gold from other players, done most of endgame achievments, fully decorated several houses, can play PvP at the same level as people that pay for sub. Can't see how it's so mandatory. It's convenient, yes, but not even close not mandatory.
One thing I feel gets brushed over with ESO is the fact that in addition to giving you access to DLCs, the sub also supplies you with Crowns, the paid currency every month. You can use those Crowns to buy the DLC you like, then cancel the sub when you have everything you want. It's more of a temporary sub and I feel like that's a very fair and high player value approach. It's like you're getting the DLC on an affordable payment plan instead of having to just buy upfront and makes it so you can try everything before you commit to it
@@garou1911 you’re forgetting that you lose the inventory space when you’re not subbed which makes the game excessively tedious when it comes to inventory management. True you don’t NEED it but it’s extremely convenient to have (of course, since they designed it that way to make you want to stay subbed).
@@matthewmammothswine4395 I mean, that really depends on how invested in crafting you are, because it's only crafting storage you're talking about. If you are it's a thing, but you can frankly ignore crafting and buy things with currency earned in game through runs on the open marketplace and do just fine. Like, it's entirely optional to the experience IMO
One of the reasons I stopped playing MMOs was because the IQ of the average player has dropped substantially to the point where its not fun to play, like at all. They are either narcissistic psychopaths or chunk from the goonies, thats it. This video proves it. Also usually those that are the first to comment with insults are the former.
@@John_Conner222 you’re not wrong lol. From my experience playing just about every popular MMO out there, about 75-80% of players are just plain stupid. Which is about the same as in real life. I’d saying 75% of people in general are pretty dumb and can’t focus on or even think about anything other than: get up, work, spend money, sleep, do it again tomorrow.
The fact that people still cope and don't understand that wow is in fact P2W is insane lmao, if the same thing were to come with a new mmorpg it would instantly get cancelled because people have rose tinted goggles on them and can't see the fact that our beloved wow has turned p2w and has been for quite some time now.
Clear to me that the ptw goal post has moved. If you can get an advantage in game in any way with RL money, it used to be ptw. The goal post used to be cosmetic only cash shop vs any other advantage.
yes but also a lot of people here are muddying the waters that buying carries is p2w. if you're getting carried in a game, whether you paid for it or not, you are not winning and therefore it's not p2w.
The whole L2 soundtrack was just sooo good. Whenever you entered Aden, Giran or any other town/village, you just knew where you were by the soundtrack :)
ESO has a large crate selling community where the crates purchased with real money and sold for in game currency to others. Thats probably where the high percents come from with that game as you can then go to the market and purchase very high end gear
I find both the video and the comments really interesting. 10 years ago all of these games would have been considered P2W, but we’ve slowly been conditioned to accept “lesser” forms of P2W as acceptable. We’ve even redefined some of them as “pay for convenience”. Not stating whether that’s a good or a bad thing. Just noting how easy it’s been to change peoples opinions with nothing more than time 🤔
I don't consider max lvl boosts or purchaseable content as being "pay to win", that's just pay to progress, which is particularly good for games with jobs / kids who can't play invest the time anymore. The really egregious ones are where top tier gear, or stat boosts are only acquired through real world money, meaning that paying real money puts you at an advantage over someone who is willing to spend their time but not their money.
Thats why many people play private MMO servers, who are not P2W, and there is 500-5000 people online there anyway. (Depending on game, and server settings)
When making a poll like that I would suggest a 3rd option for idk or the like otherwise you will get people who haven't played it voting via how much they like the game, of course doing this wont stop all such votes but will lessen them.
While GW2 is not pay to win, because there's nothing to win, it doesn't mean the model is good. "winning" in this case is making your game less inconvenient, and you basically just spend money to do so faster/instantly. The game inconveniences you in every way, from bag and bank space, slots, material space, build/gear presets, salvage kits, gathering tools... Of course they only do that, so they can sell you the solution. It's annoying to deal with as a new player, but as a veteran who has all of that unlocked, that's not really an issue. Hell, it isn't even an issue when you look at it in isolation, having a few of those things is fine, but the issue is that they inconvenience you so so much, that there are so many things you have to buy (+ you have to buy expansions, and stories to unlock the best maps for grinding). And while you can "grind" the gold, and then convert to premium, it's incredibly boring to do same events all the time. Each event only gets you so much gold, that rewards actually feel like crap, and you need to repeat the event or set of events over and over again. TL:DR there is nothing to win in this game, the main thing is progressing horizontally, aka doing map completion, unlocking new stuff, etc. Spending money makes the progression much easier, just how in p2w vertical progression games buying power makes it much easier to progress.
It honestly doesn't feel like p2w to me. ESO on the other hand....it feels like I have to pay if I want to enjoy the game but gw2? Never felt like I need to pay to make game easier
It's P2W. You can buy gold and you need gold to unlock a lot of runes/sigils in PvP many of which are meta defining. But you will tell me I am wrong and while I am not, it in fact does not matter if the game is P2W because it's done in such a way that doesn't adversely affect you as a player rendering my argument little more than semantics.
I'm playing MMORPG's for 25 years. There are crazy huge list where I spent tons of hours in each game. Considering all that experience I state that GW2 is most casual and least p2w (even for convinience) game I've ever played. What I like is that having high casuality aspect you always may go hardcore for pvp/www or hard pve raids (this is what a lot of new people dont expect, when they hear about gw2 casuality...) ESO is close to that, but still requires much more investment that gw2, but much less, than traditional korean mmorpgs like bdo, la2, aion, bns etc. Both games are great and playable. And btw, playing them both will require less time, than i.e. BDO to be at top gear and progression.
I recently tried Star Trek Online, it's entire endgame is basically a gigantic whale pond, it's not a matter of using the cash shop to get to end game, it's a matter of the endgame being building a ship from cash shop ships and items pay walled behind obscure cashshop packs, even respeccing the skill tree requires a cash shop respec token so you cannot explore different builds for yourself. I am still unsure of the financial incentive for corporate decisions to run the game this way, but I am immediately stopping playing after experiencing this aspect and will be buying zero ships. If you have not tried this nightmare out, it is a somewhat enjoyable free experience until you hit endgame which is level 65 and then it drops onto you like a firewall.
If you're interested in it, the dev team behind Ashes of Creation does monthly development streams where they showcase different things and they post them on TH-cam.
Final Fantasy 14 monetization is a perfect example of what I would call pay to lose. Yes you can buy skis. You can advance your character without actually playing the game, but who is that helping really you’re skipping the fun part now why you would have multiple characters in a game like that I don’t know because that’s going to be multiple subscription in a game where your character can do every single jobbut if you you know, you have been through it and don’t want to do it again more part to you there’s nothing better to win about it. Everybody can get there whether they have cash or they don’t.
Something to note about SWTOR is that it's an old story-only MMO that has a very tacked-on WoW style expansion progression system. You can do, I think, every story in the game through the free mode, although it will take longer and the inventory system will be annoying. In my opinion there's no point going over level 50 in SWTOR, as it's a mindless grindfest for every second after level 50. It was made to be played for the story, then EA killed it when their stocks tanked, and then it got relauched as a sad excuse for a star wars mobile game only available on desktop PC.
You can get it in gw2 in literally few days/hours, so absolutely irrelevant to p2w there, thats why it is the least p2w game so yeah, dont know about runescape, and wow is wow xd
Gw2 simps incoming. In reality gw2 is one of the most P2w games out there. You can swipe almost everything including legendary gear. And things you can not buy, you can pay to speed-up. Hell, even old skyscale grind could be speed-up with money
so you never played wow looks like. you cant "buy any item in the game" for gold. if you want the best pvp or pve gear you HAVE to raid or do hours of pvp and saying you can "pay for ppl to boost you" is pay to win isnt true. you can do it in literly any game. the problem is peon has been on the ff14 hype train since it came out and ppl just dont like blizzard for alot of (true) reasons so they shit on wow
Trying to manage inventory space in gw2 without paying money for space upgrades is insufferable. The device are throwing a million different things at you on purpose to eat up the tiny space you have. People will counter with "use bank alts", but character slots are strictly limited (gee I wonder why) and tedious to manage. This one of many examples. GW2 is really only B2P/F2P and not P2W if you're willing to either suffer through its intentionally malicious design or grind for the premium unlocks that make the game enjoyable.
About New World. It's not directly pay to win. But if you wanna be part of a big companies, it's almost mandatory to buy gold. Crafting bis gear is not possible and you have to spend real life money to do so. Some companies are so deep in this, that they allow people play wars only if you are buying gold. If you just want to enjoy pve. Definitevly NOT pay to win. If you want to chill in PVP. Definitevly NOT pay to win. If you want to play on the highest level. Without pay to win, you're in a disadvantage and you have to just be better. 4Head
played WoW for 19 years. It is definitely P2W now, lots of boosties buying their titles and achievements if you count that winning anything, they still suck at them game tho and very easy to point out. lol
P2W comes from game systems where you pay the company to give you power, not trade money for services to other players to boost you. Sweet Jesus, y'all don't understand jack.
It was always p2w lmao my brother has been boosting people for a decade now. you are all simply crying for something that always existed as if it is new.
@@Relhio you literally give real money to blizzard to get gold to give to other players for boosts and gear. Sweet Jesus right back at you. That is p2w. People have always bought gold. But when Blizzard released the token, the game became p2w. If you don't get it I can't help you.
As someone who played lots of GW2 over the years i'm a bit 50/50 on whether it's P2W. But in the end i'd say it leans on the "not P2W" side. Mostly because there's no gear progression and it's quite easy to get the best gear anyway. It's a game where you CAN pay to skip and "win" but it's kinda not worth it since in the end whether you have the best gear or not doesn't matter too much compared to how good you are as a player and the gap between the cheap gear & the "end game" gear is very small to begin with.
I'm glad that you mentioned Lord of the Rings Online, I've been playing this game for little over a week because of the 64 bit client and european based server, it's been a breath of fresh air honestly and I'm reluctant to hop on WoW for the new expac as I'm having so much fun just taking in the Tolkien world. They did a fantastic job with their Swanfleet zone and it's just a game I wish more people gave a chance, despite it's horrendous UI and dated graphics. Like, some of the scenery in the game is just insanely good, even with the graphical limitations it's kind of insane, I've never seen ruined cities, forests, caverns and plains feel so immersive before. Maybe it's just because I enjoy older games though.
Gw2 is something I have thousands of hours in but I will also fully admit it's p2w. You can buy gold in game to directly purchase items or mats to bypass the grind giving you advantages
What do you mean? You can't get better gear than players who never spend money. If you use that money to get gear your are on the same level as players who grinded/crafted it. Advantage over players with bad gear? That's 1 matters only in specific p p version (wvw) and 2 is tdue in any game
@lorgren4002 if you can buy gear with gold that can be bought, the game is p2w. It's simple. The degree of p2w is different, since it doesn't give you a massively large advantage in pvp but it's still there. Those people who don't spend money and grind have significantly more time and effort that the swipers.
It's a massive grind but in LOTRO you can theoretically unlock everything without spending a single penny. You'll just need to create multiple characters a few times, do the deeds to earn the LOTRO points and repeat until you have enough to unlock a new area/quest pack/feature.
Apart from buying the DLC's I have never spent a dime on GW2 and never had to because anything in the shop you can get without spending money. Which is what i have done for years now.
Saying you cant consider RMT P2W even though its one of the reasons/indicators why the companies started doing this is a weird take. Especially when the number of players (buyers of gold) getting banned is basically non-existent percentage wise. Companies only ban the sellers because you cant ban you customers, right.. right?
It's easier to ban the sellers because they advertise? At least that's my impression from FFXIV. It's probably harder to prove someone bought gill on an external site.
@@cutecats532 the bots that spam the chat aren't the ones that carry the currency. Banning players is quite easy if you collect the data of transactions.
The idea that MMORPGs are dead nowadays is partly due to how many of them there are. Back in 1999-2000, there were maybe 3: UO, EQ, AC. Now the online RPG population is scattered across dozens of games.
it's not an idea, MMOs are empirically on the down low and have been for many years. check google trends, check youtube or twitch views. it is not as popular as other genres by every metric we have available. and it's not because there are too many of them, it's because these other genres are more attractive to most players. there are even more FPS games than there are MMO games and yet FPS is massively more popular.
It's more a matter of perspective. I can say, objectively, that there are more MMORPG players now than in the early 2000's. I can also say that the number of MMORPG players are growing much slower than other genre's are. I can also say that WoW has about 1/4 of the players it had during it's peak, and that's probably optimistic. So, to a WoW player it's probably a dying genre, to a Throne and Liberty player it's probably a thriving industry (for about 4 months until it settles), and for a FF14 or GW2 player it's... business as usual with a stable base. And for something weird like Warhammer Fantasy it's a confusing renaissance of private servers being more popular then the game ever was before cancelation. But end of the day, as a genre, it's growing much slower than it's peers... mostly due to upfront investment or pay to win, IMO.
@@henrychurch6062 your 1/4 claim about WoW is wrong since they recently, for the first time in a decade, released sub trends (they didn't include the actual numbers, but people managed to extrapolate it from public quarterly reports).
@@BattousaiHBr There's a TED talk about reading graphs you might benefit from reading. I've seen the extrapolations on those numbers which you're working off of and there are LOTS of assumptions being made. But even if we assume that all of them are correct, 4mil is a far cry from 12mil, and optimistically that's still 1/3 of the max. Figure in a reasonable margin of error with all those assumptions and you'll see I'm well within that.
@@henrychurch6062 the numbers i remember were more around 6m if i'm remembering right. and no, the assumptions were very safe and likely have a reasonably small margin of error (no bigger than +-20%).
@thelazypeon i think you need a "ive never played this game" option on the vote... it may be people just skipping the games they have no clue about. Idk if you added this as i voted pretty early on, but yeah lol some of those votes were crazy
P2W is not a spectrum or subjective, it's got a clear definition. Paying real money directly to the game company to gain instant power over others that don't spend money.
For some your character's cosmetic visuals are the defining factor in the game and would consider out-classing others winning. But for others cosmetic changes hold no value. How can you put a definitive label of p2w or not-p2w in that case? Sure, the cosmetics most likely give no stat bonuses. But for some the stats are secondary compared to outshining everyone else next to the auction house or mailbox. Feels like quite a spectrum to me
It absolutely is a spectrum because some boosts provide a bigger advantage. Some games provide buffs for buying their monthly subscription fee. You want to see true pay to win, then go look at a korean mmo game where enchanting you weapon can break the weapon and you can buy protections on the cash shop that literally protect the weapon from breaking. Compare that to something like cosmetics or a slightly faster mount in a game where mount speed is all buy irrelevant, and then tell me that you think they are the same.
Eso is my favorite mmo all times but without the "optional" subscription. The gale has toobmuch limitation tobbe fully enjoyable and playable. If you do not pay it wil takes you a month to do what a sub player does in a week
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What about albion online? Its got its premium system but you can buy it from ingame silver, and gold to silver trading can only help with money, and a well speced player can have the same power for a quater of the price. and the tradable fame tomes are inefficient that youll need 14830 usd to max out one weapon tree. ptw is only really worth it for premium
nice asmongold reaction clip 💯
i love the Lineage 2 music in the baground from the town of DION. i am 40 now and u remind me how i liked to play mmorpgs i started with lineage 2 and when i was afk most of the times i was sitting on DION town to listen that music.. i dont know why but i can only tell u that this music transported me there with my char. a necromancer called Necronomica... ty again for ur videos. i am still searching a game to play after World of warcraft and i am still searching my next LINEAGE... where all started for me. Wish u a nice day.... BTW i can recognise that soundtrack for miles away.....
is this lineage 2 hunters village soundtrack on video?
Walmart prepaid visa works on near everything and if the card runs dry wont charge you a over charge fee
Being B2P and P2W at the same time shouldn't even be considered a game.
Ah yes, average day for blizzard's games enjoyer
Even if it's a tiny bit P2W, then the game by definition, is P2W. It really is that simple.
buy to play is hardly pay to win, im not paying $200 for a chance to get one of the best items for my class in say guild wars 2 for example, further more my core guardian could hyperthically deal more dps in a burst than an elite spec, while elite spec might have far more utility, and I wouldnt even consider multiple account owners like myself pay to win in guild wars 2, where a normal single account player does 1 set of weeklies Ill be legitimately working through 8 sets 1 by 1 just to get 720 gold where if someone were to farm world bosses or riba that could get the same amount for less time
@@shogenx with the way fashion wars works even if your not working it from a money perspective if you dont want to change a character look i know some people will main a class they really like and just make a new toon to dress it up with a diffrent fashion lol so they need as many slots and their brains can handle XD
@@Angelvanberghen I disagree, depends what you think 'winning' is.
This video just shows how dead MMO's are. I thought I would find some hidden gem. But its all the usual suspects.
right? One would think that there should be some really nicely polished mmorpgs developed within the past 10 years and yet here we are looking at the same games over and over again. Feels like that genre has fallen out of gamers interest /popularity. Instead we are being over run by crafting/survival games and various types of shooters. I wonder if the era of mmorpgs is gone forever or if we gonna se a revival. Todays new MMORPG appearances don't seem to be very combat focused and would require to spend even more time with various non combat activities. Combat has lost its focus and I would love to have a game where I can simply relax in my free time.
Hidden gems is a concept that doesn't apply to MMOs. They're extremely big, hard to develop and expensive games, its imposible to find obscure games that nobody knows about that are worth your time
ah yes hidden MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE gem
@@yacinekcl Ah yes. The vida game player who knows about EVERY GAME WORLDWIDE. So they didn't need to watch the video. But for some reason thought they should comment on it.
right...so, the millions of people playing both WoW and FFXIV don't exist because the genre is dead
It’s a sad state within the video game industry when you have to make videos like this
fr man sometiimes i sit around and just wonder why so many modern mmos suck
We are doomed
It's a sad state within the gAmEr community when kids vote something P2W when it absolutely isn't.
And I've had to stop the vid half way through because so far every one he's mentioned is pay to win. He says stupid things like "You can buy in-game gold with real money, but...". Unbelievable.
it's because of players, companies will always try to earn as much as possible. it's players buying this shit
I just recently got back into guild wars 2 after a 5 plus year-long hiatus and I have to say it's fantastic right now
Janthir Wilds has been pretty fun so far.
Is it good for a beginner like me? Like, can I play and still have fun?
@@aldrixdelosreyes1727 Yes, but you should also really consider the double pack of dlc as well (Heart of Thorns + Path of Fire) as it comes with 2 huge upgrades for each class in the form of elite specs. They may or may not be going on sale during the next steam sale so you could probably hold off for a while.
It's a very easy game to get into. It's not super bloated like wow.
Just started today, I just got lvl 17. I am having fun exploring and doing quest and for now I am not overwhelmed by the content.
Whoever says GW1 is pay to win is beyond me. Game is a gem.
I guess because you can get Character Heroes by paying which lets you make some specific hero team builds but even that's a stretch since you can 100% the game with the Heroes you get by just playing the game.
people always find a way to say a game is pay to win even when its objectively not.
@@m.poppins4843 A game having a P2W factor makes it p2w the only part is, how much it is. That's why u can make the comparison such as "it is p2w" or "it has p2w".
Loved gw1 necro bomber for the win lol
Pay-to-Play does not equal Pay-to-Win and I think that's where a lot of your voters are getting it wrong.
I think that was just ignorant voting, and down-voting a game because they didn't like it.
everyone knows that, people are voting based on whether they dislike the game or not.
P2P is not PW2 EXCEPT when timegating exists in which case "winning" no longer is a result of you investing time into the game and becoming a better player, but rather it is a result of the time you spent subbed and how consistently you log in. Imagine having to pay your workplace just to clock in for the week. It's a very P2W form of artificial player retention and it works because people are oblivious to it. Otherwise why doesn't your sub not expire while you are offline? In BDO, if I buy a 14 day Value Pack, play for 2 days and a few hours, take a break for a week then come back, I will have exactly have a few hours short of 12 days left. But if I want to get the all the best gear in a patch cycle in FFXIV, I have to renew my sub 3 times just so I can play an hour each day/week instead of just grinding everything out in a single month.
It’s sad to think mmos are a thing of the past especially fantasy. It’s what first got me into gaming and I loved every moment, company’s see them as too much of a risk with little return and high investment that’s why nothing in 20 years has come close to the old days of wow and even that is long since past. Maybe one day, but I doubt we will ever see a huge fantasy mmo ever again.
Good ol' GW2.
One of the best to ever do it
was never good idk why people still act like it is or ever was
@@n9ne because it is to the million people that have played it since launch. You're in the minority
@@n9ne If you dont like its okay, but its your problem. Gw2 is a very popular and beloved mmo
@@n9ne How to say stupid without saying you're stupid.
Lol the people who are voting that dont actually play the game are the types to argue just for the sake of arguing.
I play GW2, about 15k hours in it with over 30k achievement points. It's 100% P2W, you can buy legendary/ascended gear (end game gear) all with gold being bought off a credit card. That's not including mount collections you can buy without having to farm it normally. You can also use the gold to buy raid clears/fractal clears/achievements. This video is really off on it's suggestion of what "p2w" is.
@@Cofreshi Literally everything in life is pay2win in some form or another. EVERYTHING has a price, even ur mum.
@@vilxxblack2472 doesn't make it any less p2w. Useless comment
@@Cofreshi This is the dumbest "P2W" category/way I've seen; this is more like Pay 2 Skip time farming (which is also not a lot of time cause you can literally earn them passively playing the game)
Have you people actually seen/played P2W games? True P2W are the ones where you can buy Gear or Item where non-paying players could never get (or takes like 37 million hours of playtime to get), an advantage so big it's disgustingly unfair which I also experienced back then.
I've also played GW2 before and it was a breath of fresh air for me, I already caught up with the "End-Game" gear in 2 months on my first time playing, Legendary weapons doesn't really matter cuz they're more of a convenience (which I never actually needed), nobody actually gives a damn about raid clears and achievements except probably the player itself. If you buy a clearing team for your ego... then that says a lot about the player lmao.
If ever there was a P2W scale of games, GW2 doesn't/barely qualifies for it compared to what I've seen and played before. I remember playing a game where I literally 1 vs x/Guilds on fights cause I was a paying player, it was so funny and disgusting.
@@Cofreshi you cant buy ascended gear lol these are account bound. Only gear you buy is legends and you can only buy legends weapons gen 1/3. Are you sure you have 15k hours lol And what mount collections? Skyscale? Without converting gems to gold you could buy raid boosts etc its in every game.
One thing missing about FFXIV is that you can play up to the 3rd expansion for free which amounts to basically half of the main story.
Some say it’s “critically acclaimed”
I want to note in swtor(Star Wars The Old Republic) you can pay for the subscription 1 time, gain access to the dlc content, then quit paying, and you dont lose access to the dlc. You only have to pay once.
just came back to osrs after 6 year break... having the greatest time i ever had
Same here. My main acc got turned into an rs3 account. Started an osrs account when it first came back out but was too upset at losing my stats and quit. Came back a couple weeks ago and loving it
Same I made an iron-man 2 months ago. Best thing I ever did. Feels like 2005 all over again.
Can literally buy in game gold with real money.
I have tried to get into GW2 so many times. Everything so far I liked, but I can't keep at it. 😮
its cause its generic fantasy fluff. Absolutely zero interesting style or uniqueness to the game.
@@matthewmammothswine4395 Have you like... looked at the game?
@@matthewmammothswine4395 You either didnt play it or played it very little. Game is not for everyone so if you dont like it thats fine, but you cant say its not unique because thats just false, compared to the other MMOs listed, its one of the more unique ones. Still the story is overall at about 7.5/10, which is better then most MMOs, but those games offer much more then just a story, each MMO brings something unique in terms of content and gameplay and Id say gw2 does a very good job at what its trying to do.
@@matthewmammothswine4395 Now that's just wrong.
as a wow/new world/eso original player moving to gw2 took me maybe 150 hours, i pushed out of boredom and the game kinda unlocked in my head. things it does are meaningless in other games but are core in gw2, ive never given much care in achievements maybe title and a mount, in gw2? achievs as just 1 example, took me ages to realised the thousands of varied stories and questchains that were buried in that. i had to get over "but wow does it like so.." mindset cuz its not meant to be compared :D its just abit odd but in a nice way
P2W is literally paying for an advantage over another player.
Exactly. And buying gear for converted real life money should not be considered p2w. If you could buy better gear with money than the non paying player then its p2w. Time savers is not p2w.
time saving is an advantage, thus time saving is p2w
@@Sw0nk0thie is false. It depends on the game.
On lineage2, depending on expansion it can take up to 1 year or more to reach max level. If you can buy direct levels, you would be basicaly 1year ahead of most players. This would provide with highwr level resources earlier which would make you rule the market vs people who did not take the Level-boost since the game is a true sandbox and it would snowball in favour of whoever takes this boost as resources need to be farmed to go to the market. Most end game clans in lineage2 monopolize resources to be clan-only or extremely expensive to outsiders.
@@cursedshadow And that would apply if we were discussing Lineage 2, but we aren't. Most of the games on this list take less than a week to get to max level (most can be done in a day or 2). Are we really going to compare buying high level gear to save 1-2 days of time? Considering most of the people that buy level boosts are people working overtime and thus lack the time to level a character efficiently.
Well done Timmy
Love me some GW2!
Hey it's my main character from Guild Wars 2 on the thumbnail of your video! WOW! Im honored, thanks man!
lotta braindead votes lmao
Lot of braindead takes. These are almost all P2W. Any advantage WHATSOEVER in a game is P2W, and it's always been that way. I don't care if there's literally only 1 MTX and it's a 5% boost to your mining speed, the games P2W. Doesn't matter if you can buy that same boost with in game gold you earn, that's not the point.
It's literally always been the case, there is no P2C or P2X, there is just P2W.
LA pay to win? Kek.
Yeah, FFXIV to begin with. Def not P2W! And then lists a pay for level boost in the next sentence. 🙄 And there is def a challenge to levelling in it - there's a reason it's known as 'levelling cancer' among mmoers lol!
@@PherPhurcool now after you have trauma dumped maybe your mind will be clear. Now read the title of the video again.
@@Nostromo2144 FF14 is "Pay to not fall asleep during the MSQ". (I don't play it but I looked up the amount of quests before the first dlc begins and it was somewhere around 150 depending on starting zone? Also the vast majority of those quests are fetch quests or emoting in front of NPCs and then telling other NPCs that you did it. Riveting)
The least garbage MMORPGs 2024 should have been the title, it's a race to the bottom when it comes to this genre.
video stats at 3:05
The GOAT
MMORPGs: a growing genre with wide appeal.
"Hey, lets add P2W, microtransactions, battle passes, cosmetic stores, and create problems with 'convenience' answers on the store"
MMORPGs: a shrinking genre with niche appeal.
Mortal online 2 has the most integrity in terms of monetizing their game imo. 15$ sub fee, that's it. No microtransactions, no cash shop or any of that bullshit and it makes me so thankful!
Game is wickedly hard to. A good one. Played at launch.
Ya brutal to solo:( can you play 3rd person yet?
it's crazy that we are in 2024 and absolutely 0 MMORPG make me wanna play it. they either don't have an interesting combat system i would enjoy, or either look crap, and if they are cool, the FOMO is over the top (i loved lost ark, but all the daily shenanigan and farming took me away from it)
sounds like the issue is in your approach to them, but ok
that sounds like you dont want to play an mmorpg lmao
@@kaanarmutcu6740 i just need an online souls like, but i guess i'm gonna have to wait till mh wilds before finally getting another good coop game t_t
@@mathieu499 to be fair mhw will be my go to aswell. But we dont play mmorpgs to play a game like souls its to play a game with a community
@@kaanarmutcu6740 ha on my side i'm playing games for their gameplay with friends, we haven't joined any discord community XD all waiting for mh wilds rn since we all finished elden ring XD
now i wanna see the most P2W games.
Wow, Black Desert, Lost Ark, Diablo Immor(t)al and many many more.
Black Desert and retail WoW are the most P2W of the MMOs I know.
Just insert just about any Asian title, LOL
Sadly, I'd add Rift, and AION to that list. Especially if you're just starting out and don't have one Max level character already.
This really show how "accurate" internet polls are 😅
Internet polls from MMOs players 👀
A lot of players are oblivious to the features of their own game that would be considered P2W. It's honestly fair to say that they're "asleep".
Maybe they are confused between P2W and P2P
I'm just here to give some love to the Dion Theme ost on the background 🖤
i come to the conclusion some people consider games pay to win if u have to buy the game with money or pay a subscription to play it lol
Can't win in a game you can't play ;)
/s
Never heard anyone in my 15 years full-time on the internet ever say that, you're probably confusing it with in-game subscriptions.
Thank you! Great review.
Having chapters would have been helpful
Its a crime to have Lineage 2 appear in the video and not being mentioned...
It appeared as the most p2w game out there xD
@@aBait. maybe now, but it never was before, ppl massively stopped playing after interlude and more advanced chronicles anyway.
@@dantegw indeed, which is why it's not relevant on today's mmo menu. Wonder if there's some decent private servers still around though~
@@DragonmindLai but it was relevant enough to put it in the video tho, bte yea i still jump in from time to time, you can find semi decent servers on hopzone
Love the Dion Town background music being in almost every one of your videos! 🥰 It's an absolute banger!
The comments for this video are weird
He's botting comments for sure
@@arkkyan there literally like 4 bots in the comments section lmao…nice try tho I think he’s jsut talking about the weird opinions and vibe in the comments…you know something that bots actually can’t achieve. Imagine thinking peon would need to pay for bot comments lmao
@@Lalaafastroli there are bots in the comment section, I highlighted that. Chill dude, put the white knight sword away 🤣
@@Lalaafastroli bots make up the majority of internet traffic. you have no idea what you're talking about
@@ElderSign32 bots our on every major social media platform with anyone that has a following. If you two actually think peon is hiring sex bots to grift comments…you are literally out of your mind. It’s common sense if you are above 14yrs old
If you're a MapleStory player, it's a mixture of both heavily P2W if you're in the regular server, or less P2W when in Reboot, such as buying pets to loot for you, buying an event pass for more rewards, or a booster to help boost your skills faster while you grind.
I saw the video title and said "oh it's gonna be gw2 isn't it"
yes
I started to include WoW Retail on p2w when the new AH mount came out. The old AH mount was a ton of gold and yes, you could get that with the token but it at least was a gold price.
Wow, that's crazy so many people want to hate on Embers Adrift. It's a small team with ZERO monitazation. What is people's issue there?
The list is endless
SWTOR has another level of subscription. Most sub MMOS like ESO, do not allow you to play current content without the sub, basically you are subbed or not. SWTOR in the other hand has a middle grown between bof, whereas you have a lot of restrictions such as races available to create, other than that all the expansions are playable.
What's the difference between WoW tokens and OSRS bonds?
Nothing
@@pez6905 That's what I thought. He just seems to hate WoW tokens more than OSRS bonds, so im curious why if they are essentially the same thing. Maybe they have a bigger impact on wow than osrs?
Like he said in the video, gear in osrs have requirements like quests or something so that might be the difference, not sure @@nugenesis69420
You can enable Ironman Mode when you start OSRS to disable bonds.
@@graymagicgamma7247 and you can just not buy WoW tokens. Literally the same thing. Self imposing a rule doesn’t change the matter of fact.
Don't forget that ZOS allows RMT through certain communities so buying gold in ESO is legal and does open avenues for immediate power that you normally wouldn't have if you haven't been playing for months. Of course, as all games, it tapers off the longer you play, assuming you're actually progressing. The best gear isn't on the auction house, but purple/gold early end-game sets will definitely set you apart from a randomly geared fresh 160. That's especially true in level 50 PVP, and its very expensive sets.
that dion music though
MO2 lets you create alts that give you direct advantages due to the player character limit being 1. So you have to pay money to have access to more character slots. Not entirely p2w but an aspect
Big like for the Lineage 2 music in the background
Throne and Liberty is basically on the other end of Pay2Win, you can technically buy full Gear with Cash Shop Currency straight from the Auction House.
it's sad how little good rpgs/mmorpgs we are getting lately.
"Lately"? It's been 20 years brah
I appreciate your honestly. MO2 is, by definition, a hardcore not-P2W game, so the votes were indeed odd.
I don't play MO2, but I tried it and know the culture/mentality behind it (because I played Darkfall 1 and 2 a lot, which has the same mentality). It is a sandbox PvP fantasy game (though many players are mainly crafters).
Video is always a W when there's Lineage 2 background music.
Great video! Enjoyed the list & ranking/explanation
Wow token is literally legalized uncapped RMT, it's high tier p2w on top of sub, doesn't even make sense to be on this list.
So are Runescape bonds
@@MajinBuusni Yes, you are totally right, but i think he specified HC SSF only.
Totally agree, uncapped RL spending for the best gear in the game from Mythic+.
People's willingness to accept it is the great embarrassment of gamers. Every time I hear they're still making that game I say "ugh, that's so pathetic", and go back to my game.
this is the kind of people voting on that poll. talking nonsense based on whether they personally like a particular game or not.
is the token P2W? yes.
is the token impactful to winning in the game? no.
buying a carry is not P2W because if you need to get carried you are a loser.
buying materials, consumables and (some) equipment from other players is P2W but not particularly impactful since you can get all of that ingame with relatively low effort anyway. the vast majority of the best players in the game do not buy tokens, and it is generally used by bad players who think spending money will make them better.
I love how you put classic L2 theme songs as a background music.
Just love it
That Lineage 2 soundtrack 🥲
Would love to see more in the hardcore wow series! Do you plan on continuing that in the future?
tbh this just reflect the "asmongold" mentality, just shit on anything and then make a reactionary video on how "modern gaming is dead", people just wanna shit on things
Very true. And may I add not just in video games but everywhere else. Shitting on things brings anger, passion and views = 💰
I consider doing 18 raids a week to tap on a 1% gambling simulator also a dogshit game.
But considering how you immediately treat that video for calling out true facts blind hate, you're probably one of these honers, am I right?
it might be a boomer phase where people that grew up with games but are also now growing tired of them but don't want to accept it so they need to find an external excuse to what is actually an internal issue.
Completely agree with "the problem is when you can get UNCAPPED gold". This is why I hate WoW tokens, OSRS bonds, etc. the fact that people can get infinite amounts of gold just by using their credit cards makes all economies pointless, and economy is a very important aspect of MMORPGS.
saying it makes the economy "pointless" is hyperbole but yeah i agree too.
Can someone please tell me what game is at 12:29?
Final Fantasy XIV
Note: You can't convert Gold to Crystal if your total Free 2 play in Guildwars 2. You need to activate your game by purchasing DLC, Just an heads up for the newer player who stumbled here searching for an MMO game. :>
Therefore, p2w.
@@jackzera7356 Not really, because that super casual gear you can farm up in a week of playing back in 2013 is exactly the same strength as the best gear in the game now. There's no power advantage at all. I stopped playing GW2 in 2013, hopped in last year (2023) and my Engineer was still in BIS gear.
I never used the cash shop and all I did was farm casual world quest gear bought with Karma for about 2 weekends.
If you really want to make the argument that I could possibly bypass something like 10 hours of gameplay once I hit max level, then sure. But even with that you're going to get that Karma anyway just clearing maps and get it for free.
@@henrychurch6062 you didnt read the comment i was replying too. They hinders your account until you buy their DLCs, therefore p2w. I have the game since start, what you mentindo about gear was what made me stop pretty fast. Shame.
@@jackzera7356 Eh, Different Strokes for different folks. IMO buying the game to access it's features isn't pay to win. Free version is the entire full base game, which I paid something like $50 for when it came out.
I wouldn't expect to get things like mounts until I buy an expansion with mounts in it, for example.
No hate I just find it a bit interesting that the complaints about WoW's pay to win through the WoW token (it is pay to win, not denying it), is pretty much identical to what was described in GW2. You can buy gold, with money, or turn gold onto shop balance and vice versa. That's what the WoW token is, yet the GW2 version frames it as if it's not pay to win at all whereas WoW having the exact same system is considered P2W. I've grinded out multiple shop mounts in WoW with in game gold farming. Why is the GW2 one not P2W in that sense when it has the exact same system?
It's like being part of a cult.. for example every religion claim they are the truth but in fact they are all the same just different names and branding.. something like that.
I play neither but I assume it's down to GW2 being a horizontal game, with being able to reach end game gear in a few weeks and having that gear now be the best forever, thus making all the gold you can buy unable to be used on power systems at that point. If WoW is also like that and never adds vertical power and you can get all the end-game statted gear fairly easily then they should be treated the same.
Most of the stuff you buy in GW2 are skins, the gear does not matter, legendaries does not really make you stronger, they just look hella cool and have a status to them.
GW2 has the same system. BUT it also has completely horizontal progression.
What this means is that my Engineer I played in 2013 and got full celestial gear on can come back in today and be just as geared and endgame ready as he was when I stopped playing him. New gear adds literally no actual power.
So while I could use gold and buy a carry and clear whatever the endgame boss is now... the gear I get would not be superior to the gear I got him as a casual player 10 years ago.
Compare that to WoW where the very best gear is quite literally locked behind Mythic Raiding clears which you can buy with gold, and then do again and again every season in perpetuity.
Are you stupid? YOU CAN BUY GOLD WITH WOW TOKEN AND THEN SPEND THAT GOLD WITH BOOST TO GET THE BEST GEAR, THAT'S ESSENTIALY P2W
Lost Ark in the beginning... a true example of how a homework community + predatory practices will kill the game in the west within the next 1-2 years.
The game bleeds out more and more active players per day.
Thank god there is still 4-5 MMO you can always go back to.
Ahhh that nostalgic L2 music❤
It's a bit sad that a lot of people hate GW2 for not having a gear treadmill. That's literally the BEST PART about the game. It is 100% stress free and keeps out most of the players who have a competetive mindset, which is awesome. Pretty much everyone is super chill and the amount of sweats is extremly low usually hidden in their own speedclear statics or pvp groups.
GW2 is incredible and all of you owe it to yourselves to try it
@@JakaKeela u need to grow up and realise that just something being old doesnt always diminish its value. the game is more alive than ever.
I think I would absolutely fall in love with it if had controller support. I've played it on and off over the years and I always end up abandoning it. FFXIV, ESO and even WoW has it now to some extent. GW2 would be a blast with that feature.
@@raptorhacker599The game only runs on one core, doesn't matter how good your pc is, it will lag like hell in meta events.
@@JakaKeelaa new expansion released 2 days ago. Janthir Wilds. Game is poping
@@raptorhacker599 You need to grow up and realize that technology does diminish in value the older it gets. Software will ALWAYS become unusable at some point, due to incompatibilities with modern OS's. Additionally, graphics, mechanics, and gameplay all change as the years go on, and an older game FEELS old when you jump into them. Someone mentioned it further up in the thread, but controller support is something most modern games have, while GW2 does not have it. GW2 does not have a LOT of features most modern games have. That is a great reason to not give the game a try.
I actually really like the game, but sometimes it can be tough to play with how dated it is.
The voting form needs to be changed where if someone hasn't played or knows about a certain game, they can vote "I don't know" or skip the question.
GW2 hands down one of the best under rated MMOs.
I Agree no P2W and only people who never played the game will say the opposite.
@@kutiskalabawtv9761 Or they have played it but come up with completely idiotic takes like saying the QoL stuff in the gem store is P2W when it's really REALLY not.
Its brought up constantly
It's not underrated
People just dont like it as much as you think
@@alexartiles9756 Yeah because people like great graphics like korean MMO and they will say P2W.
You will Always get a like bud for using legendary Lineage 2 music in background. You rock Peon! ❤
SWTOR, LotRO and ESO may not be "pay to win" but they are 100% "pay for convenience". Same with FO76.
Pay for convenience is p2w. Stop making this distinction, it's dumb. Convenience is an advantage in 90% of cases.
@@radiglaz Yeah, for example ESO subscription is p2w. Although I would say that the sub is so mandatory that you can't play the game for a longer period of time without it, so it's not necessarily p2w and instead just a requirement to play the game.
fallout 76 isn't a mmo why are you even bringing that pos into this conversation! theres a reason they gave it away for free like a month after launch same with that sskjl game
@@radiglaz The distinction is for egregious models that actually give you advantages in PvP situations and the product as a whole has few to no other qualities/aspects to counterbalance or overshadow the P2W aspects.
@@WhiteWolf601 I've been playing ESO without sub for 6 years now. It's only a time saver if you really don't want to spend like 5 minutes per day putting crafting mats in your bank. I bought all the DLCs with gold from other players, done most of endgame achievments, fully decorated several houses, can play PvP at the same level as people that pay for sub. Can't see how it's so mandatory. It's convenient, yes, but not even close not mandatory.
One thing I feel gets brushed over with ESO is the fact that in addition to giving you access to DLCs, the sub also supplies you with Crowns, the paid currency every month. You can use those Crowns to buy the DLC you like, then cancel the sub when you have everything you want. It's more of a temporary sub and I feel like that's a very fair and high player value approach. It's like you're getting the DLC on an affordable payment plan instead of having to just buy upfront and makes it so you can try everything before you commit to it
@@garou1911 you’re forgetting that you lose the inventory space when you’re not subbed which makes the game excessively tedious when it comes to inventory management. True you don’t NEED it but it’s extremely convenient to have (of course, since they designed it that way to make you want to stay subbed).
@@matthewmammothswine4395 I mean, that really depends on how invested in crafting you are, because it's only crafting storage you're talking about. If you are it's a thing, but you can frankly ignore crafting and buy things with currency earned in game through runs on the open marketplace and do just fine. Like, it's entirely optional to the experience IMO
One of the reasons I stopped playing MMOs was because the IQ of the average player has dropped substantially to the point where its not fun to play, like at all. They are either narcissistic psychopaths or chunk from the goonies, thats it. This video proves it. Also usually those that are the first to comment with insults are the former.
@@John_Conner222 you’re not wrong lol. From my experience playing just about every popular MMO out there, about 75-80% of players are just plain stupid. Which is about the same as in real life. I’d saying 75% of people in general are pretty dumb and can’t focus on or even think about anything other than: get up, work, spend money, sleep, do it again tomorrow.
The fact that people still cope and don't understand that wow is in fact P2W is insane lmao, if the same thing were to come with a new mmorpg it would instantly get cancelled because people have rose tinted goggles on them and can't see the fact that our beloved wow has turned p2w and has been for quite some time now.
damn.. the Lineage 2 soundtrack in the background....
Clear to me that the ptw goal post has moved. If you can get an advantage in game in any way with RL money, it used to be ptw. The goal post used to be cosmetic only cash shop vs any other advantage.
Yeah, if you waste real money, is already p2w. Doesnt matter if it was cosmetic or not, the free2player wont be able to get it, therefore its p2w.
yes but also a lot of people here are muddying the waters that buying carries is p2w.
if you're getting carried in a game, whether you paid for it or not, you are not winning and therefore it's not p2w.
I missed Lineage 2. Dion theme(shepherds flute) always takes me to the memory lane.
The whole L2 soundtrack was just sooo good. Whenever you entered Aden, Giran or any other town/village, you just knew where you were by the soundtrack :)
@@kubapuchalski8633 Good ol' days :)
ESO has a large crate selling community where the crates purchased with real money and sold for in game currency to others. Thats probably where the high percents come from with that game as you can then go to the market and purchase very high end gear
If a game has a cash shop that sells anything other than cosmetic items, it’s pay to win….
I find both the video and the comments really interesting. 10 years ago all of these games would have been considered P2W, but we’ve slowly been conditioned to accept “lesser” forms of P2W as acceptable. We’ve even redefined some of them as “pay for convenience”.
Not stating whether that’s a good or a bad thing. Just noting how easy it’s been to change peoples opinions with nothing more than time 🤔
"all" of these games? did you watch the video?
several of the games listed have 0 p2w.
I don't consider max lvl boosts or purchaseable content as being "pay to win", that's just pay to progress, which is particularly good for games with jobs / kids who can't play invest the time anymore. The really egregious ones are where top tier gear, or stat boosts are only acquired through real world money, meaning that paying real money puts you at an advantage over someone who is willing to spend their time but not their money.
Thats why many people play private MMO servers, who are not P2W, and there is 500-5000 people online there anyway. (Depending on game, and server settings)
For Star Wars The Old Republic, subscribing just once gives you access to all expansions, not need to buy them. I think it's worth it.
@@NelsonPimenta93 sadly swtor is dead, they don’t make any new content, only cash shop items.
@@matthewmammothswine4395 the game is not dead, they already said they are going to add expansion in end of 2024/25
@@Hezzai you need to give me the drugs you’re on if you think swtor is getting another expansion
@@matthewmammothswine4395 okay take the drugs, go to see on their roadmap, they already said that
@@matthewmammothswine4395 the game is not dead, they already said they are going to add expansion in end of 2024/25
When making a poll like that I would suggest a 3rd option for idk or the like otherwise you will get people who haven't played it voting via how much they like the game, of course doing this wont stop all such votes but will lessen them.
While GW2 is not pay to win, because there's nothing to win, it doesn't mean the model is good.
"winning" in this case is making your game less inconvenient, and you basically just spend money to do so faster/instantly.
The game inconveniences you in every way, from bag and bank space, slots, material space, build/gear presets, salvage kits, gathering tools...
Of course they only do that, so they can sell you the solution. It's annoying to deal with as a new player, but as a veteran who has all of that unlocked, that's not really an issue. Hell, it isn't even an issue when you look at it in isolation, having a few of those things is fine, but the issue is that they inconvenience you so so much, that there are so many things you have to buy (+ you have to buy expansions, and stories to unlock the best maps for grinding).
And while you can "grind" the gold, and then convert to premium, it's incredibly boring to do same events all the time. Each event only gets you so much gold, that rewards actually feel like crap, and you need to repeat the event or set of events over and over again.
TL:DR there is nothing to win in this game, the main thing is progressing horizontally, aka doing map completion, unlocking new stuff, etc. Spending money makes the progression much easier, just how in p2w vertical progression games buying power makes it much easier to progress.
It honestly doesn't feel like p2w to me. ESO on the other hand....it feels like I have to pay if I want to enjoy the game but gw2? Never felt like I need to pay to make game easier
It's P2W. You can buy gold and you need gold to unlock a lot of runes/sigils in PvP many of which are meta defining. But you will tell me I am wrong and while I am not, it in fact does not matter if the game is P2W because it's done in such a way that doesn't adversely affect you as a player rendering my argument little more than semantics.
@@lorgren4002 bruh
I'm playing MMORPG's for 25 years. There are crazy huge list where I spent tons of hours in each game. Considering all that experience I state that GW2 is most casual and least p2w (even for convinience) game I've ever played. What I like is that having high casuality aspect you always may go hardcore for pvp/www or hard pve raids (this is what a lot of new people dont expect, when they hear about gw2 casuality...)
ESO is close to that, but still requires much more investment that gw2, but much less, than traditional korean mmorpgs like bdo, la2, aion, bns etc. Both games are great and playable. And btw, playing them both will require less time, than i.e. BDO to be at top gear and progression.
I recently tried Star Trek Online, it's entire endgame is basically a gigantic whale pond, it's not a matter of using the cash shop to get to end game, it's a matter of the endgame being building a ship from cash shop ships and items pay walled behind obscure cashshop packs, even respeccing the skill tree requires a cash shop respec token so you cannot explore different builds for yourself. I am still unsure of the financial incentive for corporate decisions to run the game this way, but I am immediately stopping playing after experiencing this aspect and will be buying zero ships. If you have not tried this nightmare out, it is a somewhat enjoyable free experience until you hit endgame which is level 65 and then it drops onto you like a firewall.
0:21 what game is that?
Black desert online
@@loqic939 no, it isn't
if you're going to answer, please give a REAL answer
@@dragonriderabens9761 yeah sorry there, 2 games at 21 secs =}, it’s ashes of creation but games not out yet, just in alpha phases from time to time
@@loqic939 thank you
sorry, thought you were trolling, give how it was very obviously not BDO where you were playing as a dragon siegeing a keep ^^;
If you're interested in it, the dev team behind Ashes of Creation does monthly development streams where they showcase different things and they post them on TH-cam.
Final Fantasy 14 monetization is a perfect example of what I would call pay to lose. Yes you can buy skis. You can advance your character without actually playing the game, but who is that helping really you’re skipping the fun part now why you would have multiple characters in a game like that I don’t know because that’s going to be multiple subscription in a game where your character can do every single jobbut if you you know, you have been through it and don’t want to do it again more part to you there’s nothing better to win about it. Everybody can get there whether they have cash or they don’t.
Peon who from your team was playing lineage 2? Who include l2 music in every video :)
It is literally one of best game soundtracks ever made. I have a friend who never played L2 in is life and he knows the music.
Something to note about SWTOR is that it's an old story-only MMO that has a very tacked-on WoW style expansion progression system. You can do, I think, every story in the game through the free mode, although it will take longer and the inventory system will be annoying. In my opinion there's no point going over level 50 in SWTOR, as it's a mindless grindfest for every second after level 50. It was made to be played for the story, then EA killed it when their stocks tanked, and then it got relauched as a sad excuse for a star wars mobile game only available on desktop PC.
wow, runescape, and gw2, 3 games where you can buy gold and get any item in the game are on the list of "least p2w"
what
You can get it in gw2 in literally few days/hours, so absolutely irrelevant to p2w there, thats why it is the least p2w game so yeah, dont know about runescape, and wow is wow xd
Gw2 simps incoming. In reality gw2 is one of the most P2w games out there. You can swipe almost everything including legendary gear. And things you can not buy, you can pay to speed-up.
Hell, even old skyscale grind could be speed-up with money
so you never played wow looks like. you cant "buy any item in the game" for gold. if you want the best pvp or pve gear you HAVE to raid or do hours of pvp and saying you can "pay for ppl to boost you" is pay to win isnt true. you can do it in literly any game. the problem is peon has been on the ff14 hype train since it came out and ppl just dont like blizzard for alot of (true) reasons so they shit on wow
Trying to manage inventory space in gw2 without paying money for space upgrades is insufferable. The device are throwing a million different things at you on purpose to eat up the tiny space you have. People will counter with "use bank alts", but character slots are strictly limited (gee I wonder why) and tedious to manage. This one of many examples. GW2 is really only B2P/F2P and not P2W if you're willing to either suffer through its intentionally malicious design or grind for the premium unlocks that make the game enjoyable.
Devs* not device
About New World. It's not directly pay to win. But if you wanna be part of a big companies, it's almost mandatory to buy gold. Crafting bis gear is not possible and you have to spend real life money to do so. Some companies are so deep in this, that they allow people play wars only if you are buying gold.
If you just want to enjoy pve. Definitevly NOT pay to win.
If you want to chill in PVP. Definitevly NOT pay to win.
If you want to play on the highest level. Without pay to win, you're in a disadvantage and you have to just be better. 4Head
played WoW for 19 years. It is definitely P2W now, lots of boosties buying their titles and achievements if you count that winning anything, they still suck at them game tho and very easy to point out. lol
P2W comes from game systems where you pay the company to give you power, not trade money for services to other players to boost you. Sweet Jesus, y'all don't understand jack.
It was always p2w lmao my brother has been boosting people for a decade now. you are all simply crying for something that always existed as if it is new.
@@Relhio you literally give real money to blizzard to get gold to give to other players for boosts and gear. Sweet Jesus right back at you. That is p2w. People have always bought gold. But when Blizzard released the token, the game became p2w. If you don't get it I can't help you.
As someone who played lots of GW2 over the years i'm a bit 50/50 on whether it's P2W. But in the end i'd say it leans on the "not P2W" side. Mostly because there's no gear progression and it's quite easy to get the best gear anyway.
It's a game where you CAN pay to skip and "win" but it's kinda not worth it since in the end whether you have the best gear or not doesn't matter too much compared to how good you are as a player and the gap between the cheap gear & the "end game" gear is very small to begin with.
WoW and Classic WoW is super pay2win. Just buy Wow tokens and buy gold and you buy the best gears. That's what people are doing.
buying a carry is not P2W, it's pay to be a loser.
I'm glad that you mentioned Lord of the Rings Online, I've been playing this game for little over a week because of the 64 bit client and european based server, it's been a breath of fresh air honestly and I'm reluctant to hop on WoW for the new expac as I'm having so much fun just taking in the Tolkien world. They did a fantastic job with their Swanfleet zone and it's just a game I wish more people gave a chance, despite it's horrendous UI and dated graphics. Like, some of the scenery in the game is just insanely good, even with the graphical limitations it's kind of insane, I've never seen ruined cities, forests, caverns and plains feel so immersive before. Maybe it's just because I enjoy older games though.
Gw2 is something I have thousands of hours in but I will also fully admit it's p2w. You can buy gold in game to directly purchase items or mats to bypass the grind giving you advantages
What do you mean? You can't get better gear than players who never spend money. If you use that money to get gear your are on the same level as players who grinded/crafted it. Advantage over players with bad gear? That's 1 matters only in specific p p version (wvw) and 2 is tdue in any game
@lorgren4002 if you can buy gear with gold that can be bought, the game is p2w. It's simple. The degree of p2w is different, since it doesn't give you a massively large advantage in pvp but it's still there. Those people who don't spend money and grind have significantly more time and effort that the swipers.
It's a massive grind but in LOTRO you can theoretically unlock everything without spending a single penny. You'll just need to create multiple characters a few times, do the deeds to earn the LOTRO points and repeat until you have enough to unlock a new area/quest pack/feature.
wow is p2w if you want it to be Buy Gold get Raids boosted +20 M+ Etc If you play normaly And chase Raid and Rio then no
Actual clown statement.
Apart from buying the DLC's I have never spent a dime on GW2 and never had to because anything in the shop you can get without spending money. Which is what i have done for years now.
Saying you cant consider RMT P2W even though its one of the reasons/indicators why the companies started doing this is a weird take. Especially when the number of players (buyers of gold) getting banned is basically non-existent percentage wise. Companies only ban the sellers because you cant ban you customers, right.. right?
It's easier to ban the sellers because they advertise? At least that's my impression from FFXIV. It's probably harder to prove someone bought gill on an external site.
@@cutecats532 the bots that spam the chat aren't the ones that carry the currency. Banning players is quite easy if you collect the data of transactions.
The idea that MMORPGs are dead nowadays is partly due to how many of them there are.
Back in 1999-2000, there were maybe 3: UO, EQ, AC. Now the online RPG population is scattered across dozens of games.
it's not an idea, MMOs are empirically on the down low and have been for many years. check google trends, check youtube or twitch views. it is not as popular as other genres by every metric we have available.
and it's not because there are too many of them, it's because these other genres are more attractive to most players. there are even more FPS games than there are MMO games and yet FPS is massively more popular.
It's more a matter of perspective.
I can say, objectively, that there are more MMORPG players now than in the early 2000's.
I can also say that the number of MMORPG players are growing much slower than other genre's are.
I can also say that WoW has about 1/4 of the players it had during it's peak, and that's probably optimistic.
So, to a WoW player it's probably a dying genre, to a Throne and Liberty player it's probably a thriving industry (for about 4 months until it settles), and for a FF14 or GW2 player it's... business as usual with a stable base. And for something weird like Warhammer Fantasy it's a confusing renaissance of private servers being more popular then the game ever was before cancelation.
But end of the day, as a genre, it's growing much slower than it's peers... mostly due to upfront investment or pay to win, IMO.
@@henrychurch6062 your 1/4 claim about WoW is wrong since they recently, for the first time in a decade, released sub trends (they didn't include the actual numbers, but people managed to extrapolate it from public quarterly reports).
@@BattousaiHBr There's a TED talk about reading graphs you might benefit from reading. I've seen the extrapolations on those numbers which you're working off of and there are LOTS of assumptions being made.
But even if we assume that all of them are correct, 4mil is a far cry from 12mil, and optimistically that's still 1/3 of the max.
Figure in a reasonable margin of error with all those assumptions and you'll see I'm well within that.
@@henrychurch6062 the numbers i remember were more around 6m if i'm remembering right. and no, the assumptions were very safe and likely have a reasonably small margin of error (no bigger than +-20%).
calling money laundering games not p2w is another whole level of lunacy
what?
@thelazypeon i think you need a "ive never played this game" option on the vote... it may be people just skipping the games they have no clue about. Idk if you added this as i voted pretty early on, but yeah lol some of those votes were crazy
P2W is not a spectrum or subjective, it's got a clear definition. Paying real money directly to the game company to gain instant power over others that don't spend money.
For some your character's cosmetic visuals are the defining factor in the game and would consider out-classing others winning. But for others cosmetic changes hold no value. How can you put a definitive label of p2w or not-p2w in that case? Sure, the cosmetics most likely give no stat bonuses. But for some the stats are secondary compared to outshining everyone else next to the auction house or mailbox. Feels like quite a spectrum to me
It absolutely is a spectrum because some boosts provide a bigger advantage. Some games provide buffs for buying their monthly subscription fee. You want to see true pay to win, then go look at a korean mmo game where enchanting you weapon can break the weapon and you can buy protections on the cash shop that literally protect the weapon from breaking. Compare that to something like cosmetics or a slightly faster mount in a game where mount speed is all buy irrelevant, and then tell me that you think they are the same.
Pay for advantage, it's clear cut as that. How great the advantage is a spectrum though.
Eso is my favorite mmo all times but without the "optional" subscription. The gale has toobmuch limitation tobbe fully enjoyable and playable. If you do not pay it wil takes you a month to do what a sub player does in a week
Wizard101 dead? Still got quite a good population from what I've seen.
Yes there's probably dozens still playing
tons of players still play wizard, lots of realms full.
like 4000-5000 daily apparently, not bad o;