Removing all slowdowns was also a mistake of the Saturn port. Not every single slowdown on the Mega Drive version was due to hardware limitations, some were pre programmed like in a Cave game to make some sequences easier. You can identify them by playing on Maniac difficulty, as it gets rid off these intentional slowdowns. Or play with an emulator and overclock the CPU and see that some of them still persist no matter how much higher you push the frequency.
Im not against this series. Im like the ost. Very cool ost. But my cup tea for playing. Slowdowns generally can been distraction too when not done right...... So for me nice Saturn version fixed it.
I'll never forget the first time I played this game when I was a senior in high school 20+ years ago, before I could even press Start to begin, I was so completely mesmerized by the introduction sequence that I just sat there and let the game recycle over and over again so I could soak in all the visuals. Once I built up the nerve to finally begin the game I just couldn't stop smiling and couldn't believe how it felt and sounded just like an Arcade game if you had put a quarter in a machine. Not saying there's not other top notch games on Genesis but there's certain ones where you just get an overwhelming feeling in the pit of your stomach with exuberance and jubilation almost to the point of tears. The other ones I can think of that gave me that feeling on that level was Streets Of Rage 2 and Shinobi III. Absolute masterpiece! 😇
This is my most fav shoot em up, I still remember buying it from my local game shop, coming home and playing it I was blown away, the music, the gameplay it was all amazing, the mega drive was a beast and a game like this showed it, also lol at that intro.
I rented Lightening Force on a whim based on the cover art mostly. There are games out there when you load into the first stage/area and jaw just hits the floor, and it will leave a lasting impression in your mind: TF IV is one of those games. Amazing game.
One of the most technically impressive looking and sounding games on the Mega Drive which I haven’t played, I’ve been looking forward to this BTOP, honestly at time’s Thunder Force IV’e graphics look Neo Geo quality and the soundtrack, it’s a showcase of the Mega Drive FM synth at it’s best from a skilled composer. And what a shame about the audio quality in the Saturn port of the game which should have been improved upon especially as the Saturn could have just reproduced the audio through its sound chip but many there was a problem with the limited RAM in the Saturn but I don’t know, also nice trivia about how the TechnoSoft sound team came about developing the now iconic FM audio for Thunder Force IV.
I'm very sure the audio quality on the Saturn was due to RAM issues. If only Technosoft made use of one of the RAM cartridges. Even the 1MB cart would have been well more than enough space to store the entire Mega Drive game on.
@@RetroCore i agree, at least one of the RAM cartridges should have been used which would solved the issues with the audio, but overall the Saturn version is still a very good port of a legendary game, it’s just a shame TechnoSoft didn’t make anymore Mega Drive games after Thunder Force IV.
FM really lends itself to distortion so I'd imagine they went max velocity on the notes but adjusted the output volume on those channels down. Gotta buy myself some software FM synth to treat the cravings.
I always forget that the TFIV version in the Thunder Force Gold Pack 2 is a true port, not emulation. I'm also glad Sega hired M2 to do the Sega Ages port for Switch, because it takes what was good about the Saturn release and adds that in so that we have a more definitive edition of the game. That said, I'll never let go of my original boxed copy of Lightening Force I've had since I was 14. Still my favorite shooter to this day.
Indeed. I have all my original Mega Drive copies of Thunder Force 2 to 6. All bought when new and all still look new. Quite the achievement considering I bought the 2 and 3 and probably 4 when I was still in school.
I didn't own this back in the day, but discovering it later in life has been so satisfying. This might be one of the best game sound tracks ever. It's perfect.
I remember the first time playing when I went for the Japanese Megadrive. The music is awesome. On another note I enjoyed Technosoft Elemental Master which had great audio too
The PSG sounds converted to samples in the Saturn version sounds everything, but PSG. Sounds like an AY8910 trying to replicate the DCSG noises but the AY8910 is underclocked instead.
A friend of mine introduced me to this game with emulation. from then it got me playing this multiple times to this day. and that was 2013 btw, so the second i realized that this could be played on a android emulator, it became my benchmark for android joypads. also great use of my favorite Extra track in the intro
I wonder how easy it would be to hack in higher quality MD recordings into Gold Pack 2? Regardless, it's still my preferred way to play the game. I'd also argue TFIV has one of the best OST's ever made, particularly the more jazzy/funky tracks. "Because You're the Number One" is probably my favourite VGM track ever.
This game is art, plain and simple. I can't think of too many games that look this nice, Genesis or otherwise. Great use of color, multiple layers of parallax scrolling and so much going on at once. And then there's the soundtrack, with distortion guitars that are only rivaled by those used in Battle Mania Daiginjou. This, along with Streets of Rage 2, are games that I would use to showcase the system.
Lol. Perfect intro for the video. I'll never understand the egregious error in the US release's title. 😂 LOVE this game on MD/Genesis, probably my favorite game on the system. Absolutely sick shooter with gorgeous visuals and a candidate for what is likely the best soundtrack on the platform. 🤘🏻
Hello again, great video, great content. Keep up the good work. Nice that you're still doing videos. Look forward to seeing new ones soon. Keep up the good work
of all the old games that made a comeback it's beyond me how this serie isn't one of them, why we can't have at least some sort of collection, the originals costs an arm and a leg
The following comes from /v/s recommended games wiki's JP Saturn page. "Includes Thunder Force 4 so who gives a fuck what else is on the disc" Truer words have never been spoken.
Thunder Force IV on the European Megadrive was optimized. It ran as good as the 60hz versions. To date the only game i know that has gotten that treatment. The music in this game is just amazing. It proves that good musicians and programmers can get awesome music out of the Genesis/Megadrive that didn't suck. Looking at you, GEMS.
@@RetroCore Sonic 2 was also optimised and i think every game that used the Cube driver was also optimised for PAL, you can tell because the music isn’t slower in the PAL releases as well with Mega Drive games which had music done on the Cube driver.
Aún se me pone la carne de gallina al escucharlo. Juegazo sin contar la música, obra maestra con ella. Menudas navidades pasé en el año 92 con él. Creo además que a muchos nos introdujo en el mundo del sonido "metal".
okay that into was hilarious. But beside that, this is the final game Technosoft could have done, alongside with Saturn game of Thunder Force 5, before Sega screw us off with PS2 Thunder Force 6
Great game this one, although i actually prefer playing the third game in series out of all if them (TF III). Very nicely done video comparison as usual Sir! 👏
It always amused me that they mis-spelled the NTSC version as 'Lightening', you would think they would have double-checked before releasing it (assuming they were after the weather phenomenon rather than going round making things lighter in tone).
Bought it when it came out and I was blown away by the graphics and music. It can be a bit unfair when scrolling through the stages and you don't see enemies. I wish it was more accessible like a compile shooter but it's just a minor complaint for a game that is a masterpiece.
Regarding the American name, here is a fun (?) fact from the OED: "The form *lightning* is historically a contracted form of *lightening* ( it was at one time spelled *light'ning* ) but the two forms are now two distinct words." So I suspect the title was a deliberate choice of an archaic word, in the same way that Phantasy Star was not named Fantasy Star. I'm as much a fan as most when it comes to shaking my head at companies that make silly errors, but I think they've got us on this one. :-( Also: good game and a cool intro!
I found it funny back in the day that when I bought my Sega Genesis from a friend right after the console ended its run in the US market that this game was one of the three games that came with the bundle. I was not really a fan of shmups and didn't really play this game for a while, and then when a friend of mine asked what games I had for my Genesis I told him I owned this one and he got excited, saying it was one of the best on the console. I decided to pop it in and give it a go, and yeah, he was right. Ironically, owning the last revision of the Model 1 units and not realizing that they had the absolute worst sound is what stopped me from playing this game, and then almost 20 yrs later I get a good sound Model 2 and it helped a lot, especially with the soundtrack blasting through an excellent sound system. Glad to see it featured on the show, even if it took me by surprise and I forgot that I also own the Sega Saturn port :)
Strange as that's not what i thought the consensus was on MD audio, i know the HD Graphics Model 1 has a genuine Yamaha YM2612 and some different filtering where as the Model 2 doesn't. However, the video encoder on the Model 2 is generally better as it doesn't have banding and other such issues. You can mod a Sega Mega Drive/Genesis with a Triple Bypass V2 and it will improve sound and picture on both models or just by a Mister FPGA clone 'Mister Pi'.
It's probably quite expensive now. I'm lucky to have bought both Gold Packs on a trip to Japan back in 1997. I took those games back home to the UK where they stayed until 2010 when I went home and brought all my games back to Japan where I've lived since 1998. Those games have sure been around the world.
@@RetroCore how do I change the settings? I can't seem to find an option screen. I only have "lightEning" force - i believe it's usa version but unsure.
Tf4 is awesome. Thanks for the episode! Doesn't the sarurn also have an fm chip? They could have sequenced the music for it... probably more work than sampling I guess.
It does have a Yamaha FM chip but it's not the same. The Mega Drive FM chip is quite unique. Even now emulation is not always 100%. I'd say the Analogue MegaSG is basically perfect and Japanese Developer M2's emulation of the sound chip is too. But that's about it.
@RetroCore that makes sense! I'd love to see somebody try to "port" a song or two to ss fm, but I'm guessing even finding tools is not that simple (there are a bunch for the mega drive)
They would have to actually pay for a soundtrack (BGM for Japanese) to be rerecord for a red book audio. Instead they just converted Mega Drive's BGM into CD DA, then drag and dropped them into game's assets. It is a part of a collection (CD compilation), rather then a stand alone issue. For what is worth, that's ok👌
I must admit to being really dissapointed they didn't go with an actual heavy metal band for the Saturn soundtrack. Considering they were trying to make something that sounded like an electric guitar for the MD, it would have been so much better to have the real thing here.
@@RetroCore We would be deprived of such a good use of FM synth that stands as a testament to it's qualities and abilities though. I lament the day cd's replaced cartridges.
@@jesuszamora6949 I’m not disappointed. Sure it would’ve been nice to have had a real heavy metal version of the TF4 soundtrack but honestly, I like the FM version as they are as they’re that good.
Great comparison! Too bad it misses out on the Switch version, but that is stil ultimately emulating the Genesis ROMs underneath all of the Saturn additions. Personally, I feel it's the best of both worlds, though there is still a little more slowdown compared to the Saturn version even with the reduce slowdown toggle switched on. The Saturn and Switch versions also let you play as the FIRE-LEO-03 Styx from TFIII, by 1cc'ing it in the former and just beating the game in the latter.
The music on all the megadrive thunderforce games is outstanding. I love those deep thumping drums and the synth metal leads. When done right the megadrive could really sing but western developers never really mastered it and put out horrible treble heavy weedy soundtracks for the most part.
This is one of the few games, the PAL version plays better than the NTSC version as its has a property PAL release with correct speed. While resolution is not changed, that means there is less slowdowns in that port as a PAL machine has more CPU cycles per frame than a NTSC machine has...... Nice to see a PAL port done right, unlike most console games from the area. So this is not a computer exclusive issue at all. Nice.
That would be very cool. Even though they'd be emulated and most likely they'd use the inferior PlayStation version of Thunder Force V, I'd still buy it asong as they crammed it full of nice extras. I'd also hope they'd add information of the cancelled Dreamcast TF6. I wonder how different it would have been compared to what was released on to the PS2.
Thing that disappointed me most about the Saturn version sound wasn’t the music as such , it was the sound effects, they lacked the deep bass. Just sounded like treble, when you lose a life it’s especially noticeable, you no longer get this beefy “thud” sound like you do in the ‘Mega Drive original, but the Saturn version does have more clear speech samples, similar to the arcade Thunder Force AC
Not if it's raw cd-audio. It's only something like 72 minutes for a whole disc. The PS1 had compressed streaming cd audio... But one solution would be to buffer the end of the music to make it loop when the cd laser moves back to the track start. I think Sonic CD did that.
The other idea I had was maybe they could have used the FM synthesis that's built into the Saturn's Yamaha YMF292 to substantially save on precious CD space. But if the YMF292 uses a different set of algorithms to arrive at it's FM sound opposed to the OPN method of the YM2612 then that would have been an entirely new headache and set of problems which isn't guaranteed to sound the same despite both being FM. Or maybe they could have software emulated the 2612 but not everybody is like M2 who would be crazy enough to do something that intricate lol. 😃
@@thedrunkmonkshow It took a while to emulate the 2612 until Steve Snake more or less nailed it. All the emulators fall short with probably M2's emulation the closest. But the fm method in the Saturn is exactly the same. To convert the music score would be alot easier than emulating the 2612. But still maybe a few days wages for those expensive engineers.
@@RetroCore I remembered Sonic CD used the pcm and fm sound chips in some parts to hide gaps in music. More games than I though actually use the chip music in Saturn and PSX games when the cd isn't available.
Just checked the colours and the Saturn is outputting darker colours. This must be to do with the video DAC or something. I'm sure the colour values are the same. I don't think this harms the image though. I like to mention, whenever TF4 comes up, that to play in PAL is the best way, because, 1: it's only a little bit slower than NTSC and 2: most slowdown is now gone. I wonder if the Switch version used the 50Hz version. I have a theory about the PS Classic Mini, that they chose the PAL PS1 games because they have better performance and/or colour reproduction.
GTA 1 makes sense on the PS Classic. DMA had to downgrade the NTSC version graphically so it could hit a higher framerate. The PAL version was released a year earlier and looked more like the PC version. The rest of the games don't really make a lot of sense though.
@@AfterBurnerTeirusu GTA on PS Classic still has poor performance with cuts to the game like travelling on trains and certain mission. That game would have been a good fit for the Saturn, with it's background chip to render the ground. Interestingly. I have moved to PAL for many 16bit games, because the slower movement, changes the game to be sometimes more playable.
@@AfterBurnerTeirusu maybe try some shooters in 50 and see if it helps make them a bit easier. It's tempting to think something is better faster. Sometimes it is. But sometimes designers make them a bit too fast I think.
Megadrive wins this one, I had it back in the day and it was special even back then, I loved the unlocked music after finishing the game and only later found out some of the tracks were from the Arcade only stages that were in Thinder Force 3 AC.
It's a good game and the first level parallax is impressive but also quite confusing as a result of the high speed, multiple layers and high number of sprites on screen and more importantly a very low contrast between the player/enemy sprites and the background: it is often quite hard to grasp who's who at a glance and it's often unclear which sprites are pure visual effects (smoke, explosion) which are harmless and which ones are actually dangerous projectiles. This can be overcome but IMO makes the game less enjoyable than it could have been. It has to be noted that Thunderforce III does not suffer from this low contrast problem. It has less parallax (obviously) but more importantly it has much better contrast between moving sprites and the background which keeps the game very readable at all times. This difference makes it pretty clear that it's a different team who handled this port: some amount of graphical know-how was lost in the process and even if Thunderforce IV is a very impressive and good game it's still less enjoyable than it could have been with slightly improved graphical contrast. A good game, but IMO because of the above, not as great as it could have been. Thanks for the video! (An addition just to be clear and avoid unnecessary remarks: the graphics are fantastic, but they are not as readable as they should be IMO.)
Basicaly the same game. The low quality saturn music is easy fixeable if those are on audio tracks. They should tried some upgrades like better quality power up voices, and maybe real transparencies in water, ice, ignition, bullet, explosions, etc. But not too important really, that game is perfect the way it is..
It's accurate as to how my Hitachi Hi-Saturn outputs video over RGB. It actually looks fine on the TV but when viewed side by side with the Mega Drive the difference is noticeable.
I remembered that you featured a Thunderforce game before that had me hooked up with the series. Haven't played thrm all in their entirely but I will soon. Currently plaging a shumo called Aerial Assault on the Sega Master System. Pretty simple but very good. I also got The Earth Defense,if you can remember that you uploaded it before. Thanks!
A excellent battle thanks Mark, I couldn't believe how good this game was when I picked it up in the day, what they packed into a 8 megabit cart shames what we see in our modern games, I have to say though I prefer the much easier Thunderforce 3 nowadays.
I'm surprised I could complete this one for the making of this video. Truth be told that I was playing on easy though 😅 Thunder Force 3 is a game I could easily complete on Mania setting back in the day. Not now though. The reflexes just aren't what they once were.
Hands down the Mega Drive version wins for me 👍. The Saturn can easily handle a game like this but given the technical limits of the MD it was simply astonishing at the time.
I miss when hardware limitations would force developers to really push boundaries in design and execution for shooters- yeah, there are still amazing shmup games that come out, but I feel that innovation and creativity can be fostered through working around limited resources.
For a moment you scared me into thinking you became a 90s Sega of America management fan... thank goodness you got rid of that vile abomination of a logo from a 90s subsidiary branch that never respected nor supported TecnoSoft and Sega Japan headquarters. As for the issues with the Sega Saturn version, I find it very interesting that they didn't try to convert the MegaDrive sound into the Sega Saturn's 68k and Yamaha FM processor... didn't they use that for Thunderforce V? I forget at the moment... then again it was probably a lot of work just to make the conversions and worse that there was no support to localize them from the reject/skip/block happy 90s Sega of America staff.
Oh no, there's no way I'd ever select a messed up US version over the original. Regarding the Saturn, the FM chip on that is different to the Mega Drive so maybe it was a challenge to get it sounding right? The Mega Drive audio is very unique. Thunder Force V on the Saturn uses CDDA.
@@RetroCore I mean in theory I always wondered about that myself since the Saturn FM chip was a massive tech upgrade in terms of the FM channels and capabilities but maybe TecnoSoft did not have enough time to fully learn the Sega Saturn hardware and it was weird to me given TecnoSoft and Sega's longer term relationship in Japan that unless Im mistaken that TecnoSoft didn't make more use of the Sega Titan Video arcade hardware to make games there first. The biggest problem outside of the horrible decisions by Sega of America is that from 1994 to 1997 is just not enough time to properly fully master any hardware power... Sega MegaDrive launched in 1988 and by 1991 or three years later is when the game software and ROM Cartridges started pushing effects that did not seem possible before and that was pure 2d capabilites... With Sega Saturn a lot of the games were improving but then mid 97 and SoA won the pressure to make next gen instead. Anyway great video and ThurnderForce V and TecnoSoft was a great Sega exclusive game maker regardless. Thank you.
One of the technically and artistically most impressive games on the mega drive. Challenging but fair. Simply, a masterpiece
I don't it's being hyperbolic to consider this the 16bit generation's crowing achievement.
Removing all slowdowns was also a mistake of the Saturn port. Not every single slowdown on the Mega Drive version was due to hardware limitations, some were pre programmed like in a Cave game to make some sequences easier. You can identify them by playing on Maniac difficulty, as it gets rid off these intentional slowdowns. Or play with an emulator and overclock the CPU and see that some of them still persist no matter how much higher you push the frequency.
a game should newer slow down like that. its bad design in the end.
@@SpaceFractal-g2o You must hate manic/bullet hell shmups then, intentional slowdowns are a very common game design element of the genre.
Im not against this series. Im like the ost. Very cool ost. But my cup tea for playing. Slowdowns generally can been distraction too when not done right...... So for me nice Saturn version fixed it.
@@SpaceFractal-g2o I thought it was clear that I wasn't talking about random slowdowns due to hardware limitations.
Yep, im talked on random slowdowns and flickers as in this case. Also try the PAL version of this game.
Lol! You made me laugh when you started the video with Lightning Force, followed by your " what the f**..! " 😂
Great vid again! Cheers!
I mean, what was sega smoking when they localized TF 4 to Lightning Force? 😂
Lightning would have been okay… but LightENing seriously guys. 😅
Lol, right. I always thought it was a stupid name and even more stupid when Thunder Force 2 and 3 were released under the correct names.
The audio designer is definitely a fan of Dokken as evident by tracks like the intro and "Metal Squad".
I'll never forget the first time I played this game when I was a senior in high school 20+ years ago, before I could even press Start to begin, I was so completely mesmerized by the introduction sequence that I just sat there and let the game recycle over and over again so I could soak in all the visuals. Once I built up the nerve to finally begin the game I just couldn't stop smiling and couldn't believe how it felt and sounded just like an Arcade game if you had put a quarter in a machine. Not saying there's not other top notch games on Genesis but there's certain ones where you just get an overwhelming feeling in the pit of your stomach with exuberance and jubilation almost to the point of tears. The other ones I can think of that gave me that feeling on that level was Streets Of Rage 2 and Shinobi III. Absolute masterpiece! 😇
For me it's also TF4, Shinobi 3 and SoR2 that gave me this feeling. And I want to add Contra: Hard Corps.
Same here boys me too
Yes! Most definitely! 😎👍🏻👍🏻
For the time the audio on TF4 just blew me away, especially some of the bonus tracks which I used for the intro and outro.
Same here. It was my first game on megadrive
This is my most fav shoot em up, I still remember buying it from my local game shop, coming home and playing it I was blown away, the music, the gameplay it was all amazing, the mega drive was a beast and a game like this showed it, also lol at that intro.
I rented Lightening Force on a whim based on the cover art mostly. There are games out there when you load into the first stage/area and jaw just hits the floor, and it will leave a lasting impression in your mind: TF IV is one of those games. Amazing game.
My favourite game!
Nice inclusion of the omake music. The jazzy happy ending-style #9 is my favourite.
Yeah, some of those Omake tracks are really good.
One of the most technically impressive looking and sounding games on the Mega Drive which I haven’t played, I’ve been looking forward to this BTOP, honestly at time’s Thunder Force IV’e graphics look Neo Geo quality and the soundtrack, it’s a showcase of the Mega Drive FM synth at it’s best from a skilled composer. And what a shame about the audio quality in the Saturn port of the game which should have been improved upon especially as the Saturn could have just reproduced the audio through its sound chip but many there was a problem with the limited RAM in the Saturn but I don’t know, also nice trivia about how the TechnoSoft sound team came about developing the now iconic FM audio for Thunder Force IV.
I'm very sure the audio quality on the Saturn was due to RAM issues. If only Technosoft made use of one of the RAM cartridges. Even the 1MB cart would have been well more than enough space to store the entire Mega Drive game on.
@@RetroCore i agree, at least one of the RAM cartridges should have been used which would solved the issues with the audio, but overall the Saturn version is still a very good port of a legendary game, it’s just a shame TechnoSoft didn’t make anymore Mega Drive games after Thunder Force IV.
One of my favourite mega drive game as a kid TF4 blew my mind
FM really lends itself to distortion so I'd imagine they went max velocity on the notes but adjusted the output volume on those channels down.
Gotta buy myself some software FM synth to treat the cravings.
I always forget that the TFIV version in the Thunder Force Gold Pack 2 is a true port, not emulation. I'm also glad Sega hired M2 to do the Sega Ages port for Switch, because it takes what was good about the Saturn release and adds that in so that we have a more definitive edition of the game. That said, I'll never let go of my original boxed copy of Lightening Force I've had since I was 14. Still my favorite shooter to this day.
Indeed. I have all my original Mega Drive copies of Thunder Force 2 to 6. All bought when new and all still look new. Quite the achievement considering I bought the 2 and 3 and probably 4 when I was still in school.
I didn't own this back in the day, but discovering it later in life has been so satisfying. This might be one of the best game sound tracks ever. It's perfect.
It's sure up there at the top of greatest chip tune soundtracks ever made.
I remember the first time playing when I went for the Japanese Megadrive. The music is awesome. On another note I enjoyed Technosoft Elemental Master which had great audio too
Good call! I'm also a big fan of Elemental Master.
The PSG sounds converted to samples in the Saturn version sounds everything, but PSG. Sounds like an AY8910 trying to replicate the DCSG noises but the AY8910 is underclocked instead.
Given that the Genesis uses the similar SN76489...
They're also higher in pitch I found in some cases.
@@GamayObera I’ve always loved the way TechnoSoft used the PSG in their soundtracks to their games.
I have this on my Switch, and I never knew that those extras like the STYX being playable originated from the Saturn port.
Tons of memories playing this on the mega drive. I had no idea japan got a port. Interesting what they did with the audio
A friend of mine introduced me to this game with emulation. from then it got me playing this multiple times to this day. and that was 2013 btw, so the second i realized that this could be played on a android emulator, it became my benchmark for android joypads.
also great use of my favorite Extra track in the intro
Good game to check the response time on a joypad 👍
Great video, as always. What an excellent looking game.
It really is!
The artwork is stunning. I'm sorry to have missed it back in the day.
That is a shame. Back in the day this game was even more impressive.
I wonder how easy it would be to hack in higher quality MD recordings into Gold Pack 2? Regardless, it's still my preferred way to play the game. I'd also argue TFIV has one of the best OST's ever made, particularly the more jazzy/funky tracks. "Because You're the Number One" is probably my favourite VGM track ever.
Maybe it is possible. I have a feeling the quality was lower to save on memory space but nw that we have better compression teniques it could be done.
The best 16bit shooter.... that is an insanely bold statment... but i think it rings true..
Nah... R-Type, R-type 2, Raiden 1,2, & DX, pretty much half the PC Engine library.. It's good, but not the best
@gravious i have 75% of them and pc engine is THE shoot em up console..alas TF4 still outshines them
This game is art, plain and simple. I can't think of too many games that look this nice, Genesis or otherwise. Great use of color, multiple layers of parallax scrolling and so much going on at once. And then there's the soundtrack, with distortion guitars that are only rivaled by those used in Battle Mania Daiginjou. This, along with Streets of Rage 2, are games that I would use to showcase the system.
Couldn't agree more!
Lol. Perfect intro for the video. I'll never understand the egregious error in the US release's title. 😂
LOVE this game on MD/Genesis, probably my favorite game on the system. Absolutely sick shooter with gorgeous visuals and a candidate for what is likely the best soundtrack on the platform. 🤘🏻
This game is the standard for checking the sound quality of your mega drive console or emulation.
I’m absolutely awful at this game and I still love it
Hello again, great video, great content. Keep up the good work. Nice that you're still doing videos. Look forward to seeing new ones soon. Keep up the good work
Thanks for watching and the comment 👍
of all the old games that made a comeback it's beyond me how this serie isn't one of them, why we can't have at least some sort of collection, the originals costs an arm and a leg
Probably because the PS2 Thunder Force 6 was pants. I own that one as well but man, it's not a patch on the first five games.
Going to play this jewel in my Megadrive with a good headphones NOW!
Good call. Rocking out to a quality game.
The following comes from /v/s recommended games wiki's JP Saturn page.
"Includes Thunder Force 4 so who gives a fuck what else is on the disc"
Truer words have never been spoken.
Thunder Force IV on the European Megadrive was optimized. It ran as good as the 60hz versions. To date the only game i know that has gotten that treatment. The music in this game is just amazing. It proves that good musicians and programmers can get awesome music out of the Genesis/Megadrive that didn't suck. Looking at you, GEMS.
There were. A few Mega Drive PAL games that were optimised. One of the top of my head is Toejan and Earl 2. That's almost full screen as well.
@@RetroCore Sonic 2 was also optimised and i think every game that used the Cube driver was also optimised for PAL, you can tell because the music isn’t slower in the PAL releases as well with Mega Drive games which had music done on the Cube driver.
Aún se me pone la carne de gallina al escucharlo. Juegazo sin contar la música, obra maestra con ella. Menudas navidades pasé en el año 92 con él. Creo además que a muchos nos introdujo en el mundo del sonido "metal".
Some of the music tracks have a fantastic melody to them.
With only two versions, Mark had extra time to put a little joke in the beginning.
Yep, I sure did. And an audio comparison as well. 👍
what a game!
I really like what you do. Thank you for your work.
I appreciate that! Thanks 👍
okay that into was hilarious. But beside that, this is the final game Technosoft could have done, alongside with Saturn game of Thunder Force 5, before Sega screw us off with PS2 Thunder Force 6
Glad you liked the intro!
Great game this one, although i actually prefer playing the third game in series out of all if them (TF III).
Very nicely done video comparison as usual Sir! 👏
Glad you enjoyed it!
I'm also a big fan of the 3rs game. It's one of the only shooters I can complete on the most difficult settings.
It always amused me that they mis-spelled the NTSC version as 'Lightening', you would think they would have double-checked before releasing it (assuming they were after the weather phenomenon rather than going round making things lighter in tone).
Bought it when it came out and I was blown away by the graphics and music. It can be a bit unfair when scrolling through the stages and you don't see enemies. I wish it was more accessible like a compile shooter but it's just a minor complaint for a game that is a masterpiece.
Amazing game!
I don't love shmups, but this one is a 11/10.
Genesis / MD: Metal Squad
Saturn: Muffled Squad
🤣
Indeed 😅
Regarding the American name, here is a fun (?) fact from the OED:
"The form *lightning* is historically a contracted form of *lightening* ( it was at one time spelled *light'ning* ) but the two forms are now two distinct words."
So I suspect the title was a deliberate choice of an archaic word, in the same way that Phantasy Star was not named Fantasy Star.
I'm as much a fan as most when it comes to shaking my head at companies that make silly errors, but I think they've got us on this one. :-(
Also: good game and a cool intro!
You could be right about the spelling but why change the name in the first place? Very odd.
Out of the five parts to this game, part 4 was probably the pinnacle
There's 6 games in the series.
Part 6 is on the PS2 and it is easily the worst.
I still refuse to call it Lightening Force since that was a boneheaded SoA decision. None of the other TF games had a name change like that anyway!
@@AlviEao what was Sega of America thinking with that name change lightning force and they couldn’t even spell that right 🤣🤣
I found it funny back in the day that when I bought my Sega Genesis from a friend right after the console ended its run in the US market that this game was one of the three games that came with the bundle. I was not really a fan of shmups and didn't really play this game for a while, and then when a friend of mine asked what games I had for my Genesis I told him I owned this one and he got excited, saying it was one of the best on the console.
I decided to pop it in and give it a go, and yeah, he was right. Ironically, owning the last revision of the Model 1 units and not realizing that they had the absolute worst sound is what stopped me from playing this game, and then almost 20 yrs later I get a good sound Model 2 and it helped a lot, especially with the soundtrack blasting through an excellent sound system.
Glad to see it featured on the show, even if it took me by surprise and I forgot that I also own the Sega Saturn port :)
Strange as that's not what i thought the consensus was on MD audio, i know the HD Graphics Model 1 has a genuine Yamaha YM2612 and some different filtering where as the Model 2 doesn't. However, the video encoder on the Model 2 is generally better as it doesn't have banding and other such issues. You can mod a Sega Mega Drive/Genesis with a Triple Bypass V2 and it will improve sound and picture on both models or just by a Mister FPGA clone 'Mister Pi'.
Model 1 systems, especially the "High Definition Graphics" model have the best sound.
I think it’s time I finally pick up the Gold Pack 2. I really like Mega Drive ports on the Saturn.
It's probably quite expensive now. I'm lucky to have bought both Gold Packs on a trip to Japan back in 1997. I took those games back home to the UK where they stayed until 2010 when I went home and brought all my games back to Japan where I've lived since 1998. Those games have sure been around the world.
"We need more cowbell!" Errr no "we need more parallax scrolling, im just not feeling the parallax!"
lol, I wonder if that's how the conversation went.
Was playing this yesterday. Its frickin awesome....and still after 32 years - i suck at it!!
It's a tough one but I can finish on normal. hard is tricky but I've never managed mania setting.
@@RetroCore how do I change the settings? I can't seem to find an option screen.
I only have "lightEning" force - i believe it's usa version but unsure.
No worries. Found it! Might stand a chance now 😆
The intro song sounds a lot like the load/save machine from Mario Paint.
Tf4 is awesome. Thanks for the episode! Doesn't the sarurn also have an fm chip? They could have sequenced the music for it... probably more work than sampling I guess.
It does have a Yamaha FM chip but it's not the same. The Mega Drive FM chip is quite unique. Even now emulation is not always 100%. I'd say the Analogue MegaSG is basically perfect and Japanese Developer M2's emulation of the sound chip is too. But that's about it.
@RetroCore that makes sense! I'd love to see somebody try to "port" a song or two to ss fm, but I'm guessing even finding tools is not that simple (there are a bunch for the mega drive)
@@RetroCore i would love to get an Analougue Mega SG but they’re no longer in production and are very expensive on eBay.
They would have to actually pay for a soundtrack (BGM for Japanese) to be rerecord for a red book audio. Instead they just converted Mega Drive's BGM into CD DA, then drag and dropped them into game's assets.
It is a part of a collection (CD compilation), rather then a stand alone issue. For what is worth, that's ok👌
I must admit to being really dissapointed they didn't go with an actual heavy metal band for the Saturn soundtrack. Considering they were trying to make something that sounded like an electric guitar for the MD, it would have been so much better to have the real thing here.
It's Lord's of Thunder real musicians? I think so.
It would have been nice to have an arranged soundtrack. Technosoft did it with Hype Dule after all.
@@RetroCore We would be deprived of such a good use of FM synth that stands as a testament to it's qualities and abilities though.
I lament the day cd's replaced cartridges.
@@jesuszamora6949 I’m not disappointed. Sure it would’ve been nice to have had a real heavy metal version of the TF4 soundtrack but honestly, I like the FM version as they are as they’re that good.
2nd, Great video as always !
Great comparison! Too bad it misses out on the Switch version, but that is stil ultimately emulating the Genesis ROMs underneath all of the Saturn additions. Personally, I feel it's the best of both worlds, though there is still a little more slowdown compared to the Saturn version even with the reduce slowdown toggle switched on.
The Saturn and Switch versions also let you play as the FIRE-LEO-03 Styx from TFIII, by 1cc'ing it in the former and just beating the game in the latter.
That's true. Fans of Thunder Force 3 will be happy to know that.
The music on all the megadrive thunderforce games is outstanding. I love those deep thumping drums and the synth metal leads. When done right the megadrive could really sing but western developers never really mastered it and put out horrible treble heavy weedy soundtracks for the most part.
Well said. The FM Synth in a Mega Drive was really nice when in the right hands.
This is one of the few games, the PAL version plays better than the NTSC version as its has a property PAL release with correct speed. While resolution is not changed, that means there is less slowdowns in that port as a PAL machine has more CPU cycles per frame than a NTSC machine has...... Nice to see a PAL port done right, unlike most console games from the area. So this is not a computer exclusive issue at all. Nice.
Yeah, it was very rare to see PAL games get optimised in the 16bit days.
How much parallax scrolling do you want?
Yes
It has to be the most parallax used in a 16 bit game, 😅
I wish Sega would Release a physical collection of the Thunderforce Series, remasters / Remake and a new sequel 😂
That would be very cool. Even though they'd be emulated and most likely they'd use the inferior PlayStation version of Thunder Force V, I'd still buy it asong as they crammed it full of nice extras. I'd also hope they'd add information of the cancelled Dreamcast TF6. I wonder how different it would have been compared to what was released on to the PS2.
👍👍👌❤️
Thing that disappointed me most about the Saturn version sound wasn’t the music as such , it was the sound effects, they lacked the deep bass. Just sounded like treble, when you lose a life it’s especially noticeable, you no longer get this beefy “thud” sound like you do in the ‘Mega Drive original, but the Saturn version does have more clear speech samples, similar to the arcade Thunder Force AC
Very true. Could be due to the being higher in pitch. They are lacking the bass.
Surely they could have just made the cd audio tracks longer than the level by pre looping them
Not if it's raw cd-audio. It's only something like 72 minutes for a whole disc. The PS1 had compressed streaming cd audio... But one solution would be to buffer the end of the music to make it loop when the cd laser moves back to the track start. I think Sonic CD did that.
The other idea I had was maybe they could have used the FM synthesis that's built into the Saturn's Yamaha YMF292 to substantially save on precious CD space. But if the YMF292 uses a different set of algorithms to arrive at it's FM sound opposed to the OPN method of the YM2612 then that would have been an entirely new headache and set of problems which isn't guaranteed to sound the same despite both being FM. Or maybe they could have software emulated the 2612 but not everybody is like M2 who would be crazy enough to do something that intricate lol. 😃
@@thedrunkmonkshow It took a while to emulate the 2612 until Steve Snake more or less nailed it.
All the emulators fall short with probably M2's emulation the closest.
But the fm method in the Saturn is exactly the same. To convert the music score would be alot easier than emulating the 2612.
But still maybe a few days wages for those expensive engineers.
sadly there wouldn't be enough space on the CD to do that as the disc contains two games, both of which have a lot of music tracks.
@@RetroCore I remembered Sonic CD used the pcm and fm sound chips in some parts to hide gaps in music.
More games than I though actually use the chip music in Saturn and PSX games when the cd isn't available.
MD has way crispier gfx and better sound...wow!
Just checked the colours and the Saturn is outputting darker colours. This must be to do with the video DAC or something. I'm sure the colour values are the same. I don't think this harms the image though.
I like to mention, whenever TF4 comes up, that to play in PAL is the best way, because, 1: it's only a little bit slower than NTSC and 2: most slowdown is now gone.
I wonder if the Switch version used the 50Hz version.
I have a theory about the PS Classic Mini, that they chose the PAL PS1 games because they have better performance and/or colour reproduction.
GTA 1 makes sense on the PS Classic. DMA had to downgrade the NTSC version graphically so it could hit a higher framerate. The PAL version was released a year earlier and looked more like the PC version. The rest of the games don't really make a lot of sense though.
@@AfterBurnerTeirusu GTA on PS Classic still has poor performance with cuts to the game like travelling on trains and certain mission. That game would have been a good fit for the Saturn, with it's background chip to render the ground.
Interestingly. I have moved to PAL for many 16bit games, because the slower movement, changes the game to be sometimes more playable.
@@iwanttocomplain GTA never ran well on ps1. I’d never be able to go back to a PAL snes or MD, unless the game was actually designed for 50hz.
@@AfterBurnerTeirusu maybe try some shooters in 50 and see if it helps make them a bit easier.
It's tempting to think something is better faster. Sometimes it is. But sometimes designers make them a bit too fast I think.
@@iwanttocomplain I don't want to make them easier, and the stretch makes them look awful :D
Megadrive wins this one, I had it back in the day and it was special even back then, I loved the unlocked music after finishing the game and only later found out some of the tracks were from the Arcade only stages that were in Thinder Force 3 AC.
Ah yes, that's right. One of the tracks is FROM thunder Force AC.
It always weirded me out how some bosses in this game flashed white to signify being damaged while others didn’t
Strange decision for the Saturn port, as the Saturn audio chip had FM synthesis capabilities.
Yes but it's a different chip. Maybe it was difficult to have it sound accurate enough.
It's a good game and the first level parallax is impressive but also quite confusing as a result of the high speed, multiple layers and high number of sprites on screen and more importantly a very low contrast between the player/enemy sprites and the background: it is often quite hard to grasp who's who at a glance and it's often unclear which sprites are pure visual effects (smoke, explosion) which are harmless and which ones are actually dangerous projectiles.
This can be overcome but IMO makes the game less enjoyable than it could have been.
It has to be noted that Thunderforce III does not suffer from this low contrast problem. It has less parallax (obviously) but more importantly it has much better contrast between moving sprites and the background which keeps the game very readable at all times. This difference makes it pretty clear that it's a different team who handled this port: some amount of graphical know-how was lost in the process and even if Thunderforce IV is a very impressive and good game it's still less enjoyable than it could have been with slightly improved graphical contrast.
A good game, but IMO because of the above, not as great as it could have been.
Thanks for the video!
(An addition just to be clear and avoid unnecessary remarks: the graphics are fantastic, but they are not as readable as they should be IMO.)
And with that, the legendary SHMUP pentalogy has been covered…
…What do you mean it’s a hexalogy?
Let's try to forget about the PS2 entry 😅
@@RetroCore Yeah, we should
...What was I talking about again?
This game craves to be played on a phat CRT!
Been there, done that in RGB too ! The beauties of living in the UK. None of the composite crap. RGB all the way.
@@RetroCore totally agree!
Basicaly the same game. The low quality saturn music is easy fixeable if those are on audio tracks. They should tried some upgrades like better quality power up voices, and maybe real transparencies in water, ice, ignition, bullet, explosions, etc. But not too important really, that game is perfect the way it is..
Sadly the game music is not CDDA so there's no easy way to fix it besides going into the program and replacing the sampled audio tracks they've used.
The Saturn footage seems a shade darker than the MD, is that accurate or a result of differing capture methods?
It's accurate as to how my Hitachi Hi-Saturn outputs video over RGB. It actually looks fine on the TV but when viewed side by side with the Mega Drive the difference is noticeable.
I remembered that you featured a Thunderforce game before that had me hooked up with the series. Haven't played thrm all in their entirely but I will soon. Currently plaging a shumo called Aerial Assault on the Sega Master System. Pretty simple but very good. I also got The Earth Defense,if you can remember that you uploaded it before. Thanks!
Ah, I know Aerial Assault . It's not a bad little shooter for the Master System.
This game made the best player memories of my life before FFIII
The Saturn version looks a lot darker. Aren't you supposed to place your ship outside of the enemy's arms inside the elevator?
That's just how my Saturn looks.
Doesn't the emulated M2 Sega Ages version count as a Saturn to Genesis port? It has the new easy mode, plus other additions.
I don't do emulated versions as a rule if I can help it. I'd rather focus on true ports or conversions.
A excellent battle thanks Mark, I couldn't believe how good this game was when I picked it up in the day, what they packed into a 8 megabit cart shames what we see in our modern games, I have to say though I prefer the much easier Thunderforce 3 nowadays.
I'm surprised I could complete this one for the making of this video. Truth be told that I was playing on easy though 😅
Thunder Force 3 is a game I could easily complete on Mania setting back in the day. Not now though. The reflexes just aren't what they once were.
0:56 😂 i think its the EU/NA version of Thunder Force.. they change it to Lightening Force.. what the heck are developer doing??
@@andrewharry6967 it's the US version
US version. In Europe it was called Thunder Force IV just like Japan.
Hands down the Mega Drive version wins for me 👍. The Saturn can easily handle a game like this but given the technical limits of the MD it was simply astonishing at the time.
I agree.👍
I miss when hardware limitations would force developers to really push boundaries in design and execution for shooters- yeah, there are still amazing shmup games that come out, but I feel that innovation and creativity can be fostered through working around limited resources.
Couldn't agree more👍
For a moment you scared me into thinking you became a 90s Sega of America management fan... thank goodness you got rid of that vile abomination of a logo from a 90s subsidiary branch that never respected nor supported TecnoSoft and Sega Japan headquarters.
As for the issues with the Sega Saturn version, I find it very interesting that they didn't try to convert the MegaDrive sound into the Sega Saturn's 68k and Yamaha FM processor... didn't they use that for Thunderforce V? I forget at the moment... then again it was probably a lot of work just to make the conversions and worse that there was no support to localize them from the reject/skip/block happy 90s Sega of America staff.
Oh no, there's no way I'd ever select a messed up US version over the original.
Regarding the Saturn, the FM chip on that is different to the Mega Drive so maybe it was a challenge to get it sounding right? The Mega Drive audio is very unique.
Thunder Force V on the Saturn uses CDDA.
@@RetroCore I mean in theory I always wondered about that myself since the Saturn FM chip was a massive tech upgrade in terms of the FM channels and capabilities but maybe TecnoSoft did not have enough time to fully learn the Sega Saturn hardware and it was weird to me given TecnoSoft and Sega's longer term relationship in Japan that unless Im mistaken that TecnoSoft didn't make more use of the Sega Titan Video arcade hardware to make games there first.
The biggest problem outside of the horrible decisions by Sega of America is that from 1994 to 1997 is just not enough time to properly fully master any hardware power...
Sega MegaDrive launched in 1988 and by 1991 or three years later is when the game software and ROM Cartridges started pushing effects that did not seem possible before and that was pure 2d capabilites...
With Sega Saturn a lot of the games were improving but then mid 97 and SoA won the pressure to make next gen instead.
Anyway great video and ThurnderForce V and TecnoSoft was a great Sega exclusive game maker regardless.
Thank you.
TF 4 has better graphics while TF 3 has much better music.
Ooo, I'm sure many would disagree on that but I do see where you are coming from. TF3 does have some classic tracks, especially the snow stage.
@@RetroCore My favorite is the Lava level. I remember it was the most metal sounding track in a video game back then.😂
That is a good looking stage. Good music too.