This should be a demo in every school teaching basic science. I’ve done physics and the toughest thing is trying to imagine things you can’t see with your own eyes.
They actually brought one to my high school! I remember it very clearly as i was already interested in physics and i was the coolest thing ever to happen in that school
Something I noticed about my "proof of concept" chamber from two years ago. Height: you NEED distance (15-20cm) between the felt (alcohol vapor source) and the cold plate. If too close, the cold plate will quickly prevent alcohol from evaporating. Mine was made with a "pint" canning jar. Later changed to a "quart" jar (for distance). The chamber NEEDS to be warm on the top, but very cold on the bottom. Which why he is using a warm water tank.
awW! the store they had two of, literally, the exact container he has on top and no taller ones. I have 11 cm clearance and just completed the coupling. I guess I'm hosed. Unless maybe I have more area and volume than you had, because this shortie is a quart, but that probably just hurts and helps equally... The first part went so well having a little milling machine to get the bottom/top out with nicely in minutes. Sealed it on with the tape and then read the 15-20cm update :( lol... guess I'll try it... dunno if size of felt or sponge will help... thinner=all closer to the warmth, larger=more with more intertia but closer to the cold...
I made this on a smaller scale, with a 4" square heatsink and 3-1/2" square containers. I had to make one modification- I stapled the felt to the aluminum tape as the alcohol was dissolving the adhesive holding it in place (both the double sided tape and the aluminum tape). It worked perfectly the first time. Great experiment, thank you. I obtained all the components except the alcohol and flat black spray paint (for the surface of the heatsink) from Amazon, if anyone is interested I will supply my shopping list.
You did it! Awesome. That magic of seeing these tracks after your own construction must have been a special moment. Sure, a lot of us could just purchase a cloud chamber, but actually MAKING one must have taught you so much more. True science. God bless brother.
@@TheHexCube Yes, seeing that first track was pretty cool. I was sitting there thinking there's no way this is going to work, not the first time. Then bang... there it was. I almost jumped out of my chair. I'm 71 years old and still love doing this stuff.
@@ArifGangji Keep trying, don't give up & good luck my friend! Will be awesome to see these amazing particles fly through something you've created. It IS possible to achieve.
I can’t thank you enough. I attempted to make one of these years ago using the dry ice method, I didn’t have much success. My kids are a little bit older now, but I bet they will still like this, I’m going to give it a shot, thank you again.
man i've been watching a few videos now about this because i wanted one. people make them and they are so expensive. i can do this right here today. love it. great video
Tried this a couple of days ago and it worked! I used a much smaller container but it still worked, the key is to be patient in the beginning as it takes a couple of minutes to start working but once it works you just need to make sure there is enough alcohol and the top is kept hot.
What a great idea with the heat sink and gel. I can’t get dry ice very easy around here and I’ve been wanting to do this experiment with the kids. Thanks for the video and the person who came up with the idea. =]
I wish. I did a calculation on what magnetic field is need to get a noticeable radius. Let’s just say a few coils won’t cut it. There a reason why ATLAS and CMS have superconducting magnets in the order of 8T plus. 🤓
connection t-shirt and cloud chamber: Cloud chamber was first used to find a anti elektron by Anderson starting the hunt for the remainder of antimatter which is done in Cern. I believe your T-shirt is a seethrough of the LHC at CERN
@@milztempelrowski9281 I'm way late but answered anyway. Nice to see I was right. Not often it happens. I coulda won something if there were a prize. my answer: A2Q@0:50-0:55 Your t-shirt is a particle map* from the LHC demonstrating the GOD Particle maybe? When two particles collide they emit a shower of radiation, radiation that is demonstrated with our cloud chamber, similar to the LHCs(particle collider) detector. Do I win a prize?
"Dry ice is easy to come by" Unfortunately in Poland dry ice is almost impossible to get. You can order some on the Internet but it's pretty expensive. So this design is really helpful and I will be making this soon! Thanks!
@@Freezone7 Yeah a 5kg CO2 fire extinguisher costs like 12% of my monthly paycheck. And considering how little actual dry ice you can produce with the extinguisher it would be cheaper to just order the dry ice online. The cheapest I could find is 5kg for 3% of my monthly paycheck but it's expected that around 2kg of that will sublimate in transit and the rest will last 1-2 days. It's an okay price for one time events like parties and stuff but buying that every time you want to play with a cloud chamber is not a good solution.
This has feaked me out....I only wondered yesterday how to make one of these (Only in my head no searches nor speaking to anyone about it) and this video pops up as my suggested watch......Are google reading minds now?. Also cheers dude gonna make one.
Just to assist by way of clarifying about materials the welding rod that you specify is actualy a tungsten rod, however they are sold as 1.5% and 2% thoriated or as some with an interest in transistors would say the term is doped with thorium. They are used for tig welding of carbon steels primarily. Hope that helps.
Fantastic project. Thank you for reminding me (all of us) that doing science doesn't need to cost a lot of money. About 10 years ago, I built a cloud chamber using dry ice... but I am curious, Why did you choose to place the felt and alcohol on top, rather than below (on the cold surface)? If the alcohol-soaked felt is placed at the top where it's much warmer, I expect that the alcohol will evaporate too quickly and will not create the necessary supersaturated conditions in the chamber... at least that is what I thought I knew.
You need the alchohol to quickly evaporate. You then have a large temperature gradient to develop a super saturated region above the plate. (-18 - 60 degrees) In the case of dry ice versions you don’t need hot water but your temp gradient is now -78 to 20 degrees approx ) So probably a little better but limited by the fact you need dry ice
I can think of improvements, such as having the top container be made of metal and using a thermal adhesive to bind them. Also, if you add more felt strips or loops, you could get more surface area to vaporize the alcohols, and produce more vapor. Maybe you could run a liquid through a heatsink on the top, and produce more thermals up there for longer? You might also be able to run this for awhile just using peltier modules. Who knows, I should try this out myself! Great video!
You could do that. See how you go. As long as there is a good temperature difference so that you can create a good supersaturated cloud of alcohol vapour, and maintain that so that you can have a decent time trying to observe tracks. I think there could be a number of variations I could still work. The original Wilson cloud chamber simply used water.
I'm slightly annoyed that I'm only now finding your channel. There's an incredible lack of science content creators that are tolerable for Australian viewers. I'm so happy right now.
@@MrWhateva10 the common complaints I hear are that American educators seem to over simplify their content and underestimate their audience. Of the people I've spoken to at length, a stronger portion of them definitely feel like they're being spoken down to like a child when watching a lot of online content, or content aimed at lay masses.
@@Dylfunkle Interesting, thanks. I haven't had that experience, but I haven't been looking for it either. Maybe it's the accent? Americans are pretty famous for blunt and simplified names for things... "Fall" because the leaves fall instead of "Autumn", that kind of thing. Does that make us intolerable though? PBS SpaceTime is an American channel with an Australian-native speaker that certainly covers some pretty advanced subjects if it's just the accent. But, conversely I find the British Royal Institute's videos to be bare-bones populist science that skims over the top of most subjects without getting any details at all, and yet still enjoyable presentations. Are you familiar with Tech Ingredients channel? That may be an example of an American educator that's covering some reasonably advanced topics but has a tendency to spend a lot of time covering them, building up for layperson understanding. If you're already familiar with the subject you can get quite bored. I definitely have not found there to be a shortage of deep science content out there though, so I encourage you to shake up the TH-cam algorithm and see if it can't get you better recommendations.
@@MrWhateva10 I feel I may have come across poorly, or perhaps too harshly spoken, and for that I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that all Americans are intolerable, certainly there are some fantastic speakers and communicators from the American circles. I do quite enjoy a large amount of PBS media, particularly Eons, I'm something of a paleo-dork and the hosts there are largely quite charming and visibly smarter than the concepts they're talking about. I think you found exactly the right word to capture my intent when you mentioned "populist science", and that could very well be my problem. The kind of short repetition and horrible fast cut editing in the style of histories greatest warrior, or any list of "deadliest" creatures, (I know these aren't exactly scientific, but they're the most extreme examples of the genre I'm trying to explain), that's the part I struggle with. It takes a five minute clip, cuts it in a way that it can be narrated for fourth five minutes with commercial breaks, and then is spoon fed to the audience with no faith in their ability to retain the information. The movie Idiocracy is another exaggerated example of my sense of frustration. I see myself as incredibly average in intellectual areas, and even still I find a vast amount of media to be targeted beneath my level. At the end of the day, I'm just an idiot with an opinion, but you've given me some points to consider, so thank you for that.
Thanks for this video! I wish I had seen this a few days ago. I went through 10lbs of dry ice over the past few days trying to get that version to work. Never could get it working (i couldn't get the saturation layer). There are no dry ice suppliers in my town so I have to drive 40 minutes to the city for it. I'm going to order the materials for this one and give it a try!
The intro just about blew my speakers up then I have to turn it up to a ridiculous level to hear you speak, then you insert more loud as hell bits. Thanks for that.
Thank you, I really enjoyed it, did not notice how the 16 minute wideo gone. Looking forward the most batiful part: Another video about the Physics of particles making the traces
This is such a great way to build a cloud chamber that is safe and effective. I’m absolutely using this method with my kids. I have a small piece of Trinitite that I want to observe to see if it’s still active, though I’ve been told it isn’t.
Knew I should've calculated the temperature difference curves! Was considering making a refrigeration system for a cryo based unit, largely out of being cheap and a bit lazy to run out for dry ice. Then, ran across this which I had considered and dismissed without calculating it. Might go with a multistage peltier cooler for the cold base still, for on demand purposes, but likely will go with the cold gel first. Been looking into this because well, had a smoke detector fail and when it was replaced, maintenance handed the defective unit to me. Needed a resistor out of the unit for something else, so while I was there, ripped it the rest of the way down. So, got a nice Americium source button that needs a proper display as a conversation piece. I'll also be building a nice radiation spectrometer from plans on CERN's educational site. Comes with a nice database of readings from that photodiode scintillation detector, again, good conversation piece. Toss in an alcohol fueled steam engine and sterling engine on adjacent shelves just for giggles...
Well, after seeing your video I ordered 10 small aliminium heatsinks and they are right now on the freezer, hope I can see at least som emuons tomorrow 🤞
@@PhysicsHigh it didn't work, maybe my heatsinks weren't cold enough or the water hot enough, i Will let it sit in the freezer for 24 hours and i'll add boiling water Just to ensure that the temperatura difference is achieved and i Will be using a smaller amount of 99% isopropanol, because this time the felt that was too wet. Any other advice?
was there a good seal between the container and the plate? Make sure plate is free of water crystals too. Are you just looking for muons. They not common and dependent on local conditions. I assume plate is well prepared with no bubbles. In gel. And well frozen.
@@PhysicsHigh well, today I had better luck, mist was formed and it lasted for several minutes but unfortunately i couldnt see any traces, so I'll wait till tomorrow night and go to the balcony with the cloud chamber to have a better chance of detecting anything as i am not shielded by the roof and walls of my house.
I made a cloud chamber with a ultrasonic mist maker and a water pump. The cold steam wants to sink so the pump manifold makes use of the vinturi effect to pull the cold steam into a 14 liter chamber. One thing I noticed was the plants growing underneath the chamber. Not sure why they started growing towards the angle of the chamber. Because my setup is outdoors I get a lot of green water condensation on the plastic.
I wouln't be surprised if this is an actual reconstruction from the Atlas detector of the LHC, maybe a H->ZZ or H->WW decay going into 4 jets, with the jets reconstructed as the red vectors.
@@haakoflo The red lines past the casing as if to mark their trajectory if it continued? Not a bad conclusion. :D Those red lines are what prompted me to think artists depiction, but it is possible that its an actual scan.
This is a fantastic project! I follow Tesla555 due to my interest in Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils. He presented an elaborate, nicely built cloud chamber using TEC coolers on a big heatsink, and some resistors to heat the ethanol under a bell jar. This is a great low cost simple and approachable version.
At first glance your shirt appears to be a cross section view of particles detected in a particle accelerator collision. The most interesting of these particles imo must be the Higgs Boson. Can't wait for us to figure out how it gives fermions their mass!
@@viola_case I'm not sure. I know CMS/ATLAS was the experiment resulting in the discovery of the Higgs Boson in 2012, and as far as I I'm aware, the mass comes from an interaction with the Higgs Field, not actually the Higgs Boson, as it also gets it's mass from the Higgs Field, but I don't know if there's science describing how the interaction actually induces mass in a particle. I'd have to do some research. I'd love to see Feynman diagrams of the different Higgs interactions! Edit: The wikipedia page about the Higgs Mechanism is, fairly, mostly beyond my understanding, but I _think_ it's answered my question. I had suspected it might have something to do with symmetry breakings, and I _think_ this _maybe_ confirms it? Probably not, because it only talks about bosons, and the spontaneous symmetry breaking mechanism apparently seems to contradict some other well corroborated theorems. There's also the issue of whether or not we try to involve gravitational attraction. Idk, as much as I wish I was a particle physicist, I'm definitely not yet :D and there's much more for me to look at besides a Wikipedia page lol
Fantastic!! I hace a 1" thick chunk of metal the same the same dimensions as the heat sink you made. Can i put that into the freezer overnight and use that instead? Thank you!
Design improvement suggestions: * Have 2 heat syncs, heat conductively stuck back to back, * Pour gel into a container that's smaller than the cloud chamber, but larger than the heat sync, * Submerge half of heat sync assembly into gel * Freeze assembly, * Add a heating element to the water tank This should extend the cloud chamber's usable period.
I'm not sure I can follow your suggestions. Smaller than the cloud chamber, but larger than the (back to back) heat sink.? How is that physically possible? Back to back heat sinks would leave fins on top and bottom?
@@msmeyersmd8 Heat syncs are very common and come in a wide range of sizes. Select a pair that fit inside the chamber, so that you limit how much you are cooling the air outside the chamber. The greater surface area of the exposed side speeds up energy transfer, making the chamber's useful period start earlier and more consistent over the the experiment. The volume of gel can be => the syncs fin void space since the sync is placed in a tub of it, extending the life. Inside of being limited to 100ml you can use as much as you like. Heating element for the top is a very common device and a lot come with thermostats. This will maintain the 60°C for the period of the experiment. The combination of the greater surface area of the cooling sync and a constantly heated upper element creates a more consistent temperature gradient.
@@msmeyersmd8 Heat transfer is dependent on surface area. By having a large surface area on both sides you maximise the transfer of heat from inside the chamber to the gel.
@@2011dyrose Thanks. I see what you're getting at. On first glance, it just didn't make sense to me. Thinking it through I can better understand the thermodynamics of the system. Any good ideas about making a larger volume? Taller and more rectangular. Or do we run into the limits of this type of reusable cloud chamber. I've done the dry ice. Works very good because of the T differential. But a "pain in the arse" to set up. And not accidentally freeze you fingertips off. 👍🏻
@@msmeyersmd8 The volume of the tub containing the cooling gel is key. The larger the volume compared to the cloud chamber and heatsink, the longer the cooling effect lasts. Although you might start running out of alcohol at the top after a certain period (mouse water feed to the sponge?). Wonder if salt water would be cheaper replacement for the gel?
Don't use under a metal roof or on thenground floor (with additional floors above you). The less mass between you and the sky, the better. Otherwise, you are forced to use an internal radioactive source. Thoriated rods from a TIG welder will work.
Because of the current logistics issues high strength isopropyl alcohol is harder to get in some places. You could try salting out lower concentration to get the water to drop out. Note salt won't work with ethanol.
I made a large cloud chamber using a 10 gallon aquarium and with dry ice and it worked great. When I watched your video about using freezer gel I got excited, but then ran into a problem. You stated that your freezer gets down to -18-degrees C. I'm in the USA and our freezers rarely get below 0-degrees C, which isn't cold enough to run a cloud chamber. Are UK freezers that much colder than ours?
@@PhysicsHigh It seems I had an equipment malfunction. I measured the temperature with an infrared thermometer, which I have now determined to be malfunctioning. Switching to a different thermometer now gives me a temperature of 2.0-degrees F. I apologize for bothering you. Thank you for an interesting video and replying so quickly. I also apologize for thinking you were in the UK. I'm in Southern California USA.
Hey there, thanks so much for this tutorial. I've tried it 3 times now with no complete success. I followed your instructions to the T and I went and purchased a high lumen work light to help with the illumination of the vapor. I was able to see the vapor, but only to about 5cm above the heatsink. Is this what you'd expect? For some reason, I envisioned the entire chamber saturated with the vapor. If so, do I only need to focus light on the bottom half of the chamber? Also,can the water temperature be too hot for this experiment? Thanks for your help!
Yet another way of making a cloud chamber! Thank you. I've had partial success with peltier's at surface temp of -40°, but didn't warm the alc. I've recently seen designs with a high voltage mesh - what's that about? I know strong magnets can deflect particles to aid in identification, but H/V? Many, many thanks for the upload, subscribed.
Good idea, but what do you think, is it possible to create "cloud" with an ultrasonic humidifier and isopropyl alcohol? Most cloud chambers based on temperature differences, is another way to do that? Thank you for your video, I will try yours. :)
This is a good idea for an experiment. I've seen those little ultrasonic compact elements inserted into a little dish producing visible water vapor. Could it work with alcohol? Uh oh, though... flamability! Vaporized alcohol is very volatile!
@@OtterLakeFlutes Yepp, alcohol is very flammable. Otherwise, I watched a lot of videos about cloud chambers, but half of them used dry ice (which I don't know, where to buy in east Europe), or Peltier cells with large power. I think, humidifier won't work, because the key is the oversaturated air with alcohol, but this wouldn't have particles small enough for this. If someone tries it, I would be curious to result.
@@pmate95 yeah come to think of it, it would be its own agitator like the particle that flies through...even if it managed to truly vaporize the alcohol (which is dubious) it would probably instantaneously re-precipitate from harmonic vibrations anyway. Esp. cheap ultrasonic elements are noisy with harmonics. I got a "fat burning" ultrasound probe to do, instead, therapy on my shoulder. It helps alright, and it's probably an illegal (unlicensed) level of ultrasound (unlike hokey, weak gimmicks) but I worry about it giving he hearing damage, lol. Unlike the medical probe at the clinic, this one works similary except the harmonics squeal loudly in my ears like some aquatic alien! Couldn't believe it that much noise could make it through a foot of meat to my ears. And right over my shoulder blade bone, wow. Then it's like my heat is going to explode with audible harmonics. Never happened at the clinic, but I can tell this probe does have powerful ultrasound (and no just sonic) because of my experience with the sensation, effects, and you can vaporize a water droplet on the pad. I don't think my wife will let me use if for a could chamber though, lol, she paid $275
I just made this, as you directed in your video above, and it worked exceedingly well! We did have a question about the tracks we observed...some were very thin and straight, some were thin and curved and some were much thicker and longer...I'm assuming that the different tracks made were due to different types of charged particles with different energies...do you know what the basic difference is between the shorter, thinner tracks and the longer, thicker tracks? Is that just due to particles with higher energy? Or are we seeing different types of particles? Thanks for the clear directions in your video - I'll be doing this in class this next school year with my students!
@@grusio_der_kosmonaut ... Yes, they implied that; and of COURSE that's what they represent. What else could different tracks possibly represent? Were they to assume that different tracks are all the same types of particles?? What an astoundingly unhelpful, patronizingly ignorant contribution you spent your time to type out to this genuine person. I'm not even 100% on why this rubs me the wrong way as much as it does, I think because descending to the depths of mind needed to imagine what you were thinking is almost painful.
Alright I took a short walk to cool off, sorry I went ham on that dude up there ☝️ *ahem* Particle identification may be carried out by the differences in the geometry and thickness of their tracks. • Short thin zig-zag › Low energy electrons (beta-particles) • Long thick straight › Heavy charged particles › Protons › 4He++- ions • Thinner / slightly curved › Muons › Similar to the latter type * (Quantitative evaluations for γ-radiation is quite difficult in cloud chambers) Energy of the particles can be determined measuring track length. Energy distribution and range-energy dependence can be calculated from the data. From the thickness of the tracks the stopping power of the particles can be deduced. Another way for particle discrimination and energy determination is their different absorption in various materials.
Is there a reason an evaporator from a refrigeration unit cannot be used for the cold "source", and a heater with a thermal regulator to maintain the temperature of the upper container?
they do that... like, commnercial-grade, inevitably a larger project than you first envision, like many things. one guy tried different things and it had to be cold enough it was like the element om the freezer quickly freezing water crystals onto it before the field would saturate... this on the other hand I'm half done already in a half hour (I have a benchtop milling machine and a 1.8" endmill and made cutting the top so easy I almost felt guilty. I just don't have the liqui-gel cellulose so I'm thinking of trying some 25% antifreeze / 75% water, suspended in sodium polycarbanate "gel" crystals all of which is in the garage. And a mean heat sink from a transmitter. If it doesn't work I'll dig out the gel and try again. I think I have enougfh head room... I have two of the bins he has on top and not the taller one... he says 15-20cm at least... Crap I've got 11 I'm hosed :( ...they didn't have the taller one... they had literally the exact one he has on top at Dollar General.
@@OtterLakeFlutes F whatever item you were using has a freezing point just slightly above the temperature you’re going to bring it down to, you can actually get a little more energy out of it that way and it should theoretically last longer.
Would you say the heat transfer from the hot water to the lower chamber is enhanced by not using the aluminum between the two chambers and just using the bottom of the upper one to transmit the heat? It does appear to me that the aluminum material there would cause the heat to be reflected back to the water side rather than down toward the felt.
Thanks for the tutorial! Dry ice is alway a pain to get a hold of. I have just finished building it. Do you have suggestions for keeping the bottom chamber walls clear. I can’t see through into the chamber as there is too much condensation on the walls.
Maybe seal the bottom, I think he recommended vasaline around the rim, so water can't get in and condensate on the walls and base. If you've already done that then I'm at a loss
It shows the decay of radioactive isotopes which is what your Cloud chamber is also showing that's a collision inside of the Large hadron collider if I'm correct?
Im not fluid in my understanding or in the terminology regarding many areas of physics. Love your description and use of materials to achieve a result by the way, great stuff. Ahh now I see after watching again you put your isopropynol alcohol in the felt ugh. I missed that the first time I watched and couldn't understand why you would put an insulator in the top of your chamber lol.
The purpose of the felt is simply to hold the alcohol And since it’s a very fibrous it has a very large surface area and thus when it gets warm the alcohol vaporises very quickly
Cool cloud chamber. I think you're using the wrong term though - the alcohol vapor in the chamber is supersaturated, not saturated. Also, I believe the image on your shirt specifically is an image of the Cern Atlas event display of the Higgs (H -> 4mu) candidate event.
I stand corrected - it's what I meant but didn't pick up the error in my narration, and yes the shirt I got from CERN (ATLAS office actually ) and specifically chosen for this video. I try to wear shirts that align with the topic I am doing ;-)
The t-shirt looks like the Atlas detector of LHC. The similarity to a cloud chamber is that the LHC would have semiconductor layers around the centre. When a charged particle passes through the semiconductor (probably silicon), it will create a electron-hole pair, which behaves similarly to a positive and negative ion in a gas. By applying an electic potential difference across the semiconductor, the electron and hole can be kept from recombining, and instead a small current will be detected when a particle passes through. (With the voltage set just right, having a few electron-hole pairs in the semiconductor will reduce the resistance enough to cause a cascade, where more electron-hole pairs are created from the energy of the electric field, causing a mini-lightening inside the semiconductor). Next, by applying a strong magnetic field over the whole detector, one causes charged particles to follow a curved path, where the curvature will indicate the charge and momentum of the particle. And at the edge, there is probably a calorimeter (yellow), that abosorbs the remaining energy of the particles, and combined with momentum, it can be used to identify the mass and velocity of the particle. Basically, this approach follows the same principles as when using a cloud chamber, except that the particle traces can be read out electronically instead of taking a photographic picture, allowing for much higher resolution and more events to be captured per second. As for the event itself, it looks like a reconstruction of a Higgs decay. I would guess this is a H->ZZ->4I event. The red lines seem like reconstructions of the momentums of the 4 jets.
Atlas uses three detection principles whereby silicon semiconductors are one. It also uses ionization detectors and scintillators. They all have their specific uses such as triggering, energy measurement, etc.
@@upnorthandpersonal When talking about semiconductor I was referring to the tracker part, as that is the part that corresponds directly to the cloud chamber of the video. From memory (from 25 years back) the tracker part is using primarily semiconductors. Maybe I remember wrong?
EDIT: Correction to the above. This is indeed a H->ZZ->4l even, but after reading the discovery article, I realize that the red arrows are NOT reconstructed jets, but rather individual electrons and/or muons, as these do not decay into hadrons. The reason they do not curve visibly in the magnetic field is their high energy. The length of the arrows may represent the energy of the particles (which at this highly relativistic energy is basically the same as momentum), or it could simply reflect where the track ends. In the latter case, if the track extends beyond the electromagnetic calorimeters, it would indicate that this is a 4 muon event, where the tracks end in the muon chambers in the outer parts of the the detector. As it turns out, the ZZ to muons and/or electrons channel is relatively rare (low cross section) , but it has a very low background, making it easy to detect, which is why it was probably the most important channel when the disovery was made. Me mistakenly interpreting the red arrows as jets probably stem from the fact that I spent a couple of years in the 90s looking for 4b events, where the b quarks do form jets, and the events look pretty similar. This presentation would show a HH->4b event, where the bottom quark jets are represented as cones, not lines: indico.cern.ch/event/731450/contributions/3090100/attachments/1710518/2759053/ATLAS_4b_strategy.pdf
Thanks! Maybe I missed it, but: what's the point in using a heatsink + gel rather than just a thick plate of solid metal? Wouldn't steel have overall better thermal mass? Or does that gel actually do better?
@@PhysicsHigh thanks, i didn't realize how much better than steel water is for specific heat capacity. Still, it would seem that the volumetric heat capacity of steel is about 75% that of water, so you might get a useable amount of time from a simple steel plate of the same volume?
@@PhysicsHigh also, given that the plate in the video is only about half water, and the (presumably aluminum) metal has less heat capacity than steel, maybe a steel plate of equivalent size would be even closer in performance than 75%? And if you are going to spend $40 you can probably get a thicker plate of steel anyway? Might simplify this already simple design even more?
The gel will stay a a constant temperature until it has experienced a full state transition from frozen to molten. This lets you have a temporary constant temperature source.
I've made a cloud chamber based on this method and nothing! There are no streaks of cloud at all. I can see the tiny droplets of vapor falling but apart from that, nothing! I even spent £40 on the heat sink too! Anybody got any suggestions why it isn't working? Or was it working and the guy in the video is giving the viewer BS?
I had success with both. Are you might get a stronger gradient of temperature with the shorter amount which may result in better results. Are the original design based on the Japanese paper used two plastic tumblers so much shorter.
What you could do is soak a piece of tissue paper in alcohol and stick it up on the top of the bottom container to hold some alcohol. So the alcohol evaporates slowly
It’s a actually from ATLAS one of 4 detectors on the LHC. It was ATLAS and CMS that independently confirmed the existence of the Higgs Boson in 2012, smashing protons in fact.
Made one in eighth grade 1980's-ish, for science fair. (Dry ice / methyl alc.) Didn't work, (sigh), but presentation was amazing! - apparently, still on my to-do list (y'know, unresolved issues and all that).
Area of ATLAS detector on t-shirt: 25% (estimated) Area of cloud chamber in contraption: 50% (est.) Product: 12,5%. Area of black on black t-shirt: 75% (est.) Area of black on contraption: 25% (est.) Product: 18,75%. Considering the t-shirt is bigger than the cloud chamber, I win, unless there is some unknown bias. I win a cloud chamber?
Is the custom ice block on the bottom needed or can I just use store bought ice packs, gel already inside? I suppose the thin layer of metal will conduct heat better than the ice pack’s plastic but is that difference significant enough?
You first of all need a smooth surface - you need to be able to seal the cloud chamber. Hence the metal plate. You could place a flat plate on frozen gel packs, but you will get inconsistent temperature gradients, and it will warm it significantly quicker, limiting it's usefulness
This should be a demo in every school teaching basic science. I’ve done physics and the toughest thing is trying to imagine things you can’t see with your own eyes.
They actually brought one to my high school! I remember it very clearly as i was already interested in physics and i was the coolest thing ever to happen in that school
Yea, imagining "Cannibal Holocaust" is pretty hard,- but I bet it's easy when you've seen it with your own eyes.
Something I noticed about my "proof of concept" chamber from two years ago.
Height: you NEED distance (15-20cm) between the felt (alcohol vapor source) and the cold plate. If too close, the cold plate will quickly prevent alcohol from evaporating.
Mine was made with a "pint" canning jar. Later changed to a "quart" jar (for distance).
The chamber NEEDS to be warm on the top, but very cold on the bottom.
Which why he is using a warm water tank.
correct, you need that differential
awW! the store they had two of, literally, the exact container he has on top and no taller ones. I have 11 cm clearance and just completed the coupling. I guess I'm hosed. Unless maybe I have more area and volume than you had, because this shortie is a quart, but that probably just hurts and helps equally... The first part went so well having a little milling machine to get the bottom/top out with nicely in minutes. Sealed it on with the tape and then read the 15-20cm update :( lol... guess I'll try it... dunno if size of felt or sponge will help... thinner=all closer to the warmth, larger=more with more intertia but closer to the cold...
@@OtterLakeFlutes I think it will still be ok. The original concept came Japanese researchers and they used two plastic cups.
OK i ready our comment about distance thanks.
Please make a video
I made this on a smaller scale, with a 4" square heatsink and 3-1/2" square containers. I had to make one modification- I stapled the felt to the aluminum tape as the alcohol was dissolving the adhesive holding it in place (both the double sided tape and the aluminum tape). It worked perfectly the first time. Great experiment, thank you. I obtained all the components except the alcohol and flat black spray paint (for the surface of the heatsink) from Amazon, if anyone is interested I will supply my shopping list.
You did it! Awesome. That magic of seeing these tracks after your own construction must have been a special moment. Sure, a lot of us could just purchase a cloud chamber, but actually MAKING one must have taught you so much more. True science. God bless brother.
@@TheHexCube Yes, seeing that first track was pretty cool. I was sitting there thinking there's no way this is going to work, not the first time. Then bang... there it was. I almost jumped out of my chair. I'm 71 years old and still love doing this stuff.
On my 2nd attempt and still can't get it to work :/
@@ArifGangji Keep trying, don't give up & good luck my friend! Will be awesome to see these amazing particles fly through something you've created. It IS possible to achieve.
Hey, if you still have it can I get your list?
I can’t thank you enough. I attempted to make one of these years ago using the dry ice method, I didn’t have much success. My kids are a little bit older now, but I bet they will still like this, I’m going to give it a shot, thank you again.
man i've been watching a few videos now about this because i wanted one. people make them and they are so expensive. i can do this right here today. love it. great video
@@MadScientist267 ... that you're keeping secret?
I'm off to build one! My grandsons will be amazed --- and so will I! SO AWESOME.
Tried this a couple of days ago and it worked! I used a much smaller container but it still worked, the key is to be patient in the beginning as it takes a couple of minutes to start working but once it works you just need to make sure there is enough alcohol and the top is kept hot.
What a great idea with the heat sink and gel. I can’t get dry ice very easy around here and I’ve been wanting to do this experiment with the kids. Thanks for the video and the person who came up with the idea. =]
Great! And now, let's turn a few loops of electrical cable on each side, to produce a magnetic field and try to identify the particles! :-)
I wish. I did a calculation on what magnetic field is need to get a noticeable radius. Let’s just say a few coils won’t cut it. There a reason why ATLAS and CMS have superconducting magnets in the order of 8T plus. 🤓
A couple of neodymium magnets stacked, 2 on each side, on either side of the source might set up enough of a field...
Love this video!! We have a giant cloud chamber in school but this is somewhat way cooler! Will try this with my pupils one day. Thanks a lot!!
I can't thank you enough, this is such an easier and more manageable setup.
connection t-shirt and cloud chamber: Cloud chamber was first used to find a anti elektron by Anderson starting the hunt for the remainder of antimatter which is done in Cern. I believe your T-shirt is a seethrough of the LHC at CERN
🤓 good pick up.
dammit, one day late:p
@@milztempelrowski9281 I'm way late but answered anyway. Nice to see I was right. Not often it happens. I coulda won something if there were a prize.
my answer:
A2Q@0:50-0:55 Your t-shirt is a particle map* from the LHC demonstrating the GOD Particle maybe? When two particles collide they emit a shower of radiation, radiation that is demonstrated with our cloud chamber, similar to the LHCs(particle collider) detector. Do I win a prize?
"Dry ice is easy to come by"
Unfortunately in Poland dry ice is almost impossible to get. You can order some on the Internet but it's pretty expensive.
So this design is really helpful and I will be making this soon! Thanks!
you can use an co2 fire extinguisher to make dry ice if its easier to come by
@@Freezone7 Yeah a 5kg CO2 fire extinguisher costs like 12% of my monthly paycheck. And considering how little actual dry ice you can produce with the extinguisher it would be cheaper to just order the dry ice online.
The cheapest I could find is 5kg for 3% of my monthly paycheck but it's expected that around 2kg of that will sublimate in transit and the rest will last 1-2 days.
It's an okay price for one time events like parties and stuff but buying that every time you want to play with a cloud chamber is not a good solution.
Did you make it? How was it. Did it work?
@@chakshupunj5943 Yeah, never got around to it, had a lot of other stuff going on. Maybe some day.
@@Undy1 oh okok
Thanks heaps, I'm a science teacher and will be making one our current unit it radiation.
thank you so much. this was incredibly helpful as i’d made the mistake of trying to figure it out myself. much appreciated.
This has feaked me out....I only wondered yesterday how to make one of these (Only in my head no searches nor speaking to anyone about it) and this video pops up as my suggested watch......Are google reading minds now?. Also cheers dude gonna make one.
Just to assist by way of clarifying about materials the welding rod that you specify is actualy a tungsten rod, however they are sold as 1.5% and 2% thoriated or as some with an interest in transistors would say the term is doped with thorium. They are used for tig welding of carbon steels primarily. Hope that helps.
Fantastic project. Thank you for reminding me (all of us) that doing science doesn't need to cost a lot of money. About 10 years ago, I built a cloud chamber using dry ice... but I am curious, Why did you choose to place the felt and alcohol on top, rather than below (on the cold surface)? If the alcohol-soaked felt is placed at the top where it's much warmer, I expect that the alcohol will evaporate too quickly and will not create the necessary supersaturated conditions in the chamber... at least that is what I thought I knew.
You need the alchohol to quickly evaporate. You then have a large temperature gradient to develop a super saturated region above the plate. (-18 - 60 degrees)
In the case of dry ice versions you don’t need hot water but your temp gradient is now -78 to 20 degrees approx )
So probably a little better but limited by the fact you need dry ice
I can think of improvements, such as having the top container be made of metal and using a thermal adhesive to bind them. Also, if you add more felt strips or loops, you could get more surface area to vaporize the alcohols, and produce more vapor. Maybe you could run a liquid through a heatsink on the top, and produce more thermals up there for longer? You might also be able to run this for awhile just using peltier modules. Who knows, I should try this out myself! Great video!
You could do that. See how you go. As long as there is a good temperature difference so that you can create a good supersaturated cloud of alcohol vapour, and maintain that so that you can have a decent time trying to observe tracks. I think there could be a number of variations I could still work. The original Wilson cloud chamber simply used water.
I'm slightly annoyed that I'm only now finding your channel.
There's an incredible lack of science content creators that are tolerable for Australian viewers.
I'm so happy right now.
thanks so much
What makes a science teacher tolerable for Australians?
@@MrWhateva10 the common complaints I hear are that American educators seem to over simplify their content and underestimate their audience.
Of the people I've spoken to at length, a stronger portion of them definitely feel like they're being spoken down to like a child when watching a lot of online content, or content aimed at lay masses.
@@Dylfunkle Interesting, thanks. I haven't had that experience, but I haven't been looking for it either. Maybe it's the accent? Americans are pretty famous for blunt and simplified names for things... "Fall" because the leaves fall instead of "Autumn", that kind of thing. Does that make us intolerable though? PBS SpaceTime is an American channel with an Australian-native speaker that certainly covers some pretty advanced subjects if it's just the accent. But, conversely I find the British Royal Institute's videos to be bare-bones populist science that skims over the top of most subjects without getting any details at all, and yet still enjoyable presentations. Are you familiar with Tech Ingredients channel? That may be an example of an American educator that's covering some reasonably advanced topics but has a tendency to spend a lot of time covering them, building up for layperson understanding. If you're already familiar with the subject you can get quite bored.
I definitely have not found there to be a shortage of deep science content out there though, so I encourage you to shake up the TH-cam algorithm and see if it can't get you better recommendations.
@@MrWhateva10 I feel I may have come across poorly, or perhaps too harshly spoken, and for that I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to imply that all Americans are intolerable, certainly there are some fantastic speakers and communicators from the American circles.
I do quite enjoy a large amount of PBS media, particularly Eons, I'm something of a paleo-dork and the hosts there are largely quite charming and visibly smarter than the concepts they're talking about.
I think you found exactly the right word to capture my intent when you mentioned "populist science", and that could very well be my problem.
The kind of short repetition and horrible fast cut editing in the style of histories greatest warrior, or any list of "deadliest" creatures, (I know these aren't exactly scientific, but they're the most extreme examples of the genre I'm trying to explain), that's the part I struggle with.
It takes a five minute clip, cuts it in a way that it can be narrated for fourth five minutes with commercial breaks, and then is spoon fed to the audience with no faith in their ability to retain the information.
The movie Idiocracy is another exaggerated example of my sense of frustration.
I see myself as incredibly average in intellectual areas, and even still I find a vast amount of media to be targeted beneath my level.
At the end of the day, I'm just an idiot with an opinion, but you've given me some points to consider, so thank you for that.
Thanks for the video! Making a cloud chamber been on the bucket list for ages, and you've made it possible!
yeah he is making a video so the diy gets out but he didn’t invent this design.
Thanks for this video! I wish I had seen this a few days ago. I went through 10lbs of dry ice over the past few days trying to get that version to work. Never could get it working (i couldn't get the saturation layer). There are no dry ice suppliers in my town so I have to drive 40 minutes to the city for it. I'm going to order the materials for this one and give it a try!
The gel pack is genius
The intro just about blew my speakers up then I have to turn it up to a ridiculous level to hear you speak, then you insert more loud as hell bits.
Thanks for that.
Thank you, I really enjoyed it, did not notice how the 16 minute wideo gone. Looking forward the most batiful part: Another video about the Physics of particles making the traces
This is such a great way to build a cloud chamber that is safe and effective. I’m absolutely using this method with my kids. I have a small piece of Trinitite that I want to observe to see if it’s still active, though I’ve been told it isn’t.
This was so awesome. I can't wait to build my own. .I'm happy I found this
Knew I should've calculated the temperature difference curves!
Was considering making a refrigeration system for a cryo based unit, largely out of being cheap and a bit lazy to run out for dry ice. Then, ran across this which I had considered and dismissed without calculating it.
Might go with a multistage peltier cooler for the cold base still, for on demand purposes, but likely will go with the cold gel first.
Been looking into this because well, had a smoke detector fail and when it was replaced, maintenance handed the defective unit to me. Needed a resistor out of the unit for something else, so while I was there, ripped it the rest of the way down. So, got a nice Americium source button that needs a proper display as a conversation piece.
I'll also be building a nice radiation spectrometer from plans on CERN's educational site. Comes with a nice database of readings from that photodiode scintillation detector, again, good conversation piece. Toss in an alcohol fueled steam engine and sterling engine on adjacent shelves just for giggles...
Well, after seeing your video I ordered 10 small aliminium heatsinks and they are right now on the freezer, hope I can see at least som emuons tomorrow 🤞
Fingers crossed!
@@PhysicsHigh it didn't work, maybe my heatsinks weren't cold enough or the water hot enough, i Will let it sit in the freezer for 24 hours and i'll add boiling water Just to ensure that the temperatura difference is achieved and i Will be using a smaller amount of 99% isopropanol, because this time the felt that was too wet. Any other advice?
was there a good seal between the container and the plate?
Make sure plate is free of water crystals too.
Are you just looking for muons. They not common and dependent on local conditions.
I assume plate is well prepared with no bubbles. In gel. And well frozen.
@@PhysicsHigh well, today I had better luck, mist was formed and it lasted for several minutes but unfortunately i couldnt see any traces, so I'll wait till tomorrow night and go to the balcony with the cloud chamber to have a better chance of detecting anything as i am not shielded by the roof and walls of my house.
@@juanpepe1234 put banana nearby they emit something
Astrophysics has pulled me in. Can't wait to do this experiment!
I think I know what project I'm going to do this summer. Great video!! 👍👍👍
Love that shirt! It looks like an image of a high energy particle collision.
That’s exactly what it is. I got it at CERN.
I made a cloud chamber with a ultrasonic mist maker and a water pump. The cold steam wants to sink so the pump manifold makes use of the vinturi effect to pull the cold steam into a 14 liter chamber. One thing I noticed was the plants growing underneath the chamber. Not sure why they started growing towards the angle of the chamber. Because my setup is outdoors I get a lot of green water condensation on the plastic.
You are my hero, I’m gonna try this thanks !!!
Your shirt is an artists depiction of the collisions occurring within science devices like the Large Hadron Collider.
I wouln't be surprised if this is an actual reconstruction from the Atlas detector of the LHC, maybe a H->ZZ or H->WW decay going into 4 jets, with the jets reconstructed as the red vectors.
@@haakoflo The red lines past the casing as if to mark their trajectory if it continued? Not a bad conclusion. :D Those red lines are what prompted me to think artists depiction, but it is possible that its an actual scan.
I saw many videos using dry ice, this is the first without it, very nice way to experiment. Thanks for the nicely explained video!!
Glad it was helpful!
Very nice demonstration!
Thank you!!
This is a fantastic project! I follow Tesla555 due to my interest in Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils. He presented an elaborate, nicely built cloud chamber using TEC coolers on a big heatsink, and some resistors to heat the ethanol under a bell jar. This is a great low cost simple and approachable version.
At first glance your shirt appears to be a cross section view of particles detected in a particle accelerator collision. The most interesting of these particles imo must be the Higgs Boson. Can't wait for us to figure out how it gives fermions their mass!
Did CMS/Atlas not solve that?
@@viola_case I'm not sure. I know CMS/ATLAS was the experiment resulting in the discovery of the Higgs Boson in 2012, and as far as I I'm aware, the mass comes from an interaction with the Higgs Field, not actually the Higgs Boson, as it also gets it's mass from the Higgs Field, but I don't know if there's science describing how the interaction actually induces mass in a particle. I'd have to do some research. I'd love to see Feynman diagrams of the different Higgs interactions!
Edit: The wikipedia page about the Higgs Mechanism is, fairly, mostly beyond my understanding, but I _think_ it's answered my question. I had suspected it might have something to do with symmetry breakings, and I _think_ this _maybe_ confirms it? Probably not, because it only talks about bosons, and the spontaneous symmetry breaking mechanism apparently seems to contradict some other well corroborated theorems.
There's also the issue of whether or not we try to involve gravitational attraction.
Idk, as much as I wish I was a particle physicist, I'm definitely not yet :D and there's much more for me to look at besides a Wikipedia page lol
Fantastic!! I hace a 1" thick chunk of metal the same the same dimensions as the heat sink you made. Can i put that into the freezer overnight and use that instead? Thank you!
It may work but it will most likely heat up quicker. So you will have a more limited time. No harm in trying
@@PhysicsHigh thank you!!
Design improvement suggestions:
* Have 2 heat syncs, heat conductively stuck back to back,
* Pour gel into a container that's smaller than the cloud chamber, but larger than the heat sync,
* Submerge half of heat sync assembly into gel
* Freeze assembly,
* Add a heating element to the water tank
This should extend the cloud chamber's usable period.
I'm not sure I can follow your suggestions. Smaller than the cloud chamber, but larger than the (back to back) heat sink.?
How is that physically possible? Back to back heat sinks would leave fins on top and bottom?
@@msmeyersmd8
Heat syncs are very common and come in a wide range of sizes.
Select a pair that fit inside the chamber, so that you limit how much you are cooling the air outside the chamber.
The greater surface area of the exposed side speeds up energy transfer, making the chamber's useful period start earlier and more consistent over the the experiment.
The volume of gel can be => the syncs fin void space since the sync is placed in a tub of it, extending the life. Inside of being limited to 100ml you can use as much as you like.
Heating element for the top is a very common device and a lot come with thermostats. This will maintain the 60°C for the period of the experiment.
The combination of the greater surface area of the cooling sync and a constantly heated upper element creates a more consistent temperature gradient.
@@msmeyersmd8
Heat transfer is dependent on surface area.
By having a large surface area on both sides you maximise the transfer of heat from inside the chamber to the gel.
@@2011dyrose Thanks. I see what you're getting at. On first glance, it just didn't make sense to me. Thinking it through I can better understand the thermodynamics of the system. Any good ideas about making a larger volume? Taller and more rectangular. Or do we run into the limits of this type of reusable cloud chamber.
I've done the dry ice. Works very good because of the T differential. But a "pain in the arse" to set up. And not accidentally freeze you fingertips off. 👍🏻
@@msmeyersmd8
The volume of the tub containing the cooling gel is key.
The larger the volume compared to the cloud chamber and heatsink, the longer the cooling effect lasts.
Although you might start running out of alcohol at the top after a certain period (mouse water feed to the sponge?).
Wonder if salt water would be cheaper replacement for the gel?
Brilliant!! Will see if I can make one with my students.
Don't use under a metal roof or on thenground floor (with additional floors above you). The less mass between you and the sky, the better. Otherwise, you are forced to use an internal radioactive source. Thoriated rods from a TIG welder will work.
Because of the current logistics issues high strength isopropyl alcohol is harder to get in some places. You could try salting out lower concentration to get the water to drop out. Note salt won't work with ethanol.
I made a large cloud chamber using a 10 gallon aquarium and with dry ice and it worked great. When I watched your video about using freezer gel I got excited, but then ran into a problem. You stated that your freezer gets down to -18-degrees C. I'm in the USA and our freezers rarely get below 0-degrees C, which isn't cold enough to run a cloud chamber. Are UK freezers that much colder than ours?
Are you sure? Here is Australia freezers are set to -18 Celsius. That’s 0 F.
0 degrees C is not cold enough for anything
@@PhysicsHigh It seems I had an equipment malfunction. I measured the temperature with an infrared thermometer, which I have now determined to be malfunctioning. Switching to a different thermometer now gives me a temperature of 2.0-degrees F. I apologize for bothering you. Thank you for an interesting video and replying so quickly.
I also apologize for thinking you were in the UK. I'm in Southern California USA.
Not a problem at all 🤓. Happy to help
That is the easiest one , thank you for your hard work
Hey there, thanks so much for this tutorial. I've tried it 3 times now with no complete success. I followed your instructions to the T and I went and purchased a high lumen work light to help with the illumination of the vapor. I was able to see the vapor, but only to about 5cm above the heatsink. Is this what you'd expect? For some reason, I envisioned the entire chamber saturated with the vapor. If so, do I only need to focus light on the bottom half of the chamber?
Also,can the water temperature be too hot for this experiment? Thanks for your help!
Did you ever succeed? I got no fog at all
Ceriated or thoriated tungsten rods for Tig welding. Find someone who welds Stainless steel and they will give you some of the spent rods
oh wow fascinating!
You can get at Amazon they need to be red on the top .
Dope video! Haven’t seen a cloud chamber with out dry ice … like that you link the history too👏
Yet another way of making a cloud chamber! Thank you. I've had partial success with peltier's at surface temp of -40°, but didn't warm the alc. I've recently seen designs with a high voltage mesh - what's that about? I know strong magnets can deflect particles to aid in identification, but H/V? Many, many thanks for the upload, subscribed.
Good idea, but what do you think, is it possible to create "cloud" with an ultrasonic humidifier and isopropyl alcohol? Most cloud chambers based on temperature differences, is another way to do that? Thank you for your video, I will try yours. :)
This is a good idea for an experiment. I've seen those little ultrasonic compact elements inserted into a little dish producing visible water vapor. Could it work with alcohol? Uh oh, though... flamability! Vaporized alcohol is very volatile!
@@OtterLakeFlutes Yepp, alcohol is very flammable. Otherwise, I watched a lot of videos about cloud chambers, but half of them used dry ice (which I don't know, where to buy in east Europe), or Peltier cells with large power. I think, humidifier won't work, because the key is the oversaturated air with alcohol, but this wouldn't have particles small enough for this. If someone tries it, I would be curious to result.
@@pmate95 yeah come to think of it, it would be its own agitator like the particle that flies through...even if it managed to truly vaporize the alcohol (which is dubious) it would probably instantaneously re-precipitate from harmonic vibrations anyway. Esp. cheap ultrasonic elements are noisy with harmonics. I got a "fat burning" ultrasound probe to do, instead, therapy on my shoulder. It helps alright, and it's probably an illegal (unlicensed) level of ultrasound (unlike hokey, weak gimmicks) but I worry about it giving he hearing damage, lol. Unlike the medical probe at the clinic, this one works similary except the harmonics squeal loudly in my ears like some aquatic alien! Couldn't believe it that much noise could make it through a foot of meat to my ears. And right over my shoulder blade bone, wow. Then it's like my heat is going to explode with audible harmonics. Never happened at the clinic, but I can tell this probe does have powerful ultrasound (and no just sonic) because of my experience with the sensation, effects, and you can vaporize a water droplet on the pad. I don't think my wife will let me use if for a could chamber though, lol, she paid $275
Very good..very cheap.. very easy..and superinteresting
I just made this, as you directed in your video above, and it worked exceedingly well! We did have a question about the tracks we observed...some were very thin and straight, some were thin and curved and some were much thicker and longer...I'm assuming that the different tracks made were due to different types of charged particles with different energies...do you know what the basic difference is between the shorter, thinner tracks and the longer, thicker tracks? Is that just due to particles with higher energy? Or are we seeing different types of particles? Thanks for the clear directions in your video - I'll be doing this in class this next school year with my students!
Different particles leave different tracks
@@grusio_der_kosmonaut ... Yes, they implied that; and of COURSE that's what they represent. What else could different tracks possibly represent? Were they to assume that different tracks are all the same types of particles?? What an astoundingly unhelpful, patronizingly ignorant contribution you spent your time to type out to this genuine person. I'm not even 100% on why this rubs me the wrong way as much as it does, I think because descending to the depths of mind needed to imagine what you were thinking is almost painful.
Alright I took a short walk to cool off, sorry I went ham on that dude up there ☝️
*ahem*
Particle identification may be carried out by the differences in the geometry and thickness of their tracks.
• Short thin zig-zag
› Low energy electrons (beta-particles)
• Long thick straight
› Heavy charged particles
› Protons
› 4He++- ions
• Thinner / slightly curved
› Muons
› Similar to the latter type
* (Quantitative evaluations for γ-radiation is quite difficult in cloud chambers)
Energy of the particles can be determined measuring track length. Energy distribution and range-energy dependence can be calculated from the data. From the thickness of the tracks the stopping power of the particles can be deduced. Another way for particle discrimination and energy determination is their different absorption in various materials.
@@owlredshift Shit went from 0 to 100 real fucking quick
These are so beautiful
Thank you very much. I'll try it as soon as possible.
Is there a reason an evaporator from a refrigeration unit cannot be used for the cold "source", and a heater with a thermal regulator to maintain the temperature of the upper container?
they do that... like, commnercial-grade, inevitably a larger project than you first envision, like many things. one guy tried different things and it had to be cold enough it was like the element om the freezer quickly freezing water crystals onto it before the field would saturate... this on the other hand I'm half done already in a half hour (I have a benchtop milling machine and a 1.8" endmill and made cutting the top so easy I almost felt guilty. I just don't have the liqui-gel cellulose so I'm thinking of trying some 25% antifreeze / 75% water, suspended in sodium polycarbanate "gel" crystals all of which is in the garage. And a mean heat sink from a transmitter. If it doesn't work I'll dig out the gel and try again. I think I have enougfh head room... I have two of the bins he has on top and not the taller one... he says 15-20cm at least... Crap I've got 11 I'm hosed :( ...they didn't have the taller one... they had literally the exact one he has on top at Dollar General.
Or use a Peltier plate.
@@OtterLakeFlutes F whatever item you were using has a freezing point just slightly above the temperature you’re going to bring it down to, you can actually get a little more energy out of it that way and it should theoretically last longer.
Would you say the heat transfer from the hot water to the lower chamber is enhanced by not using the aluminum between the two chambers and just using the bottom of the upper one to transmit the heat? It does appear to me that the aluminum material there would cause the heat to be reflected back to the water side rather than down toward the felt.
Thanks for the tutorial! Dry ice is alway a pain to get a hold of. I have just finished building it. Do you have suggestions for keeping the bottom chamber walls clear. I can’t see through into the chamber as there is too much condensation on the walls.
Maybe seal the bottom, I think he recommended vasaline around the rim, so water can't get in and condensate on the walls and base. If you've already done that then I'm at a loss
What purity rubbing alcohol are you using? If it's off-the-shelf stuff I'd recommend getting 99.9% so there isn't any water vapor being created.
Great! Please show us more results, though!
It shows the decay of radioactive isotopes which is what your Cloud chamber is also showing that's a collision inside of the Large hadron collider if I'm correct?
Im not fluid in my understanding or in the terminology regarding many areas of physics. Love your description and use of materials to achieve a result by the way, great stuff. Ahh now I see after watching again you put your isopropynol alcohol in the felt ugh. I missed that the first time I watched and couldn't understand why you would put an insulator in the top of your chamber lol.
The purpose of the felt is simply to hold the alcohol And since it’s a very fibrous it has a very large surface area and thus when it gets warm the alcohol vaporises very quickly
Great video.
Definitely doing this with my kids. :)
Cool cloud chamber. I think you're using the wrong term though - the alcohol vapor in the chamber is supersaturated, not saturated. Also, I believe the image on your shirt specifically is an image of the Cern Atlas event display of the Higgs (H -> 4mu) candidate event.
I stand corrected - it's what I meant but didn't pick up the error in my narration, and yes the shirt I got from CERN (ATLAS office actually ) and specifically chosen for this video. I try to wear shirts that align with the topic I am doing ;-)
The t-shirt looks like the Atlas detector of LHC. The similarity to a cloud chamber is that the LHC would have semiconductor layers around the centre. When a charged particle passes through the semiconductor (probably silicon), it will create a electron-hole pair, which behaves similarly to a positive and negative ion in a gas. By applying an electic potential difference across the semiconductor, the electron and hole can be kept from recombining, and instead a small current will be detected when a particle passes through. (With the voltage set just right, having a few electron-hole pairs in the semiconductor will reduce the resistance enough to cause a cascade, where more electron-hole pairs are created from the energy of the electric field, causing a mini-lightening inside the semiconductor).
Next, by applying a strong magnetic field over the whole detector, one causes charged particles to follow a curved path, where the curvature will indicate the charge and momentum of the particle. And at the edge, there is probably a calorimeter (yellow), that abosorbs the remaining energy of the particles, and combined with momentum, it can be used to identify the mass and velocity of the particle.
Basically, this approach follows the same principles as when using a cloud chamber, except that the particle traces can be read out electronically instead of taking a photographic picture, allowing for much higher resolution and more events to be captured per second.
As for the event itself, it looks like a reconstruction of a Higgs decay. I would guess this is a H->ZZ->4I event. The red lines seem like reconstructions of the momentums of the 4 jets.
Yep. Got that shirt from CERN and worn on purpose.
Atlas uses three detection principles whereby silicon semiconductors are one. It also uses ionization detectors and scintillators. They all have their specific uses such as triggering, energy measurement, etc.
@@upnorthandpersonal When talking about semiconductor I was referring to the tracker part, as that is the part that corresponds directly to the cloud chamber of the video. From memory (from 25 years back) the tracker part is using primarily semiconductors. Maybe I remember wrong?
@@haakoflo No, that's correct. I just wanted to expand on what you wrote; the scintillation detectors are the calorimeter you mention.
EDIT: Correction to the above. This is indeed a H->ZZ->4l even, but after reading the discovery article, I realize that the red arrows are NOT reconstructed jets, but rather individual electrons and/or muons, as these do not decay into hadrons. The reason they do not curve visibly in the magnetic field is their high energy. The length of the arrows may represent the energy of the particles (which at this highly relativistic energy is basically the same as momentum), or it could simply reflect where the track ends. In the latter case, if the track extends beyond the electromagnetic calorimeters, it would indicate that this is a 4 muon event, where the tracks end in the muon chambers in the outer parts of the the detector. As it turns out, the ZZ to muons and/or electrons channel is relatively rare (low cross section) , but it has a very low background, making it easy to detect, which is why it was probably the most important channel when the disovery was made.
Me mistakenly interpreting the red arrows as jets probably stem from the fact that I spent a couple of years in the 90s looking for 4b events, where the b quarks do form jets, and the events look pretty similar.
This presentation would show a HH->4b event, where the bottom quark jets are represented as cones, not lines:
indico.cern.ch/event/731450/contributions/3090100/attachments/1710518/2759053/ATLAS_4b_strategy.pdf
Thanks! Maybe I missed it, but: what's the point in using a heatsink + gel rather than just a thick plate of solid metal? Wouldn't steel have overall better thermal mass? Or does that gel actually do better?
The thick metal plate would warm up quickly limiting the time you can perform the experiment
@@PhysicsHigh thanks, i didn't realize how much better than steel water is for specific heat capacity. Still, it would seem that the volumetric heat capacity of steel is about 75% that of water, so you might get a useable amount of time from a simple steel plate of the same volume?
@@PhysicsHigh also, given that the plate in the video is only about half water, and the (presumably aluminum) metal has less heat capacity than steel, maybe a steel plate of equivalent size would be even closer in performance than 75%? And if you are going to spend $40 you can probably get a thicker plate of steel anyway? Might simplify this already simple design even more?
The gel will stay a a constant temperature until it has experienced a full state transition from frozen to molten. This lets you have a temporary constant temperature source.
This is great! Out of curiosity, would firing a simple semiconductor laser through it result in anything... interesting?
So cool.
Supercool! I build one asap!
I've made a cloud chamber based on this method and nothing! There are no streaks of cloud at all. I can see the tiny droplets of vapor falling but apart from that, nothing! I even spent £40 on the heat sink too!
Anybody got any suggestions why it isn't working? Or was it working and the guy in the video is giving the viewer BS?
Fantastic! Thanks.😊
Rad! Do you think a Peltier and a heat sink could get cold enough?
At the beginning of your video you maybe refer to the discover of the kaon in 1947 using a cloud chamber?
Nice video to explain the concept and without dry ice. How did you cut the plastic???
I used a dremel
Thank you for the great explanation. I still have a question though. What distance is better to have between the heatsink and the felt? 14cm or 21 cm?
I had success with both. Are you might get a stronger gradient of temperature with the shorter amount which may result in better results. Are the original design based on the Japanese paper used two plastic tumblers so much shorter.
@@PhysicsHigh Thank you for the Quick answer!
Thoughts on troubleshooting steps if it didn't work? Thanks! Using 91% isopropyl
is there a technological limit to the size of cloud chamber?
For those not used to the metric system Temperatures, 60 deg C is 140 deg F.
So cool! I’m gonna try this thank you for the video brother!
Your shirt is an event at a particle collider! I have a similar shirt I got of the LHC at CERN :)
yep - got it at the ATLAS office at CERN.
What you could do is soak a piece of tissue paper in alcohol and stick it up on the top of the bottom container to hold some alcohol. So the alcohol evaporates slowly
What kind of protection do you have against radiation? is it healthy to touch the electrode with your hand?
Your shirt is the large hadron collider and they are smashing two together to get a bunch of sub atomic particles
It’s a actually from ATLAS one of 4 detectors on the LHC. It was ATLAS and CMS that independently confirmed the existence of the Higgs Boson in 2012, smashing protons in fact.
I wonder if I could use a cold plate freezer to keep this thing going for longer periods of time?
Gotta try this!
Made one in eighth grade 1980's-ish, for science fair. (Dry ice / methyl alc.) Didn't work, (sigh), but presentation was amazing! - apparently, still on my to-do list (y'know, unresolved issues and all that).
Your shirt looks like the explosion map of a particle accelerator
It is.
@@PhysicsHigh wow!
I want to just buy a plug in one that looks as amazing as the Veritasium video. What would that set me back?
This is pretty cool
Easy. The part of the cloud chamber overlaying the black t-shirt is black. The black t-shirt is black. Connection established.
Area of ATLAS detector on t-shirt: 25% (estimated) Area of cloud chamber in contraption: 50% (est.) Product: 12,5%. Area of black on black t-shirt: 75% (est.) Area of black on contraption: 25% (est.) Product: 18,75%. Considering the t-shirt is bigger than the cloud chamber, I win, unless there is some unknown bias. I win a cloud chamber?
that was badass!!! and useful!!
Cool!!!! I so want to make one now. TY
Love it!
Thanks!!
Is there a specific reason to use a heatsink with gel compared to a block of steel or brass?
Im surprised the alcohol doesnt remove the stickiness of the tape used to secure it
Can you eat the particles after you make them?
Fascinating thank you
do you have any idea how long it takes for the thorium in the electrode to disintegrate?
That's cool
Is the custom ice block on the bottom needed or can I just use store bought ice packs, gel already inside? I suppose the thin layer of metal will conduct heat better than the ice pack’s plastic but is that difference significant enough?
You first of all need a smooth surface - you need to be able to seal the cloud chamber. Hence the metal plate. You could place a flat plate on frozen gel packs, but you will get inconsistent temperature gradients, and it will warm it significantly quicker, limiting it's usefulness
Thank you!
Nice!