Extra info: 1. "But locked diffs split torque" - no, no they don't. An open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diffs can go to 100% on a wheel. Think about a 4x4 that's twin locked, climbing a steep hill, diagonal wheels in the air...pretty much the lower rear wheel is doing all the work. 2. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC. 3. Would tyres make a difference? Not really, no. You can see my Ranger also runs out of alex flex and that has good, new, all-terrains on it. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause. 4. Cross-axle lockers - yes, they would help, but the fundamental problem is front/rear torque distribution.
th-cam.com/video/G-t4uRA75BI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=MQj5X2B14DrvdNro&t=596 In this video, it seems the truck passing a similar ditch more easily. Is there any difference between the two trucks?
@@L2SFBC Think he means sandy munro.. a yankee car teardown guy. His company rips apart teslas and other cars and explains how they all work etc.. A good channel too.
Real offroad, sand dunes where a usual low range is needed, will be interesting how this performs particularly when the batt could be low due to tiny engine using all its power like Simpson Desert and not much to regen the batt. Real world fully loaded testing absolutely needs to be done with such a new platform. Thanks for an objective test Robert and not the 'brand gushing' from most others.
Thank you, and yes this is the sort of test we need to do, load it up, and slog through dunes for a couple of hours. Can the generator keep up? Will anything overheat? This is what needs to be known before I can recommend people replace their diesel utes with it. Same thing for slogging up/down Vic High Country mountains.
@@L2SFBC From experience with an Outlander PHEV for full performance you never let the drive battery get below 25% if facing long hills or hard driving. Even though it maintains a buffer for "pure hybrid" use and is never fully depleted normally it won't be able to provide as much current as a higher state of charge (to protect the battery), so the ICE generator has to do the most work, therefore, less total power.
Great to see that you have called them out for how they have setup the launch model. The fact they haven’t fitted lockers is annoying. They did on the leopard 5 suv but not the shark…… why.
Thanks robert. Good analytical video with objective comparisons too. No bullshit, fluff or annoying music. -good stuff. One thing i would like explained, about hybrids is about the power of these vehicles. They seem to defy physics, either that or their stated max power output is not available 100% of the time. I dont hear this fact mentioned but surely it would be significant to many buyers if the max power (or even half of it) is not always available or drops of suddenly at some point, esp while towing a trailer uphill when you most need it. I mean as i understand it the petrol engine is 135kw, mostly acting as a generator for the power of the front and rear electric motors but able to kick in and physically connect to the front axle when needed. The battery can additionally supply the power for the front and rear electric motors. So when you're using a lot of power towing a trailer uphill or just generally thrashing the ute in the sand etc and deplete the battery power, how do you then get 320kw of thrust (electrical/mechanical or both) power from a 135kw engine? or can you? does the 320kw of power suddenly drop off at some point untill the battery power is restored? Sorry probably havnt explained that very well. Just seems funny how with a relatively small battery that can be depleted easily, a 135kw engine can somehow provide the 320kw of power, esp when you consider generation and power transmission losses etc. Is this 320kw of output always available or does it kind of tell you that only lower power output will be available soon because youre getting low on electrical power. Also, if the ICE engine is physically powering the front diff at least some of that power is not available to provide the watts that should be charging up the battery. In an ICE car, if it states that its a 320kw car, that 320kw is theoretically available 100percent of the time if you were not concerned about the consequences of hammering it at full throttle.
Absolutely superb analysis. For my own city driving, I want to get what is called Suzuki Grand Vitata mild hybrid AWD variant (Suzuki's AllGrip Select) in my country. From your video, it's like a parallel hybrid that's FWD-biased but with a drive shaft that will power the rear wheels as well if it detects slip. The hybrid system there acts like a mileage enhancer - 800+ km on 45 litre petrol tank. Very little power, but I am a slow driver so I am cool with that. One can cruise at 120 kmph in it. What I also like in it is the great suspension for where I live. They AWD has a lockable center diff as well under certain conditions. They also have a FWD strong hybrid variant here that has been frequently tested to deliver 1200+ km on a 45-litre petrol tank, and has an EV mode that kicks in when the speeds are low, like in crawling traffic. But, that one doesn't come with that AWD system that I want over here.
Thank you, more to come. AllGrip Select is an on-demand system, FWD then brings in rears as you say. Happily, it also has a lock mode to ensure the front and rear axles spin at the same speeds, solving the problem you see with the Shark. This is easy with AllGrip as it has a mechanical linkage, whereas with the Shark it has a software powertrain and that is much harder.
@@L2SFBC I have to appreciate the technical videos you make. Thank you so much for that. Numbers and measures are a much better way to evaluate, and you seem to know your stuff.
Software would go a long way yes. It's immensely difficult to program a replacement for diffs/powertrains, and carmakers are proving this every time I look at EVs. The *potential* is there to be better than a mechanical powertrain, but if the software isn't up to it, then the result will be worse.
The utes been on sale in Mexico for a while now. Everyone mentions the engine only couples itself to the generator. The total HP power output is electric motor output, if the Atkinson motor was coupling to the drive train it would be more than the total 450 HP.
only above 70km/h, similar to Sealion6. Remember it is single gear, so having the engine coupled to drive train at low speeds will be very inefficient.
Will be interesting to see how well it does hill descents and whether it has HDC or really strong regen. Very impressive content and analysis as usual!
A technical analysis from a 4x4 experts, 🎉Robert, what else they need to improve in order to tow up to 3.5 tons. I don’t need it much on hardcore off-road but capable to tow 3.5 tons of caravan on Dirt road.
@@L2SFBC tks for the feedback, specifically I'd like to address the range anxiety. Short question_BYD Shark low battery, Full gas tank, want to get home, What Drive Mode/Modes can I use in this situation? NB:I live in the Caribbean & BYD has launched a branch in my country, but we ain't gonna have Charging stations for a Decade or 2... but I'm cool with home charging, ( I live on a small island, WON'T be driving Far... can't really) so I think the BYD Shark6 could be excellent, once I know it can Operate, MOVE, with an Input of gas if the battery is low.
So far the only person i have seen test the off road ability properly. I actually seen someone at that same press event go "it has loads of flex" as he went over that cross axle section wheels in the air XD. I have been worried about its poor implementation of traction control since seeing one of their vehicles struggle over a metal ramp at their own event. Good news its easy enough to fix with software. But will they?
Loads of flex? No! It has a reasonable amount of flex. "Loads" is what a Rubicon can do with its disconnect. What you saw was not a complete offroad test, but it was the best I could do at the location and with the available time. More to come.
looked like you drove faster with your ranger than the byd in that same spot. try same speed and not stoping next time because it looked like you not only drove slower but also stop for a sec with the byd. 21:05
It needs a tweak in the programme & some software upgrades. May be the data gathering and statistics didn't match for actual use. Anyhow, been waiting for this system for decades.
The diff lock on byd discrption is correct. You do split the torque 50/50 when both half can take the toqure. You just have solid axle. You cant make the traction wheel spin, none traction well not spin with diff lock regardless the type. Another correction, brake TCS and stability control are the same thing. They uses the same control model and actuation system. The stability control can achived brake TCS if the control module capable of such.
No, an open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diff can go to 100 on a wheel. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC, as ESC is an umbrella term which incorporates TCS, if TCS is defined as engine and brake traction control.
@@L2SFBC : I am confused. Open diff, left wheel has no grip and spin like crazy while right wheel - which may have some grip - don't spin at all. Vehicule stuck. How is that 50/50? Is it a terminology gotcha? Thanks.
These are all very valid points with one exception: The ute had pure road tires on it. So how it would behave with proper Terrain tires is an unknown. At work I drove extensively in very rough Terrains of all kinds with Rangers/Hiluxes/D-Maxes etc. I have had a couple delivered from work that still had their "normal" tires on them and all then failed to deal with conditions as seen here.
No, that's not right. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. You see with my Ranger that has good all-terrains on it that it also spins when cross-axled. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause.
Brake traction control really just seems like a lazy and cheap way to have limited slip differentials. However, if these two systems work combined, it could be very effective.
BTC is better than an LSD in some ways as it can be more effective and there is no negative effect when it's not working. A really good combination is a torque-biasing cross-axle diff plus BTC. For track cars, I like Torsens, Quaifes or similar, open diffs...not so much.
@@L2SFBCan LSD can transfer more torque to the dri ing wheel. With brake traction control the diff is acting as a gearbox so you get double the wheel speed with half the torque to the drive wheel. I think a better solution would be a diff with a clutch that can be engaged.
Even as a pre-prod vehicle - considering they have completely separate control of front and rear axles, that calibration is terrible. Looks like they'll do a Tesla and releasing in effectively beta stage, and let customers iron out the bugs...
Considering they say they have been testing here for some time, it obviously has not been off road - thats disappointing. Heres hoping they tweak via software updates, wouldn't take much.
Why the complexity for the 4x4 modes? Isn't as simple as send power to the wheels that are turning at a speed closest to the average speed of the vehicle? I appreciate determining the instantaneous speed of the vehicle and supplying the required torque to each wheel is complex but the choices presented to the driver are over the top or marketing hype?
There was a time when Adaptive Terrain Systems were great, but now electronics are so adaptable I query the need for them. The Grenadier does just fine without for example, albeit its BTC is poor, but that's not a adaptive terrain problem.
Interesting analysis. I have the new gen Outlander PHEV, which has a similar drive-train set-up. However, it DEFINITELY has a rear-wheel power bias, especially on acceleration, and a more mature AWD system. It lacks the off-road staples like clearance, protection, tyres etc - but for a soft-roader it's surprisingly capable due to all that low speed torque available and smooth power delivery, especially on sandy tracks and the like common around WA when camping etc. I think BYD has used the same drive-train from their Seal 6 (which is pretty much an Outlander PHEV copy in principle) so I'm interested to see how they have adapted it and whether the absence of a geared low-range will be missed or not.
I have great respect for Mitsubishi's powertrains in their 4x4s and my tests of Evos. BYD doesn't seem to have that pedigree. I drove a Sealion AWD and found it to be feel front-drive biased too. I'm going to look at whether EVs need low range...is the "oh but it develops max torque off idle so no need for low range" mantra actually true? A few calculations make for interesting conclusions...
You sure the byd system is a copy of Misubishi one considering the BYD system is far more efficent, powerful and sophisticated. And the byd pHEv solution was date back in 2008 and the AWD solution was from 2016. Around the time first geen out lander come about.
The BYD DM systems are not a copy of Mitsubishi, but they have similar principles. At least they are not very old fashioned PHEV tech, like the Ranger PHEV will be.
@@vasil7410 Don't have to get defensive of BYD people. I'm merely pointing out the Outlander has been developed in wider markets for longer and that the hybrid drive-trains are more comparable than most, hence my interest. It's not a competition 🙂
BYD doesn't have good traction control behaviour. I have an Atto3 and when a wheel slips it cuts the power and takes too long to increase the power. Other EVs I have tried (Tesla, Volvo, MG4) are so smooth on the traction control you don't feel it.
I don’t think so, as all BYD “off-road” SUVs in China are equipped with physical front/rear locks, a simulated center diff lock and a physical low-gear at the rear axle only.
This vehicle has the articulation of a frying pan. Literally no up travel on either axle in the videos when crossing the ditch at a diagonal. Let's just hope the traction control system is still in the "pre-production" phase and will be improved before production starts.
It's not great, but workable enough. The suspension tune needs work, that's coming in the next video. It's either not locally tuned, or not tuned well.
Quad motors represent even more of a challenge for software programmers as they now have to figure out left/right wheels speeds and torque distribution, not just front/rear. The potential is good, but only if the programming is up to the mark. If not, the result is a vehicle inferior to a conventional drivetrain and potentially even dangerours. See my video on IWD for more.
@@L2SFBC As a person with 34 years software engineering experience across all sorts of industries including automotive, I strongly disagree. It is the most trivial exercise to emulate a triple locked diff setup. You're matching RPM at all corners limited to torque of highest traction wheel by the throttle input. Child's play. Clearly this drive mode would need to be special and isn't suitable for on road conditions unless the goal is 4 wheel helis.
I agree with simple triple-locked, but I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the challenge of effective IWD across many different terrains. There it is much more of a challenge than simply monitoring four wheel speeds and increasing/decreasing torque when a threshold is exceeded. IWD should be able to do better than a triple-locked system, for example torque-bias front or rear as required, and left or right in response to driver input and also conditions varying from high to low speed, low and high mu, load on wheels and more. I think that's a complex task, you don't?
@@L2SFBC yes, but not off road, a bit of scrub is okay off road, be it sand, mud, whatever. The beauty of triple lock is that the torque moves around automatically and the low grip wheels are maximised by keeping the slip angle low or at driver request at least consistent. Triple locked will excell in sand, mud, rock climbing equally. The only reason you might NOT engage them all aside from convenience is potential for breakage. When that is no longer a concern why not run that mode constantly. Keep in mind that the software can do your ackerman speed differences for you automatically as it knows where the steering wheel is, so even that's not at all a concern. On pavement there would be no scrub, but you could for eg spin all 4 wildly and lose control, so not ideal for your average idiot.
No triple locked is not the answer in all offroad conditons. For example in sand it will generate additional drag needlessly, you'd want the torque/wheel speed of each wheel to exactly match the arc, and also pivot the car via torque vectoring. Drive around triple-locked and you'll end up stuck....unless I've misunderstood you? You mean starting triple-locked as a base, and then change as required according to steering angle etc? That would make sense, but I feel some field testing would be needed, and you'd want to torque-steer the car too. Also, I don't want a situation where a rear-locked car loses traction on the back axle and pivots, I want the front to pull through like a locked front, open rear. Then we come to hills....
We had a short on-road section, maybe 10km all up. Time was limited, as is always the case. Often some journos don't even use all the little time they have available.
@@L2SFBC oh right! Interesting! Thanks for filling me in... I just wondered why all the channels I've seen review it didn't seem to have any on road footage... At least not that I've seen yet... So now I understand
![โรงเรียนดัดสันดาน นักเรียนเถื่อน..!! [โรงเรียนไดเม่]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vRKPeXn4Fl4/mqdefault.jpg)
Extra info:
1. "But locked diffs split torque" - no, no they don't. An open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diffs can go to 100% on a wheel. Think about a 4x4 that's twin locked, climbing a steep hill, diagonal wheels in the air...pretty much the lower rear wheel is doing all the work.
2. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC.
3. Would tyres make a difference? Not really, no. You can see my Ranger also runs out of alex flex and that has good, new, all-terrains on it. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause.
4. Cross-axle lockers - yes, they would help, but the fundamental problem is front/rear torque distribution.
th-cam.com/video/G-t4uRA75BI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=MQj5X2B14DrvdNro&t=596 In this video, it seems the truck passing a similar ditch more easily. Is there any difference between the two trucks?
This channel is better than munros
No simping , simply knowledge based
Thanks...who is munros?
@@L2SFBC munro live on TH-cam
youtube.com/@munrolive
@@L2SFBC Think he means sandy munro.. a yankee car teardown guy. His company rips apart teslas and other cars and explains how they all work etc.. A good channel too.
Very interesting and informative. So much useful information despite only having the car for two hours. Well done!
Glad it was helpful!
BYD are know for constant OTA software updates. If the media point out these issues I would bet they they update ASAP.
Maybe. BYD need to a) agree there is a problem b) know how to fix it and c) fix it. We'll see how much of a, b, and c comes true.
If made in China They'll find the way to makes it look bad
Real offroad, sand dunes where a usual low range is needed, will be interesting how this performs particularly when the batt could be low due to tiny engine using all its power like Simpson Desert and not much to regen the batt. Real world fully loaded testing absolutely needs to be done with such a new platform. Thanks for an objective test Robert and not the 'brand gushing' from most others.
Thank you, and yes this is the sort of test we need to do, load it up, and slog through dunes for a couple of hours. Can the generator keep up? Will anything overheat? This is what needs to be known before I can recommend people replace their diesel utes with it. Same thing for slogging up/down Vic High Country mountains.
@@L2SFBC From experience with an Outlander PHEV for full performance you never let the drive battery get below 25% if facing long hills or hard driving. Even though it maintains a buffer for "pure hybrid" use and is never fully depleted normally it won't be able to provide as much current as a higher state of charge (to protect the battery), so the ICE generator has to do the most work, therefore, less total power.
Let another 5-10psi out of the tyres…
nice work mate
Thanks 👍
Great to see that you have called them out for how they have setup the launch model. The fact they haven’t fitted lockers is annoying. They did on the leopard 5 suv but not the shark…… why.
Yes, cross-axle lockers would help, but fundamentally it's a front/rear torque split problem.
Maybe because it isn't built to be a serious off roader because MARKET 😅
It does have some offroad capability. Just the software does not maximise the potential of the hardware.
Thanks robert. Good analytical video with objective comparisons too. No bullshit, fluff or annoying music. -good stuff.
One thing i would like explained, about hybrids is about the power of these vehicles.
They seem to defy physics, either that or their stated max power output is not available 100% of the time. I dont hear this fact mentioned but surely it would be significant to many buyers if the max power (or even half of it) is not always available or drops of suddenly at some point, esp while towing a trailer uphill when you most need it.
I mean as i understand it the petrol engine is 135kw, mostly acting as a generator for the power of the front and rear electric motors but able to kick in and physically connect to the front axle when needed. The battery can additionally supply the power for the front and rear electric motors.
So when you're using a lot of power towing a trailer uphill or just generally thrashing the ute in the sand etc and deplete the battery power, how do you then get 320kw of thrust (electrical/mechanical or both) power from a 135kw engine? or can you? does the 320kw of power suddenly drop off at some point untill the battery power is restored?
Sorry probably havnt explained that very well. Just seems funny how with a relatively small battery that can be depleted easily, a 135kw engine can somehow provide the 320kw of power, esp when you consider generation and power transmission losses etc. Is this 320kw of output always available or does it kind of tell you that only lower power output will be available soon because youre getting low on electrical power.
Also, if the ICE engine is physically powering the front diff at least some of that power is not available to provide the watts that should be charging up the battery.
In an ICE car, if it states that its a 320kw car, that 320kw is theoretically available 100percent of the time if you were not concerned about the consequences of hammering it at full throttle.
Absolutely superb analysis.
For my own city driving, I want to get what is called Suzuki Grand Vitata mild hybrid AWD variant (Suzuki's AllGrip Select) in my country. From your video, it's like a parallel hybrid that's FWD-biased but with a drive shaft that will power the rear wheels as well if it detects slip. The hybrid system there acts like a mileage enhancer - 800+ km on 45 litre petrol tank. Very little power, but I am a slow driver so I am cool with that. One can cruise at 120 kmph in it. What I also like in it is the great suspension for where I live. They AWD has a lockable center diff as well under certain conditions.
They also have a FWD strong hybrid variant here that has been frequently tested to deliver 1200+ km on a 45-litre petrol tank, and has an EV mode that kicks in when the speeds are low, like in crawling traffic. But, that one doesn't come with that AWD system that I want over here.
Thank you, more to come. AllGrip Select is an on-demand system, FWD then brings in rears as you say. Happily, it also has a lock mode to ensure the front and rear axles spin at the same speeds, solving the problem you see with the Shark. This is easy with AllGrip as it has a mechanical linkage, whereas with the Shark it has a software powertrain and that is much harder.
@@L2SFBC I have to appreciate the technical videos you make. Thank you so much for that. Numbers and measures are a much better way to evaluate, and you seem to know your stuff.
Great detailed content. Subscribed
Thanks for the sub!
I feel the shortfalls could be fixed via a software update.
Best to wait a year or ywo before purchase
Software would go a long way yes. It's immensely difficult to program a replacement for diffs/powertrains, and carmakers are proving this every time I look at EVs. The *potential* is there to be better than a mechanical powertrain, but if the software isn't up to it, then the result will be worse.
Thanks
Thank you so much, first Super Thanks on this one!
The utes been on sale in Mexico for a while now. Everyone mentions the engine only couples itself to the generator. The total HP power output is electric motor output, if the Atkinson motor was coupling to the drive train it would be more than the total 450 HP.
go higher speed，more than 100km/h
only above 70km/h, similar to Sealion6. Remember it is single gear, so having the engine coupled to drive train at low speeds will be very inefficient.
Will be interesting to see how well it does hill descents and whether it has HDC or really strong regen.
Very impressive content and analysis as usual!
I'm just finishing Part 2 where I talk about HDC and regen. I'm afraid the news is not good.
I’d be assuming OTA updates for an ABS module wouldn’t be a thing either. But anyway, looking forward to round 2!
No, the ABS is software, so it could be updated as well, make better use of the hardware.
Yeah that would be really nice if it was just something like dropping some new application data on there
A technical analysis from a 4x4 experts, 🎉Robert, what else they need to improve in order to tow up to 3.5 tons. I don’t need it much on hardcore off-road but capable to tow 3.5 tons of caravan on Dirt road.
Stand by for towing & weights analysis, I have the numbers, and it's quite good news!
Looks like a smooth power take up by the drive shafts, or do you think it might snap? Looked Jimny like. Was the type of test I looked out for.
@L2SFBC, Great vid,simple Question. Which mode do I use if I have low to zero battery power, but get a full tank of Gas with the BYD Shark6?
You won't get zero. Lowest will be 15%, and that's an override from 25%. The mode depends on what you want to do with the car.
not sure about Shark, but BYD off-roader leopard 5 with similar setup can generate 20kw with ICE in stationary, max 90kw on road.
@@L2SFBC tks for the feedback, specifically I'd like to address the range anxiety. Short question_BYD Shark low battery, Full gas tank, want to get home, What Drive Mode/Modes can I use in this situation?
NB:I live in the Caribbean & BYD has launched a branch in my country, but we ain't gonna have Charging stations for a Decade or 2... but I'm cool with home charging, ( I live on a small island, WON'T be driving Far... can't really) so I think the BYD Shark6 could be excellent, once I know it can Operate, MOVE, with an Input of gas if the battery is low.
So far the only person i have seen test the off road ability properly. I actually seen someone at that same press event go "it has loads of flex" as he went over that cross axle section wheels in the air XD. I have been worried about its poor implementation of traction control since seeing one of their vehicles struggle over a metal ramp at their own event. Good news its easy enough to fix with software. But will they?
Loads of flex? No! It has a reasonable amount of flex. "Loads" is what a Rubicon can do with its disconnect. What you saw was not a complete offroad test, but it was the best I could do at the location and with the available time. More to come.
Sand mode looks pretty good to be fair but I don't think fancy traction control can ever beat a proper locker.
looked like you drove faster with your ranger than the byd in that same spot. try same speed and not stoping next time because it looked like you not only drove slower but also stop for a sec with the byd. 21:05
Both cars came to a halt in pretty much the same spot, thus forcing BTC to work.
Yep. The momentum carried the ranger through. It would be interesting to see the ranger stop in the same position and then drive out the same.
The weirdest thing about the cross axial crawling is the engine just runs to a preset rpm to charge the battery pack, now crazy rev variation.
So, can it tow a caravan long distance? Plus gcm and better tow capacity
Got all the detail on that, coming soon. Only so much can go into one video.
How about a give power to 4 wheels button
should be the default!
@@L2SFBC My new three setting proposal 1: Adaptive TC 2: All 4 wheel 3: OFF
Question.: SInce most these cars are now "software" based, the slipping issue in snow mode may very well be just a software update correct?
Yes, proper software would help immensely.
It needs a tweak in the programme & some software upgrades. May be the data gathering and statistics didn't match for actual use.
Anyhow, been waiting for this system for decades.
The diff lock on byd discrption is correct. You do split the torque 50/50 when both half can take the toqure. You just have solid axle. You cant make the traction wheel spin, none traction well not spin with diff lock regardless the type.
Another correction, brake TCS and stability control are the same thing. They uses the same control model and actuation system. The stability control can achived brake TCS if the control module capable of such.
No, an open diff always splits torque 50 50. Locked diff can go to 100 on a wheel. TCS is a generic term meaning Traction Control System. Each manufacturer has their own definition of what it includes. Brake TCS is definitely not the same as ESC, as ESC is an umbrella term which incorporates TCS, if TCS is defined as engine and brake traction control.
@@L2SFBC : I am confused. Open diff, left wheel has no grip and spin like crazy while right wheel - which may have some grip - don't spin at all. Vehicule stuck. How is that 50/50? Is it a terminology gotcha? Thanks.
These are all very valid points with one exception: The ute had pure road tires on it. So how it would behave with proper Terrain tires is an unknown. At work I drove extensively in very rough Terrains of all kinds with Rangers/Hiluxes/D-Maxes etc. I have had a couple delivered from work that still had their "normal" tires on them and all then failed to deal with conditions as seen here.
No, that's not right. The Shark gets cross-axled, diagonal wheels in the air/little grip. At that point you could have muddies aired down to 10psi and it'd still spin wheels, albeit a bit less. You see with my Ranger that has good all-terrains on it that it also spins when cross-axled. The problem here is not grip of the tyres, it is distributing torque to the wheels that need it. Yes, good tyres make a difference offroad, but it's not what is being tested here. In the second cross-axle situation when the rear left is in the ditch that's where tyres would make more of a difference, but again it's still not the root cause.
Brake traction control really just seems like a lazy and cheap way to have limited slip differentials. However, if these two systems work combined, it could be very effective.
BTC is better than an LSD in some ways as it can be more effective and there is no negative effect when it's not working. A really good combination is a torque-biasing cross-axle diff plus BTC. For track cars, I like Torsens, Quaifes or similar, open diffs...not so much.
@@L2SFBCan LSD can transfer more torque to the dri ing wheel. With brake traction control the diff is acting as a gearbox so you get double the wheel speed with half the torque to the drive wheel. I think a better solution would be a diff with a clutch that can be engaged.
Even as a pre-prod vehicle - considering they have completely separate control of front and rear axles, that calibration is terrible. Looks like they'll do a Tesla and releasing in effectively beta stage, and let customers iron out the bugs...
No reason the wheel spin can't be addressed with a software update
Considering they say they have been testing here for some time, it obviously has not been off road - thats disappointing. Heres hoping they tweak via software updates, wouldn't take much.
Why the complexity for the 4x4 modes? Isn't as simple as send power to the wheels that are turning at a speed closest to the average speed of the vehicle? I appreciate determining the instantaneous speed of the vehicle and supplying the required torque to each wheel is complex but the choices presented to the driver are over the top or marketing hype?
There was a time when Adaptive Terrain Systems were great, but now electronics are so adaptable I query the need for them. The Grenadier does just fine without for example, albeit its BTC is poor, but that's not a adaptive terrain problem.
Interesting analysis. I have the new gen Outlander PHEV, which has a similar drive-train set-up. However, it DEFINITELY has a rear-wheel power bias, especially on acceleration, and a more mature AWD system. It lacks the off-road staples like clearance, protection, tyres etc - but for a soft-roader it's surprisingly capable due to all that low speed torque available and smooth power delivery, especially on sandy tracks and the like common around WA when camping etc. I think BYD has used the same drive-train from their Seal 6 (which is pretty much an Outlander PHEV copy in principle) so I'm interested to see how they have adapted it and whether the absence of a geared low-range will be missed or not.
I have great respect for Mitsubishi's powertrains in their 4x4s and my tests of Evos. BYD doesn't seem to have that pedigree. I drove a Sealion AWD and found it to be feel front-drive biased too.
I'm going to look at whether EVs need low range...is the "oh but it develops max torque off idle so no need for low range" mantra actually true? A few calculations make for interesting conclusions...
You sure the byd system is a copy of Misubishi one considering the BYD system is far more efficent, powerful and sophisticated. And the byd pHEv solution was date back in 2008 and the AWD solution was from 2016. Around the time first geen out lander come about.
The BYD DM systems are not a copy of Mitsubishi, but they have similar principles. At least they are not very old fashioned PHEV tech, like the Ranger PHEV will be.
@@vasil7410 Don't have to get defensive of BYD people. I'm merely pointing out the Outlander has been developed in wider markets for longer and that the hybrid drive-trains are more comparable than most, hence my interest. It's not a competition 🙂
@@L2SFBC I look forward to it.
BYD doesn't have good traction control behaviour. I have an Atto3 and when a wheel slips it cuts the power and takes too long to increase the power. Other EVs I have tried (Tesla, Volvo, MG4) are so smooth on the traction control you don't feel it.
Can that be fix with software updates
I don’t think so, as all BYD “off-road” SUVs in China are equipped with physical front/rear locks, a simulated center diff lock and a physical low-gear at the rear axle only.
also review other Chinese 4x4s
This vehicle has the articulation of a frying pan. Literally no up travel on either axle in the videos when crossing the ditch at a diagonal. Let's just hope the traction control system is still in the "pre-production" phase and will be improved before production starts.
It's not great, but workable enough. The suspension tune needs work, that's coming in the next video. It's either not locally tuned, or not tuned well.
You need quad motors to do off road well without locking axles and lockable centre. Braked is meh.
Quad motors represent even more of a challenge for software programmers as they now have to figure out left/right wheels speeds and torque distribution, not just front/rear. The potential is good, but only if the programming is up to the mark. If not, the result is a vehicle inferior to a conventional drivetrain and potentially even dangerours. See my video on IWD for more.
@@L2SFBC As a person with 34 years software engineering experience across all sorts of industries including automotive, I strongly disagree. It is the most trivial exercise to emulate a triple locked diff setup. You're matching RPM at all corners limited to torque of highest traction wheel by the throttle input. Child's play. Clearly this drive mode would need to be special and isn't suitable for on road conditions unless the goal is 4 wheel helis.
I agree with simple triple-locked, but I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the challenge of effective IWD across many different terrains. There it is much more of a challenge than simply monitoring four wheel speeds and increasing/decreasing torque when a threshold is exceeded. IWD should be able to do better than a triple-locked system, for example torque-bias front or rear as required, and left or right in response to driver input and also conditions varying from high to low speed, low and high mu, load on wheels and more. I think that's a complex task, you don't?
@@L2SFBC yes, but not off road, a bit of scrub is okay off road, be it sand, mud, whatever. The beauty of triple lock is that the torque moves around automatically and the low grip wheels are maximised by keeping the slip angle low or at driver request at least consistent. Triple locked will excell in sand, mud, rock climbing equally. The only reason you might NOT engage them all aside from convenience is potential for breakage. When that is no longer a concern why not run that mode constantly. Keep in mind that the software can do your ackerman speed differences for you automatically as it knows where the steering wheel is, so even that's not at all a concern. On pavement there would be no scrub, but you could for eg spin all 4 wildly and lose control, so not ideal for your average idiot.
No triple locked is not the answer in all offroad conditons. For example in sand it will generate additional drag needlessly, you'd want the torque/wheel speed of each wheel to exactly match the arc, and also pivot the car via torque vectoring. Drive around triple-locked and you'll end up stuck....unless I've misunderstood you? You mean starting triple-locked as a base, and then change as required according to steering angle etc? That would make sense, but I feel some field testing would be needed, and you'd want to torque-steer the car too. Also, I don't want a situation where a rear-locked car loses traction on the back axle and pivots, I want the front to pull through like a locked front, open rear. Then we come to hills....
ROFL at the 1 tyre fire, so hilarious.
Didn't they want all you journalists to drive it on the road or something? Or maybe that bit is just still embargoed
We had a short on-road section, maybe 10km all up. Time was limited, as is always the case. Often some journos don't even use all the little time they have available.
@@L2SFBC oh right! Interesting! Thanks for filling me in... I just wondered why all the channels I've seen review it didn't seem to have any on road footage... At least not that I've seen yet... So now I understand
We had no chance to take any on road footage and there was none supplied.
@@L2SFBC ahh right! Okey doke. Cheers
The battery os too small
Very dissapointing off road, I expected much better.
Remember this is a pre-prod vehicle, and there can be software updates...so let's see what the production models are like.
@@L2SFBC Software for true 4x4ing?
@@brunoterlingen2203 not yet but one day it will be normal. Just like cars used to be inferior to horses
It's hard to please ex Britishers. They moved their bodies to Aboriginal lands but their hearts and minds are Anglo American
2.7 Tonne? With poor engineering, no wonder it is not even up to 1994 standard - leave well alone I would say.