EEVblog 1501 - Rigol HDO4000 Low Noise 12bit Oscilloscope Unboxing & First Impression
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2022
- Rigol's new HDO4000 Series ultra low noise 12bit oscilloscope with Centaur chipset.
Unboxing, first impression, and noise measurements.
AC RMS noise measurement: • EEVblog #1223 - Oscill...
Can your oscilloscope Zoom Out?: • EEVblog #1311 - Can Yo...
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5:50 I totally missed that bias is actually different to position offset. You can actually DC bias the input to any level required which is pretty cool.
Does it then actually output that bias voltage on the BNC? Or is it just in one of the intermediate steps - in which case I’m not sure what use it would be compared to software vertical positioning? Actual bias output would be fun to play around with to look at the effects of DC bias on capacitors and stuff like that!
looks kind a low 22:38 .. what number of greyscale level does it have?? (for that analog feel)
This footage here are with a 256 greyscale levels, or maybe more - haven't count them :P (100k wfms/s)
th-cam.com/video/Iy2NvuZUYXk/w-d-xo.html
What does bias mean in context and how is it different from position offset? Don't most scopes buffer and then bias the input when you turn the vertical knob?
@@mlenstra Uh? Output a voltage on the input? Why would it?
Just brought the 1000 series even though shows 50ohm on screen and on front panel there is no way to select it
That average is not stopping. Its a sliding window of 1000 samples. Those stats are configerable and very nice.
We got a new HDO4000 late Dec-22. We work with high-voltage power supplies and use a x100 probe to check the ripple voltages around 700-800V. Using our scope, we found that over 100VDC input (while AC coupled) the scope generates some proportional DC offset on the display. At 800V, the offset is so high that is impossible to check the ripple voltages around 200 mVpp using the AC coupling mode. It is currently with Rigol in the US to try and figure out the issue. I have a strange feeling that it may be some design issue, and that it is present on all the 4000 series scopes. The same HV probe works perfectly with our other scopes in the lab (Agilent, Lecroy etc.). Maybe Dave can perform some testing on his side?
Hey, I wanted to thank you for sharing that bit of information. I look at all of these comments when considering a new product and that is very helpful, perhaps they will do a firmware update from their site. best wishes
It still blows my mind that Keysight are still the only ones who have figured out how to fully decouple the UI from the underlying data acquisition and math computations to keep responsiveness up. It just seems so janky that everything stops updating, and the whole UI slows down to what seems to be ~8 FPS when you move a waveform around. Especially considering a 10 year old Agilent/Keysight 3000 series keeps updating, and the UI remains silky smooth when moving things around.
We live in an era where even cheap bargain phones have 8 core processors. There's no excuse for slow janky UIs, especially when Keysight figured this out over a decade ago.
Agreed, it's likely due to poorly funded software development efforts. It's a huge opportunity, improvements for instrument UI.
@@aajpeter patents maybe?
@@taliakuznetsova7092
Architecture, maybe limitations in the Android OS screen driver maybe?
I think it's just down to price: Keysight developed their own ASIC, which is probably hugely complex to integrate and write software around. How many people are _not_ going to buy this scope because the waveform doesn't update while moving the display? Probably not many, so it's advantageous for them to save the money and make it a little cheaper, possibly even reaching a larger audience because of it.
But I fully agree, doing this in software is just not a nice experience. The software situation seems to be abysmal (as always) anyway, just see how the scaling is broken (around 18:30)...
Decoupling the UI from the underlying processing is one of the fundamental principles of web development. It's super easy if done before everything gets tangled up.
In all the excitement the scope did not get taken apart.
Excited for the teardown, thanks Dave!
Rigol need to start sending me stuff to review… I’ve never reviewed a Rigol device, done plenty of Siglent stuff… cough cough 😉🤓
Great video, greetings from Dominican Republic an electronics enthusiast!!!
12 bits ... hmmm. Sounds nice. The wavy dots logo thingy next to the scope probe inputs looks kinda janky. If the base scope can be hacked to 800Mhz then this is definitely a winner ...
Hacking to 800MHz would be pretty killer.
Sure, just pour through 100 pages of blathering on the eevblog, how much is your time worth?
Hey! That’s the fun part.
@Electromushi I already said that. Maybe update the First Post with the Complete Solution.
This is a beautiful scope. I don't need anything more than 50MHz bandwidth for what I do but I need low noise, 12 bits and more channels. 8 channels would be nice. 16 would be perfect.
To be fair, there is a lot of useful applications for a 12 bit scope.
But it would be nice if its DC gain accuracy were better than 2%. At least it is better than the DS1054z with its 4%.
Though, the R&S RTB2004 is down at 1.5%
Not that DC gain accuracy is the most critical spec for oscilloscopes. They don't replace multimeters by a long shot.
But sometimes measuring voltages accurately is important, and it would be nice to see a scope with a DC gain accuracy better than 1%. Even if it hurts bandwidth.
Great unboxing and early review. I actually really like the touch screen UI for this scope. The information on screen is super helpful. If you activate Ultra-Instinct, you could bypass the RTFM on the ultra-acquire...
I think the statistics top at 1000 count, because it is doing windowed statistics. That is it is showing avg, min, max, dev for the last 1000 measurements. This is actually pretty advanced feature, as most osciloscopes only show avg, min, max, dev since the stat reset. Ability to do windowed statistics actually require extra memory to do so. I am sure if you click on the measurements settings, you can change it down or up, or enable infinite count. In data sheet it says even "Statistical times settable". There is probably an upper limit (but I hope they have infinity, as that requires no extra memory), but probably common options like 100, 1000, 10k, 100k are available, as that can all be handled easily in few megabytes of memory in the SoC. It is not super complex feature, but even mid range scopes from R&H or Keysight, do not have that. Nice.
It's always great to see them improving their hardware and software, but I don't think this scope is really worth it unless you have a really niche application.
Awesome, Thanks for the video looking forward to seeing how it compares to the Siglent hd series
Don't have one unfortunately.
@@EEVblog I've just dropped you an email mate. (to your fan box maybe we can work something out)
It stops as 1000 because it wants to use only 1000 last samples for averaging.
As to the touch screen being difficult to work with, do you know whether the scope accepts HID devices on its USB sockets, e.g. if you could use a mouse?
It could could also become potentially handy if you grab the HDMI output for some video and it displays a nice pointer on the screen.
It's based on Android so I would assume that a mouse and KB should work.
Siglent SDS2000X+ can use а mouse
Clearly some software bugs to work out in software but i am rather impressed and surprised by how well they implemented everything
Bandwidth limit would reduce noise, just the thermal noise at 20mhz bandwidth corresponds to 4 microvolt rms noise absolute minimum and scales as the square root of bandwidth.
17 microvolt is actually fairly close to the absolute limit
The increase in sample rate corresponds to roughly an additional bit (ENOB) so comparing to the R&S is should be about 3 bits (8x) higher resolution measurement. The same goes to the 20mhz bw limit when increasing mV/div. The massive oversampling gives an insane boost to the dynamic range. I’d like to know the ADC they are using; I would be curious to build a radio with it if it’s a COTS part. Also wish you would have fed it some signals closer to its bw limit or at least above 20mhz… If you show it again, please consider roughing it up a bit more.
Its a custom chipset.
I'd love the DHO 1000 series to have digital inputs as well, like the 4000. I often use my cheap logic analyzer on the computer, but seeing that data alongside analog scope graphs would be really helpful for debugging some interference stuff in some of my projects.
That is an absolutely beautiful scope. Stunning looking and the display, wow. Very very very nicely done.
nahh, its quite far from an "absolutely beatiful scope that is stunningly looking"
the UI interface looks okay, but the scope design in late 2022 for an unit that cost thousands of dollars, leaves a lot to be desired.
and whats up with that dotted part at the bottom that almost looks like a sticker that is partly coming of, though its hopefully just a slide in the plastic but referring to this, as a "stunning and absolutely beautiful scope "26:07 is a stretch.
I hope they'll add an option to turn off sin(x)/x interpolation, it can be useful to see the individual samples.
I think that it is realistic when it shows ground is not changing because it measures voltage in reference to that ground.
11:30/12:04 - Is there some setting comparable to the memory depth (9:33), and it's just set to 1k? Like, I presume it's currently using a 1000-element ring buffer that it averages from, and so it shows the count of points until full, and then (identically, after this point) the capacity of the ring buffer... but perhaps that capacity is changeable? Either way, I wonder how many samples (from the actual memory depth) go into each "count" on the stats. 🤔
id love to see a vid on the best cheap oscilloscopes.
Look no further: Siglent SDS1104X-E hack it to 200 MHz
Unlikely to see that on EEVblog. The 'scope and multimeter snobbery is much too high here.
Classic RIGOL, affordable hardware and buggy software.
Nice, and two phone charging ports at the front panel😀
Analog Discovery 2 is a good bargain. Software is always improving. This is out of my price range for sure lol 😂
The software for that is very nice.
Yeah... Just ordered one of those to do some basic MSO work. Looking forward to it coming next week.
3:05 Oh you folks down under... With your weird angled plugs. Schuko plugs should rule the world!
10:45 Why is there a discrepancy between VRMS and ACRMS? For a frequency of f=7.1428MHz, a time period of t=1/f=140ns a Vpp = 185.02μV, giving Vp=92.51μV; VRMS =√2/2Vp=65.41μV (not 77.72μV as displayed) and discretising for n=100 (and i=1 to n) to get Vi = V(f,ti)=Vpsin(2πfti) then using the statistical formulae ACRMS gives a value of ACRMS=65.41μV agreeing perfectly with the simple hand calc; am I missing something here?
Hi, can you demonstrate the fft on the scope? it should be quite useful white 12 bits
Recommend a budget oscilloscope for automotive diagnostics of a tablet type, which fully corresponds to its characteristics.
The declared 12 bit (or 16 bit in "High Resolution mode") is an illusion. Look at (always) the ENOB spec. ENOB is > 8 bit for HDO4000...so it's 8 bit!!! Never trust label attached by marketing people!!!!
Just stop it, they would never lie to us consumers and mainly not CN tech companies.
they are honest like a nun
pretty cool
The hardware not keeping up with the software reading below 1mv vertical is a really poor over-sight. I'll keep my Tek2465.
SOLD!
Hopefully you can review the hdo1202 which , on paper looks like good bang for the buck
11:30 its look like "moving average (MA)". Calculating values from last 1000 counts
Is it using an 8-bit ADC and just averaging multiple samples for the lowest level range? That would explain the forced 20MHz bandwidth.
we need a 500MHz scope for our lab and we have a $5,000 budget (plus budget for some current probes)
should we buy the Rigol DHO4804, or an older Tektronix scope (e.g. DPO4054, DPO7054, TDS3054C) ??
Did you know that the cheapest Hantek usb scope has 8 channels and 12 bit resolution?
I think it's the model 1008.
It's slow speed, but most of the time slow speed works just fine for me...
I have many digital scopes capable of much higher speeds that only have 8 or 10 bit resolutions; while this scope hooked up to an old small screen laptop, (on battery power for no ground loops), running Win XP or Win 7 is all I need,
With this 'beater' scope I can make low speed high resolution measurements in places where I would not want to use anything more expensive. Those scopes had been selling for about $70, (last time I looked), with a probe or two, and in some cases it even came with a travel bag.
Mine are older and I would always wait for a sale, so I never paid more than $50 for any of mine..
I bought three of them, figuring that I would be blowing them up working on some really high voltage tube audio amplifiers, and wanted some spares handy. So far I have not wiped out any, but I did by a high voltage USB isolator guaranteed for up to 2500 VDC.
I have been pretty sick and it's been a long time since I last used one, but I think it's probe scale multiplier went up to 100X or maybe even 1000X......
They probably cost more today due to inflation and tariffs on things from China, but are still worth taking a look at...
Do you know of any way to add on programs/ plugins to the Hantek 1008?
I’ve just brought the 1000 series great scope but just found you cannot select 50ohm even though written on the front and shows on screen
What? Only two probes? Not enough buttons, there is lots of empty space on the side. Also since even scope screens just keep getting bigger, can we also have a proper one? I don't mean 8k displays from current year, I mean 1080p displays from previous decade.
it would be nice to have the low noise and bit depth for audio work. But the bandwidth is wasted on me.
I'll wait for the chipset to trickle down to the lower tier product range in a few years.
Why would you want statistics to be calculated over more than 1000 samples? It not that no more samples are collected. After reaching 1000 samples, oldest are discarded and calculations are done over most recent 1000 ones.
how to do a Bode Plot analysis for power supplies and audio crossovers with this scope ? Siglent integrates wafeformgenerator, does Rigol do the same ? What generator do i need with it ?
Would be very interested in a 1000 series.... I have a 1052D, as recommended by EEVBlog, ... would love to go 4CH if Rigol can keep the price down
3:45 Those probes look identical to the pair you get with the cheap-ass Rigol DS1052/1102
It would be awesome if you could plug a mouse into it and use a pointer to click around. I hate reaching over my work to access the control panel. Someone needs to do this lol
Where is your tapping the probe connectors test???
A good Analog Tektronix, the signal could be comparable to 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit? What "resolution"?
Damn good!
call me old school, but i'd prefer old fashoned button rather than a touch screen. but it does look a lovely scope
in todays modern digital scopes with all these features and variables and labelling and all that jazz..
a touch interface is definitely a welcome feature.
but I do like my buttons on a scope, so a mix is prefered..
looks very raw and glitchy to me. hope they can fix it in the next firmware updates.
7:55 Well, if you disable the touch screen. Of course, it doesn't do anything... :D
22:15 At 1mv/division it seems to actually do the 18µV noise floor?
Дэйва нужно срочно взять тестировщикам в Райгол, иначе они так и будут выпускать модели с програмными ошибками
Nice knife
Why didnt they fix the fan issue? This was so annoying in the old scopes already. Also would be good if you could set the colors of the waveforms (should be easy to add for them, since it's Android based), channel 3 and 4 are not contrasting enough on the DS1000Z.
The channels should use the resistor color code. 4 channels brown, red, orange, yellow....
Sweet.
Sorry I'm noob with oscilloscopes. Why has my little 1115 ADC 16 bit but oscilloscopes seem stuck at 8-12 bit?
The sin(x)/x interpolation and waveform averaging looks very suspicious. Are they using filters and software trickery to make the scope look better than what it really is ?
I checked user manual for the HDO4000 series, and it's opposite, sin(x)/x is not an option in the HDO4000 family. These scopes offer only VECTOR display, the same as it's in the MSO5000.
sin(x)/x interpolation is actually the mathematically correct way to reproduce what was present on the input, assuming an input anti-aliasing filter that is a near-brickwall filter (and you can of course compensate for difference in the input filtering). All higher end scopes use sin(x)/x interpolation at their smallest timebases. Whether you can turn on/off "dot" mode is probably a software choice.
In this case, it looks like they might be using a fairly low-quality approximation of sin(x)/x interpolation which is why it doesn't look like what you might expect.
The averaging is likely a moving average filter, and you would only turn it on if you have a highly periodic signal, and you want to get an accurate measurement of the underlying signal. But either way, it looks pretty normal to me.
I watched the video few more times, and I agree in the vertical zoom it's sin(x)/x interpolation, but the user guide say this scope has vector display. No single word about sin(x)/x... :)
Following in the Tek model 2 footsteps? Looks real damn nice on the outside, I like the design right away.
Can this tool measure (Visualize) duty cycle less than eg 1% or more than eg 99% ?
It needs bars on the front, sticking out from the sides (like a roll cage in a car) for when this gets tipped over onto its face. if there are buttons or knobs that stick out the designers need to protect them! I have a few old scopes and they *all* have this.
are you gonna do a tear down?
I have an old Philips scope that doesn't do this
Try the 50 Ohm input impedance. 1 MOhm generates pretty high Johnson noise. A termination at both ends will gain sqrt(2) S/N. At 23:50, is this an average of several sweeps? How else can you get analog noise below the digital resolution of the ADC?
Terminating the scope input into 50 ohms removes any Johnson noise from the 1 meg input impedance.
@@braver1234 No. It merely develops noise across 50 Ohms instead of 1 MOhm. Sampling the middle of a transmission line places 50 Ohm in parallel with 50 Ohm so that noise develops across 25 Ohm instead. I predict that the noise was specified by terminating the BNC with 50 Ohm and by selecting the 50 Ohm input impedance. This is equivalent to connecting a BNC T to the input and terminating two coax cables connected to the T ends while using the 1 MOhm input impedance.
Yep, that would be averaged over multiple acquisitions. As long as the noise is uncorrelated, you can end up with a substantial noise reduction. You can read more here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_averaging
@@funtechu No. Dave is right about the noise specified for a single pass. Of course averaging allows you to trade sqrt(time) for lower noise, but that is aside from his point.
@@byronwatkins2565 Sorry, I misread the timestamp. I was talking about around 16:30 where he turns on averaging and is able to get below the 18uVRMV spec.
35 seconds from power to operating? Is there some self test or something you can switch off? They should just start and let you press a test button. I'm sure an oscilloscope should just start right up
What causes the microphonics?
Is it the ceramic caps on the PCB?
Good question. I was surprised by that and have the same question. Could vibration in the bench cause additional noise or would using it in a car make it unusable?
I mean who would have thought Rigol would come out with such good hardware at their prices. Now if only they would update their spectrum analyzers, the DSA815 is getting a little old in the tooth.
Long in the tooth
3:15 Wait, oscilloscope probes have detachable hooks hiding a sharp tip underneath? That's new.
Bet, you never read the instruction/manuals.
did scopes get more expensive recently or what. just looked up some of the prices and man they are insane, I got a used RIGOL low end model for like 150 over a year ago and its not great, super noisy and not many features at all. but its okay for rough work. also would be nice to have one with a digital output/analog function generator/logic analyzer so you can have side by side analysis of input and output. do these exist?. this scope has a nice practical build the big screen is nice
Err, nope, the opposite, scopes have gotten cheaper.
@@EEVblog Siglent will have to rethink their pricing on their 12 bit scopes due to this Rigol introduction.
@@NeverTalkToCops1 Maybe. Or they can just throw in the logic analyser and function gen options.
Yes, scopes have gotten more expensive. At least Keysight. In 2014 I purchased an MSO-X 2014A at Farnell for €2150. This week, Keysight quoted me a repair of this scope (mainboard replacement) for €3360! A new one at Farnell is now €4730!
Is it just me or does that hexagon pattern on the front remind anyone of the old windows logo?
Mixed signal scope? What is that?
8 months later and still no firmware update to fix all the bugs. Looks like I was right in avoiding anything Rigol. Going with the Siglent instead...
Does anyone with that oscilloscope could test the SCPI waveform speed over Ethernet?
On Rigol MSO5K it was so slow less than 1 waveform/s even with 10KSamples and 1 chan...
Jesus... Now that's a knife!
Touch screen is optional for me. I have RTB2000 and it requires minimal interaction with the screen and even so, that is on the limit for me. Touch screen is over-complication when test wires are all over the place I am holding a probe in one hand.
Nice scope though. I am not sure if 12bit gives advantage when testing, but low noise on 1mV/div certainly does and this category I would say Rigol is on pair with RTB2000.
Crikey! Now, that's a knife! 😂
Note, how the actual display is smaller than the frame.
"What wankery is going on here"
Quite a way with words lol
How many fonts does it have?
Hi Dave, I appreciate all your videos, great content for everyone.
In EVblog 1501 Rigol HDO4000 you reviewed the oscilloscope, I was thinking to buy this product. In the video you demonstrated the microphonic effect of the BNC input circuit.
I have proven technology to remove this problem. With your connections and influence, how would you suggest moving forward with presenting my technology?
Thanks,
Val
Rigol should provide the source code for this. If the OS is on an SD card internally, why not let open source devs improve it to the point where it stomps any Siglent/Keysight scope that's double the price?
Can touch function be disabled? With my eyesight I might accidentally touch the screen with my nose. Also I like that those grid marks on side and bottom. And all black makes it easier for me to read the button and knob markings. If I only could afford it...
EDIT: Literally 3 seconds after writing that comment I noticed "Touch Lock" button on the panel...
Install Rigol Plus Pack and that logo will take you to minesweeper and solitaire
Really nice scope! did anyone hacked it? :P :P :P
expanding hexagons unite
👍
I see what you mean about fonts.
a scope is use to test and design electrical or electronic devices,... who test the scope?
Where is the teardown ? This channel has changed a lot from the early video ! "Don't turn it on, take it appart" is gone, miss it ^^
+100500
No digital inputs/logic analyzer ?
Nope. No function gen either. They are going back to basics.
Those are nice to have in a mixed signal scope for embedded work. The target audience here seems focused on folks looking for analog performance above all else.
Rigol HDO1204 4channel 12 Bit 200 MHz 2 GSa/s 50 Mpts 50 Kwfms/s $1,699
Early Xmas?
Has this scope bode plot option?
Update: I checked the user manual, and the HDO4000 doesn't offer bode plot.
In my case it's "no go" .
Sometimes we don't have time
Nice microwave.
400VA?!?!! YIKES!