Yes I agree, much as I like Timothy Spall he doesn't really follow on from Bernard Hill. It'd would have been interesting to have seen Rylance's Cromwell throttling Hill's Duke of Norfolk.
Agreed. Only thing wrong with this series. Badly miscast sadly, more like a comic character, at times like the Disney mouse he once played. Fine actor, just not right for this part. There must have been other actors available far more 'like' Bernard Hill
I'm almost positive that this is Henry speaking through Gardiner, trying to feel out Cromwell, especially with those persistent rumors that Thomas wants to marry Mary. Henry's already replaced him, the fall's already begun, and all of this is just them gathering evidence.
It's ironic really. Cromwell helped usher an age of unrestrained monarch. By doing so he made himself rich and powerful, but also sow seeds of his own demise.
He was dealing with an unstable monarch. Cromwell also laid the foundation for the administrative state run by competent people he trained, not by the aristocracy who thought they had a birthright to run the kingdom. That’s what eventually got him killed. Cromwell wouldn’t stay in his lane.
@@kimhaas7586 Cromwell was an opportunistic, amoral, power-hungry office-seeker who would stop at nothing to secure position and status for himself, including engineering people's deaths based on what he knew to be false evidence.
Whilst his Great Grandson attempted to do the very opposite and would've met his demise at the end of the Commonwealth had he not died sooner. Nonetheless, King Henry had Thomas executed whilst Oliver greatly advocated for the execution of King Charles
@@kimhaas7586 Sure he did. The bureaucratic apparatus served the monarch first. Not the state, not the people. As far as balance of power was concerned it was a step back. What options for redress and counterweights existed when Henry became king, were destroyed. Every taboo was broken. I understand the need for romantic notion of "man pushing society forward". It is a nice thought. But ultimately, Cromwell was not that man.
@@letolethe3344 No man at that table is a "good man". Cromwell is perhaps the main one I have any sympathy for, but that's likely just due to Mark Rylance's incredible portrayal.
@@steveschmidt5156 but I imagine the real one might have likewise appeared cool and measured, especially considering his low birth and the other guys' snobbery and resentment that he climbed so high. In a hostile environment it would be wise not to show one's enemies what buttons to push.
Idk why Cromwell didn’t call out Gardiner for the fact the French king made a pact with Spain while (or right after) Gardiner was in Paris. Surely that’s incompetence or treason from Gardiner right there
Replacing the Sherlock guy with the man who played the Duke of Winsor was a very good choice, an insidious, well spoken man you can see using his resentment to keep in favour. His vendetta comes from wanting to hide his incompetence, much like Norfolk
Gattiss can't act. He writes well and his documentaries are good but he can't act. He plays like he's a teenager in a school production. He should stick to what he's good at Alex Jennings has far more presence and smooth skill.
@@Lorrdd Yes exactly. Choose your historian. Although not a historian I think Hilary Mantel tells it pretty much as it was. The heretic burning "Saint" Thomas More in particular. The Man for all Seasons!!!
"Sovereign Immunity" is one of the many ancient traditions that We The People inherited from our British cousins, that We will soon enough, very possibly learn to rue. -C
@@margo3367 He said just give me some more time to see the project through (Protestantism). He ignored numerous warnings from both friends and enemies and mistimed his exit, as so many powerful men do.
He knew it was coming. He warned his servants to prepare for it by making plans for other jobs, gave them stuff to sell etc. Warned his sons they'd have to disown him etc He apparently explored if there was places abroad he could buy but he stayed too long.
Cruel 4 Henry to sett up Cromwell with illusions of Earldom. Shows Henry's true sadistic capacities all along. Touching that Olly Cromwell eventually attained that dreamed of freedoms land
I feel its more subtle in the book , but Cromwells transformation from James bond in a codpiece to a bumbling distracted space cadet simp is too abrupt , it doesnt really work in the show
I noticed this too, although I felt in the books it abruptly happened after Anne’s execution. It’s like Mantel didn’t know how to ease into Cromwell’s undoing, so he just suddenly became incautious, then outright incompetent. Straughan repeats likewise, but with Dorothy’s rejection. There’s no steady lead up to the break; the break suddenly just happens, and instead of Cromwell recovering as he has done previously he just makes it worse and worse. Mirror and the Light was weaker than the first two books, so I’m not surprised that this season, although still good, is also weaker than the first.
Incredible that Cromwell was really the only man in court who rose from a poorer background by the merits of his mind. Reminds me a bit of 'once Labour deputy minister 'John Prescott!' A growly man but probably with humour or heart. Maybe Cromwell didn't want Gardiner to be same dog suffered as himself?
Henry VIII is the closest England has ever come to an absolute ruler, a true tyrant without any restraint on his power and Cromwell helped to make him that way and paid the ultimate price for his success. A good series though, well worth watching.
It was seen as being grasping to be effective in those days. Especially by the lower ranking nobles with little wealth who could easily be replaced by common educated men.
Does anybody feel that Oliver Cromwell replaced royal power with government, as a legacy to remember his great grandfather? And the respect of poorer men to rise to greater opportunity through mind?
Thomas was Oliver's great great uncle. He was descended from Thomas's sister Katherine Williams. Katherine's son Richard changed his name from Williams to Cromwell. Oliver was his grandson.
@jlr108 thank you. Fascinating. This connection relates some of the most crucial parts of our GB constitutional history. & the need 4 equal democratic expression.
@jlr108 Oliver Cromwell spared one of my ancestors lives because she was brave. There was definitely some aspects of a deeper integrity to the Cromwell family. Another storey to be spoken. The man had mercy.
The other actor replacements are fine but much as I love him, Timothy Spall is completely miscast here, over acting, over expression, more like the cartoon mouse he once played. I can't take him seriously and it's spoiling my beloved Mantel & cast 🤨😠
Typical BBC woke production all of which is ruined again by the ridiculous inaccurate casting of black faces during English tudor Court of the 1500s period in English history which is not only ridiculous but then becomes a fantasy tick box production.
@@mrdemocracy7106 Henry VIII had a black musician named John Blanke. There were black people in England then and there was at least one (that we have documented evidence of) in the king's court.
@@mrdemocracy7106 You can read Miranda Kaufmann's Black Tudors: The Untold Stories about the lives of ten different black people living in Tudor England, and maybe it will give you some more accurate historical perspective.
TRÁI ĐẤT tự nhiên sinh ra và TRÁI ĐẤT cũng sẽ tự nhiên mất đi. Con người không biết tranh thủ vui chơi mà lại vẫn đi giết hại lẫn nhau, là vì con người vẫn còn u mê, dù giai đoạn lạc hậu đã trôi qua. NGƯỜI YÊU NGƯỜI SỐNG ĐỂ YÊU NHAU - Tố Hữu. Hãy lắng nghe, hãy thấu hiểu lời bác Tố Hữu và cùng nhau tiêu hủy hết các loại vũ khí gây sát thương cho con người trên trái đất này (from Vietnam).
Nice scene, but I find I am not as enthralled by this series as the first. Some of the novelty of the staging and performances has worn off, some scenes aren't quite working and the random ethnic faces are getting more jarring. The recasting of Norfolk doesn't work either.
Rhesus negative and AB positive...? I think you know what he means..?The days of being cancelled because of wrong choice of words is over or haven't you realised. What's the current favourite : Dual Heritage or somesuch...??
@@forestsunset9617 Just because it's not a "documentary" doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for historical accuracy in as many aspects of the show as they can. Especially when the first season was so highly immersive. It's fine though. When someone makes a show about an important Muslim, Asian, or African historical figure with a bunch of white actors I'm sure you and the rest of the pro "colorblind casting" crowd will be fine with it, right?
@@therevolvingmonk I couldn't less who is cast. It may be based on history but is still a work of fiction and entertainment. If you want 100% accuracy read published papers by academics, and even then there is debate on what actually happened 500 years ago. So take your right wing culture war snowflake nonsense somewhere else.
Mark Rylance looks more like he should be sitting in the snug of The Rovers Return with Ena Sharples . He's morphed into Minnie Caldwell.! Does anyone know what he based his performance of Cromwell upon..???
also, Cromwell was whacked out by Henry because he and Hungerford were ripping him off with money deals. Henry was embarrassed by it and so he just threw off
![[meme] Thomas Cromwell being 100% Done with everyone and everything for 10 minutes | Wolf Hall](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/v34sbs18ar0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[meme] Thomas Cromwell being 100% Done with everyone and everything for 10 minutes | Wolf Hall](/img/tr.png)
I wish they didn’t take so long to make this season. Would have loved to have seen Bernard Hill back as the Duke of Norfolk again. RIP.
Yes I agree, much as I like Timothy Spall he doesn't really follow on from Bernard Hill. It'd would have been interesting to have seen Rylance's Cromwell throttling Hill's Duke of Norfolk.
Yes I can't help always thinking Timothy spall as Barry in auf weidersen pet think Bernard hill version of duke of Norfolk was much scarier
I agree. Bernard Hill had great range and presence and Spall does not. Bernard Hill somehow elevated every role he was was in. Very rare.
Bernard hill duke of Norfolk would have floored Cromwell spall version is not great
Agreed. Only thing wrong with this series. Badly miscast sadly, more like a comic character, at times like the Disney mouse he once played. Fine actor, just not right for this part. There must have been other actors available far more 'like' Bernard Hill
I'm almost positive that this is Henry speaking through Gardiner, trying to feel out Cromwell, especially with those persistent rumors that Thomas wants to marry Mary. Henry's already replaced him, the fall's already begun, and all of this is just them gathering evidence.
That makes sense.
You are absolutely right.
Yes. Recon missions for these hyenas who’ve despised him for so long
It's ironic really. Cromwell helped usher an age of unrestrained monarch. By doing so he made himself rich and powerful, but also sow seeds of his own demise.
He was dealing with an unstable monarch.
Cromwell also laid the foundation for the administrative state run by competent people he trained, not by the aristocracy who thought they had a birthright to run the kingdom.
That’s what eventually got him killed. Cromwell wouldn’t stay in his lane.
@@kimhaas7586 Cromwell was an opportunistic, amoral, power-hungry office-seeker who would stop at nothing to secure position and status for himself, including engineering people's deaths based on what he knew to be false evidence.
Whilst his Great Grandson attempted to do the very opposite and would've met his demise at the end of the Commonwealth had he not died sooner. Nonetheless, King Henry had Thomas executed whilst Oliver greatly advocated for the execution of King Charles
@@kimhaas7586 Sure he did. The bureaucratic apparatus served the monarch first. Not the state, not the people. As far as balance of power was concerned it was a step back. What options for redress and counterweights existed when Henry became king, were destroyed. Every taboo was broken.
I understand the need for romantic notion of "man pushing society forward". It is a nice thought. But ultimately, Cromwell was not that man.
Thomas and Oliver Cromwell weren't related
In any way
Oliver Cromwell is a very interesting figure in his own right
In the entirety of Wolf Hall, Cromwell kept his cool. The ice is cracked all around him. There’s nowhere left to go but down 😢
Tears for a man who sent innocent people to their deaths?
@@letolethe3344 No man at that table is a "good man". Cromwell is perhaps the main one I have any sympathy for, but that's likely just due to Mark Rylance's incredible portrayal.
It's called "acting". Cromwell's constant sang-froid, ultimately renders the entire production unbelievable and unwatchable.
(But good effort).
@@steveschmidt5156 but I imagine the real one might have likewise appeared cool and measured, especially considering his low birth and the other guys' snobbery and resentment that he climbed so high. In a hostile environment it would be wise not to show one's enemies what buttons to push.
@asmrcarousel what you imagine is just that. It has no bearing on how the real cromwell may have acted
Idk why Cromwell didn’t call out Gardiner for the fact the French king made a pact with Spain while (or right after) Gardiner was in Paris. Surely that’s incompetence or treason from Gardiner right there
I was thinking just that!
Real historical events of the Tudors are so much more unnerving than anything in GoT
These dramas dont tell the real truth, it would upset to many people
@@thehum1000 How do you mean?
Replacing the Sherlock guy with the man who played the Duke of Winsor was a very good choice, an insidious, well spoken man you can see using his resentment to keep in favour. His vendetta comes from wanting to hide his incompetence, much like Norfolk
I prefer Mark Gatiss in the role.
Gattiss can't act. He writes well and his documentaries are good but he can't act. He plays like he's a teenager in a school production. He should stick to what he's good at Alex Jennings has far more presence and smooth skill.
@@grassic He is very good onstage. On screen he is better at broader strokes comedy. Just a different style.
@ I love his snide arrogance, which suits this particular role.
@@slicksalmon6948 Jennings plays the arrogant scoundrel very well, especially when basking in a victory and rubbing it in
... and soon they'll call him a traitor as well. 😬
And history continues to debate...
@@Lorrdd Yes exactly. Choose your historian. Although not a historian I think Hilary Mantel tells it pretty much as it was. The heretic burning "Saint" Thomas More in particular. The Man for all Seasons!!!
Even looks like Richie rich turning against Cromwell
Thomas Cromwell is just beating everyone up this season aint he 😂
"Sovereign Immunity" is one of the many ancient traditions that We The People inherited from our British cousins, that We will soon enough, very possibly learn to rue. -C
Also the King's Mercy, or the pardon power of the President.
And which incidentally doesn't exist in Britain any more
Duke of Norfolk really had that coming! 😂
When you hear the voice of an actor who played as a German lackey on another epic series you know you're in a memorable scene. :)
As one English Lord once said, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." This Lord served the English King.
Meh. Power reveals.
Power just reveals who someone really is. The negative connotation we draw from that is because power also attracts the corruptible.
John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton (1834-1902).
High Table at its best !
I wonder why Cromwell didn’t leave England or if he had no idea what was coming.
I missed the first one was Cromwell living in belgiam his daughter wanted him to go back to antwerp
@DavidBroadley-tw7ks Yes...
@@margo3367 He said just give me some more time to see the project through (Protestantism). He ignored numerous warnings from both friends and enemies and mistimed his exit, as so many powerful men do.
He knew it was coming. He warned his servants to prepare for it by making plans for other jobs, gave them stuff to sell etc.
Warned his sons they'd have to disown him etc
He apparently explored if there was places abroad he could buy but he stayed too long.
Could Cromwell have looked more guilty?😂
Cruel 4 Henry to sett up Cromwell with illusions of Earldom. Shows Henry's true sadistic capacities all along. Touching that Olly Cromwell eventually attained that dreamed of freedoms land
I feel its more subtle in the book , but Cromwells transformation from James bond in a codpiece to a bumbling distracted space cadet simp is too abrupt , it doesnt really work in the show
I noticed this too, although I felt in the books it abruptly happened after Anne’s execution. It’s like Mantel didn’t know how to ease into Cromwell’s undoing, so he just suddenly became incautious, then outright incompetent. Straughan repeats likewise, but with Dorothy’s rejection. There’s no steady lead up to the break; the break suddenly just happens, and instead of Cromwell recovering as he has done previously he just makes it worse and worse.
Mirror and the Light was weaker than the first two books, so I’m not surprised that this season, although still good, is also weaker than the first.
Lol I agree with distracted simp, but why space cadet?
Ironically I think Alex Jennings looks more like Cromwell than Mark Rylance!
His portraits are so differing we truly won't know how he looked like
😊😊😊🥰
Thank you
Incredible that Cromwell was really the only man in court who rose from a poorer background by the merits of his mind. Reminds me a bit of 'once Labour deputy minister 'John Prescott!' A growly man but probably with humour or heart. Maybe Cromwell didn't want Gardiner to be same dog suffered as himself?
Where are his descendants now, and where has the Lord put the kings descendants
@YatzarEL-17 In this life, Henry is in the Tower, instead.
@YatzarEL-17 Danny Dyer is a much loved British Actor. Doing really Well for the Cromwell line me thinks
Norfolk? Old man? I’m pretty sure he lived for another 15 off years after this, and that was loads in these days
He was 84 when he died in 1554.
It's a different actor playing Steven Gardner
yes Alex Jennings taking over from Mark Gatiss who would of been at the National Theatre at the time of filming in the motive and the cue.
I like mark gatiss he was good in Sherlock and definitely had a presence in the first series as Steven Gardner
Manages to be just as smarmy and cutting in the role.
Please someone write the Duke of Norfolk’s story
They bullied him right till the end
Well, Cromwell engineered the death of Anne Boleyn for Henry, so, yah, kinda…
Anne and five other men, several Abbots who didn't cooperate with the dissolution, the Pole family, Thomas More..
the list is pretty long
Very long
And he destroyed Katherine off aragon he realy got what was coming to him he wudnt have been missed or mourned a utter scumbag
He is buried beside Anne Boleyn...
@williamhogan4031 poetic justice eh?
Henry VIII is the closest England has ever come to an absolute ruler, a true tyrant without any restraint on his power and Cromwell helped to make him that way and paid the ultimate price for his success.
A good series though, well worth watching.
The last queen and perhaps monarch to have power absolute was Queen Elizabeth, if she said its raining its pissing it down.
@Alan-gh8X If you mean Elizabeth I, even she had to be wary of Parliament, her father had no such worries.
Why do they always feel so comfortable poking him?
It was seen as being grasping to be effective in those days. Especially by the lower ranking nobles with little wealth who could easily be replaced by common educated men.
He's not a true Lord.
He was born a commoner, and worked his way up, but they never let him forget it.
he's a commoner
raised far far above his station
and a thug?
at this stage theres blood in the water. Everyone but Crumb knows hes toast
Hello Admins - why are you deleting people who are confronting the racist commentary but leaving the racism up?
Does anybody feel that Oliver Cromwell replaced royal power with government, as a legacy to remember his great grandfather? And the respect of poorer men to rise to greater opportunity through mind?
Thomas was Oliver's great great uncle. He was descended from Thomas's sister Katherine Williams. Katherine's son Richard changed his name from Williams to Cromwell. Oliver was his grandson.
@jlr108 thank you. Fascinating. This connection relates some of the most crucial parts of our GB constitutional history. & the need 4 equal democratic expression.
@jlr108 Oliver Cromwell spared one of my ancestors lives because she was brave. There was definitely some aspects of a deeper integrity to the Cromwell family. Another storey to be spoken. The man had mercy.
Did Cromwell actually assault Norfolk in real life?
Almost certainly not.
The other actor replacements are fine but much as I love him, Timothy Spall is completely miscast here, over acting, over expression, more like the cartoon mouse he once played. I can't take him seriously and it's spoiling my beloved Mantel & cast 🤨😠
Typical BBC woke production all of which is ruined again by the ridiculous inaccurate casting of black faces during English tudor Court of the 1500s period in English history which is not only ridiculous but then becomes a fantasy tick box production.
Yes i thought the same
@@mrdemocracy7106 Henry VIII had a black musician named John Blanke. There were black people in England then and there was at least one (that we have documented evidence of) in the king's court.
@jlr108 yes the ignorance isn't in the part of the " wokesters".
@@mrdemocracy7106 You can read Miranda Kaufmann's Black Tudors: The Untold Stories about the lives of ten different black people living in Tudor England, and maybe it will give you some more accurate historical perspective.
So jealous of him really sad 😢 downfall
Love how Russian bots are so desperate that they're now spewing nonsense on Tudor TV dramas 🤣
What are you talking about?
TRÁI ĐẤT tự nhiên sinh ra và TRÁI ĐẤT cũng sẽ tự nhiên mất đi. Con người không biết tranh thủ vui chơi mà lại vẫn đi giết hại lẫn nhau, là vì con người vẫn còn u mê, dù giai đoạn lạc hậu đã trôi qua.
NGƯỜI YÊU NGƯỜI SỐNG ĐỂ YÊU NHAU - Tố Hữu. Hãy lắng nghe, hãy thấu hiểu lời bác Tố Hữu và cùng nhau tiêu hủy hết các loại vũ khí gây sát thương cho con người trên trái đất này (from Vietnam).
That buzzing noise is SO annoying and frankly out of place. Weird choice.
Yes, the sound design is way too loud there!
😊
Nice scene, but I find I am not as enthralled by this series as the first. Some of the novelty of the staging and performances has worn off, some scenes aren't quite working and the random ethnic faces are getting more jarring. The recasting of Norfolk doesn't work either.
Excellent acting ,but i still can't believe real people like Jane Seymours sister been played by a mixed blood actor 😢 just mad .
You think every word in this drama was actually spoken verbatim at the time? It's a TV show, not a documentary.
What do you mean by mixed blood?
Rhesus negative and AB positive...?
I think you know what he means..?The days of being cancelled because of wrong choice of words is over or haven't you realised.
What's the current favourite : Dual Heritage
or somesuch...??
@@forestsunset9617 Just because it's not a "documentary" doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for historical accuracy in as many aspects of the show as they can. Especially when the first season was so highly immersive.
It's fine though. When someone makes a show about an important Muslim, Asian, or African historical figure with a bunch of white actors I'm sure you and the rest of the pro "colorblind casting" crowd will be fine with it, right?
@@therevolvingmonk I couldn't less who is cast. It may be based on history but is still a work of fiction and entertainment. If you want 100% accuracy read published papers by academics, and even then there is debate on what actually happened 500 years ago. So take your right wing culture war snowflake nonsense somewhere else.
Mark Rylance looks more like he should be sitting in the snug of The Rovers Return with Ena Sharples . He's morphed into Minnie Caldwell.!
Does anyone know what he based his performance of Cromwell upon..???
Nah, they didn't have Milk Stout in those days
What are you on about?
What’s happening in this scene? Where are all the black people? Most confusing.
This drama so far from the truth its hilarious 😂
Oh it's not just braveheart then that's not true
Why
@@Pdmc-vu5gj all you ever hear is a lot off braveheart is not true a lot off it was true
@DavidBroadley-tw7ks This isn't brave heart....
its anti catholic fiction for guardian readers 🤣🤣
Don't support this false depiction of history
Who cares
the book is not near as eloquent as this
also, Cromwell was whacked out by Henry because he and Hungerford were ripping him off with money deals. Henry was embarrassed by it and so he just threw off
Woke casting, stupid acting...
…bot comment
BBC is dead
@@somecontrol268The casting of black faces during 1500s Tudor England is ridiculous
We got one boys! It’s the anti woke squad pulling up to talk about things no one worth their salt gives half a shit about
These are excellent actors .. Russian bot