I'm almost positive that this is Henry speaking through Gardiner, trying to feel out Cromwell, especially with those persistent rumors that Thomas wants to marry Mary. Henry's already replaced him, the fall's already begun, and all of this is just them gathering evidence.
It's ironic really. Cromwell helped usher an age of unrestrained monarch. By doing so he made himself rich and powerful, but also sow seeds of his own demise.
He was dealing with an unstable monarch. Cromwell also laid the foundation for the administrative state run by competent people he trained, not by the aristocracy who thought they had a birthright to run the kingdom. That’s what eventually got him killed. Cromwell wouldn’t stay in his lane.
@@kimhaas7586 Cromwell was an opportunistic, amoral, power-hungry office-seeker who would stop at nothing to secure position and status for himself, including engineering people's deaths based on what he knew to be false evidence.
Whilst his Great Grandson attempted to do the very opposite and would've met his demise at the end of the Commonwealth had he not died sooner. Nonetheless, King Henry had Thomas executed whilst Oliver greatly advocated for the execution of King Charles
@@kimhaas7586 Sure he did. The bureaucratic apparatus served the monarch first. Not the state, not the people. As far as balance of power was concerned it was a step back. What options for redress and counterweights existed when Henry became king, were destroyed. Every taboo was broken. I understand the need for romantic notion of "man pushing society forward". It is a nice thought. But ultimately, Cromwell was not that man.
Idk why Cromwell didn’t call out Gardiner for the fact the French king made a pact with Spain while (or right after) Gardiner was in Paris. Surely that’s incompetence or treason from Gardiner right there
@@letolethe3344 No man at that table is a "good man". Cromwell is perhaps the main one I have any sympathy for, but that's likely just due to Mark Rylance's incredible portrayal.
Replacing the Sherlock guy with the man who played the Duke of Winsor was a very good choice, an insidious, well spoken man you can see using his resentment to keep in favour. His vendetta comes from wanting to hide his incompetence, much like Norfolk
Gattiss can't act. He writes well and his documentaries are good but he can't act. He plays like he's a teenager in a school production. He should stick to what he's good at Alex Jennings has far more presence and smooth skill.
@@Lorrdd Yes exactly. Choose your historian. Although not a historian I think Hilary Mantel tells it pretty much as it was. The heretic burning "Saint" Thomas More in particular. The Man for all Seasons!!!
Yes I agree, much as I like Timothy Spall he doesn't really follow on from Bernard Hill. It'd would have been interesting to have seen Rylance's Cromwell throttling Hill's Duke of Norfolk.
I feel its more subtle in the book , but Cromwells transformation from James bond in a codpiece to a bumbling distracted space cadet simp is too abrupt , it doesnt really work in the show
I noticed this too, although I felt in the books it abruptly happened after Anne’s execution. It’s like Mantel didn’t know how to ease into Cromwell’s undoing, so he just suddenly became incautious, then outright incompetent. Straughan repeats likewise, but with Dorothy’s rejection. There’s no steady lead up to the break; the break suddenly just happens, and instead of Cromwell recovering as he has done previously he just makes it worse and worse. Mirror and the Light was weaker than the first two books, so I’m not surprised that this season, although still good, is also weaker than the first.
It was seen as being grasping to be effective in those days. Especially by the lower ranking nobles with little wealth who could easily be replaced by common educated men.
Previously through our the middle-ages and early Tudor period the only figures to reach the ranks of nobility in terms of power and influence were churchmen - and the ecclesiastical office is what protected them (most of the time). Henry’s reign ushered in the age of men who held huge influence but who were not clergy men but secular figures. This was why the old guard hated them so much! ‘New men’ the were known as , the only comparable figures perhaps would have been Richard Empson and Edmund Dudley in Henry 7th reign - incredible useful to the king but once dead they were hunted out and executed for high treason.
TRÁI ĐẤT tự nhiên sinh ra và TRÁI ĐẤT cũng sẽ tự nhiên mất đi. Con người không biết tranh thủ vui chơi mà lại vẫn đi giết hại lẫn nhau, là vì con người vẫn còn u mê, dù giai đoạn lạc hậu đã trôi qua. NGƯỜI YÊU NGƯỜI SỐNG ĐỂ YÊU NHAU - Tố Hữu. Hãy lắng nghe, hãy thấu hiểu lời bác Tố Hữu và cùng nhau tiêu hủy hết các loại vũ khí gây sát thương cho con người trên trái đất này (from Vietnam).
Mark Rylance looks more like he should be sitting in the snug of The Rovers Return with Ena Sharples . He's morphed into Minnie Caldwell.! Does anyone know what he based his performance of Cromwell upon..???
Rhesus negative and AB positive...? I think you know what he means..?The days of being cancelled because of wrong choice of words is over or haven't you realised. What's the current favourite : Dual Heritage or somesuch...??
@@forestsunset9617 Just because it's not a "documentary" doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for historical accuracy in as many aspects of the show as they can. Especially when the first season was so highly immersive. It's fine though. When someone makes a show about an important Muslim, Asian, or African historical figure with a bunch of white actors I'm sure you and the rest of the pro "colorblind casting" crowd will be fine with it, right?
@@therevolvingmonk I couldn't less who is cast. It may be based on history but is still a work of fiction and entertainment. If you want 100% accuracy read published papers by academics, and even then there is debate on what actually happened 500 years ago. So take your right wing culture war snowflake nonsense somewhere else.
I'm almost positive that this is Henry speaking through Gardiner, trying to feel out Cromwell, especially with those persistent rumors that Thomas wants to marry Mary. Henry's already replaced him, the fall's already begun, and all of this is just them gathering evidence.
It's ironic really. Cromwell helped usher an age of unrestrained monarch. By doing so he made himself rich and powerful, but also sow seeds of his own demise.
He was dealing with an unstable monarch.
Cromwell also laid the foundation for the administrative state run by competent people he trained, not by the aristocracy who thought they had a birthright to run the kingdom.
That’s what eventually got him killed. Cromwell wouldn’t stay in his lane.
@@kimhaas7586 Cromwell was an opportunistic, amoral, power-hungry office-seeker who would stop at nothing to secure position and status for himself, including engineering people's deaths based on what he knew to be false evidence.
Whilst his Great Grandson attempted to do the very opposite and would've met his demise at the end of the Commonwealth had he not died sooner. Nonetheless, King Henry had Thomas executed whilst Oliver greatly advocated for the execution of King Charles
@@kimhaas7586 Sure he did. The bureaucratic apparatus served the monarch first. Not the state, not the people. As far as balance of power was concerned it was a step back. What options for redress and counterweights existed when Henry became king, were destroyed. Every taboo was broken.
I understand the need for romantic notion of "man pushing society forward". It is a nice thought. But ultimately, Cromwell was not that man.
Thomas and Oliver Cromwell weren't related
In any way
Oliver Cromwell is a very interesting figure in his own right
Idk why Cromwell didn’t call out Gardiner for the fact the French king made a pact with Spain while (or right after) Gardiner was in Paris. Surely that’s incompetence or treason from Gardiner right there
I was thinking just that!
In the entirety of Wolf Hall, Cromwell kept his cool. The ice is cracked all around him. There’s nowhere left to go but down 😢
Tears for a man who sent innocent people to their deaths?
@@letolethe3344 No man at that table is a "good man". Cromwell is perhaps the main one I have any sympathy for, but that's likely just due to Mark Rylance's incredible portrayal.
Replacing the Sherlock guy with the man who played the Duke of Winsor was a very good choice, an insidious, well spoken man you can see using his resentment to keep in favour. His vendetta comes from wanting to hide his incompetence, much like Norfolk
I prefer Mark Gatiss in the role.
Gattiss can't act. He writes well and his documentaries are good but he can't act. He plays like he's a teenager in a school production. He should stick to what he's good at Alex Jennings has far more presence and smooth skill.
@@grassic He is very good onstage. On screen he is better at broader strokes comedy. Just a different style.
@ I love his snide arrogance, which suits this particular role.
@@slicksalmon6948 Jennings plays the arrogant scoundrel very well, especially when basking in a victory and rubbing it in
... and soon they'll call him a traitor as well. 😬
And history continues to debate...
@@Lorrdd Yes exactly. Choose your historian. Although not a historian I think Hilary Mantel tells it pretty much as it was. The heretic burning "Saint" Thomas More in particular. The Man for all Seasons!!!
I wish they didn’t take so long to make this season. Would have loved to have seen Bernard Hill back as the Duke of Norfolk again. RIP.
Yes I agree, much as I like Timothy Spall he doesn't really follow on from Bernard Hill. It'd would have been interesting to have seen Rylance's Cromwell throttling Hill's Duke of Norfolk.
I feel its more subtle in the book , but Cromwells transformation from James bond in a codpiece to a bumbling distracted space cadet simp is too abrupt , it doesnt really work in the show
I noticed this too, although I felt in the books it abruptly happened after Anne’s execution. It’s like Mantel didn’t know how to ease into Cromwell’s undoing, so he just suddenly became incautious, then outright incompetent. Straughan repeats likewise, but with Dorothy’s rejection. There’s no steady lead up to the break; the break suddenly just happens, and instead of Cromwell recovering as he has done previously he just makes it worse and worse.
Mirror and the Light was weaker than the first two books, so I’m not surprised that this season, although still good, is also weaker than the first.
Not having this. Cromwell wasn't a white man.
Or a man
High Table at its best !
Thomas Cromwell is just beating everyone up this season aint he 😂
When you hear the voice of an actor who played as a German lackey on another epic series you know you're in a memorable scene. :)
As one English Lord once said, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." This Lord served the English King.
Duke of Norfolk really had that coming! 😂
Could Cromwell have looked more guilty?😂
Real historical events of the Tudors are so much more unnerving than anything in GoT
These dramas dont tell the real truth, it would upset to many people
😊😊😊🥰
Thank you
Why do they always feel so comfortable poking him?
It was seen as being grasping to be effective in those days. Especially by the lower ranking nobles with little wealth who could easily be replaced by common educated men.
He's not a true Lord.
He was born a commoner, and worked his way up, but they never let him forget it.
he's a commoner
raised far far above his station
and a thug?
at this stage theres blood in the water. Everyone but Crumb knows hes toast
Previously through our the middle-ages and early Tudor period the only figures to reach the ranks of nobility in terms of power and influence were churchmen - and the ecclesiastical office is what protected them (most of the time). Henry’s reign ushered in the age of men who held huge influence but who were not clergy men but secular figures. This was why the old guard hated them so much! ‘New men’ the were known as , the only comparable figures perhaps would have been Richard Empson and Edmund Dudley in Henry 7th reign - incredible useful to the king but once dead they were hunted out and executed for high treason.
Well, Cromwell engineered the death of Anne Boleyn for Henry, so, yah, kinda…
TRÁI ĐẤT tự nhiên sinh ra và TRÁI ĐẤT cũng sẽ tự nhiên mất đi. Con người không biết tranh thủ vui chơi mà lại vẫn đi giết hại lẫn nhau, là vì con người vẫn còn u mê, dù giai đoạn lạc hậu đã trôi qua.
NGƯỜI YÊU NGƯỜI SỐNG ĐỂ YÊU NHAU - Tố Hữu. Hãy lắng nghe, hãy thấu hiểu lời bác Tố Hữu và cùng nhau tiêu hủy hết các loại vũ khí gây sát thương cho con người trên trái đất này (from Vietnam).
Did Cromwell actually assault Norfolk in real life?
Almost certainly not.
More like lustful hall hiding behind their clothes. "Oh. Welcome to lustful hall".
Love how Russian bots are so desperate that they're now spewing nonsense on Tudor TV dramas 🤣
What’s happening in this scene? Where are all the black people? Most confusing.
That buzzing noise is SO annoying and frankly out of place. Weird choice.
Yes, the sound design is way too loud there!
Mark Rylance looks more like he should be sitting in the snug of The Rovers Return with Ena Sharples . He's morphed into Minnie Caldwell.!
Does anyone know what he based his performance of Cromwell upon..???
Nah, they didn't have Milk Stout in those days
What are you on about?
Excellent acting ,but i still can't believe real people like Jane Seymours sister been played by a mixed blood actor 😢 just mad .
You think every word in this drama was actually spoken verbatim at the time? It's a TV show, not a documentary.
What do you mean by mixed blood?
Rhesus negative and AB positive...?
I think you know what he means..?The days of being cancelled because of wrong choice of words is over or haven't you realised.
What's the current favourite : Dual Heritage
or somesuch...??
@@forestsunset9617 Just because it's not a "documentary" doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for historical accuracy in as many aspects of the show as they can. Especially when the first season was so highly immersive.
It's fine though. When someone makes a show about an important Muslim, Asian, or African historical figure with a bunch of white actors I'm sure you and the rest of the pro "colorblind casting" crowd will be fine with it, right?
@@therevolvingmonk I couldn't less who is cast. It may be based on history but is still a work of fiction and entertainment. If you want 100% accuracy read published papers by academics, and even then there is debate on what actually happened 500 years ago. So take your right wing culture war snowflake nonsense somewhere else.
😊
the book is not near as eloquent as this