So glad you preface this with "Geoff Johns is not a bad writer". Anything negative I've said about Three Jokers has been met with "you just don't like his writing".
As someone who doesn't like Three Jokers. It's not because of Geoff Johns. Johns is actually one of my favorite writers. I love anything he does with JSA as a team and single characters. I loved his event comics Infinite Crisis and Blackest Night. I love his Teen Titans run. I do not hate Geoff Johns writing. I hate when Johns tries to be something he's not. Alan Moore.
I have found myself enjoying Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers a lot more by considering them as “What if” stories. “What if the Watchmen Characters met the DC characters?” “What if there were three jokers?” That justification in my head makes me actually enjoy both stories as fun speculative comics. I do agree that both stories have a whiff of corporate influence, really hammering in the final nail against Alan Moore, once again claiming the works he wrote for the company.
I’ve always seen Geoff Johns as “Mr. DC Comics” myself. He clearly enjoys and understands these characters to an amazing degree and uses his stories to elevate them as such. However, as you said, he doesn’t necessarily push the envelope all that much so to speak. In regards to Three Jokers and Doomsday Clock, I feel like those stories were a result of the company not having a clear direction of what it wanted to do post-Rebirth. It could be speculated Johns wanted to do something very unique and groundbreaking with both books, however, I believe whatever good ideas he had were unfortunately put on back burner/ deleted when DC decided to move forward with events like DK Metal, Heroes in Crisis, and many other pointless events which ultimately forced Johns into creating two lackluster events of his own. He strikes me as a man who is so in love with DC Comics superheroes, as a fan and creator, that he wants to touch every corner of universe he can and then spin it into something more on brand with the characters’ inherent optimism. Finally, it’s time to tackle Moore’s darker and, at times, more nihilistic work (which is antithetical to such optimism) and the results very between readers...DRASTICALLY. Although, I personally very much enjoyed his time as a writer, I also feel he would be better off as Editor-in-Chief than a writer or Creative Officer of Entertainment. Seeing his work and what he’s tried to imply with his writing, I think it’s fair to say he’s more suited to that job than he is as a writer currently.
I agree about there being an absence of direction, but that's made worse when there's an obvious business mandate to fabricate a high selling "event". It's like when media corporations manufacture bet selling musical acts by basically engineering everything about the performers and the music. (Although the media corporations are actually quite successful at doing that, whereas comic book corporations are not.) I appreciated the video's insight in noticing that Three Jokers and Doomsday Clock are (pathetic) public assertions of ownership over the original Alan Moore works. They are definitely that, although I am not convinced that anyone at DC is conciously aware that this is what they are doing. I think they are most likely motivated by the thought process "how do we make a best seller? I know, we make a sequel to a previous best seller!" As for Geoff Johns, I think he's talented (certainly more so than I am) and simply willing to do the work he's handed. I don't blame anyone for that, nor for "failing" to be overwhelmingly inspired. It's hard to imagine saying "no" to either assignment, even if one has enough experience to question how good any sequel to those works could ever be. Unfortunately it might bite Johns in the butt if he starts to get blamed for less-than-expected sales. (iI have no idea how either book has or will do, nor what's expected of them.)
I personally really like some of his ideas, concepts and the dramatic parts of his stories. However, I really find his over the top glorification of his favorite characters really annoying and rather detrimental. Also, his treatments of the characters he dislikes sometime are mostly backed by character derailments to justify a point IMO.
I feel that his fondness of Golden and Silver Age characters are often a detriment to both the world and stories themselves. Many legacy characters have suffered because he pushed for the “original and best” to be returned to the spotlight and given personalities that crib on their successors’ because they didn’t have much of one in the first place. Look at Barry Allen. Plus there’s the fact that all his favorite and most prominent characters are white guys. What minority characters he does make are given a bare bones personality and have to be handed off to a different writer to become interesting much like Bendis.
I haven't read Three Jokers and I wasn't planning to. Nonetheless I enjoyed the eloquent way you critiqued the comic and I think it's a fair perspective. Hopefully people don't take it personally.
It’s interesting, I think the point (story point at least) of 3 jokers actually had very little to do with the joker character, I think it’s an attempt to solve the core problem of Batman, which is that the view of “crime” in Batman comics is juvenile and (sadly using a word I tend to hate) problematic, it really hits home with the treatment of Joe Chill, generally crime in Batman is framed as this evil ‘force’ that Batman can wage a ‘war’ on, this is pretty obviously not a representation of reality where crime is fare more complex, and involves ideas of poverty, class dynamics, poor education, lack of opportunity, and cycles of escalating violence, in this Chill is portrayed as having been poor, downtrodden, angry, confused, and desperate lashing out violently when he kills Batman’s parents, a decision he comes to regret as he develops perspective, this theme is reinforced through the comparison of batgirl and red hood and how they deal with their respective trauma, RH without the tools to deal with his trauma lashes out violently just like Chill did and continue an escalating cycle of violence, I think this reflection on crime and violence is kinda the point of the story (to perhaps escape the billionaire going into the inner city and beating up poor people issue) as for the the Joker, the entire story is a smokescreen in this he’s portrayed as simply being a violent narcissist (your mileage may vary on this) and the connection to the killing joke family is to show that he indeed was always this way and the chemicals didn’t create the joker at all, sorry for the novella
I’m sure someone else already said it but oh well. Joker knowing Batman’s identity was revealed in Scott Snyder & Greg Capullo’s Endgame storyline. Just reupped here and in Secret Files. That being said: Great video!!
I actually like the idea of Joker is not a force of nature but a process that can be remade. Humanizing Joker makes us watch ourselves closer because evil is not some outside force but human choice and decisions just make good ones.
"NO ONE CAN KNOW WHAT I REALLY AM, I AM FORMLESS CHAOS, THAT THERE IS NO CONVENIENT EXPLANATION AFTER ALL IS THE POINT"-few pages later-"Anyway, the Killing Joke origin is canon". It literally ends with saying him having a definied identity is dumb ON THE SAME PAGE firmly giving him a defined indentity. Amazing.
Didn't care for THE THREE JOKERS at all, but then, I also don't like THE KILLING JOKE, either. DOOMSDAY CLOCK has a little more going for it but I just can't get with crossing WATCHMEN characters into the DCU. One thing all three books have going for them is that they are all absolutely gorgeous to look at!
The whole thing annoys me. It destroys rather than create, and it raises questions such as: If there were 3 of them for decades, this would mean that when one of them is caught and put in Arkham, the other two sat around watching soaps because they never been seen overlapping till now. I am to believe that the prince of chaos sits around wait for "his turn"? If Batman knew that there were 3, then all this time he's been satisfied catching 1 at a time and then also just waiting around. My brain is hurting. Batman asks the Mobius Chair for Joker's identity and then looks really surprised by the answer, but in this story it's implied that he always knew... so why even ask the chair? I've seen some claim that he was just "testing the chair", but why then the shocked look on his face? He KNEW that the chair is supposed to be able to tell him, so that isn't going to rattle Batman. It had to be the answer it gave. I hate it. I'm not even a Batman fan but I hate this story. Is anyone able to salvage it for me?
this was bang on point!!! I was thoroughly underwhelmed by 3 jokers, and doomsday clock for that matter. I couldn't put my finger 9n exactly why until just now!
I totally agree with you. That was my initial reaction to this series. If there are three Jokers there is nothing unique about the character of the Joker. There is no need for an explanation for the different interpretations of the Joker over the years, and if it has to be one, I liked the one Grant Morrison gave in his Batman run, where Joker is supposed to be someone whose personality and attributes keep changing over the years and you have no idea of what kind of monster he will turn into next.
DC can produce sequels to Watchmen and Killing Joke and Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? (Neil Gaiman's "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader?") and any story they want; we simply don't have to read them. I prefer a quote from the New York Times: "The American novelist James M. Cain once remarked that he had rarely gone to see the screen version of one of his novels. 'People tell me, don’t you care what they’ve done to your book? I tell them, they haven’t done anything to my book. It’s right there on the shelf. They paid me and that’s the end of it.'"
To further support your position, I haven't heard or read a single (trustworthy) source say either 3 Jokers of Doomsday Clock are worth investing in. I've avoided both like the plague. I want to like Johns more than I actually do. I think he peaked with Blackest Night.
@@residentgrigo4701 Yeah I would agree, they are certainly readable, but sequels to probably the smartest mainstream comics writer ever and they just....aren't even close to that level, they aren't hackwork but they read as mostly pointless.
I’ll defend doomsday clock in concept . I don’t think watchmen crossing over with the dc universe is this sacred bounds that can’t happen. As indie comics gain power, to me it’s become kinda clear that crossover to the dc/ marvel universe don’t devalue the orginal stories and are often time fun character explorations as to what if scenarios. The Maxx are great but I also love the Batman crossover. Or the Batman planetary crossover being one of the best Batman stories I have read. I don’t think that’s what we got with doomsday clock.
I do think Johns has some weird obsession with Alan Moore. Blackest Night, DDC, and 3 Jokers were stories based on work from Alan Moore. Yes, Johns is not a deep writer. I really don't like many of his tropes, and his tendency to apply them to various characters, making them bland. As stated, Johns will turn back the clock, and erase years of work done on a character. Johns seemingly has no respect for the work done by past writers. Johns literally undid just about every questionable development Hal Jordan went through, and by the end of the Green Lantern run, was a boring character (a trait long associated with the hero). I also can't stand Johns' tendency to favor villains over their heroic counterparts. Black Adam might be more popular than Captain Marvel. Lastly, I think Joker having a family is the dumbest decision for the character ever. If anything, Batman is the Joker's "family." I really hope 3 Jokers is not in continuity. Someone will have a "bright idea" about Joker's son, and DC will have truly jumped the shark.
Moore’s just Johns and DC’s favorite scapegoat to point to when their bad writing, overeliance on grim dark, and everything falling apart thanks to trend chasing necessitates a “reboot”. Just something to point to and say, “that’s why everything is so dark! We need to move past that and be nice and hopeful again!”. Then they just redo the cycle after chasing some nostalgia bucks.
Moore did IMPLY Joker has a wife. But I was shocked to reread KJoke and realize he may be lying. Maybe Joker could have a family ... we don't know. I prefer its left unknown but in principle it might work.
The flashback in TKJ was always 100% canon to Moore. It was Boland who aked to insert the ambiguity. CBR´s Brian Cronin dug that up. The abysmal Return of Hush established that the TKJ flashback is 100% canon. At least before 2011. Riddler even knew Jokers' wife, lol: dc.fandom.com/wiki/Batman:_Hush_Returns Endgame and Snyder´s comics in general also showed that the Joker knew who Batman is but he simply didn´t care. I could go on and on. The comic was fine and looked amazing but it had no new ideas outside of Jason x Babs. Mega lol. Look forward to the sequel next year. Jokers: The New Batch! Tripple lol. bleedingcool.com/comics/batman-three-jokers-sequel-geoff-johns-jason-fabok/ Edit: TKJ was also meant to be 100% canon since release day: www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-585/
Jason x Babs was also done back in Batman: Eternal from 2014 lol. I'm pretty sure it ended pretty similarly too, with Jason planning to tell Barbara how he feels, but then deciding against it at the last second
@@thomasharasyn1116 Shit, you are right. Gaggy came back in the late 00s in Gotham City Sirens. Gordon knowing that Babs is Batgirl is from the 80s (or was it the 70s?). Fox´s Gotham had him confronting Chill in a slightly similar way. There was a replacement Joker right after ADitF for one arc and on Batman Beyond and in DKSA and... Etc. Not hard to write a script if you only have to transcribe the work of others but the mini wasn´t bad either. It still took 4 years. How long will Part 4 of 3 take? We´ll see.
Oh Cmon now. I personally can’t wait for miniseries that flesh out and explain the other Alan Moore created DC properties. 5-issue series about the Black Mercy plant, maybe Dr Manhattan can open another portal and incorporate V for Vendetta! Finally a Rorschach Vs V event the fans have always wanted. Personally I’ve waited my whole life for a Green lantern corps series focused on Mogo, Leezle Pin (a super intelligent smallpox virus), Dkrtzy RRR (an abstract mathematical progression only the guardians can perceive), and Rot Lop Fan (from the farthest and darkest part of the universe where his language and senses can’t comprehend the concept of “light” or “color”). There’s endless untapped potential that Alan Moore just couldn’t be bothered to “fully explore”. 😬
@@Briarpatchlogic yeah. Also Leezle Pin I think made an appearance too. If Morrison wasn’t more interested in Hal Jordan stuff I’d love seeing him on GL. Get me coked out 90s Morrison on GL anyday.
@@VuotoPneumaNN yeah. I think he only ever really went into detail about doing psychedelics not specifically cocaine. It’s a joke. Jeez. I’m just saying I’d prefer the stuff and writing he did in his early years. Of course I’m not advocating him to start using drugs. It’s very likely the bigger factor isn’t that he’s not on drugs anymore but that he could get away with doing more out there and extreme stuff with c list nobody comic characters like animal man and doom patrol than he can with Batman, green lantern, the justice league, etc. Allstar Superman was good. The thing he’s really done recently that’s impressed me is taking over as a head editor/curator for Heavy Metal Magazine helping to reinvigorate the title.
@@MangaMattReviews I tend to agree with you, only I am actually advocating him to start using drugs again. I think drugs are very important. The thing is: DC would never allow him or anyone to do anything really far out with their A-list characters for fear it would hurt their brand.
@@VuotoPneumaNN well. Can’t blame him. After it became established that you can be independent and successful it’s hurt mainstream comics. “Why would I give the big two my best and most interesting ideas?” I see it in interviews all the time now with up and comers doing jobber work at dc/marvel to get exposure while working on their real interesting passion work elsewhere. Except for your “company men” like Johns and Bendis. Which is how I see them as they not only handle most of the big events comics-wise but are very involved with the media-side.
I'm not sure what your comments are like but I've been watching your posts and analysis and I wanted to say I appreciate them. They've been educational and entertaining. Thank you.
Corporate culture will always try to milk a stone. In my mind, these are still stand alone works of art. This is why I stopped buying corporate comics.
Your reviews are ALWAYS enjoyable. This one was important, as important as the 3 book series. Why DC wanted this in their canon is difficult to speculate. But what's done is done and now we can read and reread these 3 issues to glean just what John's had in mind. Thank you again for your insight and your explanation of a mini series no one needed.
I remember an episode of It's always sunny, where the female characters went through the same challenge as the male characters just a copuple of episodes prior. One of the females says "If you want them to take us seriously, why we have to copy the same thing they did?" (she didn't say it like that, but you got it). Johnns asks himself what made this or that character a hero, and write to show their strenghts, so he writes for the character. Not for himself nor the readers. If it is good, you want more of the same. Nobody's asking johnns to be like Moore, it's late for him to try to write in that registry.
@@kulturkriget I don't know if humane is the word I would use. Maybe wish fullfilment. He needs, almost everytime, bi demensional characters with a lot of background to heat, revolve and serve again in the plate (sorry if I get the grammar wrong there). The point also is, that those are not his characters neither. I can't say if a writer is really a good author when he doesn't build a story (and characters, a new world, concepts, etc) from scratch. Until that, he is to me a 9 to 5 worker for one especific company.
In Batman #17 (the conclusion of the "The death of the family" arc), a flashback established that, after their first fight, Bruce went to visit the Joker at Arkham and revealed this true identity to the him. So...
Nothing more than corporate housekeeping, damn that's a brutal review, thanks for the honesty! "In moments of weakness, when the shadows get too close, when chaos threatens the intimate order we believe in, a smiling figure steps forward and laughs at our struggle" That's powerful, is this an original SBP quote or from somewhere?
Only thing of interest for me in this video was the inclusion of covers from Giffen's Justice League, I hope this is hinting to a coming video on that run.
I think your right dc can't leave those stories alone. I still choose to view alan Moore's work as singular and dc's sequel's as extra content the reader can add to those stories cannon. That being said I did really like the before watchmen mini series's👍
I think the best thing about the comic is that these three Jokers appear to be the physical manifestations of the Joker's change in character throughout comics, as well as what seems like the three core parts of his personality.
3 Jokers was such a nothing book, it tries to be impactful and deep but fails. It’s kinda made me realize that I don’t like Johns writing at all anymore
Honestly thought Three Jokers was alright. I personally didn't know WHAT to expect from it since it was the lesser mystery of DC Rebirth at the time & with how the Batbooks are now it really feels inconsequential. I definitely tolerated it more than Batman Who Laughs that's for sure.
Oddly enough there are some things that were said in this video that match up with Paul Dini's run of Batman; some more than others but they rarely go anywhere either.
That's all Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers is. It's a way of keeping the copyright, and making a quick cash grab while DC's at it. No substance. No good storytelling. Plot holes aplenty, and really bad dialogue for good measure.
I agree with pretty much everything you say here. After reading through this story, Dark Knight's Metal and Doomsday Clock; I decided to take a break from modern comics. And go back and actually buy the weird comics I liked from way back when. Coincidentally, that is when I found this channel. I feel like Three Jokers and Doomsday Clock take away from their source material more than they give back. Also I think it's crummy that DC keeps trotting out Alan Moore's work, when he doesn't want anything to do with them. At this point, I'm waiting for DC to announce a sequel to v for vendetta.
Always enjoy your well thought out takes & analysis even if I don't always agree. I think John's deserves a little more credit, at least in his Lantern run, creating all the new corps, emotional spectrum etc. The reveal of Batman knowing Jokers identity was a huge mistake as well as the family reveal, couldn't agree more but I enjoyed the story for Batgirl & Redhood, it was a nice look at their contrasting characters. Also the Jokers motivation in the story, redeeming Joe Chill, so that the Joker becomes the most important person to Batman, I thought was a nice touch. Anyway good job as always 👏
@@StrangeBrainParts I'd rather do a voice chat that's why I love discord so much but thanks I might actually do send you a DM cuz it's a couple questions I wouldn't mind asking you like what's your thought on the X-Treme X-Men comics or the d&d comics that came out from DC comics way back in the day
Funny thing is 3 joker could have work if it was hugo strange trying to create other jokers to push batman to be his best self This could have been a great message about oversaturation of joker then joker could hunt the others saying something like too many joker is worst than not enough
Eh, Snyder revealed that Joker knew Batman's identity in 2012 with Death OF the Family, SBP/Overlord. Also, in all canons, Batman has been puzzled by Joker's identity for years after their first meeting. Even in this quasi-canon story (yes, I call 3J that because this story plays loose with reveals and the looks of the characters), that Bruce has always known makes no sense. Three Jokers was teased/setup years ago while Snyder setup that Bruce could not determine Joker's identity via DNA or fingerprints and that whole Pale Man angle. And Joker's backstory isn't about canon, the more appropriate term would be truth or lie. A better context when explaining things. This story is GJ's biggest failure.
I read the comic and I gotta say, it's a good story when you don't look into it too much, i havent read the killing joke myself, but I have heard of the origin of the joker it made, personally i think of it as an ok mystery book with a somewhat shocking ending, I didn't expect a masterpiece, I just expected a good read.
I love Geoff Johns' writing. I disagree with your characterizations of his work. He has reset many franchises and allowed them to grow. If you compare his Green Lantern mythos to others, it is unmatched. Same for Hawkman and Flash. Johns vs Grant Morrison on GL is no contest, IMO. Johns takes it all the way. His impact will be as long lasting as Moore's, again IMO. That said, his approach is cinematic (and admittedly commercial) rather than literary, which Alan Moore's specialty. Moore is clearly the superior CREATOR. The basis of the 3 Jokers Story is not the Joker(s) him/them self/selves, rather the effect of trauma on his victims, viewed through Batgirl and Red Hood, The forgivess/redemption arc, viewed through Joe Chill. Its an emotional story. Those are Johns specialties and where he beats Moore. All of Moore's characters lack a certain warmth that makes you care about them. Moore beats Johns in imagination. That said, knowing the Joker's true identity was a WTF moment, especially since the whole question was kicked off by Batman asking the Mobius chair the Joker's real name. That was dumb. Great video as always. You always give me tons to think about. Thanks Overlord!
@@kulturkriget what? Moore doesn't make you care about his characters?? Bullshit. Moore's work is full of incredibly touching, introspective, deep character moments, from Halo Jones to Swamp Thing to V For Vendetta to Promethea. That statement MIGHT be true if you've only read Watchmen, but he's wrote a fuckton of other material.
@@kulturkriget It was just an example. In that book the main character (Evey) isn't by any means "cold" and it makes you want to care about her. That's true for most of Moore's work. You can't base a statement on an Author's work on just a tiny portion of his output.
In my own personal head canon, basically everyone in Gotham knows Bruce Wayne is Batman (come on, who else could it be?) but they let him get it away with because he and his corporations and foundations are the only thing keeping the city from turning into Detroit.
This is the single greatest head canon I have heard in years. I thank you, sir. I immediately thought of the time Dusty Rhodes was forced to leave a promotion only to show up in a mask. Now Bruce Wayne sounds like Dusty Rhodes in my head canon.
@@elsantodelsol Mid-South Wrestling once did that with the Junkyard Dog: he came back in a mask as"Stagger Lee". I didn't know that had happened elsewhere. But it's a good gimmick, I'm sure there must be other cases.
@Darth Pancake Studios Well, it's not bulletproof, I admit. I should also admit I haven't read an actual Batman story since Jason Todd was still dead, so my views could be years and reboots out of continuity.
I enjoyed his batman earth 1 books & his early green lantern but he really hit or miss with me, but am I the only one who thinks killing joke is a lil overrated ? I thought it was more of the shock of what happens that sticks with people (hated the ending, batman don’t laugh) but again alan Moore can do no wrong for some people, I did enjoy his swamp thing & League books though
Corporate house cleaning. Before I BLEED OUT any cash on the miserable excuse for entertainment DC is anymore, I damn well want some spoiler alert or three.
Even The Killing Joke didn't treat itself as canon. It's the namesake of the "multiple-choice past" trope. It was an open invitation for other writers to make up more possible backstories for the Joker. Nobody ever did, because the cult of Alan Moore does a disservice to comics culture at every turn.
Tynion's run is far more fun and interesting than the three jokers. Thanks for mentioning that their identities don't matter. Idc who the joker is, I care that joker IS.
I have always thought Johns was a hack writer. A good hack, don't get me wrong, but he has never shown an original idea. All of his great work is built on top of others. So what is next, bring vanishing point back to the universe? Your rant was atypical but I do enjoy hearing your views
I paid cash for the first two chapters. Thankfully, spoilers obliged me from paying for the third. I love Geoff but this was the epitome of miscalculation. The story basically adds up to nothing. I don't even like the known killer of the Waynes anyway. It was one of the few Post 86 changes I liked. This is one of the few moments where DC copying Marvel doesn't work in its own way. This is a poor man's Wolverine: Origin.
I felt the first two acts of the story were trying to lead the character of Red Hood to a new and interesting place. Then it tacked on some Batman continuity and Alan Moore material and lost any coherence.
@Darth Pancake Studios The only issue I had with that is how they always try to pair batgirl off with members of the Bat Family just because she's the only girl.
@Darth Pancake Studios My read on that was that he wanted to be accepted and to try to be normal. I appreciate Batgirl didn't have the time for it though. Red Hood was willing to give being Red Hood because he doesn't want to be Red Hood. It sort of had nothing to do with Batgirl, which brings it back around to why pair them off?
Is anyone else sick of the Joker? I'm tired of him killing people and never getting killed on return because of Batman's "no-kill policy". It's just annoying is all.
I cant really find myself enjoying Three Jokers. It also did the crime of ignoring Morrison's explanation for his changing attitudes as supersanity, which I preferred. Having it be 3 different Jokers just cheapens the character.
A complete waste and follow up to batman in the moebius chair. Also batman not realizing there are 3 different jokers? The greatest detective in dc? Really?
When was your last re read of Killing Joke? It is over wrought. It is meandering. It doesn't age well. 3 Jokers is weak, but Killing Joke is not some sacred unassailable master work. Morrison disowned the story and all of his personal criticism are valid. In my opinion. I enjoy your work.
I really hate to be.... "That guy"..... But the reveal that Joker knows who Batman is has been around since 2013 with Scott Snyder's "Death of the family"
Technically yes but actually no Later in the comic bit we see his bat-computer having joker identity as unknown But you’re right to say that he play around with the idea first
@Darth Pancake Studios in fairness, he did literally shout "I know who you are!!!" at one point. And he did go after Alfred which would back that up. Like I see no reason to doubt he did know
@Darth Pancake Studios True the diary was empty, but at the end, Batman tells Alfred how he went to visit Joker in Arkham as Bruce Wayne and confronted him about the card. Joker didn't care then. Kinda makes more sense that he always knew instead of finding out who Batman is randomly off screen
So glad you preface this with "Geoff Johns is not a bad writer". Anything negative I've said about Three Jokers has been met with "you just don't like his writing".
Right. I loved what he did with hawkman and black adam in jsa. He has it in him
I mean, what kind of argument is that anyway? Maybe I don't, because he's quite often very bad, so what?
As someone who doesn't like Three Jokers. It's not because of Geoff Johns. Johns is actually one of my favorite writers. I love anything he does with JSA as a team and single characters. I loved his event comics Infinite Crisis and Blackest Night. I love his Teen Titans run. I do not hate Geoff Johns writing. I hate when Johns tries to be something he's not. Alan Moore.
It really sets the tone. Insisting that someone is not a bad writer does a better job of discrediting a writer than just calling them a bad writer.
@@domgeek5632 I know I'm 2 years, to late but....
THIS!!!!!
I have found myself enjoying Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers a lot more by considering them as “What if” stories. “What if the Watchmen Characters met the DC characters?” “What if there were three jokers?” That justification in my head makes me actually enjoy both stories as fun speculative comics.
I do agree that both stories have a whiff of corporate influence, really hammering in the final nail against Alan Moore, once again claiming the works he wrote for the company.
I’ve always seen Geoff Johns as “Mr. DC Comics” myself. He clearly enjoys and understands these characters to an amazing degree and uses his stories to elevate them as such. However, as you said, he doesn’t necessarily push the envelope all that much so to speak. In regards to Three Jokers and Doomsday Clock, I feel like those stories were a result of the company not having a clear direction of what it wanted to do post-Rebirth. It could be speculated Johns wanted to do something very unique and groundbreaking with both books, however, I believe whatever good ideas he had were unfortunately put on back burner/ deleted when DC decided to move forward with events like DK Metal, Heroes in Crisis, and many other pointless events which ultimately forced Johns into creating two lackluster events of his own. He strikes me as a man who is so in love with DC Comics superheroes, as a fan and creator, that he wants to touch every corner of universe he can and then spin it into something more on brand with the characters’ inherent optimism. Finally, it’s time to tackle Moore’s darker and, at times, more nihilistic work (which is antithetical to such optimism) and the results very between readers...DRASTICALLY.
Although, I personally very much enjoyed his time as a writer, I also feel he would be better off as Editor-in-Chief than a writer or Creative Officer of Entertainment. Seeing his work and what he’s tried to imply with his writing, I think it’s fair to say he’s more suited to that job than he is as a writer currently.
I agree about there being an absence of direction, but that's made worse when there's an obvious business mandate to fabricate a high selling "event". It's like when media corporations manufacture bet selling musical acts by basically engineering everything about the performers and the music. (Although the media corporations are actually quite successful at doing that, whereas comic book corporations are not.)
I appreciated the video's insight in noticing that Three Jokers and Doomsday Clock are (pathetic) public assertions of ownership over the original Alan Moore works. They are definitely that, although I am not convinced that anyone at DC is conciously aware that this is what they are doing. I think they are most likely motivated by the thought process "how do we make a best seller? I know, we make a sequel to a previous best seller!"
As for Geoff Johns, I think he's talented (certainly more so than I am) and simply willing to do the work he's handed. I don't blame anyone for that, nor for "failing" to be overwhelmingly inspired. It's hard to imagine saying "no" to either assignment, even if one has enough experience to question how good any sequel to those works could ever be. Unfortunately it might bite Johns in the butt if he starts to get blamed for less-than-expected sales. (iI have no idea how either book has or will do, nor what's expected of them.)
I personally really like some of his ideas, concepts and the dramatic parts of his stories. However, I really find his over the top glorification of his favorite characters really annoying and rather detrimental. Also, his treatments of the characters he dislikes sometime are mostly backed by character derailments to justify a point IMO.
I feel that his fondness of Golden and Silver Age characters are often a detriment to both the world and stories themselves. Many legacy characters have suffered because he pushed for the “original and best” to be returned to the spotlight and given personalities that crib on their successors’ because they didn’t have much of one in the first place. Look at Barry Allen. Plus there’s the fact that all his favorite and most prominent characters are white guys. What minority characters he does make are given a bare bones personality and have to be handed off to a different writer to become interesting much like Bendis.
I really miss the "until next time"
I don't. It was creepy.
Me too
Same lol, I loved how awkwardly timed it was!
@@VuotoPneumaNN i think it was meant to be creepy lol
I haven't read Three Jokers and I wasn't planning to. Nonetheless I enjoyed the eloquent way you critiqued the comic and I think it's a fair perspective. Hopefully people don't take it personally.
I want to say that I appreciate the openess to your bias. It's refreshing just to see someone open about it.
It’s interesting, I think the point (story point at least) of 3 jokers actually had very little to do with the joker character, I think it’s an attempt to solve the core problem of Batman, which is that the view of “crime” in Batman comics is juvenile and (sadly using a word I tend to hate) problematic, it really hits home with the treatment of Joe Chill, generally crime in Batman is framed as this evil ‘force’ that Batman can wage a ‘war’ on, this is pretty obviously not a representation of reality where crime is fare more complex, and involves ideas of poverty, class dynamics, poor education, lack of opportunity, and cycles of escalating violence, in this Chill is portrayed as having been poor, downtrodden, angry, confused, and desperate lashing out violently when he kills Batman’s parents, a decision he comes to regret as he develops perspective, this theme is reinforced through the comparison of batgirl and red hood and how they deal with their respective trauma, RH without the tools to deal with his trauma lashes out violently just like Chill did and continue an escalating cycle of violence, I think this reflection on crime and violence is kinda the point of the story (to perhaps escape the billionaire going into the inner city and beating up poor people issue) as for the the Joker, the entire story is a smokescreen in this he’s portrayed as simply being a violent narcissist (your mileage may vary on this) and the connection to the killing joke family is to show that he indeed was always this way and the chemicals didn’t create the joker at all, sorry for the novella
Yeah well, the Joker movie does all of these things much better.
I’m sure someone else already said it but oh well. Joker knowing Batman’s identity was revealed in Scott Snyder & Greg Capullo’s Endgame storyline. Just reupped here and in Secret Files.
That being said: Great video!!
I actually like the idea of Joker is not a force of nature but a process that can be remade. Humanizing Joker makes us watch ourselves closer because evil is not some outside force but human choice and decisions just make good ones.
Actually Joker know about Bruce secret Identity since 2014 Endgame storyline.
"NO ONE CAN KNOW WHAT I REALLY AM, I AM FORMLESS CHAOS, THAT THERE IS NO CONVENIENT EXPLANATION AFTER ALL IS THE POINT"-few pages later-"Anyway, the Killing Joke origin is canon". It literally ends with saying him having a definied identity is dumb ON THE SAME PAGE firmly giving him a defined indentity. Amazing.
@Always watching They explicitly show his wife and son from Killinh Joke at the end.
Thank you for explaining exactly how pointless both 3 Jokers and Doomsday Clock were; I thought they would be and avoided them entirely
Three Jokers was one of the most pointless books published in 2020.
Yeah, I felt like it was a huge waste of time.
I could listen to you talk about your opinion and reaction to comics for hours. Keep up the incredible content!
Didn't care for THE THREE JOKERS at all, but then, I also don't like THE KILLING JOKE, either. DOOMSDAY CLOCK has a little more going for it but I just can't get with crossing WATCHMEN characters into the DCU. One thing all three books have going for them is that they are all absolutely gorgeous to look at!
I still maintained Wally west was still my flash and barry allen didn't need to comeback
The whole thing annoys me. It destroys rather than create, and it raises questions such as: If there were 3 of them for decades, this would mean that when one of them is caught and put in Arkham, the other two sat around watching soaps because they never been seen overlapping till now. I am to believe that the prince of chaos sits around wait for "his turn"? If Batman knew that there were 3, then all this time he's been satisfied catching 1 at a time and then also just waiting around. My brain is hurting. Batman asks the Mobius Chair for Joker's identity and then looks really surprised by the answer, but in this story it's implied that he always knew... so why even ask the chair? I've seen some claim that he was just "testing the chair", but why then the shocked look on his face? He KNEW that the chair is supposed to be able to tell him, so that isn't going to rattle Batman. It had to be the answer it gave.
I hate it. I'm not even a Batman fan but I hate this story.
Is anyone able to salvage it for me?
this was bang on point!!! I was thoroughly underwhelmed by 3 jokers, and doomsday clock for that matter. I couldn't put my finger 9n exactly why until just now!
3 jokers 🃏 🃏 🃏 is the bane of all 80s comics nerds
I totally agree with you. That was my initial reaction to this series. If there are three Jokers there is nothing unique about the character of the Joker. There is no need for an explanation for the different interpretations of the Joker over the years, and if it has to be one, I liked the one Grant Morrison gave in his Batman run, where Joker is supposed to be someone whose personality and attributes keep changing over the years and you have no idea of what kind of monster he will turn into next.
DC can produce sequels to Watchmen and Killing Joke and Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? (Neil Gaiman's "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader?") and any story they want; we simply don't have to read them. I prefer a quote from the New York Times: "The American novelist James M. Cain once remarked that he had rarely gone to see the screen version of one of his novels. 'People tell me, don’t you care what they’ve done to your book? I tell them, they haven’t done anything to my book. It’s right there on the shelf. They paid me and that’s the end of it.'"
Very, very interesting. I always love your stuff.
To further support your position, I haven't heard or read a single (trustworthy) source say either 3 Jokers of Doomsday Clock are worth investing in. I've avoided both like the plague. I want to like Johns more than I actually do. I think he peaked with Blackest Night.
I would say you should probably continue your level of avoidance. :)
Both Reviewed well (not that anyone reads comic reviews) and sold like crazy. They are good. Just not that smart. Like at all.
@@residentgrigo4701 Yeah I would agree, they are certainly readable, but sequels to probably the smartest mainstream comics writer ever and they just....aren't even close to that level, they aren't hackwork but they read as mostly pointless.
I’ll defend doomsday clock in concept . I don’t think watchmen crossing over with the dc universe is this sacred bounds that can’t happen. As indie comics gain power, to me it’s become kinda clear that crossover to the dc/ marvel universe don’t devalue the orginal stories and are often time fun character explorations as to what if scenarios. The Maxx are great but I also love the Batman crossover. Or the Batman planetary crossover being one of the best Batman stories I have read. I don’t think that’s what we got with doomsday clock.
I do think Johns has some weird obsession with Alan Moore. Blackest Night, DDC, and 3 Jokers were stories based on work from Alan Moore. Yes, Johns is not a deep writer. I really don't like many of his tropes, and his tendency to apply them to various characters, making them bland. As stated, Johns will turn back the clock, and erase years of work done on a character. Johns seemingly has no respect for the work done by past writers. Johns literally undid just about every questionable development Hal Jordan went through, and by the end of the Green Lantern run, was a boring character (a trait long associated with the hero). I also can't stand Johns' tendency to favor villains over their heroic counterparts. Black Adam might be more popular than Captain Marvel. Lastly, I think Joker having a family is the dumbest decision for the character ever. If anything, Batman is the Joker's "family." I really hope 3 Jokers is not in continuity. Someone will have a "bright idea" about Joker's son, and DC will have truly jumped the shark.
DC jumped the shark 34 years ago.
That or DC just hate Moore's guts and brings back all the stuff that Moore wishes he had never done or given away.
@@rotwang2000 That's my theory too. i think both DC editorial and Johns actually hate Moore.
Moore’s just Johns and DC’s favorite scapegoat to point to when their bad writing, overeliance on grim dark, and everything falling apart thanks to trend chasing necessitates a “reboot”. Just something to point to and say, “that’s why everything is so dark! We need to move past that and be nice and hopeful again!”. Then they just redo the cycle after chasing some nostalgia bucks.
Moore did IMPLY Joker has a wife. But I was shocked to reread KJoke and realize he may be lying. Maybe Joker could have a family ... we don't know. I prefer its left unknown but in principle it might work.
The flashback in TKJ was always 100% canon to Moore. It was Boland who aked to insert the ambiguity. CBR´s Brian Cronin dug that up. The abysmal Return of Hush established that the TKJ flashback is 100% canon. At least before 2011. Riddler even knew Jokers' wife, lol: dc.fandom.com/wiki/Batman:_Hush_Returns
Endgame and Snyder´s comics in general also showed that the Joker knew who Batman is but he simply didn´t care. I could go on and on. The comic was fine and looked amazing but it had no new ideas outside of Jason x Babs. Mega lol.
Look forward to the sequel next year. Jokers: The New Batch! Tripple lol.
bleedingcool.com/comics/batman-three-jokers-sequel-geoff-johns-jason-fabok/
Edit: TKJ was also meant to be 100% canon since release day:
www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-585/
Jason x Babs was also done back in Batman: Eternal from 2014 lol. I'm pretty sure it ended pretty similarly too, with Jason planning to tell Barbara how he feels, but then deciding against it at the last second
@@thomasharasyn1116 Shit, you are right. Gaggy came back in the late 00s in Gotham City Sirens. Gordon knowing that Babs is Batgirl is from the 80s (or was it the 70s?). Fox´s Gotham had him confronting Chill in a slightly similar way. There was a replacement Joker right after ADitF for one arc and on Batman Beyond and in DKSA and... Etc.
Not hard to write a script if you only have to transcribe the work of others but the mini wasn´t bad either. It still took 4 years. How long will Part 4 of 3 take? We´ll see.
Oh Cmon now. I personally can’t wait for miniseries that flesh out and explain the other Alan Moore created DC properties. 5-issue series about the Black Mercy plant, maybe Dr Manhattan can open another portal and incorporate V for Vendetta! Finally a Rorschach Vs V event the fans have always wanted. Personally I’ve waited my whole life for a Green lantern corps series focused on Mogo, Leezle Pin (a super intelligent smallpox virus), Dkrtzy RRR (an abstract mathematical progression only the guardians can perceive), and Rot Lop Fan (from the farthest and darkest part of the universe where his language and senses can’t comprehend the concept of “light” or “color”). There’s endless untapped potential that Alan Moore just couldn’t be bothered to “fully explore”. 😬
@@Briarpatchlogic yeah. Also Leezle Pin I think made an appearance too. If Morrison wasn’t more interested in Hal Jordan stuff I’d love seeing him on GL. Get me coked out 90s Morrison on GL anyday.
@@MangaMattReviews I don't think he ever did coke. It was mostly MDMA.
@@VuotoPneumaNN yeah. I think he only ever really went into detail about doing psychedelics not specifically cocaine. It’s a joke. Jeez. I’m just saying I’d prefer the stuff and writing he did in his early years. Of course I’m not advocating him to start using drugs. It’s very likely the bigger factor isn’t that he’s not on drugs anymore but that he could get away with doing more out there and extreme stuff with c list nobody comic characters like animal man and doom patrol than he can with Batman, green lantern, the justice league, etc. Allstar Superman was good. The thing he’s really done recently that’s impressed me is taking over as a head editor/curator for Heavy Metal Magazine helping to reinvigorate the title.
@@MangaMattReviews I tend to agree with you, only I am actually advocating him to start using drugs again. I think drugs are very important.
The thing is: DC would never allow him or anyone to do anything really far out with their A-list characters for fear it would hurt their brand.
@@VuotoPneumaNN well. Can’t blame him. After it became established that you can be independent and successful it’s hurt mainstream comics. “Why would I give the big two my best and most interesting ideas?” I see it in interviews all the time now with up and comers doing jobber work at dc/marvel to get exposure while working on their real interesting passion work elsewhere. Except for your “company men” like Johns and Bendis. Which is how I see them as they not only handle most of the big events comics-wise but are very involved with the media-side.
I'm not sure what your comments are like but I've been watching your posts and analysis and I wanted to say I appreciate them. They've been educational and entertaining. Thank you.
You are very welcome! And thank you for taking the time to watch. That is greatly appreciated.
DC never should've resurrected Barry Allen, Oliver Queen, and Hal Jordan.
aaaahhhhhhh
I only disagree with Oliver Queen because he didn't have a memorable replacement
@@mariod1547 I understand that mindset. Personally I like Connor Hawke, but he clearly wasn't as successful a character as Wally West or Kyle Rayner
Corporate culture will always try to milk a stone. In my mind, these are still stand alone works of art. This is why I stopped buying corporate comics.
Your reviews are ALWAYS enjoyable. This one was important, as important as the 3 book series. Why DC wanted this in their canon is difficult to speculate. But what's done is done and now we can read and reread these 3 issues to glean just what John's had in mind. Thank you again for your insight and your explanation of a mini series no one needed.
Beautifully well done
I remember an episode of It's always sunny, where the female characters went through the same challenge as the male characters just a copuple of episodes prior. One of the females says "If you want them to take us seriously, why we have to copy the same thing they did?" (she didn't say it like that, but you got it).
Johnns asks himself what made this or that character a hero, and write to show their strenghts, so he writes for the character. Not for himself nor the readers. If it is good, you want more of the same. Nobody's asking johnns to be like Moore, it's late for him to try to write in that registry.
Still, he could avoid laying his hands on stories and properties he's clearly unable to handle.
@@kulturkriget I don't know if humane is the word I would use. Maybe wish fullfilment. He needs, almost everytime, bi demensional characters with a lot of background to heat, revolve and serve again in the plate (sorry if I get the grammar wrong there). The point also is, that those are not his characters neither.
I can't say if a writer is really a good author when he doesn't build a story (and characters, a new world, concepts, etc) from scratch. Until that, he is to me a 9 to 5 worker for one especific company.
In Batman #17 (the conclusion of the "The death of the family" arc), a flashback established that, after their first fight, Bruce went to visit the Joker at Arkham and revealed this true identity to the him. So...
Your opinion is correct
So Geoff Johns is the JJ Abrams of comics?
Nothing more than corporate housekeeping, damn that's a brutal review, thanks for the honesty!
"In moments of weakness, when the shadows get too close, when chaos threatens the intimate order we believe in, a smiling figure steps forward and laughs at our struggle" That's powerful, is this an original SBP quote or from somewhere?
That's all me, as far as I know. I'm not quoting or paraphrasing anyone.
Only thing of interest for me in this video was the inclusion of covers from Giffen's Justice League, I hope this is hinting to a coming video on that run.
You nailed it.
I think your right dc can't leave those stories alone. I still choose to view alan Moore's work as singular and dc's sequel's as extra content the reader can add to those stories cannon. That being said I did really like the before watchmen mini series's👍
I think the best thing about the comic is that these three Jokers appear to be the physical manifestations of the Joker's change in character throughout comics, as well as what seems like the three core parts of his personality.
So why did this miniseries take 4 years exactly?
It's the amount of time it took them to loose all of their shame.
Thank god someone else pronounces it "Fabok" and not "Fabbik"
3 Jokers was such a nothing book, it tries to be impactful and deep but fails. It’s kinda made me realize that I don’t like Johns writing at all anymore
Honestly thought Three Jokers was alright. I personally didn't know WHAT to expect from it since it was the lesser mystery of DC Rebirth at the time & with how the Batbooks are now it really feels inconsequential. I definitely tolerated it more than Batman Who Laughs that's for sure.
Great review
Oddly enough there are some things that were said in this video that match up with Paul Dini's run of Batman; some more than others but they rarely go anywhere either.
That's all Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers is. It's a way of keeping the copyright, and making a quick cash grab while DC's at it. No substance. No good storytelling. Plot holes aplenty, and really bad dialogue for good measure.
But... Jason Todd arrested before in Batman & Robin #6. It wasn't a big deal then, why would it be a big deal now?
I wasn't invested in Three Jokers but now knowing what it does, ruins The Killing Joke for me.
I agree with pretty much everything you say here. After reading through this story, Dark Knight's Metal and Doomsday Clock; I decided to take a break from modern comics. And go back and actually buy the weird comics I liked from way back when. Coincidentally, that is when I found this channel. I feel like Three Jokers and Doomsday Clock take away from their source material more than they give back.
Also I think it's crummy that DC keeps trotting out Alan Moore's work, when he doesn't want anything to do with them. At this point, I'm waiting for DC to announce a sequel to v for vendetta.
Always enjoy your well thought out takes & analysis even if I don't always agree. I think John's deserves a little more credit, at least in his Lantern run, creating all the new corps, emotional spectrum etc. The reveal of Batman knowing Jokers identity was a huge mistake as well as the family reveal, couldn't agree more but I enjoyed the story for Batgirl & Redhood, it was a nice look at their contrasting characters. Also the Jokers motivation in the story, redeeming Joe Chill, so that the Joker becomes the most important person to Batman, I thought was a nice touch. Anyway good job as always 👏
Seemed like the long way round, to state we have been given something unnecessary to sell more product.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the Joker movie
Will, you ever make a video on Invincible by Robert Kirkman?
Yeah I've been slowly putting your videos in my discord you do good work love to pick your brain about some of the comic stuff that exists out there
Thanks! And you can always DM me on Twitter if you have some questions.
@@StrangeBrainParts I'd rather do a voice chat that's why I love discord so much but thanks I might actually do send you a DM cuz it's a couple questions I wouldn't mind asking you like what's your thought on the X-Treme X-Men comics or the d&d comics that came out from DC comics way back in the day
You got it, boss
Never put the two together
But yea, DC claiming their stories
I just figured this and Doomsday clock were just Johns shitting on Alan Moore's work out of spite.
I'm sure you're aware that vandalism is a perfectly legitimate form of creativity in 2020. Great vid as always ✌️
Sometimes it’s justified
@@hopebringer2348 Perhaps. Any good examples?
@@MrChristopherMolloy Illegal protest street art, barricades, fucking up statues
@@hopebringer2348 Yes, very creative.
I find GJones work to be cold, stunted, basic & doesn't make an impact. Your narrative said it much more nicely❣️
Funny thing is 3 joker could have work if it was hugo strange trying to create other jokers to push batman to be his best self
This could have been a great message about oversaturation of joker then joker could hunt the others saying something like too many joker is worst than not enough
Didn't care for three Jokers or Doomsday Clock. All I'm going to say
Booster gold, what a chad
Eh, Snyder revealed that Joker knew Batman's identity in 2012 with Death OF the Family, SBP/Overlord. Also, in all canons, Batman has been puzzled by Joker's identity for years after their first meeting. Even in this quasi-canon story (yes, I call 3J that because this story plays loose with reveals and the looks of the characters), that Bruce has always known makes no sense. Three Jokers was teased/setup years ago while Snyder setup that Bruce could not determine Joker's identity via DNA or fingerprints and that whole Pale Man angle. And Joker's backstory isn't about canon, the more appropriate term would be truth or lie. A better context when explaining things. This story is GJ's biggest failure.
Love the art but....
I really think jason is the kid at the end thats my interpretation
A video on Paul chadwick s concrete in the future?
Id love to hear your thoughts on Batman 900 and how Chip alluded to Three Jokers
I read the comic and I gotta say, it's a good story when you don't look into it too much, i havent read the killing joke myself, but I have heard of the origin of the joker it made, personally i think of it as an ok mystery book with a somewhat shocking ending, I didn't expect a masterpiece, I just expected a good read.
It is NOT an origin story. Killing Joke is more a focused look at Batman and Joker. Not an origin story
I love Geoff Johns' writing. I disagree with your characterizations of his work. He has reset many franchises and allowed them to grow. If you compare his Green Lantern mythos to others, it is unmatched. Same for Hawkman and Flash. Johns vs Grant Morrison on GL is no contest, IMO. Johns takes it all the way. His impact will be as long lasting as Moore's, again IMO.
That said, his approach is cinematic (and admittedly commercial) rather than literary, which Alan Moore's specialty. Moore is clearly the superior CREATOR. The basis of the 3 Jokers Story is not the Joker(s) him/them self/selves, rather the effect of trauma on his victims, viewed through Batgirl and Red Hood, The forgivess/redemption arc, viewed through Joe Chill. Its an emotional story. Those are Johns specialties and where he beats Moore. All of Moore's characters lack a certain warmth that makes you care about them. Moore beats Johns in imagination.
That said, knowing the Joker's true identity was a WTF moment, especially since the whole question was kicked off by Batman asking the Mobius chair the Joker's real name. That was dumb.
Great video as always. You always give me tons to think about. Thanks Overlord!
Great comment!
@@kulturkriget what? Moore doesn't make you care about his characters?? Bullshit. Moore's work is full of incredibly touching, introspective, deep character moments, from Halo Jones to Swamp Thing to V For Vendetta to Promethea. That statement MIGHT be true if you've only read Watchmen, but he's wrote a fuckton of other material.
@@kulturkriget Have you read V For Vendetta?
@@kulturkriget It was just an example. In that book the main character (Evey) isn't by any means "cold" and it makes you want to care about her. That's true for most of Moore's work. You can't base a statement on an Author's work on just a tiny portion of his output.
I personally prefer to think of the Joker as an inevitable force of nature. More akin to Matt wagners the Grendel.
In my own personal head canon, basically everyone in Gotham knows Bruce Wayne is Batman (come on, who else could it be?) but they let him get it away with because he and his corporations and foundations are the only thing keeping the city from turning into Detroit.
This is the single greatest head canon I have heard in years. I thank you, sir. I immediately thought of the time Dusty Rhodes was forced to leave a promotion only to show up in a mask. Now Bruce Wayne sounds like Dusty Rhodes in my head canon.
@@elsantodelsol Mid-South Wrestling once did that with the Junkyard Dog: he came back in a mask as"Stagger Lee". I didn't know that had happened elsewhere. But it's a good gimmick, I'm sure there must be other cases.
@Darth Pancake Studios Well, it's not bulletproof, I admit. I should also admit I haven't read an actual Batman story since Jason Todd was still dead, so my views could be years and reboots out of continuity.
@@kulturkriget That's a good observation. The Wayne family is basically Gotham aristocracy, right?
I enjoyed his batman earth 1 books & his early green lantern but he really hit or miss with me, but am I the only one who thinks killing joke is a lil overrated ? I thought it was more of the shock of what happens that sticks with people (hated the ending, batman don’t laugh) but again alan Moore can do no wrong for some people, I did enjoy his swamp thing & League books though
Corporate house cleaning.
Before I BLEED OUT any cash on the miserable excuse for entertainment DC is anymore,
I damn well want some spoiler alert or three.
Even The Killing Joke didn't treat itself as canon. It's the namesake of the "multiple-choice past" trope. It was an open invitation for other writers to make up more possible backstories for the Joker. Nobody ever did, because the cult of Alan Moore does a disservice to comics culture at every turn.
Wasn't the reveal that batman and joker know each other's names happaned in death of the family and endgame?
Tynion's run is far more fun and interesting than the three jokers. Thanks for mentioning that their identities don't matter. Idc who the joker is, I care that joker IS.
Fair.
this just makes me have more joker fatigue.
It is DC Comics's killing joke now. Hahaha.
I have always thought Johns was a hack writer. A good hack, don't get me wrong, but he has never shown an original idea. All of his great work is built on top of others. So what is next, bring vanishing point back to the universe? Your rant was atypical but I do enjoy hearing your views
I don't disagree. I think I used different words to politely say the same thing. :)
Johns aping Moore only highlights his deficiency as a writer
At least the artwork is pretty good looking
It was ok but issue 3 messed it all up
I paid cash for the first two chapters. Thankfully, spoilers obliged me from paying for the third. I love Geoff but this was the epitome of miscalculation. The story basically adds up to nothing. I don't even like the known killer of the Waynes anyway. It was one of the few Post 86 changes I liked. This is one of the few moments where DC copying Marvel doesn't work in its own way. This is a poor man's Wolverine: Origin.
I felt the first two acts of the story were trying to lead the character of Red Hood to a new and interesting place. Then it tacked on some Batman continuity and Alan Moore material and lost any coherence.
@Darth Pancake Studios The only issue I had with that is how they always try to pair batgirl off with members of the Bat Family just because she's the only girl.
@Darth Pancake Studios My read on that was that he wanted to be accepted and to try to be normal. I appreciate Batgirl didn't have the time for it though. Red Hood was willing to give being Red Hood because he doesn't want to be Red Hood. It sort of had nothing to do with Batgirl, which brings it back around to why pair them off?
@Darth Pancake Studios I think it meant he doesn't like what he is. I wouldn't think he does, he's a murderer in a serial killer's old outfit.
@Darth Pancake Studios In Under the Red Hood at least he's clearly miserable and suicidal. Maybe that's changed.
Didn't Joker know that Batman was Bruce Wayne back in "Death of the Family"?
DC doesn't really have a continuity at this point
It was revealed that he didn’t
.....well, that certainly clears it up beyond doubt.
Another modern example of how to improve on something by making it worse.
I liked the artwork. It's biggest problem is that it looks like Brian Bolland, just not as good.
Is anyone else sick of the Joker? I'm tired of him killing people and never getting killed on return because of Batman's "no-kill policy". It's just annoying is all.
never ! I only read comics for joker
Great job man. Never liked Geoff myself anyway.
I cant really find myself enjoying Three Jokers. It also did the crime of ignoring Morrison's explanation for his changing attitudes as supersanity, which I preferred. Having it be 3 different Jokers just cheapens the character.
Best comic in 2020. Will respectfully disagree with your trashing of the books. Respect to your admitting bias against it going in.
I agree that it was unneccesary but I enjoyed it nonetheless.
At least Jason Todd’s costume was cool.
A complete waste and follow up to batman in the moebius chair. Also batman not realizing there are 3 different jokers? The greatest detective in dc? Really?
When was your last re read of Killing Joke? It is over wrought. It is meandering. It doesn't age well. 3 Jokers is weak, but Killing Joke is not some sacred unassailable master work. Morrison disowned the story and all of his personal criticism are valid. In my opinion. I enjoy your work.
Soo my whole take from this is your stuck in the Alan Moore
I really hate to be.... "That guy"..... But the reveal that Joker knows who Batman is has been around since 2013 with Scott Snyder's "Death of the family"
Technically yes but actually no
Later in the comic bit we see his bat-computer having joker identity as unknown
But you’re right to say that he play around with the idea first
@@mcpics4448 This is Joker knowing who Batman is. Not Batman knowing who Joker is.
@Darth Pancake Studios in fairness, he did literally shout "I know who you are!!!" at one point. And he did go after Alfred which would back that up. Like I see no reason to doubt he did know
@Darth Pancake Studios True the diary was empty, but at the end, Batman tells Alfred how he went to visit Joker in Arkham as Bruce Wayne and confronted him about the card. Joker didn't care then. Kinda makes more sense that he always knew instead of finding out who Batman is randomly off screen
@Darth Pancake Studios Yeah, that ending really did showcase Snyder's weaknesses as a writer
Yeah 😂
The artwork for both 3 Jokers and Doomsday Clock are must s e but both stories felt incomplete and ultimately unfulfilling.