One of the greatest pulls to Classic for me was there exists a certain type of ... prestige of ingame rewards. You earned it. You put in the time, dedication, etc. When I'm on my horde rogue and I ambush an alliance with the Winterspring frostsaber, I always give them a /salute. It's a helluva grind. Or if I see someone in Stormwind with Field Marshal's Battlegear.. you know, I give them a /nod. These are things with an unique look - and they took some effort to obtain. Ingame store just cheapens that, imo and it de-incentivizes ActiBlizz from actually putting in effort on ingame rewards. Just put the cool, unique looking things in the shop and the gulls will swipe their credit card non-stop.
Whether we like it or not, the reality is that these types of digital goods make insane amounts of money for Blizzard. This is why Blizzard has even mentioned that subscription numbers aren't there current benchmark for success of the game. It would seem recurrent spending for digital goods is their new benchmark.
I'd prefer there not to be new cash shop items in tbc, but idk how we can do anything to stop blizz from cashing in on the people who will gladly pay :P
We can't. We can't handhold Blizzard in each and every contentious situation. If they don't understand, or care to understand what made the old game work, they simply don't. And either weak-minded people, or people who don't care at all about the integrity of the game, will enable that mindset. I think that's just how it is and we can only hope that enough of what made the game great remains after all is done. (Or that they will learn and change.)
Most people are in the same boat as you, and I will probably get there too. Though, for now, I still have the energy to kick up a fuss and encourage people to vote with their wallets.
You can stop playing the game, punish them by hurting their consistent stream of revenue when they try to take more cookies out of the jar Also the community as a whole can humiliate players who spend IRL money on in-game features/content/items
You voice your opinion and do what I do and quit. I can't help but think that instead of wasting time putting this shit we didn't want into TBC, they could have used the resources to make Shadowlands not suck. -edit, I posted this before listening to the whole video, so basically everything the video said.
If you dont like a cash shop, dont buy anything from it. I really dont understand how someone else having a cash shop mount effects your experience in any way.
I don't like, I don't use it, and if you seriously don't understand how then I highly suggest watching the last 3 minutes of my video again where I explicitly state why.
@@ZerbraxiWoW the wish for a classic plus style addition, or if they werent using cash shops they would for some reason add a quest to get the items isnt based in reality. Mount collecting has been a huge thing in the game,specially since wrath. Every expac they add tons of new mounts for you to get your dopamine from collecting.Shadowlands alone added 84 mounts. Most store mounts are in no way lore frendly, and wouldn't exist as an in game collectable. Nothing is being taken away from you because store mounts exist.
@@reptiliancow I can't find how Lore friendliness would have an effect here. Just to name a few, Steamscale Incinerator, Imperial Quilen, Enchanted Fey Dragon, Heart of the Aspects, Sylverian Dreamer, Vulpine Familiar, Mystic Runsaber, all of those immediately have some easy connection you can make to World of Warcraft based on their aesthetic and name alone. Heck, the Vulpine Familiar model literally exists in Shadowlands as a mob and the Fey Dragon also now has more lore significance because of Shadowlands. Also, the Warcraft universe is bonkers. There are aliens invading, literal dieties involved, sci-fi elements, the original gnomes are junkyard aesthetic, WoW is so vast that quite literally anything could be made into the lore, that's the beauty of Warcraft.
Is it really the consumers fault when it’s the companies that put us in these positions? Either way, love your perspective. Always so level headed and based in good faith. You are a smart dude
You vote with your dollars in this instance. Though it gets harder and harder when companies see this stuff works for monetization and now everyone does it. If no one paid, it wouldn’t happen. If no one bought gold we would not have gold farmers, but there are tons who buy gold then go to gDKPs to buy gear, and we support them by going as “carries.” If we support the activity as a community, we have to expect there will be more of it.
It's not customer's alone at fault, though if a product isn't purchased then it dies. The fact many dislike something and then buy it anyway sends a super mixed message to the publisher and the developer. We need to vote with our wallets more than we need to complain.
I haven't commented on any video, even the very best ones, in forever. This one, however, deserves everyone's attention. That is the best explanation and argument against cash shops/microtransactions I have ever heard. Brilliantly articulated, well done.
Thank you. It's a conversation I've had countless times over many games. There is totally a good way to handle microtransactions and small dlc content in games. I don't think it works with WoW's current model, and I think their implementation of those store fronts provides no content to the player, even those who happily purchase the items.
FACTS. They need to remove AoE cap as well. They should focus on making all the classes in the game have their own awesome niche capabilities instead of trying to ruin an awesome part of WoW. (AoE, Boosting IN GAME, etc) They could use their time and money making the game and classes within the game better instead of throwing a nerf (THAT DOESNT EVEN STOP AOE BOOSTING) at a class because its the easiest solution.....
So to be fair the AOE cap that they've implemented did exist in Patch 2.2. I did a whole video about it, so it existing in Classic TBC isn't a surprise. However, the fact that the purpose of the AoE cap to stop boosting, which is doesn't seem to have done, and then Blizzard adding their own boost, well, for those who might not have played TBC it looks a bit suspicious. I don't think they're correlated though. In game class changes for Classic TBC though, that's a larger discussion I'm hoping to touch on at some point soon.
Solid points. I don't understand why people aren't more outraged by the introduction of these bonuses to the deluxe edition. It for me, Is a look into the future of "classic". I hope I'm wrong but it seems like the same path they've taken before with little consideration to what the core of their player base actually desire.
This was mostly the reason why I made the video. We still don't have solid evidence from Blizzard themselves that a cash shop will be introduced to the game like retail, but this sets up the possibility of one. Patch 3.2 introducing the cash shop was something many of us thought was just a minipet charity drive. I've learned my lesson and I'm being way more cautious and skeptical this time around.
@@ZerbraxiWoW This is mainly what drives me to disagree with the general sentiment of the video; cash shops are bad, I surely do agree, but every single WoW expansion has had a CE, even before the introduction of the cash shop. For the same reasons, I frankly think *not* expecting a CE is rather gullible. Yes, this time around the game itself is free, but the CE was always just a "pay additional real-life money for extra stuff (including in-game stuff)"-purchase. Nothing changed. Yes, we have seen like what it looks like when Pandora's box is wide open - and it ain't pretty - but succombing to the slippery slope fallacy just yet seems like an overreaction. And I say this as someone who doesn't care to buy these kind of things, ever. If there is no achievement behind them, they have no inherent value or cool-factor, if you will, to me. On that same note I don't buy the "But new store mounts devalue other achievements!?" narrative. Heck no, they don't. Knowing that the mount is just a credit card swipe away makes it pretty lame. Whereas Raven Lord or Midnight will forever be straight FIRE!
@@mikkel9840 I didn't expect a TBC CE because Classic WoW didn't have one despite Vanilla having a CE. My expectation wasn't based on being gullible, it was based on precedent. Also, I never claimed that store mounts devalue the achievements or accomplishments of others. I would only ever claim that statement on a specific item if it was some sort of replicative reproduction of an in-game item that did have something special attached to it. In this case they don't. I understand your sentiment here, but to claim my worries of a cash shop are a slipper slope fallacy is rather odd. We've quite literally seen this happen already. You even said yourself that "we have seen like what it looks like when Pandora's box is wide open." I by no means attempted to be dramatic or a doomsayer in this video. I simply painted what we've experienced and my concerns for what I think this type of model in WoW isn't beneficial.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Sorry, based on your response I believe I have come off as hostile, and this was not at all the intention. Rest assured I love you to death and spread your name on the big interwebs every chance I get! For the record though, regarding the devaluation of other achievements, I know you did not address it in the video (and therefore, nor did I claim you said so either). It was more a nod toward this argument as a general one, because it's very often tossed around in this discussion - granted, namely so on reddit. I was merely trying to "expand the discussion", if you will, frankly because I was curious on your stance in this matter - by no means was it my attention to shove it down your throat. I agree though that I'm also closing in on the slippery slope as an *argument* (as opposed to a fallacy) myself. However, the boost was a much bigger factor in that process than the CE is. While I kind of did expect a CE (and I think this is a fairly 'basic' one at that), I must say I was more blindsided by the boost. Again, apologies for the possible harsh tone! Keep up the amazing work!
@@mikkel9840 Nah it's all good. I really appreciate discussing this type of thing. It affects all of us to some extent and it's always fascinating hearing others opinions. I also have a tendency sometimes when discussing things to come off cold so my response could've just been that. I didn't take what you said as hostile or aggressive at all.
I saw a video with Asmongold talking about his concerns on this topic, "MAN DOOOD MAN DOOD FUCK THIS MANDOOD" pretty much sums it up. Anyway, as always, you're punching us in the face with straight facts. I'm one of the guys growing up with vanilla back in 2004 as a teen and seeing these changes such as store mount really makes me sick. We just have to suck up the fact that these new generations of snowflakes have been growing up with praticipating medals and no longer see a reason to WIN. Keep en coming my man!
In terms of monetization I do feel bad that many younger player especially are normalized to this type of practice. It's not cool and I'll happily stick up for the customer's best interest, even the people who are happy to throw that away.
Lol generation of snowflakes? Seems to me that these “snowflakes” aren’t the ones crying about something that isn’t even required in a game. Grown adults crying about a video game is the definition of “snowflake”.
I had never considered that the cash shop was actually giving giving blizzard the excuse to release an item with no tie to the content for a fee. I had always separated the cash shop items from the actual game in my mind cause I would never buy any of the cash shop items. But considering that blizzard is actually stealing potential content away from players that ties these items to the game is a hell of take. I agree wholeheartedly.
This has always been the core of the argument even going back to the Horse Armor DLC in Oblivion. Many companies paint the in game experience and the cash shop separately because once people realize they are losing content for more money they'll be less likely to purchase. I don't think their original motives for a shop were malicious, but it's definitely not good value for the customer and we should be vocal about that.
One concern I also have is that this gives people an epic mount which will come with the riding skill, so if you get this mount on a char that doesn't have one yet, it's quite a bit of gold savings. So it is defo not just a cosmetic. It's over 600g of ingame value, too. Honestly by now I just hope we don't get wow token before wotlk. Clearly Actiblizz is ready to make profit at any cost and they don't care about making the game worse for it at all.
Unfortunately this practice is far more reaching than WoW, it's an industry standard monetization model now. By no means does it excuse the practice, but it's also because players continue to buy into this type of model that it exists. The most powerful tool a customer has is their wallet.
When you look at the forum you see all these kiddos just wanting to throw their money at blizzard and defending the company at any cost. Mostly because they dont get why older people love classic but hate retail. People that want transmogs and bettle pets in classic. Its fucking crazy
For people who are actual kiddos, I tend to not give them too much flack. Or, I should say I tend to approach that conversation a bit differently. For a lot of younger people this is the only monetization in gaming that they've ever known so it's completely normalized to them. DLC and Microtransactions aren't a problem on their own, but their laziness of implementation is laughable today. I'm not against them entirely. For example, when Mass Effect introduces a new character it's not just a new party member. There's a whole new set of missions to unlock them then can be several hours worth of content. There's entire voice lines, dialogue, story changes, etc. That's how you deliver a "new character" while also delivering content to the player. Except that Day 1 DLC for Mass Effect 3. That character had far too much story significance to be allowed to be DLC lol.
Hey Zerbraxi , another great video . I'd like to say something that I've said on other posts but no content maker seems interested in talking about , but I really think that someone should pick this up and make a video about it . Classic servers with a cash shop and classic servers without a cash shop ( for original classic , TBC classic and LK classic ) . Some people want to cash shops ( mostly so they can buy gold legitimately ) and others want the entire experience to be one that comes strictly from their own efforts in game . Blizzard can do this without much effort and make both sides happy . Personally I'm in the no cash shop camp , but I have no bone to pick with people that would like to have a cash shop . I'm not sure why no content maker or streamer hasn't picked up this subject . Maybe it's because they are too entrenched in what they want . Imagine if there was the option of cash shop servers and no cash shop servers . Wouldn't this help the no cash shop players sleep better at night and make Blizzard some extra profit ? It really could be a win for all and prolong the gamers enjoyment of the game and keep them subbed up . Maybe make a video about this and include a pole . You might find a lot of other content providers pick up on your video and pole . This would surely help your channel grow .
This is definitely an interesting idea. I think it could go even further beyond just a cash shop but other types of changes as well. I wonder if there's precedence from other games that have done this or not as well. I'll definitely consider this.
@@ZerbraxiWoW To be fair, not everyone has the time to complete all end-game content. I've always lagged behind before the next expansion dropped, so spending a few dollars for a sweet mount isn't so bad. Ofcourse it's not as rewarding, but at least it's nice to have the option
It’s not us Zerbraxi. It’s the vocal minority and also instant gratification retail players who want this crap in classic. Also, I believe blizzard just doesn’t care. They think the cash shop is great. What they don’t realize is if they’d focus on making a good game they’d still have 12 million subs and wouldn’t need the cash shop. People don’t even play retail expansions for more than a month after release anymore.
That totally might not have 12 million subs still but I get your point lol. The other thing I've thought of is that it might not just be that Blizzard is being "malicious" or "apathetic". This type of monetization has become an industry standard and they seem to just be replicating it. I still don't like it either way though.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Which would make blizzard stand out even more if they went away from the industry standard. I think players across all games hate that its the standard. Also, imagine if they still had 12m subs AND a cash shop. I know getting back to 12m is a stretch. I intentionally used that number to make a point. Imagine if they made a game good enough that they still had millions of subs more than they do now and they had the cash shop. They'd be rolling in the dough. If the game was good I wouldn't care as much about the cash shop. I don't play retail. I haven't since they announced Classic. Great content btw. Always look forward to new Zerbraxi content.
There is actually another thing to consider. Development costs nowadays are higher and everything associated with it. Of course it's easy to shit on Activision for triple dipping (or quadruple dipping - don't forget the Bliizard tokens lol), but nobody ever considers the fact that they have never increased the monthly fee. Players like to complain about the item shop, but I can guarantee they would go apeshit if Blizzard increased the monthly fee to 20 dollars. I would actually gladly the 20 bucks if they got rid of the item shop and hired some decent game designers.
2:17 "The purpose of the subscription model is to ensure that new content is developed regularly for the players." Or is it? Keeping MMO-scale server infrastructure running 24/7 isn't cheap. I'd say the subscription model is to remove server costs from the equation, likely with some profit margin on top. Development of new content, from my perspective, is funded by releases. So the sales of an expansion (in retail) pays for its pre- & post-release development, like traditional release models. F2P MMOs bank on microtransactions making up those server and development costs instead. Or in the case of retail wow, microtransactions fund fat bonuses for the executives and investor payouts, at the expense of everyone else. That's the way I see it anyway. Does this matter to the argument? Probably not.
There was an interesting interview about the purpose of a subscription fee with Jeff Strain, one of the founders of ArenaNet who made the original Guild Wars and now Guild Wars 2. In that interview when asked about why Guild Wars 1 doesn't have a sub fee but instead more frequent expansions he said the following: "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true - you know it, and they know it. Gamers may buy the argument that your MMO requires a subscription fee, if you can tell them what they are getting for their money. " - Jeff Strain 2007 It's also important to note that much of the original ANet team also came from Blizzard directly from the early WoW development, not like Guild Wars devs need any further credentials lol. As someone who also works with server maintenance as part of my profession, maintenance costs exist, but their actual cost to run are typically grossly overstated by the industry.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Interesting, do you know how different the landscape is from 2007 to now? Like now that it's all cloud, since Blizz still manages all of it themselves (though I think hosted by AT&T?), cheaper or more expensive? I know cloud is often touted as being cheaper on Pay-As-You-Go models compared to on-premises servers - though to my understanding, a large draw is also just the robustness and flexibility of the infrastructure itself - but if all of that cloud backend is dedicated to and managed by the company anyway? Or maybe it's so cheap now and that's why so little information exists on Blizzard's backend, hah.
@@RaawHax Unfortunately there's no way that I'd be able to speak for Blizzard specifically here, but I'd be genuinely surprised if their data centers and moves over to cloud and virtualization increased their overall costs. For the environment I work in we have moved almost everything cloud based and cost is a major factor to why and we continue moving on-prem environments to cloud every year and we continue to reap rewards each time. There are some studies out there that claim cloud based services actually increase overall cost, but that seems like bad administration over the backend more than anything.
Just put in the damn cash shop. They are gonna do it regardless..... they cherry got popped when the 58 boost was announced, what’s the difference between a cash shop and %60 buying gold illicitly? My point exactly. Put in the shop
The difference is that one of those is less content for more money for the players on average. The other is against TOS. Both are bad. Why would I want something bad? It's totally possible to accept that something is going to happen while still disagreeing with it.
This is by far, the best take on the situation. I can go further and say that overpriced "services" are the future for MMOs. I see that you played or know a few things about other MMOs, so you get what i'm saying. If Activision could, they would transform WoW on those Korean MMOs where you need to pay to walk. They know that the clone price will kill Vanilla, but they really don't care if they can cash out as much as possible. As i as say, we players opened the box of microtransactions, now we will face the consequences. One easy example i can give you is ESO: i love the game, i find no problem paying the sub but the cash shop is shit.
The only cash shop I've had the least amount of problem with is Guild Wars 2 because there is no sub fee. However, even in GW2 there are some pretty damn expensive items and arguably too much is in the shop vs in game still.
I have never bought anything from blizzards store, if i can't get it through playing the game im paying a subscription for then it doesn't exist in my eyes I think it's a shitty practice tho since they do look great.
Blizzard have been constantly reminded a good chunk of players do not like this and do not like the direction of the retail game. They just ignored this and went for even more quick grabs with the cash shop. After more than a decade they finalize realize that the players base that was alienated by the current state of the game could actually be brought back. Despite them simply not believing (you think you do, but you don't). So what's next? How can we keep this newly found player base? Of course with a short term, quick money grab. We need the next quarter to be the best possible, even if this means starting the exodus of players. So no, i don't believe even voting with the wallet, quitting the game, will make them understand the problem. I will not buy the mount, I will not buy anything from the cash shop, but I have zero faith in Blizzard ability to decide what is best long term for the game.
Classic WoW in so many ways bought Blizzard some insane levels of good will. It is very surprising to see them earn more good will with their feelings on TBC only to then poke the community with knowingly poorly received services. Not sure if their disconnected or if they know the ROI on this type of move is worth the "loyalty withdrawal" as Mike Morhaime used to say.
I think the last statement is the most poignant. The reason the cashshop is so developed in modern WoW, is because people buy those items, and they buy them in large amounts. Therefore, the cashshop makes a large chunck of money for Blizzard. For extremely minimal effort, Blizzard is making a huge return on investment with these cosmetic items. Why wouldn't they do it? If the players collectively abstain from the cashshop, and don't buy these items, the cashshop would quickly cease to exist. Same premise for boosting.
Agreed. Some people seemed to get the wrong idea from that conclusion and think I was just outright blaming the customers. In reality, a lot of people don't realize the buying power they actually have to influence the game, both good and bad. We should be knowledgeable of that power and exercise it as we see fit.
@@Rockmaster867 0:22 , I opened with that this isn't confirmed yet. I try to be careful with my words because I hate giving misinformation if I can avoid it.
I'm not sure we should say that *we* , as the classic community, should be to blame if a minority of whales buy the mount ~ (a number we'll never have obviously) There will always be people buying what Blizzard put in store, even during vanilla, despite all the fuss about a cash shop, I'm pretty sure numbers would have barely moved if they introduced it right away. It's mostly their greed that put us in this situation in the first place, like always. It's pointless to remind everyone that when you give them a finger Activision surely aims to eat your whole arm later down the line...
I tend to say "we" a lot when talking about this types of things. I have this team oriented mindset even when it's separate teams. Something I do need to work on, or at least be more specific with.
A lot of good points I honestly hadn’t thought of. My issue with this has nothing to do with the mount and is just around how beneficial the dark portal toy will be. For non-mages having a second hearthstone (dark portal toy) is a big enough quality of life change I would buy the deluxe edition for that if it’s not available any other way
This is a gameplay interaction I really did want to touch on, however I didn't because I think even the mounts and skins have negative impact on the game by not being tied to in-game content in some manner.
I don't really get the outrage of a game having a cash shop. Unfortunately, a lot of popular games have cosmetics that you can buy. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Sure it would be great if they added these cosmetics as in game rewards, but the truth is... most casual players don't want to put the work in to get those rewards anyway. Ultimately, I feel that if Blizzard/Activision were smart, they'd do both. Have a cash shop AND have new in game quest rewards (mounts/pets). That way its win-win. Doesn't seem that difficult, but of course the odds of that ever happening are very slim.
I think your proposal is a decent compromise and I'd accept it VS what we have now. Unfortunately I don't think the modern standard of games having these shops is good enough of a reason to accept them. Purchases should be in game content because that's where the core value of games comes from. I think the industry has done a whole lot of work getting people to accept these business models and that's a bit of a shame to me when customers should expect more.
I LOVE THE CASH SHOP ....... all the salty nerd tears taste so good . im fucking loving the man-child meltdowns over cosmetic skins . muh classic integrity .
@@ZerbraxiWoW ??? dude you can't tell me you have not seen the meltdowns on the forums or on reddit over cosmetics ( and boost ) are end of the world lvls from the classic community . its pathetic to get mad over what other ppl have in there bags . the "but you didnt earn it" argument is school elementary levels that honestly ppl should have gotten over it . the avg age of a classic player is what 30-40 year olds . you as an adult an the members of the classic community need to grow up a bit over the existence of pixels that ppl got with money your enjoyment of the game is not lesser because Billy got a cash shop mount or boost. if it's such a game breaking issue that ppl are in a frenzy about it maybe it's time for those ppl to move on to other games.
@@ZerbraxiWoW TBC had more cosmetics than the next 3 expansions combined th-cam.com/video/NpYr20fregg/w-d-xo.html its weird that all the anti cosmetic and boost video never fucking mention that lil detail of the original tbc .
@@crackthecorn The argument is not "but you didn't earn it" the argument is "this should be in game content". That second point is beneficial to the customer to every degree. I'm not sure how age is a factor in this discussion, but since you brought it up then people in their 30's and 40's have a better grasp of money than they did 15 years ago. Ideally they would understand their buying power as customers and their ability to vote with their wallet. They hopefully also know how business practices that don't yield benefits to them can seem appealing with no value in return. Those points might be "elementary" as you pointed out, but that's because they are. They are fundamental consumer level issues that aren't complicated and are taught at a Freshman level economics class. Hence why I'll always be surprised that people will support a company in this way when they could, and should, expect more. This conversation always gets so twisted and devolves into this hyperbolic defense that I, an others, are in some way attacking "Billy" and his pixels. No, I dislike the monetization model in a product that I pay for. I view this separate monetization model as a net negative to the experience of the game when there could be more content in this title as a response to those mounts, pets, etc being in game. That would provide a net positive amount of content for everyone playing including those with disposable income and those without. This has literally NOTHING to do with Billy having pixels in his bag and entirely that the business model yields a negative result to the amount of content in game vs the money spent. I've not talked about the TCG and Collectors Edition cosmetics for TBC because that could be its very own topic. They way TCG rewards integrate with the game is very different than the Cash Shop. However, I think it's different, not good. I'm not sure how mentioning that detail would actually benefit your argument or defense honestly. People don't like something, and if it's already happened or not doesn't change whether they dislike it.
1. RIP Total Biscuit, loved watching his E3 snarkathons every year. 2. I would be happy if there was no boost and no mount bundle, however since that isnt going to be the case, im likely to buy one or both of those, so i guess im part of the problem
1. His Snarkathon's were awesome. He was a real legend who was constantly trying to make sure customers were getting value for their money. 2. LOL, I'm not the type of person who would call you out or anything. I get your mindset on that matter as I also feel that to an extent. It's hard to put in the effort to fight against something you know is inevitable.
LOL that might be a bit dramatic but I understand the frustration leading to that thought. The Gold Selling is an active detriment to the game. The fact Blizzard hasn't done more is surprising and they really need to step up their game in this regard.
So to be fair I purposely set the preface for this video that we don't know if there's a full cash shop or not. This is far more a discussion piece as to if these things lead to one then what implications come with that. My original two questions set that up because there's a chance this is the only bit of it in game. I still wouldn't like it, but it's not equal to a full cash shop. If a cash shop does exist because of this, and there's precedence for that, then that's where the last half of my video comes into play.
The next point, I think people hate ingame shops (as with me), are mostly people who dont play the modern wow expansiones and ended their WoW gaming in TBc or Wratch, and see how the game just changed into a collectible mount/pet store, increasing the FOMO effect and pretty much just blatantly going with todays norm to implement microtransactions everywhere to squeeze out more money.
A lot of the practices behind these microtransactions and shops are about principles like FOMO and other effects. However, these only work as long as the illusion is still in effect. Once people realize the façade then we tend to realize how manipulative the practice is or the lack of value it provides.
I was thinking playing classic tbc because it's interesting.. but not when they add toys and shop items to the game.. boost and deluxe edition mount was testing limits, but now i'm sure i will not play tbc at all
So to be fair we don't have proof there will be an in game cash shop beyond these rewards. The premise I set in the video is that we don't know if there will be, but this practice can very easily, hypothetically lead to it. What happens if it does? That's my main argument.
@@witnessforchrist7778 If mounts are a reward for in game activities and then suddenly they don't exist because instead they're purchased for real life money, then yes, the game is losing potential gameplay activities. There's a really interesting video on this topic from Jim Sterling about the "It's Just Cosmetic" argument. I used to be in that same boat but his video, and many other arguments even from developers themselves have shown just how much a game can lose content wise to these types of microtransactions. Again, microtransactions and cash shops aren't bad inherently, but their current implementation in many games, WoW included, yields nothing but lost content for more money.
Unfortunately most Private Servers have this model. It's one of many reasons I don't play them. However, ya, I'm also not happy about this cash shop either. Maybe you're referring to Nostalrius which did not have a cash shop.
honestly i dont care if they introduce new mounts and toys,bcs it doesnt affect me but i am 100% against character boost and wow tokens,bcs it drasticly changes the meta
If those items are sold then tokens and boosts are on the table as well. When you say something doesn't affect you then you ignore that it can create a domino effect and harm you.
I get your point, but I actually think they all affect you. There's a great video by Jim Sterling about the "It's Just Cosmetic" argument that actually shifted my own view on why I was mostly apathetic to their existence and now a bit more solidly against them.
When they said they were gonna add a instant level boost, I decided not to play TBC Classic. Have any new TBC servers opened that dont have anything ghey?
Very true. This is why I didn't try and paint this as a doom and gloom video. While it's something I very much dislike, it won't ruin the game. I think it makes TBC worse, not bad.
Seriously, what is the point of even putting time into a game for cool looking gear/rewards when the coolest looking ones are bought with money. Its the total opposite of what an RPG came should be.
I wonder why Divinity Original Sin 2 didn't have an in-game cash shop with a bunch of transmog and mounts. Perhaps it's because all of the cool stuff they wanted to give to you can be earned in game because that's the point of a video game.
@@ZerbraxiWoW yeah. As much as i dislike these paid items. Capitalism dictates that they’ll pay attention to the game, if it’s profitable. So players can force change with their wallets. Which is someone good. Could be extreme though
6:40 I wish I could share in this sentiment, but while perhaps you and I understand where this road leads and the perverse incentive such purchases give Blizzard, there are enough whales in the ocean who are ignorant enough, or fiscally irresponsible enough to buy in. And at that point it wont matter if both you and I leave in frustration because that one whale is willing to pay three times as much for half the content and quality.
While I'm very cynical about many things there's this optimist in me that hasn't died yet. That piece of me might be on life support, but it's not dead yet lol.
If you don’t buy it on principle then don’t. I start thinking of what azmon said about this topic. We are like loading page activists. Blizz knows they have dedicated fans to the game. That luv will spill over into their wallet.
Voting with our wallets is the best form of expression. I know a lot of people have grown apathetic to this problem, I just haven't lost the energy yet so I'm still trying to move in this uphill battle.
Same pointless argument. Not intending to be offense. You can come up with whatever logic you want but in the end i still think the same as i did. It doesnt matter. I have no intention of ever buying anything from a cash shop. I also do not care if other people do biy stuff. As long as the cash shop items do not affect the gameplay. I mean combat and abilities, then i dont have any problem at all with them. In other words, when i an fighting mobs from a quest, dungeon, raid and someone has a cash shop pet or tabard or whatever other non gameplay affecting item, i dont mimd at all. In fact, good for them.
I completely get your argument, and it's one I had for quite a while. However, I've realized how much people play the game for things like mounts, skins, etc, and to have that removed from in game and locked behind the cash shop is a disservice to that gameplay. In the end it does affect gameplay, just not perhaps your own in the definition you've described. However for many this is potential content they are losing out on with the content they enjoy playing.
I'll be honest with you... I rather they add a cash shop to TBC then they trying to make "new content" for a 13 yr old game... I don't wanna see the old games tainted by new, goofy content... i can already imagine the world quests they would add to TBC... No thanks man... And if they gonna invest resources for new content. let that be for retail... not for a ghost of the past that people cling desperately to try and relive some of their childhood...
I think this operates under the false premise that re-releases such as Classic and other games are "to relive some of their childhood." Classic is so different from retail in design philosophy and nostalgia is but only a small reason someone continues to play for 2 years of classic. I think new content under the original design philosophy could still be an interesting endeavor, but it's not something I'm too passionate about. Overall I'm for more passionate about the negative consequences of the shop.
While I agree that a cash shop for WoW is unhealthy for the game for many of the reasons you do, I also think you are vastly overemphasizing the content that is 'lost' as a result of it existing. Without a cash shop, there would just be fewer mounts/minions/toys in the game period, simply as a result of the work involved to deliver a full 'experience' compared to plopping an object in the store. Did we lose access to something through gameplay by virtue of the cash shop? Probably. Would we have even noticed or cared if the cash shop didn't exist? I have my doubts.
That's an interesting perspective. Would there be less overall? Ya I think you're right that there would be. Obviously this devolves into a Quality vs Quantity argument which is insanely subjective and also a bit nuanced. In terms of this discussion I lean on quality, but I get the point you're making. We might not have noticed the problem but the thing is we do now. I think not knowing the lack of content existing for a certain reason is a matter of ignorance, but when the symptoms to a problem are open and exposed we can't just ignore it. Perhaps that's tech side of my brain thinking though lol
What I always find interesting, and clearly not what you're saying here, but it's fascinating that people use the "Blizzard is a company" argument all the time to dismiss this type of practice. Business is FAR FAR more than "making money". It's about cultivating brand loyalty, good will, long term investments, short term investments, all of which are not necessarily raw money deals at the time.
It does not. Thankfully we don't live a world so hyperbolic where the only options are to love something unconditionally or drop engagement with it entirely. I'm glad I can love something while also disagreeing about certain elements of it because nuance is important.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Yeah OK mate. Or.. you've built a channel around wow content and ur unwilling to flush it down the toilet for what you and I both know is the right choice.
@@jamiestwrt LOL!!! I don't make nearly enough money for the time spent on this channel to have that level of loyalty for that reason. If this channel didn't take off like it did I would just make more variety gaming content on my other channel. I do this because I enjoy it, and have for almost a decade. Absolutely nothing to do with some arbitrary loyalty to a channel with under 5k subs. Yet, and here's where the power of nuance comes in to play. I can dislike this move that Blizzard has made and still enjoy the game.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Youre seriously telling me you're happy to give blizzard a sub fee after having made this video and your defense is "it's nuanced". I don't buy it.
@@jamiestwrt How I feel about a game and how I feel about a decision are different things. My feelings on a game can be a list of things, business model, progression, aesthetic, music, gameplay mechanics, uniqueness, etc. I absolutely despise how bad the 4 dungeons in Zelda Breath of the Wild are, but that's just one element of the game and I enjoy that experience as a whole. I'm not happy about how the cash shop of Final Fantasy 14 is implemented either, but I don't dislike it enough to not play the game. However, a game like Heroes of Newerth changed it's business model in a way that I thought negatively impacted the experience so much that I did end up no longer playing the game. I also don't like the cash shop in Modern WoW, as I've made a whole video about that as well on this same channel. Yet I still play Shadowlands casually because while I think the cash shop's existence makes the game worse and I don't like it, it's not egregious enough to make me unsub on it's own. There are varying degrees of dislike and while I really dislike this change to TBC, it's not enough on it's own to make me no play at all. It might be but 1 reason I stopped playing someday, but it's not the sole reason at the moment.
I don't think so, hence why I tried to not paint this as a doom and gloom video. It's just a piece of the game that I think will make it worse, but I don't think this will be "the" definitive killer of the game. It might be for some people, but overall I don't think so. However, I don't think it's beneficial to Classic TBC in anyway and is only a negative so I'll still speak up against it.
Activision is a $65 billion company. Without a box cost, TBC Classic might make at most $50 million in profit over its entire lifecycle if you remove the people who would subscribe to retail anyways. Peanuts for them. Classic is being developed to appease the fans and undercut private servers for reputation/brand reasons - not to drive their financial results. They make a deluxe edition because people like the deluxe editions and it subsidizes the game for the players who can't pay. This mount would not be added to the game if they couldn't charge for it - TBC development was done 15 years ago, they aren't adding in-game content. And I personally wouldn't want them to. Your argument makes very little sense. These deluxe items hold no value or prestige. Everyone knows the rewards are just bought and are only important to collectors. The boost is another matter and is the only thing worth discussing because it removes the risk of a ban. I personally benefit from the boost and will use it on four accounts because I can, but it sucks for the people who can't. If they start talking about adding the token, then we have a real gripe.
"This mount would not be added to the game if they couldn't charge for it - TBC development was done 15 years ago, they aren't adding in-game content." Good point. Perhaps people would have been less upset if Classic and TBC Classic *had* had box prices, but I doubt it. I've listened to several people's arguments against the cash shop - people I very much respect and like, Zerbraxi and Taliesin in particular, but I just don't see an issue. Could the effort put into designing these mounts have been used for in-game content that came free with the sub? Yes. Would we prefer getting it included with our sub instead of paying for it? Of course. But Blizzard is a for-profit company and is going to make as much of that profit as it can, and I have a hard time being outraged about people buying skins instead of getting them included with the game. The more money WoW in general, and Classic in particular, makes for Blizzard, the higher priority it becomes to decision-makers. Cash shop cosmetics generate a lot of money. It would be very interesting to have an alternate dimension wherein we could see the health of the game in a world where there was no cash shop nor all the millions of dollars it's generated for Blizzard since that first pony sparkled, but we can only guess. I guess I just don't see a WoW that generates _less_ income for its company being a healthier game.
What would prevent Blizzard from adding content to TBC Classic? They have already added a pretty significant item to Classic WoW so the precedence as been set they aren't above "adding" to the game. You make the point that the deluxe items hold no value, which is the exact argument I made. Their complete lack of value only makes them cash prizes for nothing in return for the player. How is that a beneficial business practice? How does that benefit the player if it holds no value? Why would we not want content behind the rewards we receive? How is asking for content that precedes a reward from the cash shop a negative impact to the game? I'm not sure how my argument that I would like to have content behind the things I'm purchasing in a video game makes little sense. Isn't that the whole point of a game is the content within it?
@@ZerbraxiWoW The point is that it does not benefit the player, that's why it's a non-issue. It's worthless. They are not adding content because classic is classic in terms of content. The chronoboon is not content, it's a QoL update. TBC is what it is, they shouldn't add any content.
They've had a pretty strong influence since they're business partnership around the start of Wrath. Many people knew something like this was probably coming. Still isn't gonna stop me from complaining about it lol.
Cash shop doesn't affect gameplay how about a video on how leatherworking is a trash profession with no benefit whatsoever with all gear being meh and now not even worth having a drummer in a party unless it's a healer who doesnt want to go lw
Why can't I make both of those videos? Just because the cash shop doesn't affect gameplay doesn't mean it also doesn't have other implications that can be negative for the game. Despite my often praise for TBC there are still issues I have with the game, as well as modern changes to WoW as a whole. I don't always make my videos by priority of what I think is the worst or most impacting. Sometimes it's just what I'm feeling like at the moment or what's topical. Leatherworking is still an interesting discussion to me though so I'm sure I'll talk about that too.
Microtransactions are only ok in F2P games (as long as they are not pay to win). If I'm paying a subscription I am less likely to invest extra money on other stuff. I see it like this. A game is "worth" X amount of money from me. Somewhere between 50-100 euro. If it's F2P that means I get a free "test period" and if I like the game I don't mind spending the money. If I'm already paying I'll hold tighter to my money, and also start considering cancelling my subscription once I reach the point where I feel I've spent enough on it.
I'm not entirely against cash shops at all, and you make some good points as to why. For example, I absolutely LOVE Guild Wars 2, probably too much. That game has a cash shop and I don't mind it. I still think they get a bit out of hand at times and more of the content should be in game, but I'm not against it because that's how they fund their continual development. Path of Exile is similar. I don't dislike it's shop despite thinking many of the items are overpriced, but it's a free game and they need to monetize. Cash shops, Microtransactions, DLC, etc is all a rather nuanced topic. It's not as simple as good or bad. You seem to have a good head about the value of your own time and money though.
I disagree, if classic and tbc make more money than current wow, then that will make blizz want to release more content like classic. Also Wrath had a cash shop and was my favorite xpac by far. Imo it had the best raids (with the exception of trial of crusaders, f that raid lol) and the bgs and arenas were more fun for me than any other xpac.
Wrath was incredible, but it's important to note that the cash shop introduced 2 minipets in patch 3.2 and the Celestial Steed in 3.3. These were introduced at the end of the expansion but, it's also important to remember the outcry of when they were introduced. Wrath is great, absolutely, but something great can also have some huge stains. The fact the items weren't in the game as content is a misstep that Blizzard shouldn't have taken. I get your intention when you point out that if Classic made more money than Shadowlands then Classic might get more/new content. However, it isn't just about making "more" per say. The development cost of Classic is fractions of Retail, yet through all data analytic websites it has over half the player base. The Return On Investment for Classic is massive, and ROI is a better metric than just raw gain since it's a bit more scalable and relative. From all we've heard thus far, the ROI of Classic is by far large enough to warrant better treatment. Side note, I'm also looking forward to Wrath Classic at some point. See ya there!
@@ZerbraxiWoW i forgot about the pets and mount, i was thinking they had race and faction changes, realm transfers and maybe a name change from the start of wrath, but thats a long time ago, so i could be wrong. Also when i said "more content like classic" I meant (and hope lol) that future expacs will get back to being more like classic, like a more in depth talent tree, class identity and more of the rpg elements that were phased out over the years. Also do you have a video showing where you found that classic has 1.5x more players than shadowlands? Id definatley be interested in seeing that, because if thats so, its awesome news, at least for those of us that prefer classic.
@@fritzschnitzmueller3768 I mean making future retail expacs more like classic and yes, if classic is bringing in more money than retail I 100% believe they will.
It’s funny how half of the playerbase is mad. It’s 2021 not 2010. You can choose to spend your own money. Don’t like the deluxe edition? Don’t buy it. Pretty straightforward.
Its not about that. Did you even try to understand the arguments? Why are you throwing these dates in there? It does not even make sense. What do you want to say? There was no free will in 2010?
@@fritzschnitzmueller3768 I’m saying that gaming has advanced in the 11 years. Settle down turbo, maybe your mom will let you use her card to get the deluxe edition.
Why doesn't current year have any relevance in this? Also, "just don't buy it" really misses the point. Yes, I can choose to not buy something I don't like. As a customer I will vote with my wallet about things I do and do not support. This type of cash shop doesn't provide content, just rewards, rewards that could and should be tied to in game content because that's what games are made of. People willing to pay more for less is up to them. Unfortunately, the amount of awesome cash shop items that exist in Shadowlands that could be content that other's don't get access to because none of it's in game is just one of many ways that it affects far more than just "don't buy it".
@@ZerbraxiWoW as a customer paying $15 a month you’ve already told them they can milk you, correct? Not everyone has hours and hours to play a game everyday. If they “just added it to existing content” odds are, most of the people will still never ride that mount. They are cosmetics, and honestly it’s nice to add a little fun to the game. Not every person who plays is the “guy spending months in his basement” this has become a much more casual game. Everyone was pissed about WoW tokens to until it was proven to slow down buying gold from another source.
No people remember TCG but it was not like that just everybody could by the stuff . You really needed luck and it was still limited loot . You did not see see the TCG stuff often back in the day. You will see thousands of the store mounts in tbc and individualization is gone.
I didn't forget. Though to compare TCG loot with a direct in game shop is a bit disingenuous. One of these is cross promotion of products, the other is the one I made a video about here. My thoughts on TCG loot, and if it was good or not, is a whole other issue that I might talk about one day because it has different implications than this cash shop.
im okay with them adding a new mount, but Path of Illidan is lame. If they are gonna add something like that they should also add something cooler that is similar that is very challenging to get in the open world.
I don't know how to comment this without coming off as an ass but; Some constructive criticism: I would suggest swallowing a bit more before speaking. At times it sounds like your mouth is overflowing with saliva. I really hope you don't take offense but rather take this as just a possibility to improve the audio, that's all!
Woah woah woah, to be fair, I never presented this as a doom and gloom argument. In fact, I even preface with the fact that we don't know if a Cash Shop is officially announced beyond what we have here with these items. This video exists to setup the argument as to why I don't think it's healthy for the game. I think it makes the game worse, but I don't think it kills the game. I'm very rarely ever so hyperbolic like that.
@@ZerbraxiWoW I did like your point that the items in the cash shop should be tied to in-game content. But imo if this revenue justifies to Blizzard ongoing classic maintenance and dev time, it's worth it. As long as there's never power gains that is.
Why do people CARE about cash shops? If you don't like it, don't use it. Sheesh, special snowflakes everywhere. If someone wants to spend their money to buy cosmetic pixels, wtf is YOUR problem?
If you watched through my whole video and you don't know my stance as to the why, then I've failed in my approximately 6 times I mentioned my thesis. These types of shops don't provide any additional content in the game, but instead are a dopamine fix for a reward with nothing else attached to it. Less content in game means less content for everyone, including those buying the product. That's just a very short summation as to why. Contrary to popular belief, yes, other people buying these does affect those who do not. Dev time now goes into the crafting of the reward instead of the crafting of an in-game quest in order to obtain the reward.
@@ZerbraxiWoW You didn't fail anything, the video was very good and everything was well explained and rationalized. However, bottom line is : It's COSMETICS, not a weapon, not an armor, not something that will affect anyone's gameplay, so having a shop will not affect people like me, who simply don't use it. Regarding content, no one wants extra content, they want the vanilla experience. It's nostalgia - people want to re-live their 20s or whatever, who cares if Blizzard put in a cash shop for cosmetics? It's not going to affect my gameplay and it shouldn't really affect anyone's gameplay. It's vanity items, which do not affect gameplay. Let them milk it, what's our problem? Why should we care? We just wanna level up toons, kill Illidan, grind dungeons in TBC etc.
Thankfully not this time around for Classic specifically, though the development cost and product sale for TBC already occurred so in essence it's still applicable to this discussion.
Deluxe edition rewards were a thing in TBC when it released. Since we are in 2021 not 2007 now I would argue releasing a digital deluxe with rewards while it isn’t “NO CHANGES” still captures the spirit of that classic TBC deluxe edition at the time.
Collectors Editions muddy the waters on this conversation a lot because there's also a physical reward most of the time. There's also the fact that there's a difference between Single Player games vs Multiplayer vs MMO as to what should and shouldn't be acceptable. I didn't spend too much time on that piece itself on the video because it could seriously be a whole video in and of itself.
All good, it happens. We're not gonna agree on everything. I only hope that I can setup my arguments in a respectable manner and will happily engage in discussion.
Clickbait title and opinion. Which is fine. But you are posting about things you despise while trying to get views to get money from Google. Ironic? Sorry mate, I do not completely agree with your take on this OR stating any sort of deluxe edition is the same thing as what we all understand and commonly accept as a "cash shop"
I suppose it's clickbait but the title of my video is the literal thesis of my video that I conclude. If I wanted to do better clickbait I would've said like "Classic TBC Cash Shop KILLS WOW!" or something. Instead I listed my thesis and conclusion to my point. Also, I don't despise WoW, Classic, or TBC. I absolutely love these games, but reality is nuanced, not black and white. I can love something while also not liking other elements. For example, Ocarina of Time is my personal favorite game and I think the design of the quest to open Jabu Jabu's Belly is poor and incomplete. It makes for a worse experience but that isn't the same as a bad experience. I'm cool if people don't agree though, seriously. I find these types of discussions fascinating and I love to hear everyone's perspective. I appreciate your feeedback.
I'm not planning on it. However, even if I did buy it, what in game content comes along with this? If I buy a mount what in game activity am I getting for the money I'm spending? If the answer is none, then what benefit does that have to me as the player for the game I'm playing?
That's why you don't buy it. If you feel like you need content for an item to be in game, then you shouldn't buy it because there's no content for you. Seems like a personal decision...
This made me think. I completely agree with everything said and before now never knew I had a issue with a cash shop. It’s temping for me as I’m a father, husband, management for a company and due to that grinding gold or mounts is tough but after watching this I for one will not be buying this and will just rather spend a year+ leveling and grinding in order to keep early wow special. Since wrath (when I stopped playing) I’ve had a void in gaming and straight up stopped for years. Classic brought me back and I don’t want to contribute to losing what I’ve missed for years.
This is actually really heartwarming to hear. I've played WoW both from pushing top 50 World hardcore, to extremely casual logging in a couple hours a week. I've always found that skipping content via Blizzard's new patch model, or by having the cash shop not provide in game content actually hurts the casual player more than they think.
One of the greatest pulls to Classic for me was there exists a certain type of ... prestige of ingame rewards. You earned it. You put in the time, dedication, etc.
When I'm on my horde rogue and I ambush an alliance with the Winterspring frostsaber, I always give them a /salute. It's a helluva grind.
Or if I see someone in Stormwind with Field Marshal's Battlegear.. you know, I give them a /nod.
These are things with an unique look - and they took some effort to obtain.
Ingame store just cheapens that, imo and it de-incentivizes ActiBlizz from actually putting in effort on ingame rewards.
Just put the cool, unique looking things in the shop and the gulls will swipe their credit card non-stop.
Very true. I think it goes even further beyond the examples you gave as well. Either way, I'm not a fan of this if it becomes a part of the game.
When I saw the mount I couldn’t care less, but you make a huge argument why it isn’t good. Thanks for this!
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed the video!
By now we should all understand that the "authentic" experience we wanted will not be what we get
Profit > Gameplay
While I accept this to be true, there's still some fight in me to push forward and try anyway.
Oh plz dont misunderstand me. I am gonna have a frikking BLAST with the rerelease!
RIP Totalbiscuit
He's very much missed.
even from the grave hes giving away wisdom. ;
Such bullshit. We’re paying 15$ month for a 14 year old game and they still can’t give it a rest
Whether we like it or not, the reality is that these types of digital goods make insane amounts of money for Blizzard. This is why Blizzard has even mentioned that subscription numbers aren't there current benchmark for success of the game. It would seem recurrent spending for digital goods is their new benchmark.
Everytime I watch your channel I wonder why you don’t have a huge following the videos are flawless my man!
Still pretty new to the scene in the grand scheme of things, but I really appreciate the comment!
@@ZerbraxiWoW hey the video and content is spot on and right on par if not better than the bigger content creators!
I'd prefer there not to be new cash shop items in tbc, but idk how we can do anything to stop blizz from cashing in on the people who will gladly pay :P
We can't. We can't handhold Blizzard in each and every contentious situation. If they don't understand, or care to understand what made the old game work, they simply don't. And either weak-minded people, or people who don't care at all about the integrity of the game, will enable that mindset. I think that's just how it is and we can only hope that enough of what made the game great remains after all is done. (Or that they will learn and change.)
Most people are in the same boat as you, and I will probably get there too. Though, for now, I still have the energy to kick up a fuss and encourage people to vote with their wallets.
You can stop playing the game, punish them by hurting their consistent stream of revenue when they try to take more cookies out of the jar
Also the community as a whole can humiliate players who spend IRL money on in-game features/content/items
You can go to private servers in protest. They'd lose more money if for every mount sold, they lost a subscriber
You voice your opinion and do what I do and quit. I can't help but think that instead of wasting time putting this shit we didn't want into TBC, they could have used the resources to make Shadowlands not suck. -edit, I posted this before listening to the whole video, so basically everything the video said.
You're 100% correct. We should storm bliz HQ the final raid my friend's. Lok'tar Ogar!
LOLOL I wonder what loot they have.
If you dont like a cash shop, dont buy anything from it. I really dont understand how someone else having a cash shop mount effects your experience in any way.
I don't like, I don't use it, and if you seriously don't understand how then I highly suggest watching the last 3 minutes of my video again where I explicitly state why.
@@ZerbraxiWoW the wish for a classic plus style addition, or if they werent using cash shops they would for some reason add a quest to get the items isnt based in reality. Mount collecting has been a huge thing in the game,specially since wrath. Every expac they add tons of new mounts for you to get your dopamine from collecting.Shadowlands alone added 84 mounts. Most store mounts are in no way lore frendly, and wouldn't exist as an in game collectable.
Nothing is being taken away from you because store mounts exist.
@@reptiliancow I can't find how Lore friendliness would have an effect here. Just to name a few, Steamscale Incinerator, Imperial Quilen, Enchanted Fey Dragon, Heart of the Aspects, Sylverian Dreamer, Vulpine Familiar, Mystic Runsaber, all of those immediately have some easy connection you can make to World of Warcraft based on their aesthetic and name alone. Heck, the Vulpine Familiar model literally exists in Shadowlands as a mob and the Fey Dragon also now has more lore significance because of Shadowlands.
Also, the Warcraft universe is bonkers. There are aliens invading, literal dieties involved, sci-fi elements, the original gnomes are junkyard aesthetic, WoW is so vast that quite literally anything could be made into the lore, that's the beauty of Warcraft.
Thanks for making this video - the more eyes we can get on this issue, the better imo.
I hate a potential in-game cash shop
I Love Zerbraxi
dont use it if you hate it
Thank you for watching! Glad you enjoyed. Don't love me too much though, I gotta keep my ego in check lol.
Is it really the consumers fault when it’s the companies that put us in these positions?
Either way, love your perspective. Always so level headed and based in good faith. You are a smart dude
You vote with your dollars in this instance. Though it gets harder and harder when companies see this stuff works for monetization and now everyone does it.
If no one paid, it wouldn’t happen. If no one bought gold we would not have gold farmers, but there are tons who buy gold then go to gDKPs to buy gear, and we support them by going as “carries.”
If we support the activity as a community, we have to expect there will be more of it.
It's not customer's alone at fault, though if a product isn't purchased then it dies. The fact many dislike something and then buy it anyway sends a super mixed message to the publisher and the developer. We need to vote with our wallets more than we need to complain.
All donations to the "Bobby needs another yacht" appeal are greatly appreciated.
Take my money! Have more boats.
Didnt he just cut his salery in half? He needs to make up for that
I haven't commented on any video, even the very best ones, in forever. This one, however, deserves everyone's attention. That is the best explanation and argument against cash shops/microtransactions I have ever heard. Brilliantly articulated, well done.
Thank you. It's a conversation I've had countless times over many games. There is totally a good way to handle microtransactions and small dlc content in games. I don't think it works with WoW's current model, and I think their implementation of those store fronts provides no content to the player, even those who happily purchase the items.
FACTS.
They need to remove AoE cap as well.
They should focus on making all the classes in the game have their own awesome niche capabilities instead of trying to ruin an awesome part of WoW. (AoE, Boosting IN GAME, etc)
They could use their time and money making the game and classes within the game better instead of throwing a nerf (THAT DOESNT EVEN STOP AOE BOOSTING) at a class because its the easiest solution.....
So to be fair the AOE cap that they've implemented did exist in Patch 2.2. I did a whole video about it, so it existing in Classic TBC isn't a surprise. However, the fact that the purpose of the AoE cap to stop boosting, which is doesn't seem to have done, and then Blizzard adding their own boost, well, for those who might not have played TBC it looks a bit suspicious. I don't think they're correlated though.
In game class changes for Classic TBC though, that's a larger discussion I'm hoping to touch on at some point soon.
Agreed
Solid points. I don't understand why people aren't more outraged by the introduction of these bonuses to the deluxe edition. It for me, Is a look into the future of "classic". I hope I'm wrong but it seems like the same path they've taken before with little consideration to what the core of their player base actually desire.
This was mostly the reason why I made the video. We still don't have solid evidence from Blizzard themselves that a cash shop will be introduced to the game like retail, but this sets up the possibility of one. Patch 3.2 introducing the cash shop was something many of us thought was just a minipet charity drive. I've learned my lesson and I'm being way more cautious and skeptical this time around.
@@ZerbraxiWoW This is mainly what drives me to disagree with the general sentiment of the video; cash shops are bad, I surely do agree, but every single WoW expansion has had a CE, even before the introduction of the cash shop.
For the same reasons, I frankly think *not* expecting a CE is rather gullible. Yes, this time around the game itself is free, but the CE was always just a "pay additional real-life money for extra stuff (including in-game stuff)"-purchase. Nothing changed. Yes, we have seen like what it looks like when Pandora's box is wide open - and it ain't pretty - but succombing to the slippery slope fallacy just yet seems like an overreaction.
And I say this as someone who doesn't care to buy these kind of things, ever. If there is no achievement behind them, they have no inherent value or cool-factor, if you will, to me. On that same note I don't buy the "But new store mounts devalue other achievements!?" narrative. Heck no, they don't. Knowing that the mount is just a credit card swipe away makes it pretty lame. Whereas Raven Lord or Midnight will forever be straight FIRE!
@@mikkel9840 I didn't expect a TBC CE because Classic WoW didn't have one despite Vanilla having a CE. My expectation wasn't based on being gullible, it was based on precedent. Also, I never claimed that store mounts devalue the achievements or accomplishments of others. I would only ever claim that statement on a specific item if it was some sort of replicative reproduction of an in-game item that did have something special attached to it. In this case they don't.
I understand your sentiment here, but to claim my worries of a cash shop are a slipper slope fallacy is rather odd. We've quite literally seen this happen already. You even said yourself that "we have seen like what it looks like when Pandora's box is wide open." I by no means attempted to be dramatic or a doomsayer in this video. I simply painted what we've experienced and my concerns for what I think this type of model in WoW isn't beneficial.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Sorry, based on your response I believe I have come off as hostile, and this was not at all the intention. Rest assured I love you to death and spread your name on the big interwebs every chance I get!
For the record though, regarding the devaluation of other achievements, I know you did not address it in the video (and therefore, nor did I claim you said so either). It was more a nod toward this argument as a general one, because it's very often tossed around in this discussion - granted, namely so on reddit. I was merely trying to "expand the discussion", if you will, frankly because I was curious on your stance in this matter - by no means was it my attention to shove it down your throat.
I agree though that I'm also closing in on the slippery slope as an *argument* (as opposed to a fallacy) myself. However, the boost was a much bigger factor in that process than the CE is. While I kind of did expect a CE (and I think this is a fairly 'basic' one at that), I must say I was more blindsided by the boost.
Again, apologies for the possible harsh tone! Keep up the amazing work!
@@mikkel9840 Nah it's all good. I really appreciate discussing this type of thing. It affects all of us to some extent and it's always fascinating hearing others opinions. I also have a tendency sometimes when discussing things to come off cold so my response could've just been that. I didn't take what you said as hostile or aggressive at all.
I saw a video with Asmongold talking about his concerns on this topic, "MAN DOOOD MAN DOOD FUCK THIS MANDOOD" pretty much sums it up.
Anyway, as always, you're punching us in the face with straight facts. I'm one of the guys growing up with vanilla back in 2004 as a teen and seeing these changes such as store mount really makes me sick. We just have to suck up the fact that these new generations of snowflakes have been growing up with praticipating medals and no longer see a reason to WIN.
Keep en coming my man!
In terms of monetization I do feel bad that many younger player especially are normalized to this type of practice. It's not cool and I'll happily stick up for the customer's best interest, even the people who are happy to throw that away.
Lol generation of snowflakes? Seems to me that these “snowflakes” aren’t the ones crying about something that isn’t even required in a game. Grown adults crying about a video game is the definition of “snowflake”.
I had never considered that the cash shop was actually giving giving blizzard the excuse to release an item with no tie to the content for a fee. I had always separated the cash shop items from the actual game in my mind cause I would never buy any of the cash shop items. But considering that blizzard is actually stealing potential content away from players that ties these items to the game is a hell of take. I agree wholeheartedly.
This has always been the core of the argument even going back to the Horse Armor DLC in Oblivion. Many companies paint the in game experience and the cash shop separately because once people realize they are losing content for more money they'll be less likely to purchase. I don't think their original motives for a shop were malicious, but it's definitely not good value for the customer and we should be vocal about that.
One concern I also have is that this gives people an epic mount which will come with the riding skill, so if you get this mount on a char that doesn't have one yet, it's quite a bit of gold savings. So it is defo not just a cosmetic. It's over 600g of ingame value, too.
Honestly by now I just hope we don't get wow token before wotlk. Clearly Actiblizz is ready to make profit at any cost and they don't care about making the game worse for it at all.
Unfortunately this practice is far more reaching than WoW, it's an industry standard monetization model now. By no means does it excuse the practice, but it's also because players continue to buy into this type of model that it exists. The most powerful tool a customer has is their wallet.
Well-rounded deep-dive into a very real concern.
Thank you. I try to view all points before discussing since it just makes for better conversation.
When you look at the forum you see all these kiddos just wanting to throw their money at blizzard and defending the company at any cost. Mostly because they dont get why older people love classic but hate retail. People that want transmogs and bettle pets in classic. Its fucking crazy
For people who are actual kiddos, I tend to not give them too much flack. Or, I should say I tend to approach that conversation a bit differently. For a lot of younger people this is the only monetization in gaming that they've ever known so it's completely normalized to them. DLC and Microtransactions aren't a problem on their own, but their laziness of implementation is laughable today. I'm not against them entirely. For example, when Mass Effect introduces a new character it's not just a new party member. There's a whole new set of missions to unlock them then can be several hours worth of content. There's entire voice lines, dialogue, story changes, etc. That's how you deliver a "new character" while also delivering content to the player. Except that Day 1 DLC for Mass Effect 3. That character had far too much story significance to be allowed to be DLC lol.
Hey Zerbraxi , another great video . I'd like to say something that I've said on other posts but no content maker seems interested in talking about , but I really think that someone should pick this up and make a video about it . Classic servers with a cash shop and classic servers without a cash shop ( for original classic , TBC classic and LK classic ) . Some people want to cash shops ( mostly so they can buy gold legitimately ) and others want the entire experience to be one that comes strictly from their own efforts in game . Blizzard can do this without much effort and make both sides happy . Personally I'm in the no cash shop camp , but I have no bone to pick with people that would like to have a cash shop . I'm not sure why no content maker or streamer hasn't picked up this subject . Maybe it's because they are too entrenched in what they want . Imagine if there was the option of cash shop servers and no cash shop servers . Wouldn't this help the no cash shop players sleep better at night and make Blizzard some extra profit ? It really could be a win for all and prolong the gamers enjoyment of the game and keep them subbed up . Maybe make a video about this and include a pole . You might find a lot of other content providers pick up on your video and pole . This would surely help your channel grow .
This is definitely an interesting idea. I think it could go even further beyond just a cash shop but other types of changes as well. I wonder if there's precedence from other games that have done this or not as well. I'll definitely consider this.
That sub count should be going through the roof guys, this man has the WoW content we love!
Give it some time. Natural growth is better.
This is probably true for me lol. Gotta keep my ego in check.
I feel like if they could sell the game again they would but with that being a legal issue this is their way to sell TBC again in a different way.
Interesting perspective actually. This totally might be one of the reasons they went this route.
Me food-running at our local restaurant for 8 hours is a quest in itself and I reward myself with an ingame purchase, idk thats how I justify it
Would it not be more beneficial and engaging to have this tied to gameplay rather than just a purchase?
@@ZerbraxiWoW To be fair, not everyone has the time to complete all end-game content. I've always lagged behind before the next expansion dropped, so spending a few dollars for a sweet mount isn't so bad. Ofcourse it's not as rewarding, but at least it's nice to have the option
It’s not us Zerbraxi. It’s the vocal minority and also instant gratification retail players who want this crap in classic. Also, I believe blizzard just doesn’t care. They think the cash shop is great. What they don’t realize is if they’d focus on making a good game they’d still have 12 million subs and wouldn’t need the cash shop. People don’t even play retail expansions for more than a month after release anymore.
That totally might not have 12 million subs still but I get your point lol. The other thing I've thought of is that it might not just be that Blizzard is being "malicious" or "apathetic". This type of monetization has become an industry standard and they seem to just be replicating it. I still don't like it either way though.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Which would make blizzard stand out even more if they went away from the industry standard. I think players across all games hate that its the standard. Also, imagine if they still had 12m subs AND a cash shop. I know getting back to 12m is a stretch. I intentionally used that number to make a point. Imagine if they made a game good enough that they still had millions of subs more than they do now and they had the cash shop. They'd be rolling in the dough. If the game was good I wouldn't care as much about the cash shop. I don't play retail. I haven't since they announced Classic. Great content btw. Always look forward to new Zerbraxi content.
Just checkin in to another good video from the man! No comedian look alike comment today ;)
Bro being Seth would be better for this video so I can at least get a couple laughs in LOL
@@ZerbraxiWoW oof!
There is actually another thing to consider. Development costs nowadays are higher and everything associated with it. Of course it's easy to shit on Activision for triple dipping (or quadruple dipping - don't forget the Bliizard tokens lol), but nobody ever considers the fact that they have never increased the monthly fee. Players like to complain about the item shop, but I can guarantee they would go apeshit if Blizzard increased the monthly fee to 20 dollars.
I would actually gladly the 20 bucks if they got rid of the item shop and hired some decent game designers.
2:17 "The purpose of the subscription model is to ensure that new content is developed regularly for the players."
Or is it? Keeping MMO-scale server infrastructure running 24/7 isn't cheap. I'd say the subscription model is to remove server costs from the equation, likely with some profit margin on top. Development of new content, from my perspective, is funded by releases. So the sales of an expansion (in retail) pays for its pre- & post-release development, like traditional release models.
F2P MMOs bank on microtransactions making up those server and development costs instead. Or in the case of retail wow, microtransactions fund fat bonuses for the executives and investor payouts, at the expense of everyone else.
That's the way I see it anyway. Does this matter to the argument? Probably not.
There was an interesting interview about the purpose of a subscription fee with Jeff Strain, one of the founders of ArenaNet who made the original Guild Wars and now Guild Wars 2. In that interview when asked about why Guild Wars 1 doesn't have a sub fee but instead more frequent expansions he said the following:
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true - you know it, and they know it. Gamers may buy the argument that your MMO requires a subscription fee, if you can tell them what they are getting for their money. " - Jeff Strain 2007
It's also important to note that much of the original ANet team also came from Blizzard directly from the early WoW development, not like Guild Wars devs need any further credentials lol. As someone who also works with server maintenance as part of my profession, maintenance costs exist, but their actual cost to run are typically grossly overstated by the industry.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Interesting, do you know how different the landscape is from 2007 to now? Like now that it's all cloud, since Blizz still manages all of it themselves (though I think hosted by AT&T?), cheaper or more expensive?
I know cloud is often touted as being cheaper on Pay-As-You-Go models compared to on-premises servers - though to my understanding, a large draw is also just the robustness and flexibility of the infrastructure itself - but if all of that cloud backend is dedicated to and managed by the company anyway?
Or maybe it's so cheap now and that's why so little information exists on Blizzard's backend, hah.
@@RaawHax Unfortunately there's no way that I'd be able to speak for Blizzard specifically here, but I'd be genuinely surprised if their data centers and moves over to cloud and virtualization increased their overall costs. For the environment I work in we have moved almost everything cloud based and cost is a major factor to why and we continue moving on-prem environments to cloud every year and we continue to reap rewards each time. There are some studies out there that claim cloud based services actually increase overall cost, but that seems like bad administration over the backend more than anything.
Just put in the damn cash shop. They are gonna do it regardless..... they cherry got popped when the 58 boost was announced, what’s the difference between a cash shop and %60 buying gold illicitly? My point exactly. Put in the shop
The difference is that one of those is less content for more money for the players on average. The other is against TOS. Both are bad. Why would I want something bad? It's totally possible to accept that something is going to happen while still disagreeing with it.
@@ZerbraxiWoW true, just dont think there is anything we can do to stop it
If you are whining AND you bought chinese gold... YOU are the problem
True.
This is by far, the best take on the situation. I can go further and say that overpriced "services" are the future for MMOs. I see that you played or know a few things about other MMOs, so you get what i'm saying. If Activision could, they would transform WoW on those Korean MMOs where you need to pay to walk. They know that the clone price will kill Vanilla, but they really don't care if they can cash out as much as possible. As i as say, we players opened the box of microtransactions, now we will face the consequences. One easy example i can give you is ESO: i love the game, i find no problem paying the sub but the cash shop is shit.
The only cash shop I've had the least amount of problem with is Guild Wars 2 because there is no sub fee. However, even in GW2 there are some pretty damn expensive items and arguably too much is in the shop vs in game still.
Thank you for perfectly articulating my thoughts!
You're welcome! Glad I could rip the thoughts from your brain. I'll need some more for a future video though :P
I have never bought anything from blizzards store, if i can't get it through playing the game im paying a subscription for then it doesn't exist in my eyes
I think it's a shitty practice tho since they do look great.
That's always the extra kick in the teeth is if the cash shop item actually looks good lol
Blizzard have been constantly reminded a good chunk of players do not like this and do not like the direction of the retail game. They just ignored this and went for even more quick grabs with the cash shop. After more than a decade they finalize realize that the players base that was alienated by the current state of the game could actually be brought back. Despite them simply not believing (you think you do, but you don't). So what's next? How can we keep this newly found player base? Of course with a short term, quick money grab. We need the next quarter to be the best possible, even if this means starting the exodus of players. So no, i don't believe even voting with the wallet, quitting the game, will make them understand the problem. I will not buy the mount, I will not buy anything from the cash shop, but I have zero faith in Blizzard ability to decide what is best long term for the game.
Classic WoW in so many ways bought Blizzard some insane levels of good will. It is very surprising to see them earn more good will with their feelings on TBC only to then poke the community with knowingly poorly received services. Not sure if their disconnected or if they know the ROI on this type of move is worth the "loyalty withdrawal" as Mike Morhaime used to say.
You’re right man. 100%
Thanks!
I think the last statement is the most poignant. The reason the cashshop is so developed in modern WoW, is because people buy those items, and they buy them in large amounts. Therefore, the cashshop makes a large chunck of money for Blizzard. For extremely minimal effort, Blizzard is making a huge return on investment with these cosmetic items. Why wouldn't they do it? If the players collectively abstain from the cashshop, and don't buy these items, the cashshop would quickly cease to exist. Same premise for boosting.
Agreed. Some people seemed to get the wrong idea from that conclusion and think I was just outright blaming the customers. In reality, a lot of people don't realize the buying power they actually have to influence the game, both good and bad. We should be knowledgeable of that power and exercise it as we see fit.
@@ZerbraxiWoW We all vote with our wallets.
Wait. Where does it say this mounts are usable in TBC classic?
We've yet to see official confirmation on this, hence the hypothetical preface I opened with.
@@ZerbraxiWoW got it. Rewatched the beginning, three times, did not catch that
@@Rockmaster867 0:22 , I opened with that this isn't confirmed yet. I try to be careful with my words because I hate giving misinformation if I can avoid it.
I'm not sure we should say that *we* , as the classic community, should be to blame if a minority of whales buy the mount ~ (a number we'll never have obviously)
There will always be people buying what Blizzard put in store, even during vanilla, despite all the fuss about a cash shop, I'm pretty sure numbers would have barely moved if they introduced it right away.
It's mostly their greed that put us in this situation in the first place, like always. It's pointless to remind everyone that when you give them a finger Activision surely aims to eat your whole arm later down the line...
I tend to say "we" a lot when talking about this types of things. I have this team oriented mindset even when it's separate teams. Something I do need to work on, or at least be more specific with.
A lot of good points I honestly hadn’t thought of. My issue with this has nothing to do with the mount and is just around how beneficial the dark portal toy will be. For non-mages having a second hearthstone (dark portal toy) is a big enough quality of life change I would buy the deluxe edition for that if it’s not available any other way
This is a gameplay interaction I really did want to touch on, however I didn't because I think even the mounts and skins have negative impact on the game by not being tied to in-game content in some manner.
I don't really get the outrage of a game having a cash shop. Unfortunately, a lot of popular games have cosmetics that you can buy. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's as simple as that. Sure it would be great if they added these cosmetics as in game rewards, but the truth is... most casual players don't want to put the work in to get those rewards anyway. Ultimately, I feel that if Blizzard/Activision were smart, they'd do both. Have a cash shop AND have new in game quest rewards (mounts/pets). That way its win-win. Doesn't seem that difficult, but of course the odds of that ever happening are very slim.
I think your proposal is a decent compromise and I'd accept it VS what we have now.
Unfortunately I don't think the modern standard of games having these shops is good enough of a reason to accept them. Purchases should be in game content because that's where the core value of games comes from. I think the industry has done a whole lot of work getting people to accept these business models and that's a bit of a shame to me when customers should expect more.
I LOVE THE CASH SHOP ....... all the salty nerd tears taste so good . im fucking loving the man-child meltdowns over cosmetic skins . muh classic integrity .
Umm... are you ok? Wanna talk about it?
@@ZerbraxiWoW ??? dude you can't tell me you have not seen the meltdowns on the forums or on reddit over cosmetics ( and boost ) are end of the world lvls from the classic community . its pathetic to get mad over what other ppl have in there bags . the "but you didnt earn it" argument is school elementary levels that honestly ppl should have gotten over it . the avg age of a classic player is what 30-40 year olds . you as an adult an the members of the classic community need to grow up a bit over the existence of pixels that ppl got with money your enjoyment of the game is not lesser because Billy got a cash shop mount or boost. if it's such a game breaking issue that ppl are in a frenzy about it maybe it's time for those ppl to move on to other games.
@@ZerbraxiWoW TBC had more cosmetics than the next 3 expansions combined th-cam.com/video/NpYr20fregg/w-d-xo.html its weird that all the anti cosmetic and boost video never fucking mention that lil detail of the original tbc .
@@crackthecorn The argument is not "but you didn't earn it" the argument is "this should be in game content". That second point is beneficial to the customer to every degree. I'm not sure how age is a factor in this discussion, but since you brought it up then people in their 30's and 40's have a better grasp of money than they did 15 years ago. Ideally they would understand their buying power as customers and their ability to vote with their wallet. They hopefully also know how business practices that don't yield benefits to them can seem appealing with no value in return. Those points might be "elementary" as you pointed out, but that's because they are. They are fundamental consumer level issues that aren't complicated and are taught at a Freshman level economics class. Hence why I'll always be surprised that people will support a company in this way when they could, and should, expect more.
This conversation always gets so twisted and devolves into this hyperbolic defense that I, an others, are in some way attacking "Billy" and his pixels. No, I dislike the monetization model in a product that I pay for. I view this separate monetization model as a net negative to the experience of the game when there could be more content in this title as a response to those mounts, pets, etc being in game. That would provide a net positive amount of content for everyone playing including those with disposable income and those without. This has literally NOTHING to do with Billy having pixels in his bag and entirely that the business model yields a negative result to the amount of content in game vs the money spent.
I've not talked about the TCG and Collectors Edition cosmetics for TBC because that could be its very own topic. They way TCG rewards integrate with the game is very different than the Cash Shop. However, I think it's different, not good. I'm not sure how mentioning that detail would actually benefit your argument or defense honestly. People don't like something, and if it's already happened or not doesn't change whether they dislike it.
1. RIP Total Biscuit, loved watching his E3 snarkathons every year.
2. I would be happy if there was no boost and no mount bundle, however since that isnt going to be the case, im likely to buy one or both of those, so i guess im part of the problem
1. His Snarkathon's were awesome. He was a real legend who was constantly trying to make sure customers were getting value for their money.
2. LOL, I'm not the type of person who would call you out or anything. I get your mindset on that matter as I also feel that to an extent. It's hard to put in the effort to fight against something you know is inevitable.
no cash shop in game but i bet blizz or blizz higher ups are getting kick back from the gold sellers
LOL that might be a bit dramatic but I understand the frustration leading to that thought. The Gold Selling is an active detriment to the game. The fact Blizzard hasn't done more is surprising and they really need to step up their game in this regard.
Who said there’s a cash shop? People are being so dramatic and precious about this. Cmon
The same leak that said there would be a deluxe edition before it was ever data mined....
So to be fair I purposely set the preface for this video that we don't know if there's a full cash shop or not. This is far more a discussion piece as to if these things lead to one then what implications come with that. My original two questions set that up because there's a chance this is the only bit of it in game. I still wouldn't like it, but it's not equal to a full cash shop. If a cash shop does exist because of this, and there's precedence for that, then that's where the last half of my video comes into play.
The next point, I think people hate ingame shops (as with me), are mostly people who dont play the modern wow expansiones and ended their WoW gaming in TBc or Wratch, and see how the game just changed into a collectible mount/pet store, increasing the FOMO effect and pretty much just blatantly going with todays norm to implement microtransactions everywhere to squeeze out more money.
A lot of the practices behind these microtransactions and shops are about principles like FOMO and other effects. However, these only work as long as the illusion is still in effect. Once people realize the façade then we tend to realize how manipulative the practice is or the lack of value it provides.
I was thinking playing classic tbc because it's interesting.. but not when they add toys and shop items to the game.. boost and deluxe edition mount was testing limits, but now i'm sure i will not play tbc at all
So to be fair we don't have proof there will be an in game cash shop beyond these rewards. The premise I set in the video is that we don't know if there will be, but this practice can very easily, hypothetically lead to it. What happens if it does? That's my main argument.
its TCG items that existed back in the day? Which technically you bought back then with real money. Also, mounts don't affect gameplay
@@witnessforchrist7778 If mounts are a reward for in game activities and then suddenly they don't exist because instead they're purchased for real life money, then yes, the game is losing potential gameplay activities. There's a really interesting video on this topic from Jim Sterling about the "It's Just Cosmetic" argument. I used to be in that same boat but his video, and many other arguments even from developers themselves have shown just how much a game can lose content wise to these types of microtransactions. Again, microtransactions and cash shops aren't bad inherently, but their current implementation in many games, WoW included, yields nothing but lost content for more money.
A cash shop in TBC is an insult. Even private serves don't does that shit. I will play TBC Classic anyway, but omfg...
Most private Servers do that shit but at least they are f2p.
almost every P-server have a cash shop.
Unfortunately most Private Servers have this model. It's one of many reasons I don't play them. However, ya, I'm also not happy about this cash shop either.
Maybe you're referring to Nostalrius which did not have a cash shop.
honestly i dont care if they introduce new mounts and toys,bcs it doesnt affect me
but i am 100% against character boost and wow tokens,bcs it drasticly changes the meta
If those items are sold then tokens and boosts are on the table as well. When you say something doesn't affect you then you ignore that it can create a domino effect and harm you.
I get your point, but I actually think they all affect you. There's a great video by Jim Sterling about the "It's Just Cosmetic" argument that actually shifted my own view on why I was mostly apathetic to their existence and now a bit more solidly against them.
When they said they were gonna add a instant level boost, I decided not to play TBC Classic. Have any new TBC servers opened that dont have anything ghey?
Negative. All servers are being run the same and have the boost.
The game will still be very enjoyable even though its not perfect. Don't worry to much guys, its what the community makes of it
Very true. This is why I didn't try and paint this as a doom and gloom video. While it's something I very much dislike, it won't ruin the game. I think it makes TBC worse, not bad.
Great video!
Thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed it.
Seriously, what is the point of even putting time into a game for cool looking gear/rewards when the coolest looking ones are bought with money. Its the total opposite of what an RPG came should be.
I wonder why Divinity Original Sin 2 didn't have an in-game cash shop with a bunch of transmog and mounts. Perhaps it's because all of the cool stuff they wanted to give to you can be earned in game because that's the point of a video game.
I'm glad someone pointed this it out. It should be obvious but apparently it isn't.
Reckon they’ll do race change? I bet they do.
Faction change is also possible since they could easily use the faction imbalanced servers as the reasoning.
@@ZerbraxiWoW yeah. As much as i dislike these paid items. Capitalism dictates that they’ll pay attention to the game, if it’s profitable. So players can force change with their wallets. Which is someone good. Could be extreme though
Safe bet
3:13 Dayum, your UI is so incredibly clean.
You think so? I've had several comments about this so perhaps before TBC drops I'll do a UI video for everyone who's interested.
@@ZerbraxiWoW I'd really appreciate it!
6:40 I wish I could share in this sentiment, but while perhaps you and I understand where this road leads and the perverse incentive such purchases give Blizzard, there are enough whales in the ocean who are ignorant enough, or fiscally irresponsible enough to buy in. And at that point it wont matter if both you and I leave in frustration because that one whale is willing to pay three times as much for half the content and quality.
While I'm very cynical about many things there's this optimist in me that hasn't died yet. That piece of me might be on life support, but it's not dead yet lol.
Super bad! No extra items including the boost.
My goal is always to have more in game content rather than paid rewards.
underrated channel!
Underrated commenter imo.
Criminally undersubbed
Thanks for commenting as always!
keep on grinding dude your vids are great, would like to see asmon react to this!
Thanks! Really glad you enjoyed it.
If you don’t buy it on principle then don’t. I start thinking of what azmon said about this topic. We are like loading page activists. Blizz knows they have dedicated fans to the game. That luv will spill over into their wallet.
Voting with our wallets is the best form of expression. I know a lot of people have grown apathetic to this problem, I just haven't lost the energy yet so I'm still trying to move in this uphill battle.
Race change in TBC classic is what i want
How dare you lol
agreed
Disagree.
Same pointless argument. Not intending to be offense. You can come up with whatever logic you want but in the end i still think the same as i did. It doesnt matter. I have no intention of ever buying anything from a cash shop. I also do not care if other people do biy stuff. As long as the cash shop items do not affect the gameplay. I mean combat and abilities, then i dont have any problem at all with them. In other words, when i an fighting mobs from a quest, dungeon, raid and someone has a cash shop pet or tabard or whatever other non gameplay affecting item, i dont mimd at all. In fact, good for them.
I completely get your argument, and it's one I had for quite a while. However, I've realized how much people play the game for things like mounts, skins, etc, and to have that removed from in game and locked behind the cash shop is a disservice to that gameplay. In the end it does affect gameplay, just not perhaps your own in the definition you've described. However for many this is potential content they are losing out on with the content they enjoy playing.
Good shit man
Good comment man!
Guess who's not touching TBC
Steve?
@@ZerbraxiWoW Him too
Bobby Kotick needs another solid gold mansion, and your sub fee won't foot the bill, he needs you to buy cash shop mounts too.
He just slashed his pay in half to help developers and lower employees.
His dreams of Platinum Mansion were slashed along with his recent salary cut.
@@d1rtkoba1n94 15 million instead of 30 million? Is he Mother Theresa now or what? Wowzers.
@@jamiestwrt don’t attack me I’m just stating a fact.
Fantastic
I read that as the 9th Doctor from Doctor Who.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Absolutely Fantastic 😉
I'll be honest with you... I rather they add a cash shop to TBC then they trying to make "new content" for a 13 yr old game... I don't wanna see the old games tainted by new, goofy content... i can already imagine the world quests they would add to TBC... No thanks man...
And if they gonna invest resources for new content. let that be for retail... not for a ghost of the past that people cling desperately to try and relive some of their childhood...
I think this operates under the false premise that re-releases such as Classic and other games are "to relive some of their childhood." Classic is so different from retail in design philosophy and nostalgia is but only a small reason someone continues to play for 2 years of classic.
I think new content under the original design philosophy could still be an interesting endeavor, but it's not something I'm too passionate about. Overall I'm for more passionate about the negative consequences of the shop.
Defund the devs!
Defund the devs!
lets put them out of jobs so the game dies
While I agree that a cash shop for WoW is unhealthy for the game for many of the reasons you do, I also think you are vastly overemphasizing the content that is 'lost' as a result of it existing. Without a cash shop, there would just be fewer mounts/minions/toys in the game period, simply as a result of the work involved to deliver a full 'experience' compared to plopping an object in the store. Did we lose access to something through gameplay by virtue of the cash shop? Probably. Would we have even noticed or cared if the cash shop didn't exist? I have my doubts.
That's an interesting perspective. Would there be less overall? Ya I think you're right that there would be. Obviously this devolves into a Quality vs Quantity argument which is insanely subjective and also a bit nuanced. In terms of this discussion I lean on quality, but I get the point you're making.
We might not have noticed the problem but the thing is we do now. I think not knowing the lack of content existing for a certain reason is a matter of ignorance, but when the symptoms to a problem are open and exposed we can't just ignore it. Perhaps that's tech side of my brain thinking though lol
There won't be sellers if there are no buyers.
Always the truth, same goes with the gold sellers and bots.
Blizzard focuses more to make money, not to game it self.. that why wow been dying last 2+ expansions
What I always find interesting, and clearly not what you're saying here, but it's fascinating that people use the "Blizzard is a company" argument all the time to dismiss this type of practice. Business is FAR FAR more than "making money". It's about cultivating brand loyalty, good will, long term investments, short term investments, all of which are not necessarily raw money deals at the time.
Does it bother you enough to unsubscribe?
It does not. Thankfully we don't live a world so hyperbolic where the only options are to love something unconditionally or drop engagement with it entirely. I'm glad I can love something while also disagreeing about certain elements of it because nuance is important.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Yeah OK mate. Or.. you've built a channel around wow content and ur unwilling to flush it down the toilet for what you and I both know is the right choice.
@@jamiestwrt LOL!!! I don't make nearly enough money for the time spent on this channel to have that level of loyalty for that reason. If this channel didn't take off like it did I would just make more variety gaming content on my other channel. I do this because I enjoy it, and have for almost a decade. Absolutely nothing to do with some arbitrary loyalty to a channel with under 5k subs.
Yet, and here's where the power of nuance comes in to play. I can dislike this move that Blizzard has made and still enjoy the game.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Youre seriously telling me you're happy to give blizzard a sub fee after having made this video and your defense is "it's nuanced". I don't buy it.
@@jamiestwrt How I feel about a game and how I feel about a decision are different things. My feelings on a game can be a list of things, business model, progression, aesthetic, music, gameplay mechanics, uniqueness, etc. I absolutely despise how bad the 4 dungeons in Zelda Breath of the Wild are, but that's just one element of the game and I enjoy that experience as a whole. I'm not happy about how the cash shop of Final Fantasy 14 is implemented either, but I don't dislike it enough to not play the game. However, a game like Heroes of Newerth changed it's business model in a way that I thought negatively impacted the experience so much that I did end up no longer playing the game.
I also don't like the cash shop in Modern WoW, as I've made a whole video about that as well on this same channel. Yet I still play Shadowlands casually because while I think the cash shop's existence makes the game worse and I don't like it, it's not egregious enough to make me unsub on it's own. There are varying degrees of dislike and while I really dislike this change to TBC, it's not enough on it's own to make me no play at all. It might be but 1 reason I stopped playing someday, but it's not the sole reason at the moment.
Im scared bros. Is this the beggining of the end of classic?
Yes, yes it is.
I don't think so, hence why I tried to not paint this as a doom and gloom video. It's just a piece of the game that I think will make it worse, but I don't think this will be "the" definitive killer of the game. It might be for some people, but overall I don't think so. However, I don't think it's beneficial to Classic TBC in anyway and is only a negative so I'll still speak up against it.
truth
Phew, and here I thought I was lying.
Activision is a $65 billion company. Without a box cost, TBC Classic might make at most $50 million in profit over its entire lifecycle if you remove the people who would subscribe to retail anyways. Peanuts for them. Classic is being developed to appease the fans and undercut private servers for reputation/brand reasons - not to drive their financial results.
They make a deluxe edition because people like the deluxe editions and it subsidizes the game for the players who can't pay. This mount would not be added to the game if they couldn't charge for it - TBC development was done 15 years ago, they aren't adding in-game content. And I personally wouldn't want them to.
Your argument makes very little sense. These deluxe items hold no value or prestige. Everyone knows the rewards are just bought and are only important to collectors. The boost is another matter and is the only thing worth discussing because it removes the risk of a ban. I personally benefit from the boost and will use it on four accounts because I can, but it sucks for the people who can't. If they start talking about adding the token, then we have a real gripe.
"This mount would not be added to the game if they couldn't charge for it - TBC development was done 15 years ago, they aren't adding in-game content." Good point. Perhaps people would have been less upset if Classic and TBC Classic *had* had box prices, but I doubt it. I've listened to several people's arguments against the cash shop - people I very much respect and like, Zerbraxi and Taliesin in particular, but I just don't see an issue.
Could the effort put into designing these mounts have been used for in-game content that came free with the sub? Yes. Would we prefer getting it included with our sub instead of paying for it? Of course. But Blizzard is a for-profit company and is going to make as much of that profit as it can, and I have a hard time being outraged about people buying skins instead of getting them included with the game. The more money WoW in general, and Classic in particular, makes for Blizzard, the higher priority it becomes to decision-makers. Cash shop cosmetics generate a lot of money.
It would be very interesting to have an alternate dimension wherein we could see the health of the game in a world where there was no cash shop nor all the millions of dollars it's generated for Blizzard since that first pony sparkled, but we can only guess. I guess I just don't see a WoW that generates _less_ income for its company being a healthier game.
What would prevent Blizzard from adding content to TBC Classic? They have already added a pretty significant item to Classic WoW so the precedence as been set they aren't above "adding" to the game. You make the point that the deluxe items hold no value, which is the exact argument I made. Their complete lack of value only makes them cash prizes for nothing in return for the player. How is that a beneficial business practice? How does that benefit the player if it holds no value? Why would we not want content behind the rewards we receive? How is asking for content that precedes a reward from the cash shop a negative impact to the game? I'm not sure how my argument that I would like to have content behind the things I'm purchasing in a video game makes little sense. Isn't that the whole point of a game is the content within it?
@@ZerbraxiWoW The point is that it does not benefit the player, that's why it's a non-issue. It's worthless. They are not adding content because classic is classic in terms of content. The chronoboon is not content, it's a QoL update. TBC is what it is, they shouldn't add any content.
@@ceej010 Bummer. Was really hoping that buying something would give content. Really weird to buy something in a game for no content in return.
good
No you.
Why do we care if people buy cosmetic garbage? The core gameplay is not changing and they are not making a classic plus
Because that "cosmetic garbage" could and should be in game rewards from in game content. That would be a healthier game for everyone involved.
@@ZerbraxiWoW I can see that as a case for retail, but TBC isn't changing and it doesn't look like they care enough to do classic+
Blizzard is a dead company. Activison is calling the shots now and they’re going to put as many micro transactions in as possible
That’s their style
They've had a pretty strong influence since they're business partnership around the start of Wrath. Many people knew something like this was probably coming. Still isn't gonna stop me from complaining about it lol.
strayed too far from no changes imo
Something like this strays pretty damn far from SomeChanges as well I'd say.
Cash shop doesn't affect gameplay how about a video on how leatherworking is a trash profession with no benefit whatsoever with all gear being meh and now not even worth having a drummer in a party unless it's a healer who doesnt want to go lw
Why can't I make both of those videos? Just because the cash shop doesn't affect gameplay doesn't mean it also doesn't have other implications that can be negative for the game. Despite my often praise for TBC there are still issues I have with the game, as well as modern changes to WoW as a whole.
I don't always make my videos by priority of what I think is the worst or most impacting. Sometimes it's just what I'm feeling like at the moment or what's topical. Leatherworking is still an interesting discussion to me though so I'm sure I'll talk about that too.
@@ZerbraxiWoW just giving you a video idea lol I have never bought anything from a cosmetic store in a game dont understand why people do
More Subs for this man
Thank you! I hope you mean the sandwich "subs" cuz I'm a bit hungry as I type this lol.
Microtransactions are only ok in F2P games (as long as they are not pay to win). If I'm paying a subscription I am less likely to invest extra money on other stuff.
I see it like this. A game is "worth" X amount of money from me. Somewhere between 50-100 euro. If it's F2P that means I get a free "test period" and if I like the game I don't mind spending the money. If I'm already paying I'll hold tighter to my money, and also start considering cancelling my subscription once I reach the point where I feel I've spent enough on it.
I'm not entirely against cash shops at all, and you make some good points as to why. For example, I absolutely LOVE Guild Wars 2, probably too much. That game has a cash shop and I don't mind it. I still think they get a bit out of hand at times and more of the content should be in game, but I'm not against it because that's how they fund their continual development. Path of Exile is similar. I don't dislike it's shop despite thinking many of the items are overpriced, but it's a free game and they need to monetize.
Cash shops, Microtransactions, DLC, etc is all a rather nuanced topic. It's not as simple as good or bad. You seem to have a good head about the value of your own time and money though.
dude its just cosmetics they dont make u better in any way lol
The fact we've devolved our expectations from "it should be in game content" to "at least it's not pay to win" is a really worrying prospect.
I disagree, if classic and tbc make more money than current wow, then that will make blizz want to release more content like classic. Also Wrath had a cash shop and was my favorite xpac by far. Imo it had the best raids (with the exception of trial of crusaders, f that raid lol) and the bgs and arenas were more fun for me than any other xpac.
What do you mean with more content like classic? Do you really think they will do something different than just re-releasing the game?
Wrath was incredible, but it's important to note that the cash shop introduced 2 minipets in patch 3.2 and the Celestial Steed in 3.3. These were introduced at the end of the expansion but, it's also important to remember the outcry of when they were introduced. Wrath is great, absolutely, but something great can also have some huge stains. The fact the items weren't in the game as content is a misstep that Blizzard shouldn't have taken.
I get your intention when you point out that if Classic made more money than Shadowlands then Classic might get more/new content. However, it isn't just about making "more" per say. The development cost of Classic is fractions of Retail, yet through all data analytic websites it has over half the player base. The Return On Investment for Classic is massive, and ROI is a better metric than just raw gain since it's a bit more scalable and relative. From all we've heard thus far, the ROI of Classic is by far large enough to warrant better treatment.
Side note, I'm also looking forward to Wrath Classic at some point. See ya there!
@@ZerbraxiWoW i forgot about the pets and mount, i was thinking they had race and faction changes, realm transfers and maybe a name change from the start of wrath, but thats a long time ago, so i could be wrong. Also when i said "more content like classic" I meant (and hope lol) that future expacs will get back to being more like classic, like a more in depth talent tree, class identity and more of the rpg elements that were phased out over the years. Also do you have a video showing where you found that classic has 1.5x more players than shadowlands? Id definatley be interested in seeing that, because if thats so, its awesome news, at least for those of us that prefer classic.
@@fritzschnitzmueller3768 I mean making future retail expacs more like classic and yes, if classic is bringing in more money than retail I 100% believe they will.
It’s funny how half of the playerbase is mad. It’s 2021 not 2010. You can choose to spend your own money. Don’t like the deluxe edition? Don’t buy it. Pretty straightforward.
Its not about that. Did you even try to understand the arguments? Why are you throwing these dates in there? It does not even make sense. What do you want to say? There was no free will in 2010?
@@fritzschnitzmueller3768 I’m saying that gaming has advanced in the 11 years. Settle down turbo, maybe your mom will let you use her card to get the deluxe edition.
Why doesn't current year have any relevance in this?
Also, "just don't buy it" really misses the point. Yes, I can choose to not buy something I don't like. As a customer I will vote with my wallet about things I do and do not support. This type of cash shop doesn't provide content, just rewards, rewards that could and should be tied to in game content because that's what games are made of. People willing to pay more for less is up to them. Unfortunately, the amount of awesome cash shop items that exist in Shadowlands that could be content that other's don't get access to because none of it's in game is just one of many ways that it affects far more than just "don't buy it".
@@ZerbraxiWoW as a customer paying $15 a month you’ve already told them they can milk you, correct? Not everyone has hours and hours to play a game everyday. If they “just added it to existing content” odds are, most of the people will still never ride that mount. They are cosmetics, and honestly it’s nice to add a little fun to the game. Not every person who plays is the “guy spending months in his basement” this has become a much more casual game. Everyone was pissed about WoW tokens to until it was proven to slow down buying gold from another source.
Its like people forgot about TCG loot.
No people remember TCG but it was not like that just everybody could by the stuff . You really needed luck and it was still limited loot . You did not see see the TCG stuff often back in the day. You will see thousands of the store mounts in tbc and individualization is gone.
I didn't forget. Though to compare TCG loot with a direct in game shop is a bit disingenuous. One of these is cross promotion of products, the other is the one I made a video about here. My thoughts on TCG loot, and if it was good or not, is a whole other issue that I might talk about one day because it has different implications than this cash shop.
ffs man
I like the username lol.
im okay with them adding a new mount, but Path of Illidan is lame. If they are gonna add something like that they should also add something cooler that is similar that is very challenging to get in the open world.
Personally I would like to see all of it in game, but I think the premise you set about the Path of Illidan is exactly why I feel that way.
I don't know how to comment this without coming off as an ass but;
Some constructive criticism: I would suggest swallowing a bit more before speaking. At times it sounds like your mouth is overflowing with saliva.
I really hope you don't take offense but rather take this as just a possibility to improve the audio, that's all!
It's just cuz I'm too busy SPITTING facts!
No offense taken. I'll try and be more attentive to this and see how I can make it better. Thanks.
Doomsayers the lot of you
Woah woah woah, to be fair, I never presented this as a doom and gloom argument. In fact, I even preface with the fact that we don't know if a Cash Shop is officially announced beyond what we have here with these items. This video exists to setup the argument as to why I don't think it's healthy for the game. I think it makes the game worse, but I don't think it kills the game. I'm very rarely ever so hyperbolic like that.
@@ZerbraxiWoW I did like your point that the items in the cash shop should be tied to in-game content. But imo if this revenue justifies to Blizzard ongoing classic maintenance and dev time, it's worth it. As long as there's never power gains that is.
Why do people CARE about cash shops? If you don't like it, don't use it. Sheesh, special snowflakes everywhere. If someone wants to spend their money to buy cosmetic pixels, wtf is YOUR problem?
Is this supposed to be an argument?
Let me rephrase: Did you even try to understand people? Can you explain to me what you think the problem is?
If you watched through my whole video and you don't know my stance as to the why, then I've failed in my approximately 6 times I mentioned my thesis. These types of shops don't provide any additional content in the game, but instead are a dopamine fix for a reward with nothing else attached to it. Less content in game means less content for everyone, including those buying the product. That's just a very short summation as to why. Contrary to popular belief, yes, other people buying these does affect those who do not. Dev time now goes into the crafting of the reward instead of the crafting of an in-game quest in order to obtain the reward.
@@fritzschnitzmueller3768 what problem? How does a cash shop for COSMETICS affect your gameplay and how is that a problem?
@@ZerbraxiWoW You didn't fail anything, the video was very good and everything was well explained and rationalized.
However, bottom line is : It's COSMETICS, not a weapon, not an armor, not something that will affect anyone's gameplay, so having a shop will not affect people like me, who simply don't use it.
Regarding content, no one wants extra content, they want the vanilla experience. It's nostalgia - people want to re-live their 20s or whatever, who cares if Blizzard put in a cash shop for cosmetics? It's not going to affect my gameplay and it shouldn't really affect anyone's gameplay. It's vanity items, which do not affect gameplay. Let them milk it, what's our problem? Why should we care? We just wanna level up toons, kill Illidan, grind dungeons in TBC etc.
You gotta pay for tbc?
Thankfully not this time around for Classic specifically, though the development cost and product sale for TBC already occurred so in essence it's still applicable to this discussion.
I’m so sick of these no changes cry babies.
Since when am I No Changes? Or is that an assumption based on a single disagreement I have that just so happens to be a change?
Deluxe edition rewards were a thing in TBC when it released. Since we are in 2021 not 2007 now I would argue releasing a digital deluxe with rewards while it isn’t “NO CHANGES” still captures the spirit of that classic TBC deluxe edition at the time.
Collectors Editions muddy the waters on this conversation a lot because there's also a physical reward most of the time. There's also the fact that there's a difference between Single Player games vs Multiplayer vs MMO as to what should and shouldn't be acceptable. I didn't spend too much time on that piece itself on the video because it could seriously be a whole video in and of itself.
Gotta disagree with you on this one.
good explanation
All good, it happens. We're not gonna agree on everything. I only hope that I can setup my arguments in a respectable manner and will happily engage in discussion.
Clickbait title and opinion. Which is fine. But you are posting about things you despise while trying to get views to get money from Google. Ironic?
Sorry mate, I do not completely agree with your take on this OR stating any sort of deluxe edition is the same thing as what we all understand and commonly accept as a "cash shop"
I suppose it's clickbait but the title of my video is the literal thesis of my video that I conclude. If I wanted to do better clickbait I would've said like "Classic TBC Cash Shop KILLS WOW!" or something. Instead I listed my thesis and conclusion to my point.
Also, I don't despise WoW, Classic, or TBC. I absolutely love these games, but reality is nuanced, not black and white. I can love something while also not liking other elements. For example, Ocarina of Time is my personal favorite game and I think the design of the quest to open Jabu Jabu's Belly is poor and incomplete. It makes for a worse experience but that isn't the same as a bad experience.
I'm cool if people don't agree though, seriously. I find these types of discussions fascinating and I love to hear everyone's perspective. I appreciate your feeedback.
Just don't buy it.
It's not about don't buying it dude..
I'm not planning on it. However, even if I did buy it, what in game content comes along with this? If I buy a mount what in game activity am I getting for the money I'm spending? If the answer is none, then what benefit does that have to me as the player for the game I'm playing?
That's why you don't buy it. If you feel like you need content for an item to be in game, then you shouldn't buy it because there's no content for you. Seems like a personal decision...
This made me think. I completely agree with everything said and before now never knew I had a issue with a cash shop.
It’s temping for me as I’m a father, husband, management for a company and due to that grinding gold or mounts is tough but after watching this I for one will not be buying this and will just rather spend a year+ leveling and grinding in order to keep early wow special. Since wrath (when I stopped playing) I’ve had a void in gaming and straight up stopped for years. Classic brought me back and I don’t want to contribute to losing what I’ve missed for years.
This is actually really heartwarming to hear. I've played WoW both from pushing top 50 World hardcore, to extremely casual logging in a couple hours a week. I've always found that skipping content via Blizzard's new patch model, or by having the cash shop not provide in game content actually hurts the casual player more than they think.