Meet the Warhammer pro raising the bar of competitive play
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Stephen Box is the founder of @VanguardTactics he's a pro Warhammer player, and a man looking to change the scene for the better. We travelled to Warhammer Fest in Manchester earlier in the year to follow him through Games Workshop's official Warhammer 40K tournament, to get an insider's look at competiting at the top level.
While there we watched him face the very things he rallies against, even dealing with poor sportsmanship and potential cheating. Stephen is looking to make the competitive scene better, friendlier and more open. We spoke to him to about how he's changings things and how he wants to encourage new players to feel less imtimidated to join through his programs, and his personal code of conduct he takes to games.
If you're interested in learning how to play Warhammer 40k competitively and would like to sign up for Stephen's courses, you can get an exclusive 10% discount as a Dicebreaker Member: www.dicebreaker.com/subscribe
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Clarification: in our interview, Stephen stated that his opponent received a red card for his conduct at the event. Dicebreaker understands that this is not entirely accurate despite it being what Stephen believed to have happened at the time of recording. When asked for an update, Stephen informed us that, to his knowledge, the player received a points deduction for his actions in the game shown in the video, and also had his victory reversed in his subsequent match. Following that, the player voluntarily quit the tournament.
We'd like to make it clear that this video is not an invitation to send abuse or vitriol to Stephen's opponent. We had a verbal agreement from said opponent to be filmed as part of our coverage of the event, but we don't condone anyone searching for this person's personal information and targeting him with harrassment. The player has received punishment for his actions from the tournament organisers already.
Thanks so much to Stephen for letting us film him throughout the event, please go give them a follow over at @VanguardTactics (Link in description)
This stinks @dicebreaker
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Don’t condone searching for his personal information “
You know what would have stopped that? Not showing his face or clothes. Such two faced work by this channel.
Bunch of bullshit by you guys to show the opponent’s face, have Stephen Box wax on about how it was without right of reply
@@sirath35it may be the footage that they received . I’ve been lucky enough to experience good attitude with peers at the local store in weekly matches and a tournament I attended. In saying that, if you conduct yourself in a certain way, your gonna draw attention to your actions
@@dildoswaggins2907 so they could edit and cut the footage together but couldn’t edit or cut out the player they are witch hunting?
@@sirath35what is your basis for claiming there is a witch hunt? If the player received a points deduction and ban then it was already adjudicated by tournament judges that he cheated. They don't make decisions like that lightly, there normally has to be really repeated behaviour and complaints from multiple players before something like that ever happens.
@@sirath35the point also was to not carry on like a wanka in the first place. People also have every right to record and speak freely. Also I mean witch hunt? Most players I’ve met couldn’t knock the froth off a cappuccino. I think he will not be in any danger
I love his attitude of being as competitive as possible but still maintaining good sportsmanship.
I wish more people had both. So many lack sportsmanship.
@@LikeMadCopsthey lack honor
I would argue you can't be a true sportsman without being as competitive as possible. To not do so is a disrespect to the game and your opponent.
Yeah it's wild how rare this stuff is in the tabletop community, it's a big factor of why I left.
Kinda why i like watching the 40k in 40min dudes
Self accountability is huge. His spirit of doing things correctly and ownership of mistakes is something that everyone, including myself, need to have.
The aim is to win, the point is to have fun. Absolutely agree sportsmanship is key.
I think you will find that plenty of players in 40k as well as many other actual sports play for fun first and wins secondarily… not everything is about winning, many lessons in life are learned in loss and when not competing at all. Cheers 😊
@@D-Z321 oh yeah, that’s kind of what I’m implying there. You try to win because that’s respecting your opponent, and you should expect the same from them…but the REAL reason, the point, is to have fun. Bring the armies you want to play, make awesome models, play like you care, respect your opponent, be gracious in victory and defeat, give new players the advice and space to grow.
i always thought it was about the story you create? even losing is a win, if it is done with epic proportions.
@@Just_Flipy As I was once told by a game designer "If you're both having fun you're not playing it wrong."
Nobody who wants to WIN in a comp has FUN !...the two are diametrically opposed.
Loved this. I used to play WarMachine casually with friends, and one friend in particular was real loose with his measuring, often giving himself an extra half inch or an inch, and it drove me crazy every time. I'd watch him place something where he's wrong so incredibly obviously but he's moved the mini before I can speak up, and his reaction was always to lift the tape when he looked at me to talk, so the correct starting place would always be "I thought it was here" when I tried to shift it back to where it was, and because I was never 100% certain I felt like I was being the asshole if i were to press the issue, and some of those moments were CRITICAL and his hitting where he should have fallen short cost me the game.
I've gone off the deep end on some of my closest friends for this exact reason.
I have stopped everything, and told my friend to be honest with me, because I know he cheated on purpose, and for him to just come honest with me. Full on stop and have a discussion right there.
When they back pedal and start gaslighting me saying I'm crazy or wrong blag blah blah, that's when you KNOW you're correct. These people will stop at nothing to not get caught
this man is the definition of codex compliance
Space wolves would like to know your current location.
Guilliman would be proud.
We need more people like this in the community. The amount of people I know for a fact have won plenty of games purely because their opponent felt too uncomfortable to call out incorrect plays etc... people will try their luck if they think they can get away with it.
Thank you
My very first 2k game the guy had some super meta list that was, as it turns out, not even legal and would just recite rules from the top of his head and anytime he did something dodgy he'd just look at me and go "Right? fine with that?"
Like he knew i wouldn't know any better and took advantage of that. Apparently next game he lost trying to cheese his way to a win and whined the whole time
Even watching a video like this raises my heart rate and stress levels. I visited tournaments for a while as friends played in them and always found them incredibly unwelcoming places. When I eventually took part in one myself it was such a shame. 75% of the people I came across were so nice and the games I played were really fun but the other 25% was so toxic, so aggressive and very much ruined the overall experience for me. The irony being that it was my first (and to this day only) tournament and I ended up winning it by one point - the bonus point for sportsmanship. As much as I love the game I would be very hesitant to ever return to a tournament as I just get so stressed at any personal conflict and they seemed full of exactly that.
I know where you're coming from. As I've gotten older I've become so allergic to drama and confrontation, yet many sit in front of the TV and watch it every night. Some people thrive on it.
Call judges over when players are being toxic - it's not acceptable, ever.
@@mitch3384 Play solo 40k like i do.
Yeah i even have toxic games in the local community. There is always something like ''well u won but your army is busted'' and stuff like that. Maybe some tournaments are different but i don't really want to pay quite a lot of money to attend to an event which isn't fun at all. It's mostly painting and building for me
@@richardbradley2335 No that's just sad. Play with friends and guys from the game shops you know are decent guys. It's a social game
If there were more players like Stephen in my local scene I would still be playing now.
I worry a lot that I overcommunicate actions and intent to my opponents but after seeing stuff like this, its pretty comforting to know how valuable that is and how far it can go in avoiding feelsbad moments in competitive play.
Agreed. I think though theres a line between "good" communication and "excess" communication.
I don't really play competitive, but even in my games I find it really helpful knowing EXACTLY what's going on, so please keep doing it!
@@gearboxmerc1291 its standard in MTG to announce all you moves, and something that competitive 40k should adapt
The best compliment I've gotten recently was from someone in the local meta who I had never played before. I tabled him T3 in a pickup game, but he said that even though the game itself was one sided, he had a great time because he enjoyed playing with me and my sportsmanship.
Nice win
Thats what its all about, ive been STOMPED with bad rolls but these things happened lol
I've been collecting, painting and playing 40K since 1992. I absolutely love the lore, the models, and painting. It has been my experience that at FLGS games, local tournaments and any situation where you are playing against someone who isn't a good or close friend, people cheat. A LOT of people cheat. They abuse the rules, and if and when you call them on it, they feign ignorance. It has been so pervasive over such a lengthy period of time, I refuse to take the time to play against someone who isn't an important part of my life outside of 40K. It really sucks. In one instance, many years ago, it was actually the proprietor of a FLGS that I caught 'bending the rules'. As a result, my 40K hobby is strictly something that I do with family and friends. I would love to go to a large Warhammer event, but there is no way I could ever be persuaded to spend the money to travel to a large tournament, only to run up against a cheater, or many cheaters.
I think this is a really important point. To prioritize good conduct and sportsmanship over victory. Otherwise wining doesn’t mean anything anymore.
If all gamers were like Stephen "Old Man" Box it would be one of the most wholesome things to do. He truly is a legend and has done a lot to improve the game!
If by improve you mean trash to the point of mindlessness. . .
@@hunterreams9992 we found the cheat 😂
@@hunterreams9992strange way to admit you cheat
I thought I recognised Stephen from the first second. Super weird seeing someone who you've heard of/met in the fitness industry also working in a completely different niche industry. Super cool.
I do like Stephen, he's probably not got the biggest platform in the influencersphere but it's a nobel cause he's pursuing and I'm glad he's brought these sorts of conversations into the mainstream a bit more in a levle headed sort of way.
I meet Steven at Warhammer fest the first i ever seen this guy. He was on the way back to the table and i stop him to say hi. Even though he had a game he stop to say hi and asked me some questions about he hobby. He is one of the most kind hearted person i meet. I hope this guy reached the top as he deserves it. 🎉🎉
Thank you mate and great to meet you
He's definitely good for the culture. He's got the right attitude when it comes to enjoying the game while remaining competitively focused.
The goal of any game I play isn’t to win, but to play a good game, no errors, no fouls and no one walks away from the table feeling like the time was wasted. I’m still learning tabletop war gaming, and look forward to playing more.
Thats good to hear
Some guys can be pretty toxic in 40k, even in local games.
Ive even seen guys who cheat snd get rude...like lol, we are all here for a table top game and have a good time!
This was a really fascinating insight into an entrire facet of the 40k community I never even knew existed. To see someone who is willing to uphold such respect for other players and sportsmanship whilst also promoting a professionalism and clear skill at ANY game is really interesting. I just didn't know that the pro curcuit was so.... well, professional!
Such a great insight and really topical when there's such infighting between tournament and casual players in the hobby community. Your code of conduct echos the ones listed in the rulebooks (which people sometimes skip). I think there's a level of respect needed here for the perspective you can give from all the tournaments and hours of play you have clocked up compared to the sweeping generalisations from people who've not been to a tournament in years or ever. I find it bizarre that there's people in the same hobby who give grief to others for playing the game the way they want but also promoting a healthy mindset applicable to all games whether competitive or floorhammer with your mate.
Stephen has always been one of the classiest players in the world and a real inspiration, thank you guys so much for such an amazing video
Thanks so so much James
I’m not a player I’m just a painter and collector but I do love these insights into the tournament side of things. Great video
I sadly only met Steve once but he was an absolute gent even spending time going through a game i had to help me understand where i went wrong lovely guy.
Thanks so much
The best kind of competition is a kind the business world apparently cannot understand.
If you help your opponent after the game and they get better, you have a new bar to raise yourself to.
With everyone helping everyone, there's a great deal of improvement across the board.
Thanks for the opportunity to share my views. If anyone has any questions I am happy to answer as much as I can.
Please note I used the term “red card” simply for the purpose of keeping the video and content somewhat familiar. There was no card handed out, a 10 point reduction then a reversal of a game result.
Can you elaborate further on the army wide rule this player was abusing?
@Bladelighting08 Judging by the army, I'd guess it was either SoF or a Craftworld rule. Rolling before choosing to use a fate dice seems like a good guess?
VT, I am in your corner on this topic. You’re fighting the good fight.
I do wonder about a narrative that might be building, where you become the face of any rules “fuss”. And this may detract from, or overshadow, the actual message you’re trying to send.
Eg “oh it’s VT, and we are talking about a tournament infraction, here we go again…..”
I suppose it comes with the territory?
In any case, keep fighting the fight and help our tournaments be an inviting place with fair play and sportsmanship. We don’t have to be friends, but surely we can roll dice and bond a little over shared interest in the game.
Stephen Box is a legend , would love to have a game with him one day
Thanks so much
I've come across people (and sometimes been the person) who wants to win so much they make the game less fun for other people, some people I know have read rules only in their own favour, hidden information and set new players up for failure. I personally am currently working on making quicker decisions because I have been told that I drag games out.
This video is a good reminder that if I want to keep playing with people who are good to play with I need to also be good to play with and be a better part of the community myself.
Stephen Box (from the battle reports and other content I've seen) is a prime example of the Spike psychographic profile, and a great example of the positive qualities that a Spike brings to the game which are often ignored. Moreso in wargaming than MTG, the kind of player who rejects a win in which a rule was forgotten or broken especially in that player's favor is vital to the health of the gaming community.
Only seen him in battle reports, good to see some background info.
Mad respect for Stephen now.
Thank you mate
If Boxey flipped a coin it would land on the side - that's how balanced he is.
Haha 😂
Head, tails or side?
Met Stephen at an LVO couple years back. What an absolute gentleman!
Helluva interview - great watch. Kudos to Stephen!
Hi Stephen. Great insight video which has spawned a mixed bag of reactions.
I am 100% behind you on making people see that etiquette and honesty makes things so much more relaxed and fun. I am a boardgamer who just enjoys playing, win or (mainly) losing. Yet, if I find I got a rule wrong, I feel gutted and indeed there have been times where I have altered things to favour my opponent for my innocent mistake.
If I can teach someone how to win......I would start by teaching them how to lose.
It's not easy trying to get certain people not to cheat. A cheating win is no win at all.
All the best to you in making things friendlier, but some just can't help themselves. It's a tough one.
I couldn’t agree more. I was torn about even talking about this game as I didn’t want to show the other side as they are such rare occasions
It is always good to show that side because it develops the skill of coping with, and how to sort it out. Which, in most cases it could just be an innocent oversight, but in some cases of course it is someone 'trying' to get away with his own interpretation of a rule, or in plain English.......cheating.
Just happened on the day you filmed. Yet I think having that included displayed your mission for sportsmanship. Well done to you sir.
Lol yeh I lose more than I win. I just like charging and fighting with blood angels 😎
@@VanguardTacticsyeah I feel you there dude, but good on you for showing it too.. it's the side that happens rarely but when it does it's the one everyone will hear about.
Seen these guys at LVO this year. Seemed like good dudes and all conducted themselves professionally.
This was actually a lot of fun to watch, best of luck to you Stephan and all the Vanguard guys & gals in 10th edition!
Appreciate that
thank you for this video, very inspiring. Stephen does seem like a totally genuine guy and by proxy, dicebreaker gets a sub from me! Great stuff dudes
What a wonderful individual, can't hear enough from Stephen Box and Vanguard Tactics!
Messing up the rules is something I do easily, and it would have ended my tournament attendance if it wasn't for the fact that the people i play against know I'm dyslexic and get stuff wrong and are so happy to help me learn from my mistakes. I feel very fortunate to be part of a positive and supportive gaming community. It's good to have more people who push for that!
This is absolutely right. I have dyslexia also and we all get things wrong from time to time. The difference is being able to admit that you are wrong and be happy with the result. It’s about ownership and then learning opportunities.
@@VanguardTactics Absolutely, a rule for life to be honest!
Great video and a great conversation to have.
I'm really glad to know that my super nasty experience at a local RTT isn't an isolated incident, happier to see people trying to work on it.
A lot of people in these comments who haven't watched the video but are just dying to share their opinions.
Great interview I love his attitude. I have never played Warhammer 40k I'm a D&D player. but I love his attitude
So pumped to be part of the academy this year!
Stephen is doing some very important work, the community needs people like him who uphold sportsmanship and conduct as a fundamental aspect of this. Who wants to spend hundreds of dollars and hours investing into playing this only to get treated badly by their opponent?
Stephens super inspiring, the more competitive 40K players there are like him the better the game is. The culture of sportsmanship in warhammer has turned around so hard over the past 5 years and it’s incredible to see, the tournament scene feels healthier than it’s ever been at the top.
I got a spray bottle of Acetone on the hip at all times in case someone acts silly. Clint Eastwood shot from the hip and that painted bonus gone.
Great video, guys.
There is no satisfaction for me in not playing fair. I like winning but only when I earn it.
I actually met Stephen at this event and didn't really have an amazing interaction, some of that is definitely on me and my expectation, but I can see the kinda day he was having and it makes sense
It’s all about sportsmanship. I am new to AoS and did my first tournament recently. Low stakes, I made plenty of mistakes. I did exactly what you do, when I made a mistake, and recognized it, I would make sure that my correction benefited my opponent. At the end of the day, you want to hopefully play with these people again. I never wanted to play in tournaments, because I’m not competitive. I had a blast, because it’s not about winning or losing to me. I finished dead last and lost every game, but I went from being tabled in round one, to barely losing my final match. Made some friends along the way. Thank you for sharing! I feel like I learned a thing or two.
Would love a game with Stephen - I play tennis and yeah, when the game is competitive you find players that call balls out when they were on the line. I like to give a ball call in when possible as I want the same treatment - sportsmanship is key to any game.
Playing a game with Stephen would be great fun and it’d be competitive, most importantly it’d be fair.
As an AOS tournament player we see a lot less of this but its still there. I think our community find it easier to call a judge when it's a rules question as GTs we tend to get 100 players compqired to 40ks 500. So maybe it feels less like a big issue to call someone over when in a bigger crowd. Hats of to pushing for more fair play within the gaming community though, calling a rules check should not be a big issue and there should be more peole like you helping people understand it's cool to do. I have played against some of the best oponeants in Europe and not one has had an issue with me saying I want a quick look at how something works. Big respect to wanting to help make this the norm in all games.
This is a great interview and is applicable to any competitive game.
Amazing video - I've yet to play a tournament in 40k, but I used to play them in MTG a lot. There was a time that I made a fatal problem and realised a turn later, which meant it was too difficult to roll back, and my opponent hadnt noticed, but I called a judge over on myself and asked them what to do and I forfeited that game, which led to my opponent taking the round.
If you cant play fair, there's no point in playing at all.
Having good character is what wins you at life in the long run. Responsibility is something we could all do more with
This are very compelling arguments and, even though I am not W40k player but a BattleTech player and too do have to cope with quite a lot of rules, I know from experience that communication, clarity and being truthful really are the very foundation of what makes the tabletop wargaming tournaments exciting.
I just want to say thank you Stephen! You were the one who learn me 9th ed with your acadami videos. I realy have a problem with blaming the "luck". But I know I could have done alot of things better to insteed improve my odds of scoring. But at the end of the day, it's all about having a good time. So thank you and your team!❤
As a MTG player, I always try to make sure that we communicate EVERYTHING we're doing effectively. Unfortunately there's a handful of dishonest players that can ruin the experience.
Like Stephen said, don't be afraid to call a judge to double check something if you're unsure or uncomfortable. Just be a good sport and an even better worthy opponent.
I've played 40k, Warhammer Fantasy and MESBG for 20 years and have never been interested in tournament play. I vastly prefer playing for fun, I'm not competitive in the least! I'm told by many friends that the MESBG tournament scene is vastly different to the 40k scene, much more relaxed, friendly and themed so maybe one day I'll play in one of those!
Im new to the game and come to tournies for social reasons only, its just 3 random games in a day. I really dread games with people that club you with rules rather then trying to work through them together. I like stating my intent up front and resolving any disputes of whats happening before dice are rolled, and its really annoying when people hold their disputes till after things are locked in cause it will be to their benefit.
Agreed, play to intent is definitely how it should be done. Still, I have encountered people who have such a basic and fundamental misunderstanding of how the rules work that it results in accidental 'gotcha' moments, simply because I didn't think to explain something like how attack rolls work. That is at my LGS though, I don't really play tournaments.
I played in the casual tournament that was going on at the same time had 3 great matchs.. i got a chance to watch a bit of one of stephens matches. And one other vanguard member. I thought both players where on another level.. and playing fair..
Watched this from beginning to end. Very interesting. While I fully respect the guys who play in tournaments and why they do it, this video definitely confirms that it will never be for me. This isn’t a surprise for me but it is useful to have it confirmed so utterly. Many thanks for the video, a really good watch 👍
P
In my only tournament i did a really big mistake that won me the game, sure i could have done it differently if i remembered, but i didnt so i conceded the game and talked with the organizers.
I forgot that my riptide wasnt a core unit, so it held a point when it shouldnt have.
it would have been my first ever win, but it didnt feel right
This is such an interesting topic.
As a kid I got into table top games like Mage Knights,
But some high schoolers and university students would throw fits after loosing.
So much so it just became unfun to win/try.
My brother would lose his temper at ever little thing even if he was winning. He's better now after a lifetime of gaming, but in the early days, he was that guy.
Every last word he says, I totally support and think the same way
I got the same drive, I want to be the best general, but I feel not good enough with the rules to go to a tournament
Damn, what a guy! Subscribed to his channel from this alone.
So I’ve watched Vanguard Tactics videos and listened the podcast but this video gave insight in to who Stephen Box really is and I’ve got to say I’m impressed.
I love playing games but I’m old and I hate the drama that sometimes comes with tournament play. In the past I was really in to playing Magic the Gathering tournaments but quit because of cheating I saw, how other players made me feel guilty when I won and just some horrible experiences. I’ve always assumed that 40K tournaments would be the same so I’ve only ever played in a few local tournaments. I’ve played against other random people locally but just a few tournaments.
My experiences haven’t been horrible, I won the painting portion of one tournament, but people had no problem commenting on how horrible my army was because I play Ultramarines. Lots of eye rolling. It just kind of put me off. I really don’t care what they think but by the time a couple of players make comments it just hasn’t been worth it to me to continue playing. I’d rather just get together with friends.
After watching this video I feel like I should give tournament play another shot, once I’m comfortable with 10th edition. Hopefully there will be more players like Stephen at the tournaments. I’m not too worried about winning I just want my opponent and I to have a good time and I’d like to get a little better each time I play.
I know no one is going to bother to read this long post but I have to say thanks Stephen you’ve inspired me to go to another tournament and try again.
I read it! And I agree. I played Magic as a kid. The one tournament I won my final opponent threatened me outside of the store afterwards. I was 11.
Turned me off that side of card and tabletop games for a long long time. But I'm older and I'm building my first 40k army and I think I might give it another shot if people like Stephen are involved and trying to improve things.
I read it and look forward to seeing back at events. Thank you
Thank you for making a video about this professional player.
I just started painting 40k again after a 20 year break, with no intention of playing games. Until now, I might have to dust the dice off! Great video 🙌🏻👍🏻
Also, more warhammer content, please. A spotlight on the Age of Sigmar community would be extra excellent.
If you cheat there’s two outcomes
One it will become a habit and it will catch up with you when you get careless
Two of you do make it to the top and your found out you’ve ruined the competitive integrity for everyone else and no one will want to play
I am new to 40K . Really would love to learn it . I’ve had one 500pt game .
I have played this game for many years and I have enjoy the challenge, but I want others to see the fun of it, so I will loose purposely on new players because of my experience, to see that moment of greatness and achievement on their face on a half weird painted army is priceless, and I enjoy that. I want them to love the game. Teaching them what they could have done better is the reward.
Absolutely.
For every one person who brings a pristine carry case of marines 'because they are easier to transport around', there needs to be someone older and wiser that is willing to bring a car load of 'the bad guys' to keep this game going for the new players to keep learning and developing.
Nothing in this game will ever be so rewarding as playing a really unpredictably fun game with an excited new player when you are willing to bring the Ork, CSM or Tyranids.
It honestly never gets old, especially at 1000 pts or less. Especially when it is on a small table at 500-750 and they get to see their characters doing something.
Thats really nice of you
It can be tough to get into thr hobby and a lot of players can be real pricks
Kudos!
@@scarletskunkjob9842Thats what its about
Ive had a great time even losing and getting trash rolls lol
Never played this before but love the passion behind it
Incredible insight!
I just got back into 40k for the first time since 05 and this video gives me hope for future tournament s ill be playing
Also why isn't a gopro apart of every round played?
Amazing video. Sadly it's players like that that stop myself and others in my local gaming group from entering tournaments.
this guy is a gem
This was a excellent video. Stephen Box seems like such a nice guy. He has such a love for the game and wanting to see everyone have a good time playing it.
Thank you
Stephen seems like a gent. I wish him all the best in his pursuits.
Thank you very much.
3:05 I've been playing exclusively local tournies in Aus and I can see where the sentiment comes from. Out of towners who take things way too seriously, meta chase, chess clock (even when they rock up 15 mins late), uniform + bum bag combo, and slagging off to their budies about BCP rankings.
It sours my enthusiasm for larger comps that I know could be fun and challenging
Ayee Aussie here too
Yeah, I get what you mean, I personally dont mind what others do for outfits, bumbags or caring about rankings as long as the game ends up being grounded, fun and you both work together to get the game done right
Yeah mate, i totally hear you, for me there's always one really self-conceited, cocky, know-it-all wherever i go (not its not me lol) just abrasive and rude, makes you wonder with an attitude like that if he has any mates.
It's sad that AoS is slowly becoming like this
@@aenglezos the rankings thing was while I was scoring well in my first game against the new guard Dex last year (ft unpainted kasrkin) and his buddy came over and said "wow can't believe you're losing to rank #6035" as if they'd obviously theorised I'd be a pushover and still didn't weren't respecting me as a peer despite traveling 3+ hours to come to my town to play.
It's not the uniform or bum bag that's the issue, it's people who fit the stereotype too well.
This was the same game the guy came 15 mins late, and then set up a chess clock
what hes saying about owner ship and not blaming dice is huge, i come from a competetive tcg background (wanting to become competetice in 40k) and people do the same with draw order or oh opponent drew right answer at the right time, but there were options the losing player could do to beat those.
I wish more people had this kind of attitude, especially in competitive gaming.
This actually made me pull out my rule book and do a deep dive into world eaters in rules. (9th edition because of my game group we all started in 9th and we are way more casual.) Just to see if I am mucking up my rules on accident I want to play better so that I know that I would rather come to a game correct than not.
Myself and another bloke wrote the first tournament rules for the Grand Tournament for GW in the 90's. We envisioned a nationwide competetive system like there is today, full of fun, fellowship, and friends. There were scores for composition, painting, theme, and sportsmanship as well of course as best general. The first year was a blast and only a few ppl took it too seriously. There was zero money awarded, just goofy trophies and your pic in White Dwarf. Fast forward two years later and we had to disqualify a person for placing their penis on the table out of spite during an argument. It went downhill real quick once they started upping the awards and got rid of sportsmanship scores and painting requirements.
I havent played a tabletop game in a long time, but this reminds me of a Heroclix tournament I was in decades ago. I called the opposing player on an illegal play, and it became somewhat heated. At the end of the game he won, and I offered my hand and congratulated him on a good game. He was completely taken aback. I explained to him that I thought he played well, and I called him on the rule because rules make the game. He went from being extremely combatative to friendly and joking in a couple of minutes.
There are a lot of things I am not happy with about 10th so far but the reduction in rules and the focus on datasheets solves a number of these issues present in this instance.
I wonder with the idea of groups like the vanguard group if you could start having a team match up. Each team has a player Vs player match and you tally up the total points and the team with the most points wins.
When my son started getting involved with tournament play we played at an annual event run by a hobby club. The 40k tournament was a team event in which each army was playing to a larger strategic goal which had consequences for the tournament. So as a 16 year old my son was taking on adults but was not an actual member of the club and learned through the school of hard knocks how to play. For example, in the edition rule set cover had an unlimited vertical height. So when 5 terminators hid behind a wrecked ork trukk, (Think Gorka Morka trukks) they could not be seen to be targeted and the other player readily showed him the rule in the book. No Problem.
Third game in the opponent picked up his rule book while I was away from the table. He claimed it was his and refused to allow my son to check rules with him on the basis that he should have brought his own rule book. When this individual put the book down I picked it up because I caught a glimpse of something. He said leave it that is my book. I said then why does it have my son's name on the inside cover. The guy stopped dead and apologised before saying where is my book. I pointed out he had been using this book to unfair gain from the start. So he looked in his army box and there was another rule book. I wanted my son to call the ref' over, but, to my mind he was naïve and accepted the guys explanation that it was a mistake. No apology mind you. I should have insisted but I was not a part of that tournament. My son simply fled the table while inflicting casualties from shooting.
I had a word with some one casually after that and they kept an eye on him. But I needed time away from the tables to control my temper because I was genuinely pissed off. More so than if it had been me I think. Luckily this taught my son to pay attention in the future and as he got older that kind of thing did not get past a ref's call.
Accountability is my favorite word here. We have all felt those feelings creep when we have been in a game awhile and we could do something that is maybe beneath how we would act on turn 1 or in our minds because so much time has been invested and every move is calculated to achieve victory and for some people it's such an easy stretch to go from wanting to win to needing to win. The most important thing to remember is it really doesn't mean anything. You have different matchups that could be good or bad there are hundreds of tournaments rankings are always changing so the only thing that matters is how you felt about the win. We need to find ways to make the competitive side of the hobby feel more self accountable. You shouldn't wait for a judge or the other player to hold you to standards we have to hold ourselves to them.
We can talk about sportmanship as much as we want, and i'm absolutely on the same side as Stephen's, but if tournament organizers tends to have a blind eye on certain players the situation won't improve for the better. Last plague i saw were slow players that tends to score 20-30 points in the first 2 rounds all while slow playing so you can't play all rounds and give you the chance to score more points.
Out of curiosity what was the context behind what that player was trying to do and get around that was not correct?
Hopefully I'll get to roll some dice against Stephen in some events in 10th, like MWG's Dave, just the kind of person who's fun to play against and is a great standard bearer for the hobby.
Would love to meet Steve at some point. Def a pillar of the community along with the likes of Dave.
This conversation firmly belongs within the parameters of appropriate tournament play. I have not yet been able to play enough games to justify a schedule that supports this kind of play. I agree 100% with the "you don't owe anything to your opponent" My concession to tournament play happened during 8th and I've taken a huge break to focus on school and work instead. 10th edition is here and I feel very much that regimented tournament play cannot be sustained, especially in the states. Hyper competitive focused game play wears down play groups or creates a rift of players. As a person who paints more than plays, what's keeping me away is the level of boundary pushing and ounces of advantage players can pull from their interpretation of their rules. I'm very much a player who prefers a two player game of warhammer having a game master, TO, judge, or player in a different game who wants to help provide a fair representation of what the game being played is. I'm interested in hearing more and glad that you and your team are providing some sort of structure to this dice driven hobby space.
I played in a GW store against a "tournament player" many years ago and it was the least friendly and fun game i'd ever had.
"you would lose points in a tournament for that" about almost anything I had in my list
"that wouldn't happen with average dice rolls" about almost any lucky thing I did on the board
What a wonderful spirit of sportsmanship to have in any sport. Perhaps the onus is on the company to simplify the rules or make it clear? Regardless love his attitude, wish I could play with/against him.
22:25 “I don’t want to be having this conversation, because if we’re having this conversation I don’t want it to ever put anyone off”
Dagons beard, quite the opposite… I stopped playing 40k, all GW games, because of exactly that sort of behaviour. GW is not cheap, I don’t mind that, but I do mind spending that money and having the games outside of my friends circles be miserable… there are far cheaper games to play that are as much fun (some of which I even get to use GW models… ;)
With 10th edition here, I was considering jumping back in with boarding control… but very reluctant due to those problems.Hearing you talk and knowing people are out in the community like this, gives me the hope and inspires me to come back in to the game… It also reminded me a game can be run properly, and respectfully, even if the other player doesn’t like it.
So I think they turned up at exactly the right moment, saw exactly the right game and highlights that the game can be played fair;y and respectfully, just be aware that not all opponents will be but there are ways to handle it properly…
I’m extremely glad you’re having the conversation. More so GW should be, as I think this is the sort of thing that will bring people back to, or in to the game. Very inspiring…
26:00 "you moved to far", from the guy that moved death company 14" pre-game vs space marine player then sanguinary guard 16 or 17 inches vs drukhari in one of the early 9th US open's is kinda funny.
I've played in a lot of MTG tournaments. The competitive side is much more developed for MTG vs 40K and because of this, they've had to be much more specific with rules. Sadly people playing "with honour" only lasts until its seen visibly when people abuse that and it hurts the companies PR. The earlier this stuff is dealt with, the better the community will grow.
Over the years I've played Warhammer fantasy, W40K and even magic in various tournament settings. Mostly locally organised things, I never had the cah way back to really invest in to what the makers of the games were pushing etc).
You can meet some great people at these things, you can meet some very tactical players, you can meet people that have just a way of understanding the rules that they just find the grey areas. In one Magic game the judge had to contently step in. It was annoying but my opponent had built his deck to use the way he understood the rules. I lost, it was annoying as the game didn't flow but it was still fun.
You'll meet competitive people who play fair. They play to win, the know the rules but they play fair. They want to win but they want to win as they played well.
Then, well, there are those (unfortunately not so rare) people who just want to win. We've all met people like this, the kid in school who suddenly says "who can drink their drink quickest is the best" and then gets really annoyed when they are not the quickest.
These people will bend rules, will try to pick their dice up quick so you didn't get a chance to see, they will *forget* the odd rule, they will come with units given extra equipment they are not allowed to have. Maybe even with units at times. They will say things like "yeah, this rule was in White Dwarf issue number xx" but will not have the issue with them, or the codex. They will usually (butz not always) have the army that has the advantageous rules (as the publisher is trying to push that army).
They have the money and they are there to win, playing is secondary.
I've even seen someone place the scenery on the board themselves "to save time", they were playing guard, their opponent Tyranids (very heavy melee combat army) and straggly all the cover was on their side of the board. The tournament used a rule that after scenery was placed, players rolled for the table side they would use and the player actually tried to pull that they had already rolled, got a 6 and won the roll, so picked their side (Judge was called, everything was removed from the table and they had to start again).
They basically ruin what should be a fun, even if competitive, activity.
It's not the hobby, it's just the way a certain kind of person acts while doing it. They would be this way playing sunday league football, darts (although that can be tricky to cheat at), cards, monopoly, anything. An assh*le will be an assh*le regardless of what they are doing.
They are no fun to play against but it is fun to see them lose.Having said that, they do just take the fun out of the game.
It's so good that Stephen took a stand against this individual. As someone who has played 40k Tournaments for over 10 years now I do feel the Community has really evolved for the better. There are very few "bad apples" now, and they are either being exposed or beginning to change their ways. Let's all try to be always positive and ensure our community remains the great place it should be ❤.