Both very fun cars, I owned my GT86 for 3 years, now I own my Exige S2 (basically an Elise 111R) for 2.5 years. Couldn't live with the open diff though, first thing I did after an outing on track was installing a Quaife ATB torsen diff. Really transforms the car, not missing the GT86 anymore after that :-)
@@L2SFBC On standing starts and corner exit there’s a lot more traction and a nice hint of oversteer. Over the limit a lot more controllable and you can actually drift out a corner. Some people warned me there could be some understeer on corner entry, but I don’t notice it as it is not an agressive diff. And in the wet it’s now actually fun to drive, not constantly spinning up 1 driven wheel.
Thanks, very insightful! Have an Alfa 4C, and still learning how to get the most out of the MR concept. Very challenging, demanding and rewarding car (and simply stunningly beautiful). Like your articles on the website as well, well written and explanatory
Makes total sense! I drove my first ever Exige yesterday in a track day experience, my first time ever driving any vehicle on track. I have had rear-wheel drive cars before such as BMW and with those you could use the power on corner exit to help with rotating the car and I wasn't prepared for how different the mid-engined Exige would feel despite also being rear-wheel drive... I was expecting to be able to drive it the same way. However, after your explanation, I now understand why the car felt like it did and why I too lost control on one corner LOL
Too funny. Was watching RV towing videos and now ran into this one from Robert. I have been in a GT86 but own a 111R. The Lotus is a grippy go cart for the road. Fresh, soft rubber is a must.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - these techniques/characteristics videos are excellent Robert. Thoroughly enjoy them. I recently bought my better half a 2009 Liberty sedan. I was blown away by this vehicle. I've had a couple of Subarus before and they are good, but this thing is absolutely amazing on the road - precise, agile and unshakeable within legal limits and wet or dry conditions. What I was wondering is how it would compare to the 86 and Elise (I realise not as good, but in my brief encounter and without the benefit of a track day (+ its an auto) made me sit back and wonder. I understand you don't have one to drive on the track, but perhaps you could do an analysis based on dimensions, weights, power (all info based on manufacturers specs) and give us an "expected handling" insight into this and a variety of other likely cars fit for track day that are available? Maybe something to consider for future videos?
I haven't driven a 2009 Liberty on track but I do have track experience with other AWD Subarus. It'll be very different to either Elise or 86. You will have lots of grip, no chance of power oversteer, but it's a heavy-ish car so needs management around corners, not super chuckable. Any car is fun on the track! I'd definitely change the brakepads to track/street and the fluid to DOT 5.1 or high performance DOT 4 before any track work.
The Liberty/Legacy was a FANTASTIC chassis and platform in 2009, that was the 4th gen car (BL chassis). Since then they've significantly softened that product and it's nowhere near as dynamically competent. It was generally softened in the 2010 5th gen (BM chassis) car to make it feel more luxurious and add modern electronic safety aids, but then in the 2015 6th gen product (BN chassis) they went even further and isolated the driver from the road in some unfortunate ways, including numb electric power steering and a very unpredictable and uninvolving CVT transmission. It's now very similar in dynamics to competing midsize sedan products from Honda, Toyota, etc (i.e. designed to be unobjectionable rather than good) and is no longer unusually dynamic or satisfying in the way that it was in the late 2000s. The car you drove was targeting BMW for dynamic capabilities, road handling, and feel, and I really think they did an amazing job of it. Sadly the engineers don't seem to be driving the product strategy in that company any longer.
@@JasonPorter Thanks Jason, didn't know those details. Subaru should be exemplary rather than mundane, so the marketers should back off and let the engineers lead development.
@@L2SFBC iignore the need for space for the v12 etc: in gordon murray t50, would it be more ideal to have drivers vestibular organ at the center of wheels wheels contact area with road, so that front wheels rotate car around that area, especially if most cars weight was around that area? i forgot why panoz dealting gt did not work, or maybe it was a buisness issue.
They are both easy to drive at normal speeds. The Elise needs a lot more experience to handle at speed through. It has a LOT more grip than the GT86 but that also means it looses it more suddenly when you push it to hard.
Sort of. Hoq quickly the grip falls off is to do with the tyre. However as the Elise is mid engined it can swing when the rear steps out and need very quick recovery,
Hah yes I'm going to do more on that!!! Horrible myth. Nothing particuarly wrong with it per se, but it's not the utopia the marketing people like to make out. Easy to put a big weight well aft and another one well fore...50/50!
Well, ok, it was helpful a little bit, at least now I'm confident 50:50 isn't inherently better weight distribution, which I kind of knew looking at those mid-engined supercars. Still the explanation was far from perfect. Yeah, sure, it's easier to imagine a rear steering car that acts like a little hammer balancing on a rotating handle, but cars aren't hanged on the handle, they use tires to keep cornering. More weight on the rear intuitively makes sense to make the car more oversteery, but it also mean more weight on the rear wheels, which, according to BS we learn at school, means better grip, since Ffr = u*N, where u is friction coefficient and N is normal force proportional to weight. If a contact patch covered the entire surface area of the car, weight distribution would not affect turning performance at all. But there's overhangs. If I imagine the car with a comically long rear overhang, it doesn't really oversteers. I'm pretty sure it actually understeers. Or, to be even more precise, it understeers on enterinh the corner, oversteers on exiting. But that's considering no braking/accelerating. When the dynamic redistribution happens, mass stays the same while normal force gets significantly lower, which means oversteer when braking, understeer when accelerating for ANY car with ANY weight distribution. And there's one more thing. Downforce. I know it's not that big on normal road legal sportscars and even most supercars, but race cars, I've heard, can even drive upside down. I also head that suspension setup can affect under-/oversteer. That makes me think even more that the main cause of both is dynamic redistribution of weight rather than some natural properties like weight distribution. Cos, really, if all the dynamic load is radial, why would stiffness of the shocks or springs affect under-/oversteer? I mean, sure, there are vibrations, and softer suspension in theory grips better, but isn't the difference unnoticable under most circumstances? I did a computer simulation (well... I mean I played NFS Porsche Unleashed and changed suspension settings😂😂😂🤣) and I barely felt it. That kind of sh*t affected my lap times, but was hard to notice without the timer.
Rear load biased cars oversteer more because of tire load sensitivity. "Friction" goes down with load. Springs and dampers affect balance because they affect lateral load transfer distribution, or how much load transfers across each axle relative to the other. Due to tire load sensitivity effects (and other things, like differential settings), more lateral load transfer means less total grip. Moment of inertia ("overhang") doesn't affect grip inherently.
@@ArchOfficial that makes a lot of sense, thanks! Yeah, I've seen EE video on tire load sensitivity, I knew it must have some effect. You made it a lot more clear.
@@ldmtag It has a pretty big effect. The loaded tire has more force potential so it's the more important one, and the higher the load, the more the difference in friction between tires with different load sensitivity. Tire manufacturers usually also make the wider versions of a tire softer to preserve wear while further increasing grip. This also explains why wider tires have more grip than narrower ones, due to the sidewalls the contact patch area becomes larger for equal pressure and thus contact patch pressure drops, leading to lower load sensitivity for the tire with a lower contact patch pressure. The only caveat is that this is on asphalt and it doesn't necessarily behave the same on all asphalt, on paint, on kerbstones, on gravel etc. Some surfaces might be more and some might be less sensitive.
Both very fun cars, I owned my GT86 for 3 years, now I own my Exige S2 (basically an Elise 111R) for 2.5 years. Couldn't live with the open diff though, first thing I did after an outing on track was installing a Quaife ATB torsen diff. Really transforms the car, not missing the GT86 anymore after that :-)
Interesting, can you tell us more about the differences in handling, performance and enjoyment? Any downsides?
@@L2SFBC
On standing starts and corner exit there’s a lot more traction and a nice hint of oversteer. Over the limit a lot more controllable and you can actually drift out a corner. Some people warned me there could be some understeer on corner entry, but I don’t notice it as it is not an agressive diff. And in the wet it’s now actually fun to drive, not constantly spinning up 1 driven wheel.
I’m the same and have a 111R. Night and day difference when you compare a modified 86 to a 111R. The Elise is just so much better.
Thanks, very insightful! Have an Alfa 4C, and still learning how to get the most out of the MR concept. Very challenging, demanding and rewarding car (and simply stunningly beautiful). Like your articles on the website as well, well written and explanatory
Glad it was helpful!
Makes total sense! I drove my first ever Exige yesterday in a track day experience, my first time ever driving any vehicle on track. I have had rear-wheel drive cars before such as BMW and with those you could use the power on corner exit to help with rotating the car and I wasn't prepared for how different the mid-engined Exige would feel despite also being rear-wheel drive... I was expecting to be able to drive it the same way. However, after your explanation, I now understand why the car felt like it did and why I too lost control on one corner LOL
Why did you lose control?
@@L2SFBC applied brakes mid corner
Thank you for doing this video.. very insightful..
Glad it was helpful! Would really appreciate a share, and what did you like about it?
Too funny. Was watching RV towing videos and now ran into this one from Robert. I have been in a GT86 but own a 111R. The Lotus is a grippy go cart for the road. Fresh, soft rubber is a must.
Ah, excellent, a Lotus owner who tows. I've got you covered :-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again - these techniques/characteristics videos are excellent Robert. Thoroughly enjoy them.
I recently bought my better half a 2009 Liberty sedan. I was blown away by this vehicle. I've had a couple of Subarus before and they are good, but this thing is absolutely amazing on the road - precise, agile and unshakeable within legal limits and wet or dry conditions.
What I was wondering is how it would compare to the 86 and Elise (I realise not as good, but in my brief encounter and without the benefit of a track day (+ its an auto) made me sit back and wonder.
I understand you don't have one to drive on the track, but perhaps you could do an analysis based on dimensions, weights, power (all info based on manufacturers specs) and give us an "expected handling" insight into this and a variety of other likely cars fit for track day that are available? Maybe something to consider for future videos?
I haven't driven a 2009 Liberty on track but I do have track experience with other AWD Subarus. It'll be very different to either Elise or 86. You will have lots of grip, no chance of power oversteer, but it's a heavy-ish car so needs management around corners, not super chuckable. Any car is fun on the track! I'd definitely change the brakepads to track/street and the fluid to DOT 5.1 or high performance DOT 4 before any track work.
The Liberty/Legacy was a FANTASTIC chassis and platform in 2009, that was the 4th gen car (BL chassis). Since then they've significantly softened that product and it's nowhere near as dynamically competent. It was generally softened in the 2010 5th gen (BM chassis) car to make it feel more luxurious and add modern electronic safety aids, but then in the 2015 6th gen product (BN chassis) they went even further and isolated the driver from the road in some unfortunate ways, including numb electric power steering and a very unpredictable and uninvolving CVT transmission. It's now very similar in dynamics to competing midsize sedan products from Honda, Toyota, etc (i.e. designed to be unobjectionable rather than good) and is no longer unusually dynamic or satisfying in the way that it was in the late 2000s. The car you drove was targeting BMW for dynamic capabilities, road handling, and feel, and I really think they did an amazing job of it. Sadly the engineers don't seem to be driving the product strategy in that company any longer.
@@JasonPorter Thanks Jason, didn't know those details.
Subaru should be exemplary rather than mundane, so the marketers should back off and let the engineers lead development.
This is such a great video!
Thank you so much! What did you like about it?
@@L2SFBC iignore the need for space for the v12 etc: in gordon murray t50, would it be more ideal to have drivers vestibular organ at the center of wheels wheels contact area with road, so that front wheels rotate car around that area, especially if most cars weight was around that area? i forgot why panoz dealting gt did not work, or maybe it was a buisness issue.
They are both easy to drive at normal speeds. The Elise needs a lot more experience to handle at speed through. It has a LOT more grip than the GT86 but that also means it looses it more suddenly when you push it to hard.
Sort of. Hoq quickly the grip falls off is to do with the tyre. However as the Elise is mid engined it can swing when the rear steps out and need very quick recovery,
Hey Robert Have you ever raced at The Bend MotorSport Park?
I have yes, held a lap record there once, not sure if it still stands. Why?
@@L2SFBC Just seeing because my Dad has raced there before
@@L2SFBC Thank you for recommending the Muddy Puddle even after Winton i still love it 🤣🤣 Dad’s car = Lotus Elise Sprint 220 Charcoal Grey
Great video
Thank you would appreciate a share 👍
father and son playing
There is the Elise, then there is everything else.
Can't disagree! Hope that was useful.
@@L2SFBC Very enjoyable. My favorite bit was the 50/50 weight bias myth. I have been on that for years.
Hah yes I'm going to do more on that!!! Horrible myth. Nothing particuarly wrong with it per se, but it's not the utopia the marketing people like to make out. Easy to put a big weight well aft and another one well fore...50/50!
Well, ok, it was helpful a little bit, at least now I'm confident 50:50 isn't inherently better weight distribution, which I kind of knew looking at those mid-engined supercars. Still the explanation was far from perfect.
Yeah, sure, it's easier to imagine a rear steering car that acts like a little hammer balancing on a rotating handle, but cars aren't hanged on the handle, they use tires to keep cornering.
More weight on the rear intuitively makes sense to make the car more oversteery, but it also mean more weight on the rear wheels, which, according to BS we learn at school, means better grip, since Ffr = u*N, where u is friction coefficient and N is normal force proportional to weight. If a contact patch covered the entire surface area of the car, weight distribution would not affect turning performance at all.
But there's overhangs. If I imagine the car with a comically long rear overhang, it doesn't really oversteers. I'm pretty sure it actually understeers. Or, to be even more precise, it understeers on enterinh the corner, oversteers on exiting. But that's considering no braking/accelerating. When the dynamic redistribution happens, mass stays the same while normal force gets significantly lower, which means oversteer when braking, understeer when accelerating for ANY car with ANY weight distribution.
And there's one more thing. Downforce. I know it's not that big on normal road legal sportscars and even most supercars, but race cars, I've heard, can even drive upside down.
I also head that suspension setup can affect under-/oversteer. That makes me think even more that the main cause of both is dynamic redistribution of weight rather than some natural properties like weight distribution. Cos, really, if all the dynamic load is radial, why would stiffness of the shocks or springs affect under-/oversteer? I mean, sure, there are vibrations, and softer suspension in theory grips better, but isn't the difference unnoticable under most circumstances? I did a computer simulation (well... I mean I played NFS Porsche Unleashed and changed suspension settings😂😂😂🤣) and I barely felt it. That kind of sh*t affected my lap times, but was hard to notice without the timer.
Rear load biased cars oversteer more because of tire load sensitivity. "Friction" goes down with load.
Springs and dampers affect balance because they affect lateral load transfer distribution, or how much load transfers across each axle relative to the other. Due to tire load sensitivity effects (and other things, like differential settings), more lateral load transfer means less total grip.
Moment of inertia ("overhang") doesn't affect grip inherently.
@@ArchOfficial that makes a lot of sense, thanks! Yeah, I've seen EE video on tire load sensitivity, I knew it must have some effect. You made it a lot more clear.
@@ldmtag It has a pretty big effect. The loaded tire has more force potential so it's the more important one, and the higher the load, the more the difference in friction between tires with different load sensitivity.
Tire manufacturers usually also make the wider versions of a tire softer to preserve wear while further increasing grip.
This also explains why wider tires have more grip than narrower ones, due to the sidewalls the contact patch area becomes larger for equal pressure and thus contact patch pressure drops, leading to lower load sensitivity for the tire with a lower contact patch pressure.
The only caveat is that this is on asphalt and it doesn't necessarily behave the same on all asphalt, on paint, on kerbstones, on gravel etc. Some surfaces might be more and some might be less sensitive.
New BRZ for the money is a better deal