This was extremely informative. The race club is defo one of the best training clubs in the world alongside NBAC. Definitely want to train there one day.
. First, probably 99% of the propulsive force of the arm is coming from the hand, not the forearm nor the upper arm. If you do not believe this, try swimming with a closed fist. Then imagine the amount of force you would have if you chopped off your hand, almost none. The upper arm is the bad cop in the underwater pull. At virtually every point during the pull, except for the very end of the stroke, when the elbow is pushed backward quickly, the upper arm is moving forward in the water, causing frontal drag. What most coaches and swimmers don't realize is that the amount of frontal drag caused by the upper arm is extremely sensitive to the position and motion of the upper arm during the pulling motion. I would estimate that the deeper elbow pull (further beneath the surface) adds 15-20% more frontal drag than the extremely high elbow pull. The pulling surface area that we are really talking about is the effective surface of the hand, and that does not change much from deep to high elbow pull. Gary Sr.
You have it all wrong when you talking about the drag. The experience with the fines and the arms straight is a bad one, because the arm experience the opposite velocity. So in this case you feel drag force against you , and when you're swimming the relative velocity ( what your arms see...) is in the other way and the drag force that your experience is forward. This is why you're going forward. So when you want to go fast you want to create more drag force on your arms...
Great video, I like how you showed how the straight arm pull was good for the 50, but remembered to use high elbow for anything else, some people can do straight arm for an 100(I like it a lot for that), but it needs a lot of raw strength. I swam a 200 with straight arm once and it hurt, and was slow.
+random channel 101 Straight arm recovery requires more work, but offers more coupling energy to the pulling arm in the propulsive phase. To use straight arm in any race over 100 requires a lot of fitness.
I tried this high elbow pull today and it is fantastic. Your right that it doesn't feel as powerful as the deeper pull but it is less strenuous and my times were good. When I put on my hand paddles I could feel the stroke better and I was flying. Looking forward to playing with it more and exploring the nuances. Thanks for sharing.
I experience more resistance when the elbow is bent. but as you pointed out the forward push is greater. I practiced for nearly a week and now I feel the difference. Thank you and Cheers!!
I'm subscribing. Thanks so much for the content, videos and recommendations! It's definetely a high value channel! My question is: Wether you use a high elbow or straight arm pull, would they keep describing a S shape trayectory? and if so, should I try to build that trajectory or will just feel like it takes shape on its own throughout the pull at some point?
I've been swimming with a deep pull for 3 years (when I started swimming) and I my coach would always tell me I had no catch but I didn't know how to fix it and now I do
You feel more pressure on your arm when it is straight, simply because of the principal of leverage. You need to spend more effort to raise the same weight when your arm is straight, than when it is bent, as it is farther away from the pivot, your shoulder. If you pull deep and feel it is too heavy so that your arm has to slow down, then you should bend your arm to keep the speed. If you have already swung your arms very fast, then you can pull deeper to gain more propulsion. Usually your limit is strength and that's why high elbow(bent arm) is suggested. However, for some very strong athletes, or for a sprint when you can afford the temp strong pulls, high elbow is a waste of power, and deep pull is a better option.
@@theraceclub I agree with your conclusion that deep pull is faster. However, with due respect, the physics theory you explained doesn't sound right. when your arm moves faster than water flows(equals to your speed of swimming, usually less than 2m/s), it generates propulsion, when your arm moves slower than that, it causes drag. 2m/s is rather slow for your arm. When you stroke, it is always about how much propulsion it generates. To talk about drag is weird. The main difference between deep pull and high elbow pull is about the resistance. As deep pull has much larger resistance to overcome, you exert much more energy, and thus gain more propulsion. As long as you are strong enough to keep the rate of stroke, deep pull always has an edge over high elbow.
Hi, is it more efficient to have a bent elbow recovery rather than just swinging the arm out to the side? What would be better for mid distance and sprinting? Also which one puts less stress on your arms
We don't like the idea of swinging the arm out to the side, even if it is straight, as that means you are not rotating the body well (the more powerful of the two freestyle coupling motions). So we recommend bending the elbow on the free recovery for events that are 200 meters or longer, but rotating the body for ALL freestyle events.
Great channel! Should an arm exit water after the power phase fully extended downward (with an opposite arm fully extended upward)? I was told that my arm exits the water prematurely (not fully extended downwards), thus not fully utilizing the potential of the power phase. Perhaps because of the lack of rotation...
The propulsive phase of the arm should end when the arm is fully extended backward. The hand should not be too deep at this point. From that point, depending on the technique, the release phase occurs with either drawing the elbow forward, bending the arm (low octane) or bringing the entire straight arm over the water (high octane). The latter technique is more common in sprinting.
Thank you for the reply! I did a video analysis of my stroke and could identify a few deficiencies like hand crossover&dropped elbow on the breathing side. Your videos and articles are very helpful.
A deep elbow pull will put more torque on the shoulder and make you more vulnerable to injury. Use the high elbow pull to reduce the torque on the shoulder.
+Azoul1001 The more you practice, the better you will get it at. Try doing 6k/1 stroke drill really focusing on the arm that's pulling and achieving the high elbow position.
+Azoul1001 Another good drill/exercise is swimming with one arm only, keeping the other at your side. Try to keep the elbow one inch underwater on the pulling side. Pull first with one arm, then the other, then both. Over time, you will be able to maintain the high elbow.
should the hand entry be strong with tension in the arms or strong with relaxation in the arms ? because no one ever explained the strenght of the hand entry in youtube . i would be very glad if you answer this question sir because the hand entry is the most important thing i dont know nothing about some says that it should be smooth and others are saying that it should be strong
+LaFiesta So long as your stroke rate is high, you should not slow the arm before it reaches the water. The wrist on the recovery should still be relaxed even with a fast stroke rate. The longer the arm is on the recovery and the faster the arm moves through the recovery (angular velocity) the greater the kinetic energy coupling with the pulling motion of the opposite arm. If you slow the arm before it enters the water, you will lose that important coupling energy.
I know this is a video that is 8 years old but I have a question. I tell my kids when doing single arm freestyle that I have two rules for two very specific reasons. 1) to have the arm that is not pulling at the side and to rotate equally to both sides, esp to initiate the pull and I find it impossible to roll to full extension when the non-pulling arm is up. 2) breathing opposite the pulling arm so we work symmetry with the roll and keeping a focus on not pulling until the breathe is done to eliminate crossing over. Thoughts/feedback?
Hey Brett, I like your thinking. The rotation to the opposite side emphasizes the coupling energy from the body. If I may, I'd like to suggest you add one more point to this drill. Have the swimmers lift the hand as it moves forward (from a bent or low octane position) and squeeze the fingers and thumb together, so that the hand enters the water with the arm fully extended. Forget having the fingertips enter first...just adds more drag. Nice work! Gary
@@theraceclub awesome. Thank you so much Gary. Last night I told my kids of my research and reply to an 8yr old video and they questioned if I would get a response. I cannot wait to tell them tonight of your reply. Thank you so much! Big fan. We met at 2019 ASCA dinner and you gave me insight to dryland questions I had. We still use your feedback for scapular flexibility and strength. I hope someday to visit your location.
tikskit High elbow is more efficient than straight arm coz the lever for back muscle is much more longer than straight arm pull. Actually straight arm pull can not engage your back muscle but only your shoulder .
+Sun Kyle It is the rotation of the body that helps engage the back muscles more. However, the high elbow pull (with good rotation) requires that the initiation of the pull begins with the shoulder in a negative angle (extended). The deeper dropped elbow puts the shoulder in a more favorable mechanical position. By a deeper pull, we do not imply that the swimmers arm is straight, as that is not usually the case.
No matter high elbow or deep pull, you need to maximize your arm's vertical surface during the under-water pull. The reason that coaches universally advocate high elbow, is mainly to avoid low elbow, which bends your arm in a way that your lower arm and hand is in the shadow of your upper arm, which significantly decrease the propulsion of the pull.
The hand (not the forearm) generates most of the propulsion. It needs to be kept flat, perpendicular to swiimmer's motion and with fingers spread slightly.
Even with arm moving faster than body, there is always certain resistance. High elbow bent between 90 to 120 degrees, usually has lowest amount of drag. But every swimmer has different shoulder structure, strength with different amount of body roll which could change the equation. That's why there are difference of opinions among coaches with regards to freestyle hand motion.
Each part of the arm moves at different speeds and in different directions. The upper arm is moving forward for much of the underwater pull, so that is the part we need to be careful with.
Perhaps the drag in actual swimming with the deep straight arm is more about creating drag in the back end vs the front end. When pressing down with the straight arm you in effect lift your head and chest higher while dropping the hips...therefore losing a more efficient, horizontal hydrodynamic position.
***** Lifting the head while swimming freestyle clearly affects body position and increases frontal drag. So does the straighter deep arm pull ...but for different reasons.
+Marco Soto The 50 is one event where we see a wider range of elbow positions on the underwater pull. Likely, the best position for the 50 is compromised between the highest elbow position (distance swimmers) and a very deep pull. Even too deep of a pull can hurt you in the 50.
davidmyers102 Use fins! Zoomers are ok... DMC training short fins are the best... you can buy them in our store on our website www.theraceclub.com I wouldn't use a pull buoy for this drill.
Depends on the event. In general, in the 50 sprint, breathe as little as possible. On the 100 and up breathe every cycle (every 2 strokes in freestyle)
+Miles Brown The 50 is one event where we see a wider range of elbow positions on the underwater pull. Likely, the best position for the 50 is compromised between the highest elbow position (distance swimmers) and a very deep pull. Even too deep of a pull can hurt you in the 50.
From physics it is difficult to understand why the position of the arm with same frontal area will produce more drag depending on the position (low or high elbow), the only difference I can see is the rotational inertia may be altered depending on where the arm is relative to the "centroid of the body frontal plane) . If arm very close to surface of water then there may be different in pressure due to the water-air layer, so in theory it may be a bit different hydrodynamics (stream lines). Sorry for the technicality.
The amount of drag caused by an object (arm) in a given medium (water) is determined by its shape (surface area), its surface characteristic (slipperiness) and it speed (exponentially). The shape of the upper arm constantly changes as it moves through the pulling cycle. So does its forward speed. The upper arm is problematic only during the front quadrant, as that is the only time it is moving forward. The higher elbow pulling motion helps to keep that part of the arm more in the swimmer's line of motion during that early but crucial part of the pull. Hope this helps. Gary
+Its manga boy The 100 freestyle is not a sprint, so I would definitely recommend a pull with a higher elbow. You must practice pulling with this motion with force (fast) in order to develop speed for the 100. With the higher elbow and good training, you should be able to finish the race better and hopefully, improve your time.
+theraceclub okay thank you for the advice i will just swim with the deep pull for this 100 and practice the high elbow at our practices. this will be my first meet ever so i hope i can do good.
I have to say I agree with sv below. Although I'll try to be more diplomatic about it. There should be no frontal drag created by the arm in the pull phase as it is (or at least should) not be moving relative to the bottom of the pool and the water column. You can actually see this at a couple of points in the video where the swimmer swims past the static camera. The hand/arm stays in the same place relative to the camera as the rest of the swimmer's body moves past. If there is any movement of the arm relative to the pool in the pull phase its backwards as it slips through the water due to inefficiency in its catch on the water. Frontal drag caused by the arm could only possibly be a factor if the swimmer was moving so quickly through the water from other propulsion (dive, push-off, kick) that the arm was effectively moving forwards towards the end of the pool while it was simultaneously moving backwards past the swimmer's body. Apart from immediately after a dive or a push-off this would never be the case. Unaided kick would never create this much propulsion. No-doubt however the arm angle & position has other pros & cons on propulsion.
+Peter Gregory there is not one 'static' camera shot used in this video. If you watch our video series on the underwater pull theraceclub.com/swimisodes/freestyle-underwater-pull-series-lift/ you'll find static shots .... i'll let Gary Sr. answer regarding the physics.
+theraceclub Thanks for the reply and the link to the other video. Those shots show that's its only during the 'lift' phase that the hand is moving forward in the water. By the time the arm is in the 'propulsive' phase (and in the angles discussed in this video) its not moving or moving backwards and therefore frontal drag is not in play. I'd be honoured in GHSnr even read my post let alone replied to it.
+Peter Gregory Thanks Peter. The hand moves forward during the lift phase and the release phase (at the very end of the pull). During these critical times, the hand (and arm) should be positioned in such a way as to cause minimal frontal drag. It is the position of the upper arm during most of the propulsive phases (except the very end) that is problematic for frontal drag forces. This is quite variable depending on the motion used. Gary Sr
This drag appreciation drill does not replicate the motion of the arm during the pulling motion. It is designed to allow swimmers to appreciate the difference in drag forces between the two positions, and they are less with the bent arm. A straight pole out of the window of a car at 60 mph will produce more drag than a pole that is bent 90 degrees in the middle. Water is incompressible so the density doesn't change with the depth (perhaps 5% at the deepest part of the ocean) but the barometric pressure does change quickly. The physics of the drag underwater are not appreciably altered by the depth. Propulsion is created in swimming mostly by the hands and the feet moving backward relative to the water. The upper arm is moving forward during most of the underwater pull, causing more frontal drag than the lower arm. With the high elbow pull, the upper arm positionally causes less frontal drag than with the deep arm pull.
+Davis Kaahanui The closer to the surface, usually the less frontal drag. The deeper elbow can create more power so is often seen more in the sprint events (50 meters).
physics: if you arm moves faster laterally than your body in the water, the water flowwing by would always catching up your arm's lateral movement, rather than pushing your arms. In this case, there is no drag of the water, but only your arm pushing water behind. However, in the vedio, the swimer freezed the arm which is totally a different story.
Any part of the human body moving forward will cause frontal drag. With pulling motion, the different parts of the arm move at various speeds, sometimes forward, sometimes downward and sometimes backward. There should be very little lateral movement of the arms/hands during the freestyle and backstroke pull.
This is a math and physics problem. Let's start with a simplified model: moving object in water with propeller rotating at a constant angular speed. Velocity of moving object = V0, propeller length = r, propeller angle to water surface = θ, propeller angular speed = ω. At any given time point, the friction of a spot on the propeller caused by water = v x dl, where dl is the vertical section of any spot on propeller and therefore = dr Sin(θ), while v is the RELATIVE speed of propeller in water and therefore Vrelative = V0 - ωrSin(θ). Delta friction (dFric) now becomes (V0 - ωrSin(θ)) x dr Sin(θ), or friction Fric = ʃ (V0 - ωrSin(θ)) x drSin(θ) = 0.5ωR^2 x Sin(θ) x (2V0/Rω - Sin(θ)) after integration (R is the full propeller length). Now it comes down to plotting this function Sin(θ) x (2V0/Rω - Sin(θ)) and you can try this with google: when 2V0/Rω=0.5, 1 or 2, which means body speed is quarter, half or equal the arm speed. Looking for the positive sections of this curve in the upper right quadrant: 1). Only 1/3 of the time (0-30, 150-180) the swimmer would suffer from drag (friction) when the arm speed is the same as the body velocity 2). All the way through (0-180), the swimmer would have drag when arm moves half as fast as body 3). All the way through (0-180) with greater extend, the swimmer had huge drag when arm slows down as just quarter the speed of body velocity. Friction = 0.5ωR^2 x Sin(θ) x (2V0/Rω - Sin(θ)).......................................................Eq1 Eq1 explains how your arm speed impact on the friction part. Even with deep pull, you can minimize the drag by increasing the pull speed. Now it leaves to the coach/swimmer to tell me what is a realistic V0/ωR for serious swimmers. As for the demo by Roland in the video: His arm is not MOVING at all, now Friction = V0*R, which is a tremendous amount of friction. However, deep stroke arm position he did would have almost twice the drag as the shallow stroke since R is only the forearm rather than the full arm in the shallow stroke position.
Thank you for the lesson. The analogy of the moving arm/hand is not quite the same as a propellor, though similar. The form or pressure drag of the human body and the arm as it moves forward is significantly greater than the drag caused by friction. At any moment in the arm pulling motion, one must know precisely what the amount of surface area and speed of each part of the arm from hand to shoulder is, in order to understand the contribution to frontal drag. The hand goes from forward motion to downward/forward to backward to forward within a few tenths of a second. The upper arm moves forward through most of the pulling motion until the hand is past the shoulder, at which time it also moves backward. The surface area of the hand and upper arm moving forward vary significantly from swimmer to swimmer depending on the size of the swimmer and the technique used.
Hi There is a lot of effort in video trying to understand the dynamics of the pull. However, most of the conclusions are not scientific as they don't follow physics... it might sound logical but they are not correct
This experiment of drag vs arm position seems to defy physics! Same area same drag. If you put paddles and don't move them you can get big drag, but at the same time if you use them to propel your body forwards for sure you get more propulsion (assuming no limitation for force provided for the motion). What am I missing here? The other experiment to perform is just keep your arm very close to your body almost hiding it in the body, NO DRAG, but also no propulsion.
Depending on the pulling motion, high elbow vs deeper pull, the surface area of the upper arm is not the same, nor is the speed of that part of the arm moving forward. Therefore, less drag with high elbow pull.
the drag part is just incorrect to my opinion. As said before, as long as the arm moves backwards relatively to the water there is no drag but propulsion. The more important thing is the VECTOR of this propulsion. Force and direction that is. Elite swimmers are able to put the vector in the right orientation asap by executing a good catch. The direction of the force is 90 degrees from the underarm. Swimming with a straightish arm means the vector is initially aimed upward and only halfway the stroke the force is aimed at the right direction, exactly to the back (parallel to the waterline) that is. Look at how Sun swam his world record 1500 and it will be very clear.
You are right in that force is a vector. Most of the force at the initiation of the pulling hand is downward, causing lift. Once the hand is just in front of the shoulder (about one foot) it changes orientation and begins to move backward. It takes a minimum of .15 seconds for that to happen up to as long as 1 second in swimmers like Sun Yang. From that point to the end of the pull, the force is backward and that is when propulsion is generated. Most of the force generating propulsion occurs at the hand, not in the arm.
@@theraceclub thank you for the reaction. I would say that as long as the hand is in line with the underarm ( which is the case untill the end of the propulsion where the hand is tilted to keep pushing the water) the vector of the underarm is at least as big as the vector of the hand just because the total surface of the underarm is bigger. That means a bigger surface in exactly the same relative movement from the water as the hand. So from physics pov i dont see why your hand would contribute more. Is that not the whole idea behind swimming fist drill too?
Yes and no. For a non streamlined object like a human (in the correct position) or a submarine, there is less drag under water than on the surface. Once an object is on the surface, however, there is less drag as the object goes higher on the surface. Hydroplaning is the holy grail for swimmers!
수영에피소드 - 자유형 기술 향상하기 - 물속에서 젓는 법 | Swimisodes - Improve Freestyle Technique - How to Pull Underwater 레이쓰클럽 theraceclub 게시일: 2015. 6. 2. #swimisodes 많은 수영인이 자유형에서 물속 젓기를 배울 때 자연적인 본능에 의지합니다. 하지만 잠깐 멈춰서 팔 젓는 주기 동안에 우리 몸과 팔에 무슨 일이 생기는지 생각해본다면, 우리는 다른 방법으로 젓는 것을 선택할 수도 있습니다. 물속에서 젓는 법에는 꽤 다양한 가능성이 존재합니다. 몸체 한창 아래로 뻗어 당기는 것에서부터 한창 옆으로 내밀어 얕게 당기는 것까지, 경기의 종류와 선수에 따라, 우리 모두에게는 자신에게 가장 잘 맞는 방법이 있습니다. #swimisodes Many swimmers rely on natural instinct when they learn how to pull underwater in freestyle. But if we stop and think about what happens during the stroke cycle with our arms and body, we might choose to pull in a different way. There is quite a range of possibilities in how to pull underwater. From a pull way underneath our bodies to a pull way out to the side, there is a sweet spot for all of us, depending on the swimmer and the race. 우리 레이쓰클럽에는 "수영선수의 첫 번째 적은 저항력이다"라는 말이 있습니다. 그래서, 물속을 헤쳐 나가는 속도를 내는 데 있어 저항력에 가장 잘 대처하기 위해, 우리는 저항력에 주의를 기울여야만 하고 그 모든 저항력을 느껴야만 합니다. 이번 수영에피소드 #swimisodes 를 통해, 물속 당기기에 있어, "더 강력한 힘과 같은 의미가 있는 깊게 젓기(deep pull)의 장점 對(대) 더 적은 저항력을 만들지만, 또한 더 약한 힘을 내는 팔꿈치 들어 젓기(high elbow pull)"에 대하여 배우십시요. We have a saying at the Race Club that drag is the number one enemy of the swimmer. Therefore, we must pay attention to drag and feel all it’s forces in order to best deal with it in creating speed through water. In this #swimisodes learn the advantage of a deep pull equating to more power vs the advantage of the high elbow pull creating less drag but also less power during the underwater pull. 우리 레이쓰클럽에서는, 이번 수영에피소드 #swimisodes 에서 본 것과 같은 '저항력 이해 부분훈련' 몇 가지를 연습합니다. 올림픽 4회 출전자인 롤랜드 스쿠만, 세계 챔피언인 준야 코가 그리고 엘리트 초장거리 수영선수인 렉시 켈리가 개리 홀 코치님의 지도로, 우리가 종종 느끼지 못할 수도 있는 '저항력'을 느끼게 해주는 기본 기술을 다시 해보는 것을 관찰하십시요. "더 강력한 힘" 對(대) "더 적은 저항력"의 느낌을 비교하여 대조해보세요. 여러분은 이 부분훈련들을 통해 자유형을 할 때 물속에서 젓는 방법을 이해하게 될 것입니다. At the Race Club, we practice several 'drag appreciation drills' as seen in this #swimisodes. Watch 4 time Olympian Roland Schoeman, World Champion Junya Koga and Elite Marathon swimmer, Lexie Kelly led by Coach Gary Hall take it back to the basics allowing the swimmer to feel 'drag forces' that may often go unoticed. Compare and contrast the feelings of more power vs. less drag. These drills might help you understand how to pull underwater in swimming freestyle. 시청해주셔서 감사합니다! Thanks for watching! 제작/감독/편집: 리차드 홀 저술/해설: 개리 홀 시니어 촬영: 프레이지어 나이븐스 지미집 작동: 마이키 몬토야 (Jib and Co) 방수하우징: AquaVideo Founders Park Islamorada, FL MM87 에 있는 우리 훈련 시설에서 촬영하였습니다. Producer/Director/Editor: Richard Hall Writer/Narrator: Gary Hall Sr Cinematographer: Frazier Nivens Live Sound: Gustavo Moller Jib Operator: Mikey Montoya (Jib and Co) Underwater Housing: AquaVideo Filmed at our training facility Founders Park Islamorada, FL MM87
Gary Hall Sr. has some nice videos. However, he does not seem to understand physics very well. I've seen several videos in which he misinterpreted the physics of swimming. It is completely wrong to say the deeper pull cause more drag. When your arm pulls faster than your body, it does not cause drag. The arm causes drag only if it pulls slower than the body's speed which never happens in swimming. The drill in the video is a joke. The high elbow pull facilitates early catch and lengthens the distance of effective pull. It has nothing to do with drag.
Any part of the human body moving forward in the water will cause drag. The arms move forward during the pull but much more with the upper arm compared to the lower arm.
This video says exactly the opposite of what everyone else says and what is true. High elbow gives by far more drag. At the same time it enhances the posture of the body.
RagHelen .....Could argue this ad infinitum but, the proof/final say is----> the stopwatch. I would guess Mr Hall, an Olympic medalist several times over and 2nd only to the great Mark Spitz (1970's) "back in the day," knows what he's talking about, since he "eats 'n breaths" swimming as a coach. Haven't seen all his vids but, do recall him sharing/stating what has changed over the yrs, vis-à-vis technology/study/nutrition, etc. Again, why don't you (anyone, that is...) get a stopwatch, get in a pool, and find out if the guy's telling u true.
You can get good results with deep pull if you have much power in your arms and your shoulders, a not excellent technique (like the guy in the video) and if the race is over after 50m. Deep pull is not more powerful, it allows and requires to invest more power into it. That's a big difference! If you do both strokes with the same power, high elbow will take you twice as far as the other one. I can swim with both methods. In a short distant race, I would start with high elbow, pull deep in a very high frequency in the middle (at top speed, when body rotation comes to an end, high elbow involes unnecessary extra movement) and finish with high elbow again, because it enhances the foward focus of mind and body and is much more efficient for using one's inertia. Just look at the guy in the video: If his arms would stop abrupty, he would stop moving forward at the same moment. When you lower the frequency with deep pull, the second half of the stroke becomes a severe problem: no drag anymore, the arm extended from the body with its complete length. And you have to invest more power only to get the arm back in position.
RagHelen You said "if you do both strokes with the same power". Yeah, but the whole point is that you can't do both strokes with the same power. You trade off max power for less drag as you go from deeper pull to the high elbow. Also, please keep in mind that your whole arm is not involved in propulsion. Think of the middle part (or higher) of your upper arm. That part is just drag, and it's worse the lower you drive it.
RagHelen pretty sure a former Olympic medallist knows what he's talking about... how many of you and your everyone else who says what is true has an Olympic medals? personally, i find deep pull to be having much more drag.... i dont understand how u can find it otherwise... probably dont hv the right technique? dont spread false lies here n confuse others further...
I don"t think this video is very scientifically accurate. First the reason why swimmers feel less drag in the high elbow doing the "drag appreciation" demonstration is because the shoulder muscles are not as strong in that position compared to the low elbow causing the swimmers to not hold as much of a forward facing drag. Secondly since the upper arm is closer to the surface you can see the swimmers wanting to naturally lift it out of the water a little also causing less drag. I think the reasoning behind the video is because water molecules are less dense closer to the surface because weight of the water above it. However none of this should matter because the reason why swimmers move while pulling underwater with their arms is because of the drag forces being produce by the arms. When you pull with your arms their is a higher resistance than the weight of the body in motion causing more forward momentum. It doesn't make sense to pull with a high elbow like this. Otherwise please tell me why?
"I think the reasoning behind the video is because water molecules are less dense closer to the surface because weight of the water above it" Sorry, this sentence demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of primary school-level physics. Makes one wonder what sorts of "secrets" you can possibly know
Water is incompressible. Density of water is same at all pool depths. Only parts of the body moving forward relative to the water cause drag. The upper arm is the cause of most of the drag during the pull. The hand causes most of the drag (propulsion force) during the pull. Hope this helps.
First time disagreeing with a video of yours. I don't think it has to do with frontal drag at all and has everything to do with propulsion to energy cost ratios for different race distances. First, isn't drag going the other way exactly what causes propulsion? If you took your deep pull drill and imagined it the other way, that means you get a ton of water to hold and therefore use to propel yourself. Same thing with the knee bend in the kick. Otherwise, swimming would just be who can glide the furthest in the best streamline. You talked a little bit in the comments about all of the propulsive force in the pull coming from the hands and that you can feel that by swimming with a closed fist. This isn't true because even though it feels really bad to swim that way, you don't swim twice as slow, you swim maybe a couple seconds slower per 50? The real reason is just moment arms and leverages. Force x distance, your hand/fingers feel the most pressure because it's father away from your shoulder/elbow. Deeper pull gives you more leverage and more force x distance to set a better anchor. This is faster and it doesn't cause more drag since drag going backward is what gives you propulsion. The reason you can't do it long is because of it's high energy demand, the same way a high knee in sprinting will go away as the distance gets longer.
The propulsion is generated by the amount of drag moving backward. Other than at the very end of the pulling propulsion cycle, the only parts of the arm moving backward are the hand and forearm. The hand moves backward faster than the forearm and surface is flat, not roundish. The flow around a forearm will not produce a lot of drag. When you close your fist, you are not eliminating the hand. Just making it about 1/3 the size. If you were to chop off your hands, you would see a much bigger loss of propulsion. Same with the feet. One feels more with the hands because the proprioception (density of nerve endings) is much greater in the hands than the forearms...and the pressure is much greater there. The drag from the arm motion is caused almost entirely in the front quadrant of the pull and by the upper arm, once the catch is initiated.
Frontal drag is the number one enemy of the swimmer. By doing these drills you will begin to appreciate how important frontal drag is in determining the speed of a swimmer. They are not designed to replicate precisely the pulling motion, but rather show how sensitive the shape of the human body is in water in causing frontal drag. We think that they achieve that goal.
bla156 Think of it then as "water resistance". The deeper your arm goes into the water as you pull, the more resistance you have to deal with as you swim. More resistance will mean you will need to use more energy to pull your upper limbs through the water to do your pull ofvthe water back towards the feet. You spend more energy, which in turn wears you out quicker and you will likely slow down greatly from your initial speed. We try to get as streamline as possible as we swim and also on top of the water fir both front crawl and backstroke as doing those two things helps us by reducing how much "water resistance" will be effecting or speed/energy expenditure as we swim those two strokes.
This was extremely informative. The race club is defo one of the best training clubs in the world alongside NBAC. Definitely want to train there one day.
+TheMotherduck95 Come on down! We have much better weather than Baltimore especially in the winter!!! Either way... you'll get great coaching!
. First, probably 99% of the propulsive force of the arm is coming from the hand, not the forearm nor the upper arm. If you do not believe this, try swimming with a closed fist. Then imagine the amount of force you would have if you chopped off your hand, almost none. The upper arm is the bad cop in the underwater pull. At virtually every point during the pull, except for the very end of the stroke, when the elbow is pushed backward quickly, the upper arm is moving forward in the water, causing frontal drag. What most coaches and swimmers don't realize is that the amount of frontal drag caused by the upper arm is extremely sensitive to the position and motion of the upper arm during the pulling motion. I would estimate that the deeper elbow pull (further beneath the surface) adds 15-20% more frontal drag than the extremely high elbow pull. The pulling surface area that we are really talking about is the effective surface of the hand, and that does not change much from deep to high elbow pull. Gary Sr.
You have it all wrong when you talking about the drag. The experience with the fines and the arms straight is a bad one, because the arm experience the opposite velocity. So in this case you feel drag force against you , and when you're swimming the relative velocity ( what your arms see...) is in the other way and the drag force that your experience is forward. This is why you're going forward. So when you want to go fast you want to create more drag force on your arms...
It is the shoulder. The higher resistence comes from droping the shoulder when pulling.
Best explanation that I found.
Thanks.
Great video, I like how you showed how the straight arm pull was good for the 50, but remembered to use high elbow for anything else, some people can do straight arm for an 100(I like it a lot for that), but it needs a lot of raw strength. I swam a 200 with straight arm once and it hurt, and was slow.
+random channel 101 Straight arm recovery requires more work, but offers more coupling energy to the pulling arm in the propulsive phase. To use straight arm in any race over 100 requires a lot of fitness.
I tried this high elbow pull today and it is fantastic. Your right that it doesn't feel as powerful as the deeper pull but it is less strenuous and my times were good. When I put on my hand paddles I could feel the stroke better and I was flying. Looking forward to playing with it more and exploring the nuances. Thanks for sharing.
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I experience more resistance when the elbow is bent. but as you pointed out the forward push is greater. I practiced for nearly a week and now I feel the difference. Thank you and Cheers!!
Glad to help!
Great Video!
Thanks!!
Such good videos. Amazing explainations and camera work!
Thank you! We are very proud of the quality of our videos. Glad you like them.
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I'm subscribing. Thanks so much for the content, videos and recommendations! It's definetely a high value channel! My question is: Wether you use a high elbow or straight arm pull, would they keep describing a S shape trayectory? and if so, should I try to build that trajectory or will just feel like it takes shape on its own throughout the pull at some point?
Thanks for subscribing! We think swimmers should work on pulling straight back so I wouldn't think about any S-shape at all during you're pull.
I've been swimming with a deep pull for 3 years (when I started swimming) and I my coach would always tell me I had no catch but I didn't know how to fix it and now I do
+VortexFX Glad we could help!
You feel more pressure on your arm when it is straight, simply because of the principal of leverage. You need to spend more effort to raise the same weight when your arm is straight, than when it is bent, as it is farther away from the pivot, your shoulder.
If you pull deep and feel it is too heavy so that your arm has to slow down, then you should bend your arm to keep the speed.
If you have already swung your arms very fast, then you can pull deeper to gain more propulsion.
Usually your limit is strength and that's why high elbow(bent arm) is suggested. However, for some very strong athletes, or for a sprint when you can afford the temp strong pulls, high elbow is a waste of power, and deep pull is a better option.
Deep pull: more propulsion, more frontal drag. High elbow pull: Less propulsion, less frontal drag.
@@theraceclub I agree with your conclusion that deep pull is faster. However, with due respect, the physics theory you explained doesn't sound right.
when your arm moves faster than water flows(equals to your speed of swimming, usually less than 2m/s), it generates propulsion, when your arm moves slower than that, it causes drag. 2m/s is rather slow for your arm. When you stroke, it is always about how much propulsion it generates. To talk about drag is weird.
The main difference between deep pull and high elbow pull is about the resistance. As deep pull has much larger resistance to overcome, you exert much more energy, and thus gain more propulsion. As long as you are strong enough to keep the rate of stroke, deep pull always has an edge over high elbow.
Hi, is it more efficient to have a bent elbow recovery rather than just swinging the arm out to the side? What would be better for mid distance and sprinting? Also which one puts less stress on your arms
We don't like the idea of swinging the arm out to the side, even if it is straight, as that means you are not rotating the body well (the more powerful of the two freestyle coupling motions). So we recommend bending the elbow on the free recovery for events that are 200 meters or longer, but rotating the body for ALL freestyle events.
Great channel! Should an arm exit water after the power phase fully extended downward (with an opposite arm fully extended upward)? I was told that my arm exits the water prematurely (not fully extended downwards), thus not fully utilizing the potential of the power phase. Perhaps because of the lack of rotation...
The propulsive phase of the arm should end when the arm is fully extended backward. The hand should not be too deep at this point. From that point, depending on the technique, the release phase occurs with either drawing the elbow forward, bending the arm (low octane) or bringing the entire straight arm over the water (high octane). The latter technique is more common in sprinting.
Thank you for the reply! I did a video analysis of my stroke and could identify a few deficiencies like hand crossover&dropped elbow on the breathing side. Your videos and articles are very helpful.
Good videos.My problem is dropping my left elbow in the catch. I also have to be very careful about shoulder pain. Any suggestions? Thanks.
A deep elbow pull will put more torque on the shoulder and make you more vulnerable to injury. Use the high elbow pull to reduce the torque on the shoulder.
i agree with all you say in the video; Pb is that i cant keep high elbow on long distances like when i swim ironman. Any advice ? thanks mate !!
+Azoul1001 The more you practice, the better you will get it at. Try doing 6k/1 stroke drill really focusing on the arm that's pulling and achieving the high elbow position.
theraceclub Hey, thank you very much for taking the time to answer, its very nice of you. I will try what you said. have a great day !
+Azoul1001 Another good drill/exercise is swimming with one arm only, keeping the other at your side. Try to keep the elbow one inch underwater on the pulling side. Pull first with one arm, then the other, then both. Over time, you will be able to maintain the high elbow.
should the hand entry be strong with tension in the arms or strong with relaxation in the arms ? because no one ever explained the strenght of the hand entry in youtube . i would be very glad if you answer this question sir because the hand entry is the most important thing i dont know nothing about some says that it should be smooth and others are saying that it should be strong
+LaFiesta So long as your stroke rate is high, you should not slow the arm before it reaches the water. The wrist on the recovery should still be relaxed even with a fast stroke rate. The longer the arm is on the recovery and the faster the arm moves through the recovery (angular velocity) the greater the kinetic energy coupling with the pulling motion of the opposite arm. If you slow the arm before it enters the water, you will lose that important coupling energy.
I know this is a video that is 8 years old but I have a question. I tell my kids when doing single arm freestyle that I have two rules for two very specific reasons. 1) to have the arm that is not pulling at the side and to rotate equally to both sides, esp to initiate the pull and I find it impossible to roll to full extension when the non-pulling arm is up. 2) breathing opposite the pulling arm so we work symmetry with the roll and keeping a focus on not pulling until the breathe is done to eliminate crossing over. Thoughts/feedback?
Hey Brett, I like your thinking. The rotation to the opposite side emphasizes the coupling energy from the body. If I may, I'd like to suggest you add one more point to this drill. Have the swimmers lift the hand as it moves forward (from a bent or low octane position) and squeeze the fingers and thumb together, so that the hand enters the water with the arm fully extended. Forget having the fingertips enter first...just adds more drag. Nice work!
Gary
@@theraceclub awesome. Thank you so much Gary. Last night I told my kids of my research and reply to an 8yr old video and they questioned if I would get a response. I cannot wait to tell them tonight of your reply. Thank you so much! Big fan. We met at 2019 ASCA dinner and you gave me insight to dryland questions I had. We still use your feedback for scapular flexibility and strength. I hope someday to visit your location.
I have a bad habit if dropping my elbow. Grezt input will now try to correct.
Awesome! Check out all our videos at www.theraceclub.com Lane 3 is full library!
Pro trick : you can watch series on flixzone. Me and my gf have been using it for watching all kinds of movies during the lockdown.
@Aden Kaiser definitely, been watching on flixzone} for years myself :D
So what is an advantage of the high elbow pull?
tikskit High elbow is more efficient than straight arm coz the lever for back muscle is much more longer than straight arm pull. Actually straight arm pull can not engage your back muscle but only your shoulder .
+Sun Kyle It is the rotation of the body that helps engage the back muscles more. However, the high elbow pull (with good rotation) requires that the initiation of the pull begins with the shoulder in a negative angle (extended). The deeper dropped elbow puts the shoulder in a more favorable mechanical position. By a deeper pull, we do not imply that the swimmers arm is straight, as that is not usually the case.
No matter high elbow or deep pull, you need to maximize your arm's vertical surface during the under-water pull. The reason that coaches universally advocate high elbow, is mainly to avoid low elbow, which bends your arm in a way that your lower arm and hand is in the shadow of your upper arm, which significantly decrease the propulsion of the pull.
The hand (not the forearm) generates most of the propulsion. It needs to be kept flat, perpendicular to swiimmer's motion and with fingers spread slightly.
The arm is moving faster than the surrounding water to the rear of the body so there is no drag. The test is invalid, Right?
Even with arm moving faster than body, there is always certain resistance. High elbow bent between 90 to 120 degrees, usually has lowest amount of drag. But every swimmer has different shoulder structure, strength with different amount of body roll which could change the equation. That's why there are difference of opinions among coaches with regards to freestyle hand motion.
Each part of the arm moves at different speeds and in different directions. The upper arm is moving forward for much of the underwater pull, so that is the part we need to be careful with.
Perhaps the drag in actual swimming with the deep straight arm is more about creating drag in the back end vs the front end. When pressing down with the straight arm you in effect lift your head and chest higher while dropping the hips...therefore losing a more efficient, horizontal hydrodynamic position.
***** Lifting the head while swimming freestyle clearly affects body position and increases frontal drag. So does the straighter deep arm pull ...but for different reasons.
If I'm swimming a 50 free should I pull with high elbow catch or pull deeper?
+Marco Soto The 50 is one event where we see a wider range of elbow positions on the underwater pull. Likely, the best position for the 50 is compromised between the highest elbow position (distance swimmers) and a very deep pull. Even too deep of a pull can hurt you in the 50.
How can I improve my rotation doing the "one arm drill"? Would pool bouy or zoomers help?
davidmyers102 Use fins! Zoomers are ok... DMC training short fins are the best... you can buy them in our store on our website www.theraceclub.com I wouldn't use a pull buoy for this drill.
is there an optimal one arm pull to breath ratio for technique refinement?
Depends on the event. In general, in the 50 sprint, breathe as little as possible. On the 100 and up breathe every cycle (every 2 strokes in freestyle)
If I'm swimming a 50 free should I pull with high elbow catch or pull deeper
+Miles Brown The 50 is one event where we see a wider range of elbow positions on the underwater pull. Likely, the best position for the 50 is compromised between the highest elbow position (distance swimmers) and a very deep pull. Even too deep of a pull can hurt you in the 50.
👍 😉 ‼️ gracias por los subtitulos
you are welcome
God bless everyone hope you all have an amazing week and wonderful holidays!
Thank you!
hello sir, nice video. i am 17 yrs old and my 50m freestyle timings are 28sec, can i drop it down to 26 sec in 3-4 months?? any advice??
Come to The Race Club!
From physics it is difficult to understand why the position of the arm with same frontal area will produce more drag depending on the position (low or high elbow), the only difference I can see is the rotational inertia may be altered depending on where the arm is relative to the "centroid of the body frontal plane) . If arm very close to surface of water then there may be different in pressure due to the water-air layer, so in theory it may be a bit different hydrodynamics (stream lines). Sorry for the technicality.
The amount of drag caused by an object (arm) in a given medium (water) is determined by its shape (surface area), its surface characteristic (slipperiness) and it speed (exponentially). The shape of the upper arm constantly changes as it moves through the pulling cycle. So does its forward speed. The upper arm is problematic only during the front quadrant, as that is the only time it is moving forward. The higher elbow pulling motion helps to keep that part of the arm more in the swimmer's line of motion during that early but crucial part of the pull.
Hope this helps.
Gary
When a swimmer pulls there is no frontal pressure. Or is there?
When the swimmer is in pulling motion, whether the force is down or backwards, there is pressure on the front of the hand.
if im swimming the 100 free what should i do the deep pull or the short arm pull?
+Its manga boy The 100 freestyle is not a sprint, so I would definitely recommend a pull with a higher elbow. You must practice pulling with this motion with force (fast) in order to develop speed for the 100. With the higher elbow and good training, you should be able to finish the race better and hopefully, improve your time.
+theraceclub okay thank you for the advice i will just swim with the deep pull for this 100 and practice the high elbow at our practices. this will be my first meet ever so i hope i can do good.
+Its manga boy Good Luck! Let us know how you do!
+theraceclub will do! i will do my best! 😄
+theraceclub should i use a high elbow for my 50 free? btw im down to 35 on my 50 im proud of myself!
I have to say I agree with sv below. Although I'll try to be more diplomatic about it. There should be no frontal drag created by the arm in the pull phase as it is (or at least should) not be moving relative to the bottom of the pool and the water column. You can actually see this at a couple of points in the video where the swimmer swims past the static camera. The hand/arm stays in the same place relative to the camera as the rest of the swimmer's body moves past. If there is any movement of the arm relative to the pool in the pull phase its backwards as it slips through the water due to inefficiency in its catch on the water. Frontal drag caused by the arm could only possibly be a factor if the swimmer was moving so quickly through the water from other propulsion (dive, push-off, kick) that the arm was effectively moving forwards towards the end of the pool while it was simultaneously moving backwards past the swimmer's body. Apart from immediately after a dive or a push-off this would never be the case. Unaided kick would never create this much propulsion. No-doubt however the arm angle & position has other pros & cons on propulsion.
+Peter Gregory there is not one 'static' camera shot used in this video. If you watch our video series on the underwater pull theraceclub.com/swimisodes/freestyle-underwater-pull-series-lift/ you'll find static shots .... i'll let Gary Sr. answer regarding the physics.
+theraceclub Thanks for the reply and the link to the other video. Those shots show that's its only during the 'lift' phase that the hand is moving forward in the water. By the time the arm is in the 'propulsive' phase (and in the angles discussed in this video) its not moving or moving backwards and therefore frontal drag is not in play. I'd be honoured in GHSnr even read my post let alone replied to it.
+Peter Gregory Thanks Peter. The hand moves forward during the lift phase and the release phase (at the very end of the pull). During these critical times, the hand (and arm) should be positioned in such a way as to cause minimal frontal drag. It is the position of the upper arm during most of the propulsive phases (except the very end) that is problematic for frontal drag forces. This is quite variable depending on the motion used. Gary Sr
This drag appreciation drill does not replicate the motion of the arm during the pulling motion. It is designed to allow swimmers to appreciate the difference in drag forces between the two positions, and they are less with the bent arm. A straight pole out of the window of a car at 60 mph will produce more drag than a pole that is bent 90 degrees in the middle. Water is incompressible so the density doesn't change with the depth (perhaps 5% at the deepest part of the ocean) but the barometric pressure does change quickly. The physics of the drag underwater are not appreciably altered by the depth.
Propulsion is created in swimming mostly by the hands and the feet moving backward relative to the water. The upper arm is moving forward during most of the underwater pull, causing more frontal drag than the lower arm. With the high elbow pull, the upper arm positionally causes less frontal drag than with the deep arm pull.
Thanks for the Sub...
You are welcome!
i notice in some of the videos, some of the swimmer's elbows aren't as close to the surface as others, is the closer the better?
+Davis Kaahanui The closer to the surface, usually the less frontal drag. The deeper elbow can create more power so is often seen more in the sprint events (50 meters).
I would love for you to show some top world swimmers like Nathan Adrian, Caleb Dressel and such, are using their arms/pulling during their best races.
physics: if you arm moves faster laterally than your body in the water, the water flowwing by would always catching up your arm's lateral movement, rather than pushing your arms. In this case, there is no drag of the water, but only your arm pushing water behind. However, in the vedio, the swimer freezed the arm which is totally a different story.
Any part of the human body moving forward will cause frontal drag. With pulling motion, the different parts of the arm move at various speeds, sometimes forward, sometimes downward and sometimes backward. There should be very little lateral movement of the arms/hands during the freestyle and backstroke pull.
This is a math and physics problem. Let's start with a simplified model: moving object in water with propeller rotating at a constant angular speed.
Velocity of moving object = V0, propeller length = r, propeller angle to water surface = θ, propeller angular speed = ω. At any given time point, the friction of a spot on the propeller caused by water = v x dl, where dl is the vertical section of any spot on propeller and therefore = dr Sin(θ), while v is the RELATIVE speed of propeller in water and therefore Vrelative = V0 - ωrSin(θ). Delta friction (dFric) now becomes (V0 - ωrSin(θ)) x dr Sin(θ), or friction Fric = ʃ (V0 - ωrSin(θ)) x drSin(θ) = 0.5ωR^2 x Sin(θ) x (2V0/Rω - Sin(θ)) after integration (R is the full propeller length). Now it comes down to plotting this function Sin(θ) x (2V0/Rω - Sin(θ)) and you can try this with google: when 2V0/Rω=0.5, 1 or 2, which means body speed is quarter, half or equal the arm speed. Looking for the positive sections of this curve in the upper right quadrant:
1). Only 1/3 of the time (0-30, 150-180) the swimmer would suffer from drag (friction) when the arm speed is the same as the body velocity
2). All the way through (0-180), the swimmer would have drag when arm moves half as fast as body
3). All the way through (0-180) with greater extend, the swimmer had huge drag when arm slows down as just quarter the speed of body velocity.
Friction = 0.5ωR^2 x Sin(θ) x (2V0/Rω - Sin(θ)).......................................................Eq1
Eq1 explains how your arm speed impact on the friction part. Even with deep pull, you can minimize the drag by increasing the pull speed. Now it leaves to the coach/swimmer to tell me what is a realistic V0/ωR for serious swimmers.
As for the demo by Roland in the video: His arm is not MOVING at all, now Friction = V0*R, which is a tremendous amount of friction. However, deep stroke arm position he did would have almost twice the drag as the shallow stroke since R is only the forearm rather than the full arm in the shallow stroke position.
Thank you for the lesson. The analogy of the moving arm/hand is not quite the same as a propellor, though similar. The form or pressure drag of the human body and the arm as it moves forward is significantly greater than the drag caused by friction. At any moment in the arm pulling motion, one must know precisely what the amount of surface area and speed of each part of the arm from hand to shoulder is, in order to understand the contribution to frontal drag. The hand goes from forward motion to downward/forward to backward to forward within a few tenths of a second. The upper arm moves forward through most of the pulling motion until the hand is past the shoulder, at which time it also moves backward. The surface area of the hand and upper arm moving forward vary significantly from swimmer to swimmer depending on the size of the swimmer and the technique used.
Hi
There is a lot of effort in video trying to understand the dynamics of the pull. However, most of the conclusions are not scientific as they don't follow physics... it might sound logical but they are not correct
Most of the physics involved in swimming follows Newtonian or Fluid Mechanics, which is derived from Newtons laws of motion.
This experiment of drag vs arm position seems to defy physics! Same area same drag. If you put paddles and don't move them you can get big drag, but at the same time if you use them to propel your body forwards for sure you get more propulsion (assuming no limitation for force provided for the motion). What am I missing here? The other experiment to perform is just keep your arm very close to your body almost hiding it in the body, NO DRAG, but also no propulsion.
Depending on the pulling motion, high elbow vs deeper pull, the surface area of the upper arm is not the same, nor is the speed of that part of the arm moving forward. Therefore, less drag with high elbow pull.
I can't see any part of the video when it's all covered up by the text on the screen. What the??? Is it just me?
Eric Teng Check the * button on the bottom right corner of the screen and make sure the subtitles are turned off?
the drag part is just incorrect to my opinion. As said before, as long as the arm moves backwards relatively to the water there is no drag but propulsion. The more important thing is the VECTOR of this propulsion. Force and direction that is. Elite swimmers are able to put the vector in the right orientation asap by executing a good catch. The direction of the force is 90 degrees from the underarm. Swimming with a straightish arm means the vector is initially aimed upward and only halfway the stroke the force is aimed at the right direction, exactly to the back (parallel to the waterline) that is. Look at how Sun swam his world record 1500 and it will be very clear.
You are right in that force is a vector. Most of the force at the initiation of the pulling hand is downward, causing lift. Once the hand is just in front of the shoulder (about one foot) it changes orientation and begins to move backward. It takes a minimum of .15 seconds for that to happen up to as long as 1 second in swimmers like Sun Yang. From that point to the end of the pull, the force is backward and that is when propulsion is generated. Most of the force generating propulsion occurs at the hand, not in the arm.
@@theraceclub thank you for the reaction.
I would say that as long as the hand is in line with the underarm ( which is the case untill the end of the propulsion where the hand is tilted to keep pushing the water) the vector of the underarm is at least as big as the vector of the hand just because the total surface of the underarm is bigger. That means a bigger surface in exactly the same relative movement from the water as the hand.
So from physics pov i dont see why your hand would contribute more. Is that not the whole idea behind swimming fist drill too?
Drag is a result of sinking body. Think I have given you a useful tip
Yes and no. For a non streamlined object like a human (in the correct position) or a submarine, there is less drag under water than on the surface. Once an object is on the surface, however, there is less drag as the object goes higher on the surface. Hydroplaning is the holy grail for swimmers!
theraceclub Building a broader chest and a lengthier arm pull has its advantages
수영에피소드 - 자유형 기술 향상하기 - 물속에서 젓는 법 |
Swimisodes - Improve Freestyle Technique - How to Pull Underwater
레이쓰클럽
theraceclub
게시일: 2015. 6. 2.
#swimisodes 많은 수영인이 자유형에서 물속 젓기를 배울 때 자연적인 본능에 의지합니다. 하지만 잠깐 멈춰서 팔 젓는 주기 동안에 우리 몸과 팔에 무슨 일이 생기는지 생각해본다면, 우리는 다른 방법으로 젓는 것을 선택할 수도 있습니다. 물속에서 젓는 법에는 꽤 다양한 가능성이 존재합니다. 몸체 한창 아래로 뻗어 당기는 것에서부터 한창 옆으로 내밀어 얕게 당기는 것까지, 경기의 종류와 선수에 따라, 우리 모두에게는 자신에게 가장 잘 맞는 방법이 있습니다.
#swimisodes Many swimmers rely on natural instinct when they learn how to pull underwater in freestyle. But if we stop and think about what happens during the stroke cycle with our arms and body, we might choose to pull in a different way. There is quite a range of possibilities in how to pull underwater. From a pull way underneath our bodies to a pull way out to the side, there is a sweet spot for all of us, depending on the swimmer and the race.
우리 레이쓰클럽에는 "수영선수의 첫 번째 적은 저항력이다"라는 말이 있습니다. 그래서, 물속을 헤쳐 나가는 속도를 내는 데 있어 저항력에 가장 잘 대처하기 위해, 우리는 저항력에 주의를 기울여야만 하고 그 모든 저항력을 느껴야만 합니다. 이번 수영에피소드 #swimisodes 를 통해, 물속 당기기에 있어, "더 강력한 힘과 같은 의미가 있는 깊게 젓기(deep pull)의 장점 對(대) 더 적은 저항력을 만들지만, 또한 더 약한 힘을 내는 팔꿈치 들어 젓기(high elbow pull)"에 대하여 배우십시요.
We have a saying at the Race Club that drag is the number one enemy of the swimmer. Therefore, we must pay attention to drag and feel all it’s forces in order to best deal with it in creating speed through water. In this #swimisodes learn the advantage of a deep pull equating to more power vs the advantage of the high elbow pull creating less drag but also less power during the underwater pull.
우리 레이쓰클럽에서는, 이번 수영에피소드 #swimisodes 에서 본 것과 같은 '저항력 이해 부분훈련' 몇 가지를 연습합니다. 올림픽 4회 출전자인 롤랜드 스쿠만, 세계 챔피언인 준야 코가 그리고 엘리트 초장거리 수영선수인 렉시 켈리가 개리 홀 코치님의 지도로, 우리가 종종 느끼지 못할 수도 있는 '저항력'을 느끼게 해주는 기본 기술을 다시 해보는 것을 관찰하십시요. "더 강력한 힘" 對(대) "더 적은 저항력"의 느낌을 비교하여 대조해보세요. 여러분은 이 부분훈련들을 통해 자유형을 할 때 물속에서 젓는 방법을 이해하게 될 것입니다.
At the Race Club, we practice several 'drag appreciation drills' as seen in this #swimisodes. Watch 4 time Olympian Roland Schoeman, World Champion Junya Koga and Elite Marathon swimmer, Lexie Kelly led by Coach Gary Hall take it back to the basics allowing the swimmer to feel 'drag forces' that may often go unoticed. Compare and contrast the feelings of more power vs. less drag. These drills might help you understand how to pull underwater in swimming freestyle.
시청해주셔서 감사합니다!
Thanks for watching!
제작/감독/편집: 리차드 홀
저술/해설: 개리 홀 시니어
촬영: 프레이지어 나이븐스
지미집 작동: 마이키 몬토야 (Jib and Co)
방수하우징: AquaVideo
Founders Park Islamorada, FL MM87 에 있는 우리 훈련 시설에서 촬영하였습니다.
Producer/Director/Editor: Richard Hall
Writer/Narrator: Gary Hall Sr
Cinematographer: Frazier Nivens
Live Sound: Gustavo Moller
Jib Operator: Mikey Montoya (Jib and Co)
Underwater Housing: AquaVideo
Filmed at our training facility Founders Park Islamorada, FL MM87
Gary Hall Sr. has some nice videos. However, he does not seem to understand physics very well. I've seen several videos in which he misinterpreted the physics of swimming. It is completely wrong to say the deeper pull cause more drag. When your arm pulls faster than your body, it does not cause drag. The arm causes drag only if it pulls slower than the body's speed which never happens in swimming. The drill in the video is a joke. The high elbow pull facilitates early catch and lengthens the distance of effective pull. It has nothing to do with drag.
sz I meant to say "When your arm pulls faster than how fast your body moves in the water, it does not cause drag."
Any part of the human body moving forward in the water will cause drag. The arms move forward during the pull but much more with the upper arm compared to the lower arm.
This video says exactly the opposite of what everyone else says and what is true. High elbow gives by far more drag. At the same time it enhances the posture of the body.
RagHelen .....Could argue this ad infinitum but, the proof/final say is----> the stopwatch. I would guess Mr Hall, an Olympic medalist several times over and 2nd only to the great Mark Spitz (1970's) "back in the day," knows what he's talking about, since he "eats 'n breaths" swimming as a coach.
Haven't seen all his vids but, do recall him sharing/stating what has changed over the yrs, vis-à-vis technology/study/nutrition, etc.
Again, why don't you (anyone, that is...) get a stopwatch, get in a pool, and find out if the guy's telling u true.
You can get good results with deep pull if you have much power in your arms and your shoulders, a not excellent technique (like the guy in the video) and if the race is over after 50m.
Deep pull is not more powerful, it allows and requires to invest more power into it. That's a big difference! If you do both strokes with the same power, high elbow will take you twice as far as the other one.
I can swim with both methods. In a short distant race, I would start with high elbow, pull deep in a very high frequency in the middle (at top speed, when body rotation comes to an end, high elbow involes unnecessary extra movement) and finish with high elbow again, because it enhances the foward focus of mind and body and is much more efficient for using one's inertia. Just look at the guy in the video: If his arms would stop abrupty, he would stop moving forward at the same moment.
When you lower the frequency with deep pull, the second half of the stroke becomes a severe problem: no drag anymore, the arm extended from the body with its complete length. And you have to invest more power only to get the arm back in position.
at first I thought I understood u, RagHelen ....but then your f/u paragraphs confuse/contradict what u wrote earlier.
??????
RagHelen You said "if you do both strokes with the same power". Yeah, but the whole point is that you can't do both strokes with the same power. You trade off max power for less drag as you go from deeper pull to the high elbow. Also, please keep in mind that your whole arm is not involved in propulsion. Think of the middle part (or higher) of your upper arm. That part is just drag, and it's worse the lower you drive it.
RagHelen pretty sure a former Olympic medallist knows what he's talking about... how many of you and your everyone else who says what is true has an Olympic medals? personally, i find deep pull to be having much more drag.... i dont understand how u can find it otherwise... probably dont hv the right technique? dont spread false lies here n confuse others further...
I don"t think this video is very scientifically accurate. First the reason why swimmers feel less drag in the high elbow doing the "drag appreciation" demonstration is because the shoulder muscles are not as strong in that position compared to the low elbow causing the swimmers to not hold as much of a forward facing drag. Secondly since the upper arm is closer to the surface you can see the swimmers wanting to naturally lift it out of the water a little also causing less drag. I think the reasoning behind the video is because water molecules are less dense closer to the surface because weight of the water above it. However none of this should matter because the reason why swimmers move while pulling underwater with their arms is because of the drag forces being produce by the arms. When you pull with your arms their is a higher resistance than the weight of the body in motion causing more forward momentum. It doesn't make sense to pull with a high elbow like this. Otherwise please tell me why?
Agreed, maybe with a high elbow you use the big lat muscle?
"I think the reasoning behind the video is because water molecules are less dense closer to the surface because weight of the water above it"
Sorry, this sentence demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of primary school-level physics. Makes one wonder what sorts of "secrets" you can possibly know
Water is incompressible. Density of water is same at all pool depths. Only parts of the body moving forward relative to the water cause drag. The upper arm is the cause of most of the drag during the pull. The hand causes most of the drag (propulsion force) during the pull. Hope this helps.
Of course there would be drag if you just keep your arm straight down and steady, LOL.
Yes...this is simply a drag appreciation drill. There is also drag when you are pulling. You are just not aware of it.
theraceclub...I use this technique because it is more natural for me. Also, I swim faster using the straight arm technique than the high elbow.
First time disagreeing with a video of yours. I don't think it has to do with frontal drag at all and has everything to do with propulsion to energy cost ratios for different race distances.
First, isn't drag going the other way exactly what causes propulsion? If you took your deep pull drill and imagined it the other way, that means you get a ton of water to hold and therefore use to propel yourself. Same thing with the knee bend in the kick. Otherwise, swimming would just be who can glide the furthest in the best streamline.
You talked a little bit in the comments about all of the propulsive force in the pull coming from the hands and that you can feel that by swimming with a closed fist. This isn't true because even though it feels really bad to swim that way, you don't swim twice as slow, you swim maybe a couple seconds slower per 50?
The real reason is just moment arms and leverages. Force x distance, your hand/fingers feel the most pressure because it's father away from your shoulder/elbow. Deeper pull gives you more leverage and more force x distance to set a better anchor. This is faster and it doesn't cause more drag since drag going backward is what gives you propulsion. The reason you can't do it long is because of it's high energy demand, the same way a high knee in sprinting will go away as the distance gets longer.
The propulsion is generated by the amount of drag moving backward. Other than at the very end of the pulling propulsion cycle, the only parts of the arm moving backward are the hand and forearm. The hand moves backward faster than the forearm and surface is flat, not roundish. The flow around a forearm will not produce a lot of drag. When you close your fist, you are not eliminating the hand. Just making it about 1/3 the size. If you were to chop off your hands, you would see a much bigger loss of propulsion. Same with the feet. One feels more with the hands because the proprioception (density of nerve endings) is much greater in the hands than the forearms...and the pressure is much greater there. The drag from the arm motion is caused almost entirely in the front quadrant of the pull and by the upper arm, once the catch is initiated.
This is so far the most nonsense arguments (the drag thingy) behind swimming technique I have ever watched/heard...
Frontal drag is the number one enemy of the swimmer. By doing these drills you will begin to appreciate how important frontal drag is in determining the speed of a swimmer. They are not designed to replicate precisely the pulling motion, but rather show how sensitive the shape of the human body is in water in causing frontal drag. We think that they achieve that goal.
bla156 Think of it then as "water resistance". The deeper your arm goes into the water as you pull, the more resistance you have to deal with as you swim.
More resistance will mean you will need to use more energy to pull your upper limbs through the water to do your pull ofvthe water back towards the feet. You spend more energy, which in turn wears you out quicker and you will likely slow down greatly from your initial speed.
We try to get as streamline as possible as we swim and also on top of the water fir both front crawl and backstroke as doing those two things helps us by reducing how much "water resistance" will be effecting or speed/energy expenditure as we swim those two strokes.