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To remove TPU that is stuck, heat the bed to 80 degrees C and spray liberally with isopropyl alcohol and peel slowly. As the alcohol wicks under the TPU it will release. Works every time.
For printing TPU (on a standard PEI bed) I break off a little glue stick (Pritt, UHU, Gloy . . .etc) put it in a jar, add around twice as much water, then microwave for 5 seconds (it will boil almost instantly, so just 5 seconds on full power) . . give it a stir and paint it onto the build plate (it will dry very quickly, in seconds if the plate is heated) the print sticks perfectly, and comes off as easily as PLA. This has worked for me 100%, never fails.
@@davelordy Same as Hairspray or 3DLAC, basically a PVA solution. I need to try this with a spray bottle, now that I read it again... Adding in a dash of Isopropyl Alcohol probably won't hurt and makes it evaporate more quickly and with less residue probably.
@@SixxthSon I mean use the raft feature to include a peel-off layer(s) - overhang provides tabs - then print the raft in alternative material - rafts can be configured to be just 2 normal layers - no need for a specific "extra layer" with tab
@@MrOgMonster right...and that idea is what I was responding to. Try it yourself and report back if you like but I can tell you having tried exactly what you describe that cutting the model and including the layers in the print works better, especially with a nice sized brim.
Yes, TPU adheres too well to a smooth PEI sheet... But I've forgotten to switch to the textured sheet and printed TPU on the smooth sheet.... But I DIDN'T ruin my build surface to get it off. Pro tip: use Isopropyl alcohol around the base of the stuck TPU print, wait a while for capillary action to cause it to seep under the edge of the TPU print .. your patience will be rewarded... As the IPA works it's way under the print, it causes the TPU to release, with no damage to the bed nor the print.
would love to see a final data sheet on what filaments work well with other filaments and what didn't, including ones that were used as the base layer that didn't seperate at all, This might be good in a case where you need a first layer face to be one material and the rest to be another material.
That would be very interesting to see, technically it'd be possible to test both PEI-TPU as well as PEI-PCTG tensile strength as you can buy PEI filament. Not that printing it would be an easy task. Having a list of filaments tensile strength between layers wouldn't just be useful for printing difficult materials easier, or safer for the print bed, but you could also use it as a cheat-sheet for which multi-filament prints would work well together.
@@Levoron So you're saying that if you print with normal bed temperatures with an enclosure, then you don't need to do something different if you print with low bed temperature and no enclosure? Technically, you're perfectly correct.
I think this is the first TH-cam video that describes this method to print on top of different material. I have used this trick for little while when trying to get ABS to stick on bed. I usually do design and slice (I'm using Cura) the final object (ABS material) without any bed adhesion aids (brim, raft, skirt,...). Then I just save the GCODE file. Before deleting the object I bring another 0.2mm thick (single layer) round or rectangle object to Cura and place and scale it under the original object so that it is just slightly larger than the final print. It basically becomes the raft for the print. At that point I delete the original object, modify the print parameters for PETG, and save the "raft" GCODE. The actual printing works such as I first print the "raft" with PETG material. Once it is done I keep the bed hot (I use 80---90C) and change the filament to ABS. After that I just print the final object on top of the PETG "raft". I have found PETG works great under ABS. PETG sticks to a glass bed (with glue layer) very well. Once print is done and cooled the PETG "raft" can be peeled off from the ABS object rather easily. The single layer PETG-brim does rise the bed 0.2mm up. The final object needs 0.2mm z-offset correction but that's done automatically when printer calibrates the z-offset before starting every print. (In other words: automatic bed z-offset calibration is almost mandatory for this to work. In addition the object should be at the center of the bed where the printer will measure the z-offset before starting the print.)
THIS IS SO COOL!!!🤯 This is really useful for people who has Bambu lab a1 and a1 mini with ams system. The problem with a1 mini is that the print bed only can reach 80°C and with this trick you can print with abs/asa in that low temp bed with or without enclosure! Please keep documenting these project I see no one doing this trick except you Thank you.
This is brilliant! I've had great results with PLA and ASA. I had to print some small letters in a particular colour that I only have in ASA, and I just couldn't get them to stick. Added 2 layers of PLA underneath and has zero problems, it sticks to the bed and separates with a quick flex afterwards. Thanks!
Question: Wouldn't using the raft support setting be the easiest way to add those first few layers on a part? It's built right into slicers, and would then give an edge to pull away on combinations that can be pulled away. It also makes it easy to find the layer where you should change filament, if doing it manually. Poor rafts, the slicer setting that people seem to have forgotten about. :)
Yeah, I felt like I was going insane thinking this just sounded like rafts from early reprap days but with easier layer swaps with different filament. What is old is new once again. Still cool and worth being brought back.
I was not aware of rafts. I checked my bambu slicer and there it is. Simple! I am even able to adjust the filament easily! Gotta keep this tip in mind in the future
@@JadeZukas In my experience, the raft can be printed with enormous line width on the first layer, than full speed on second. Not much time is wasted (what is 3-10 minutes in a 24 hour print) only material. It has several parameter in the slicer, and I do not have to remodell surface models to have accurate height dimensions and to add peeloff thingies.
The problem with abs and asa is, that if printed without a hot chamber the prints get really weak. Try printing it at above 55°C or even higher like 65°C, you don't have warping and the prints are really strong.
@-_-._.-. That won't help. Try it yourself, you can break abs parts printed at room temperature very easy, but uf printed at 60 °C there very strong. Layer adhesion gets even better than petg
Great idea! Also you should mention the open air consequences of printing higher temp filaments-VOCs. Some people may jump into this unknowingly, so if you could use your voice to keep others safe, that would be a huge service to the community!
Such a simple and very promising solution for open frame printers! I didn't see this solution on YT yet, well done, and I hope it will give you a lot more viewers, therefore this comment for you 🙂
this is brilliant!! you may have opened the door to engineering materials to people with basic printers! if you're the first person to start doing this, we should call it jantec stacking or something.
Would be great if you can test how the first layer pattern affects the warping. Maybe you can do the first layer slightly larger circle with no walls and a circular pattern infil.
My Stratasys Fortus from 2010 actually did this. So its not completely new. But it was pretty annoying on the fortus as you couldn't turn the feature off or adjust it. I could see this being a great addition with multi material becoming more popular.
@@paulmarinis6069 I also have couple of rolls of good pp and made some prints in the past. Which are still amazing from durability standpoint. I printed on a pp based double sided sticky tape on a smooth steel sheet. I would be interested in "solving" pp bed adhesion, will try the petg route.
Really awesome! I recently printed PP and of course had to resort to the old packing tape trick. Works best on a smooth build surface like PEA. I did try buying plain PP sheets, but of course the print bonded so I had to cut or melt out a portion of the sheet and then sand off the remaining sheet portion. I wonder if some kind of glue interface could mitigate that issue. I was wondering if I could print a layer of a different filament and print the PP on top, but had heard that PP doesn't stick to any other filaments. Your results with PETG are promising and I will definitely try it out! I wonder if a PETG-CF could adhere better thanks to the rough surface. I have PP-GF, perhaps all the fibers will help. Will report back.
I was looking in the Bambu forum and got: “Just create a custom profile for the filament and set the temperatures however you want. The default profiles are intended as starting points. Tweaking them to achieve your particular objectives is normal/expected.” So basically you just need to set both material as “PLA” With different colour then you manually made a custom melting point on your abs filament! Let me know if its works😊
Using this for TPU is very interesting idea. I don't have problem with bed adhesion for other materials. TPU holds just too much. I have rather problem with ABS or PETG which sometime lift whole magnetic sheet from bed itself. Also this technique is often used for peelable supports with 0mm Z distance from the model if you have multimaterial available.
Increase your z-offset for TPU, it bonds well because it's easy to squish into stuff like textured PEI crevices(and when it cools, it just flexes instead of self-releasing), control the squish! I do the opposite with ABS to help it bond better. 0.15mm for it while all others I do stay at 0.20mm
This is such an incredible idea!!! What would be good for printing nylon? That's another material that sucks on bed adhesion that I'd be interested printing with
For Nylon (PA), you may be better off getting a PA print sheet, such as that Prusa sells for its printers. I've had excellent bed adhesion with it and it doesn't need any adhesive/glue. I think MatterHackers or BuildTak sell a similar surface. I've head garolite is good but personally found I had to use Magigoo PA with it to get good bed adhesion. Nylon sticks best to, well, Nylon. Hence why kapton tape is so commonly recommended for it. There are a lot of other issues with printing Nylon though. I have printed it successfully on open frame machines, but don't expect high dimensional accuracy. Warping is just too common without an enclosure or at least some control over ambient temperature, unless you're printing small parts (
Great video, Thank you for your time and energy producing helpful videos! I like the tables you are supporting. If you want to save your back, buy an Aeron chair, there is nothing better world wide.
I'm printing parts right now for my upcoming MK4S build, and it's my first time printing ASA. There's been a lot of warping, and lots of prints tossed in the trash. Luckily the parts are all relatively small, and haven't used up a ton of filament. I think I might give the PLA/ASA trick a try on the last few parts!
Very interesting! I also like that you can do this on Open Frame printers, which makes them more versatile than enclosed printers (you can easily enclose an open frame, but you can’t expose a closed frame.)
You are an absolute legend!!! I’ve been having a huge pain trying to get Asa to stop warping even on my Bambu printers and I’ve tried everything. Tried this and it works amazingly!!! You should contact Bambu lab or orcaslicer team to get this incorporated into the slicer. This is a serious leap forward in print ability with more exotic materials and you deserve the credit for this breakthrough. Amazing video too you earned yourself a sub! 🎉🎉
How did you manage to get it to print on a Bambu? When I set PLA as the raft material for an ASA part, Bambu Studio throws an error saying that the temperature difference between the two materials is too large and it doesn't even let me slice the plate.
@@jaredarm I haven't printed ASA with any support interface material. I'd suggest finding something that doesnt bind with ASA and prints in a similar temp range, perhaps PETG.
Thanks for sharing. I've been in this hobby for a while. What you are showing here can work in some cases even on non multi material printers. Awesome for the community. This and Prusa releasing adaptive mesh and purge points for older printers with just firmware a update.
Pretty Interesting idea. I think most of the people who have problems with ABS/ASA bed adhesion and warping are people who print with Bedslingers due to part always moving thru the air and cooling down during the print. I see most of your research is based of Prusa XL which might be missing audience who this be most useful for.
Could You make a chart / recap as a reference so that we could check out which material to use as an interface layer for the hard to adhere materials and which materials can be used for easy to remove supports? I feel like that would be VERY popular around the community.
What i can see in the Bambu forum is: You just need to set your Abs/Asa as “PLA” with different colour and use the custom setting to set higher melting point on that filament! Let me know if its works 😊
Makes me wonder if someone can design a specific filament type that sticks well to beds and other plastics, but not too well. Or perhaps using a dissolvable filament, like i've seen used for supports, as the first layer - I wonder how well it'd stick to things.
Very interesting concept, and worth having crack at this method. I did not see anything about temperatures, as using different materials. Great video, regards
I had no problems with removing PLA rafts from ABS parts, they just peeled straight off. Though the ABS I tried it with was some ancient unlabeled spool that was in storage for better half of a decade. Smelled great on an open printer. Maybe more modern and less smelly ABS blends adhere stronger to PLA. I also tried it with what I'm pretty sure is HIPS (it printed with same settings but didn't smell and did result in a characteristically weak part), and it also got the peeling action going. What I did have a problem with is that raft support in modern slicers seems to be stuck in 2016. I had to resort to some manual gcode editing to make single-layer rafts work properly.
I gotta try this...I've been playing with Tullomer for a while...bed adhesion remains an issue. When it prints right, it is a stand-in for aluminum parts of the same dimensions. 'When it prints right' is about one of three. Ick. Been using Magigoo PC as bed adhesive...print-bed runs at 120C! I am thinking that a layer (or three!) of TPU will do a better job, hopefully at a lower bed temp.
Is there a chart anywhere with the adhesion ratings for different materials with each other? This video is really exciting but it's very hard to remember which material to use with which.
I tried using pla as supoort material for asa prints in my x1, unfortunately what happens is that the chamber temperature while printing asa rises enough to soften the pla filament as it`s entering the printer, before it reaches the extruder , with the obvious consequence of everything getting jammed up.
For TPU I've been experimenting with rubbing a very light layer of machine oil on smooth PEI. I've had good results and it's so much easier to clean than PVA glue. I'd still recommend a spring steel flex plate and I did notice some oil seems to effect the color of white filament so be mindful of that. I was playing with PLA base layers for ASA on a modified Ender 2 years ago and it works brilliantly but you should still really have an enclosure to avoid other issues. These days it's mostly what I print and just use cheap enclosures with a smooth PEI sheets cleaned with a small dab of acetone on a microfiber cloth (do NOT squirt it on the bed). I don't recommend using IPA. The bed has to be 105-110C though which despite what people often think, it is actually fine for most printers but be careful.
@@vim55k Well it primarily strips and preps the surface, allowing the PEI sheet to stick as it should but I'm not entirely sure why it works so well. I'm suspicious that it also dissolves the residue from the prior prints onto the surface (like buffing a car with wax). Just remember it can potentially damage PEI if you squirt a lot of it directly on the bed so always use it with a rag. I've done this with spring steel PEI beds for years and have had no issues.
Thank you so much. Had my very FIRST successful ASA print using PLA as the first layer on my P1S. Now just need a way to trick Bambu studio to use PLA as a raft for ASA prints.
I'm having the same issue with Bambu Studio not allowing a PLA raft. How did you successfully print a PLA first layer on the P1S? Does it not use Bambu Studio?
@@jaredarm I sliced my object as PLA then added a layer change at layer 2 to ASA in bambu studio. I've been experimenting with adding a disc primitive to the first layer too but you risk losing the first layer.
cool, I've got some stuff ready to test on the a1 to run as soon as it's free again. if this ends up being a reliable way to print pp, I'll be so happy as I can dump the dedicated pp printer and get something else for that spot.
I don't know about your country, but we have on the market a special crystal liquid for gluing prints to the bed. Any ABS plastic holds so that there are no detachments! The part itself stick off when the temperature of the bed drops below 50 degrees. I print on smooth glass. I put 2-3 drops on a cotton sponge, and rub it with the thinnest layer, so that even traces are not visible.
@@JanTecEngineering It's not easy to explain. The fact is that I am from a country that does not have trade relations with Europe and the West. And such a product is unlikely to be found on your market. I know that this is a mixture of PVP and isopropyl with additives. Try to find by searching in the original language "клей 3D печать (glue 3D printing)", perhaps you will be shown several versions of this solution.
Make the first layer bigger (X, Y) than the part by using an offset. If you add a fillet in CAD around the bottom of the main part, (in base layer material), that might help as well.
But what is the font you're using on the PULL HERE label? It looks much better than the stencil fonts I use. I'm trying your technique next time I print in ASA, thanks for the great video.
Spray isopropyl alcohol onto TPU prints to make them just fall off the bed! It's magical, no glue or separators. The TPU sucks up the alcohol like a spong and pops off. (Also, PLA is premo support material for clean PETG undersides)
Neat! I got a Bambulab A1 as an early Christmas present with the AMS Lite, and I had the thought of getting an enclosed printer in the future (I still will), but I do still want to experiment with ASA, PA6-CF, and just carbon fiber, and I've been turned off by it due to lack of information, warping and needing a heating chamber and blah blah blah (Yes i know about the death fumes). Buuuuut now I really want to try out the PLA with ASA trick as it looked perfect! Please, if you can, make more videos about printing with these types of filaments on an open bed! I'm so close to just getting a roll of ASA and setting up my A1 in the garage and playing around for a day lol. Anyways you got a new subscriber :)
I want to add another example in case anyone is looking for it: I was not able to get PC/PTFE-filament to stick to any build surface. Workaround was to print it on top of an ABS layer. BUT it sticks too well. So the ABS will stay on the bottom surface of your part.
Hello Jan, Nice video. I was very interested in trying this with my Bambu Lab X1-E but when I slice it using PLA as the first layer and ABS after the Bambu Studio complains about the high temperature difference in between them, I think it can be bypass by creating a different material profile. Just in case, I'll try a bit more. Thanks
This is truly an incredible video! The ASA I've been printing with sticks too well to PEI so I use glue stick but that's sometimes not enough adhesion and the shrinkage causes it to lift from the plate. Bambu Studio won't allow PLA to be used as a raft on an ASA print because the temperature difference between the two materials is too high... There must be a way to suppress that warning / error... Does anyone know how to do this in Bambu Studio?
i get 0 warp with abs. i just put a cardboard box over the open printer ;) the shrink is unavoidable and should be corrected in your slicer. i use this trick for support interface with pla. its gamechanger if you have multimaterial patience i found a "hack" for PP that actually works for enclosed "cardboard certified" rigs! its called PEX, 110-130c and you MUST wait for the pex to cool off to at least 45c. and if it still sticks DO NOT PRY OR PULL!! just put it under running water. (i learned this the hard way.. cant print in the centre of that plate anymore) 🤭 you dont have to cut the model though. u can just use a modifier box and choose the material for that box by right clicking it and select change filament type :) easy to get that misaligned if you want like chamfer the bottom. plus u can do this for any section of any model with like 2 minutes of my speed of fidding 😇 the bonding in the purgetower is from the elevated flowrate set for the purgetower. check gcode to see it. lower it to the printing speed and you are gucci for not making those blobs or faults.
I’m going to be honest…. I may have clipped a section of your video with you saying PP a few times. My childish brain couldn’t help it. Also great video 😂 🙌🏻
In prusa material guide they say print TPU (flex materials) on PEI/satin with a glue stick. For textured sheet they say nothing is needed becouse it sticks well. I haven't ever used any TPU, it is really that hard to print with?
I'm still missing some information. Does this ASA part print just as well without the PLA base? does the PLA base have better "bed adhesion" that the build plate even though it peels off?
Fabulous method. 3:23 in and I have to say, instead of worrying about peeling it off, leave it on. Ok, that’s considering whatever the part is going to be used for but, if it can be included I’d choose to leave it. Great stuff, thanks!
Very interesting. I've started printing PP and with Magigoo and a trick of printing the first layer with a very hot bed and then letter the bed cool before continuing, it sticks pretty well. My turning the aux cooling fan off and part cooling fan to low, warpage is limited. PP-CF is magic with almost no warping and good adhesion with Magigoo. What temperature did you maintain your bed at for the PETG-PP combination? Did you try keeping it on the hot side, above 70 or 80C?
Was du brauchst, für TPU ASA ABS HP usw ist eine Behausung mit Druckraumheizung! Würde außerdem eher glatte Oberflächen nehmen wie GFK Platten oder Glas. Klingt absurd, aber die Welt der Filamente mit hohen Temperaturen ist halt eine andere als die von PETG und PLA. Btw. Ich druck lieber mit ABS und ASA als mit den PLA oder Petg. Das Petg ist Teilwiese eine ziemliche sauerrei, wenn man die Drucker einstellt :D What you need for TPU ASA ABS HP etc. is a housing with pressure chamber heating! I would also use smooth surfaces such as GRP sheets or glass. Sounds absurd, but the world of filaments with high temperatures is just a different one than that of PETG and PLA. Btw. I prefer to print with ABS and ASA than with PLA or Petg. The Petg is sometimes a bit of a pain when you adjust the printers :D
This is so cool, love the technique. Do you plan to expand the test to other materials? I would love to see if this can work with PC blend filaments. It’ll be wild if this can unlock super strong parts on mass market printers.
On my XL I love to print parts with organic support. Is it possible to start with this support at the end height (e.g. 3 layers) of the PLA when I want to use ASA for the final part? Thank you very much for your superb work! Mein Abo hast du…
These are relatively non-problematic filaments with deent adhesion and not that big issue with warping. Wpuld be more interested in more problematic filaments like PC or PA given PC's warping and PA's adhesiion issues. Before Prusa's PC I had tonnes of issues printing PC and I did use layers of PETG for adhesion even for smaller parts but usually i didn'nt bother making them peel off as single or two layers sidn't really affect the parts i was printing.
I wish someone comes up with a patch that allows printing bottom n layers with this cut trick with vase mode. I want to put my printer to print multiple vase objects after each other and have the first 1-2 layers printed with PLA and then the actual vase from ABS. Currently it is impossible, I tried it by manually editing G-code and it was really frustrating and I think I got something out of it, but the ABS vase warped like crazy so it went to thrash and I didn't want to try again with a different design because the setup was so tedious.
What I am looking for is how can I print nanovia's PC-PTFE low friction filament. It sounds really good but I can't for the life of me even calibrate my Bamboo to print it.
In my opinions two of the accessible yet annoying materials that could benefit from this are nylon and PC, it would be cool to see what works with these two
I am new to 3D but what if you made the PLA one path small or if needed a few more paths small this may not always, but it is just an idea because I know you put a lot of work into your videos thumbs up!
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To remove TPU that is stuck, heat the bed to 80 degrees C and spray liberally with isopropyl alcohol and peel slowly. As the alcohol wicks under the TPU it will release. Works every time.
Do this in a ventilated area as a hot flash of alcohol will release TVOCs
@@bravohomie It doesn't have to be hot, even. IPA evaporates quite quickly.
Good to know, I had to use a knife to get my TPU off my bed once.
For printing TPU (on a standard PEI bed) I break off a little glue stick (Pritt, UHU, Gloy . . .etc) put it in a jar, add around twice as much water, then microwave for 5 seconds (it will boil almost instantly, so just 5 seconds on full power) . . give it a stir and paint it onto the build plate (it will dry very quickly, in seconds if the plate is heated) the print sticks perfectly, and comes off as easily as PLA. This has worked for me 100%, never fails.
@@davelordy Same as Hairspray or 3DLAC, basically a PVA solution. I need to try this with a spray bottle, now that I read it again... Adding in a dash of Isopropyl Alcohol probably won't hurt and makes it evaporate more quickly and with less residue probably.
Neat! I’d love to see these kind of peel-off layers (with the tabs) incorporated into future slicers, maybe as an alternative “raft” design
That would be very useful.
isnt that just rafts?
@@MrOgMonster trying with just a raft gives a poor result in high warping materials like PP. This approach works better.
@@SixxthSon I mean use the raft feature to include a peel-off layer(s) - overhang provides tabs - then print the raft in alternative material - rafts can be configured to be just 2 normal layers - no need for a specific "extra layer" with tab
@@MrOgMonster right...and that idea is what I was responding to. Try it yourself and report back if you like but I can tell you having tried exactly what you describe that cutting the model and including the layers in the print works better, especially with a nice sized brim.
Thank you for covering PP! Nobody seems to use it, but it is really cool material.
Yes, TPU adheres too well to a smooth PEI sheet... But I've forgotten to switch to the textured sheet and printed TPU on the smooth sheet.... But I DIDN'T ruin my build surface to get it off. Pro tip: use Isopropyl alcohol around the base of the stuck TPU print, wait a while for capillary action to cause it to seep under the edge of the TPU print .. your patience will be rewarded... As the IPA works it's way under the print, it causes the TPU to release, with no damage to the bed nor the print.
I get poor TPU bed adhesion on smooth PEI sheet. Clean bed, dried filament, go figure
would love to see a final data sheet on what filaments work well with other filaments and what didn't, including ones that were used as the base layer that didn't seperate at all, This might be good in a case where you need a first layer face to be one material and the rest to be another material.
I'm still working on further tests with material like Nylon and PC.
Then I will put together an overview, but I'm not sure yet where to publish it...
@@JanTecEngineering that is what I would like to know about
@@JanTecEngineeringyou could have it on your webside, and just make a link to it
That would be very interesting to see, technically it'd be possible to test both PEI-TPU as well as PEI-PCTG tensile strength as you can buy PEI filament. Not that printing it would be an easy task.
Having a list of filaments tensile strength between layers wouldn't just be useful for printing difficult materials easier, or safer for the print bed, but you could also use it as a cheat-sheet for which multi-filament prints would work well together.
Great video.
Printing ASA at 60°C Bed temp is really interesting.
ASA is here at ~ 100-105 ′C Bed temperature. ASA like most so 255°C and ~ 60°C in his chamberheater. If you do so, you dont need this tricks.
@@Levoron So you're saying that if you print with normal bed temperatures with an enclosure, then you don't need to do something different if you print with low bed temperature and no enclosure?
Technically, you're perfectly correct.
I think this is the first TH-cam video that describes this method to print on top of different material. I have used this trick for little while when trying to get ABS to stick on bed. I usually do design and slice (I'm using Cura) the final object (ABS material) without any bed adhesion aids (brim, raft, skirt,...). Then I just save the GCODE file. Before deleting the object I bring another 0.2mm thick (single layer) round or rectangle object to Cura and place and scale it under the original object so that it is just slightly larger than the final print. It basically becomes the raft for the print. At that point I delete the original object, modify the print parameters for PETG, and save the "raft" GCODE.
The actual printing works such as I first print the "raft" with PETG material. Once it is done I keep the bed hot (I use 80---90C) and change the filament to ABS. After that I just print the final object on top of the PETG "raft".
I have found PETG works great under ABS. PETG sticks to a glass bed (with glue layer) very well. Once print is done and cooled the PETG "raft" can be peeled off from the ABS object rather easily.
The single layer PETG-brim does rise the bed 0.2mm up. The final object needs 0.2mm z-offset correction but that's done automatically when printer calibrates the z-offset before starting every print. (In other words: automatic bed z-offset calibration is almost mandatory for this to work. In addition the object should be at the center of the bed where the printer will measure the z-offset before starting the print.)
It's definitely not. This has been tested many times already, just mostly for supports rather than rafts.
THIS IS SO COOL!!!🤯
This is really useful for people who has Bambu lab a1 and a1 mini with ams system.
The problem with a1 mini is that the print bed only can reach 80°C and with this trick you can print with abs/asa in that low temp bed with or without enclosure!
Please keep documenting these project
I see no one doing this trick except you
Thank you.
This is brilliant! I've had great results with PLA and ASA. I had to print some small letters in a particular colour that I only have in ASA, and I just couldn't get them to stick. Added 2 layers of PLA underneath and has zero problems, it sticks to the bed and separates with a quick flex afterwards. Thanks!
Question: Wouldn't using the raft support setting be the easiest way to add those first few layers on a part? It's built right into slicers, and would then give an edge to pull away on combinations that can be pulled away. It also makes it easy to find the layer where you should change filament, if doing it manually.
Poor rafts, the slicer setting that people seem to have forgotten about. :)
Yeah, I felt like I was going insane thinking this just sounded like rafts from early reprap days but with easier layer swaps with different filament.
What is old is new once again. Still cool and worth being brought back.
Rafts just use far more material and take much longer to print.
@@JadeZukas you can fiddle with raft settings
I was not aware of rafts. I checked my bambu slicer and there it is. Simple! I am even able to adjust the filament easily! Gotta keep this tip in mind in the future
@@JadeZukas In my experience, the raft can be printed with enormous line width on the first layer, than full speed on second. Not much time is wasted (what is 3-10 minutes in a 24 hour print) only material. It has several parameter in the slicer, and I do not have to remodell surface models to have accurate height dimensions and to add peeloff thingies.
The problem with abs and asa is, that if printed without a hot chamber the prints get really weak.
Try printing it at above 55°C or even higher like 65°C, you don't have warping and the prints are really strong.
Just blast it with hot gun afterward?
@-_-._.-. That won't help.
Try it yourself, you can break abs parts printed at room temperature very easy, but uf printed at 60 °C there very strong. Layer adhesion gets even better than petg
Great idea! Also you should mention the open air consequences of printing higher temp filaments-VOCs. Some people may jump into this unknowingly, so if you could use your voice to keep others safe, that would be a huge service to the community!
That flexispot desk flexes as much as the TPU you're printing with!! Look at that sucker smile!
Maybe it's tired? It looks like it's yawning.
Such a simple and very promising solution for open frame printers! I didn't see this solution on YT yet, well done, and I hope it will give you a lot more viewers, therefore this comment for you 🙂
Thank you so much! Helps a lot.
This trick can also be used for peel off supports. ASA with PLA supports, and they peel off relatively easily
this is brilliant!! you may have opened the door to engineering materials to people with basic printers! if you're the first person to start doing this, we should call it jantec stacking or something.
AMAZING! What an insight! You win, one internet..
Would be great if you can test how the first layer pattern affects the warping. Maybe you can do the first layer slightly larger circle with no walls and a circular pattern infil.
You're advancing the hobby at a rapid pace with this one simple trick. Thank you!
My Stratasys Fortus from 2010 actually did this. So its not completely new. But it was pretty annoying on the fortus as you couldn't turn the feature off or adjust it. I could see this being a great addition with multi material becoming more popular.
I love the concept of the pull off layer with a label!
PETG/TPU Combination sounds like it would be a game changer for high impact applications like quadcopter frames.
Was hoping for more PP tests.
Would it work with TPU?
Or perhaps with abs,asa, pet etc.
I will definitely try pp with a tpu base.
Update: PP does not stick to TPU at all!
@@paulmarinis6069 I also have couple of rolls of good pp and made some prints in the past. Which are still amazing from durability standpoint. I printed on a pp based double sided sticky tape on a smooth steel sheet. I would be interested in "solving" pp bed adhesion, will try the petg route.
Does this mean you can stack prints on top of each other with a peelable layer between them if they are flexible enough to start peeling?
Really awesome! I recently printed PP and of course had to resort to the old packing tape trick. Works best on a smooth build surface like PEA. I did try buying plain PP sheets, but of course the print bonded so I had to cut or melt out a portion of the sheet and then sand off the remaining sheet portion. I wonder if some kind of glue interface could mitigate that issue. I was wondering if I could print a layer of a different filament and print the PP on top, but had heard that PP doesn't stick to any other filaments. Your results with PETG are promising and I will definitely try it out! I wonder if a PETG-CF could adhere better thanks to the rough surface. I have PP-GF, perhaps all the fibers will help. Will report back.
Impressive research!
Thanks for your big job of inspire all of us, to see now possibilities!
Thanks for sharing your experiences with all of us 🙂
I was thinking about this topic today… and now I see this video XD TH-cam kann read minds and you are ahead of the time XD
Brilliant Idea!
This vid goes into my "Tips and Tricks" folder.
👍😁👍
You can always set a custom flow rate for the first layer to make it even easier to peal it
I'm getting an error in Bambu / Orca, I can't print multiple materials which have large temperature differnces together
Same! I've been looking for a solution but haven't found one yet, have you?
I was looking in the Bambu forum and got:
“Just create a custom profile for the filament and set the temperatures however you want. The default profiles are intended as starting points. Tweaking them to achieve your particular objectives is normal/expected.”
So basically you just need to set both material as “PLA” With different colour then you manually made a custom melting point on your abs filament!
Let me know if its works😊
@@jaredarm^
What, Printing ABS at 60°C Bed? Isn't that illegal?
Super cool! You did so much research. What a great video!!🎉🎉🎉
Using this for TPU is very interesting idea. I don't have problem with bed adhesion for other materials. TPU holds just too much. I have rather problem with ABS or PETG which sometime lift whole magnetic sheet from bed itself.
Also this technique is often used for peelable supports with 0mm Z distance from the model if you have multimaterial available.
Increase your z-offset for TPU, it bonds well because it's easy to squish into stuff like textured PEI crevices(and when it cools, it just flexes instead of self-releasing), control the squish! I do the opposite with ABS to help it bond better. 0.15mm for it while all others I do stay at 0.20mm
Great info. I may have to go back and try some big ASA prints I couldn't stop from warping.
This is such an incredible idea!!! What would be good for printing nylon? That's another material that sucks on bed adhesion that I'd be interested printing with
For Nylon (PA), you may be better off getting a PA print sheet, such as that Prusa sells for its printers. I've had excellent bed adhesion with it and it doesn't need any adhesive/glue. I think MatterHackers or BuildTak sell a similar surface. I've head garolite is good but personally found I had to use Magigoo PA with it to get good bed adhesion. Nylon sticks best to, well, Nylon. Hence why kapton tape is so commonly recommended for it.
There are a lot of other issues with printing Nylon though. I have printed it successfully on open frame machines, but don't expect high dimensional accuracy. Warping is just too common without an enclosure or at least some control over ambient temperature, unless you're printing small parts (
Great video, Thank you for your time and energy producing helpful videos! I like the tables you are supporting. If you want to save your back, buy an Aeron chair, there is nothing better world wide.
I'm printing parts right now for my upcoming MK4S build, and it's my first time printing ASA. There's been a lot of warping, and lots of prints tossed in the trash. Luckily the parts are all relatively small, and haven't used up a ton of filament. I think I might give the PLA/ASA trick a try on the last few parts!
That sounds like a good application to try out this trick. Let me know how it went!
Very interesting! I also like that you can do this on Open Frame printers, which makes them more versatile than enclosed printers (you can easily enclose an open frame, but you can’t expose a closed frame.)
You are an absolute legend!!! I’ve been having a huge pain trying to get Asa to stop warping even on my Bambu printers and I’ve tried everything. Tried this and it works amazingly!!! You should contact Bambu lab or orcaslicer team to get this incorporated into the slicer. This is a serious leap forward in print ability with more exotic materials and you deserve the credit for this breakthrough. Amazing video too you earned yourself a sub! 🎉🎉
I had to get my chamber up to 50c+ to combat the warping. I folded a moving blanket and put it over the top glass, not Ideal but it worked
How did you manage to get it to print on a Bambu? When I set PLA as the raft material for an ASA part, Bambu Studio throws an error saying that the temperature difference between the two materials is too large and it doesn't even let me slice the plate.
@@jaredarm I haven't printed ASA with any support interface material. I'd suggest finding something that doesnt bind with ASA and prints in a similar temp range, perhaps PETG.
This is crazy for A1 mini and A1 user with ams 🤯🤯
Thanks for sharing. I've been in this hobby for a while. What you are showing here can work in some cases even on non multi material printers. Awesome for the community. This and Prusa releasing adaptive mesh and purge points for older printers with just firmware a update.
Pretty Interesting idea. I think most of the people who have problems with ABS/ASA bed adhesion and warping are people who print with Bedslingers due to part always moving thru the air and cooling down during the print. I see most of your research is based of Prusa XL which might be missing audience who this be most useful for.
Could You make a chart / recap as a reference so that we could check out which material to use as an interface layer for the hard to adhere materials and which materials can be used for easy to remove supports? I feel like that would be VERY popular around the community.
The Bambu AMS is not happy when combining filaments of different temperatures, how does one get around this?
What i can see in the Bambu forum is:
You just need to set your Abs/Asa as “PLA” with different colour and use the custom setting to set higher melting point on that filament!
Let me know if its works 😊
Makes me wonder if someone can design a specific filament type that sticks well to beds and other plastics, but not too well.
Or perhaps using a dissolvable filament, like i've seen used for supports, as the first layer - I wonder how well it'd stick to things.
Prusament ASA natural print anyway without warping in a cold environment, I have printed many parts with it on my prusa mini without any issues
Very interesting concept, and worth having crack at this method. I did not see anything about temperatures, as using different materials. Great video, regards
I had no problems with removing PLA rafts from ABS parts, they just peeled straight off. Though the ABS I tried it with was some ancient unlabeled spool that was in storage for better half of a decade. Smelled great on an open printer. Maybe more modern and less smelly ABS blends adhere stronger to PLA.
I also tried it with what I'm pretty sure is HIPS (it printed with same settings but didn't smell and did result in a characteristically weak part), and it also got the peeling action going.
What I did have a problem with is that raft support in modern slicers seems to be stuck in 2016. I had to resort to some manual gcode editing to make single-layer rafts work properly.
I gotta try this...I've been playing with Tullomer for a while...bed adhesion remains an issue.
When it prints right, it is a stand-in for aluminum parts of the same dimensions.
'When it prints right' is about one of three. Ick.
Been using Magigoo PC as bed adhesive...print-bed runs at 120C!
I am thinking that a layer (or three!) of TPU will do a better job, hopefully at a lower bed temp.
Another fantastically useful video, thanks and keep up the great work!
Thank you, greatly appreciated!
Is there a chart anywhere with the adhesion ratings for different materials with each other? This video is really exciting but it's very hard to remember which material to use with which.
12:16 You should try 2 PLA layers + 2 TPU layers + a final print in PP. I think that this 3 step process could work for PP.
I tried using pla as supoort material for asa prints in my x1, unfortunately what happens is that the chamber temperature while printing asa rises enough to soften the pla filament as it`s entering the printer, before it reaches the extruder , with the obvious consequence of everything getting jammed up.
Thanks for taking care of Marlin based printers 👍
For TPU I've been experimenting with rubbing a very light layer of machine oil on smooth PEI. I've had good results and it's so much easier to clean than PVA glue. I'd still recommend a spring steel flex plate and I did notice some oil seems to effect the color of white filament so be mindful of that.
I was playing with PLA base layers for ASA on a modified Ender 2 years ago and it works brilliantly but you should still really have an enclosure to avoid other issues. These days it's mostly what I print and just use cheap enclosures with a smooth PEI sheets cleaned with a small dab of acetone on a microfiber cloth (do NOT squirt it on the bed). I don't recommend using IPA.
The bed has to be 105-110C though which despite what people often think, it is actually fine for most printers but be careful.
So acetone helps it stick?
@@vim55k Well it primarily strips and preps the surface, allowing the PEI sheet to stick as it should but I'm not entirely sure why it works so well. I'm suspicious that it also dissolves the residue from the prior prints onto the surface (like buffing a car with wax).
Just remember it can potentially damage PEI if you squirt a lot of it directly on the bed so always use it with a rag. I've done this with spring steel PEI beds for years and have had no issues.
Thank you so much. Had my very FIRST successful ASA print using PLA as the first layer on my P1S. Now just need a way to trick Bambu studio to use PLA as a raft for ASA prints.
I'm having the same issue with Bambu Studio not allowing a PLA raft. How did you successfully print a PLA first layer on the P1S? Does it not use Bambu Studio?
@@jaredarm I sliced my object as PLA then added a layer change at layer 2 to ASA in bambu studio. I've been experimenting with adding a disc primitive to the first layer too but you risk losing the first layer.
Sehr gute Idee. Das werde ich mal ausprobieren.
cool, I've got some stuff ready to test on the a1 to run as soon as it's free again. if this ends up being a reliable way to print pp, I'll be so happy as I can dump the dedicated pp printer and get something else for that spot.
I don't know about your country, but we have on the market a special crystal liquid for gluing prints to the bed. Any ABS plastic holds so that there are no detachments! The part itself stick off when the temperature of the bed drops below 50 degrees. I print on smooth glass. I put 2-3 drops on a cotton sponge, and rub it with the thinnest layer, so that even traces are not visible.
How is it called?
@@JanTecEngineering
It's not easy to explain. The fact is that I am from a country that does not have trade relations with Europe and the West. And such a product is unlikely to be found on your market. I know that this is a mixture of PVP and isopropyl with additives. Try to find by searching in the original language "клей 3D печать (glue 3D printing)", perhaps you will be shown several versions of this solution.
@@JanTecEngineering Chinese e-Sun made it
Make the first layer bigger (X, Y) than the part by using an offset. If you add a fillet in CAD around the bottom of the main part, (in base layer material), that might help as well.
a final table with all the experiments you did would have been useful. thx
But what is the font you're using on the PULL HERE label? It looks much better than the stencil fonts I use.
I'm trying your technique next time I print in ASA, thanks for the great video.
Woah, niceee. I would test my BBL mini with ASA. Thank you
Spray isopropyl alcohol onto TPU prints to make them just fall off the bed! It's magical, no glue or separators. The TPU sucks up the alcohol like a spong and pops off. (Also, PLA is premo support material for clean PETG undersides)
Neat! I got a Bambulab A1 as an early Christmas present with the AMS Lite, and I had the thought of getting an enclosed printer in the future (I still will), but I do still want to experiment with ASA, PA6-CF, and just carbon fiber, and I've been turned off by it due to lack of information, warping and needing a heating chamber and blah blah blah (Yes i know about the death fumes). Buuuuut now I really want to try out the PLA with ASA trick as it looked perfect! Please, if you can, make more videos about printing with these types of filaments on an open bed! I'm so close to just getting a roll of ASA and setting up my A1 in the garage and playing around for a day lol. Anyways you got a new subscriber :)
Thank you for this trick, Have you tried the adhesion between ASA and PETG?
This is 1 reason I am really want to get an ASM for my flash forge.
Very interesting info for ASA and open printers.
Thank you!
Hello. I am rather new to 3D printing. Why would you not use a raft layer for this, and selecting PLA as the support material?
I want to add another example in case anyone is looking for it:
I was not able to get PC/PTFE-filament to stick to any build surface. Workaround was to print it on top of an ABS layer. BUT it sticks too well. So the ABS will stay on the bottom surface of your part.
Great video, thank you. Been enjoying your content for a while, time to subscribe.
I probably won't get my XL until January, have you ever thought about PETG prints with TPU infill to see if it keeps it both rigid and strong?
Good idea, there are so many things to try out.
great video, looking forward t more of these.
Thanks! There will be more for sure.
bad person you are
people will wonder in later times, how we tolerated such evilness
@thenextlayer u are a terrorist
Hello Jan, Nice video. I was very interested in trying this with my Bambu Lab X1-E but when I slice it using PLA as the first layer and ABS after the Bambu Studio complains about the high temperature difference in between them, I think it can be bypass by creating a different material profile. Just in case, I'll try a bit more. Thanks
Have you tried to slow down the layers where the two materials interact?
so, can this method able to make materials other than PLA print on a cold bed?
This is truly an incredible video! The ASA I've been printing with sticks too well to PEI so I use glue stick but that's sometimes not enough adhesion and the shrinkage causes it to lift from the plate. Bambu Studio won't allow PLA to be used as a raft on an ASA print because the temperature difference between the two materials is too high... There must be a way to suppress that warning / error... Does anyone know how to do this in Bambu Studio?
eine der cleversten druck ideen seit langem!👍 jetzt muß ich erst recht eine entscheidung zwischen bambu und quidi treffen!😖
i get 0 warp with abs. i just put a cardboard box over the open printer ;) the shrink is unavoidable and should be corrected in your slicer. i use this trick for support interface with pla. its gamechanger if you have multimaterial patience
i found a "hack" for PP that actually works for enclosed "cardboard certified" rigs! its called PEX, 110-130c and you MUST wait for the pex to cool off to at least 45c. and if it still sticks DO NOT PRY OR PULL!! just put it under running water. (i learned this the hard way.. cant print in the centre of that plate anymore) 🤭
you dont have to cut the model though. u can just use a modifier box and choose the material for that box by right clicking it and select change filament type :) easy to get that misaligned if you want like chamfer the bottom. plus u can do this for any section of any model with like 2 minutes of my speed of fidding 😇
the bonding in the purgetower is from the elevated flowrate set for the purgetower. check gcode to see it. lower it to the printing speed and you are gucci for not making those blobs or faults.
What about materials like nylon?
Cheers!
I’m going to be honest…. I may have clipped a section of your video with you saying PP a few times. My childish brain couldn’t help it. Also great video 😂 🙌🏻
In prusa material guide they say print TPU (flex materials) on PEI/satin with a glue stick. For textured sheet they say nothing is needed becouse it sticks well.
I haven't ever used any TPU, it is really that hard to print with?
I'm still missing some information. Does this ASA part print just as well without the PLA base? does the PLA base have better "bed adhesion" that the build plate even though it peels off?
The PLA base sticks to the bed better than ASA so it stops it from lifting at the edges.
@@oldman1944 But does ASA stick better to PLA than to a PEI plate? It seemed to come right off.
PETG can be a good support material for PP indeed...
Would be interesting if Orca Slicer implement this.
Fabulous method. 3:23 in and I have to say, instead of worrying about peeling it off, leave it on. Ok, that’s considering whatever the part is going to be used for but, if it can be included I’d choose to leave it. Great stuff, thanks!
Yeah, in some cases it could even improve the appearance of the part.
Very interesting. I've started printing PP and with Magigoo and a trick of printing the first layer with a very hot bed and then letter the bed cool before continuing, it sticks pretty well. My turning the aux cooling fan off and part cooling fan to low, warpage is limited. PP-CF is magic with almost no warping and good adhesion with Magigoo. What temperature did you maintain your bed at for the PETG-PP combination? Did you try keeping it on the hot side, above 70 or 80C?
Pleased Experiment with TPU and PP an Pearl of solution for TPU might save many Print Beds.
Have you tried printing TPU an a PEI sheet with NO bed heating? Works for me every time (even with sure 70A TPE).
Was du brauchst, für TPU ASA ABS HP usw ist eine Behausung mit Druckraumheizung! Würde außerdem eher glatte Oberflächen nehmen wie GFK Platten oder Glas. Klingt absurd, aber die Welt der Filamente mit hohen Temperaturen ist halt eine andere als die von PETG und PLA. Btw. Ich druck lieber mit ABS und ASA als mit den PLA oder Petg. Das Petg ist Teilwiese eine ziemliche sauerrei, wenn man die Drucker einstellt :D
What you need for TPU ASA ABS HP etc. is a housing with pressure chamber heating! I would also use smooth surfaces such as GRP sheets or glass. Sounds absurd, but the world of filaments with high temperatures is just a different one than that of PETG and PLA. Btw. I prefer to print with ABS and ASA than with PLA or Petg. The Petg is sometimes a bit of a pain when you adjust the printers :D
This is so cool, love the technique. Do you plan to expand the test to other materials? I would love to see if this can work with PC blend filaments. It’ll be wild if this can unlock super strong parts on mass market printers.
On my XL I love to print parts with organic support. Is it possible to start with this support at the end height (e.g. 3 layers) of the PLA when I want to use ASA for the final part? Thank you very much for your superb work! Mein Abo hast du…
Great video but how to do this in Cura
is there any way to use this for POM (acetal)
These are relatively non-problematic filaments with deent adhesion and not that big issue with warping. Wpuld be more interested in more problematic filaments like PC or PA given PC's warping and PA's adhesiion issues. Before Prusa's PC I had tonnes of issues printing PC and I did use layers of PETG for adhesion even for smaller parts but usually i didn'nt bother making them peel off as single or two layers sidn't really affect the parts i was printing.
is the advertising label from the top right supposed to be there the whole video? :p
I wish someone comes up with a patch that allows printing bottom n layers with this cut trick with vase mode. I want to put my printer to print multiple vase objects after each other and have the first 1-2 layers printed with PLA and then the actual vase from ABS. Currently it is impossible, I tried it by manually editing G-code and it was really frustrating and I think I got something out of it, but the ABS vase warped like crazy so it went to thrash and I didn't want to try again with a different design because the setup was so tedious.
What I am looking for is how can I print nanovia's PC-PTFE low friction filament. It sounds really good but I can't for the life of me even calibrate my Bamboo to print it.
In my opinions two of the accessible yet annoying materials that could benefit from this are nylon and PC, it would be cool to see what works with these two
I am new to 3D but what if you made the PLA one path small or if needed a few more paths small this may not always, but it is just an idea because I know you put a lot of work into your videos thumbs up!
so it's basically a thin PLA raft?