Being cognitively deep and sensitive creates all kinds of problems, especially betrayal etc.. That is why I think we can be dangerous. Plus we have the ability to seek clever revenge.
Disappointment happen when we have expectations. However we need a minimum of expectations such as the respect or reliability for example. Ni keep the best information & discard the others. We do the same with people, we keep the best. If someone doesn't enter, or deviate too much of our Ni pattern of what should be a good & trustful person, we discard them quite simply. Maybe, we don't communicate our disappointment : _because we expect people to think & learn by themselves like we do, to see themselves their bad behavior. _we know by experience, by advance that most of people will not listen to us and not understand us, so what the point to spend time & energy if we already know that it will fail. Useless to resonate people who are not open to listen. I am passive/agressive too. Almost all the time passive, hoping that people take conscious of what they did or said, introspect, and change/correct their behavior by themselves. Maybe we should probably say it to them directly, in order to them to understand and improve themselves. Good point you mention the adjustment. Great video, I always like to listen about Ni functioning.
There are some excellent ideas here that I am trying to write down: “a web of beliefs that is completely interlinked”….”in order for the whole to be survived as a coherent set”…”The disappointment is experienced as a kind of self existential threat.” This concept is so true, as in my case as it pertains to being disappointed by a friend. This is indeed how my mind works, though I would never have thought to explain it this way. Your mapping of this process is quite helpful in my understanding.
Hi Ren. First of all wishing good holidays. As an ENFP I found that few of INFJ's "hide" behind their type, while there are other things in play here like mental issue's. I can't stand it anymore the "run away" tactics and tired to hear all appologies and promises over and over again. Why do some do that?
We can often see why people misunderstand us, but it still hurts, edpowhen we see how they respond. That can tell us a lot about their character. When it has happened to me, sometimes I don’t even try to resolve the misunderstanding because the character this revealed, often already suspected by myself prior to the issue/event, means I’m not bothered and I also like to think their talking to others about their stupid judgement will backfire on them. But really at that point I don’t care much. Stupid and bad can’t be helped.
People love to talk, and usually tell on themselves. I’m so grateful to have another INFJ that understands me and same for me for her. Misunderstandings lead to poor perceptions.
It is just painful when you try to shapeshift to make people happy but find they don't reciprocate. I left my family for 2 years when I felt my care and sacrifices were not valued. But, they regret it and they have improved. I think INFJ just needs to communicate this, make them understand, coz my family's treatment improved when I articulated my feelings. Those 2 years wasted when it would have been solvable. My sister now knows my boundaries. And my mom realized it, too.
Merry Christmas, Ren. I'm an INFJ. Thank you for this gentle reminder to manage our expectations better. I tend to see the potential in people and situations, and when reality falls short, I get disappointed. But isn't demoting people just another way of setting boundaries?
BTW, you are onto some great stuff here re 'disappointment'. I've noticed that I am unable to remain friends with an offending friend even if I want to.. It's like my mind took over and 'reclassified' them. So, brilliant Ren. Thanks!
Hi Ren. Happy Christmas. Mince Pies and Warm Cocoa !! I've spent the better part of this year, parsing the past twenty years in recovery. And I wonder why I hung around that lot as long as I did, after years of disrespect, disappointment, and being ignored, when everyone preached love and altruism. Each and every time someone shot their mouth off, I would just quietly walk away, and say nothing. I would change the groups I attended, hoping seeing something new would make it better. But news travels in a closed society, rather quickly. And every time I quietly reacted to a douche bag, everyone would look at me askance. As if I was the one who erred. After twenty years of this, I had had enough, and in the room where it all began, in front of all the people who were there when it all began, I spoke. I spoke once, and only once. I told them how disappointed I was in all of them. I called out to the whole room "I dub thee DOUCHE BAGS!!" I took my twenty year chip, grabbed my ruck sack and left. I don't just get mad, I get ICE COLD MAD. I am well versed in Icing People out of my life, without a word. This really screwed up my life for about a year afterwards. I had to recalibrate my entire existence after this episode. Then I came to the INFJ typing MBTI, then found you. People always saw me at the VULCAN who felt and said nothing. So they all took advantage of me, AND I allowed it because in recovery, one has to WORK to stay sober, was pounded into my head. But two years of pandemic and not one phone call, really did me in mentally and emotionally and began the slow burn to twenty years and my eventual Banishment of an entire fellowship of people. They say Sigma's are made and not born, well, I can attest to that !! Thanks for the topic.
Generally correct. I reserve the doorslam for betrayal. If I cannot trust the person, I won't deal with them. For other disrespect or abuse, there are various levels of withdrawal. Growing up as an INFJ, I had to deal with disrespect from others, especially the bullies, and as a child, I might get into a fight when I was a kid, or an argument, but I let it go pretty quickly.
It's true that is our tendency, but only after much trying to understand them or sometimes, even trying to talk about it in some subtle or even obvious way. Revenge is just so pointless. Thanks, Ren. Sounds like you have a cold (?). Take care.😊
That's right - we are despicable, door slamming, impossible to appease monsters! What we do is move someone from 'trusted' to 'untrusted'; it can vary in severity based on how large a betrayal of trust we feel that person committed against us. Holistic would be a correct appraisal in my opinion. We need to completely update & re-integrate our entire internal logic when such a fundamental 'truth' that is applied in multiple situations is found to be inaccurate or false. Ni gives us speed, allows for intuitive 'shortcuts' instead of the slow, multiple individualized solutions as in a Sensors. One line of code does it all, instead of their hundreds. We just change a variable or add an extra line. When that code is proven to be unsafe & dangerous then we go to a 'red alert' status, cut off the offending source, and go through a careful re-evaluation of that code to re-write it and make sure we don't have that happen again.
Yea we have an overall framework which we rely and on and have to fit everything into. Any change at the fundamental level can cause significant stress as we question our framework.
Lovely analysis as always Renaud. I do think this “web of consciousness” is directly related to Ti, especially if you consider its parallel to Harry’s conception at CPT of ni-ti. You mentioned this also in the video, that a lot of the exiling of the offensive party is done subconsciously on the part of the infj- which may indicate that because Ni scope of mind is so wide, yet such low fidelity, the Infj is not always aware of what exactly the cognitive dissonance is, but the *unconscious* rejects that piece of information as a coping mechanism- which in this case would be an acceptance of the offensive party into the inner circle. Also, I believe Ni projection for INFJs is what idealizes people- it sees their future potential, and when there’s a disconnect from that projection and the real world, after fe forgives transgressions so many times, it stops idealizing, and rejects reality to a certain extent to protect the Ni. Thank you for this video Renaud you always give me new cognitive function perspectives to contemplate🙏🏻🙏🏻
Like the vid, however there is an annoying 'knocking' sound that persists throughout it. That is less than enjoyable Ren. Cheers and Happy holidays to you and your😀😀
Yes I am aware, sorry about that :-/ Will make sure it won't happen again. Still not sure what happened to be honest. Anyway, thanks for your positive feedback nonetheless, friend! Happy holidays to you : )
Being cognitively deep and sensitive creates all kinds of problems, especially betrayal etc.. That is why I think we can be dangerous. Plus we have the ability to seek clever revenge.
Disappointment happen when we have expectations. However we need a minimum of expectations such as the respect or reliability for example.
Ni keep the best information & discard the others. We do the same with people, we keep the best.
If someone doesn't enter, or deviate too much of our Ni pattern of what should be a good & trustful person, we discard them quite simply.
Maybe, we don't communicate our disappointment :
_because we expect people to think & learn by themselves like we do, to see themselves their bad behavior.
_we know by experience, by advance that most of people will not listen to us and not understand us, so what the point to spend time & energy if we already know that it will fail. Useless to resonate people who are not open to listen.
I am passive/agressive too. Almost all the time passive, hoping that people take conscious of what they did or said, introspect, and change/correct their behavior by themselves. Maybe we should probably say it to them directly, in order to them to understand and improve themselves.
Good point you mention the adjustment.
Great video, I always like to listen about Ni functioning.
I regretted every door slam. It makes me doubt my INFJness. I still have internal door slams, but only I know it.
There are some excellent ideas here that I am trying to write down: “a web of beliefs that is completely interlinked”….”in order for the whole to be survived as a coherent set”…”The disappointment is experienced as a kind of self existential threat.” This concept is so true, as in my case as it pertains to being disappointed by a friend. This is indeed how my mind works, though I would never have thought to explain it this way. Your mapping of this process is quite helpful in my understanding.
Hi Ren. First of all wishing good holidays. As an ENFP I found that few of INFJ's "hide" behind their type, while there are other things in play here like mental issue's. I can't stand it anymore the "run away" tactics and tired to hear all appologies and promises over and over again. Why do some do that?
We can often see why people misunderstand us, but it still hurts, edpowhen we see how they respond. That can tell us a lot about their character. When it has happened to me, sometimes I don’t even try to resolve the misunderstanding because the character this revealed, often already suspected by myself prior to the issue/event, means I’m not bothered and I also like to think their talking to others about their stupid judgement will backfire on them. But really at that point I don’t care much. Stupid and bad can’t be helped.
People love to talk, and usually
tell on themselves. I’m so grateful to have another INFJ that understands me and same for me for her. Misunderstandings lead to poor perceptions.
It is just painful when you try to shapeshift to make people happy but find they don't reciprocate. I left my family for 2 years when I felt my care and sacrifices were not valued. But, they regret it and they have improved. I think INFJ just needs to communicate this, make them understand, coz my family's treatment improved when I articulated my feelings. Those 2 years wasted when it would have been solvable. My sister now knows my boundaries. And my mom realized it, too.
Merry Christmas, Ren. I'm an INFJ. Thank you for this gentle reminder to manage our expectations better. I tend to see the potential in people and situations, and when reality falls short, I get disappointed. But isn't demoting people just another way of setting boundaries?
Haha you're talking to me, much love Dani 😉🙏❤️✌️
BTW, you are onto some great stuff here re 'disappointment'. I've noticed that I am unable to remain friends with an offending friend even if I want to.. It's like my mind took over and 'reclassified' them. So, brilliant Ren. Thanks!
Hi Ren. Happy Christmas. Mince Pies and Warm Cocoa !! I've spent the better part of this year, parsing the past twenty years in recovery. And I wonder why I hung around that lot as long as I did, after years of disrespect, disappointment, and being ignored, when everyone preached love and altruism. Each and every time someone shot their mouth off, I would just quietly walk away, and say nothing. I would change the groups I attended, hoping seeing something new would make it better. But news travels in a closed society, rather quickly. And every time I quietly reacted to a douche bag, everyone would look at me askance. As if I was the one who erred. After twenty years of this, I had had enough, and in the room where it all began, in front of all the people who were there when it all began, I spoke. I spoke once, and only once. I told them how disappointed I was in all of them. I called out to the whole room "I dub thee DOUCHE BAGS!!" I took my twenty year chip, grabbed my ruck sack and left. I don't just get mad, I get ICE COLD MAD. I am well versed in Icing People out of my life, without a word. This really screwed up my life for about a year afterwards. I had to recalibrate my entire existence after this episode. Then I came to the INFJ typing MBTI, then found you. People always saw me at the VULCAN who felt and said nothing. So they all took advantage of me, AND I allowed it because in recovery, one has to WORK to stay sober, was pounded into my head. But two years of pandemic and not one phone call, really did me in mentally and emotionally and began the slow burn to twenty years and my eventual Banishment of an entire fellowship of people. They say Sigma's are made and not born, well, I can attest to that !! Thanks for the topic.
Dude that was spot on. Nice analysis 👍🏾
Generally correct. I reserve the doorslam for betrayal. If I cannot trust the person, I won't deal with them. For other disrespect or abuse, there are various levels of withdrawal. Growing up as an INFJ, I had to deal with disrespect from others, especially the bullies, and as a child, I might get into a fight when I was a kid, or an argument, but I let it go pretty quickly.
There’s some rattling noise on the video at regular intervals.
This is an encrypted message in Morse code from the unconscious (I joke, or maybe it really is?)
It's true that is our tendency, but only after much trying to understand them or sometimes, even trying to talk about it in some subtle or even obvious way. Revenge is just so pointless. Thanks, Ren. Sounds like you have a cold (?). Take care.😊
@@ElodieN_INTJ_Typology_InsightsYou cracked me up with that.😂
Haha!
Yes sorry about that, will make sure it doesn't happen again.
That's right - we are despicable, door slamming, impossible to appease monsters! What we do is move someone from 'trusted' to 'untrusted'; it can vary in severity based on how large a betrayal of trust we feel that person committed against us. Holistic would be a correct appraisal in my opinion. We need to completely update & re-integrate our entire internal logic when such a fundamental 'truth' that is applied in multiple situations is found to be inaccurate or false. Ni gives us speed, allows for intuitive 'shortcuts' instead of the slow, multiple individualized solutions as in a Sensors. One line of code does it all, instead of their hundreds. We just change a variable or add an extra line. When that code is proven to be unsafe & dangerous then we go to a 'red alert' status, cut off the offending source, and go through a careful re-evaluation of that code to re-write it and make sure we don't have that happen again.
Yea we have an overall framework which we rely and on and have to fit everything into. Any change at the fundamental level can cause significant stress as we question our framework.
True.
Love this analysis, I relate deeply to all you've said. I'm reading your book now. Thanks for all that you do for us INFJ's!
You are welcome! And hope you enjoy the book : )
Beautifully said.
Thanks friend!
Lovely analysis as always Renaud. I do think this “web of consciousness” is directly related to Ti, especially if you consider its parallel to Harry’s conception at CPT of ni-ti.
You mentioned this also in the video, that a lot of the exiling of the offensive party is done subconsciously on the part of the infj- which may indicate that because Ni scope of mind is so wide, yet such low fidelity, the Infj is not always aware of what exactly the cognitive dissonance is, but the *unconscious* rejects that piece of information as a coping mechanism- which in this case would be an acceptance of the offensive party into the inner circle.
Also, I believe Ni projection for INFJs is what idealizes people- it sees their future potential, and when there’s a disconnect from that projection and the real world, after fe forgives transgressions so many times, it stops idealizing, and rejects reality to a certain extent to protect the Ni.
Thank you for this video Renaud you always give me new cognitive function perspectives to contemplate🙏🏻🙏🏻
Like the vid, however there is an annoying 'knocking' sound that persists throughout it. That is less than enjoyable Ren. Cheers and Happy holidays to you and your😀😀
Yes I am aware, sorry about that :-/ Will make sure it won't happen again. Still not sure what happened to be honest. Anyway, thanks for your positive feedback nonetheless, friend! Happy holidays to you : )