Of course. It's a sore spot for us Spurs fans. Much like how Dallas does not like to talk about the 07 GSW and 06 Miami Heat. But 4 championships is pretty sweet
Dirk scored in the high post(from the elbow) pretty routinely throughout his career. But he didn't implement the left legged fade until like 2008/09. And it wasn't perfected until 2011. So his post game has evolved. and isn't traditional, but it's still considered post play.
I remember watching the entire series, still one of the best I've ever seen. From Devin Harris exploding on the Spurs, to Game 7 OT, it was great from start to finish. Too bad the NBA Finals that year didn't go as well as I would've liked..
This was a great series. The only other series touching this in this rivalry is the '10 series. All of them, including the drubbings in '01 and '09, were great/fun/entertaining series to watch.
After reading JA Adande's stupid article about the lack of real rivalries in the NBA, this video just reaffirms my position. The battles the Spurs-Mavs had in the 2000's were so contentious. From Mark Cuban's smack talk, to the JET hitting Finley below the belt, to Dampier threatening to take out Parker, there were so many rivalry type moments between the two teams. All 4 of their playoff series had some level of contentiousness. Rivalries are real in today's NBA!
The Spurs adore Manu for his hyper-aggressiveness and never give up attitude. But for every big 3 that Manu's uber-aggressive style yielded like at 9:20, there was always the caveat like at 9:52 where he makes an inexplicable foul that ends up costing us the game. Six years later, Manu's play style has yielded more dividends than deficits; however, this game was heart-breaking for all Spurs fans.
I miss these rivalries. Spurs and Mavs were always top teams. Now the NBA has changed, everyone is trying to team up and take the easy way. Rivalries like these don't exist. I respect Dirk for ALWAYS being with the MAVERICKS thru the good and bad times, the Championship he brought home in 2011 means a lot. I also respect Duncan (Future Hall of Famer) Nothing will ever beat these TEXAS RIVALRIES.
Also,there are a lot of great rivalries in the NBA today: 1)Miami vs Boston 2)OKC vs San Antonio 3)Miami vs NYK 4)LAC vs Memphis 5)Indiana vs Miami 6)San Antonio vs L.A. 7)LAC vs L.A. There's just a couple more other than those,but there are more than 3/4 rivalries in the NBA.
playoff leader in total defensive rebound in NBA history, number 2 in offensive rebound in NBA playoffs history, number one in win shares in defensive rating in NBA finals history, the only player to average 25.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 17 rpg, 5.3 bpg (the 25-15-5-5) in an NBA finals (2003), etc.
i havent seen is on utube, its on nba t.v archives. Like i watched the road to victory where hakeem won his second ring and they had shaqs comments about hakeem after being swept. Shaq was saying hakeem is the greatest player hes ever played against. When tim came to the spurs david said he be the high low guy giving duncan more touches. They show david helping tim alot on his low post game too. Its a fun watch
From Wiki about his defence: Some critics have alleged Nowitzki's defense is a weakness, as he averages just over one block per game and never made an All-Defense Team. However, playing more around the perimeter takes him out of position where a typical power forward would be detracts from his overall defensive stats. ...he is ranked 8th in active players for defensive win shares, placing him higher than Kobe Bryant, who has made the All-Defensive team 11 times.
I would agree. I just think Dirk is a slightly tougher cover because of his hybrid status and ability to juke pretty much all other 4's. Remember, Pop had to go small in the 2006 series and play Horry and Tim instead of his usual twin tower lineupof Rasho or Nazr. And back then, that is something that Pop never did. That's the kind of stuff im talking about. Dirk's hybrid status causes major headaches and causes coaches to change their entire game plan.
Avery Johnson inserting Diop late in this game to give The Big Fundamental a different look was critical to allowing Dallas to pull ahead in OT. It also set Diop up for a pretty bog payday he never lived up to.
For any lurkers who just started reading these comments on here, let me make my position very clear. Tim Duncan is the greatest PF to ever lace them up. He was so good that he could have a off game by scoring only 10 points, but still dominate by getting 19 rebounds and 5 blocks. That is what separates himself from the rest of the pack. Dirk is a great offensive player with a arsenal that surpasses Tim's, making him the better player on that side of the floor.
I wouldn't say Duncan is overrated. In fact, he's one of the most underrated superstars of this era alongside Dirk. Duncan was just blessed to have teammates like David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and a deep bench year in and year out and above all, an all-time great coach Gregg Popovich. All of those combined made Duncan look like the hall-of-fame top 5 PF of all-time. On the other hand, Dirk has never had that much luxury year in and year out.
***** And if Duncan did not foul out with Dirk stepping on his foot in one of those OT games they win! If Finley did not get a tech taken away later on by the league in which they lost the game in OT they win by a POINT! Don't start on calls that series or what ifs, the Mavs got some favorable calls all series that made a different. TNT crew after the game, especially Charles in game 4, NBA REFS SUCK. I remember it.
Dirk's handles, quickness(for a 4 anyway) and size are what make Dirk special. It gives him the ability to do what other big men are incapable of(including Duncan) Year in and year out I see guys have great years with Dallas playing next to Dirk. Then they leave and their FG falls off the face of the earth. Go compare JJ Barea and Caron Butler's FG% from last year to 2011 in Dallas. It's significant and clear evidence of what you deny...that Dirk makes those around him better!
Dirk's 48 against OKC was incredibly impressive because he destroyed any defender OKC sent, and they sent damn near their whole team to guard him at one point or another. But Duncan is still very clearly better, IMO. He was dominant from Day 1 and can anchor a team defensively, something Dirk could never do. He's reliable on offense, a devastating rim protector and post defender on defense, a great passer, and has nerves of steel. Best PF ever. Even better than KG, my favorite PF.
PF battle for the ages. Only separating factor between these two is that Dirk is a Hall of Famer, Duncan is the best PF of all time and should be considered a top 5 player ever if he can win his 5th title at age 37. I hate the mavs but Dirk is something else. There might never again be a 7 footer who plays the game like he does. Enjoy these two while you can, retirement is looming for both
You're right about teammates being a factor. That's why I said even if you took championships out of the equation Duncan was still the more dominant player. The year Dirk won MVP (2006-07) he had the best team in the league record wise but choked in the 1st round against the Golden State Warriors. You think Duncan would've been intimidated by 6'8" defenders? No way.
What the hell are you saying, man? Tony Parker was a 28th pick and Manu was 57th pick. The reason why they've become what they are right now was because Tim was being double team down the post, thus giving them room to penetrate and shoot ( watch the video). Also, Robinson was averaging 7.8 points per game in 2003 playoffs and 1999, Robinson was averaging 15.6 points per game, he was old. Basically, he was a role player back then.
"You don't judge players on rings" I strongly disagree. The ultimate goal in any sport is to win games and championships. If you're not playing for that then there's really no reason to compete. Things like individual production, consistency and MVP's also have their place but you have to win. "You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards
You are correct, and i said as much earlier. My premise is that Dirk is the better and more impactful offensive player. But overall, with Duncan's great D and O, he is the better PF...in fact, TD is the GOAT pf...
Duncan is no slouch, he was great. But with Dirk you are talking about a dominant 7 footer with guard skills. This is something the NBA has never seen before, and may never see again.
Jason Terry? He played with Steve Nash and Michael Finley in the prime of their careers. He also played with Juwan Howard in his prime as well. Caron Butler and Tyson Chandler were no scrubs, either. And all of those guys were All-Stars at some point. So it wasn't like Dirk was totally alone.
I never said Duncan was better simply based on rings. I said he had a better resume and more rings so there's no argument for Dirk in my opinion. "You judge a PLAYER on personal achievements." Duncan's personal achievements (his resume) are greater than Dirk's. He's also outplayed him head-to-head. There is no argument for Nowitzki.
This is just a fine example of a heated rivalry and determination to reach the finals. The spurs were number 1 but the hunger for the mavs to make a run was greater. Had the heat not gotten help from the refs, mavs would have had a ring then but I doubt they would have faced off with the big 3 in 2011 and shocked everyone. Spurs would have 7 ring had they won.
I enjoy watching great scoring performances where a player gets hot from the field. Having twice as free throws as field goal attempts isn't that exciting in my opinion. It's incredible that Dirk was able to make all 24 free throws though.
Yeah, people don't understand that the best defense is played as a team not as an individual. Look at the Mavericks back in 2011, the only legitimate defenders they had were Marion and Chandler yet they were able to contain every team they faced. While on offense, no matter how good Duncan and KG are on defending, they can't stop Dirk.
Being a bigger threat to a team's defense does more damage than beating someone 1 on 1. I'm really confused as to why Dirk fans who have posted under this video always neglect the playmaking abilities of both players. Duncan is the better passer because of his superior court vision, not because he plays in the post. During the 2003 postseason he averaged over 5 assists & is 1 of only 4 or 5 big men (Wilt, Kareem, Walton and I believe Russell) to average over 5 assists in the Finals.
I don't need to do research. I saw the entire series. Nellie knew that Dirk didn't like contact and would settle for jumpers if you got a little physical with him (at the time) which is why Stephen Jackson was his primary defender. That's no excuse for Dirk's play in the series though. He was the MVP and had the best team in the league. He should've dominated those "midgets" (as Barkley called them). Instead he let guys like Jackson, Barnes & Harrington bully him into shooting 38% for the series
Where was Dirk's superior post game against the Warriors in 2007? You remember that year right? Dirk won the MVP and was intimidated by players who were 4 inches shorter and at least 20 pounds lighter. Charles Barkley kept saying that he was playing soft and needed to "punish those midgets" but Dirk kept shooting jumpers.
I'm a die hard fan, but I'm also a realist. Duncan is better, plain and simple. But if I had to pick between him and dirk id choose dirk every single time. I don't care what Duncan brings to the table. I grew up watching Dirk. That's my guy.
You can't take away one incident (Ginobili foul) and expect everything else to remain exactly the same. If the Spurs win in '06, no one knows if they win in '07.I think that loss in '06 gave them some kind of new hunger which surely helped their chances of taking '07. It's similar with the Mavs. I'd say they don't win '11 w/o the loss in '06 against the Heat because they had that "with a vengeance" approach last year which is necessary.
Defense is played as a team. While offense is mostly ran on isolations to draw double teams to get someone open. Dirk can drop 30 on Duncan and KG anytime he wants regardless on how good they are defensively. I'm talking about Dirk's effectiveness on a team game not on a One on One game.
Even if you take championships out of the equation, Duncan was the more dominant player in his prime. He was more well rounded offensively than Dirk and was a superior defender by a wide margin making a total of 13 All-Defensive Teams (8 of them being on the first team). If you compare their resumes it's clear who the better player is. Dirk is great but let's not go crazy.
I'm a Mavs fan and here is my list of greatest 4's: 1.) Duncan 2.) Malone 3.) Dirk 4.) KG 5.) McHale I only rank guys I have actually seen play. You could argue that KG is 3rd since he was better defensively. But since he was in the lottery in Minnesota and Dirk has pretty much owned KG in their careers, that argument can be countered.
Being efficient is one of the best ways to win. Sure he has 5 rings. 3 of them were predominantly because of Shaq's monster efficiency. Kobe's been shooting under 45% as of late and look where that got him. Even back in '09 and '10 he shot 6/24 in the field only to get bailed out by his bigs like Gasol and Bynum and of course don't forget the refs.
I don't care ! Dirk did something most players can't do, put the whole team on their back , winning it all when no one believed them, Dirk is a beast and a Champion! Duncan is too, but Dirks Championship was so special and fun to watch!
The 2003 Spurs team was comparable to the 2011 title team. Manu and Tony were not Manu and Tony yet. Tim was a BOSS on both sides of the floor, but especially defensively. Just want to make sure you are understanding my point. Tim is the better over player, but I feel that Dirk has a slight edge offensively because of his hybrid status, size and the overall ability he has to make those around him perform better. Of course defensively, it isn't even close. TD blows him & most others away.
I'm not disputing Dirk's dominance in the 2011 postseason. He was incredible and deserves to be a champion. The argument comes when you try to vault him over someone who's widely regarded as the best PF in history. Duncan's resume is better, his head-to-head stats against Dirk are better and he's more well rounded. You brought up scoring as your argument for Dirk but what about the rest of his game? Duncan is a better rebounder, passer and defender.
Your definition differs from mine. IMO, "post play" is when a player(usually with his back to the basket) is attempting to score over his defender within a 15 foot radius of the cup. I can score from the FT line and if my foot touches the paint, it is considered PIP. So why should it make a difference if I do it from the baseline? And why should it make a difference if my fade hits the same percentage as a TD jump hook under the hoop? Technically It's post play because u need to post to do this
Early in his career Duncan pushed the ball up court when needed. And my point with Duncan is that his passing spread out the floor in the halfcourt. Dirk is a blackhole in the offensive set. He's always looking for his shot first be it in traffic or not. When the spurs play you always see them look for the BEST shot getting it to the open man. Popovich said in an SI article "The offense runs thru Duncan, we surround him with guys who have a "skill" (shooting, defense, rebnding) but arent stars.
You do have a point about Duncan's supporting cast being better over the course of his career though. If you look at the 2003 Spurs that had a young Parker and Ginobili (who hadn't come into their own yet) and a cast of old players (Robinson, Smith, Kerr, Willis & Ferry), I'd argue Duncan has done more with less. Tim led the Spurs in assists with an average of 5.3 apg in the postseason and had a near quadruple-double in Game 6 of the Finals. Sorry, I just can't see a legit argument for Dirk.
Dirk's 48 against OKC wasn't that impressive when you consider that half of those points came from the free throw line. He's a better scorer I'll give you that but Duncan is better in almost every other category and was considered superior when both players were in their primes. Duncan's MVP's, defensive dominance and clutch performances put him ahead.
Why is everyone so quick to point out Dirk's shortcomings? What about Duncan's? He's also on that short of list of guys who lost to an 8th seed. 6x his team lost in the postseason when they had HCA. 43% shooting the 2008 WCFs, when his team really could have used the offense? Why doesn't any of this stuff ever come back to haunt Timmy? Yes, he has four rings, but he shouldn't get a pass for everything.
And yet you ignored everything else I said. It's a fact back then when he was young but now he's barely a threat. It was a fact the first half of Duncan's career. But Dirk has been burning teams on isolations and double teams ever since 2000 till now.
This argument is really pointless though because the general consensus is that Duncan was more dominant. Prior to last year Dirk was known as a choke artist in the postseason and no one had him as a Top 5 PF, let alone the best PF ever (which Duncan is). Dirk is the better scorer and does have the advantage in longevity but to me prime is more important. What did you do from an invididual and team standpoint at your very best?
Irrational would be saying Dirk is a better passer than Duncan. I already gave Dirk credit for being a better scorer. But if you think Dirk is a better overall player than i'm afraid you're being unrealistic. Ask any one who watches basketball out there and they'll tell you Duncan is an All-time PF. I give Dirk all the credit for getting hot and having a legendary playoff last in 2011. Took his game to another level. But if you think he's played at that level his whole career, youre crazy
Are you kidding? If you're talking about RIGHT NOW than ok, but you do understand that Tim Duncan is possibly THE BEST PF of ALL TIME. 2-time MVP, 4 championships, 3 time Finals MVP, 13 All-NBA teams, 13 All-Defensive teams. Most fundamentally sound player ever to play, one of the smartest & most respected players of all time. NEVER failed to perform in the playoffs. Mavs, lost in 2006 finals to a worse Heat team, lost to 8th seed Warriors in 2007 while in Dirk's prime. Dirk better? Please.
Duncan is in contention the best defensive player of all time. Even at age 37 he looked better than Marc Gasol on defense(although the way the two play defense is different). Dirk is a better offensive player but that's about it.
I hated Dirk,back in his prime.I hated him even more so when we faced him in the 2006 Finals,I know that we had help with the refs,but at the same time,I was happy we shut up the media about Dirk being the new Hero of the NBA.When he&Dallas beat us in a revenge rematch in '11........Dirk earned my respect...and I stopped hating the guy,although we lost,he showed me he really wanted the title,and he worked hard for it.Dirk's a 1st ballad hall of famer,and was a very underrated defender as well.
Let me make this clear to everyone. Tim Duncan had the luxury to play with bonified stars and hall-of-famers his entire career. Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, David Robinson, Gregg Popovic, etc. Hence him having multiple rings. But to say that Dirk is not at the same level if not better because of that lone reason is plain ridiculous. Dirk's offensive game is so good that it can impact a game more than Duncan's offense and defense combined. You know it's true.
The 3 things Spurs fans don't talk about:
2004 (Derek Fisher 0.4 shot)
2006 (Dirk Nowitzki 3 point play)
2013 (Ray Allen 3 pointer)
add vince carter's 3 point (2014)
Let's not forget the sweep by Suns and the 8th seeded Grizzles beating them.
Of course. It's a sore spot for us Spurs fans. Much like how Dallas does not like to talk about the 07 GSW and 06 Miami Heat. But 4 championships is pretty sweet
And Miami beating spurs in game 7,at least mavs got there rematch in 2010-2011 4-2 and won,spurs haven't got there won against Miami yet
samuel herrera 4 championships is still sweeter than 1 championship that Mavs got in a rematch
Vintage Duncan and Dirk, gotta love it!
Dirk scored in the high post(from the elbow) pretty routinely throughout his career.
But he didn't implement the left legged fade until like 2008/09. And it wasn't perfected until 2011.
So his post game has evolved. and isn't traditional, but it's still considered post play.
Dirk never played with Kobe. But... I love how Dirk and Duncan go insane against each other when it's post season. Dirk is the man no matter what.
Dirk and Kobe would have to be vetoed that would be too op
What a game!,thanks for sharing.
I will never forget that "and 1" by dirk to tie the game at 09:50. its been 6 years and Its still fresh in my mind. Hell of a series!
Best series of the 00s that I remember. The 76ers Raptors 2001 matchup was something too but this one was the best.
Naw, 2002 WCF and 2005 NBA finals were better.
I remember watching the entire series, still one of the best I've ever seen. From Devin Harris exploding on the Spurs, to Game 7 OT, it was great from start to finish. Too bad the NBA Finals that year didn't go as well as I would've liked..
The debate wasn't about who's had more help. We were discussing who the better individual player was.
This was a great series. The only other series touching this in this rivalry is the '10 series. All of them, including the drubbings in '01 and '09, were great/fun/entertaining series to watch.
What a great match-up. I miss these days when these two would go head to head like that. I just wish the Spurs could have pulled through. :(
Noticed that too Naranja, ah the sweet bird of youth. Dirk's adjusted over the past few seasons though by adding the 1-legged fadeaway to his arsenal.
this was a great series.
Dallas survived because they shot an epic % in the first half to build the lead. and then they persevered in the end
Thanks for reminding me. How could I forget about The Dream?
After reading JA Adande's stupid article about the lack of real rivalries in the NBA, this video just reaffirms my position. The battles the Spurs-Mavs had in the 2000's were so contentious. From Mark Cuban's smack talk, to the JET hitting Finley below the belt, to Dampier threatening to take out Parker, there were so many rivalry type moments between the two teams. All 4 of their playoff series had some level of contentiousness. Rivalries are real in today's NBA!
Spurs-Mavericks rivalry at its finest. Brings back memories. GoSpursGo!
I agree with you fully as a SPURS FAN, man it got intense.
Wow an amazing game. Can't believe manu missed that bunny at the end of regulation tho.
The Spurs adore Manu for his hyper-aggressiveness and never give up attitude. But for every big 3 that Manu's uber-aggressive style yielded like at 9:20, there was always the caveat like at 9:52 where he makes an inexplicable foul that ends up costing us the game. Six years later, Manu's play style has yielded more dividends than deficits; however, this game was heart-breaking for all Spurs fans.
I miss these rivalries. Spurs and Mavs were always top teams. Now the NBA has changed, everyone is trying to team up and take the easy way. Rivalries like these don't exist. I respect Dirk for ALWAYS being with the MAVERICKS thru the good and bad times, the Championship he brought home in 2011 means a lot. I also respect Duncan (Future Hall of Famer) Nothing will ever beat these TEXAS RIVALRIES.
Greatest series ever.
Also,there are a lot of great rivalries in the NBA today:
1)Miami vs Boston
2)OKC vs San Antonio
3)Miami vs NYK
4)LAC vs Memphis
5)Indiana vs Miami
6)San Antonio vs L.A.
7)LAC vs L.A.
There's just a couple more other than those,but there are more than 3/4 rivalries in the NBA.
comments like this are a clear sign of somebody losing a argument. Emotion takes over and reason flies out the window.
playoff leader in total defensive rebound in NBA history, number 2 in offensive rebound in NBA playoffs history, number one in win shares in defensive rating in NBA finals history, the only player to average 25.1 ppg, 5.3 apg, 17 rpg, 5.3 bpg (the 25-15-5-5) in an NBA finals (2003), etc.
i havent seen is on utube, its on nba t.v archives. Like i watched the road to victory where hakeem won his second ring and they had shaqs comments about hakeem after being swept. Shaq was saying hakeem is the greatest player hes ever played against. When tim came to the spurs david said he be the high low guy giving duncan more touches. They show david helping tim alot on his low post game too. Its a fun watch
From Wiki about his defence:
Some critics have alleged Nowitzki's defense is a weakness, as he averages just over one block per game and never made an All-Defense Team. However, playing more around the perimeter takes him out of position where a typical power forward would be detracts from his overall defensive stats.
...he is ranked 8th in active players for defensive win shares, placing him higher than Kobe Bryant, who has made the All-Defensive team 11 times.
Wow! What a great game!!
I would agree.
I just think Dirk is a slightly tougher cover because of his hybrid status and ability to juke pretty much all other 4's. Remember, Pop had to go small in the 2006 series and play Horry and Tim instead of his usual twin tower lineupof Rasho or Nazr. And back then, that is something that Pop never did. That's the kind of stuff im talking about. Dirk's hybrid status causes major headaches and causes coaches to change their entire game plan.
Avery Johnson inserting Diop late in this game to give The Big Fundamental a different look was critical to allowing Dallas to pull ahead in OT. It also set Diop up for a pretty bog payday he never lived up to.
For any lurkers who just started reading these comments on here, let me make my position very clear.
Tim Duncan is the greatest PF to ever lace them up. He was so good that he could have a off game by scoring only 10 points, but still dominate by getting 19 rebounds and 5 blocks. That is what separates himself from the rest of the pack.
Dirk is a great offensive player with a arsenal that surpasses Tim's, making him the better player on that side of the floor.
Dirk and Duncan both clutch
I wouldn't say Duncan is overrated. In fact, he's one of the most underrated superstars of this era alongside Dirk. Duncan was just blessed to have teammates like David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and a deep bench year in and year out and above all, an all-time great coach Gregg Popovich. All of those combined made Duncan look like the hall-of-fame top 5 PF of all-time. On the other hand, Dirk has never had that much luxury year in and year out.
Wow I never noticed before but Duncan got raked hard across the arm with 00.6 still on the clock.
spurs got robbed
***** Well, Terry shouldn't have given a guy a purposeful shot to the gonads then.
***** And if Duncan did not foul out with Dirk stepping on his foot in one of those OT games they win! If Finley did not get a tech taken away later on by the league in which they lost the game in OT they win by a POINT! Don't start on calls that series or what ifs, the Mavs got some favorable calls all series that made a different. TNT crew after the game, especially Charles in game 4, NBA REFS SUCK. I remember it.
Dirk's handles, quickness(for a 4 anyway) and size are what make Dirk special. It gives him the ability to do what other big men are incapable of(including Duncan)
Year in and year out I see guys have great years with Dallas playing next to Dirk. Then they leave and their FG falls off the face of the earth. Go compare JJ Barea and Caron Butler's FG% from last year to 2011 in Dallas. It's significant and clear evidence of what you deny...that Dirk makes those around him better!
This was the only reason, in my eyes, the Spurs didn't go for a threepeat (05, 06, 07)... But I don't wanna talk about it. lol
Dirk's 48 against OKC was incredibly impressive because he destroyed any defender OKC sent, and they sent damn near their whole team to guard him at one point or another.
But Duncan is still very clearly better, IMO. He was dominant from Day 1 and can anchor a team defensively, something Dirk could never do. He's reliable on offense, a devastating rim protector and post defender on defense, a great passer, and has nerves of steel. Best PF ever. Even better than KG, my favorite PF.
PF battle for the ages. Only separating factor between these two is that Dirk is a Hall of Famer, Duncan is the best PF of all time and should be considered a top 5 player ever if he can win his 5th title at age 37.
I hate the mavs but Dirk is something else. There might never again be a 7 footer who plays the game like he does. Enjoy these two while you can, retirement is looming for both
I don't get why people care so much "who's better" at this or that ... Let's Just appreciate both player's greatness instead of arguing !!!
You're right about teammates being a factor. That's why I said even if you took championships out of the equation Duncan was still the more dominant player. The year Dirk won MVP (2006-07) he had the best team in the league record wise but choked in the 1st round against the Golden State Warriors. You think Duncan would've been intimidated by 6'8" defenders? No way.
What the hell are you saying, man? Tony Parker was a 28th pick and Manu was 57th pick. The reason why they've become what they are right now was because Tim was being double team down the post, thus giving them room to penetrate and shoot ( watch the video). Also, Robinson was averaging 7.8 points per game in 2003 playoffs and 1999, Robinson was averaging 15.6 points per game, he was old. Basically, he was a role player back then.
Playing more around the perimeter on offense, but he's still guarding post guys most of the time.
What? Back in their hayday they were the best at their positions. They're 3x Champs and future hall of famers. Definite superstars.
As a Heat fan, i honestly have to say.....YES THEY WOULD HAVE! Thanks for giving us the championship Dirk
"You don't judge players on rings"
I strongly disagree. The ultimate goal in any sport is to win games and championships. If you're not playing for that then there's really no reason to compete. Things like individual production, consistency and MVP's also have their place but you have to win.
"You play to win the game." - Herm Edwards
You are correct, and i said as much earlier. My premise is that Dirk is the better and more impactful offensive player.
But overall, with Duncan's great D and O, he is the better PF...in fact, TD is the GOAT pf...
Duncan is no slouch, he was great.
But with Dirk you are talking about a dominant 7 footer with guard skills. This is something the NBA has never seen before, and may never see again.
plan and simple they are both damn good
nash and nowitzki would work perfectly nowadays. both of them can shoot and both can pass very well so it would be a great pick and roll team
"i've regularly shared the outdoor-court together with him while he was 15 years old and practicing." i'm talking of nowitzki of course.
Jason Terry? He played with Steve Nash and Michael Finley in the prime of their careers. He also played with Juwan Howard in his prime as well. Caron Butler and Tyson Chandler were no scrubs, either. And all of those guys were All-Stars at some point. So it wasn't like Dirk was totally alone.
I never said Duncan was better simply based on rings. I said he had a better resume and more rings so there's no argument for Dirk in my opinion.
"You judge a PLAYER on personal achievements."
Duncan's personal achievements (his resume) are greater than Dirk's. He's also outplayed him head-to-head. There is no argument for Nowitzki.
This is just a fine example of a heated rivalry and determination to reach the finals. The spurs were number 1 but the hunger for the mavs to make a run was greater. Had the heat not gotten help from the refs, mavs would have had a ring then but I doubt they would have faced off with the big 3 in 2011 and shocked everyone. Spurs would have 7 ring had they won.
One great playoff run doesn't vault him over Duncan or even Garnett for that matter.
I enjoy watching great scoring performances where a player gets hot from the field. Having twice as free throws as field goal attempts isn't that exciting in my opinion. It's incredible that Dirk was able to make all 24 free throws though.
Yeah I'm such a hater that I uploaded a video of Dirk leading his team past the Spurs in a Game 7.
Why are you getting so upset over an opinion?
Yeah, people don't understand that the best defense is played as a team not as an individual. Look at the Mavericks back in 2011, the only legitimate defenders they had were Marion and Chandler yet they were able to contain every team they faced. While on offense, no matter how good Duncan and KG are on defending, they can't stop Dirk.
Steve Kerr on the Mavs 2011 title team: " Most championship teams have a big 3, this Dallas team has a big 1 and a little 8".
Being a bigger threat to a team's defense does more damage than beating someone 1 on 1. I'm really confused as to why Dirk fans who have posted under this video always neglect the playmaking abilities of both players. Duncan is the better passer because of his superior court vision, not because he plays in the post. During the 2003 postseason he averaged over 5 assists & is 1 of only 4 or 5 big men (Wilt, Kareem, Walton and I believe Russell) to average over 5 assists in the Finals.
I don't need to do research. I saw the entire series. Nellie knew that Dirk didn't like contact and would settle for jumpers if you got a little physical with him (at the time) which is why Stephen Jackson was his primary defender. That's no excuse for Dirk's play in the series though. He was the MVP and had the best team in the league. He should've dominated those "midgets" (as Barkley called them). Instead he let guys like Jackson, Barnes & Harrington bully him into shooting 38% for the series
Where was Dirk's superior post game against the Warriors in 2007? You remember that year right? Dirk won the MVP and was intimidated by players who were 4 inches shorter and at least 20 pounds lighter. Charles Barkley kept saying that he was playing soft and needed to "punish those midgets" but Dirk kept shooting jumpers.
I'm a die hard fan, but I'm also a realist. Duncan is better, plain and simple. But if I had to pick between him and dirk id choose dirk every single time. I don't care what Duncan brings to the table. I grew up watching Dirk. That's my guy.
Dirk is a hell of a shooter
is the david robinson documentary on youtube??? =) i want to watch!!!
You can't take away one incident (Ginobili foul) and expect everything else to remain exactly the same. If the Spurs win in '06, no one knows if they win in '07.I think that loss in '06 gave them some kind of new hunger which surely helped their chances of taking '07.
It's similar with the Mavs. I'd say they don't win '11 w/o the loss in '06 against the Heat because they had that "with a vengeance" approach last year which is necessary.
Defense is played as a team. While offense is mostly ran on isolations to draw double teams to get someone open. Dirk can drop 30 on Duncan and KG anytime he wants regardless on how good they are defensively. I'm talking about Dirk's effectiveness on a team game not on a One on One game.
Even if you take championships out of the equation, Duncan was the more dominant player in his prime. He was more well rounded offensively than Dirk and was a superior defender by a wide margin making a total of 13 All-Defensive Teams (8 of them being on the first team). If you compare their resumes it's clear who the better player is. Dirk is great but let's not go crazy.
9:49 of this video.
There is your "inside moves".
Dirk gets points in the paint when he needs to, just not in the traditional low post fashion.
I'm a Mavs fan and here is my list of greatest 4's:
1.) Duncan
2.) Malone
3.) Dirk
4.) KG
5.) McHale
I only rank guys I have actually seen play.
You could argue that KG is 3rd since he was better defensively. But since he was in the lottery in Minnesota and Dirk has pretty much owned KG in their careers, that argument can be countered.
Being efficient is one of the best ways to win. Sure he has 5 rings. 3 of them were predominantly because of Shaq's monster efficiency. Kobe's been shooting under 45% as of late and look where that got him. Even back in '09 and '10 he shot 6/24 in the field only to get bailed out by his bigs like Gasol and Bynum and of course don't forget the refs.
I don't care ! Dirk did something most players can't do, put the whole team on their back , winning it all when no one believed them, Dirk is a beast and a Champion! Duncan is too, but Dirks Championship was so special and fun to watch!
This is the duel between the greatest power forwards of all time and behind them are the likes of Malone, Barkley, Garnett and McHale.
great players going at it
The guy who posted the video edit it, just watch the time left on the clock of the game. He just edits it to the next exciting play.
And did the wiki article claim that he always defends around the perimeter? /rolleyes
The 2003 Spurs team was comparable to the 2011 title team. Manu and Tony were not Manu and Tony yet.
Tim was a BOSS on both sides of the floor, but especially defensively.
Just want to make sure you are understanding my point. Tim is the better over player, but I feel that Dirk has a slight edge offensively because of his hybrid status, size and the overall ability he has to make those around him perform better.
Of course defensively, it isn't even close. TD blows him & most others away.
Duncan very clearly had more help.
I've never met a Spur fan who has denied that fact.
as a Spurs fan i always loved Tim vs Dirk...i felt Tim was the one guy who could slow Dirk down
I'm not disputing Dirk's dominance in the 2011 postseason. He was incredible and deserves to be a champion. The argument comes when you try to vault him over someone who's widely regarded as the best PF in history. Duncan's resume is better, his head-to-head stats against Dirk are better and he's more well rounded. You brought up scoring as your argument for Dirk but what about the rest of his game? Duncan is a better rebounder, passer and defender.
Your definition differs from mine. IMO, "post play" is when a player(usually with his back to the basket) is attempting to score over his defender within a 15 foot radius of the cup. I can score from the FT line and if my foot touches the paint, it is considered PIP. So why should it make a difference if I do it from the baseline? And why should it make a difference if my fade hits the same percentage as a TD jump hook under the hoop? Technically It's post play because u need to post to do this
MAN lol duncan was whacked from dirk on that last second attempt in regulation haha.
love it! :D
Early in his career Duncan pushed the ball up court when needed. And my point with Duncan is that his passing spread out the floor in the halfcourt. Dirk is a blackhole in the offensive set. He's always looking for his shot first be it in traffic or not. When the spurs play you always see them look for the BEST shot getting it to the open man. Popovich said in an SI article "The offense runs thru Duncan, we surround him with guys who have a "skill" (shooting, defense, rebnding) but arent stars.
oh man Manu was great in this series!!!! had the spurs won game 7. Manu wouldve been a hero and deserved more credit for the Spurs success
You do have a point about Duncan's supporting cast being better over the course of his career though. If you look at the 2003 Spurs that had a young Parker and Ginobili (who hadn't come into their own yet) and a cast of old players (Robinson, Smith, Kerr, Willis & Ferry), I'd argue Duncan has done more with less. Tim led the Spurs in assists with an average of 5.3 apg in the postseason and had a near quadruple-double in Game 6 of the Finals. Sorry, I just can't see a legit argument for Dirk.
Dirk's 48 against OKC wasn't that impressive when you consider that half of those points came from the free throw line. He's a better scorer I'll give you that but Duncan is better in almost every other category and was considered superior when both players were in their primes. Duncan's MVP's, defensive dominance and clutch performances put him ahead.
In my humble opinion, Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan are the best because of how they made themselves, and their teammates better.
Why is everyone so quick to point out Dirk's shortcomings? What about Duncan's? He's also on that short of list of guys who lost to an 8th seed. 6x his team lost in the postseason when they had HCA. 43% shooting the 2008 WCFs, when his team really could have used the offense? Why doesn't any of this stuff ever come back to haunt Timmy? Yes, he has four rings, but he shouldn't get a pass for everything.
@TomTheSpursDude Lol idk where this confidence that they wouldve beat the Heat is coming from.
And yet you ignored everything else I said. It's a fact back then when he was young but now he's barely a threat. It was a fact the first half of Duncan's career. But Dirk has been burning teams on isolations and double teams ever since 2000 till now.
This argument is really pointless though because the general consensus is that Duncan was more dominant. Prior to last year Dirk was known as a choke artist in the postseason and no one had him as a Top 5 PF, let alone the best PF ever (which Duncan is). Dirk is the better scorer and does have the advantage in longevity but to me prime is more important. What did you do from an invididual and team standpoint at your very best?
Irrational would be saying Dirk is a better passer than Duncan. I already gave Dirk credit for being a better scorer. But if you think Dirk is a better overall player than i'm afraid you're being unrealistic. Ask any one who watches basketball out there and they'll tell you Duncan is an All-time PF. I give Dirk all the credit for getting hot and having a legendary playoff last in 2011. Took his game to another level. But if you think he's played at that level his whole career, youre crazy
Are you kidding? If you're talking about RIGHT NOW than ok, but you do understand that Tim Duncan is possibly THE BEST PF of ALL TIME. 2-time MVP, 4 championships, 3 time Finals MVP, 13 All-NBA teams, 13 All-Defensive teams. Most fundamentally sound player ever to play, one of the smartest & most respected players of all time. NEVER failed to perform in the playoffs. Mavs, lost in 2006 finals to a worse Heat team, lost to 8th seed Warriors in 2007 while in Dirk's prime. Dirk better? Please.
how did that three become four points to tie? maybe im just over thinking this ( 8:59 )
Yeah..despite the age,every team would like to have a guy like Nash
I never said rings were personal achievements.
Duncan is in contention the best defensive player of all time. Even at age 37 he looked better than Marc Gasol on defense(although the way the two play defense is different). Dirk is a better offensive player but that's about it.
I hated Dirk,back in his prime.I hated him even more so when we faced him in the 2006 Finals,I know that we had help with the refs,but at the same time,I was happy we shut up the media about Dirk being the new Hero of the NBA.When he&Dallas beat us in a revenge rematch in '11........Dirk earned my respect...and I stopped hating the guy,although we lost,he showed me he really wanted the title,and he worked hard for it.Dirk's a 1st ballad hall of famer,and was a very underrated defender as well.
Top 2 PFs ever
great teammates 8:21
It's a fact that Duncan commands more double teams. I watch both players. I'm not making it up. hes a killer on the block and teams DT him every time.
Let me make this clear to everyone. Tim Duncan had the luxury to play with bonified stars and hall-of-famers his entire career. Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, David Robinson, Gregg Popovic, etc. Hence him having multiple rings. But to say that Dirk is not at the same level if not better because of that lone reason is plain ridiculous.
Dirk's offensive game is so good that it can impact a game more than Duncan's offense and defense combined. You know it's true.