I'm now a complete convert to sugar water. The impact on my performance and recovery has been unbelievable! It's the single most important change I've made in my nutrition. Thanks Jesse.
Hi Jesse - Well done for correcting some mis-information and backing it up with a strong Evidence Based Approach. Just one small correction though. Country to common belief, ingesting carbohydrates do not spare muscle glycogen. It will spare liver glycogen only. It does not change your conclusions, just an interesting point and correction to one statement.
Hey Jesse. Loved the format of the video and the examination of training peaks opinions compared to actual scientific data. Answered a lot of questions for me. Thanks 🙏🏼!!
You nailed it Jesse, thanks. I experimented with fasted Z2 in the mornings and came to the view I was making myself tired for a weights session the same day. My morning 2 hour Z2 (3-4 a week) is now after breakfast (porridge), I drink water for the first hour then sip on an energy drink for the second hour. I then take more carbs after the ride. That seems to work best for me. Always thinking about speedy recovery for the next session. Plus I enjoy my Z2s (I do around 73% HR max at 290W) much more - feels like a nice day on the bike, legs just feel warm, no strain.
@@nerocoaching Thanks! I need to work on my threshold now - have been doing sweet spot at 350W (4x15 mins with 5 rest) with my HR at around 85% Max HR. Will extend that further, and then increase intensity with some 15-20 min reps. I’m experimenting with building up to a few threshold efforts which I think could be around 375W (which would be 5w/kg at age 54). I made massive progress over a year doing lots of top Z2, and it feels so much less taxing that blocks of sweet spot. I’ll see this year if it pays off or not, but has been fun trying.
Riding without fueling yourself just burns you the fuck out its honestly sad that this is still recommended and done by some people as it doesnt help anyone and even harms people. Its great that you debunk shit like that.
Great breakdown of this article. Recently I did 16 hours straight with 120 gms of carbs at the proper ratio. Before I heard of Poglacar I would have thought this was insane and I would have been bloated and puking. I never felt better on a long ride. Really appreciate the content.
Hi Jesse, thank you very much for your evidence based approach. It’s much appreciated and it’s pleasing to see you are getting your due credit with the climbing subscriber numbers. I was wondering if you could point me in the direction of any evidence on the negatives/side effects of for example sugar water or gels. Most recommendations by authorities seem to be less sugar etc. I’m thus wondering if these recommendations (e.g guideline daily amount for sugar is 120g/day in the UK) don’t apply since we are doing strenuous exercise or whether there might be hidden effects such as diabetes, dental health etc that we won’t know of until later down the line? I would really appreciate your take on this. Thanks again.
My training plan to a big event this summer, the way how I feel the load from from all 2h+ z2/z3 and how quickly I recover from those totally support the paper Jesse was referring too. Couldn’t agree more. During long rides you eat for the next hour and for tomorrow. Also, the only way I could ride day after day during a training camp was consuming a lot of carbs before, during and after rides.
Good chart there at the end, something I used to do was try to squeeze in a workout before dinner (evening meal), without having an intake of carbs, even a zone 2 ride sometimes was difficult due to low energy availability. Learnt the hard way it is just not worth scrimping on carbs before / during workouts.
This was very interesting video. This is the opposite to what I have been told by old school cyclists. I have often under fuelled for races. Nationals and Oceanias recently. Will be changing my carb intake in training and racing.
So, you select a study by Podlogar, extract a single paragraph, read from it, and then consider your argument complete. Did you delve into the referenced sources? Podlogar states, 'A recent study indicated that the capacity to utilize fat during exercise in an overnight fasted state is best correlated with CS activity [162], a marker of mitochondrial content [163] that is itself well correlated with training volume [144].' If we examine source 144, it asserts that 'Exercise training volume is more important than training intensity to promote increases in mitochondrial content.' This opens up an intriguing line of inquiry: could it be that LCHF (Low-Carb, High-Fat) training enhances recovery, thereby enabling a higher training volume? This hypothesis challenges the conclusions drawn by Podlogar. By improving recovery times, athletes on an LCHF diet might be capable of increasing their training volume, which, as source 144 suggests, is crucial for boosting mitochondrial content. Moreover, anecdotal evidence from LCHF athletes supports this hypothesis, with many reporting enhanced recovery and the ability to sustain higher training volumes. This is further corroborated by the use of ketone esters in professional cycling teams, which is purportedly for the same benefits-improved recovery and increased training capacity. If this hypothesis holds, it fundamentally questions the points made by both Podlogar and your interpretation of them. It suggests a potential paradigm shift in how we understand the relationship between diet, recovery, and training volume in athletic performance.
Thanks Jesse. Really important message for female athletes. Compared to men, many female athletes are already highly fat adapted and restricted/low carb training for them can result in overall low energy availability. If you want to improve, fuel your training properly.
Explain a bit why Poggi's doing 4 hours of Zone 2 before any training session a day. Mitochondrial adaptation is the biggest reason why you need fat oxidisers at best.
Argument 4 also involves a trade-off. A High-Fat, Low-Carb (HFLC) diet can increase the levels of various transporters, such as the Monocarboxylate Transporter 1 (MCT-1), which facilitates the uptake and utilization of lactate as an energy source. Additionally, many HFLC athletes strategically incorporate carbohydrates during their training regimens to ensure they maintain the metabolic flexibility to efficiently burn carbohydrates during intense training sessions or competitive races. This approach allows them to benefit from both enhanced fat oxidation and the ability to utilize carbohydrates effectively when needed.
I have done 150 g/h of table sugar for 3 hours at 280 watt without any stomach isssues. So my question is: Is there any reason why i should not eat as much as possible when Racing? Im thinking maybe there is no reason for me to eat that much if i can not absorb it anyways. And if i eat 400 grams of pure sugar on most rides, it may not be that healthy
Obviously, the absorption rates are highly specific, i.e. 120 g/h is training population average upper limit. There are individuals that can absorb more than that. I think, one can test it for him/herself on a turbo trainer, given the comparable nutrition, recovery, and GI status. Check the blood sugar before the workout and in the beginning, and start taking carbs at decided time points. Do it for several dosing regimens. If you see dose-dependent increase in blood glucose, then you're good to go with a higher than conventional upper limit. I plan to do similar experiment myself next indoor season. But consumption of so much sugar made me more mindful about what I eat off the bike, although sugar intake during aerobic exercise is partially insulin-independent...
Yes it's not advisable to always fuel as much as you can tolerate, even during a race. It appears as you go into very high intakes (what is considered "very high" depends on the individual rider and carb source), but let's say it's usually 100g per hour and above. If the intensity of the riding isn't high, that intake can cause a reduction in fat oxidation and an increase in endogenous CHO oxidation (muscle & liver glycogen use). Not what you'd expect. You shouldn't run into that problem if you keep fuelling to limited to 90g per hour and use a glucose & fructose product (like table sugar). Only going above 90g per hour during the intense parts of a race, and perhaps only going above 90g per hour if you are a very well trained / elite rider with a big energy turnover at high intensities. Example of this in action at Snowy Classic Fondo recently, I staggered my CHO intake to follow this approach. 60g per hour for the first 2.5 hours, as it was mostly < zone 3. Then last 2.5 hours as climbing started, I took in 120g per hour. If I had fuelled with 120g per hour the entire time, there is some evidence to suggest I'd actually be worse off in terms of available muscle & liver 2.5h in, because that very high CHO intake and low exercise intensity at the start can case the endogenous CHO oxidation rate to increase. Have a read of this if you're interested: physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.14814/phy2.13555
@@nerocoaching Hi Jesse Im not sure why that last paragraph would happen i.e why would endogenous CHO rise if Im shoving more exogenous CHO down my neck? I think the limit to the CHO we take in would be dictated by GI distress bcos if we ultimately take in more than our intestines can clear then the contents of the intestines will become hypertonic and draw in more water from the blood and basically giving us the sh!ts. During exercise the muscles will draw in glucose from the blood. If the glucose demand from the muscles rises then this will be supplied by either exogenous glucose or liberated endogenous glucose. If we consider a modest to low output at the pedals being 150w and assuming the body is just 25% efficient at creating that energy (meaning creating heat and then sweat to combat that heat etc is 450w) then the bodies real energy production to produce 150w at the pedals is in-fact total 600w. To create 600w/hr of energy from sugar alone = 130g sugar/hr. If we assume the upper limit of CHO absorption from exogenous source is 130g/hr then riding anything over 150w at the pedals means we are still burning more than we are consuming
Inigo san milano says it’s a trade off (in agreement with the article) of optimised fat or carb use. If you’re doing ultra endurance then being fat optimised *could* be good.
I find that in ultra cycling (24-48 hours ). your going to perform better at high carb intake. After 48 hours for me the power drops so much it does not matter what you eat.
Really appreciated the paper on the gut training! Been looking for some more actionable ways to try and gut train. In my experience all the coaches/podcast I consume just throw that term out all the time but never offer any real methodology to do it.
Hey jesse. Loving the channel amd content. I suffer with psysorsis quite badly and in the process to rrying to clean up my diet and see if it clears my skin. Ive found sugar and carbs defiantly agitate my skin. Im going to try cuts these out altogether but really worried about affecting my performances. Im just an keen ameature but been making some good progress for me but i need to get my skin under control. Its so painfull and destroying my life. So queastion is can cyclimg be done on a fasted keto diet.
Thanks. From research I've seen there is definitely muscle glycogen sparing benefit from carb intake: physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.14814/phy2.13555
Yeah I’ve used sugar water and yeah it works fine, but mixing your carbs types i.e. Flow formulas has a tapioca maltodextrin and agave sugar, which is about 40%-55% fructose and 60%-45% glucose. I like to add some kind of juice such as orange juice or tart cherry juice to my Flow in addition to the already existing carb ratio to give me a different sugars profile therefore only benefiting and increasing my absorption rate. I’ve got difficult sprinty Strava KOM’s an hour or more into a ride using this kind of nutrition strategy
Yea i don't want to train my body to bonk. I fairly certain I read something about the brain and the things it will do to protect itself including turning down performance ability when there is a threat to sugar stores. I used to do fasted 60-75 minute endurance rides and never really found any kind of physiological or performance gain. Sugar is the best performance enhancer
I can't speak for Tim Podlogar, but my guess as to that recommendation is that if you have a CHO heavy pre-ride snack (~1g CHO per kg BW), and the ride is short (90 mins max), the mid-ride exogenous CHO won't do much to spare the endogenous CHO oxidation. Which is not the case in a longer ride >90m, given how the recommendation changes if it's longer. I don't 100% agree with that recommendation though. I'd stay on the conservative side and recommend a moderate amount of carbs on a ride
If performance is taken out of the equation, can this strategy be used purely for weight loss, For example, the 90 min ride with no breakfast or supplement and a healthy breakfast post ride?
Weight loss means consuming less than you burn. It's up to you how you approach it, but I find spacing calories out evenly throughout the day works best for mood and consistent weight/weight loss.
I don't see the reasoning to limit fuel to the body in the tiny part of your day when your body needs it most. Fuel before and during the ride with carbs, as required to get the highest quality, enjoyable session done. Then most of us can eat less crap the rest of the day when we're sitting around the office!
reduce fat intake to about 10g per day and don't restrict carb intake. literally eat as much as many carbs as you want but keep the fat down. The bike is not a place to diet. Also don't listen to this calories in calories out crowd. No one knows how much you burn and how much you are actually digesting and taking in. Make sure your hormones are not out of whack i.e. don't underfuel during exercise and focus on your sleep, stress and recovery. Weight WILL go down if you focus on these things and strictly limit fat intake.
Jesse Sorry I didn’t know where to ask this … lots of ads lately selling “ ice baths” small little tubs of cold water and or bags of ice Have you looked at this Is there any benefit to cold water recovery Would love to get some decent advice Gary Could you do a pod in these ice baths ? Thanks
Hi Jesse - thank you for the great content. I am new to race biking and just spent 7 days in Mallorca riding 550km and 8.000 hm - a bit sore legs now :-) I have difficulty finding out how many carbs I need to get per hour - or how to calculate it. I weigh 90kg and if I go for 80% of max puls for 3 hours, how on earth do I know what to take in? is it the total amount of calories burnt replaced with carbs of a fraction. Some magic way to calculate this?
The best practise is to consume 1-2 grams per kg of body weight. So if you weight 90 kg then you should be aiming for 90 grams per hour of carbs when riding. This might be too much to handle to start with but work up to it with 60 grams. I use a good carbohydrate drink to get this in. Skyrkr drinks I personally use and have found them to be great. Focus on this and see how you go. Hope this helps.
Good vid Jesse. Coming from someone who has starting doing exactly what is written in that TP article, I will no longer persist. The table that you showed toward the end had a “Before Ride” carb volume, does the time that you have available before the ride dictate what you eat? Ie. If you are like most people in that you get out of bed 30 mins before you head to your local group ride - is it wise to thrown down two bits of sourdough or raisin toast given that it may result in an insulin spike at the start of the ride? Any advice you have for this situation?
If you eat the pre-ride meal within ~15 minutes of leaving for the ride, you'll be starting the ride as your blood sugar is increasing, before insulin is taking action. That's the optimal way to time your pre-ride meal if that ride will start intensely.
Check out this video that explains that idea, it's called re-bound hypoglycemia, that's what it sounds like you are worried about: th-cam.com/video/gqSQ0YQAd44/w-d-xo.html
Yep, good vid, funny though Tim Podlogars been on quite a few podcasts and videos, essentially saying the same stuff we can just read in his papers in the same amount of time with greater detail. As a coach I don't agree with him though, if a rider is short on time and looking for a stronger training adaptation, there are many different ways to increase the stimulus that I'd argue are more effective long term than manipulating carbs.
Hi Jesse. First time poster, longtime watcher of your content. You are smart; you know your stuff, and you are relatable. Much success to you. Regarding TP chart and recommendation of 90g/hr for high, 60-90g for moderate to high - does weight of the cyclist matter and more importantly the KJ output for a 350W FTP is much larger than a 250WFTP, so does this recommendation scale with FTP?
Would love to hear your opinion on cluster dextrin(skratch type product) vs sugar water and if there are any differences for long (6+hrs) efforts. I can’t tell any difference, but wonder if the science says different. Cheers!
Nope, potentially just slows down recovery time, can make training harder and less enjoyable, and won't help you lose weight. Better to do the reduction in calories elsewhere in the day. Makes no sense to limit fuel to the body in the tiny part of your day when your body most needs it.
Your second point is moot, as research indicates there is no significant difference in the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis between LCHF (Low-Carb, High-Fat) and HCLF (High-Carb, Low-Fat) diets. For a detailed examination, refer to the study 'Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners,' which provides comprehensive evidence on this subject. This research demonstrates that despite the dietary differences, the speed of muscle glycogen replenishment remains consistent across both dietary approaches.
I don't understand basing carb amount intake on training intensity and not kilojoule per hour. A 55 kg rider with a 200 watt FTP riding in zone 2 is going to have a very different energy requirement then 85 kg rider with a 350 watt FTP riding in zone 2. It seems like there optimal carb intake should not even be in the same ballpark.
It's mostly because CHO uptake is limited, it doesn't increase linearly with fitness level or body weight. So giving a range is usually fine, e.g. we can say at moderate intensity, take in 30-50g per hour, and that covers most riders. It's not possible in a race to say to a 50kg rider, take 80g carbs per hour, and a 100kg rider take 160g carbs per hour, the bigger rider will be limited by uptake ability and rate of maximal exogenous carb oxidation. It's trainable but not by huge amounts. It's one of the reasons why fuelling well gives a relative advantage to a smaller athlete because there isn't big differences in maximal exogenous CHO oxidation rates between smaller and larger athletes. Although a bigger athlete has a larger glycogen storage capacity, so that's in their favour...
I personally would focus on the calories you consume off the bike and fuel to train well. Sometime when training fasted we can deplete our bodies fuel sources and over consume after training to make up for it. So if you want to reduce binge eating after training. Aim to fuel well as highlighted in the video.
Hey Jesse, what are your thoughts on cluster dextrin / fructose mixes for athletes that struggle to meet recommended carbs during various training sessions?
It's likely fine. But I've never tried it and in most of the recent research they report almost no stomach discomfort when using 1:0.8 maltodextrin/fructose based drinks, which are more common. Personally, I can use plain white sugar at 100g/h with absolutely no issues at all.
Interesting video, and certainly an important topic, but it seems weird to have no mention of Prof James Morton's work in the sleep low (train high or train low) model when looking at the validity of these claims. His results, particularly in his 2021 paper on Ftp increases in athletes who train low/sleep low exceeding those of the control group. Not saying that we should all be periodising carbs or doing anything as aggressive as that training peaks article but I did find this video pretty dogmatic and reaching similarly firm conclusions without considering all the information available.
It's not about can X intervention get a good result. There are many different pathways to improve fitness, the question is which are the ones with the least risk that have the highest chance of success. And the beauty of a review paper by good researchers is they do the consideration. Tim Podlogar and Gareth Wallis are far better suited than me to assess as a whole the evidence regarding use of carbohydrates around training. Actually in their paper they cited 7 different papers of which James Morton was an author or co-author on, so he wasn't ignored. Worth a read of the whole thing here, not just the snippets I read: doi.org/10.1007/s40279-022-01757-1 "There has been substantial investigation into the role of commencing selected exercise sessions with reduced carbohydrate availability to provide a beneficial stimulus for training adaptation. However, a contemporary view of the “train-low” approach based on the totality of the current evidence suggests limited utility for enhancing performance benefits from training, but that its main benefit may lie in time efficiency." I even gave this credit in the video at 4:26
@@nerocoaching cheers for the insightful reply. I do worry about still about presenting a single review paper as an objective truth (having written review papers myself), because the author picks a pertinent point from a paper to make a single point which is then taken by the reader (you or I) further out of the original context, and it's why in any scientific publication you always have to cite the original source. My comment was more making the point that Morton had demonstrated in his 2021 paper that FTP gains can be achieved with carb polarization (sleep low/train low) above and beyond what can be achieved with traditional fuelling methods and while that may only be true in specific circumstances which the academic imposed upon the study, that is also true of every study showing the opposite. Certainly when I read this review I don't take away that only people who are already at absolute superhuman peak aerobic fitness can benefit from carb polarisation, and more that it's less likely to be beneficial to most people than just training more/better, but there's clearly potential benefits under several circumstances. I'm not saying the video is bad or even that your take is wrong I just think it's still more nuanced than presented, even within this review paper. I worry that presenting one scientific article as an objective truth uses the "authority" of science for what is essentially still a well informed opinion, and certainly in my career as a research scientist if I presented a topic like this I'd get torn apart at work because this data isn't at all black and white.
I get what you’re saying, but I don’t need to be “perfect” in my recommendations on these videos. There isn’t time to go into all niche scenarios of situations where it could be plausible that a rider may benefit from low carb training, and that’s assuming I believe there is a scenario, jury is still out (what are long term implications?). And that’s something I deal with every time I post a video regardless of the topic. There’s always 10 different things I’m waiting for someone to comment on, which I’m already aware of, and have chosen to leave out for the greater good of the audience who watch my videos to be better riders. Riders who don’t want to see every last bit of research on the topic, just the best practice at a high level. I’m of the belief that nearly every rider will be better off fuelling all training, so they enjoy riding more, have better quality training, better moods at home, less susceptible to over training, more motivation to do more riding which will lead to bigger fitness increases long term, etc. That’s message of this video, and the beauty of being a coach making a TH-cam video, not a researcher doing a systematic review.
I suspect that the reason we're seeing such extremes in 'advice' is that there are underlying agendas or biases influencing the messages. Good to remember that 'articles' such as the one reviewed here are essentially marketing. And marketing often targets the desires and unfulfilled needs of audiences. In this case, a coach that 'speaks to' middle-aged athletes of means and that perhaps struggle with weight/body composition issues may be more receptive to this kind of message.
Only real reason to not fuel on rides is if you are looking to achieve a massive calorie deficit in order to lose weight. But this makes riding harder and less fun.
wrong. you will burn out doing that and just f up your recovery. resorting to drastic methods like that means that you are not disciplined or informed enough off the bike. I'm super lean and always fuel my rides and never go hungry throughout the day. Caloric deficit for weight loss is the biggest bs people been sold in a long time. How would you even know that you are in a caloric deficit? You couldn't even tell with 24/7 lab supervision
Agreed… Everyone should eat more and do more work… however ultimately if your focusing on an event 3hrs +, metabolic profile becomes increasingly important. Once your liver and legs are low on glycogen, lips have to fuel the output. If your fat oxidation is maxed at .5 grams a minute it won’t matter if your vo2max is 90… you’ll be hobbling along at 200watts 😂 Quick math; Fat ox - .5g/pm = 4.5 cals p/m Exogenous carbs 120g/ph = 2g/pm = 8cals p/m Total work output = 12.5 cals p/m = 744 kj p/h =206watt average That’s if you can still take in 120grams an hour at hours 4/5/6 😂 💩 Fat oxidation rates gotta be up around 1.0g/pm + to “spare” glycogen Train your metabolic profile people!
I still incorporate a couple LSD fasted workouts every now and again. I do believe this TrainingPeaks article is BS. Carbs are essential to maximize training and adaptation.
I'm a strong advocate of the low carb/keto diet because it has so many health benefits. I'd been doing it for a few years with great success so when I started cycling again after a long hiatus from sports (later I transitioned to the dark side of triathlon 😂) I really wanted to make it work in my training. Initially I was doing fine but as my fitness level rose and the energy demand rose as well I suffered more and more. I was kind of OK during the sessions, even the hard ones, but I felt like s**t afterwards - weak and even lightheaded sometimes. It also took me ages to recover. Now I use carbs during all sessions (beside the short recovery rides) and I feel much better and my fitness improves quicker. And by carbs I mean table sugar. Cheap and does the job. Thanks for the tip Jesse 😊
What are the scientifically confirmed, evidence based health benefits of the ketogenic diet outside stopping seizures in patients with drug-resistant epilepsy?
@@nerocoaching It's a bit more complicated in my case. For years I'd suffered from food intolerances that I wasn't aware of. I went low carb and then keto to loose weight initially but I noticed that I felt much better so I went full carnivore and my symptoms went away. But when I started riding again I had to eat some carbs. After dietary experiments I found out that I'm sensitive to lectins (gluten is a lectin but there are many more). I basically can eat only millet and sweet potatoes. I can't use any sport nutrition because glucose and maltodextrin is made from corn or potatoes which contain lectins. I wouldn't use them anyway. You can buy a few kgs of the ingredients for the price of just a few gels. It's a total rip off. Anyway I also was hesitant to eat so much sugar because I've read that fructose is not very good for the liver (some say liver needs to transform all the fructose to glucose or fat and it has the same impact as alcohol). After seeing your video about your nutrition plan for grandfondo I decided to try sugar and see how it goes. Definitely it made my life easier. I've heard a lot about the successful low carb athletes but whenever I tried to find more details I couldn't find any. The closest thing I've found so far was a guy who was "low carb" but used carbs "strategically" 😀. So he just consumed a bit less than an average guy. To sum it up I'd wanted it to work because of my health problems but it didn't. I can either do keto or training. Not both at the same time.
@@inz_uzi No, you are the one here claiming the ketogenic diet has "so many" health benefits, so the onus of providing the evidence is on you, not on me. But then yes, I have Googled around and there is not a single credible study to show the ketogenic diet has any health benefits for the general population outside stopping epileptic seizures in drug-resistant children and a possible beneficial effect on the brain in subject who have suffered from brain concussions in sports such as boxing, football, rugby, ice hockey etc., but nothing definitely proven. I am guessing those food intolerances you are talking about have never been diagnosed by a certified clinical dietician or a gastroenterologist physician, but rather self-diagnosed?
One size does not fit all. I am not a racer. I have been doing fast group (recreational) riding for over 15 years with just water in my bottles and no gels or feeding beforehand. This is so easy for 2-3 (and for slower 5-6 ) hour rides and I typically do not get hungry after a ride for around two hours. This is how I get the glucose out of my system on weekends and get into mild ketosis. It is not always about training intensity, eventually as you age you may find that glucose and insulin levels are your enemy and that fat burning with sufficient protein in the diet is healthier. If you are 25 or less you can almost do as you please regarding carbohydrates. Have fun.
What do you think about Vlamax reduction (for improving anaerobic threshold) for cyclists with strong anaerobic capacity/with mostly fast twitch muscle ? It is one of the methods suggested by Inscyd for instance.
Natural result of what a riders training is targeting. Training for a kilo on the track? Lower volume + strength training + on-bike efforts < 60s will push up Vla max. Training for the TDF? Massive aerobic load will limit ability to improve outputs related to Vla max. Most of the stuff I've seen RE Vla max is re-explaining training principles we've already followed for years, not adding much we don't already know. Similar to the "fat max" training craze.
Yeh over 90g is a lot. MVDP was getting 100-120g per hour during intense parts of races, according to his teams performance manager last year. Averaged about 100g per hour for the entire tour of Flanders last year. That’s using products with glucose and fructose source.
@@nerocoaching most serious riders I know usually take 1 gel per hour, plus half a bottle so 250ml let’s say which brings 16-18g of carbs only so we’re looking at 40-50g at best!
That’s okay for shorter rides, or lower intensity rides. If that’s during a long ride, especially with intensity, they will perform better and recover faster if they take 70-90g per hour
Your third point is also flawed. Firstly, fructose is known to have a detrimental effect on training adaptations. When it comes to glucose, why omit the discussion of starches? High carbohydrate oxidation rates occur at the expense of fat oxidation rates. Therefore, your argument contradicts itself. Athletes can either burn up to 2 grams of fat per minute at 90% VO2max or rely on carbohydrates for fuel-it's a trade-off between the two energy sources. By focusing on high carbohydrate intake, you inadvertently reduce the body's capacity to oxidize fat efficiently.
Hi Jessie Not everyone can deal with a low carb diet and I recognize that those who have a challenge often speak negatively about any idea of it’s use to improve performance. I have first hand experience on performance improvements from low carb training and it does not discount that you also have to train with adequate carbs and conditioning the gut to absorb them. It’s all about marginal gains and for a lot of cyclists who never explored this side of training it may very well be a major factor for significant performance gains. I am open to sharing my experience with you on this
Seems like you're only applying the principle of adaption to exogenous carbs. In other words, it seems like you're overlooking or ignoring fat adaption - our body's ability to optimize metabolizing fat for fuel the longer we restrict exogenous carbohydrate intake. The longer a person goes with minimal carbohydrate intake, the more efficient the body becomes at metabolizing fat for energy. The ability for the body to enter a fat-adapted, ketogenic state is the basis for the success of Iron Man competitors like Paula Newby Fraser and Mark Alan. So, in those papers you are referring to, were the participants fat-adapted? Or were people who are used to exogenous carbs directed to restrict them? It's an important question; the the difference between comparing experts that use different techniques and comparing experts that use the same technique except you force one expert to use an unfamiliar technique. Overall, this doesn't seem like an objective analysis as much as having a bias and working your way back from there.
I agree. For performance, adapt to using fuel along the way for the reasons listed. As an aside. I was playing with fasted training while injured and only doing light efforts, but ramping up duration. On a sunny day, myself and a buddy of equal power went on what was supposed to be a 2 hr ride. My friend brought along some sugar water and I only had water. It was so nice, we decided to turn the 2 hr ride into 4 and another 1hr climb. I felt nearly identical for the entire rife (which surprised me). My friend of similar profile completely fell apart and bonked after the 3rd hour. It was just a really interesting (accidental) case study on the adaptations my body made while fasting for a few months for the first time. Again, not training to hit any peaks, but just adding loads of light intensity volume while fasting. A side benefit seemed to be a far more stable blood-sugar level. All the spikes and dips in my day just kinda disappeared all together and generally just feel fantastic daily. So if your taking a year off and just riding daily and increasing volume, give fasting a try. Pretty cool to see the results 😊
Just try more than 1 hour as a type 2 diabetic without taking supplemental carbs! By hour 2, you'll be in trouble! You don't want to risk bonking. Most of the calories are for basal metabolism, but without supplemental carbs, you'd actually cause harm. There are way more athletes that are yet to be diagnosed. That's part of the danger. Moderation!
Jessie, let’s all be honest with each other. Exercise “science” trails bro science by years. There are a dozen reasons why, but I wouldn’t ever treat any article or study as definitive. If you had a team open their doors to you to expose how they look at it (bc there’s $ involved) then it would likely be closer to a real answer.
True to some degree. But you'd be surprised how "un-advanced" some of the science is at many of the teams. Teams don't have research budgets, they are pulling information from the researchers at universities, who they usually then recruit as team staff as well. So yeh, the science is often I'd estimate 3-5 years behind, at least in the nutrition space in cycling. But I'd argue the teams aren't 3-5 years ahead either, they're only as good as the researchers they hire.
I know Ironman athletes are far more into fasted training than cyclist due to their longer races. I was listening to Sam Longs episode of the how they train podcast a few months ago and his coach was massively into low carb training sessions to work on fat
Yeah triathletes just be doin anything lol. It's all well and good not eating to 'increase fat oxidation', but that's just not supported by the research papers and science surrounding this.
Probably the two best triathletes in the world at the moment, Kristian Blummenfelt and Gustav Iden eats as much as they can, and always use hi carb. They say that the to get the most out of their training and recovery they need proper fueling. They are heavely in the high volume training and they say they would train even more if they could, but they have problem getting enough fueling. They use the hi carb fueling to train the body to absorbe as musch as posssible.
To be fair the longer and steadier paced the event, the lower the intensity, the more optimising fat oxidation ability becomes relevant. And there are so many pathways to achieve high performance, I could see some coaches focusing on it. But we see even at the Ironman duration it's still not a key focus for many of the top performers as others have mentioned.
Just a buzzword though. Most riders "fat max" will be somewhere in zone 2 (in a 6 zone system). Maybe zone 3 for a well trained athlete who does a lot of volume. You've likely been doing fat max training for years without even knowing it.
A couple of observations - I know of a world tour cycling coach that prescribes fasted rides and carb restriction at certain times during the year. Riders include household names you would watch on tv. Kenyan world champion marathon runners doing 90+ minute training runs without carbs. These are the guys you would see winning the big name marathons around the world. So there is the “science” and then there is also what world champions are doing everyday. It’s not black and white or right and wrong.
I have no dog in the fight. However, I will point out that reading a "paper" is simply the same as taking an opinion. The paper quoted has a conflict of interest regarding Mr Wallis, see cut n past below. "Gareth Wallis has received research funding from and/or has acted as a consultant for GlaxoSmithKline Ltd., Sugar Nutrition UK, Dairy Management Inc. and Volac International Ltd". Now im sure, some will say the usual and suggest that most labs/uni's and the like are funded by someone, so one can't say all the data is bias. Well, yes you can. If one is sponsored by Zipp Wheels this individual is not going to publish papers that suggest carbon wheels makes one slower, even if they do. Why? Because the funding will stop from that day forth. Further, GlaxoSmithKline Ltd are not you mates and are not looking out for you. www.justice.gov/opa/pr/glaxosmithkline-plead-guilty-and-pay-3-billion-resolve-fraud-allegations-and-failure-report Personally, I believe most if not all athletes use far too many drinks, gels, bar and general toxic food substitutes. As for amateur athletes, if one simply avoids these foods along with fast takeaway food, one will loose the extra kg's. These will be the biggest and quickest gains one can make, but often overlooked if favour of the latest gel to aid performance. Not to mention performance bike parts. I realise that these products can provide convenient packages for fuel, but the contents of these packages should not be mistaken with health. These products are not only unhealthy, but toxic. They will make you sick if one takes them in the prescribed quantities over and over. Let's not forget we are the only species on the planet who can't agree what our natural food is. Every other creature has this worked this out and we are relying on associates of GlaxoSmithKline Ltd to fill us in. By the way, this is not an attack on Jessy. I quite like the channel and have picked up some tips. Thank for sharing.
I'm now a complete convert to sugar water. The impact on my performance and recovery has been unbelievable! It's the single most important change I've made in my nutrition. Thanks Jesse.
Hi Jesse - Well done for correcting some mis-information and backing it up with a strong Evidence Based Approach. Just one small correction though. Country to common belief, ingesting carbohydrates do not spare muscle glycogen. It will spare liver glycogen only. It does not change your conclusions, just an interesting point and correction to one statement.
Hey Jesse. Loved the format of the video and the examination of training peaks opinions compared to actual scientific data. Answered a lot of questions for me. Thanks 🙏🏼!!
You nailed it Jesse, thanks. I experimented with fasted Z2 in the mornings and came to the view I was making myself tired for a weights session the same day. My morning 2 hour Z2 (3-4 a week) is now after breakfast (porridge), I drink water for the first hour then sip on an energy drink for the second hour. I then take more carbs after the ride. That seems to work best for me. Always thinking about speedy recovery for the next session. Plus I enjoy my Z2s (I do around 73% HR max at 290W) much more - feels like a nice day on the bike, legs just feel warm, no strain.
Strong man, zone 2 over 250w! That engine takes some ⛽️
@@nerocoaching Thanks! I need to work on my threshold now - have been doing sweet spot at 350W (4x15 mins with 5 rest) with my HR at around 85% Max HR. Will extend that further, and then increase intensity with some 15-20 min reps. I’m experimenting with building up to a few threshold efforts which I think could be around 375W (which would be 5w/kg at age 54). I made massive progress over a year doing lots of top Z2, and it feels so much less taxing that blocks of sweet spot. I’ll see this year if it pays off or not, but has been fun trying.
290watts for zone 2. Absolute beast
Riding without fueling yourself just burns you the fuck out its honestly sad that this is still recommended and done by some people as it doesnt help anyone and even harms people. Its great that you debunk shit like that.
Great breakdown of this article. Recently I did 16 hours straight with 120 gms of carbs at the proper ratio. Before I heard of Poglacar I would have thought this was insane and I would have been bloated and puking. I never felt better on a long ride. Really appreciate the content.
Hi Jesse, thank you very much for your evidence based approach. It’s much appreciated and it’s pleasing to see you are getting your due credit with the climbing subscriber numbers. I was wondering if you could point me in the direction of any evidence on the negatives/side effects of for example sugar water or gels. Most recommendations by authorities seem to be less sugar etc. I’m thus wondering if these recommendations (e.g guideline daily amount for sugar is 120g/day in the UK) don’t apply since we are doing strenuous exercise or whether there might be hidden effects such as diabetes, dental health etc that we won’t know of until later down the line? I would really appreciate your take on this. Thanks again.
Jesse,excellent work; highly informative and relevant video! A perfect length and amazing referencing of data/‘the science’. More of these please.
Excellent video and breakdown, Jesse, thanks for this!
My training plan to a big event this summer, the way how I feel the load from from all 2h+ z2/z3 and how quickly I recover from those totally support the paper Jesse was referring too. Couldn’t agree more. During long rides you eat for the next hour and for tomorrow.
Also, the only way I could ride day after day during a training camp was consuming a lot of carbs before, during and after rides.
Good chart there at the end, something I used to do was try to squeeze in a workout before dinner (evening meal), without having an intake of carbs, even a zone 2 ride sometimes was difficult due to low energy availability. Learnt the hard way it is just not worth scrimping on carbs before / during workouts.
This was very interesting video. This is the opposite to what I have been told by old school cyclists. I have often under fuelled for races. Nationals and Oceanias recently. Will be changing my carb intake in training and racing.
Sugar water for me was a game changer
Totally agree🎉
How much sugar do you add in your bottle?
@@JFomo depends: when it's zone 2 I do 40-60 Gramms per hour so up to 80 gramms in a 750 ml bottle
@@JFomo when it's a hard Intervall session then obviously more
@@ross88mac damn that sounds like a lot. How many scoops is that?
So, you select a study by Podlogar, extract a single paragraph, read from it, and then consider your argument complete. Did you delve into the referenced sources?
Podlogar states, 'A recent study indicated that the capacity to utilize fat during exercise in an overnight fasted state is best correlated with CS activity [162], a marker of mitochondrial content [163] that is itself well correlated with training volume [144].'
If we examine source 144, it asserts that 'Exercise training volume is more important than training intensity to promote increases in mitochondrial content.' This opens up an intriguing line of inquiry: could it be that LCHF (Low-Carb, High-Fat) training enhances recovery, thereby enabling a higher training volume?
This hypothesis challenges the conclusions drawn by Podlogar. By improving recovery times, athletes on an LCHF diet might be capable of increasing their training volume, which, as source 144 suggests, is crucial for boosting mitochondrial content.
Moreover, anecdotal evidence from LCHF athletes supports this hypothesis, with many reporting enhanced recovery and the ability to sustain higher training volumes. This is further corroborated by the use of ketone esters in professional cycling teams, which is purportedly for the same benefits-improved recovery and increased training capacity.
If this hypothesis holds, it fundamentally questions the points made by both Podlogar and your interpretation of them. It suggests a potential paradigm shift in how we understand the relationship between diet, recovery, and training volume in athletic performance.
Thanks Jesse. Really important message for female athletes. Compared to men, many female athletes are already highly fat adapted and restricted/low carb training for them can result in overall low energy availability. If you want to improve, fuel your training properly.
Great critique and corrections. Thorough, informative and practical! Thank you Jesse 💪
Explain a bit why Poggi's doing 4 hours of Zone 2 before any training session a day.
Mitochondrial adaptation is the biggest reason why you need fat oxidisers at best.
Next time I will ride with a flat tire. This low will inevitably happen in a race and I must learn to deal with it.
Underrated comment 😂😂
Argument 4 also involves a trade-off. A High-Fat, Low-Carb (HFLC) diet can increase the levels of various transporters, such as the Monocarboxylate Transporter 1 (MCT-1), which facilitates the uptake and utilization of lactate as an energy source. Additionally, many HFLC athletes strategically incorporate carbohydrates during their training regimens to ensure they maintain the metabolic flexibility to efficiently burn carbohydrates during intense training sessions or competitive races. This approach allows them to benefit from both enhanced fat oxidation and the ability to utilize carbohydrates effectively when needed.
Great info thanks Jesse :) started watching you on Chris Miller's channel.. subscribed.. Ride on
I have done 150 g/h of table sugar for 3 hours at 280 watt without any stomach isssues.
So my question is: Is there any reason why i should not eat as much as possible when Racing?
Im thinking maybe there is no reason for me to eat that much if i can not absorb it anyways. And if i eat 400 grams of pure sugar on most rides, it may not be that healthy
Obviously, the absorption rates are highly specific, i.e. 120 g/h is training population average upper limit. There are individuals that can absorb more than that. I think, one can test it for him/herself on a turbo trainer, given the comparable nutrition, recovery, and GI status. Check the blood sugar before the workout and in the beginning, and start taking carbs at decided time points. Do it for several dosing regimens. If you see dose-dependent increase in blood glucose, then you're good to go with a higher than conventional upper limit. I plan to do similar experiment myself next indoor season.
But consumption of so much sugar made me more mindful about what I eat off the bike, although sugar intake during aerobic exercise is partially insulin-independent...
Yes it's not advisable to always fuel as much as you can tolerate, even during a race. It appears as you go into very high intakes (what is considered "very high" depends on the individual rider and carb source), but let's say it's usually 100g per hour and above. If the intensity of the riding isn't high, that intake can cause a reduction in fat oxidation and an increase in endogenous CHO oxidation (muscle & liver glycogen use). Not what you'd expect.
You shouldn't run into that problem if you keep fuelling to limited to 90g per hour and use a glucose & fructose product (like table sugar). Only going above 90g per hour during the intense parts of a race, and perhaps only going above 90g per hour if you are a very well trained / elite rider with a big energy turnover at high intensities.
Example of this in action at Snowy Classic Fondo recently, I staggered my CHO intake to follow this approach. 60g per hour for the first 2.5 hours, as it was mostly < zone 3. Then last 2.5 hours as climbing started, I took in 120g per hour.
If I had fuelled with 120g per hour the entire time, there is some evidence to suggest I'd actually be worse off in terms of available muscle & liver 2.5h in, because that very high CHO intake and low exercise intensity at the start can case the endogenous CHO oxidation rate to increase.
Have a read of this if you're interested: physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.14814/phy2.13555
@@nerocoaching Hi Jesse Im not sure why that last paragraph would happen i.e why would endogenous CHO rise if Im shoving more exogenous CHO down my neck? I think the limit to the CHO we take in would be dictated by GI distress bcos if we ultimately take in more than our intestines can clear then the contents of the intestines will become hypertonic and draw in more water from the blood and basically giving us the sh!ts. During exercise the muscles will draw in glucose from the blood. If the glucose demand from the muscles rises then this will be supplied by either exogenous glucose or liberated endogenous glucose. If we consider a modest to low output at the pedals being 150w and assuming the body is just 25% efficient at creating that energy (meaning creating heat and then sweat to combat that heat etc is 450w) then the bodies real energy production to produce 150w at the pedals is in-fact total 600w. To create 600w/hr of energy from sugar alone = 130g sugar/hr. If we assume the upper limit of CHO absorption from exogenous source is 130g/hr then riding anything over 150w at the pedals means we are still burning more than we are consuming
Inigo san milano says it’s a trade off (in agreement with the article) of optimised fat or carb use. If you’re doing ultra endurance then being fat optimised *could* be good.
I find that in ultra cycling (24-48 hours ). your going to perform better at high carb intake. After 48 hours for me the power drops so much it does not matter what you eat.
Great vid mate. Thanks.
Great stuff, Jesse. Thank you! Recommendations for best glucose/fructose mix?
Really appreciated the paper on the gut training! Been looking for some more actionable ways to try and gut train. In my experience all the coaches/podcast I consume just throw that term out all the time but never offer any real methodology to do it.
Hey jesse. Loving the channel amd content.
I suffer with psysorsis quite badly and in the process to rrying to clean up my diet and see if it clears my skin. Ive found sugar and carbs defiantly agitate my skin. Im going to try cuts these out altogether but really worried about affecting my performances. Im just an keen ameature but been making some good progress for me but i need to get my skin under control. Its so painfull and destroying my life. So queastion is can cyclimg be done on a fasted keto diet.
Is there a paper for long term dental health for cyclists consuming massive amounts of CHO? :')
Hi Jesse, nice video. Carbohydrate consumption spare endogenous carbs but only liver glycogen it does not spare muscle glycogen.
Thanks. From research I've seen there is definitely muscle glycogen sparing benefit from carb intake: physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.14814/phy2.13555
Call Jesse the tax man, he came looking for receipts!!
Great video mate!
Yeah I’ve used sugar water and yeah it works fine, but mixing your carbs types i.e. Flow formulas has a tapioca maltodextrin and agave sugar, which is about 40%-55% fructose and 60%-45% glucose. I like to add some kind of juice such as orange juice or tart cherry juice to my Flow in addition to the already existing carb ratio to give me a different sugars profile therefore only benefiting and increasing my absorption rate. I’ve got difficult sprinty Strava KOM’s an hour or more into a ride using this kind of nutrition strategy
Yea i don't want to train my body to bonk. I fairly certain I read something about the brain and the things it will do to protect itself including turning down performance ability when there is a threat to sugar stores. I used to do fasted 60-75 minute endurance rides and never really found any kind of physiological or performance gain. Sugar is the best performance enhancer
Big fella, Have you ever got into a punch on during or after a bike race? Do you have any enemies in the Sydney racing scene.
Cheers - Garry Y Wallah.
Hi Jesse, that last chart has me a little confused. It seems to indicate that as long as the session is
I can't speak for Tim Podlogar, but my guess as to that recommendation is that if you have a CHO heavy pre-ride snack (~1g CHO per kg BW), and the ride is short (90 mins max), the mid-ride exogenous CHO won't do much to spare the endogenous CHO oxidation. Which is not the case in a longer ride >90m, given how the recommendation changes if it's longer.
I don't 100% agree with that recommendation though. I'd stay on the conservative side and recommend a moderate amount of carbs on a ride
Thank you. Pre ride Weet-bix or Oats and 45g in a bottle is my current fueling.
Short sharp to the point… perfect 👌
If performance is taken out of the equation, can this strategy be used purely for weight loss, For example, the 90 min ride with no breakfast or supplement and a healthy breakfast post ride?
Weight loss means consuming less than you burn. It's up to you how you approach it, but I find spacing calories out evenly throughout the day works best for mood and consistent weight/weight loss.
Maybe for quick weight lossy but not for sustainable long term weight loss.
I don't see the reasoning to limit fuel to the body in the tiny part of your day when your body needs it most. Fuel before and during the ride with carbs, as required to get the highest quality, enjoyable session done. Then most of us can eat less crap the rest of the day when we're sitting around the office!
If weight loss is the only goal then always minimize calorie intake. In fact fasting would be the optimal strategy.
reduce fat intake to about 10g per day and don't restrict carb intake. literally eat as much as many carbs as you want but keep the fat down. The bike is not a place to diet. Also don't listen to this calories in calories out crowd. No one knows how much you burn and how much you are actually digesting and taking in. Make sure your hormones are not out of whack i.e. don't underfuel during exercise and focus on your sleep, stress and recovery. Weight WILL go down if you focus on these things and strictly limit fat intake.
Jesse
Sorry I didn’t know where to ask this … lots of ads lately selling “ ice baths” small little tubs of cold water and or bags of ice
Have you looked at this
Is there any benefit to cold water recovery
Would love to get some decent advice
Gary
Could you do a pod in these ice baths ?
Thanks
You should check out Average Rob Ironman preparation videos
Great video lots of good info
Hi Jesse - thank you for the great content. I am new to race biking and just spent 7 days in Mallorca riding 550km and 8.000 hm - a bit sore legs now :-) I have difficulty finding out how many carbs I need to get per hour - or how to calculate it. I weigh 90kg and if I go for 80% of max puls for 3 hours, how on earth do I know what to take in? is it the total amount of calories burnt replaced with carbs of a fraction. Some magic way to calculate this?
The best practise is to consume 1-2 grams per kg of body weight. So if you weight 90 kg then you should be aiming for 90 grams per hour of carbs when riding. This might be too much to handle to start with but work up to it with 60 grams. I use a good carbohydrate drink to get this in. Skyrkr drinks I personally use and have found them to be great. Focus on this and see how you go. Hope this helps.
Good vid Jesse. Coming from someone who has starting doing exactly what is written in that TP article, I will no longer persist. The table that you showed toward the end had a “Before Ride” carb volume, does the time that you have available before the ride dictate what you eat? Ie. If you are like most people in that you get out of bed 30 mins before you head to your local group ride - is it wise to thrown down two bits of sourdough or raisin toast given that it may result in an insulin spike at the start of the ride? Any advice you have for this situation?
If you eat the pre-ride meal within ~15 minutes of leaving for the ride, you'll be starting the ride as your blood sugar is increasing, before insulin is taking action. That's the optimal way to time your pre-ride meal if that ride will start intensely.
Check out this video that explains that idea, it's called re-bound hypoglycemia, that's what it sounds like you are worried about: th-cam.com/video/gqSQ0YQAd44/w-d-xo.html
Did you see Tim Poglogar on a recent GCN vid talking about fasted training for non pros.
Yep, good vid, funny though Tim Podlogars been on quite a few podcasts and videos, essentially saying the same stuff we can just read in his papers in the same amount of time with greater detail. As a coach I don't agree with him though, if a rider is short on time and looking for a stronger training adaptation, there are many different ways to increase the stimulus that I'd argue are more effective long term than manipulating carbs.
Another super useful video thanks
Limiting carb intake might make you more fat adapted but ppl often forget that it doesn't make you faster.
Hi Jesse. First time poster, longtime watcher of your content. You are smart; you know your stuff, and you are relatable. Much success to you. Regarding TP chart and recommendation of 90g/hr for high, 60-90g for moderate to high - does weight of the cyclist matter and more importantly the KJ output for a 350W FTP is much larger than a 250WFTP, so does this recommendation scale with FTP?
Can you talk a little bit about fuelling
I gave my thoughts on this further down in the comments, as to why that recommendation may have been made
Would love to hear your opinion on cluster dextrin(skratch type product) vs sugar water and if there are any differences for long (6+hrs) efforts. I can’t tell any difference, but wonder if the science says different. Cheers!
What if your looking to loose some kgs? Is there any benefit under fueling?
Nope, potentially just slows down recovery time, can make training harder and less enjoyable, and won't help you lose weight. Better to do the reduction in calories elsewhere in the day. Makes no sense to limit fuel to the body in the tiny part of your day when your body most needs it.
@@nerocoaching thanks mate, makes sense
Your second point is moot, as research indicates there is no significant difference in the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis between LCHF (Low-Carb, High-Fat) and HCLF (High-Carb, Low-Fat) diets. For a detailed examination, refer to the study 'Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners,' which provides comprehensive evidence on this subject. This research demonstrates that despite the dietary differences, the speed of muscle glycogen replenishment remains consistent across both dietary approaches.
I Still cant believe videos and articles are still popping up about fasted / low carb training.
Love this video
I don't understand basing carb amount intake on training intensity and not kilojoule per hour. A 55 kg rider with a 200 watt FTP riding in zone 2 is going to have a very different energy requirement then 85 kg rider with a 350 watt FTP riding in zone 2. It seems like there optimal carb intake should not even be in the same ballpark.
It's mostly because CHO uptake is limited, it doesn't increase linearly with fitness level or body weight. So giving a range is usually fine, e.g. we can say at moderate intensity, take in 30-50g per hour, and that covers most riders. It's not possible in a race to say to a 50kg rider, take 80g carbs per hour, and a 100kg rider take 160g carbs per hour, the bigger rider will be limited by uptake ability and rate of maximal exogenous carb oxidation.
It's trainable but not by huge amounts. It's one of the reasons why fuelling well gives a relative advantage to a smaller athlete because there isn't big differences in maximal exogenous CHO oxidation rates between smaller and larger athletes. Although a bigger athlete has a larger glycogen storage capacity, so that's in their favour...
What if we want fat loss
I personally would focus on the calories you consume off the bike and fuel to train well. Sometime when training fasted we can deplete our bodies fuel sources and over consume after training to make up for it. So if you want to reduce binge eating after training. Aim to fuel well as highlighted in the video.
Durianrider “hold my banana smoothie 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬”
Hey Jesse, what are your thoughts on cluster dextrin / fructose mixes for athletes that struggle to meet recommended carbs during various training sessions?
*ie Scratch Super Fuel etc
It's likely fine. But I've never tried it and in most of the recent research they report almost no stomach discomfort when using 1:0.8 maltodextrin/fructose based drinks, which are more common. Personally, I can use plain white sugar at 100g/h with absolutely no issues at all.
Interesting video, and certainly an important topic, but it seems weird to have no mention of Prof James Morton's work in the sleep low (train high or train low) model when looking at the validity of these claims. His results, particularly in his 2021 paper on Ftp increases in athletes who train low/sleep low exceeding those of the control group. Not saying that we should all be periodising carbs or doing anything as aggressive as that training peaks article but I did find this video pretty dogmatic and reaching similarly firm conclusions without considering all the information available.
It's not about can X intervention get a good result. There are many different pathways to improve fitness, the question is which are the ones with the least risk that have the highest chance of success. And the beauty of a review paper by good researchers is they do the consideration. Tim Podlogar and Gareth Wallis are far better suited than me to assess as a whole the evidence regarding use of carbohydrates around training. Actually in their paper they cited 7 different papers of which James Morton was an author or co-author on, so he wasn't ignored. Worth a read of the whole thing here, not just the snippets I read: doi.org/10.1007/s40279-022-01757-1
"There has been substantial investigation into the role of commencing selected exercise sessions with reduced carbohydrate availability to provide a beneficial stimulus for training adaptation. However, a contemporary view of the “train-low” approach based on the totality of the current evidence suggests limited utility for enhancing performance benefits from training, but that its main benefit may lie in time efficiency."
I even gave this credit in the video at 4:26
@@nerocoaching cheers for the insightful reply. I do worry about still about presenting a single review paper as an objective truth (having written review papers myself), because the author picks a pertinent point from a paper to make a single point which is then taken by the reader (you or I) further out of the original context, and it's why in any scientific publication you always have to cite the original source. My comment was more making the point that Morton had demonstrated in his 2021 paper that FTP gains can be achieved with carb polarization (sleep low/train low) above and beyond what can be achieved with traditional fuelling methods and while that may only be true in specific circumstances which the academic imposed upon the study, that is also true of every study showing the opposite. Certainly when I read this review I don't take away that only people who are already at absolute superhuman peak aerobic fitness can benefit from carb polarisation, and more that it's less likely to be beneficial to most people than just training more/better, but there's clearly potential benefits under several circumstances.
I'm not saying the video is bad or even that your take is wrong I just think it's still more nuanced than presented, even within this review paper. I worry that presenting one scientific article as an objective truth uses the "authority" of science for what is essentially still a well informed opinion, and certainly in my career as a research scientist if I presented a topic like this I'd get torn apart at work because this data isn't at all black and white.
I get what you’re saying, but I don’t need to be “perfect” in my recommendations on these videos. There isn’t time to go into all niche scenarios of situations where it could be plausible that a rider may benefit from low carb training, and that’s assuming I believe there is a scenario, jury is still out (what are long term implications?).
And that’s something I deal with every time I post a video regardless of the topic. There’s always 10 different things I’m waiting for someone to comment on, which I’m already aware of, and have chosen to leave out for the greater good of the audience who watch my videos to be better riders. Riders who don’t want to see every last bit of research on the topic, just the best practice at a high level.
I’m of the belief that nearly every rider will be better off fuelling all training, so they enjoy riding more, have better quality training, better moods at home, less susceptible to over training, more motivation to do more riding which will lead to bigger fitness increases long term, etc. That’s message of this video, and the beauty of being a coach making a TH-cam video, not a researcher doing a systematic review.
Great video.
If you're doing zone 2 workouts to lose fat would you still recommend carb consumption during exercise?
Answered something similar to this further down in the comments
what is that thing in your front hub at 0:42?
Airhub, adds resistance to make training to power easier
I suspect that the reason we're seeing such extremes in 'advice' is that there are underlying agendas or biases influencing the messages. Good to remember that 'articles' such as the one reviewed here are essentially marketing. And marketing often targets the desires and unfulfilled needs of audiences. In this case, a coach that 'speaks to' middle-aged athletes of means and that perhaps struggle with weight/body composition issues may be more receptive to this kind of message.
Only real reason to not fuel on rides is if you are looking to achieve a massive calorie deficit in order to lose weight. But this makes riding harder and less fun.
I do all my rides fasted and only drink water. I am very fat adapted so no issues at all. Im an endurance rider and not a racer.
@@MrKadillak Then you aren't riding fast enough!
wrong. you will burn out doing that and just f up your recovery. resorting to drastic methods like that means that you are not disciplined or informed enough off the bike. I'm super lean and always fuel my rides and never go hungry throughout the day. Caloric deficit for weight loss is the biggest bs people been sold in a long time. How would you even know that you are in a caloric deficit? You couldn't even tell with 24/7 lab supervision
@@xAudiolith you know you're in a deficit when you lose weight.
@@baribari600 so we are just going to ignore hormones then?
Agreed… Everyone should eat more and do more work… however ultimately if your focusing on an event 3hrs +, metabolic profile becomes increasingly important. Once your liver and legs are low on glycogen, lips have to fuel the output. If your fat oxidation is maxed at .5 grams a minute it won’t matter if your vo2max is 90… you’ll be hobbling along at 200watts 😂
Quick math;
Fat ox - .5g/pm = 4.5 cals p/m
Exogenous carbs 120g/ph = 2g/pm = 8cals p/m
Total work output = 12.5 cals p/m = 744 kj p/h =206watt average
That’s if you can still take in 120grams an hour at hours 4/5/6 😂 💩
Fat oxidation rates gotta be up around 1.0g/pm + to “spare” glycogen
Train your metabolic profile people!
I still incorporate a couple LSD fasted workouts every now and again. I do believe this TrainingPeaks article is BS. Carbs are essential to maximize training and adaptation.
I'm a strong advocate of the low carb/keto diet because it has so many health benefits. I'd been doing it for a few years with great success so when I started cycling again after a long hiatus from sports (later I transitioned to the dark side of triathlon 😂) I really wanted to make it work in my training. Initially I was doing fine but as my fitness level rose and the energy demand rose as well I suffered more and more. I was kind of OK during the sessions, even the hard ones, but I felt like s**t afterwards - weak and even lightheaded sometimes. It also took me ages to recover.
Now I use carbs during all sessions (beside the short recovery rides) and I feel much better and my fitness improves quicker.
And by carbs I mean table sugar. Cheap and does the job. Thanks for the tip Jesse 😊
What are the scientifically confirmed, evidence based health benefits of the ketogenic diet outside stopping seizures in patients with drug-resistant epilepsy?
@@82vitt Google it and then let me know.
Nice to hear. Not easy to break through a mindset, I'm sure that it took a lot of will power to bring the carbs back in during your riding.
@@nerocoaching It's a bit more complicated in my case. For years I'd suffered from food intolerances that I wasn't aware of. I went low carb and then keto to loose weight initially but I noticed that I felt much better so I went full carnivore and my symptoms went away. But when I started riding again I had to eat some carbs. After dietary experiments I found out that I'm sensitive to lectins (gluten is a lectin but there are many more). I basically can eat only millet and sweet potatoes. I can't use any sport nutrition because glucose and maltodextrin is made from corn or potatoes which contain lectins. I wouldn't use them anyway. You can buy a few kgs of the ingredients for the price of just a few gels. It's a total rip off. Anyway I also was hesitant to eat so much sugar because I've read that fructose is not very good for the liver (some say liver needs to transform all the fructose to glucose or fat and it has the same impact as alcohol). After seeing your video about your nutrition plan for grandfondo I decided to try sugar and see how it goes. Definitely it made my life easier.
I've heard a lot about the successful low carb athletes but whenever I tried to find more details I couldn't find any. The closest thing I've found so far was a guy who was "low carb" but used carbs "strategically" 😀. So he just consumed a bit less than an average guy.
To sum it up I'd wanted it to work because of my health problems but it didn't. I can either do keto or training. Not both at the same time.
@@inz_uzi No, you are the one here claiming the ketogenic diet has "so many" health benefits, so the onus of providing the evidence is on you, not on me. But then yes, I have Googled around and there is not a single credible study to show the ketogenic diet has any health benefits for the general population outside stopping epileptic seizures in drug-resistant children and a possible beneficial effect on the brain in subject who have suffered from brain concussions in sports such as boxing, football, rugby, ice hockey etc., but nothing definitely proven. I am guessing those food intolerances you are talking about have never been diagnosed by a certified clinical dietician or a gastroenterologist physician, but rather self-diagnosed?
When will this debate just die!!
It never will because the right, scientifically proven things to do that actually work, are too boring and mundane.
One size does not fit all. I am not a racer. I have been doing fast group (recreational) riding for over 15 years with just water in my bottles and no gels or feeding beforehand. This is so easy for 2-3 (and for slower 5-6 ) hour rides and I typically do not get hungry after a ride for around two hours. This is how I get the glucose out of my system on weekends and get into mild ketosis. It is not always about training intensity, eventually as you age you may find that glucose and insulin levels are your enemy and that fat burning with sufficient protein in the diet is healthier. If you are 25 or less you can almost do as you please regarding carbohydrates. Have fun.
What do you think about Vlamax reduction (for improving anaerobic threshold) for cyclists with strong anaerobic capacity/with mostly fast twitch muscle ? It is one of the methods suggested by Inscyd for instance.
Natural result of what a riders training is targeting. Training for a kilo on the track? Lower volume + strength training + on-bike efforts < 60s will push up Vla max. Training for the TDF? Massive aerobic load will limit ability to improve outputs related to Vla max.
Most of the stuff I've seen RE Vla max is re-explaining training principles we've already followed for years, not adding much we don't already know. Similar to the "fat max" training craze.
90-120g of carbs per hour is HUGE. That’s close to 3-4 gels per hour!! I know MvdP is consuming 90g of glucose per hour during races… but it’s MvdP
Yeh over 90g is a lot. MVDP was getting 100-120g per hour during intense parts of races, according to his teams performance manager last year. Averaged about 100g per hour for the entire tour of Flanders last year. That’s using products with glucose and fructose source.
@@nerocoaching most serious riders I know usually take 1 gel per hour, plus half a bottle so 250ml let’s say which brings 16-18g of carbs only so we’re looking at 40-50g at best!
That’s okay for shorter rides, or lower intensity rides. If that’s during a long ride, especially with intensity, they will perform better and recover faster if they take 70-90g per hour
Wow those guys saying carbs are not necessary are a bad influence to normal people who will think it's good to bonk or not to eat carbs
Your third point is also flawed. Firstly, fructose is known to have a detrimental effect on training adaptations. When it comes to glucose, why omit the discussion of starches? High carbohydrate oxidation rates occur at the expense of fat oxidation rates. Therefore, your argument contradicts itself. Athletes can either burn up to 2 grams of fat per minute at 90% VO2max or rely on carbohydrates for fuel-it's a trade-off between the two energy sources. By focusing on high carbohydrate intake, you inadvertently reduce the body's capacity to oxidize fat efficiently.
Hi Jessie
Not everyone can deal with a low carb diet and I recognize that those who have a challenge often speak negatively about any idea of it’s use to improve performance.
I have first hand experience on performance improvements from low carb training and it does not discount that you also have to train with adequate carbs and conditioning the gut to absorb them.
It’s all about marginal gains and for a lot of cyclists who never explored this side of training it may very well be a major factor for significant performance gains. I am open to sharing my experience with you on this
I'm glad you debunked this article Jesse, when I read it had me very second guessing about my carb intake!
training without carbs will make you the King of Bonking
Keto/carnivore rider here. I ride fasted all the time. I commute daily to work. 150 miles per wk. food industry is killing us for profit
hEY gUYs! This guy rides 150 miles per week! On fAT aLoNe!
@@ryanpalo ehh. Avg. sometimes more. Have fun eating shit and feeling like shit
Jessie just created a new training block for dummies… “train to bonk”… 😂😂😂 #HardPass
Seems like you're only applying the principle of adaption to exogenous carbs.
In other words, it seems like you're overlooking or ignoring fat adaption - our body's ability to optimize metabolizing fat for fuel the longer we restrict exogenous carbohydrate intake.
The longer a person goes with minimal carbohydrate intake, the more efficient the body becomes at metabolizing fat for energy.
The ability for the body to enter a fat-adapted, ketogenic state is the basis for the success of Iron Man competitors like Paula Newby Fraser and Mark Alan.
So, in those papers you are referring to, were the participants fat-adapted? Or were people who are used to exogenous carbs directed to restrict them?
It's an important question; the the difference between comparing experts that use different techniques and comparing experts that use the same technique except you force one expert to use an unfamiliar technique.
Overall, this doesn't seem like an objective analysis as much as having a bias and working your way back from there.
I don't understand the infatuation some people have with fasting and low carb diets. I don't need a study to know how dumb these silly gimmicks are.
It was about time to comment about all these clickbait artcles in TP. Tim Podlogar is a scientist, experienced enoough in the pro tour.
I agree. For performance, adapt to using fuel along the way for the reasons listed. As an aside. I was playing with fasted training while injured and only doing light efforts, but ramping up duration. On a sunny day, myself and a buddy of equal power went on what was supposed to be a 2 hr ride. My friend brought along some sugar water and I only had water. It was so nice, we decided to turn the 2 hr ride into 4 and another 1hr climb. I felt nearly identical for the entire rife (which surprised me). My friend of similar profile completely fell apart and bonked after the 3rd hour. It was just a really interesting (accidental) case study on the adaptations my body made while fasting for a few months for the first time. Again, not training to hit any peaks, but just adding loads of light intensity volume while fasting. A side benefit seemed to be a far more stable blood-sugar level. All the spikes and dips in my day just kinda disappeared all together and generally just feel fantastic daily. So if your taking a year off and just riding daily and increasing volume, give fasting a try. Pretty cool to see the results 😊
Just try more than 1 hour as a type 2 diabetic without taking supplemental carbs! By hour 2, you'll be in trouble! You don't want to risk bonking. Most of the calories are for basal metabolism, but without supplemental carbs, you'd actually cause harm. There are way more athletes that are yet to be diagnosed. That's part of the danger. Moderation!
Ok this is all fine and good but what does that crazy bastard durianrider say about this 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Jessie, let’s all be honest with each other. Exercise “science” trails bro science by years. There are a dozen reasons why, but I wouldn’t ever treat any article or study as definitive. If you had a team open their doors to you to expose how they look at it (bc there’s $ involved) then it would likely be closer to a real answer.
True to some degree. But you'd be surprised how "un-advanced" some of the science is at many of the teams. Teams don't have research budgets, they are pulling information from the researchers at universities, who they usually then recruit as team staff as well. So yeh, the science is often I'd estimate 3-5 years behind, at least in the nutrition space in cycling. But I'd argue the teams aren't 3-5 years ahead either, they're only as good as the researchers they hire.
@@nerocoaching absolutely fair.
@@nerocoaching always found working w strength athletes that the community was def 3-5 years (if not more) ahead of research.
I know Ironman athletes are far more into fasted training than cyclist due to their longer races. I was listening to Sam Longs episode of the how they train podcast a few months ago and his coach was massively into low carb training sessions to work on fat
Yeah triathletes just be doin anything lol. It's all well and good not eating to 'increase fat oxidation', but that's just not supported by the research papers and science surrounding this.
Probably the two best triathletes in the world at the moment, Kristian Blummenfelt and Gustav Iden eats as much as they can, and always use hi carb. They say that the to get the most out of their training and recovery they need proper fueling. They are heavely in the high volume training and they say they would train even more if they could, but they have problem getting enough fueling. They use the hi carb fueling to train the body to absorbe as musch as posssible.
To be fair the longer and steadier paced the event, the lower the intensity, the more optimising fat oxidation ability becomes relevant. And there are so many pathways to achieve high performance, I could see some coaches focusing on it. But we see even at the Ironman duration it's still not a key focus for many of the top performers as others have mentioned.
JESSE COYLE ANNIHILATES WOO WOO ULTRA COACH TOP 10 ANIME BATTLES
Great video. I'm so tired of opinions. We want scientifically tested facts from the data!
I think you are too nice Jesse. You should have body slammed this article. Wtf are training peaks thinking??
"B"
Fasted training is to train yourself to go slow
CARB DA FAK UP MATE. 🍉
The pros do sessions called fat max rides
Just a buzzword though. Most riders "fat max" will be somewhere in zone 2 (in a 6 zone system). Maybe zone 3 for a well trained athlete who does a lot of volume. You've likely been doing fat max training for years without even knowing it.
@@nerocoaching apparently the pros version of fat max is no carbs for the first hour.I saw a video where Alex bogna discussed it
I literally unfollowed TP on instagram so I don't have to see their shit. I get so mad but its not even worth my time commenting.
Sam Long Method
A couple of observations - I know of a world tour cycling coach that prescribes fasted rides and carb restriction at certain times during the year. Riders include household names you would watch on tv. Kenyan world champion marathon runners doing 90+ minute training runs without carbs. These are the guys you would see winning the big name marathons around the world. So there is the “science” and then there is also what world champions are doing everyday. It’s not black and white or right and wrong.
SHUGGAH
This BS is only applicable when you train once a week…
The godfather of carb loading had changed his mind on burning fat for fuel and now says it is best. Uses actual papers and data .. not opinion.
Hey hey hey, guys. If your not a pro or a aspiring pro just eat healthy. Carbs and crap from a packed container is terrible for you. End of story
I don’t think that’s exactly the takeaway here… you don’t have to be an aspiring pro to be working hard enough that you need lots of carbs
I have no dog in the fight. However, I will point out that reading a "paper" is simply the same as taking an opinion.
The paper quoted has a conflict of interest regarding Mr Wallis, see cut n past below.
"Gareth Wallis has received research funding from and/or has acted as a consultant for GlaxoSmithKline Ltd., Sugar Nutrition UK, Dairy Management Inc. and Volac International Ltd".
Now im sure, some will say the usual and suggest that most labs/uni's and the like are funded by someone, so one can't say all the data is bias. Well, yes you can. If one is sponsored by Zipp Wheels this individual is not going to publish papers that suggest carbon wheels makes one slower, even if they do. Why? Because the funding will stop from that day forth.
Further, GlaxoSmithKline Ltd are not you mates and are not looking out for you. www.justice.gov/opa/pr/glaxosmithkline-plead-guilty-and-pay-3-billion-resolve-fraud-allegations-and-failure-report
Personally, I believe most if not all athletes use far too many drinks, gels, bar and general toxic food substitutes. As for amateur athletes, if one simply avoids these foods along with fast takeaway food, one will loose the extra kg's. These will be the biggest and quickest gains one can make, but often overlooked if favour of the latest gel to aid performance. Not to mention performance bike parts.
I realise that these products can provide convenient packages for fuel, but the contents of these packages should not be mistaken with health. These products are not only unhealthy, but toxic. They will make you sick if one takes them in the prescribed quantities over and over.
Let's not forget we are the only species on the planet who can't agree what our natural food is. Every other creature has this worked this out and we are relying on associates of GlaxoSmithKline Ltd to fill us in.
By the way, this is not an attack on Jessy. I quite like the channel and have picked up some tips. Thank for sharing.