Nemesis!!!! I agree that lots of these elements occur in fantasy, the problem with using them as a definition, as you point out, is that don't always occur, and even more importantly, they also occur in other forms of literature. Not a single one of these is unique to Fantasy. Nor is a single one essential for fantasy. But it is a fun discussion, and it is the endless debate that has been raging for over half a century (if not longer). Great video, Philip.
Ha ha! Attempting to define the undefinable is itself a quest fantasy of a sort -- the best kind, in fact, because it never ends. I hope to discuss some of these elements with you in the not too distant future. Cheers, Nemesis!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy If the markers you are using to define fantasy are not unique to fantasy or required to define fantasy, you will have change your moniker to Dr Nothing, so I hope there is nothing untoward at the bottom of the slippery slope you are on. 😁 5 bucks on pit of spikes, anyone? 😂😂
I’m so glad you did this response video and appreciate the complexities you brought up in trying to define the genre! Defining any genre can be challenging when there are multiple sets of criteria and no single one is required. There is also the crossover challenge in that several items can be found in non-fantasy stories, such as the archetypes or tropes that exclude magic. One thing I’ve been curious about is whether fantasy stories can stand on their own without any of the fantasy elements that happen to be present. For example, maybe there are elves present, but they aren’t central to story structure, conflict, resolution, or focus. I love seeing how the fantasy elements play an integral role in the narrative, but I’m just curious if they can ever be separated. I’m excited to watch more discussions on this topic!
Thanks, Johanna! I think that's a fascinating question about the separation of the elements. How much can we take out before we say it's no longer a fantasy? I hope there will be some follow up discussions on this!
I completely agree with you on the topic of maps. It gives a tactile sense of scope and quite often allows us to comprehend the epic nature of the landscape. When we're viewing the story through a limited third person perspective or first person perspective, it becomes easy to lose the scale of travel where as when you can trace your finger along the path and mountain range the characters are following, it helps instil that sense of wonder that you mentioned earlier.
Great insights! For me the one requirement for fantasy is that you have to distort the laws of reality in anyway. Once that happens, we claim it as fantasy.
Such a great video! I remember when I was doing my 'research project' on the fantasy genre for school and discovered that defining the fantasy genre was way harder than I had expected it to be, lol. And then there are so many different subgenres as well! I would say that magic is intrinsic to this genre, but I really love and appreciate how it can manifest in many different ways. Magic, to me, means anything that I can't experience in real life. So from that viewpoint, simply spending time exploring a different world than ours is already magic(al) and it doesn't matter if we actually see any magic being wielded in any way. Also, I 100% agree that maps are a necessity in fantasy books, especially when the setting is a secondary world. I already struggle with visualising stuff, so having a map to reference is just great to me, it really helps with getting immersed in the world and story. Anyway, I loved this video! I would be very interested to see you discuss this topic with A.P. in the future!! :)
I knew I would have good company on the matter of maps! I love your expression of magic, Esmay, and I’ll be thinking about it. I might even bring it up when I chat with the Nemesis. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, I love them too. And love drawing them. For anyone interested in videos on mapmaking for a fictional world (whether it is Fantasy or Science Fiction) check out Artifexian on TH-cam. Has some really good stuff, including where on your map various climatic regions should go. He did his research!
I really like the way you look at it for Fantasy, it is very similar to my own. Question though: would you call flying in a tin can to get to Mars and exploring that world as "magical?" I sure would. I firmly plant Science Fiction in as a subgenre to Fantasy, as it deals with the Fantastical, though that comes from scientific and technological means. I explain this much more in another comment on this video...
@@TheGeekyHippie Yeah, I definitely would! And while I generally see Sci-Fi and Fantasy as two separate genres under the huge Speculative Fiction umbrella, I can also really get on board with your idea that Sci-Fi is a subgenre of Fantasy. In the end, though, genre is just a construct and the lines will always be blurry. So long as the story allows me to be imaginative and gives me a sense of wonder, I will be happy :)
Good list! Personally, if I had to define the genre I would also do so using its most common elements. That being said, your whole video I was thinking of Frank Herbert's Dune and how everything you listed, down to language, maps and ships that move through portals applies to this book that is very much a science fiction novel. Don't worry, I know no definition is airtight, but I will now spend time pondering what makes Dune SciFi. Thanks for this and many other brain teasers you've given me, Philip!
This is such a fascinating aspect to reading, and one I've only recently begun thinking about. Thanks to AP and yourself, I've been pondering it this week, and I'm looking forward to more time spent with you both exploring this area of thought.
Thank you, Derri! I certainly find it fun to think about, and I’m glad others do too. I’m also fine with never arriving at a completely satisfactory end to this particular quest!
Such an interesting and insightful video! I haven't heard about many fantasy books that do not have any magic. However, I have heard that Gormenghast doesn't have magic!' I haven't read it though so I can't say for certain! I definitely think that having different races is also one of the key elements about fantasy. Not sure if would put that under 'made up creatures'. Thank you for this video!
Thank you! I think we could fit "races" under "made up creatures," but there might be distinctions I'm not thinking about. I really need to read Gormenghast!
I've read one or two books that seem to straddle the boundary of magical realism and fantasy, and they have people with magical abilities, but no magic in the sense of a given set of spells that have to be mastered.
Gormenghast is a strange, brilliant couple of books. It feels like fantasy when you read it, but there isn't really anything in it that couldn't exist in our world. There isn't a crumbling castle the size of a city in our world, but there could be, it's not impossible. I've come to terms with the fact that I don't know what genre it is, but it's great no matter what. :)
Very interesting discussion Philip. I feel it's often hard to categorise fantasy as well as science fiction. Often when people ask what I'm reading I'll just say it's fantasy, and if they want to know more I give a short description of what it's about instead of defining a sub-genre. Also when I go book shopping or am researching fantasy and sci-fi I go by the description of the world and plot. If it gives me that undefinable vibe of the genre that I like I'll check it out further. But hearing both you and A.P. give these examples give food for thought.
That “undefinable vibe” is a great way to put it, I think. Most of us decide to pick up our next read based on the “feel” of a book. Rarely do we sit down to ask ourselves what makes the story tick or what category the book belongs to, if any. What I’m doing in the video is probably a futile, but fun, exercise. Cheers!
Right out of high school, I fell into a huge fantasy slump and binged several general fiction novels. This just put me into an actual reading slump (along with being over-busy in college). A few years ago, I came back to fantasy, but I was older and little better at finding more things to read. I realized that I had been reading the same types of fantasy - all very traditional. Finding more books that are still within the fantasy genre, but a wide variety of environments, magic, tropes, quests, and plots really brought me back into reading. Fantasy is much more nuanced than I initially realized! So much creativity can be found in this genre that I feel like variety is all I have now, rather than the absence of it.
Thank you, this is a very good picture of the genre! I think that the aspects of liminality, quest, archetypes and a link to the past are specifically the components that fantasy draws from traditional fairy tales. The study of structural anthropology has shown that traditional stories represent the universal initiation rite, growing up to fulfil one's human potential. As you say, other forms of literature use these elements too, but it seems that fantasy is the genre that uses them consciously and tries to find new meanings in them.
When I studied comparative mythology, I enjoyed reading about anthropological approaches to the stories, which, as you say, linked the stories to rituals and rites of passage. I agree that fantasy draws from this same well, often in conscious imitation of folktales and myths. Thanks so much for your input, Igor!
Yeah a list. Makes it easier to respond to. As you were going through them I was thinking how easily they can be applied to sci fi. For example change dragons for cybernetically enhanced being or alien. There are also several examples of how a scientific mishap gave rise to 'magic'. Mark Lawrence thrives on this. Perhaps the only real difference between the two is that in fantasy it simply isn't or can't be. In sci fi, it is a lot of 'maybe'. But maybe getting ahead of potential future videos. Great, now I am reimagining LotR with Gandaf as a Biship like ship's cyborg, Sauron as AI, ring as computer chip/part of doomsday weapon....
That's very true about Mark Lawrence, and there's something I love about authors like him and Stephen King when they completely obliterate genre boundaries. Cheers, Eric!
I completely agree with you about maps. In fact this doesn’t just apply to fantasy. So many books, non-fiction especially but also some fiction, would be a much better reading experience if there were relevant maps.
Yes! I propose that we form the Society Promoting Accompanying Maps, or SPAM! Hang on . . . We might need a better name. 😁 Seriously, though, I completely agree with you that maps add so much to the reading experience. Cheers!
My interpretation of “Please don’t watch it” means You absolutely have to do it. The suspension of disbelief by itself would be an element of fantasy from a readers perspective. The realization of imagined wonder. You have a way with the right context and the right words. I would love to watch you and A.P discuss this further.
Thank you, Epic! I have a few that no matter who discusses the definition of fantasy, we’ll never arrive at an entirely satisfactory conclusion. But it’s still fun to try! 😁
I always have a hard time getting to the particulars when it comes to defining a genre. It’s hard, or maybe impossible, because someone will disagree, so I don’t even try most of the time. It’s like arguing religion or politics with someone: it’s hard to define even the base. For example, I made a video on what Sword & Sorcery is, which is of course a sub-genre. I kept it very short because I could go on and on and on and it could get really confusing and become a debate. I didn’t even bother to define what fantasy was, I just skipped ahead to the sub-genre. Anyway, this is a nice list, and was fun to listen to! The only thing I know, is that I know nothing ;).
Everything you say is true, Liam, including how little we know, and yet I can't resist the temptation to discuss topics like this. In fact, I didn't really offer a definition of fantasy so much as mention some things we recognize it by, and I think that's as close as we can come to a "definition."
You're right--it's a question that we fans should be asking ourselves periodically as time passes. I know my sense of what defines the term/genre has evolved. Regarding the Looming Past, and the fact that it's so often portrayed as a lost era of greater wonder, with something apocalyptical between the story's present and that looming past--I was so enamored of this circumstance that it sent me to the starting-point for my entire body of work. I surmised that, in an alt-mediaeval setting (European), so often the "apocalypse" is the fall of Rome. I then heard about Alaric (the Gothic chieftain) marching on, and besieging, Rome to demand payment for fighting as federati. And that he only sacked the city (famously the first to do so) when said payment was still not forthcoming. The combination of these two massive chunks of metaphoric flint struck the spark that ignited my pursuit. The underlying question being, who's really a barbarian, and why? So I suppose thinking about what defines fantasy, and the origins of those questions, is a fine place to start one's storytelling journey. As to naming an epic fantasy with almost no magic, I've got an inside tip that there's one coming down the pike this September. Thanks for always getting me thinking, Philip. Videos like this are my favorite type of bookish content. Great for starting my day.
Thanks for the insights, Vaughn! Like you, I have always found the Looming Past a most attractive lure. I'm intrigued about the magically minimalistic fantasy coming out in September. If it's a self-published or indie press book, it might be something I could read and review for Indie August, assuming I could get an ARC.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks! Great minds, right? ;) Regarding the self-pub minimal fantasy, my inside sources indicate this is very much possible for Indie August, with the very slight (and very sad, since I'm pretty sure it's going to be very cool) caveat that it would be sans the final cover, being painted by the wonderfully talented John Anthony Di Giovanni. I know the debut author would GREATLY appreciate such a gesture. If you're open to it, I'll stay in close touch on the issue. Thanks again!
Well, maybe there is not one essential element required from this list for a story to be fantasy, but certainly you need some of them. If you take out magic, medieval settings, the quest, strange creatures, maps, etc, you will end up with a Hemingway story or something. Great video and interesting discussion.
Fantastic video! I've been thinking about language in Fantasy a lot lately. Over the last ten years or so, about 95% of the books I've read have been in English. Mainly because there just isn't the same kind of cornucopia of SF/F literature in Finnish, and I prefer to read books in their original language if at all possible. Lately though I've been dabbling in Finnish language literature again, both originally written in Finnish and translated works, most recently I finished LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea (translated to Finnish by Kristiina Rikman), which I listened all the way through yesterday. And it was magnificent. I've used this phrase a couple times now since finishing it: "The Finnish language as a whole exists for two purposes. Poetry, and stories that include (or should include) the word 'tale' in the title", and Wizard of Earthsea was both". There's a line early on in the book, which I imagine originally was "The bandit lit the house of fire" or something to to that effect. Simple, straight to the point. Utilitarian. It's a simple thing, no need to make it sound pretty. In Finnish that line was "Roisto tuikkasi talon tuleen". I would use the same exact words to describe that sentence, with one addition. Poetic. The words are even in the same order, which doesn't always happen when translating between Finnish and English. Not quite sure where I'm going with this yet. Might have to sit on it a bit longer. And drink more coffee.
Very cool! I don’t know Finnish, but the little I know about it fascinates me. I’m aware that Finnish had a literary revival of a sort in the 19th century - sort of like what happened with English in the 14th century after several hundred years of being mostly a spoken language (in the case of English, the dominant, “upper class” language was French, brought by the Normans). Perhaps this revival and the language’s close association with Finnish national identity account for the poetic nature of the language? Pure speculation on my part, of course.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think you're absolutely on the right lines. The big three Lönnrot, Runeberg and Leino are definitely still affecting the language for one. All of whom have been translated by Bosely, our favourite translating Knight, as it happens. I did just finish a modern horror novel by Johanna Sinisalo, Vieraat (translates to Strangers or Visitors), and it definitely feels like this isn't the genre for the language. It's difficult to convey horror effectively in the prose, when much of the language is more concerned with softness and beauty. Even the word for horror is quite delicate. Kauhu. I'll be picking up something else by her quite soon again. Probably Ennen Päivänlaskua Ei Voi (released as Troll: A Love Story in the US). It won the Finlandia prize (pretty much our version of Man Booker) in 2000, Best Fantasy Novel from the Finnish Tolkien Society, and the John Triptree Jr. Award in 2004 for works of science fiction or fantasy that expand or explore our understanding of gender.
That was such an interesting topic! I recently read the two first books in a self-published fantasy series called The Pillars of Peace (by Tom Dumbrell) and was actually surprised that there was no magic, except the mention of a supposedly magical mirror the main character gives his sister and the mention of a man having had a witch for a mother, but no magic per say is in action in the story. But the elements this world do have is a map as it's a made-up world (though heavily based on our world in what's now England), it's definitely set in an obscure middle-age where kings and queens ruled their kingdoms (with a mix of English-sounding and French-sounding names - though some have Latin or Hebrew roots), and there are definitely archetypes (the hero, the mentor, the traitor, etc.). So in that sense it does have some of the elements you mentioned. I think what usually defines fantasy - even subgenres like magical realism - is the incorporation of supernatural elements, explained or not. I read this year The Metamorphosis by Kafka and just the fact that our main character wakes up and realizes he's now an insect was already fantastical to me despite the fact that Kafka clearly wanted that transformation to symbolize abuse and neglect, which explains the weird reactions of the main character's family to this situation. And even before reading classical and epic Fantasy, I read many classics with fantastical elements where I had to suspend my disbelief and actually read between the lines to fully enjoy my reading experience. That was the case with Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, Frankenstein (though it's considered sci-fi, it read like fantasy to me because the means used to create the Monster weren't explained and the creature was actually superhuman), Edgar Allan Poe's short stories, etc. I'm not sure why we don't classify them as Fantasy (or magical realism?), they all have unexplained supernatural elements that contribute to discuss greater themes. That's why I came back to the Fantasy you describe in this video (with all or most of its main aspects), because I found that it's the perfect genre to explore the depths of humanity and the complexity of our inner and outer world. And I can't help loving that sense of wonder you talked about. 👌
Beautifully said! Fantasy is indeed “the perfect genre to explore the depths of humanity and the complexity of our inner and outer world.” The Metamorphosis is a story I teach every semester, and it conveys such important truths about modern life. Thanks for the fantastic comment!
Is that a sneak peek at the map of your book, Philip? 😄 A fantasy that doesn't have magic can be found in several books by KJ Parker - for instance the Engineer trilogy. Although some of his books do have supernatural elements, many are stories set in a secondary world very much like ours. No magic, strange creatures or iirc maps to be found (though I still highly recommend them 😂)
Okay, because of your recommendations, Rob, I’ll read KJ Parker’s books even if they’re mapless. Also, that’s a perceptive question from you! Yes, that is indeed a little corner of the map I made for my trilogy! 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Ha! I thought it looked suspiciously unfamiliar 😆 Very cool idea! Just checked, indeed no maps in the Engineer. But, even as a fellow map-lover, I didn't miss them much. Travel between locales is minimal, descriptions are detailed and vivid when needed.
I've only now gotten around to watching the video, but: *Gormenghast* is phenomenal fantasy without any magic! And it's fantastic in so many other ways as well- the prose is probably the best I've read, within or without fantasy; the atmosphere is supreme; the characters are phenomenal Dickensian realistic archetypes
Thank you, Euan! Gormenghast is definitely the most highly recommended example I’ve seen of fantasy with no magic. I hope to cover it on the channel someday. Cheers!
On fantasy books without magic: three come to my mind immediately. Tonke Dragt's "The Letter for the King" and its sequel "The Secrets of the Wild Wood" are chivalric romances set in a secondary world (map included!). Erich Kästner's "The 35th of May" is a portal fantasy, but the worlds Konrad and his uncle travel through are not magical per se, and even contain some sci-fi elements. The book does contain a talking, rollerblading horse, though. So maybe there is some magic there. Incidently, all are childrens' books.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Netflix turned Dragt's first book into a series. I only watched the first episode and it was terrible. They managed to strip all the sense of wonder from the story. Which is a shame, since I loved the books when I was a kid. Luckily, noone has tried to turn Kästner's book into a film (and likely never will, since its english edition has been out of print since 1932. The premise would not work today anyway).
Richard Adams' fantasy novels of the Beklan Empire, "Shardik" and "Maia" have neither magic nor mythical creatures. Both novels do have maps though. "Maia" is still one of my favorite fantasy novels, and one of my favorite novels period.
Thank goodness they have maps! 😁 Many people count his Watership Down as fantasy too, and though it’s been many years since I read it, I don’t recall there being magic.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy No magic but the rabbits had their own mythology with Lord Frith and the Black Rabbit of Inlé and also heroic tales with El-ahrairah.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Watership down doesn’t have active magic, but there are quasi-magical elements. The novel begins with Fiver having a vision of the future. This occurs more than once - he is a “seer” of sorts. The main bad guy at the end disappears, and there are suggestions that he is somehow supernatural. And when Hazel dies at the very end, he is greeted by the Black Rabbit, who escorts him to rabbit afterlife. It’s definitely a fantasy novel (and epic fantasy), and I think it’s fair to say that it’s basically non magical.
I have seen this discussion for horror which frankly has even less of a concrete definition and i tend to go as broad as possible for all genre fiction. As a Stephen King fan, what i find interesting is your definition very much applies to It, one of my favourite books. Minor Spoilers The Losers club can certainly fall into the chosen ones and Pennywise is an ancient evil that threatens the world. Pennywise's history is very much the mysterious past being visited on the present. Same can be said for a lot of horror from Lovecraft and Gothic horror. There is magic in it and its very much based on the characters ability to retain their childlike imagination and wonder about the world. Imagination is both Pennywise's weapon against Derry and The Losers Clubs source of power and defense from Pennywise. No maps though.
No maps! Disqualified! Just kidding, of course. What you're pointing out is absolutely true, and it's actually one of the cool things about speculative fiction that the boundaries between the various genres are so blurry. I love Stephen King for doing his thing.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy my introduction to horror, sf and fantasy were collections of weird fiction short stories from the pulp and Weird Tales times so i have always felt at home with stories that blend genres.
Haha. I used to tell people that if a book has a map in the front, it's probably something I would read. I don't know how to specifically define fantasy, but I know it when I read it. I do like what you said about the suspension of disbelief. A lot of the things you mention also apply to sci-fi, but I think sci-fi books try to justify the fantastic with technology.
I love that philosophy about maps! That’s true about these things applying to other genres. It’s really a lot like poetry. You can have metaphors and even rhyming in prose, but would that make it poetry? In the end, fantasy might elude definition.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Pst, while we're amongst ourselves here and the nemesis can't hear us: it might be much more fruitful to define fantasy by it's function than just with a descriptive approach. Like Donaldson with his literature of reintegration which we might just boldy claim as one of it's functions. I think that guy was on to something hot there. Thank me later when the fireballs are sizzling past you.😁
I have a feeling that some of these elements are more important than others in defining fantasy. The most important one seems to me to be magic. And if there is no magic, then at least the story is set in a world different from ours. Maybe, as long as either of these two elements are present, then it is fantasy. And that might be all that is needed to define it. The other elements you mention are frequently present and therefore they exist in association with the genre, but I think are in lower places in a hierarchy of what is necessary as a minimum for a story to be fantasy.
I think I agree with you, Jeroen. Let’s imagine it this way: What works of fiction that contain magic are NOT fantasy? For any of the other elements, I can easily come up examples. For magic, it gets harder. I’m not prepared to say magic is essential to fantasy, but it might be the most important, followed perhaps by other worlds.
The way I’ve been defining it in my head is something along these lines: Magical elements explained in-world through arcane or supernatural means. This distinguishes something like Star Trek, where the power elements are explained through science. Dune is still halfway between; I’m inclined to say it’s something like Sci-Fantasy, than either or. But I’m sure there are problems with this definition too. Under it, almost all supernatural horror is part of the fantasy genre. Which, personally, I’m okay with-I love horror.
Guess I'll weigh in on this one - I'll pretend that it's a warmup to dissertation work today :) I've found Brian Attebery's approach to this issue (in ch 1 of Strategies of Fantasy) the most useful. Taking a cue from Northrop Frye, Attebery suggests that there are three ways to approach the question of describing/defining what we call "fantasy". There is the formula (this is what gets copies by Tolkien clones and the sort), which export the narrative structures, character functions, etc. of texts that are unquestionably "fantasy" - it has magic, and/or dragons, and/or a medieval motif, etc. and so it must be fantasy. There is the mode, which refers to the broadest notion, namely the injection of the unquestionably unreal, such as magic, or alternate history, or the world-generating that happens in Borges's "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (which I feel should be required reading by all aspiring fantasy authors...). This can encompass just about everything with a hint of the supernatural, from Gilgamesh to Homer to Dante to Tolkien to John Barth's Chimera and Colson Whitehead's Underground Railroad and beyond. The third approach is genre, which is a narrative strategy for storytelling that uses motifs, archetypes, myths, recognizable narrative structures, and so forth and brings them to the diegetic level. For instance, according to James Joyce's own outline, the "Circe" chapter of Ulysses (the heralded titan of mimetic fiction) is an exploration of the art of "magic," though the chapter takes place in both a brothel and the streets of Dublin and is constituted of surreal interactions, suggesting hallucination or maybe dreams. The fantasy genre, according to Attebery, would challenge the surrealism and make it literally manifest within the story. Importantly, Attebery argues that it's best to approach questions of genre through the mathematical concept called a "fuzzy set," meaning we develop these definitions from the common, overlapping aspects derived from the relationships between texts. (Which, in fairness, is pretty much what you do in this video, Philip.) I also think that bound up in all of this is an aspect of narrative discourse. For instance, Dune is pretty overtly science fiction. Yet the novel's discourse, by which I mean the narrative assumptions which underpin the text and give it its internal ontological logic seems more fantastical, which elements of prophecy and human will pushing upon and against sociological forces of historical development. Though these elements get deconstructed and interrogated by the book, it can be argued that the overall discourse is still more akin to the mythic material of fantasy. (This gets even more intricate and difficult in texts like Book of the New Sun...) But, of course, there is no way to fully arrest the essence of a genre. At the very least, the moment we assert a clear definition that does encapsulate all that we might readily term "fantasy," some intrepid author will come along and write something just to screw it all up :) Also, for the issue of magic/non-magic fantasy, I know some people have already mentioned Gormenghast (which I'll be reading this summer, finally!). There is also Ellen Kushner's Riverside novels. K. J. Parker's Engineer trilogy, I'm told, does not have magic. Naomi Novik's Temeraire books do not have magic, though they do have dragons; I believe the same goes for Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw. Doubtless there are others, though I don't know them off the top of my head.
Thank you, Paul! What an excellent dissertation warmup! Ultimately, I have to agree with you that “there is no way to arrest the essence of a genre,” which is why it’s so much fun to try. While pinning down fantasy matches the futility of Monty Python’s quest for the Holy Grail, there’s the persistent temptation to try. Perhaps this is because we (especially academics, but really everyone) have a tendency to categorize in order to confer the illusion that we’ve mastered something. Also, genre distinctions are useful to some degree in helping people find the sorts of stories they like (or, more cynically put, in helping marketers find their customers). Anyway, I can’t resist thinking about what makes up fantasy beyond “I know it when I see it.” Thanks for your input - I had a lot of fun reading it!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Glad you enjoyed what started as a warmup…and totally didn’t turn into a distraction. Obviously, no PhD candidate has ever wanted to avoid writing their dissertation. Why do you ask? I totally agree that it’s fun to tease out genre definitions. It’s why my dissertation (that I’m totally not avoiding!) is an attempt to tease out a poetics of alternate history fantasy fiction. It’s just cool to talk about :)
I’ve read 2 fantasy series that had no magic in them and I hated both of them. One was the Dwarves quartet and the other one was written by an author who I’m sure had the first name of Brian but, I can’t recall his last name. I hated that series because everybody died. I gave both sets of books to my local library (let someone else suffer). And smooth segue, Terry, but you are going to love the Curse of the Mistwraith-because-portals!
I love smooth segues, and I suspect you're also right that I'm going to love The Curse of the Mistwraith. Note as well that I came out swinging for maps. Cheers, Terry!
I was not suggesting that maps are necessary by any means. Let me tell you about my experience with the war of light and shadows… I had to photocopy that map and then enlarge it as much as I could just to be able to read it. And I was much younger than you when I started that series! In fact, I had to wait for years until photocopiers were able to enlarge prints. Of course, my eyesight has always been rude word. 🔬
I hate that we have to put everything into categories. If it worked for you and you liked it is really the only metric you need. What works for you, someone else will read and totally hate it. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. At the beginning you were talking about poetry, which always make me think of Robin Williams from Dead Poet's Society and his explanation about rating poetry. Hogwash! Did it inspire you is the only question needed?
Yeah that movie shows the absurdity of 'scoring' poems. It's hilarious when he tells the lazy student he's written the first poem to earn a negative score on the Pritchard Scale.
I think something like Doctor Who is an interesting example of what could be considered fantasy - on the surface it's often seen as sci-fi however the series isn't really interested in any sort of technological realism, and things like the TARDIS are treated as magical in a sense. The Doctor/TARDIS acts as a portal for the companions I have sometimes seen it referred to as sci-fantasy, due to its space-faring trappings. I think that really just goes to show how aesthetics play into our conception of genre as much as any concrete plot elements. Then again I think sci-fi is really just another side of the same coin as fantasy personally. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, after all
Excellent points! I agree that much of it has to do with presentation and aesthetics. For example, is anything set in space in the future science fiction? Some people seem to think so, but a lot of stories, like Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Dune, blur the genre boundaries. Cheers!
I don’t think you would call them archetypes under the stricter definitions of “archetype,” but I can see your point. The idea of the deep past reverberating in the present, for example, is sort of a pattern. I’m not sure magic could be classified as an archetype, but certain ways in which it’s used come close to archetypal patterns (like ancient words being magical). Great point!
Fantasy without magic: TOWER OF BABEL! (sorry, this series somehow always makes me want to yell 😊). It also has no made-up creatures. It does have technically made creatures, which is something different. So, it might be more sciencefiction, but it FEELS like fantasy. If that makes sence...
Pokemon doesn't have magic as far as I'm aware, just magical creatures. Also the manga Kingdom has basically no magic, but it has characters who are unrealistically large and strong or unrealistically fast. It's more just extremely exaggerated then magical. I think most people would consider it fantasy, though there's room for debate.
I am no academic, and this seems like a very academic topic to discuss. Not being an academic comes with disadvantages, mainly not having all your knowledge, but with advantages as well. Like having a mind that hasn't been molded into shape in a certain form, which offers the liberty of accepting certain notions with more ease and to be able to see things from a different perspective. For one, I always thought of the made up characters as being an element of magic. Because if there is no magic, or at least some form of supernatural at work, then you have no made up creatures, be they dragons, dwarves or vampires. Their very existence betrays the existence of magic. You could have magic without the creatures, although that would be difficult and probably boring, but you can't have creatures without magic. As far as genres are considered, I always saw myth and folk tales as being a sub part of the greater genre of fantasy, since they deal with pretty much the same stuff. That's unless you want to define fantasy as anything that is the product of an author's imagination, in which case all of literature would fall under that banner (which, of course, is not what is discussed here). As for certain elements that are specific, I believe that fantasy without magic isn't quite fantasy. There must be at least a little bit of it. Just like, for me, poetry must have at least rhyme in order to be poetry. This is my own, personal point of view, and I can't stress enough on personal. To me, poetry has always been the love child of music and literature. The use of words is what poetry takes from literature. Rhyme and rhythm is what it takes from music. You could dispense with meter and rhythm if you wanted. In the end, if you keep the rhyme, the melodicity of it will enforce a certain flow that comes with its own rhythm, even if it's not a well defined one. But rhyme is as necessary to poetry as magic is necessary to fantasy. Again, my own, personal belief.
Great to hear your response here, Claudia! I do think that magic is the most important of the elements, but I don’t think it’s essential. Elsewhere, people are mentioning a few staples of fantasy that lack magic, like Gormenghast. As for poetry, I believe it was Robert Frost who said that poetry without meter is like playing tennis without a net. For you, it’s rhyme, but as you said, it’s a personal preference, and I teach many poems that lack meter and rhyme. I suppose it’s impossible to pin these things down, but I enjoy the occasional effort at doing so. It’s always fantastic to read your comments - thank you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I suppose that depends on how you choose to define them. My younger self, who was a lot more cutting than the mellow person I am today used to call those poems prose on half rows :D They sound beautiful and they are steeped in metaphors but they would sound the same if you lined them up in a proper sentence like books are written. Poems that have meter and rhyme would sound like poetry even if you don't write them one lyric at a time.
I have produced a video defining fantasy. The title is as follows: "Fantasy is Making Stuff Up." My video is very short. In it I say "Fantasy is making stuff up." You'll probably want to watch it.
Always loving the dialogue between your channel and A Critical Dragon. Would be intrigued to hear your response to Storied's take on Magical Realism and whether you think the distinction made from fantasy is valid. th-cam.com/video/scgn2BCcht4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks, Steve! I'll check it out. I have responded to a Salman Rusdie essay in which he distinguishes between magical realism and fantasy (to the detriment of fantasy). I can't recall if you've seen that one, but it's called "Why Read Fantasy: a response to Salman Rushdie" -- or something like that.
Alice in Wonderland has no magic. Gulliver’s Travels also has no magic. (Both are portal fantasies). For me, there are only two basic requirements for fantasy: 1) it takes place in a world which is not a possible world (the world contains elements which could not be real); 2) in fantasy, at least some metaphors become actualized. I almost never look at the maps. I think They are almost always awful.
Thanks, Duffypratt! Some people would exclude both Alice in Wonderland and Gulliver’s Travels from fantasy, but I don’t mind a broad approach. I like your two criteria. About maps, many of them don’t make sense from a geographer’s or a cartographer’s perspective, but then again these are worlds which are not possible worlds. 😁
Any definition of fantasy needs a good splash of ochre! Also what do you mean, dragons don't exist? Next you tell me that unicorns are not real either. Awful thought!😱 Now that first video that was mentioned that might be fun to watch.😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy As I'm completely incapable of tormenting you, I will desist watching that video. And while the looming past is on your list of elements maybe some things should better stay there.😁 Question for the map lover that you are: Would it even be possible to have a fantasy map without ochre?
@@brush2canvas849 Well, that’s certainly an excellent point! Ochre should in all circumstances be encouraged, but I suppose we should leave room for ochre-less fantasy to be as inclusive as possible. Also, thanks for letting the past loom where it belongs! 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy As an artist with a firm believe in the equality of all colours I can only agree. Otherwise no thanks needed, especially as it dawns more and more on me that the very first video is very much a rite of passage.😁
I’m not actually offering a definition here, but rather saying that these are elements that fantasy often (but not always) includes. A lot of people would include Ulysses and Finnegan’s under the fantasy umbrella, though. Cheers!
@Philip Chase Right. I’m half asleep and missing out on words, to top the floppy description, but it’s actually a question I’ve been thinking about a lot over the past few months, what fantasy is, because I wanted to identify the thing that sends me back there (there!) again and again. I think it’s “placing” - in a place (geographically or socially etc. ‘other’), the way it lends itself to setting (who and what are housed in it) and the possibilities of what is left untold. Maybe if you have a firm sense of the untold, you can go into as much detail as you like about some things, and maintain the sense of wonder. Thanks, Philip, and cheers to you, too!
Nemesis!!!! I agree that lots of these elements occur in fantasy, the problem with using them as a definition, as you point out, is that don't always occur, and even more importantly, they also occur in other forms of literature. Not a single one of these is unique to Fantasy. Nor is a single one essential for fantasy. But it is a fun discussion, and it is the endless debate that has been raging for over half a century (if not longer).
Great video, Philip.
Well, your nemesis is approaching half a century. Coincidence? 😂
Ha ha! Attempting to define the undefinable is itself a quest fantasy of a sort -- the best kind, in fact, because it never ends. I hope to discuss some of these elements with you in the not too distant future. Cheers, Nemesis!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy If the markers you are using to define fantasy are not unique to fantasy or required to define fantasy, you will have change your moniker to Dr Nothing, so I hope there is nothing untoward at the bottom of the slippery slope you are on. 😁
5 bucks on pit of spikes, anyone? 😂😂
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd Dr. Nothing, or Dr. Void. And we’ve seen the Void. Gazed into its endless depths. And laughed.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy And a new Spiderman villain is born. Of course it would have to be Dr. A. Void to maintain that comic book feel. 🤣
I’m so glad you did this response video and appreciate the complexities you brought up in trying to define the genre! Defining any genre can be challenging when there are multiple sets of criteria and no single one is required. There is also the crossover challenge in that several items can be found in non-fantasy stories, such as the archetypes or tropes that exclude magic.
One thing I’ve been curious about is whether fantasy stories can stand on their own without any of the fantasy elements that happen to be present. For example, maybe there are elves present, but they aren’t central to story structure, conflict, resolution, or focus. I love seeing how the fantasy elements play an integral role in the narrative, but I’m just curious if they can ever be separated.
I’m excited to watch more discussions on this topic!
Thanks, Johanna! I think that's a fascinating question about the separation of the elements. How much can we take out before we say it's no longer a fantasy? I hope there will be some follow up discussions on this!
I completely agree with you on the topic of maps. It gives a tactile sense of scope and quite often allows us to comprehend the epic nature of the landscape. When we're viewing the story through a limited third person perspective or first person perspective, it becomes easy to lose the scale of travel where as when you can trace your finger along the path and mountain range the characters are following, it helps instil that sense of wonder that you mentioned earlier.
Map lovers unite! Fantasy without maps is like cookies without chocolate chips.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I made a different cookie.
@@christopherfly9374 And it’s a good thing there are different cookies. Sometimes you want a thin mint or a Samoa!
I want maps when I read fiction taking place in the real world! Maps are cool. Maps are handy. We need maps!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thin Mints! :swoons: Only cookie nearly as good is the Oreo. Chocolate chip cookies come in a somewhat distant 3rd
Great insights! For me the one requirement for fantasy is that you have to distort the laws of reality in anyway. Once that happens, we claim it as fantasy.
I like that, Marco! Of course, it results in a broader than usual umbrella for fantasy, but it’s a useful way to see it.
This was a fantastic addition to such a complex, ongoing dialogue Philip. I loved the insights you shared.
Thanks so much, Chas!
Such a great video! I remember when I was doing my 'research project' on the fantasy genre for school and discovered that defining the fantasy genre was way harder than I had expected it to be, lol. And then there are so many different subgenres as well!
I would say that magic is intrinsic to this genre, but I really love and appreciate how it can manifest in many different ways. Magic, to me, means anything that I can't experience in real life. So from that viewpoint, simply spending time exploring a different world than ours is already magic(al) and it doesn't matter if we actually see any magic being wielded in any way.
Also, I 100% agree that maps are a necessity in fantasy books, especially when the setting is a secondary world. I already struggle with visualising stuff, so having a map to reference is just great to me, it really helps with getting immersed in the world and story.
Anyway, I loved this video! I would be very interested to see you discuss this topic with A.P. in the future!! :)
I knew I would have good company on the matter of maps! I love your expression of magic, Esmay, and I’ll be thinking about it. I might even bring it up when I chat with the Nemesis. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, I love them too. And love drawing them. For anyone interested in videos on mapmaking for a fictional world (whether it is Fantasy or Science Fiction) check out Artifexian on TH-cam. Has some really good stuff, including where on your map various climatic regions should go. He did his research!
I really like the way you look at it for Fantasy, it is very similar to my own. Question though: would you call flying in a tin can to get to Mars and exploring that world as "magical?" I sure would. I firmly plant Science Fiction in as a subgenre to Fantasy, as it deals with the Fantastical, though that comes from scientific and technological means. I explain this much more in another comment on this video...
@@TheGeekyHippie Yeah, I definitely would! And while I generally see Sci-Fi and Fantasy as two separate genres under the huge Speculative Fiction umbrella, I can also really get on board with your idea that Sci-Fi is a subgenre of Fantasy. In the end, though, genre is just a construct and the lines will always be blurry. So long as the story allows me to be imaginative and gives me a sense of wonder, I will be happy :)
@@esmayrosalyne exactly
Good list! Personally, if I had to define the genre I would also do so using its most common elements. That being said, your whole video I was thinking of Frank Herbert's Dune and how everything you listed, down to language, maps and ships that move through portals applies to this book that is very much a science fiction novel. Don't worry, I know no definition is airtight, but I will now spend time pondering what makes Dune SciFi. Thanks for this and many other brain teasers you've given me, Philip!
Thanks, Raoul! There are some folks who claim Dune is indeed more fantasy than science fiction, or that it’s science fantasy, along with Star Wars.
This is such a fascinating aspect to reading, and one I've only recently begun thinking about. Thanks to AP and yourself, I've been pondering it this week, and I'm looking forward to more time spent with you both exploring this area of thought.
Thank you, Derri! I certainly find it fun to think about, and I’m glad others do too. I’m also fine with never arriving at a completely satisfactory end to this particular quest!
Such an interesting and insightful video!
I haven't heard about many fantasy books that do not have any magic. However, I have heard that Gormenghast doesn't have magic!' I haven't read it though so I can't say for certain!
I definitely think that having different races is also one of the key elements about fantasy. Not sure if would put that under 'made up creatures'.
Thank you for this video!
Thank you! I think we could fit "races" under "made up creatures," but there might be distinctions I'm not thinking about. I really need to read Gormenghast!
I've read one or two books that seem to straddle the boundary of magical realism and fantasy, and they have people with magical abilities, but no magic in the sense of a given set of spells that have to be mastered.
Gormenghast is a strange, brilliant couple of books. It feels like fantasy when you read it, but there isn't really anything in it that couldn't exist in our world. There isn't a crumbling castle the size of a city in our world, but there could be, it's not impossible. I've come to terms with the fact that I don't know what genre it is, but it's great no matter what. :)
@@SannasBookshelf Sounds like a great read!
A great addition to the discussion and what endless discussion it is, but I guess that is what makes discourse fun.
I certainly feel that way, Joff. Fantasy is not something we can ever freeze or capture, and, in the end, that’s a good thing.
Very interesting discussion Philip. I feel it's often hard to categorise fantasy as well as science fiction. Often when people ask what I'm reading I'll just say it's fantasy, and if they want to know more I give a short description of what it's about instead of defining a sub-genre. Also when I go book shopping or am researching fantasy and sci-fi I go by the description of the world and plot. If it gives me that undefinable vibe of the genre that I like I'll check it out further. But hearing both you and A.P. give these examples give food for thought.
That “undefinable vibe” is a great way to put it, I think. Most of us decide to pick up our next read based on the “feel” of a book. Rarely do we sit down to ask ourselves what makes the story tick or what category the book belongs to, if any. What I’m doing in the video is probably a futile, but fun, exercise. Cheers!
Excellent video! Always a pleasure to hear your seasoned insights on the academic side of fantasy!
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video!
Right out of high school, I fell into a huge fantasy slump and binged several general fiction novels. This just put me into an actual reading slump (along with being over-busy in college). A few years ago, I came back to fantasy, but I was older and little better at finding more things to read. I realized that I had been reading the same types of fantasy - all very traditional. Finding more books that are still within the fantasy genre, but a wide variety of environments, magic, tropes, quests, and plots really brought me back into reading. Fantasy is much more nuanced than I initially realized! So much creativity can be found in this genre that I feel like variety is all I have now, rather than the absence of it.
So true! Fantasy is becoming a richer genre every year, and I think we’re in a fantasy golden age in that sense. Exciting times!
Thank you, this is a very good picture of the genre!
I think that the aspects of liminality, quest, archetypes and a link to the past are specifically the components that fantasy draws from traditional fairy tales. The study of structural anthropology has shown that traditional stories represent the universal initiation rite, growing up to fulfil one's human potential. As you say, other forms of literature use these elements too, but it seems that fantasy is the genre that uses them consciously and tries to find new meanings in them.
When I studied comparative mythology, I enjoyed reading about anthropological approaches to the stories, which, as you say, linked the stories to rituals and rites of passage. I agree that fantasy draws from this same well, often in conscious imitation of folktales and myths. Thanks so much for your input, Igor!
Your videos are so relaxing my friend, love the content
I’m happy you enjoy them, Jonathon!
Yeah a list. Makes it easier to respond to. As you were going through them I was thinking how easily they can be applied to sci fi. For example change dragons for cybernetically enhanced being or alien. There are also several examples of how a scientific mishap gave rise to 'magic'. Mark Lawrence thrives on this.
Perhaps the only real difference between the two is that in fantasy it simply isn't or can't be. In sci fi, it is a lot of 'maybe'. But maybe getting ahead of potential future videos.
Great, now I am reimagining LotR with Gandaf as a Biship like ship's cyborg, Sauron as AI, ring as computer chip/part of doomsday weapon....
That's very true about Mark Lawrence, and there's something I love about authors like him and Stephen King when they completely obliterate genre boundaries. Cheers, Eric!
I actually place Science Fiction as a subgenre of the overall genre we call Fantasy. I go into it in another comment on this video.
I completely agree with you about maps. In fact this doesn’t just apply to fantasy. So many books, non-fiction especially but also some fiction, would be a much better reading experience if there were relevant maps.
Yes! I propose that we form the Society Promoting Accompanying Maps, or SPAM! Hang on . . . We might need a better name. 😁 Seriously, though, I completely agree with you that maps add so much to the reading experience. Cheers!
My interpretation of “Please don’t watch it” means You absolutely have to do it.
The suspension of disbelief by itself would be an element of fantasy from a readers perspective.
The realization of imagined wonder. You have a way with the right context and the right words.
I would love to watch you and A.P discuss this further.
Thank you, Epic! I have a few that no matter who discusses the definition of fantasy, we’ll never arrive at an entirely satisfactory conclusion. But it’s still fun to try! 😁
I always have a hard time getting to the particulars when it comes to defining a genre. It’s hard, or maybe impossible, because someone will disagree, so I don’t even try most of the time. It’s like arguing religion or politics with someone: it’s hard to define even the base. For example, I made a video on what Sword & Sorcery is, which is of course a sub-genre. I kept it very short because I could go on and on and on and it could get really confusing and become a debate. I didn’t even bother to define what fantasy was, I just skipped ahead to the sub-genre.
Anyway, this is a nice list, and was fun to listen to! The only thing I know, is that I know nothing ;).
Everything you say is true, Liam, including how little we know, and yet I can't resist the temptation to discuss topics like this. In fact, I didn't really offer a definition of fantasy so much as mention some things we recognize it by, and I think that's as close as we can come to a "definition."
You're right--it's a question that we fans should be asking ourselves periodically as time passes. I know my sense of what defines the term/genre has evolved. Regarding the Looming Past, and the fact that it's so often portrayed as a lost era of greater wonder, with something apocalyptical between the story's present and that looming past--I was so enamored of this circumstance that it sent me to the starting-point for my entire body of work. I surmised that, in an alt-mediaeval setting (European), so often the "apocalypse" is the fall of Rome. I then heard about Alaric (the Gothic chieftain) marching on, and besieging, Rome to demand payment for fighting as federati. And that he only sacked the city (famously the first to do so) when said payment was still not forthcoming. The combination of these two massive chunks of metaphoric flint struck the spark that ignited my pursuit. The underlying question being, who's really a barbarian, and why? So I suppose thinking about what defines fantasy, and the origins of those questions, is a fine place to start one's storytelling journey.
As to naming an epic fantasy with almost no magic, I've got an inside tip that there's one coming down the pike this September. Thanks for always getting me thinking, Philip. Videos like this are my favorite type of bookish content. Great for starting my day.
Thanks for the insights, Vaughn! Like you, I have always found the Looming Past a most attractive lure. I'm intrigued about the magically minimalistic fantasy coming out in September. If it's a self-published or indie press book, it might be something I could read and review for Indie August, assuming I could get an ARC.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks! Great minds, right? ;)
Regarding the self-pub minimal fantasy, my inside sources indicate this is very much possible for Indie August, with the very slight (and very sad, since I'm pretty sure it's going to be very cool) caveat that it would be sans the final cover, being painted by the wonderfully talented John Anthony Di Giovanni. I know the debut author would GREATLY appreciate such a gesture. If you're open to it, I'll stay in close touch on the issue. Thanks again!
@@vaughnroycroft999 Excellent! You know where to find me!
Well, maybe there is not one essential element required from this list for a story to be fantasy, but certainly you need some of them. If you take out magic, medieval settings, the quest, strange creatures, maps, etc, you will end up with a Hemingway story or something. Great video and interesting discussion.
Thank you, Carlos!
Excellent lecture! You could use this video for an introductory course on fantasy literature 😊
Thank you! I might just do that!
Fantastic video!
I've been thinking about language in Fantasy a lot lately.
Over the last ten years or so, about 95% of the books I've read have been in English. Mainly because there just isn't the same kind of cornucopia of SF/F literature in Finnish, and I prefer to read books in their original language if at all possible. Lately though I've been dabbling in Finnish language literature again, both originally written in Finnish and translated works, most recently I finished LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea (translated to Finnish by Kristiina Rikman), which I listened all the way through yesterday. And it was magnificent. I've used this phrase a couple times now since finishing it: "The Finnish language as a whole exists for two purposes. Poetry, and stories that include (or should include) the word 'tale' in the title", and Wizard of Earthsea was both".
There's a line early on in the book, which I imagine originally was "The bandit lit the house of fire" or something to to that effect. Simple, straight to the point. Utilitarian. It's a simple thing, no need to make it sound pretty.
In Finnish that line was "Roisto tuikkasi talon tuleen". I would use the same exact words to describe that sentence, with one addition. Poetic. The words are even in the same order, which doesn't always happen when translating between Finnish and English.
Not quite sure where I'm going with this yet. Might have to sit on it a bit longer. And drink more coffee.
Very cool! I don’t know Finnish, but the little I know about it fascinates me. I’m aware that Finnish had a literary revival of a sort in the 19th century - sort of like what happened with English in the 14th century after several hundred years of being mostly a spoken language (in the case of English, the dominant, “upper class” language was French, brought by the Normans). Perhaps this revival and the language’s close association with Finnish national identity account for the poetic nature of the language? Pure speculation on my part, of course.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think you're absolutely on the right lines. The big three Lönnrot, Runeberg and Leino are definitely still affecting the language for one. All of whom have been translated by Bosely, our favourite translating Knight, as it happens.
I did just finish a modern horror novel by Johanna Sinisalo, Vieraat (translates to Strangers or Visitors), and it definitely feels like this isn't the genre for the language. It's difficult to convey horror effectively in the prose, when much of the language is more concerned with softness and beauty. Even the word for horror is quite delicate. Kauhu.
I'll be picking up something else by her quite soon again. Probably Ennen Päivänlaskua Ei Voi (released as Troll: A Love Story in the US). It won the Finlandia prize (pretty much our version of Man Booker) in 2000, Best Fantasy Novel from the Finnish Tolkien Society, and the John Triptree Jr. Award in 2004 for works of science fiction or fantasy that expand or explore our understanding of gender.
That was such an interesting topic! I recently read the two first books in a self-published fantasy series called The Pillars of Peace (by Tom Dumbrell) and was actually surprised that there was no magic, except the mention of a supposedly magical mirror the main character gives his sister and the mention of a man having had a witch for a mother, but no magic per say is in action in the story. But the elements this world do have is a map as it's a made-up world (though heavily based on our world in what's now England), it's definitely set in an obscure middle-age where kings and queens ruled their kingdoms (with a mix of English-sounding and French-sounding names - though some have Latin or Hebrew roots), and there are definitely archetypes (the hero, the mentor, the traitor, etc.). So in that sense it does have some of the elements you mentioned.
I think what usually defines fantasy - even subgenres like magical realism - is the incorporation of supernatural elements, explained or not. I read this year The Metamorphosis by Kafka and just the fact that our main character wakes up and realizes he's now an insect was already fantastical to me despite the fact that Kafka clearly wanted that transformation to symbolize abuse and neglect, which explains the weird reactions of the main character's family to this situation. And even before reading classical and epic Fantasy, I read many classics with fantastical elements where I had to suspend my disbelief and actually read between the lines to fully enjoy my reading experience. That was the case with Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, Frankenstein (though it's considered sci-fi, it read like fantasy to me because the means used to create the Monster weren't explained and the creature was actually superhuman), Edgar Allan Poe's short stories, etc. I'm not sure why we don't classify them as Fantasy (or magical realism?), they all have unexplained supernatural elements that contribute to discuss greater themes. That's why I came back to the Fantasy you describe in this video (with all or most of its main aspects), because I found that it's the perfect genre to explore the depths of humanity and the complexity of our inner and outer world. And I can't help loving that sense of wonder you talked about. 👌
Beautifully said! Fantasy is indeed “the perfect genre to explore the depths of humanity and the complexity of our inner and outer world.” The Metamorphosis is a story I teach every semester, and it conveys such important truths about modern life. Thanks for the fantastic comment!
I have thoughts on this! Now that it is past noon I will get a beer and ramble, just need to find a shirt to give a semblance of respectability...
Excellent! I look forward to the ramblings and will be checking my notifications on TH-cam!
Happy reading to you! 🦋🎬🎥
Happy reading to you too, Safina!
Is that a sneak peek at the map of your book, Philip? 😄
A fantasy that doesn't have magic can be found in several books by KJ Parker - for instance the Engineer trilogy. Although some of his books do have supernatural elements, many are stories set in a secondary world very much like ours. No magic, strange creatures or iirc maps to be found (though I still highly recommend them 😂)
Okay, because of your recommendations, Rob, I’ll read KJ Parker’s books even if they’re mapless. Also, that’s a perceptive question from you! Yes, that is indeed a little corner of the map I made for my trilogy! 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
Ha! I thought it looked suspiciously unfamiliar 😆 Very cool idea!
Just checked, indeed no maps in the Engineer. But, even as a fellow map-lover, I didn't miss them much. Travel between locales is minimal, descriptions are detailed and vivid when needed.
I've only now gotten around to watching the video, but: *Gormenghast* is phenomenal fantasy without any magic! And it's fantastic in so many other ways as well- the prose is probably the best I've read, within or without fantasy; the atmosphere is supreme; the characters are phenomenal Dickensian realistic archetypes
Thank you, Euan! Gormenghast is definitely the most highly recommended example I’ve seen of fantasy with no magic. I hope to cover it on the channel someday. Cheers!
I'd like to see an E=mc2 type of answer when you two give an end to this topic. Just on a side note I love your friendship... uhh... rivalry
We could be the Einsteins of fantasy! 😁 Let’s see what the Nemesis thinks.
On fantasy books without magic: three come to my mind immediately. Tonke Dragt's "The Letter for the King" and its sequel "The Secrets of the Wild Wood" are chivalric romances set in a secondary world (map included!). Erich Kästner's "The 35th of May" is a portal fantasy, but the worlds Konrad and his uncle travel through are not magical per se, and even contain some sci-fi elements. The book does contain a talking, rollerblading horse, though. So maybe there is some magic there.
Incidently, all are childrens' books.
As long as there are maps, we’re good. 😁 Thanks for those titles, Gerd. I knew folks would come through on that request!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Netflix turned Dragt's first book into a series. I only watched the first episode and it was terrible. They managed to strip all the sense of wonder from the story. Which is a shame, since I loved the books when I was a kid.
Luckily, noone has tried to turn Kästner's book into a film (and likely never will, since its english edition has been out of print since 1932. The premise would not work today anyway).
Hey Philip. A good video👍 Fantasy is for me my imagination and what I read and see😂
Thank you so much!
Richard Adams' fantasy novels of the Beklan Empire, "Shardik" and "Maia" have neither magic nor mythical creatures. Both novels do have maps though. "Maia" is still one of my favorite fantasy novels, and one of my favorite novels period.
Thank goodness they have maps! 😁 Many people count his Watership Down as fantasy too, and though it’s been many years since I read it, I don’t recall there being magic.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy No magic but the rabbits had their own mythology with Lord Frith and the Black Rabbit of Inlé and also heroic tales with El-ahrairah.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Watership down doesn’t have active magic, but there are quasi-magical elements. The novel begins with Fiver having a vision of the future. This occurs more than once - he is a “seer” of sorts. The main bad guy at the end disappears, and there are suggestions that he is somehow supernatural. And when Hazel dies at the very end, he is greeted by the Black Rabbit, who escorts him to rabbit afterlife. It’s definitely a fantasy novel (and epic fantasy), and I think it’s fair to say that it’s basically non magical.
@Philip Chase Fantasy with no magic (technically) - Seth Dickinson's Baru Comorant series
Thanks, Keith!
You are lawful good with your passion for maps! And then there is me, chaotic evil fantasy reader, who skips maps.
Skipping maps?!!! 😱 What kind of disturbed person does that?! 😁 Just kidding, of course. I’m probably just a wee bit anal when it comes to maps.
I have seen this discussion for horror which frankly has even less of a concrete definition and i tend to go as broad as possible for all genre fiction.
As a Stephen King fan, what i find interesting is your definition very much applies to It, one of my favourite books.
Minor Spoilers
The Losers club can certainly fall into the chosen ones and Pennywise is an ancient evil that threatens the world.
Pennywise's history is very much the mysterious past being visited on the present. Same can be said for a lot of horror from Lovecraft and Gothic horror.
There is magic in it and its very much based on the characters ability to retain their childlike imagination and wonder about the world. Imagination is both Pennywise's weapon against Derry and The Losers Clubs source of power and defense from Pennywise.
No maps though.
No maps! Disqualified! Just kidding, of course. What you're pointing out is absolutely true, and it's actually one of the cool things about speculative fiction that the boundaries between the various genres are so blurry. I love Stephen King for doing his thing.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy my introduction to horror, sf and fantasy were collections of weird fiction short stories from the pulp and Weird Tales times so i have always felt at home with stories that blend genres.
@@cmmosher8035 An excellent path to take!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy lol. Super cheap collections of public domain literature have their advantage.
Haha. I used to tell people that if a book has a map in the front, it's probably something I would read. I don't know how to specifically define fantasy, but I know it when I read it. I do like what you said about the suspension of disbelief. A lot of the things you mention also apply to sci-fi, but I think sci-fi books try to justify the fantastic with technology.
I love that philosophy about maps! That’s true about these things applying to other genres. It’s really a lot like poetry. You can have metaphors and even rhyming in prose, but would that make it poetry? In the end, fantasy might elude definition.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think it does.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Pst, while we're amongst ourselves here and the nemesis can't hear us: it might be much more fruitful to define fantasy by it's function than just with a descriptive approach. Like Donaldson with his literature of reintegration which we might just boldy claim as one of it's functions. I think that guy was on to something hot there. Thank me later when the fireballs are sizzling past you.😁
@@brush2canvas849 I’ll thank you now and spare a thought when the fireballs are sizzling by!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Whatever works for you. Might want to bring some extra tweed to those discussions.😁
I have a feeling that some of these elements are more important than others in defining fantasy. The most important one seems to me to be magic. And if there is no magic, then at least the story is set in a world different from ours. Maybe, as long as either of these two elements are present, then it is fantasy. And that might be all that is needed to define it. The other elements you mention are frequently present and therefore they exist in association with the genre, but I think are in lower places in a hierarchy of what is necessary as a minimum for a story to be fantasy.
I think I agree with you, Jeroen. Let’s imagine it this way: What works of fiction that contain magic are NOT fantasy? For any of the other elements, I can easily come up examples. For magic, it gets harder. I’m not prepared to say magic is essential to fantasy, but it might be the most important, followed perhaps by other worlds.
The way I’ve been defining it in my head is something along these lines:
Magical elements explained in-world through arcane or supernatural means. This distinguishes something like Star Trek, where the power elements are explained through science. Dune is still halfway between; I’m inclined to say it’s something like Sci-Fantasy, than either or.
But I’m sure there are problems with this definition too. Under it, almost all supernatural horror is part of the fantasy genre. Which, personally, I’m okay with-I love horror.
That’s a cool definition, and even if it wouldn’t win universal agreement, I think it gives us some great insights into the genre. Thanks!
Guess I'll weigh in on this one - I'll pretend that it's a warmup to dissertation work today :)
I've found Brian Attebery's approach to this issue (in ch 1 of Strategies of Fantasy) the most useful. Taking a cue from Northrop Frye, Attebery suggests that there are three ways to approach the question of describing/defining what we call "fantasy". There is the formula (this is what gets copies by Tolkien clones and the sort), which export the narrative structures, character functions, etc. of texts that are unquestionably "fantasy" - it has magic, and/or dragons, and/or a medieval motif, etc. and so it must be fantasy.
There is the mode, which refers to the broadest notion, namely the injection of the unquestionably unreal, such as magic, or alternate history, or the world-generating that happens in Borges's "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" (which I feel should be required reading by all aspiring fantasy authors...). This can encompass just about everything with a hint of the supernatural, from Gilgamesh to Homer to Dante to Tolkien to John Barth's Chimera and Colson Whitehead's Underground Railroad and beyond.
The third approach is genre, which is a narrative strategy for storytelling that uses motifs, archetypes, myths, recognizable narrative structures, and so forth and brings them to the diegetic level. For instance, according to James Joyce's own outline, the "Circe" chapter of Ulysses (the heralded titan of mimetic fiction) is an exploration of the art of "magic," though the chapter takes place in both a brothel and the streets of Dublin and is constituted of surreal interactions, suggesting hallucination or maybe dreams. The fantasy genre, according to Attebery, would challenge the surrealism and make it literally manifest within the story.
Importantly, Attebery argues that it's best to approach questions of genre through the mathematical concept called a "fuzzy set," meaning we develop these definitions from the common, overlapping aspects derived from the relationships between texts. (Which, in fairness, is pretty much what you do in this video, Philip.)
I also think that bound up in all of this is an aspect of narrative discourse. For instance, Dune is pretty overtly science fiction. Yet the novel's discourse, by which I mean the narrative assumptions which underpin the text and give it its internal ontological logic seems more fantastical, which elements of prophecy and human will pushing upon and against sociological forces of historical development. Though these elements get deconstructed and interrogated by the book, it can be argued that the overall discourse is still more akin to the mythic material of fantasy. (This gets even more intricate and difficult in texts like Book of the New Sun...)
But, of course, there is no way to fully arrest the essence of a genre. At the very least, the moment we assert a clear definition that does encapsulate all that we might readily term "fantasy," some intrepid author will come along and write something just to screw it all up :)
Also, for the issue of magic/non-magic fantasy, I know some people have already mentioned Gormenghast (which I'll be reading this summer, finally!). There is also Ellen Kushner's Riverside novels. K. J. Parker's Engineer trilogy, I'm told, does not have magic. Naomi Novik's Temeraire books do not have magic, though they do have dragons; I believe the same goes for Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw. Doubtless there are others, though I don't know them off the top of my head.
Thank you, Paul! What an excellent dissertation warmup! Ultimately, I have to agree with you that “there is no way to arrest the essence of a genre,” which is why it’s so much fun to try. While pinning down fantasy matches the futility of Monty Python’s quest for the Holy Grail, there’s the persistent temptation to try. Perhaps this is because we (especially academics, but really everyone) have a tendency to categorize in order to confer the illusion that we’ve mastered something. Also, genre distinctions are useful to some degree in helping people find the sorts of stories they like (or, more cynically put, in helping marketers find their customers). Anyway, I can’t resist thinking about what makes up fantasy beyond “I know it when I see it.” Thanks for your input - I had a lot of fun reading it!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Glad you enjoyed what started as a warmup…and totally didn’t turn into a distraction. Obviously, no PhD candidate has ever wanted to avoid writing their dissertation. Why do you ask?
I totally agree that it’s fun to tease out genre definitions. It’s why my dissertation (that I’m totally not avoiding!) is an attempt to tease out a poetics of alternate history fantasy fiction. It’s just cool to talk about :)
@@paulwilliams6913 Sounds like an awesome project!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy thanks! I think so, too :)
I’ve read 2 fantasy series that had no magic in them and I hated both of them. One was the Dwarves quartet and the other one was written by an author who I’m sure had the first name of Brian but, I can’t recall his last name. I hated that series because everybody died. I gave both sets of books to my local library (let someone else suffer). And smooth segue, Terry, but you are going to love the Curse of the Mistwraith-because-portals!
I love smooth segues, and I suspect you're also right that I'm going to love The Curse of the Mistwraith. Note as well that I came out swinging for maps. Cheers, Terry!
I was not suggesting that maps are necessary by any means. Let me tell you about my experience with the war of light and shadows…
I had to photocopy that map and then enlarge it as much as I could just to be able to read it. And I was much younger than you when I started that series! In fact, I had to wait for years until photocopiers were able to enlarge prints. Of course, my eyesight has always been rude word. 🔬
I hate that we have to put everything into categories. If it worked for you and you liked it is really the only metric you need. What works for you, someone else will read and totally hate it. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. At the beginning you were talking about poetry, which always make me think of Robin Williams from Dead Poet's Society and his explanation about rating poetry. Hogwash! Did it inspire you is the only question needed?
I love Dead Poet’s Society - Robin Williams at his best!
Yeah that movie shows the absurdity of 'scoring' poems. It's hilarious when he tells the lazy student he's written the first poem to earn a negative score on the Pritchard Scale.
There is no magic in The Traitor Baru Cormorant by Seth Dickinson. Also, everything by K.J. Parker.
Thank you for the examples, Daniel!
Quite simply, fantasy is escapism in an alternate reality ( with maps ! )
Yes! With maps! Do you hear that, Nemesis? 😁 Cheers, DJ!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Glad to be of assistance ;)
@@djsuth7727 I need all the help I can get!
I love the maps
That’s because you have excellent taste!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyI dont judge books by their covers anymore, I judge books by how much of a ripoff their maps are to Tolkiens ;)
I think something like Doctor Who is an interesting example of what could be considered fantasy - on the surface it's often seen as sci-fi however the series isn't really interested in any sort of technological realism, and things like the TARDIS are treated as magical in a sense. The Doctor/TARDIS acts as a portal for the companions
I have sometimes seen it referred to as sci-fantasy, due to its space-faring trappings. I think that really just goes to show how aesthetics play into our conception of genre as much as any concrete plot elements. Then again I think sci-fi is really just another side of the same coin as fantasy personally. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, after all
Excellent points! I agree that much of it has to do with presentation and aesthetics. For example, is anything set in space in the future science fiction? Some people seem to think so, but a lot of stories, like Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Dune, blur the genre boundaries. Cheers!
Aren't all those things you mentioned previously also archetypes?
I don’t think you would call them archetypes under the stricter definitions of “archetype,” but I can see your point. The idea of the deep past reverberating in the present, for example, is sort of a pattern. I’m not sure magic could be classified as an archetype, but certain ways in which it’s used come close to archetypal patterns (like ancient words being magical). Great point!
Fantasy without magic: TOWER OF BABEL! (sorry, this series somehow always makes me want to yell 😊). It also has no made-up creatures. It does have technically made creatures, which is something different. So, it might be more sciencefiction, but it FEELS like fantasy. If that makes sence...
Awesome! I’ll be reading The Books of Babel soon, so this has me even more excited for it. Thanks!
✨✨💜💜
Thank you so much!
Pokemon doesn't have magic as far as I'm aware, just magical creatures. Also the manga Kingdom has basically no magic, but it has characters who are unrealistically large and strong or unrealistically fast. It's more just extremely exaggerated then magical. I think most people would consider it fantasy, though there's room for debate.
Cool examples! I’m inclined to include them under the broader fantasy umbrella, for sure.
I am no academic, and this seems like a very academic topic to discuss. Not being an academic comes with disadvantages, mainly not having all your knowledge, but with advantages as well. Like having a mind that hasn't been molded into shape in a certain form, which offers the liberty of accepting certain notions with more ease and to be able to see things from a different perspective.
For one, I always thought of the made up characters as being an element of magic. Because if there is no magic, or at least some form of supernatural at work, then you have no made up creatures, be they dragons, dwarves or vampires. Their very existence betrays the existence of magic. You could have magic without the creatures, although that would be difficult and probably boring, but you can't have creatures without magic.
As far as genres are considered, I always saw myth and folk tales as being a sub part of the greater genre of fantasy, since they deal with pretty much the same stuff. That's unless you want to define fantasy as anything that is the product of an author's imagination, in which case all of literature would fall under that banner (which, of course, is not what is discussed here).
As for certain elements that are specific, I believe that fantasy without magic isn't quite fantasy. There must be at least a little bit of it. Just like, for me, poetry must have at least rhyme in order to be poetry. This is my own, personal point of view, and I can't stress enough on personal. To me, poetry has always been the love child of music and literature. The use of words is what poetry takes from literature. Rhyme and rhythm is what it takes from music. You could dispense with meter and rhythm if you wanted. In the end, if you keep the rhyme, the melodicity of it will enforce a certain flow that comes with its own rhythm, even if it's not a well defined one. But rhyme is as necessary to poetry as magic is necessary to fantasy. Again, my own, personal belief.
Great to hear your response here, Claudia! I do think that magic is the most important of the elements, but I don’t think it’s essential. Elsewhere, people are mentioning a few staples of fantasy that lack magic, like Gormenghast. As for poetry, I believe it was Robert Frost who said that poetry without meter is like playing tennis without a net. For you, it’s rhyme, but as you said, it’s a personal preference, and I teach many poems that lack meter and rhyme. I suppose it’s impossible to pin these things down, but I enjoy the occasional effort at doing so. It’s always fantastic to read your comments - thank you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I suppose that depends on how you choose to define them. My younger self, who was a lot more cutting than the mellow person I am today used to call those poems prose on half rows :D They sound beautiful and they are steeped in metaphors but they would sound the same if you lined them up in a proper sentence like books are written. Poems that have meter and rhyme would sound like poetry even if you don't write them one lyric at a time.
@@claudiaiovanovici7569 Prose on half rows - very nice! I might use that at some point. 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It feels nice to know you appreciate it enough to use it! :D
I have produced a video defining fantasy. The title is as follows: "Fantasy is Making Stuff Up." My video is very short. In it I say "Fantasy is making stuff up." You'll probably want to watch it.
Sounds fantastic! Possibly Oscar worthy! Probably it will transform the genre! 😁
Always loving the dialogue between your channel and A Critical Dragon. Would be intrigued to hear your response to Storied's take on Magical Realism and whether you think the distinction made from fantasy is valid. th-cam.com/video/scgn2BCcht4/w-d-xo.html
Thanks, Steve! I'll check it out. I have responded to a Salman Rusdie essay in which he distinguishes between magical realism and fantasy (to the detriment of fantasy). I can't recall if you've seen that one, but it's called "Why Read Fantasy: a response to Salman Rushdie" -- or something like that.
Alice in Wonderland has no magic. Gulliver’s Travels also has no magic. (Both are portal fantasies). For me, there are only two basic requirements for fantasy: 1) it takes place in a world which is not a possible world (the world contains elements which could not be real); 2) in fantasy, at least some metaphors become actualized.
I almost never look at the maps. I think They are almost always awful.
Thanks, Duffypratt! Some people would exclude both Alice in Wonderland and Gulliver’s Travels from fantasy, but I don’t mind a broad approach. I like your two criteria. About maps, many of them don’t make sense from a geographer’s or a cartographer’s perspective, but then again these are worlds which are not possible worlds. 😁
Any definition of fantasy needs a good splash of ochre!
Also what do you mean, dragons don't exist? Next you tell me that unicorns are not real either. Awful thought!😱
Now that first video that was mentioned that might be fun to watch.😁
Aaaaahh! You torment me! If you do watch that disaster, feel free to laugh. Also, yes, let's add ochre to the elements!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy As I'm completely incapable of tormenting you, I will desist watching that video. And while the looming past is on your list of elements maybe some things should better stay there.😁
Question for the map lover that you are: Would it even be possible to have a fantasy map without ochre?
@@brush2canvas849 Well, that’s certainly an excellent point! Ochre should in all circumstances be encouraged, but I suppose we should leave room for ochre-less fantasy to be as inclusive as possible. Also, thanks for letting the past loom where it belongs! 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy As an artist with a firm believe in the equality of all colours I can only agree. Otherwise no thanks needed, especially as it dawns more and more on me that the very first video is very much a rite of passage.😁
@@brush2canvas849 First videos are indeed a rite of passage. The more awkward and frustrating it is, the better you’ve done at passing the test.
By these definitions, both Ulysses and finnegans wake are fantasy. Interesting to where fantasy is capable of taking itself.
I’m not actually offering a definition here, but rather saying that these are elements that fantasy often (but not always) includes. A lot of people would include Ulysses and Finnegan’s under the fantasy umbrella, though. Cheers!
@Philip Chase Right. I’m half asleep and missing out on words, to top the floppy description, but it’s actually a question I’ve been thinking about a lot over the past few months, what fantasy is, because I wanted to identify the thing that sends me back there (there!) again and again. I think it’s “placing” - in a place (geographically or socially etc. ‘other’), the way it lends itself to setting (who and what are housed in it) and the possibilities of what is left untold. Maybe if you have a firm sense of the untold, you can go into as much detail as you like about some things, and maintain the sense of wonder.
Thanks, Philip, and cheers to you, too!
@@nuritlevy1898 Well said, and I do think that world building is an important aspect of fantasy that is fun to think about.
I refuse to accept Dragons can't exist :P
I’m with you all the way!
Hmm, if you take Clarke's Law into account, doesn't that mean all fantasy is science fiction? 😂
I prefer to say that all science fiction is fantasy, but I'm not at all biased.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy All writing is just the transcription of noise to paper.
👊👊👊
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd I cannot deny it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Well you can try, but it'd just be noise. 😁
Evidently, what is a woman, is also in league of what is fantasy. Let's go Brandon
"A wee bit" ☺️
A very useful expression!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Absolutely!