Is it the Circle of Fourths or the Circle of Fifths?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
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The circle of fifths and the circle of fourth are one and the same. It just depends which one is going up or down, clockwise or counterclockwise. It's simple but can also be pretty confusing, like time zones or quick maths. Hopefully this video will help smooth out any confusion, or at least put you on the path to understanding.
Check out the original Circle of Fifths video here: • Circle of Fifths: Ever...
0:00 - Introduction
1:00 - Review of how the circle is built
1:44 - The part where people get confused
2:33 - The part we agree on and the part we don't
3:36 - How fourths show up on the circle (inversions)
4:36 - It gets worse. The Bizarro Mirror Universe Circle
5:39 - Storytime
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Check out my other videos here:
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How To Get Better By Practicing Less - • Get Better At Music By...
Major Scales - • Major scales: Everythi...
Minor Scales - • Minor Scales - Everyth...
Key Signatures(new) - • Key Signatures: Everyt...
Intervals Part I - • Intervals: Part I - Ha...
Intervals Part II - • Intervals: Part II - T...
Triads - • Triads: Everything You...
Concert Pitch and Transposing Instruments - • What is concert pitch,...
How to Play 3000% Faster - • Play 3000% Faster in J...
3000% Faster Playalong Video - • How To Play 3000% Fast...
Note Naming - • Note Naming: Everythin...
Dynamics - • Dynamics: Everything Y...
Modes - • Musical Modes: Everyth...
Parallel Scales - • Modifying the Major Sc...
Key Signatures(original 2018) - • Key Signatures - Every...
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Take private lessons online with me! Trumpet, brass, theory, composition & arranging, improvisation, or whatever musical/life coaching you’d like to work on. More information at www.bradharrison.ca/lessons
Protect this man at all costs
Thank you for your work, very illuminating. As a guitarist this really helped the concept of 4ths & 5ths as being inversions of each other click (which I observed across the fretboard, but didn't have fully sink in.)
The more I delve into music theory, the more 'Non-Dualist' it seems.
Haha. Thanks!! And glad to hear this helped connect some dots for you.
I was really confused but you've cleared all my doubts today... Thanks so much Sir❤
One simple sentence helped me understand.... "It depends on where you're going" whether it's up or down. Now I get it. Thx a million.
Thanks for the equally confusing explanation of this circle-jerk concept
@Cantbuyathrill are you still mixed up or you got it now?
Cantbu I think you're right. This insistence that it's not really circle of fourths, counter clockwise...it seems like semantics and would be extremely confusing and actually seems like needless confusion, a needless argument.
What do you mean? If you go down from C to G that is a fourth. That is counter clockwise. If you go up from C to G that is a fifth. That is clockwise. Sure, we could twist it around to make it look else-wise. But please share your insight.
Thanks for elaborating. I thought it prudent to add my remark on your previous Circle of Fifths video and you have explained very clearly how the Circle of Fifths is also the Circle of Fourths.
I started out on my piano (and Music Theory) journey about 4 months ago, and found many helpful videos out there. However, "your" videos are, in my opinion, and "for me", the best videos in existence..period.
From the "educational aspect" to the excellent video production and "clever and intuitive use of graphics" to easily explain and visually model ideas and concepts, your ability to explain complex ideas in comprehensive and logical ways is truly remarkable! And all done with a great sense of humor overall.
I have learned so much so quickly, and guided by your insight, my piano playing and music theory understanding have improved immensely.
I have recommended your channel to numerous people, and will continue to do so.
Thank you again for bringing intelligent and truly valuable educational content to the masses.
Thank you!!!
Thanks so much!! I really appreciate the kind words, support, and feedback. Have a fantastic day!
I was wondering about the fourths in the other video, but this explanation makes perfect sense. Thanks mate!
I am mind blown with your video editing skills bro. Big fan of your work.❤❤
Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks!!
Indeed.
Same
Thank you! I've been a musician for decades, with passing familiarity with the Circle of Fifths, and some of its uses. I recently started an online theory course which used the bizarro Circle of Fourths, and I felt like my head was exploding, and that maybe I'd dreamed the whole Circle of Fifths lessons from High School band. This straightened me right out.
2:21 The Dunning-Kruger effect at its best.
Clear and elegant explanation and visualization -- thank you!
Thank you so much. I've found it difficult in the past to understand the fourths vs fifths on this circle and you've clarified it wonderfully. Great video.
Thanks so much for finally clearing this up for me
Is Like going from Florida to California going West or Florida to California going East.
Pretty much! But when traveling, one makes way more sense than the other as far as travel time and fuel cost. In music, we don’t always take the shortest route.
None of this can be disputed; it's integral to basic tonal theory. I wonder, however, what practical implications it actually has for someone composing or performing. I am self-taught and discovered these relationships by tinkling around on the piano from the age of 4, therefore, in a sense they're as natural and embedded in the music consciousness as gravity is to physics. Twelve-tone composition epitomised in Schoenberg's theories, drives a horse and cart through this neat paradigm and opens a door to all manner of tonal possibilities. It destroys the hierarchy of traditional tonality, which possibly why it lacks popular appeal and even in the 21st century is relegated to a position of historical curiosity for the intellectually inclined. As Stravinsky, I think, once remarked by way of endorsing the traditional tonal status quo: There still plenty to be written in C major.
@@BradHarrisonWow!
Outstanding explanation....as always, an amazingly enlightening and well created lesson
Thank You For The Amazing Tutorials And The Cleanest And Finest Edits.
Gettem' right!
Edit: Short, sweet, and to the point. This is exactly why I'm Subscribed, you legend.
Great! I’m planning on a mix of longer and shorter videos going forward, and a mix of theory, practice tips, and other stuff that’s just really interesting to me that I want to share.
@@BradHarrison Say less, I dig it. What is your next video, and when does it drop?
Actually, I think it will be my 100k subscriber special. ;-) Planning to do a non music video, a productivity tip(and I’m thinking a list of future topics for videos will be included). It will probably be in a few weeks. Also looking at “How Much Should I Practice” as a September release.
@@BradHarrison Honestly, both of those are great ideas. That "How much should I practice?" is important and definitely a good topic to cover.
Thanks! I think they’re good topics(glad you do too), and I hope the audience enjoys them too.
You have saved my sanity. Thank you!
I was in the Wild yesterday and came across that other version of the Circle. I didn't know which way was down a fifth or up a fourth, since you said going clock-wise or counter-clockwise.
Rats, I was out of luck. I have a digital watch.
The modern world strikes again! We have memes on our wrist now, but at what cost?
legend says this "circle" is just a dodecagon
The dodecagon of a fifths. I like it. Sounds like a relic from an Indiana Jones movie.
Great video! Thanks for the help!
Great explanation. Thank you.
Subscribed. That was a great explanation. Thank you.
5:56
Perfect!
It's all clear.. Brad thank you.
Great explanation.....so easy. Makes great sense to.me.Thank you🎉
Thanks you! Helpful!
"You may see either one in the wild ." 😂
A concise explanation.
Thnx for clearing my confusion on this topic
You explained this well, cause I couldn't get my head around it. C ➡️ G is a fifth C,D,E,F,G (1,2,3,4,5) but G ➡️ C is a fourth G,A,B,C (1,2,3,4) Someone is gonna say I'm wrong but that's how I make sense of it.
You've not wrong. C to G is up a fifth, but if you turn right back around and go *down* from G to C, the same fifth you just went up, it's a fifth down.
Like you said, G *up* to C is a fourth. Direction matters. The circle is both fourths and fifths both directions, but whether you're going up or down a fourth or fifth changes. Hope that helps!
Thanks man very helpful
Thank you so much ❤️
Hahaha. This does actually make sense. If I'd not already had SOME familiarity I'd have probably been lost but what you say makes sense (I'm a guitar player btw but looking at the piano example makes it click)
thank u Sir ...i needed this info ...now i know ...
Very well explained ... and funny too!
Glad you liked it!
That is leterally an exclusive explaination usually untaught. Because we have assumed it as p4 in counterclockwise measuring the note 4th next to the root note from which we're measuring... Which actually breaks the rule of the circle which is in 5ths. This video explains perfectly how the circle is of 5ths actually and not 4ths. Yet for convenience (to remember) you can say C to F is 4th ( which actually is when going up) but not according to the circle of 5ths, where we're going up F to C and not C to F...
You're videos are awesome. I love this series.
Thanks!
thank you very very very much, you help me a lot
Man you are a life saver
Thank you!
Il est trop fort dans ses explications 🤙🤙
i love your videos!!!
Thanks!
GREAT VIDEO!
for beginners it's worth noting that 5 notes up are based on the pattern WHOLE WHOLE HALF WHOLE WHOLE WHOLE HALF or TONE TONE SEMITONE TONE TONE TONE SEMITONE as counting 5 white keys from B and after doesn't work out to be 5.
Absolutely! Anyone new to this stuff should review my videos on major scales and intervals, and of course my main video on the circle of fifths. The video above will be pretty mystifying if you don’t know those topics already.
I'm a retired US Military Combat Pilot. Huge favor request here. I am very computer savvy, I have a Masters in Computer Information Systems and Systems Engineer plus an Apple technical Guru. May I ask what application/program you use in making your graphics? I am a self-taught keyboard player and never learned to read sheet music (it's never too late) I also play guitar (since 1967) and Do read guitar tablature. By the way thank U for your lessons.
It’s a combo of Sibelius and Keynote. Nothing too fancy!
I don't understand why you had to list all your credentials just to ask your question.
I'm naming my next band Salt Pucks.
Muito obrigada! Finalmente entendi o círculo de 5ª e de 4ª, e nem sequer falaste em português! 😉
i mean there's still an issue you don't address, which is the change of bass movement in harmonic progressions. There's a tendency for clocks to move clockwise. This leads folks to read the circle of fifths chart clockwise. And, this is also the direction that pedagogy books introduce key signatures for scales/arpeggios/etudes, so you add sharp and subtract a flat as you go forward/clockwise. However, in jazz and classical music (perhaps to a lesser extent since the context is more restricted to cadences) the more usual harmonic motion of dominant to tonic moves by fourth up/fifth down, which is counterclockwise on the cycle of fifths chart. I feel like it's good to point this out. And, I feel like all these pedagogical stuff should also move counterclockwise. It would help folks relate the harmonic motion to cycle of fifths.
Giant Steps sounding at the end hehe
It’s just chords around the circle
That’s right. It’s from the demonstration of chords around the circle that I did in the first video. But Giant Steps is a whole bunch of fast ii-Vs so it does have a similar sound!
also depends if you count the one you go from: c-g:defg is 4, but cdefg is 5
In music, in intervals, you count inclusive of the bottom note. C to G is a fifth. CDEFG. You count them all.
Well, if going clockwise is ascending pitch, than it's fifths. C to G (up) is a fifth.
If going clockwise is descending pitch, than it's a fourth. C to G (down) is a fouth.
"C to G", by itself, without specifying if it's up or down, specify no interval.
I think where people get confused is with chord inversions, and how they relate to intervals.
Intervals are sizes, or distances, expressed in semitones. Semitones tho aren't distances between frequencies on a linear scale, but on a logaritmic scale. Which makes the direction you're moving important.
To simplify, think octaves (which are intervals). Going up 1 octave or down 1 octaves is the same distance when espressed as intervals, but it's double the distance up than it's down. From 440 Hz you travel 440 Hz up to get to 880 Hz (1 octave up) or down 220 Hz to get to 220 Hz (1 octave down).
So, from 440Hz, moving one entire octave means two different things if it's up or down. It's not the same distance.
The same applies for all other intervals. Going one perfect fifth up is not the same distance as going one perfect fifth down.
The interval structure of the major chord - in intervals - is a major third and a perfect fifth from the root. But it has a completely different structure is its 2nd inversion, from the lower note it's a perfect forth and an augmented fifth. It sounds close to the standard chord because the relationship between notes, that is frequencies, NOT because of the intervals.
TL;DR: intervals are distances measured on a logarithmic scale, notes are frequencies. You can't mix and match those that easily. Moving up and down on the logaritmic scale is not then same as moving up and down on the linear scale.
I fail to see why going one perfect 5th up is not the same as going one perfect 5th down, which you assert. A perfect 5th is a perfect 5th, whichever way you look at it. Am I missing something here? I've written 7 symphonies, an opera, 9 instrumental concertos, songs, liturgical music, chamber music and more and would seriously concerned to discover that a perfect 5th didn't have the tonal street cred' that I'd always seen as a bedrock of western music.
nice
My older brother taught me my circle of 5th with: Fat Cat Got Drunk At East Brighton and Bob Enjoys A Darn Good CrayFish! 😂 Tbf it worked for me haha
Love it.
Subscribinggggg
i can't unsee circle of filth now
I'm on the verge of grasping it but not quite. One thing that puzzles me is does onbe use the chromatic scale or a key's scale to fcount out the 5 semitones in a 4th, or the 7 semitones in a 5th.
The other thing I can't grasp is the directional arrows.
I think it is the up and down thing that's got me baffled. If you could say you are going UP from C to F that might help. But maybe you don't mean "DOWN" literally as one moves counterclockwise.
How can those arrows both be pointing in the SAME direction but indicating two different things 4ths or 5ths.
C to F is up a fourth right? like your circle shows
How can the rotational arrows be pointing in the same direction and indicate two different things?
How can C to F be DOWN a fifth with the directional arrow pointing the same direction
as the arrow for 4ths???
It's those arrows throwing me off I think.
Can you dumb it down for me.
Can you go through whatever scale notes you use to arrive at the right conclusions?
Seems to me that the right side of your circle would logically show the counterclockwise DOWN-pointing arrow as "UP for 4ths" (C to F) or "ahead for 4ths"
and the lower arrow pointing upward for 5ths (like F to C)
Just don't get how C to F could be DOWN a fifth.
But maybe the arrows don't mean DOWN in terms of top and bottom at all.
Thanks,
Cliff
You have to remember there’s more than one C and F in music. You can go up or down to either.
Start on F, you’re in F major. Go up a fifth. (F G A Bb C). You went from F to C, up a fifth.
Now go the other direction, back the way you came. You’re on C, go down a fifth, in C major. C B A G F. You went from C to F down a fifth. (And it works in F major too. C down to F, C Bb A G F, C down a fifth to F).
You can also go from C up a fourth to F, and from F down a fourth to C. Both the fourth and the fifth are valid, it just depends which direction you’re going.
You could also think of it like being at your house but going to visit to the friend around the block. Are you going to turn left and go the short way, or turn right and go the long way? You’re still going to get there both ways. And you might usually take the short way, but that doesn’t mean the long way isn’t also another way to get there. And you might want to take the long way for some reason.
Hope that helps!
@@BradHarrison
Thanks much for the detailed explanation.
Reminded me of the Donovan line, "You've got to pick up every stitch."
from Season of the Witch.
Is it sufficient to say that clockwise on the circle means UP the scale from the root and counterclockwise means down?
Is the starting point of a move to the next fifth, the root of the scale used;
meaning like you said, "Start on F, you're in F Major" so I should be thinking F scale?
Is it adequate to simply think, if starting on a C chord, I know that F is the IV chord and so the next chord counterclockwise is logically a fourth away?
Not sure I grasp this:
You wrote: "You can also go from C up a fourth to F, and from F down a fourth to C. Both the fourth and the fifth are valid, it just depends which direction you’re going."
Should I be thinking the scale of C here? C D E F G A B C
or the F scale: F G A Bb C D E
C counterclockwise down to F is a fourth C F G7 (counting 4 back from the octave C and counting the B as 1 . . . B A G F
But how can F clockwise to C be a fourth as well ( F Bb C7)
when it appears to be a fifth on the circle.
Missing something here, (?)
Is it just that in G for instance, C is a fourth away from the I chord G and
so G being a fourth away from the C is just a reversal?
Thanks much,
Cliff
@user-ek4zy9ly1y Play an F in the piano. There’s a C above it and a C below it, right? The one to the right is a fifth up. The one to the left is a fourth down. If you’re clear on that concept; everything flows from that!
The circle is both fourths and fifths both ways! Clockwise is fifths up(fourths down), counterclockwise is fifths down(fourths up). Both are valid and correct. That’s what the video above is all about.
Also, if you’re thinking or chords, in C major the IV chord is F, but also in F major the V chord is C major.
Hope that helps! If you’re still stuck, I do teach lessons online. This might be easier to figure out in person. More info at bradharrison.ca/lessons.
I prefer to think of it as the circle of life.
And it moves us all.
C to F down is still a 4th, I thought?
C to F down is down a fifth. Clockwise is fifths up(fourths down), counterclockwise is fifths down(fourths up). Both are valid and correct. I actually did a whole other video about it! The Circle of Fifths vs The Circle of Fourths: th-cam.com/video/gT0Fawqrs8w/w-d-xo.html
My dislexia helps me to understand this
First
lot of unnecessary animations. Probably this confuses people even more. I figure this on my own one day looking at the circle. you go clockwise- you are looking at fifths and you go counterclockwise you are looking at fourths. It does not have to be this complicated. Anyways, thanks for your work.
That’s the whole point of the video though. It’s both both ways! Clockwise is fifths up(fourths down), counterclockwise is fifths down(fourths up). Both are valid and correct. So many people got confused about this on my main CoF video that it inspired me to make this one.
@@BradHarrison Thanks for the reply. Question if you do not mind answering. In your video you say- you can go up from C to perfect 5th G. OR you can start at C and go down a perfect fourth to G. You confused me on this second line. How you can you start from C and go down to G as perfect fourth. G is not the perfect fourth of C. Instead C is the perfect fourth of G. So should it not make sense to say from G, you can go down to perfect fourth C?
There’s more than one C and G in the piano! Start on C and go up to G. That’s a fifth. From there you can go up to a higher C(perfect fourth) or back down to the C you came from(perfect fifth). Happy to answer questions but you also might want to just watch the video again and pause when something doesn’t seem to make sense.Let me know if that helps!
@@BradHarrison agreed. It’s a continuation. I guess what I am trying to know is , when you go down from c to G, you say you go to fourth - but fourth of what ? I am thinking in terms of scale. Isn’t fourth of c is f instead ? Let me watch again and may be I will be able to understand it better.
@sartajbhullar3782 You count intervals from the bottom note. G A B C. As in G major. So you can go up a fourth from G to C, and then go back down a fourth from that C back down to the G you just came from.
It’s just like how you can go up or down from F to C, and up or down from C to F, to get either a fourth or fifth depending which direction you’re going.
This video may be useful as well for understanding intervals.
Intervals: Part I - Half of Everything You Need To Know In 7 Minutes
th-cam.com/video/8RPggfJ5bjQ/w-d-xo.html
You should go down 5ths not 4ths.
IT IS ALL RELATIVITY, 99% of fucking musician teachers never had logical mindset!!! that is why people turn up to online and search for answers, but it is hard to come by a good teacher is able to tell a thing and make it have a center of attention rather than explaining things but not making any sense.....
Yeah, some teachers are not great. Some found this stuff easy and don’t know how to get ahead of the common errors that people make. Hope you found this useful!
@@BradHarrison I do, I find your vid useful at a constant comfortable speed.
Not a chance
Not a chance of what?
"Dodecagon of 7ths" aka "fake news in music theory" aka "musicians v mathematicians" 🙄
Haha. Love the dodecadon of 7ths. The chromatic circle is the other one that would work to get all 12 pitches in.
To me it doesn't matter much at all. I don't adhere to the rules. I play what I will.
There are no rules in music, only context. Some things are more or less appropriate for certain styles of music. The circle just describes patterns in notes and keys and such but takes no stand on what’s appropriate or not. Like, paint whatever you like but colour theory, and angles, and measurements all exist regardless of your choices.
@@BradHarrison 👍🏻🍀✝️🇺🇸👊🏻
Really?
Sure! If you never used 7 chords in jazz, it wouldn’t be very jazzy or appropriate for the style, just the same as using all 7 chords in what’s supposed to be baroque, but who is to say that’s against a “rule”, or enforce it? You could add ketchup to your fettuccini Alfredo if you want. Many people will think you’re weird and make jokes but nobody is actually going to throw you in jail over it.
If you break those rules, you might not do well in music school or culinary school if the assignment is to fit in the style, and maybe nobody will like it anyway. But if you actually do create something incredible with non traditional ingredients, you might change the world.
@@BradHarrison No argument from me on your points because you make mine for me. Players need to play the styles audiences want to meet expectations. However; as a creator of art. I found you have to learn the basics but be able to pull back when information begins to turn you into an imitator of someone else's thought. Originality requires a bit of self discovery from one's own perspective; which is difficult to do. That's what fosters new insights and creativity as a result.
I watched 3 of your videos last night...and while I find them worthwhile, jamming what SHOULD have been a half-hour or longer content into 11 minutes, and talking way too fast...just doesn't cut it for me. On both videos, I was following..and comprehending the subject...until around minute 6. Then you lost me....
Please consider how complex these subjects are. I'm not a newbie. I play 11 instruments, and a performing musician. This was TOO FAST.
Needs time to sink in.
Everyone is going to have a different experience level and preference for speed. I also get comments telling me my videos are too basic. You cant pick a perfect speed or density for everyone. Feel free to pause and reflect or digest the info or inspect the visuals. I do it all the time with videos on complex subjects. And yeah, this stuff is complex. The video is an overview. You really figure this stuff when you go and work it out on your own. All the best!
@@BradHarrison again, I think it's WAY too fast...at 11 min...
Which video? This video is only 6 min. What part confused you?
There is a pause button and playback speed button, use them