Paul and Jesus at Odds
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มิ.ย. 2024
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Were Jesus and Paul were on different pages when it came to the most important issue for them both, how a person can be saved? In this episode, Bart and Megan explore the Gospels and the letters of Paul to see where these two pivotal figures share many similar views and yet appear to stand completely at odds on the major question. If they did, then is Christianity the religion Jesus proclaimed or the religion Paul proclaimed about Jesus?
Megan asks Bart:
- Why is it important to consider the teachings of the apostle Paul?
- What role did Paul’s writings play in the formation of Christianity? What role do they play in modern Christianity?
- What are the most important messages in Jesus’ teachings?
- Does Paul teach the same thing in his writings?
- If someone asked Jesus what they had to do to be saved, what would he have answered?
- If the same question was asked of Paul, would he have given the same answer?
- Why do people struggle to see these as different responses?
- What are some of the ways that Christians have tried to make these different messages mean the same thing?
- Would Paul have viewed himself as changing Jesus’ message?
- Do you see any commonalities between what Paul and Jesus said?
- Are any of their instructions contradictory, or is it possible to do what they both say?
- If you had to pick a side between Jesus and Paul, who would you go with?
I will never turn you off. Keep talking.
honestly, if anything, I'd like more food talk. maybe just lengthen the episode so that we still get the jesus stuff
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9You’re spamming the same message is really annoying.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 The message of Jesus Christ is God is love. Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Laws and the Prophets. It is not Submission to the will of Allah, as dictated by Muhammed, who hates Jews and infidels. Most Muslim countries are ravaged by violence, genital mutilation, slavery, honor killings and child brides. This is not the will of God, but the will of that demon you call Allah.
Thomas Jefferson:
"...I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, & leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. these palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart."
His is the only rational approach to "Scripture" of any kind.
@@stavroskarageorgis4804 Fuck Scripture
Of course, Jefferson was likely talking about the passages from the Pauline Epistles that we now know didn't actually come from Paul.
Thomas Jefferson was important or just another paid freemason actor
@@MarmaladeINFP, do we know that?
I find every episode interesting and engaging. I am not a believer, but have read the Bible through a couple of times trying to make sense of it and I have fortunately failed miserably. Neither my wife of 58 years or I were raised in church going Christian families and your broadcasts prove over and over that we have been very fortunate.
As a person raised as a beleiver I can confirm, you are very fortunate.
Jesus is God. Bible is not 🚫
I tend to asume anything the gospel writers say Jesus said is only loosely based on what he actually said combined with lots of additions
it's not like he had a videographer
I'm not even convinced it's loosely based.
@@SupremeScientisthow do you explain some Greek verses being obvious saying in Aramaic.
@@jessepelaez874 coincidence
@@Deewood9996 if it was coincidence then why doesn’t it make sense in Greek? I’m talking about the saying which Jesus speaks about the son of man being Lord of the sabbath. Read up on this, you might learn something, Bart has spoken on this too.
Bart's soapbox this week is my 24/7 365 soapbox!
Superb, illuminating discussion. THANK YOU SO MUCH, Megan and Bart!
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
Would you like to reason on the subject?
You both are awesome thanks for putting this together. These are the right lever points to understand our culture and how some of us humans try and cope with our fear of life and death.
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9I reported your account for terrorism FYI. 👍
I m an australian italian living in italy ...and i would always take picalillies from.england and branston pickles..and various chutneys ....and whereever i can i ll have a meat pie before leaving britain or australia
I grew up with steak and kidney pies every week but as Americanism takes over in Canada they have become impossible to find. I need to travel. My Nan made the various chutneys from her garden. I miss her and them.
@@davidhinkley you need to learn to cook so you can have kidney pie every time you want. 😊
6:45 the content begins
lol
Thx
Thank you for this info. I appreciate it.
Waiting for the day they chat about 'unimportant ' things for an elite hour just to annoy you. Lol
@@StingrayTomsFlorida who says it's annoying? And wouldn't you say it's kind of antisocial hope others would do something specifically to annoy another person?
I really enjoyed the discussion about foods 😘. I was raised an atheist (and still am) and have read the Bible several times and find it confusing and enjoy this channel's information.
Actually I think Paul is the founder of the sect of Christianity that end up being known as Christianity after exterminating all of their competition.
Sensible!
I believe you're correct about that, because Christianity has its roots in the RCC and John the Baptizer.
@@mickeydecurious also the roots of Pauline thinking could be traced to merkava mysticism and some dualism...because the fight between the flesh and the spirit is totally dualist. But also Pauline doctrine is rooted in apocalyptic Judaism of that time, as well as Jesus, but with a different application. But being fair with Paul, we don't know how much is actual Pauline thinking versus preconceived ideas that comes from the translators or escribes of those letters, at least the ones he actually did.
@@gusduenasArt
It's hard for me to be fair with Paul and allegend letters; considering those letters have borne justification for centuries of subjecting Women, Children, and "others" too bigotry, misogyny, hatred, violence, and control first by the RCC, then the Puritan Fundamentalist, now there's the EvilAngelcals who wants Their chance at Christian History.
Uhh..🤔 Don't do as the Temple priest does 👀 Jesus was right about that 😊
How can Paul be at odds since we know nothing else about the first Christians other than from his firstand accounts? All the Gospels were written much later.
Eurman I've read all your books most of your lectures your a rare breed most brilliant people can't explain things in layman's terms You can.and reach millions more people in being able to articulate your points superior Bart .looking forward to another book 📖 .thanks Bart .
Beyond excited for this one
thank you,dott Bart, really enjoyed it 🎉🎉🎉
Thank you so much for such a great episode!
Love these smart discussions, the give and take is really well done. You're both pro's and their videos show that. Reading one of Barts books rn- "Lost Christianities " funny thing is - as I read, the voice in my head sounds like Bart! Keep on...
Lately I’ve been watching everything Dr. Ehrman in YT. One topic I haven’t found anything yet from Dr Ehrman, and therefore I’d like to kindly suggest this topic for an upcoming episode: what are the possible methods for dating the Gospels, which one Dr Ehrman prefers, and why. I think it’s an interesting topic because many arguments from Dr Ehrman start with the approximate date of when the gospels were written, but for laymen like me, that is not so obvious. If that subject has already been tackled by Dr Ehrman, either on YT or anywhere else, please point me in the right direction. Much appreciated!
YES. PLEASE do the weaponization discussion. As a pastor I might end up recommending to our congregation.
Thanks for another wonderful episode!
Love this topic and subject! ❤
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
Thankyou for this episode! 08:58 I would really be interested in the authorship of Paul’s letters. Especially an explanation of the scholarly method to decide authorship. Is it mainly based on literary and theological differences? Is it the evidence which letters were know by the early church?
Are there alternative explanations for these differences?
Yes we want a full episode for letters of Paul and why some are wrongfully assigned to him
Excellent, ty👍
I would love to see Tovia Singer and Bart do a podcast together
I want megan lewis specifically
The fact that many people have not understood the teachings of Paul and Jesus, does noy mean their teachings are opposite.
I agree. It’s sad how much Dr Ehrman is either ignoring, or purposefully misrepresenting.
Paul says sooooo much about how we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The rich man would’ve absolutely been advised to give his riches to the poor by Paul.
@@hza1203So why would he not mention that as a requirement for salvation if it was so important for Jesus?
He never said they were "opposite". If you are able to exercise interpretation of discourse you can't summarize what he said with that statement. They were just different as they addresseddifferent public, inconsistent at times but perfectly reconciliable at others.
Compare GOP's stance on immigration and foreigners with Leviticus 19:33-34 _“‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God._
Read ‘Paul and Jesus’ by James tabor. It is really that good.
Yes, Bart has once more hit the nail right on the head.
Really .. you didn't notice he called Paul a disciple.
Thsnks for letting me speak my mind
The doctrine of atonement IS distasteful 1000% agreed
I think there are misconceptions of what atonement actually is. And to be honest, penal substitionary atonement is one of them.
Paul is very clear when writing about Christ dying for us that we will be dying with him. So Jesus is a forerunner and not a substitute.
Atonement in Jewish thinking is a ritual which uses the blood to clean or purify the holy place from the contamination of sins and impurity. The rituals thus allow for God to be invited to be with His people.
Animal sacrifices could not cover or atone for willful sins. These were polluting the land and the only way to get rid of them were the death of the sinner or the people as a whole going to exile. Such sins are eliminated only by God's forgiveness. (e.g. David was forgiven by God after taking Bathsheba)
Jesus' blood has the potential to clean the heavenly temple from our sins, even willful ones. That is stated in Hebrews, but not by Paul.
When Paul speaks of what Jesus' blood does, he rather views it as something that purifies us like water (which is not a sacrifice). Or he makes the point that it is used to make a new covenant between God and people. This also is not a sacrifice.
I recently read "Lamb of the Free" which deals with this topic quite extensively. I can highly recommend it.
Thomas
I'd find it really interesting if you could do a follow-up episode on how the letters of Paul are evaluated by scholars for authenticity.
I love listening to Dr. Ehrman and i confess i have a crush on Megan...
When some one gives their life for a purpose that doesn't mean the are killed ,you just do all you can to make someone life better than it was it doesn't require death.😮
Well now we know Dr. Ehrman is a party animal. 👍👊
Ive enjoyed that the end segment themes have been off for a little while. Very fun being told that Bart will be on his Soap box only for the narrator to tell us to make a fool of him.
You can’t tell the differences between Jesus and Paul because we don’t have the teachings of Jesus. The 4Gospels were written 10-20 years after Paul, largely to add & correct what Paul had to profess about Jesus.
You can’t “obey” God when being preached to. I think the real Jesus knew that and didn’t preach. That’s why we don’t have his ipsissima verba.
@annettecloutier2094 So I guess we should ignore Paul's doubtful teachings completely. Paul wasted a lot of of time writing all that stuff. Stick to the Gospels guys. They are completely reliable.
Ehhhh the gospel of Matthew is very Jewish Christian in nature and has the same exact wording as the didache, Luke , Thomas etc which leads to a mysterious Q. Which is good evidence that the living Jesus did in fact preach of a love message. Forgiveness, kindness, gentleness and him as king of a utopia where the dead were raised to be with us again . But of course Pagan Greco Roman world and political greedy Pharisees couldn’t dare have their power taken away. .
You still see it today. Peaceful people who have United are normally killed by the powerful. In fear of a revolution. So the Roman’s and Pharisees knew they were unpopular (Josephus confirms this) this popular preacher from the country was uniting the country folk and even some Judeans tired of the Pharisees were getting behind him as well. The gospels said they feared the people (both rome and Pharisees) I’m thinking rome didn’t fear the people and felt forced to crucify Jesus. They feared the people because jesus was really popular and sooner or later he’d have the numbers if he wanted he could maybe start a true revolution especially with his talk of God soon coming to help him with an army.
Yes, about curry being quintessentially British food. Do you remember Peter Ustinov's film "Stiff Upper Lips." When the company gets upset by brawling, oversexed Italians, Emily's aunt suggests "Let's go somewhere more British… India!"
Right? 😂 It's British as in "British Raj".
Hi Bart and Megan.
I’ve watched most of the videos on this channel and lots of Bart’s debates on other channels.
I’ve also just finished reading Bart’s “Heaven and Hell” book, and used it briefly in my doctoral dissertation - I am writing about how Mozart wrote his music in the “Requiem in D Minor” K626 to reflect the concepts of eternity, heaven, and hell.
I just ordered the “Forged” and “Misquoting Jesus” books. I am on summer break and I am looking forward to reading those as well.
I enjoyed watching this video. Your videos are always very informative, and for me personally, they are often a challenge to go find adequate answers in order to justify my Christian faith.
I do have one question, especially since I’ve heard you (Bart) make a similar statement in a previous video.
Towards the end of today’s video - around 32:55 - you say that you do not find it acceptable that God would require a sacrifice (even that of His Son) in order to forgive.
You go on and say that it would make more sense to you if God simply chose to forgive, without the need for an atonement.
With all due respect, and without trying to be rude to you or your audience, if there IS a God like the one described in Scripture, and if He DOES have the expectation for an atonement sacrifice in order to forgive, do you really think He would be concerned if Bart (or Florentin) or anyone else would have a problem with that, or if they found that to be “distasteful?”
In all honesty, if God is who Scripture says He is, does He have to speak or behave in a way that would make you or me satisfied?
Honest question.
Hope you have a great day.
I'd love to see what would come of a meeting of minds between Bart and Ammon Hillman. That would be something.
I am thrilled to learn about the whisky from Bart 😅
For some reason the first adbreak about the podcast only came through my left speaker, and music was coming through on the right
Thank you dr Burt Eherman I kip your saying thanks to Meaghan also have a pleasant day
burt?....who is burt?.....and who is eherman?........its BART EHRMAN.
The best class I had in my Lutheran Seminary studies ca 1974 was "The Jesus of History Christ of Faith Debate" great fun.
I love today's Soapbox!
I definitely find the doctrine of substitutionary attonement reprehensible
Oh that because unlike myself I haven't sinned ... Whereas other folk have guilt trips.
@russellmiles2861 well sin isn't a real thing, so...
Been going to the UK for 20 years and always bring back loose tea from Fortnam and Mason.
I always forget that you are here in NC. I would absolutely LOVE to attend one of your lectures or courses live. Please let me know if that’s a possibility.
It would be so cool if Bart put some pink, purple, and blue coloring on his beard and mustache to match with Megan's hair! Imagine how awesome it would look with their matching round glasses too when they both are side-by-side on the screen! I think that would really boost the show! Bart, if you're able to get this message, let's make it happen! 😂
Oh this is going to be good 🍿
No sound, still wonderful to see you both, God bless, 😊
I love what Bart says about atonement, i m definitely a Jesus guy too
Thankyou. Enjoyed. But what's with the non-stop fire-flies?
Anyone who who thinks Paul & Jesus are at odds, understands neither.
A program of John the babtist would be interesting.
I think the fact that Paul and Jesus both taught the primacy of love makes their teachings quite compatible. Jesus taught that love was the most important commandment (and perhaps the only commandment that mattered), whereas Paul taught that if you don't have love, you have nothing. Furthermore, while Jesus didn't teach substitutionary atonement, he did teach that he was "The Way" to the Father. Lastly, while Paul did not emphasize a 'Kingdom', his concept of 'Christ' is nearly synonymous: Jesus taught in Luke that the kingdom of God is within you, or in your midst; Paul likewise often taught of Christ as something in and around you. I know Bart is aware of these similarities; I assume he's just too dismissive of them when his students bring them up. I'll add that some scholars argue that Paul himself, if interpreted a certain way, taught the Moral Influence Theory of the Atonement, which would put him very in line with what Jesus seemed to say about himself as a living example of what to follow and emulate.
Praise Zeus in the sky! Megan's hairdo is so amazing.
You guys mabye haven't noticed, but food prices in the UK have gone way up since "Brexit".
Turning back to your conversation: I think that Saint Paul (who has got a quite famous cathedral over there in London) would have wrote letters to the Remainers, whereas Jesus would probably have been with BoJo, Cummings and Farage throwing the UK out of the EU-Temple. Do you agree?
Is it possible to follow them both .....great question
Religion of Jesus is forgiveness
Religion about jesus is atonement
Hm
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
Mark 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Matthew 26:28
“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
You summed it up perfectly.
Great podcast Bart and Megan.
Prof Erhman who do you think came up with the whole redemption scheme as a plot hole filler now that they’ve stopped scratching their heads when Jesus is executed and no kingdom of god arrives
Do you think Jesus actually said why hast thou forsaken me? Seems to really fit the idea that Jesus had a messiah complex and was shocked that he was dying, no angels inbound to save him so he cried out that famous line.
A Great episode - covered much of the same ground as in previous episode but a little more depth.
[13:43] Paul does not talk about forgiveness. ...
Paul did not think that God forgave people. He thought that God accepted the atonement of Jesus. And so it's a different conception of how salvation comes about.
[15:16] This is why the early 20th century Scholars were saying things like: 'the religion of Jesus is forgiveness and the religion about Jesus is atonement'
16:43 If someone asked Jesus what they had to do to be saved, what would he have answered?
"In the Matthew Mark and Luke, this man comes up to Jesus and he says to Jesus, 'What do I have to do to have eternal life? And Jesus has an immediate response: 'He says keep the Commandments'" (17:33)
...
And so it is really it's not just a different answer. It is a contrary answer"
If you forgive someone their debt (13:10), they have to declare it as income to the IRS.
Ha ha!
🤭I was looking at the TH-cam start page and I read too quickly "Paul and Jesus ate dogs" and I thought to myself "these disinformation channels have gone too far" before realizing it was you and the title was actually "Paul and Jesus at Odds"
A good demonstration of how truth can become legend. Although in this case, I think the word "hot" was missing. jk
Let's Investigate from the Bible,
Jesus's Teachings vs Paul's false teachings =
[1]
Paul: Salvation is by grace (Eph 2:8)
Jesus: Salvation by keeping God’s commandments
(Matt 19:16-19; Rev 22:14).
[2]
Paul: Faith is enough for salvation.[Rom 10 : 9-11]
Jesus: Faith is not enough but obedience is required for salvation.
(Matt 7:21-23; Luke 6:46)
[3]
Paul: Paul was appointed as a teacher (2Tim 1:11)
Jesus: Jesus Christ is our only Teacher (Matt 23:10)
[4]
Paul: Law of God is cursed [ Galatians 3:13 ]
Jesus: Law of God brings life (Matt 19:16-19)
[5]
Paul: Christ had abolish the law (Eph 2:15)
Jesus: Christ did not come to abolish the law (Matt 5:17)
[6]
Paul: those who want to follow the law of God, has left the Christ !!(Gal 5:4)
Jesus: Must follow the law wholeheartedly (Matt 18:8-9 & 19:17)
[7]
Paul:
Wide gate and easy way - just by calling on Jesus name and believing in Him in heart (Rom 10:9-11)
Jesus:
Narrow gate and difficult path by obeying Jesus Christ (Matt 7:13-14)
[8]
Jesus = preached the same religion of Moses.
Paul = by crucifixion, law of Moses is obsolete.(Eph 2:14-15)
============
These are a few examples. there are many more.
Below 2:30 min video contain more information.
============
[9 min video]
The Apostle Paul was the anti-christ according to the first Christians
th-cam.com/video/OmkwcGAt3XQ/w-d-xo.html
===========
[2 : 30 min video]
Jesus vs Paul Teachings according to the Bible - Jesus message Distorted!
th-cam.com/video/3DY-t_Fwxv0/w-d-xo.html
================
Jesus's brother James, who was one of the disciples of Jesus,
opposed Paul's false teachings.
if you have real interest, collect these books =
Jesus vs. Paul : Christianity's Greatest Lies Exposed
www.amazon.com/Jesus-vs-Paul-Christianitys-Greatest/dp/0615917747
PAUL VS. JAMES:
The Battle That Shaped Christianity and Changed The World
www.amazon.com/PAUL-VS-JAMES-Christianity-Changed-ebook/dp/B07GJTT4TD
=================
We Muslims have got no objections
with the teachings of Jesus.
But Paul is the corrupter of Jesus's message.
He attacked the real Christians physically
at the time of Jesus.
&
after the departure of Jesus.
he attacked the lovers of Jesus spiritually
by corrupting the teachings of Jesus.
=============
Summery of how Paul corrupted the teachings of Jesus Christ(pbuh) =
The whole old testament + The Teachings of Jesus in new testament ,
and also The Quran says the same thing -
1. ''GOD is One and Only''
2. Follow the commandments of GOD wholeheartedly.
3. Repent from sin and ask forgiveness from GOD the Father -
you will be saved & not be punished.
.
But after the departure of Jesus Christ (pbuh),
Paul changed the teachings into -
1. God is 3 in 1.
2. No need to follow the commandments of GOD
3. "original sin" - you are sinner by born
for a sin that u never committed.
and the sins u really commit u need not to repent
but to believe in Jesus crucifixion.
So,
Follow Jesus = Go to Heaven for ever.
Follow Paul = Go to Hell for ever.
May GOD guide us to the path of truth.
=================
@onejohn2,26 ...Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ...
I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ...
Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ...
That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol
God Bless 🙏💯...
I would say that Paul is the founder of christianity in the same way that Ray Kroc is the founder of McDonald's. As in, Ray Kroc wasn't Dick or Mac McDonald and Paul wasn't Jesus - but Ray, and Paul, were the guys who popularized it, spread it all over the world, got all the franchises going....
Without Ray Kroc, McDonald's would still be a family-run single store in San Bernardino - Without Paul, christianity would be an obscure (and by now possibly extinct) Jewish cult that never made an impact on the world. (possibly slight exaggerations there but not by much.) And Ray, like Paul, made a lot of changes to the plan after he took over....
So the removal of obligation for gentiles to follow the Jewish law is powdered milkshake?
33:15 except that Metanoia doesn't mean to ask for forgiveness and to be sorry to God, right? This word we so often see as translated to "repent" actually means something closer to "shift your perspective" or "change your understanding"...
Great video. On the question of whether they had different ethical teachings, I don't know if they ever outright contradict, but it almost seems like they had different attitudes towards women in authority. Jesus encouraged women to preach and I'm not sure if Paul did the same.
instant coffee isn't a bad method of making coffee, it just happens that instant coffee is usually made with bad coffee as an ingredient. If the instant coffee making process was performed on good coffee it would still be pretty good coffee.
Hello BAAAAT!
Mark 2:5, Jesus forgave the paralyzed man's sins without dying
It breaks my heart that our representatives have forgotten about the separation of church and state and that we elect truly dangerous people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. It is even more disturbing that she has so little insight that she doesn't realize how ridiculous she sounds.
I wonder what Marjorie Taylor Greene's agenda is. She turns a needed valid discussion into a blantant accusation if not a groundless verdict. Her vicious attack on Fauci is wrong. We have not enough evidence until we have access to more resources and evidence. China needs to open up. Bart is like Marjorie in a sense. It doesn't bother me since he is a historian. He has access to limited evidence and resources from the past, and yet has to conjure up a narrative that is plausible.
Bart suggested that the ethical teachings of Jesus and Paul were not contradictory. However, it seems likely that Jesus would have severely denounced Paul for his harsher writings (e.g., Galatians 3).
This is close to what Nietzsche wrote about Paul in "The Antichrist".
Based on the available sources, Jesus and Paul had very little in common.
Paul was explicit in his lack of knowledge about or concern for Jesus, as he was only teaching/preaching Christ (which is quite different from anything else found in that era of Christianity/Judaism).
I can show you many sources in Aramaic and Sumerian languages of understanding the Truth of Scripture. Do you only read english? I have documented over 7 ancient plus 5 modern languages with most of what you have never read.
Shalom
Blessings from Africa
Where did the name Jesus come from? Please don't say the bible, then you are ignorant of scriptures. Find Ancient history and discover a whole world of truths by opening your heart and mind, to the unexpected journey of truth.
Do you know Greek, as this will open your mind to knowing more of where the name jesus came from. The current calendar we all use (Gregorian calendar) was started when?
From that answer you will have 1400 years of the Biblical Calender that dates back 2.7million years, to the birth of the universe including Adam and Eve.
If you want to see heaven, lie on you back and look up, that's the HEAVENS. The place you want to go to one day is "the sea of fire and glass" sorry no heaven. You might have also seen statues of jesus and paintings of him. Where did the images originate from? You will fall off your to discover the truth of most beliefs on earth today. Over 80% of the bible has been changed, to create a web of deceit and BS that you would not believe. Please find everything that you believe in outside of your bible.
Shalom
Blessings from Africa
This is incorrect. Who commissioned Paul to spread the news of Jesus being the Christ, and the atonement for our sins? Jesus did, so we should listen to Paul because he explains what the gospels do not. Paul has explained the consequences of Jesus’s death in his letters which give us a greater insight into the plan of salvation God set into motion.
Paul was obsessed with Jesus. However he projected his own new age ideas on Jesus .
@@gabrielmiller1226 This is a wrong understanding of Paul. Read his letters to start with. Paul has explained what no gospel writer did. He has given us insight in the plan of God which the apostles before him never saw.
I would love something on the last supper. Were we really all admonished to regularly engage in cannibalism? I don't get why some take teachings so often in the form of metaphor and parable and suddenly in the instance of the last supper, assume to take it literally.
Also, I always saw the two strains of forgiveness vs atonement but I was instructed to be a good little soldier and trust that they were reconciled. They would have been better to have allowed some of us to just pick the first and better option because, like so many others, that was the first crack that showed me the light that led me out of Christianity and eventually all religion.
The light is still there:
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
Bart ... NEVER call whisky SCOTCH here in Scotland. Scotch is a mildly derogatory term for Scottish people.
You might be familiar with the Gospel of Philip found at the Nag Hammadi library? Perhaps the first to take Jesus' death as a salvific intention?
Loving your 'insider' neighbor, or any neighbor?
I can't imagine bringing any food from the US to Europe, not even UK Europe.
Bringing food over when you travel. Sacrelidge !!! One of the main joys of it all is finding out what culinary tricks the locals have up their sleeves. Allthough, just to point out the obvious, there are 3 people in your world who's cooking can not be beat 1. Your mother. 2 and 3 your grandmothers. It is an unwritten law of the universe. I will never forget 35 years of age after having worked 7 100 plus hour weeks of physical labour (not the hardest not the lightest either) in Italy With the dirt and grime still covering you driving cleanly across Europe Back to my home town of Delft arriving at my parents house at 02:45. Finding my mom waiting for me and my boy's with a giant pot of steaming hot snert , and a load of rauwe andijvie stampot. And a few ice cold beers. I don't care who you are or how manyvstars you may have. THAT kind of cooking simply is unbeatable.
Obviously you never tasted my mother's cooking. Just like Megan's mum, she would boil all goodness out of the veg. (I suspect that's one of the reasons I haven't had an English girlfriend since I was 15.)
@@theotheothShe can't have been your actual mother then. Because of the law i stated.
@@mauricematla8379 Well if the unwritten laws of the universe (that you wrote -- ok typed -- or stated) are that infallible, I guess I am going to have to tell my old mum that the game is up.
@@theotheothWell would that be wise ? I would advise you simply go do the math taste each and every womans cooking who is of suffient age to be your mom and if you like it fiere you go cyou found tour actual mother . Even DNA testing has a margine of error but this method is the only absolutely certain way.
I would buy a packet of Marie biscuits as I enjoyed them as a kid. 🥞
So Jesus makes a prediction, gets it wrong, but blesses us with forgiveness.
Paul comes along and tells everyone that they're all horrible sinners, and Jesus had to die but only for those who believed what he, Paul, said.
😢 🎉 😮
+ 1 for whisky at the duty free shops!
There's a lot I like living in Spain now, but I'll take a Whopper over a Malteser any day of the week.
I would say that if there was no Paul, there is no Christianity as we know it today. No Paul, no gentiles are brought into the fold. No Paul, then Christianity is constrained as a sect within Judaism.
I feel vindicated watching this. I always wondered: What would have Paul said if the rich young ruler had asked him about inheriting eternal life? Clearly the answer would have been different from what Jesus gave. At one point I even imagined this rich young ruler as someone who eventually gave up his riches and followed what Jesus said to him. It then wouldn't surprise me that should this rich young ruler then become an apostle and started preaching what Jesus told him, that Paul would have challenged him and maybe even call him a "super apostle".
EDIT: Soapbox section was awesome.
It seems to me that John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews had a new and mystical take on the Logos doctrine -- that the "word" of God (specifically as Psalm 33:6 describes it as "the breath of His mouth") literally, even hyper-literally, became the man Jesus, resulting in an "incarnate Torah" -- not an "incarnate God." Then they developed this so that the "death" of the Torah had the effect of canceling "the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15) and its accompanying transgressions; while the resurrection of this "word/Torah" inaugurated the "new covenant." This is where they get expressions like "blood of the covenant" and "[law] nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), even in conjunction with Christian Jews being "zealous for the Torah," which otherwise would be contradictory. In a word, they believed in the death and resurrection of the Torah. Taking it one more step, they taught this was a one-time event and no repentance is possible for sin against this new covenant (Hebrews 10:26-31). One other aspect of this doctrine is probably what led to the erroneous belief that Jesus is God -- and that is the Christian bible's three-time mention of "creation THROUGH the Word/Torah" - John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2. This brings us back to Psalm 33:6, "By the word of the Lord, the heavens were made, and with the breath of His mouth, all their host." The Word is nothing other than the speech of God which WAS God but became a man, according to John. Paul and the author of Hebrews agree.
Talking about food, what did the early christians eat?
It depends where they lived
In Assyria we deoended on grains, vegetables and some proteins from cattle we raised
I wonder when fasting started to mean "eating fish".
If Paul's accounts are the closest I'm a little disappointed, I was hoping to find out more about him as a historical person.
Oh well hopefully one day some new information might show up.
However it makes me wonder what Paul had been told about Jesus and who said it to him.
Questions will probably never know the answers to.
You look lovely, Megan! 🥰🤗
how would we know if paul diverged from jesus teaching or not by comparing paul's jesus with mark's jesus that came after paul like?
It’s more the like the gospels writers changed Paul’s message (since his letters were written at least a decade before the gospels) if you want to compare them.
Since early Christianity was much more diverse than it is now and the New Testament books were written decades after Jesus death so there’s always contradictions even between the gospels especially the gospel of according to John.
Im going wirh McVities Digestives and Rich Tea as Megan's choice of biscuits 😋
Ginger Snaps. Dark Choc Digestives. Borders Dark Chocolate Gingers. Those are my bets :)
@@jonnylumberjack6223 Oooooh, Borders' Dark chocolate ginger.. Nice shout. 😋
Nice program. Jesus was not a Christian , didn't teach Christian doctrines ,the Trinity doctrine, moving the Sabbath from one day to another, so who could compare Jesus to Christianity,what was the reason for doing it. And why do some believe it.🤔
What are Multiple Fish? Sorry. I love Bart.
There was a reason for Jesus to have died. The story of Jesus' terrifying death and then failure to have died, gave us the spiritual means by which to believe the rest of it. Jesus knew that he could achieve by dying what he could never have achieved by any other means. Just like Obi-wan-Kenobi fighting with Darth Vader. And Martin Luther King.
Regarding do Paul’s and Jesus teachings contradict each other , isn’t the main contradiction that Jesus said to keep Jewish commandments and Paul didn’t ? I guess the question might have taken differently
Jesus told Jews to keep ALL the commandments. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles, and he taught them the Noahide laws. Briefly, these are refrain from idolatry, blasphemy, murder, sexual sins, theft, eating a limb cut from a living animal, and establish courts of law. Many of these laws are clustered in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, but the other can be found elsewhere in the Christian bible.
@@miriamlevinson185So basically you're saying that the best example to follow, the prefect role model is ZERO example for the Gentile Christians to follow. They preach and practice the exact opposite of the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible.
What a masterstroke by Paul the f3r0c10us w0lf in she-ep's clo-thi-ng whom Jesus wa-rn-ed about.
Not debt BUT trespasses. Something different.
Perhaps the earliest Christology in the NT is set forth in the famous Philippians hymn apparently incorporated by Paul in the early portion of his letter.There is no transactional personal salvation process described in that hymn, which indicates to me that Paul could indeed have been the origin of such a notion, so foreign to the historical Jesus as best we can glean him.
What about a "principal-agent" relationship between G-d and human beings.
Bart is my Jebus!