@Deewood9996 if it was coincidence then why doesn’t it make sense in Greek? I’m talking about the saying which Jesus speaks about the son of man being Lord of the sabbath. Read up on this, you might learn something, Bart has spoken on this too.
In his introduction to Androcles and the Lion, Shaw says Paul made Christianity into as salvation religion (of which he says there were many) - whereas Jesus was talking about love- Bhakti- love of God, forgiving the debts of others, loving your enemy, seeing God in everyone, especially the least among us, and giving up our attachment to the rewards of the world in order to gain the kingdom of heaven.
That doesn't really gel with those passages that weren't edited out of the bible such as “I came not to bring peace, but a sword” and sell your cloak and buy a sword. These suggest that Jesus believed himself destined to lead the forces of the kingdom of god against the Romans. That is consistent with the Romans crucifying him (for sedition presumably). There would have been no reason to execute him if his message had all been about love and forgiveness.
You both are awesome thanks for putting this together. These are the right lever points to understand our culture and how some of us humans try and cope with our fear of life and death.
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message. Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice. Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed. Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan. Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign. Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change. Mark 12.29 God is one. Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man. James 1.18 - God does not change. Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others. Jon 10.30 father & I are 1. Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God. So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent. Here is a verse overwritten. Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable. Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see. They all say Simon carried the cros. Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it. This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess. As for resurrection. Mark 16.9 to 20 are added Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not. Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw. Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe. So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels. - James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism. Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine) Would you like to reason on the subject?
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message. Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice. Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed. Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan. Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign. Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change. Mark 12.29 God is one. Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man. James 1.18 - God does not change. Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others. Jon 10.30 father & I are 1. Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God. So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent. Here is a verse overwritten. Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable. Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see. They all say Simon carried the cros. Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it. This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess. As for resurrection. Mark 16.9 to 20 are added Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not. Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw. Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe. So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels. - James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism. Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 The message of Jesus Christ is God is love. Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Laws and the Prophets. It is not Submission to the will of Allah, as dictated by Muhammed, who hates Jews and infidels. Most Muslim countries are ravaged by violence, genital mutilation, slavery, honor killings and child brides. This is not the will of God, but the will of that demon you call Allah.
It seems to me that Jesus, born under law, taught how impossible it is to enter the kingdom by law keeping. The sermon on the mount pointed out that very fact. Paul, under grace, taught the way to enter the kingdom was thru the atonement of Jesus on the cross.
I find every episode interesting and engaging. I am not a believer, but have read the Bible through a couple of times trying to make sense of it and I have fortunately failed miserably. Neither my wife of 58 years or I were raised in church going Christian families and your broadcasts prove over and over that we have been very fortunate.
The Quran clears up at all the fabrications and misquotes added to the original Bible, read the chapter called Maryam(Mary) it explains in details. Read further if you want to decode the Bible
@@timandmonica the prophet Mohamed(pbuh) is the seal of the prophets starting with Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus -Et. If u read the Quran it talks about all these prophets and the messages they brought . The Quran confirms the original messages that those prophets brought and denies the additions/corruptions added by men throughout time. The Quran as the final revelation from the God of Abraham is for all mankind not for a specific ppl like the Bible or Torah which were both sent only to the children of Israel. As the last revelation it has no errors or contradictions and therefore does not need to be decoded as it is the perfect word of God. I leave you with the greetings of all the prophets. "Shalom alekhum” peace be unto you .
Lately I’ve been watching everything Dr. Ehrman in YT. One topic I haven’t found anything yet from Dr Ehrman, and therefore I’d like to kindly suggest this topic for an upcoming episode: what are the possible methods for dating the Gospels, which one Dr Ehrman prefers, and why. I think it’s an interesting topic because many arguments from Dr Ehrman start with the approximate date of when the gospels were written, but for laymen like me, that is not so obvious. If that subject has already been tackled by Dr Ehrman, either on YT or anywhere else, please point me in the right direction. Much appreciated!
It has already been covered, but I can’t remember precisely where. It’s possible, considering that Ehrman is now monetizing his lectures, that it has been removed from TH-cam, which would explain why you can’t find it.
He talks about it all the time... paleographic and radiocarbon analysis on manuscripts can helps us date these later copies. Our oldest manuscript is a tiny fragment of a single page of the Gospel of John from the mid-2nd century. But we get our first full manuscripts of all four gospels by at least 200 CE. To date the gospels back to the 1st century, I recommend searching google for a post on his blog called "When Were the Gospels Written? Digging Deeper for Context".
Paulinity was based on Egyptians who believed in judgement and rebirth for the bestest people, and Romanism which required all citizens to declare Emperors became gods at death as did other genius persons. German myths started to be heard of Wotan and Valhalla afterlife. The Jews freed from Babylon by Darius of Persia got to hear how life was a battle of Good vs Evil and a good mindset could lead to heaven. """Zoroastrianism (see Zoroastrianism) preaches the idea that Death is the work of the evil Angra Mainyu (see Angra Mainyu). The religion also asserts the existence of the soul (Fravasi) and the resurrection of the body at the time of the Great Renewal that will come one day. The soul, created by Ahura Mazda (see Ahura Mazda), is immortal and will be judged immediately after the death of the body. At the time of death, the soul must pass over a narrow bridge. At the entrance to the bridge stands the daenā, or conscience, a maiden who becomes identified with the individual soul. The good souls see a beautiful and dignified woman, while the evil souls see a witch. The good, led by the maiden, will pass over to the “House of Songs” or Paradise as angel-like beings who will serve as guardians of the living good people. The souls of those who have lived evil lives will be attacked by the witch and will fall as demons into the dark cold ravine or “House of Lies” that is Hell. According to some sources, it is the bridge itself, Chinvat, that decides on the fate of souls. Other sources say Ahura Mazda himself makes the judgment, and still others say that Mithra (see Mithra) presides over an actual trial of the individual, who must plead his or her own case.""". Only the Temple priests kept declaring Heaven did not exist, and Rome in 70ad destroyed the Temple in rebellion and killed all Jewish nobles. Greek Jews after this catastrophe then wrote the Bible and added heaven a bit, and bishops in verbal sermons really said aloud there was heaven. Jesus himself did not think people went to heaven, people only lived on Earth which could be made better and paradise by goodness....
@@StingrayTomsFlorida who says it's annoying? And wouldn't you say it's kind of antisocial hope others would do something specifically to annoy another person?
Thomas Jefferson: "...I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, & leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. these palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart."
I m an australian italian living in italy ...and i would always take picalillies from.england and branston pickles..and various chutneys ....and whereever i can i ll have a meat pie before leaving britain or australia
I grew up with steak and kidney pies every week but as Americanism takes over in Canada they have become impossible to find. I need to travel. My Nan made the various chutneys from her garden. I miss her and them.
You can’t tell the differences between Jesus and Paul because we don’t have the teachings of Jesus. The 4Gospels were written 10-20 years after Paul, largely to add & correct what Paul had to profess about Jesus.
@annettecloutier2094 So I guess we should ignore Paul's doubtful teachings completely. Paul wasted a lot of of time writing all that stuff. Stick to the Gospels guys. They are completely reliable.
Ehhhh the gospel of Matthew is very Jewish Christian in nature and has the same exact wording as the didache, Luke , Thomas etc which leads to a mysterious Q. Which is good evidence that the living Jesus did in fact preach of a love message. Forgiveness, kindness, gentleness and him as king of a utopia where the dead were raised to be with us again . But of course Pagan Greco Roman world and political greedy Pharisees couldn’t dare have their power taken away. . You still see it today. Peaceful people who have United are normally killed by the powerful. In fear of a revolution. So the Roman’s and Pharisees knew they were unpopular (Josephus confirms this) this popular preacher from the country was uniting the country folk and even some Judeans tired of the Pharisees were getting behind him as well. The gospels said they feared the people (both rome and Pharisees) I’m thinking rome didn’t fear the people and felt forced to crucify Jesus. They feared the people because jesus was really popular and sooner or later he’d have the numbers if he wanted he could maybe start a true revolution especially with his talk of God soon coming to help him with an army.
@@offgrid405 I agree not to listen to Paul but to say the gospels are reliable is a joke. Let me know when you discover all the contradictions in the gospels. It will take you a while. It looks like from yr statement that you have not read the gospels
Eurman I've read all your books most of your lectures your a rare breed most brilliant people can't explain things in layman's terms You can.and reach millions more people in being able to articulate your points superior Bart .looking forward to another book 📖 .thanks Bart .
Thankyou for this episode! 08:58 I would really be interested in the authorship of Paul’s letters. Especially an explanation of the scholarly method to decide authorship. Is it mainly based on literary and theological differences? Is it the evidence which letters were know by the early church? Are there alternative explanations for these differences?
All of that is guess work I am sure even at inception at the Hyppo and Carthage the so called scholars wouldn’t be able to verify what is written by any apostle or what was said by any of the characters in the tales. I’m sure the criteria for any determination made during the canonization whether at Nicean, Hyppo or Carthage and the source behind that criteria is more personally aligned to the expedience and practicality rather than any magical method of authentication/verification. Doubt any of those men were inspired by god 😂😂😂😂
@@mickeydecurious also the roots of Pauline thinking could be traced to merkava mysticism and some dualism...because the fight between the flesh and the spirit is totally dualist. But also Pauline doctrine is rooted in apocalyptic Judaism of that time, as well as Jesus, but with a different application. But being fair with Paul, we don't know how much is actual Pauline thinking versus preconceived ideas that comes from the translators or escribes of those letters, at least the ones he actually did.
@@gusduenasArt It's hard for me to be fair with Paul and allegend letters; considering those letters have borne justification for centuries of subjecting Women, Children, and "others" too bigotry, misogyny, hatred, violence, and control first by the RCC, then the Puritan Fundamentalist, now there's the EvilAngelcals who wants Their chance at Christian History. Uhh..🤔 Don't do as the Temple priest does 👀 Jesus was right about that 😊
How can Paul be at odds since we know nothing else about the first Christians other than from his firstand accounts? All the Gospels were written much later.
The problem with the doctrine of atonement is that it implies that God is beholden to some kind of cosmic economic force that obligates him to receive a payment before he can forgive a debt. That suggests that God isn't all-powerful and didn't create everything, if there's this system above him that he has to obey like that. Otherwise he could just forgive us whenever he wants.
Think of an example involving a Lawyer, and The Bar. Except Father God IS THE BAR, and OUR COUNSELOR! Now factor in the fact that this is ALMIGHTY GOD, and not a human (bribable, or inattentive, or forgetful, or slothful) lawyer. Care to revise your statement 😅
God has absolute power....wow, that is Too Overpowering for any discussion at all 😅 So why allow sin to start with.... No, to get back to a serious discussion, the Biblical History has to do with blood sacrifice for sin. The Same culture which Prophetically Foretold Jesus birth, manner of death, result of ressurection. Seems Very strong evidence for What Happened! Paul was from this culture, excelled in it. So suddenly, he started teaching his counter-story.....right!
@@nobodyatall7039and Don't loose sight of the Old Testament Sacrifices were temporary, The Son's Sacrifice was ONCE! Never again, for those who accepted it in repentance and believing Faith!
33:15 except that Metanoia doesn't mean to ask for forgiveness and to be sorry to God, right? This word we so often see as translated to "repent" actually means something closer to "shift your perspective" or "change your understanding"...
I really enjoyed the discussion about foods 😘. I was raised an atheist (and still am) and have read the Bible several times and find it confusing and enjoy this channel's information.
I would say that Paul is the founder of christianity in the same way that Ray Kroc is the founder of McDonald's. As in, Ray Kroc wasn't Dick or Mac McDonald and Paul wasn't Jesus - but Ray, and Paul, were the guys who popularized it, spread it all over the world, got all the franchises going.... Without Ray Kroc, McDonald's would still be a family-run single store in San Bernardino - Without Paul, christianity would be an obscure (and by now possibly extinct) Jewish cult that never made an impact on the world. (possibly slight exaggerations there but not by much.) And Ray, like Paul, made a lot of changes to the plan after he took over....
@@Isaac5123 Paul did a very good job in setting up Christianity for its rise to become the dominant religion under Constantine and later rulers and nations. What he did to the theology, the culture of early Christianity, his corruption of Jesus’s teachings - as others have put it, he took the religion of Jesus and transformed it into the religion about Jesus… he was effective at making it stick - every major branch of Christianity is Pauline and trinitarian now - I’m not making a judgement on whether that’s good or bad, except to note that it’s another strike against Christianity being a true religion since one self-proclaimed “apostle” was able to take it off the rails and completely change the whole faith like Paul apparently did. That is, unless you’re going to claim Paul had it right while Peter, James and the others in Jerusalem had gotten Jesus all wrong, in which case Paul’s takeover might have been part of god’s plan? If you believe, of course.
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message. Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice. Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed. Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan. Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign. Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change. Mark 12.29 God is one. Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man. James 1.18 - God does not change. Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others. Jon 10.30 father & I are 1. Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God. So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent. Here is a verse overwritten. Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable. Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see. They all say Simon carried the cros. Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it. This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess. As for resurrection. Mark 16.9 to 20 are added Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not. Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw. Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe. So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels. - James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism. Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
@@thesavior6291 if Jesus is one with God as u claim and if Jesus was the same in the old testament then he may have taught something worse than suicide bombing... Killing of children. After all Jesus is 'one with God' so the old testament atrocities are just as much his.
I think there should be an in dept discussion, dedicated to the relationships, between Jesus, James, (brother of Jesus), Peter, (Bishop of Jerusalem), and Paul... What they agreed on, what they disagreed about, the final outcomes, and relationships going forward.
Mk. 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Ransom means "consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity".
Which church are preaching the gospel of the kingdom around the world to all nations as Jesus Christ said? Matthew 10:16, 24:14, 28:19-20, Mark 13:10..
Love these smart discussions, the give and take is really well done. You're both pro's and their videos show that. Reading one of Barts books rn- "Lost Christianities " funny thing is - as I read, the voice in my head sounds like Bart! Keep on...
Based on the available sources, Jesus and Paul had very little in common. Paul was explicit in his lack of knowledge about or concern for Jesus, as he was only teaching/preaching Christ (which is quite different from anything else found in that era of Christianity/Judaism).
I can show you many sources in Aramaic and Sumerian languages of understanding the Truth of Scripture. Do you only read english? I have documented over 7 ancient plus 5 modern languages with most of what you have never read. Shalom Blessings from Africa
Where did the name Jesus come from? Please don't say the bible, then you are ignorant of scriptures. Find Ancient history and discover a whole world of truths by opening your heart and mind, to the unexpected journey of truth. Do you know Greek, as this will open your mind to knowing more of where the name jesus came from. The current calendar we all use (Gregorian calendar) was started when? From that answer you will have 1400 years of the Biblical Calender that dates back 2.7million years, to the birth of the universe including Adam and Eve. If you want to see heaven, lie on you back and look up, that's the HEAVENS. The place you want to go to one day is "the sea of fire and glass" sorry no heaven. You might have also seen statues of jesus and paintings of him. Where did the images originate from? You will fall off your to discover the truth of most beliefs on earth today. Over 80% of the bible has been changed, to create a web of deceit and BS that you would not believe. Please find everything that you believe in outside of your bible. Shalom Blessings from Africa
This is incorrect. Who commissioned Paul to spread the news of Jesus being the Christ, and the atonement for our sins? Jesus did, so we should listen to Paul because he explains what the gospels do not. Paul has explained the consequences of Jesus’s death in his letters which give us a greater insight into the plan of salvation God set into motion.
@@gabrielmiller1226 This is a wrong understanding of Paul. Read his letters to start with. Paul has explained what no gospel writer did. He has given us insight in the plan of God which the apostles before him never saw.
I always forget that you are here in NC. I would absolutely LOVE to attend one of your lectures or courses live. Please let me know if that’s a possibility.
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message. Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice. Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed. Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan. Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign. Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change. Mark 12.29 God is one. Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man. James 1.18 - God does not change. Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others. Jon 10.30 father & I are 1. Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God. So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent. Here is a verse overwritten. Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable. Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see. They all say Simon carried the cros. Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it. This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess. As for resurrection. Mark 16.9 to 20 are added Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not. Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw. Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe. So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels. - James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism. Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 26:28 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
As an English professor, I'm going to split hairs with Bart about who founded the Christian religion. He makes clear that Paul was not the originator of the theology of atonement. The earliest Christians came up with this explanation for why Jesus "had" to die. But "theology" is not the same thing as "religion." At its core, religion is an organized social institution based on a set of shared beliefs. Paul is the one who travelled all over the near east to found the first Christian churches, and he provided the governing rules and guidance for those churches (such as: it is ok for Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians to eat together.) So I do think it is appropriate to say that Paul founded the Christian Church. Is that the same as saying he funded the Christian religion? I would say yes, but it depends on whether you see religions as being a set of beliefs or you see it as an organized social institution.
_Paul is the one who travelled all over the near east to found the first Christian churches……So I do think it is appropriate to say that Paul founded the Christian Church._ Your assertion that Paul _founded the first Christian churches_ is incorrect. Paul's own writings makes it hard to believe that he founded any church, much less _the Christian Church._
Paul was maybe *the* founder of Gentile Christianity as it has persevered to this day, and given that that's the vast majority of Christianity, I second this hair-splitting.
A system of beliefs *and associated practices relative to, well, human noumena set apart from other noumena and phenomena and 'forbidden', adherence to which defines the membership of a community, a Church.
It seems to me that John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews had a new and mystical take on the Logos doctrine -- that the "word" of God (specifically as Psalm 33:6 describes it as "the breath of His mouth") literally, even hyper-literally, became the man Jesus, resulting in an "incarnate Torah" -- not an "incarnate God." Then they developed this so that the "death" of the Torah had the effect of canceling "the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15) and its accompanying transgressions; while the resurrection of this "word/Torah" inaugurated the "new covenant." This is where they get expressions like "blood of the covenant" and "[law] nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), even in conjunction with Christian Jews being "zealous for the Torah," which otherwise would be contradictory. In a word, they believed in the death and resurrection of the Torah. Taking it one more step, they taught this was a one-time event and no repentance is possible for sin against this new covenant (Hebrews 10:26-31). One other aspect of this doctrine is probably what led to the erroneous belief that Jesus is God -- and that is the Christian bible's three-time mention of "creation THROUGH the Word/Torah" - John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2. This brings us back to Psalm 33:6, "By the word of the Lord, the heavens were made, and with the breath of His mouth, all their host." The Word is nothing other than the speech of God which WAS God but became a man, according to John. Paul and the author of Hebrews agree.
Presumably oral tradition, which begs the question- If these quotes were common enough among early Christians at the time for Paul to incorporate them into his writings, why do they only appear in Luke? Specifically doing it in remembrance of him is only found there. Mark and Matthew's recounting of this event doesn't convey a continuous ritualistic partaking, but more of a one time occurrence at the last supper specifically. EDIT: After reading 1 Cor 11:23-26 it appears that this was specifically revealed to Paul by Jesus. This would explain the fact that the recurring aspect only appears in Luke if the writer were copying from Paul's letters (which is an argument against the historicity of Acts- That 'Luke' was copying from Paul and altering the events to fit a theological agenda held by Luke)
It would be so cool if Bart put some pink, purple, and blue coloring on his beard and mustache to match with Megan's hair! Imagine how awesome it would look with their matching round glasses too when they both are side-by-side on the screen! I think that would really boost the show! Bart, if you're able to get this message, let's make it happen! 😂
Also, I always saw the two strains of forgiveness vs atonement but I was instructed to be a good little soldier and trust that they were reconciled. They would have been better to have allowed some of us to just pick the first and better option because, like so many others, that was the first crack that showed me the light that led me out of Christianity and eventually all religion.
The light is still there: The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine)
Yes, about curry being quintessentially British food. Do you remember Peter Ustinov's film "Stiff Upper Lips." When the company gets upset by brawling, oversexed Italians, Emily's aunt suggests "Let's go somewhere more British… India!"
What is striking is that Luke/Acts is almost a polemic against Paul in which he never articulates Atonement (albeit there are some interpolations). Luke's theology is repentance for the forgiveness of sin not Paul's substitutionary soteriology.
Why would God choose someone who had apparently never met Jesus, except in 'revelations', to write 7 authentic books in the New Testament (where Christians get most of their beliefs from). Couldn't he find a scholar, maybe one of the disciples who lived at the time of Jesus and was an ardent follower of his sayings? We are now called to choose sides, because they taught different things. Makes no sense to me.
God did send the course correction: The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine)
Paul was not just some ignorant Joe. Paul was a highly educated person who knew the Jewish laws, so there was a reason Jesus chose Him. Also, Paul eventually met Jesus’ disciples like Peter and James and they refereed to Him as brothers. You don’t need to choose a side because Paul did not contradict Jesus. Even in this video, Bart talked about how in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus claimed that He came down to give His Life as a RANSOM for many, yet he (Bart) doubts Jesus made such a statement. Throughout the Bible, Jesus kept on talking about sins being forgiven through His Blood and this message is throughout the Christian Bible, even in letters that were not written by Paul. Matthew 26:28 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
@onejohn2,26 ...Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ... I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ... Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ... That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol God Bless 🙏💯...
I hope we will always maintain the right to have intelligent discussions about religion based on research and reason. Megan, I love your new (?) glasses.
I think there are misconceptions of what atonement actually is. And to be honest, penal substitionary atonement is one of them. Paul is very clear when writing about Christ dying for us that we will be dying with him. So Jesus is a forerunner and not a substitute. Atonement in Jewish thinking is a ritual which uses the blood to clean or purify the holy place from the contamination of sins and impurity. The rituals thus allow for God to be invited to be with His people. Animal sacrifices could not cover or atone for willful sins. These were polluting the land and the only way to get rid of them were the death of the sinner or the people as a whole going to exile. Such sins are eliminated only by God's forgiveness. (e.g. David was forgiven by God after taking Bathsheba) Jesus' blood has the potential to clean the heavenly temple from our sins, even willful ones. That is stated in Hebrews, but not by Paul. When Paul speaks of what Jesus' blood does, he rather views it as something that purifies us like water (which is not a sacrifice). Or he makes the point that it is used to make a new covenant between God and people. This also is not a sacrifice. I recently read "Lamb of the Free" which deals with this topic quite extensively. I can highly recommend it. Thomas
It breaks my heart that our representatives have forgotten about the separation of church and state and that we elect truly dangerous people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. It is even more disturbing that she has so little insight that she doesn't realize how ridiculous she sounds.
I agree. It’s sad how much Dr Ehrman is either ignoring, or purposefully misrepresenting. Paul says sooooo much about how we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The rich man would’ve absolutely been advised to give his riches to the poor by Paul.
He never said they were "opposite". If you are able to exercise interpretation of discourse you can't summarize what he said with that statement. They were just different as they addresseddifferent public, inconsistent at times but perfectly reconciliable at others.
Hi Bart and Megan. I’ve watched most of the videos on this channel and lots of Bart’s debates on other channels. I’ve also just finished reading Bart’s “Heaven and Hell” book, and used it briefly in my doctoral dissertation - I am writing about how Mozart wrote his music in the “Requiem in D Minor” K626 to reflect the concepts of eternity, heaven, and hell. I just ordered the “Forged” and “Misquoting Jesus” books. I am on summer break and I am looking forward to reading those as well. I enjoyed watching this video. Your videos are always very informative, and for me personally, they are often a challenge to go find adequate answers in order to justify my Christian faith. I do have one question, especially since I’ve heard you (Bart) make a similar statement in a previous video. Towards the end of today’s video - around 32:55 - you say that you do not find it acceptable that God would require a sacrifice (even that of His Son) in order to forgive. You go on and say that it would make more sense to you if God simply chose to forgive, without the need for an atonement. With all due respect, and without trying to be rude to you or your audience, if there IS a God like the one described in Scripture, and if He DOES have the expectation for an atonement sacrifice in order to forgive, do you really think He would be concerned if Bart (or Florentin) or anyone else would have a problem with that, or if they found that to be “distasteful?” In all honesty, if God is who Scripture says He is, does He have to speak or behave in a way that would make you or me satisfied? Honest question. Hope you have a great day.
Hello. You're a man of reason. You are not a proponent of b-l-1-n-d faith. Could you please find and quote a single verse from the hundreds and hundreds of verses where Jesus himself preached that 👉 *he will d13 for the s1ns of the people*
Jesus knew the scriptures BETTER than any "ex-pe-r-t" or me or you. Do you agree? So why not let the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible settle the matter. The foundation of the Christian FAITH is NOT to be found in the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible. No sacrifice needed. No payment needed. What's more, the exact opposite preaching there: Repentence brings God's forgiveness. Sincere humbleness before God brings His forgiveness. Turning away from wrongdoings brings God's forgiveness. Following God's Law brings God's forgiveness.
The Lord's Prayer is the primary prayer taught by Jesus. It's an emphatic refutation of the atonement doctrine. "..... forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us......." People don't sacrifice their son to forgive others.
Remember, Jesus wa-rn-ed and f0r3t0ld about f3r0c10us w0lv3s in she-ep's clo-thi-ng. Deleve into your scriptures thoroughly to find out if you fell for a f3r0c10us w0lf in she-ep's clo-thi-ng 👉 Saul aka Paul of the Bible.
Compare GOP's stance on immigration and foreigners with Leviticus 19:33-34 _“‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God._
ur comment got 6 likes and mine was one of them, just shows people only follow the bible when it suits them. lets be honest serious christians are very few.
This is fantastic. The conceptualization of Jesus articulated here is identical to the Islamic understanding of Jesus and God. Jesus preached that we must seek repentance for our sins from God. God is truly Merciful: He did not need the blood of anyone for Him to forgive us, truly forgive us as if we never did that sin in the first place. It's very unfortunate the hold Paul has had on the beautiful religion of true Christianity. And btw, the Kingdom of God is going to come. And it will be lead by Jesus himself when he returns. And all Muslims intend to follow him when he does.
He didn't change it, I think. As Bart said, the people he persecuted already had the atonement belief. But I think I heard that he was not well liked by other church fathers of the time. His authority came from his charisma and successful founding of congregations everywhere, I think - but I am no expert on this.
🤭I was looking at the TH-cam start page and I read too quickly "Paul and Jesus ate dogs" and I thought to myself "these disinformation channels have gone too far" before realizing it was you and the title was actually "Paul and Jesus at Odds"
In other words the real Jesus was a monotheistic Jew. And Paul literally invented Christianity and turned Jesus into a God. And yes the Muslims have been saying this for 1500 years.
muslims also say that an illiterate shepard was given revelation by god in a cave telling him hes the chosen one and that he should have multiple wives and put his enemies to the swird.
He's trying to divorce Jesus's intention pre-death against what was preached after Jesus's resurrection. He's doing the normal divide and conquer technique, with half truths he's putting doubts into your mind that you are to use as evidence that something somewhere is amiss. Bart Ehrman is not a Christian, in fact he doesn't even believe in the historicity of the Bible as fact. He used to believe, but he couldn't overcome his feelings of the problem of evil and judgment and hence declared God anathema.
you guys really wasted a lot of time spending a serious chunk of this episode talking about Paul and Jesus. Now I'll NEVER know what foodstuffs Megan Lewis brings home from England!
Megan and Bart, this is really big stuff.. I mean really big- all of your videos are super interesting with fascinating facts and points of history.. THIS one, is so fundamentally important for understanding Christianity- everyone should know these things (Christians most especially!).. but, human nature being what it is- they won't.. :)
Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ... I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ... Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ... That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol God Bless 🙏💯...
I've often wondered if Jesus's saying that he will "give himself as ransom for many" is really part of atonement theology. Couldn't he have been saying that he will give himself up so many of his followers could get away and get free of the persecution of the Roman and Jewish authorities? This is far different than saying he will give himself up for the sins of the world.
Yes, that's a far difference than giving himself up for the sins of the world. Yet as history has shown, Jesus did give himself up, and his disciples didn't go anywhere after that, and they were persecuted by both the Romans and the Jews to the eventual point of losing their lives for their adherence to Jesus and the gospel message that they preached. So that difference turns out to be mere fancy which is not supported by history, not supported by the text, not supported by any evidence at all, except for the unjustified thoughts of people nearly 2,000 years later.
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus He did buy them more time by giving himself up when he did. Therefore, they were able to spread the word more gain more followers, and bring more people to Christianity. The spread of Christianity may have been greatly increased because he gave himself up when he did. A real number of his followers were persecuted and murdered, but at the same time, many were not. If they had all been killed, Christianity would not have spread like it did or have become as widespread as it was by the 5th century. There's a good deal of debate among scholars about just how much Christianity was persecuted during the first 4 centuries.
@24:32 Jesus preached to take up your cross, and follow you. The cross was an instrument of death. Jesus was calling you to die WITH HIM. When we believe in Jesus, we die vicariously WITH HIM, and this changes our lives. Checkmate, Bart.
When some one gives their life for a purpose that doesn't mean the are killed ,you just do all you can to make someone life better than it was it doesn't require death.😮
That was a great explanation about the Jesus vs. Paul question. Thanks, Bart. Thanks, Megan. I've never been a 'believer' but I've read the Bible cover to cover three times over the years. I've read most of the apocrypha. Despite the gigantic presence of Paul, is there really any question of who THE MAN is?? It's The Big J--Jesus. The contradictions between Jesus and Paul have have always bothered me. This discussion focused and crystallized the issues for me.
13:30 Paul doesn't talk about forgiveness He talks about penalty which is paid by Jesus He doesn't think God forgave Jesus 19:00 Jesus says to follow the 10 commandments to get into Heaven vs Paul says that won't work, you have to believe in the resurrection and be baptized 26:00 Paul quotes only 3 saying of Jesus : don't get a divorce, you should pay your preacher, and this is my body + blood (last meal)
Jesus taught to seek God's forgiveness through repentance, and following Him. Paul taught "how" Jesus made this possible. Also, Paul taught about repentance but did not emphasize it because he was writing to the churches, 'to the saints', who presumably had already done so. In addition, both Jesus and Paul taught that we must forgive one another and love one another. I don't see any contradiction between the two, rather just a different audience: Jesus to the unconverted and the converted; Paul (at least in his letters) to the converted only.
@@Robert_L_Peters I'm pretty sure I asked a question. And gave some advice. Do you expect him to list all his sources? Do you expect anyone watching to be able to tell you?
@@jonnylumberjack6223 okay. I do not necessarily expect him to list all sources ad nauseum. However, while he often cites NT verses, including in this episode, he did not name any sources supporting his contention that the atonement theology preceded Paul, or whatever, and this is at least the second time I have observed this or similar phenomenon/a. Yes, I asked the question here in the comments hoping someone would have an answer. I don't think that's such an unrealistic expectation...
@@Robert_L_Peters well, I hope you get your answer, hopefully there is someone out there who can provide it for you. Someone much, much better read than I, clearly!
Did Pilate not ask the Jews if they would rather have him execute Barabas and release Jesus? But the Jews insisted they wanted Pilate to crucify Jesus.
Doubtful. That's not how Roman occupation and rule worked. Jesus was crucified for political insurrection against Rome, as "king of the Jews." This was something that Roman occupying forces would not tolerate from any of the lands they conquered. Not because Pilate (a pagan Roman governor) gave a crap about inter-Jewish religious conflict. Pilate is said to have crucified thousands of Jews during this period
Um… 22:06 Ehrman: “they don’t notice that Paul never says things like repent and God will forgive you your sins.” Literally Paul: “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10 And “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31 And don’t forget: acts 29:21, Acts 26:20, Romans 2:4, Romans 6:1-4, and the list goes on. Paul includes repentance in his concept of faith. It is consistently one part of what having faith in Jesus means to him.
I have already moved pass the Jesus vs Paul seeming 'differences'. I am currently on the quest to seek to understand the stark contradiction of Jesus' own teachings on eternal life - compare the synoptic gospels with the gospel of John. By the way, i hope Dr Bart see that Jesus' teaching on the topic of salvation/eternal life (in the gospel of John) does not fundamentally contradict Paul's.
Ive enjoyed that the end segment themes have been off for a little while. Very fun being told that Bart will be on his Soap box only for the narrator to tell us to make a fool of him.
So the idea of the Atonement was already well established in Paul's day. So presumably there was a split (or splits?) very early in the church as how to interpret the death of Jesus. Is 25 years (or so) enough time for the other branch (ie those believing in an imminent apocalypse) to re-evaluate and think perhaps they had it wrong? Any evidence they converted to the Pauline sect? Was the destruction of the temple in 70 CE seen as the forecast apocalypse?
Great podcast Bart and Megan. Prof Erhman who do you think came up with the whole redemption scheme as a plot hole filler now that they’ve stopped scratching their heads when Jesus is executed and no kingdom of god arrives Do you think Jesus actually said why hast thou forsaken me? Seems to really fit the idea that Jesus had a messiah complex and was shocked that he was dying, no angels inbound to save him so he cried out that famous line.
I tend to asume anything the gospel writers say Jesus said is only loosely based on what he actually said combined with lots of additions
it's not like he had a videographer
I'm not even convinced it's loosely based.
@@SupremeScientisthow do you explain some Greek verses being obvious saying in Aramaic.
@Deewood9996 if it was coincidence then why doesn’t it make sense in Greek? I’m talking about the saying which Jesus speaks about the son of man being Lord of the sabbath. Read up on this, you might learn something, Bart has spoken on this too.
@@jessepelaez874 Just because they may have gotten certain things from Aramaic doesn't necessary mean they got them from Jesus.
In his introduction to Androcles and the Lion, Shaw says Paul made Christianity into as salvation religion (of which he says there were many) - whereas Jesus was talking about love- Bhakti- love of God, forgiving the debts of others, loving your enemy, seeing God in everyone, especially the least among us, and giving up our attachment to the rewards of the world in order to gain the kingdom of heaven.
That doesn't really gel with those passages that weren't edited out of the bible such as “I came not to bring peace, but a sword” and sell your cloak and buy a sword. These suggest that Jesus believed himself destined to lead the forces of the kingdom of god against the Romans. That is consistent with the Romans crucifying him (for sedition presumably). There would have been no reason to execute him if his message had all been about love and forgiveness.
You both are awesome thanks for putting this together. These are the right lever points to understand our culture and how some of us humans try and cope with our fear of life and death.
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9I reported your account for terrorism FYI. 👍
The talk starts at 7:00
scotch, biscuits, and labradoodles are all cool things but not what I clicked for 😂
Superb, illuminating discussion. THANK YOU SO MUCH, Megan and Bart!
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
Would you like to reason on the subject?
I will never turn you off. Keep talking.
honestly, if anything, I'd like more food talk. maybe just lengthen the episode so that we still get the jesus stuff
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9You’re spamming the same message is really annoying.
@@911amossadvanbomberplotaip9 The message of Jesus Christ is God is love. Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Laws and the Prophets. It is not Submission to the will of Allah, as dictated by Muhammed, who hates Jews and infidels. Most Muslim countries are ravaged by violence, genital mutilation, slavery, honor killings and child brides. This is not the will of God, but the will of that demon you call Allah.
It seems to me that Jesus, born under law, taught how impossible it is to enter the kingdom by law keeping. The sermon on the mount pointed out that very fact.
Paul, under grace, taught the way to enter the kingdom was thru the atonement of Jesus on the cross.
I find every episode interesting and engaging. I am not a believer, but have read the Bible through a couple of times trying to make sense of it and I have fortunately failed miserably. Neither my wife of 58 years or I were raised in church going Christian families and your broadcasts prove over and over that we have been very fortunate.
As a person raised as a beleiver I can confirm, you are very fortunate.
Jesus is God. Bible is not 🚫
The Quran clears up at all the fabrications and misquotes added to the original Bible, read the chapter called Maryam(Mary) it explains in details. Read further if you want to decode the Bible
@@Tchalla_supreme_ But doesn't someone need to then decode the Quran?
@@timandmonica the prophet Mohamed(pbuh) is the seal of the prophets starting with Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus -Et. If u read the Quran it talks about all these prophets and the messages they brought . The Quran confirms the original messages that those prophets brought and denies the additions/corruptions added by men throughout time. The Quran as the final revelation from the God of Abraham is for all mankind not for a specific ppl like the Bible or Torah which were both sent only to the children of Israel. As the last revelation it has no errors or contradictions and therefore does not need to be decoded as it is the perfect word of God. I leave you with the greetings of all the prophets. "Shalom alekhum” peace be unto you .
Lately I’ve been watching everything Dr. Ehrman in YT. One topic I haven’t found anything yet from Dr Ehrman, and therefore I’d like to kindly suggest this topic for an upcoming episode: what are the possible methods for dating the Gospels, which one Dr Ehrman prefers, and why. I think it’s an interesting topic because many arguments from Dr Ehrman start with the approximate date of when the gospels were written, but for laymen like me, that is not so obvious. If that subject has already been tackled by Dr Ehrman, either on YT or anywhere else, please point me in the right direction. Much appreciated!
It has already been covered, but I can’t remember precisely where. It’s possible, considering that Ehrman is now monetizing his lectures, that it has been removed from TH-cam, which would explain why you can’t find it.
He talks about it all the time... paleographic and radiocarbon analysis on manuscripts can helps us date these later copies.
Our oldest manuscript is a tiny fragment of a single page of the Gospel of John from the mid-2nd century. But we get our first full manuscripts of all four gospels by at least 200 CE.
To date the gospels back to the 1st century, I recommend searching google for a post on his blog called "When Were the Gospels Written? Digging Deeper for Context".
Paulinity is a very intriguing religion. One should always endeavor to call a thing by its name.
Paulinity was based on Egyptians who believed in judgement and rebirth for the bestest people, and Romanism which required all citizens to declare Emperors became gods at death as did other genius persons. German myths started to be heard of Wotan and Valhalla afterlife. The Jews freed from Babylon by Darius of Persia got to hear how life was a battle of Good vs Evil and a good mindset could lead to heaven. """Zoroastrianism (see Zoroastrianism) preaches the idea that Death is the work of the evil Angra Mainyu (see Angra Mainyu). The religion also asserts the existence of the soul (Fravasi) and the resurrection of the body at the time of the Great Renewal that will come one day. The soul, created by Ahura Mazda (see Ahura Mazda), is immortal and will be judged immediately after the death of the body. At the time of death, the soul must pass over a narrow bridge. At the entrance to the bridge stands the daenā, or conscience, a maiden who becomes identified with the individual soul. The good souls see a beautiful and dignified woman, while the evil souls see a witch. The good, led by the maiden, will pass over to the “House of Songs” or Paradise as angel-like beings who will serve as guardians of the living good people. The souls of those who have lived evil lives will be attacked by the witch and will fall as demons into the dark cold ravine or “House of Lies” that is Hell. According to some sources, it is the bridge itself, Chinvat, that decides on the fate of souls. Other sources say Ahura Mazda himself makes the judgment, and still others say that Mithra (see Mithra) presides over an actual trial of the individual, who must plead his or her own case.""". Only the Temple priests kept declaring Heaven did not exist, and Rome in 70ad destroyed the Temple in rebellion and killed all Jewish nobles. Greek Jews after this catastrophe then wrote the Bible and added heaven a bit, and bishops in verbal sermons really said aloud there was heaven. Jesus himself did not think people went to heaven, people only lived on Earth which could be made better and paradise by goodness....
6:45 the content begins
lol
Thx
Thank you for this info. I appreciate it.
Waiting for the day they chat about 'unimportant ' things for an elite hour just to annoy you. Lol
@@StingrayTomsFlorida who says it's annoying? And wouldn't you say it's kind of antisocial hope others would do something specifically to annoy another person?
Thomas Jefferson:
"...I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, & leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. these palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart."
His is the only rational approach to "Scripture" of any kind.
@@stavroskarageorgis4804 Fuck Scripture
Of course, Jefferson was likely talking about the passages from the Pauline Epistles that we now know didn't actually come from Paul.
Thomas Jefferson was important or just another paid freemason actor
@@MarmaladeINFP, do we know that?
I m an australian italian living in italy ...and i would always take picalillies from.england and branston pickles..and various chutneys ....and whereever i can i ll have a meat pie before leaving britain or australia
I grew up with steak and kidney pies every week but as Americanism takes over in Canada they have become impossible to find. I need to travel. My Nan made the various chutneys from her garden. I miss her and them.
@@davidhinkley you need to learn to cook so you can have kidney pie every time you want. 😊
You can’t tell the differences between Jesus and Paul because we don’t have the teachings of Jesus. The 4Gospels were written 10-20 years after Paul, largely to add & correct what Paul had to profess about Jesus.
You can’t “obey” God when being preached to. I think the real Jesus knew that and didn’t preach. That’s why we don’t have his ipsissima verba.
@annettecloutier2094 So I guess we should ignore Paul's doubtful teachings completely. Paul wasted a lot of of time writing all that stuff. Stick to the Gospels guys. They are completely reliable.
Ehhhh the gospel of Matthew is very Jewish Christian in nature and has the same exact wording as the didache, Luke , Thomas etc which leads to a mysterious Q. Which is good evidence that the living Jesus did in fact preach of a love message. Forgiveness, kindness, gentleness and him as king of a utopia where the dead were raised to be with us again . But of course Pagan Greco Roman world and political greedy Pharisees couldn’t dare have their power taken away. .
You still see it today. Peaceful people who have United are normally killed by the powerful. In fear of a revolution. So the Roman’s and Pharisees knew they were unpopular (Josephus confirms this) this popular preacher from the country was uniting the country folk and even some Judeans tired of the Pharisees were getting behind him as well. The gospels said they feared the people (both rome and Pharisees) I’m thinking rome didn’t fear the people and felt forced to crucify Jesus. They feared the people because jesus was really popular and sooner or later he’d have the numbers if he wanted he could maybe start a true revolution especially with his talk of God soon coming to help him with an army.
@@offgrid405 I agree not to listen to Paul but to say the gospels are reliable is a joke. Let me know when you discover all the contradictions in the gospels. It will take you a while. It looks like from yr statement that you have not read the gospels
@@Isaac5123 Did you not detect the sarcasm?
Eurman I've read all your books most of your lectures your a rare breed most brilliant people can't explain things in layman's terms You can.and reach millions more people in being able to articulate your points superior Bart .looking forward to another book 📖 .thanks Bart .
Thankyou for this episode! 08:58 I would really be interested in the authorship of Paul’s letters. Especially an explanation of the scholarly method to decide authorship. Is it mainly based on literary and theological differences? Is it the evidence which letters were know by the early church?
Are there alternative explanations for these differences?
Yes we want a full episode for letters of Paul and why some are wrongfully assigned to him
👍
All of that is guess work I am sure even at inception at the Hyppo and Carthage the so called scholars wouldn’t be able to verify what is written by any apostle or what was said by any of the characters in the tales. I’m sure the criteria for any determination made during the canonization whether at Nicean, Hyppo or Carthage and the source behind that criteria is more personally aligned to the expedience and practicality rather than any magical method of authentication/verification. Doubt any of those men were inspired by god 😂😂😂😂
Actually I think Paul is the founder of the sect of Christianity that end up being known as Christianity after exterminating all of their competition.
Sensible!
I believe you're correct about that, because Christianity has its roots in the RCC and John the Baptizer.
@@mickeydecurious also the roots of Pauline thinking could be traced to merkava mysticism and some dualism...because the fight between the flesh and the spirit is totally dualist. But also Pauline doctrine is rooted in apocalyptic Judaism of that time, as well as Jesus, but with a different application. But being fair with Paul, we don't know how much is actual Pauline thinking versus preconceived ideas that comes from the translators or escribes of those letters, at least the ones he actually did.
@@gusduenasArt
It's hard for me to be fair with Paul and allegend letters; considering those letters have borne justification for centuries of subjecting Women, Children, and "others" too bigotry, misogyny, hatred, violence, and control first by the RCC, then the Puritan Fundamentalist, now there's the EvilAngelcals who wants Their chance at Christian History.
Uhh..🤔 Don't do as the Temple priest does 👀 Jesus was right about that 😊
How can Paul be at odds since we know nothing else about the first Christians other than from his firstand accounts? All the Gospels were written much later.
The problem with the doctrine of atonement is that it implies that God is beholden to some kind of cosmic economic force that obligates him to receive a payment before he can forgive a debt. That suggests that God isn't all-powerful and didn't create everything, if there's this system above him that he has to obey like that. Otherwise he could just forgive us whenever he wants.
Think of an example involving a Lawyer, and The Bar. Except Father God IS THE BAR, and OUR COUNSELOR!
Now factor in the fact that this is ALMIGHTY GOD, and not a human (bribable, or inattentive, or forgetful, or slothful) lawyer.
Care to revise your statement 😅
@@Zb-uo2bl That means God has absolute power to set any standard he wishes. Nothing can force him to require blood sacrifice.
God has absolute power....wow, that is Too Overpowering for any discussion at all 😅
So why allow sin to start with....
No, to get back to a serious discussion, the Biblical History has to do with blood sacrifice for sin.
The Same culture which Prophetically Foretold Jesus birth, manner of death, result of ressurection. Seems Very strong evidence for What Happened!
Paul was from this culture, excelled in it. So suddenly, he started teaching his counter-story.....right!
@@nobodyatall7039and Don't loose sight of the Old Testament Sacrifices were temporary, The Son's Sacrifice was ONCE! Never again, for those who accepted it in repentance and believing Faith!
@@Zb-uo2bl If God "requires" anything at all, such as sacrifice, then he isn't omnipotent.
Weren't the Gospels written after the writings of Paul?
Yes
Yes, but, they were based on writings that had been in circulation for some time.
33:15 except that Metanoia doesn't mean to ask for forgiveness and to be sorry to God, right? This word we so often see as translated to "repent" actually means something closer to "shift your perspective" or "change your understanding"...
I really enjoyed the discussion about foods 😘. I was raised an atheist (and still am) and have read the Bible several times and find it confusing and enjoy this channel's information.
Atheist ... The problem with that is many people who are not crazy have inexplicable experiences. :-)😊
Bart's soapbox this week is my 24/7 365 soapbox!
I would say that Paul is the founder of christianity in the same way that Ray Kroc is the founder of McDonald's. As in, Ray Kroc wasn't Dick or Mac McDonald and Paul wasn't Jesus - but Ray, and Paul, were the guys who popularized it, spread it all over the world, got all the franchises going....
Without Ray Kroc, McDonald's would still be a family-run single store in San Bernardino - Without Paul, christianity would be an obscure (and by now possibly extinct) Jewish cult that never made an impact on the world. (possibly slight exaggerations there but not by much.) And Ray, like Paul, made a lot of changes to the plan after he took over....
So the removal of obligation for gentiles to follow the Jewish law is powdered milkshake?
And you think Paul did a good job in spreading christianity do you ? Paul changed what Jesus taught and has deceived most
@@Isaac5123 Paul did a very good job in setting up Christianity for its rise to become the dominant religion under Constantine and later rulers and nations.
What he did to the theology, the culture of early Christianity, his corruption of Jesus’s teachings - as others have put it, he took the religion of Jesus and transformed it into the religion about Jesus… he was effective at making it stick - every major branch of Christianity is Pauline and trinitarian now - I’m not making a judgement on whether that’s good or bad, except to note that it’s another strike against Christianity being a true religion since one self-proclaimed “apostle” was able to take it off the rails and completely change the whole faith like Paul apparently did.
That is, unless you’re going to claim Paul had it right while Peter, James and the others in Jerusalem had gotten Jesus all wrong, in which case Paul’s takeover might have been part of god’s plan? If you believe, of course.
Love this topic and subject! ❤
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
The DIscussion starts at around 7 minutes, just in case anybody wants to know.
Paul said God is 3 in one. But Jesus (ph) said God is one...
But Jesus didn't produce suicide bombers.
Suicide is a sin in the suggesred religion
@@thesavior6291 if Jesus is one with God as u claim and if Jesus was the same in the old testament then he may have taught something worse than suicide bombing... Killing of children. After all Jesus is 'one with God' so the old testament atrocities are just as much his.
@@thesavior6291 The christian nations that are supposedly following Jesus are far worse than some little suicide bombers.
I think there should be an in dept discussion, dedicated to the relationships, between Jesus, James, (brother of Jesus), Peter, (Bishop of Jerusalem), and Paul... What they agreed on, what they disagreed about, the final outcomes, and relationships going forward.
Mk. 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Ransom means "consideration paid or demanded for the release of someone or something from captivity".
All written (invented and added) under Paul's influence. The four Gospels came decades AFTER Paul had taken the new faith over.
@ on what evidence is your opinion based❓
YES. PLEASE do the weaponization discussion. As a pastor I might end up recommending to our congregation.
For some reason the first adbreak about the podcast only came through my left speaker, and music was coming through on the right
"the religion of Jesus is forgiveness. the religion about Jesus is atonement..." Profound
Which church are preaching the gospel of the kingdom around the world to all nations as Jesus Christ said? Matthew 10:16, 24:14, 28:19-20, Mark 13:10..
@@vusimngomezulu2500 any Christian church
9th@@vusimngomezulu2500
The religion of Jesus is ISLAM
Love these smart discussions, the give and take is really well done. You're both pro's and their videos show that. Reading one of Barts books rn- "Lost Christianities " funny thing is - as I read, the voice in my head sounds like Bart! Keep on...
If you forgive someone their debt (13:10), they have to declare it as income to the IRS.
Ha ha!
Thank you so much for such a great episode!
Based on the available sources, Jesus and Paul had very little in common.
Paul was explicit in his lack of knowledge about or concern for Jesus, as he was only teaching/preaching Christ (which is quite different from anything else found in that era of Christianity/Judaism).
I can show you many sources in Aramaic and Sumerian languages of understanding the Truth of Scripture. Do you only read english? I have documented over 7 ancient plus 5 modern languages with most of what you have never read.
Shalom
Blessings from Africa
Where did the name Jesus come from? Please don't say the bible, then you are ignorant of scriptures. Find Ancient history and discover a whole world of truths by opening your heart and mind, to the unexpected journey of truth.
Do you know Greek, as this will open your mind to knowing more of where the name jesus came from. The current calendar we all use (Gregorian calendar) was started when?
From that answer you will have 1400 years of the Biblical Calender that dates back 2.7million years, to the birth of the universe including Adam and Eve.
If you want to see heaven, lie on you back and look up, that's the HEAVENS. The place you want to go to one day is "the sea of fire and glass" sorry no heaven. You might have also seen statues of jesus and paintings of him. Where did the images originate from? You will fall off your to discover the truth of most beliefs on earth today. Over 80% of the bible has been changed, to create a web of deceit and BS that you would not believe. Please find everything that you believe in outside of your bible.
Shalom
Blessings from Africa
This is incorrect. Who commissioned Paul to spread the news of Jesus being the Christ, and the atonement for our sins? Jesus did, so we should listen to Paul because he explains what the gospels do not. Paul has explained the consequences of Jesus’s death in his letters which give us a greater insight into the plan of salvation God set into motion.
Paul was obsessed with Jesus. However he projected his own new age ideas on Jesus .
@@gabrielmiller1226 This is a wrong understanding of Paul. Read his letters to start with. Paul has explained what no gospel writer did. He has given us insight in the plan of God which the apostles before him never saw.
Love you Megan....🤗🌎✌️, you guys are so interesting...🤓🧐, I love watching your show. Thank you so much... And God bless you...🌟😇...
I would love to see Tovia Singer and Bart do a podcast together
I always forget that you are here in NC. I would absolutely LOVE to attend one of your lectures or courses live. Please let me know if that’s a possibility.
Religion of Jesus is forgiveness
Religion about jesus is atonement
Hm
Jesus actually taught Islam but after him ppl changed his message.
Mathew 9.13 - God prefers mercy not sacrifice.
Heb 9 (unknown author) a sacrifice is needed.
Deut 12.31 - man sacrifice is pagan.
Mark 8.12 - this generation gets no sign.
Mathew 12 the later gospeI adds sign of jona... - more change.
Mark 12.29 God is one.
Numbers 23.19 - God is not a man.
James 1.18 - God does not change.
Any verse saying Jesus is God applies to others.
Jon 10.30 father & I are 1.
Jon 17.21 me and my disciples are one like God.
So is God 1 or 15? Can't be 3 in 1 is consistent.
Here is a verse overwritten.
Luke 3.22 nrsvue footnotes said earlier manuscripts say h spirit says TODAY I BEGET THEE - as an aduIt so Jesus is human only.
Ehrman said to licona gospeI accounts are not reliable.
Mark 15.40, mathew 27.55, luke 23.46 all say Jesus's crew were at a distance so likely didn't see.
They all say Simon carried the cros.
Jon says disciples were at foot of the cros but denies simon who many think was switched with Jesus carried it.
This proves Quran 4.157 right, they didn't see a cruciFICTION but guess.
As for resurrection.
Mark 16.9 to 20 are added
Mathew 28 & luke 24 disagree if final meeting is in galili or not.
Jon 20 says go to other tribes but this contradicts disciples fighting pauI over going to other tribes & Iaw.
Mathew 15.24 says I am only sent to my tribe.
So Monotheism, no sacrifice needed, no cruciFICTION or resurrection but Iaw & tribal ministry just like Islam says is Jesus's original message in the 4 gospels.
-
James the leader after Jesus didn't say a word of paul's new Iawless cruciFICTION faith but faith then works like Islam says, he is a buffer between the real teachings and PauIy-theism.
Mathew 21.38 to 43 says the cruciFICTION attempt will make his tribe lose the blessings to the fruitful aka Ismail in genesis 17, Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him is from that tribe.
Mark 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Matthew 26:28
“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
You summed it up perfectly.
I'd appreciate it if you had time stamps for each segment.
As an English professor, I'm going to split hairs with Bart about who founded the Christian religion. He makes clear that Paul was not the originator of the theology of atonement. The earliest Christians came up with this explanation for why Jesus "had" to die. But "theology" is not the same thing as "religion." At its core, religion is an organized social institution based on a set of shared beliefs. Paul is the one who travelled all over the near east to found the first Christian churches, and he provided the governing rules and guidance for those churches (such as: it is ok for Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians to eat together.) So I do think it is appropriate to say that Paul founded the Christian Church. Is that the same as saying he funded the Christian religion? I would say yes, but it depends on whether you see religions as being a set of beliefs or you see it as an organized social institution.
_Paul is the one who travelled all over the near east to found the first Christian churches……So I do think it is appropriate to say that Paul founded the Christian Church._
Your assertion that Paul _founded the first Christian churches_ is incorrect.
Paul's own writings makes it hard to believe that he founded any church, much less _the Christian Church._
Paul was maybe *the* founder of Gentile Christianity as it has persevered to this day, and given that that's the vast majority of Christianity, I second this hair-splitting.
oh spit hair about how many things Professor E get wrong about Biblical text in this podcast ...
A system of beliefs *and associated practices relative to, well, human noumena set apart from other noumena and phenomena and 'forbidden', adherence to which defines the membership of a community, a Church.
@@stavroskarageorgis4804 You have definitely confused church and religion.
A group of people, gathered together for the purpose of worship; a church.
It seems to me that John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews had a new and mystical take on the Logos doctrine -- that the "word" of God (specifically as Psalm 33:6 describes it as "the breath of His mouth") literally, even hyper-literally, became the man Jesus, resulting in an "incarnate Torah" -- not an "incarnate God." Then they developed this so that the "death" of the Torah had the effect of canceling "the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15) and its accompanying transgressions; while the resurrection of this "word/Torah" inaugurated the "new covenant." This is where they get expressions like "blood of the covenant" and "[law] nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), even in conjunction with Christian Jews being "zealous for the Torah," which otherwise would be contradictory. In a word, they believed in the death and resurrection of the Torah. Taking it one more step, they taught this was a one-time event and no repentance is possible for sin against this new covenant (Hebrews 10:26-31). One other aspect of this doctrine is probably what led to the erroneous belief that Jesus is God -- and that is the Christian bible's three-time mention of "creation THROUGH the Word/Torah" - John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2. This brings us back to Psalm 33:6, "By the word of the Lord, the heavens were made, and with the breath of His mouth, all their host." The Word is nothing other than the speech of God which WAS God but became a man, according to John. Paul and the author of Hebrews agree.
I love listening to Dr. Ehrman and i confess i have a crush on Megan...
26:20 where did Paul get these quotes from?
Presumably oral tradition, which begs the question- If these quotes were common enough among early Christians at the time for Paul to incorporate them into his writings, why do they only appear in Luke? Specifically doing it in remembrance of him is only found there. Mark and Matthew's recounting of this event doesn't convey a continuous ritualistic partaking, but more of a one time occurrence at the last supper specifically.
EDIT: After reading 1 Cor 11:23-26 it appears that this was specifically revealed to Paul by Jesus. This would explain the fact that the recurring aspect only appears in Luke if the writer were copying from Paul's letters (which is an argument against the historicity of Acts- That 'Luke' was copying from Paul and altering the events to fit a theological agenda held by Luke)
It would be so cool if Bart put some pink, purple, and blue coloring on his beard and mustache to match with Megan's hair! Imagine how awesome it would look with their matching round glasses too when they both are side-by-side on the screen! I think that would really boost the show! Bart, if you're able to get this message, let's make it happen! 😂
Also, I always saw the two strains of forgiveness vs atonement but I was instructed to be a good little soldier and trust that they were reconciled. They would have been better to have allowed some of us to just pick the first and better option because, like so many others, that was the first crack that showed me the light that led me out of Christianity and eventually all religion.
The light is still there:
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
Yes, about curry being quintessentially British food. Do you remember Peter Ustinov's film "Stiff Upper Lips." When the company gets upset by brawling, oversexed Italians, Emily's aunt suggests "Let's go somewhere more British… India!"
Right? 😂 It's British as in "British Raj".
What is striking is that Luke/Acts is almost a polemic against Paul in which he never articulates Atonement (albeit there are some interpolations). Luke's theology is repentance for the forgiveness of sin not Paul's substitutionary soteriology.
I definitely find the doctrine of substitutionary attonement reprehensible
Oh that because unlike myself I haven't sinned ... Whereas other folk have guilt trips.
@russellmiles2861 well sin isn't a real thing, so...
thank you,dott Bart, really enjoyed it 🎉🎉🎉
Read ‘Paul and Jesus’ by James tabor. It is really that good.
18:54 is it really that radical? Micah 6:7-9 has the same sentiment
Why would God choose someone who had apparently never met Jesus, except in 'revelations', to write 7 authentic books in the New Testament (where Christians get most of their beliefs from). Couldn't he find a scholar, maybe one of the disciples who lived at the time of Jesus and was an ardent follower of his sayings? We are now called to choose sides, because they taught different things. Makes no sense to me.
God did send the course correction:
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
@@TruthIsABitterPillToSwallow
lol
Paul was not just some ignorant Joe.
Paul was a highly educated person who knew the Jewish laws, so there was a reason Jesus chose Him.
Also, Paul eventually met Jesus’ disciples like Peter and James and they refereed to Him as brothers.
You don’t need to choose a side because Paul did not contradict Jesus.
Even in this video, Bart talked about how in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus claimed that He came down to give His Life as a RANSOM for many, yet he (Bart) doubts Jesus made such a statement.
Throughout the Bible, Jesus kept on talking about sins being forgiven through His Blood and this message is throughout the Christian Bible, even in letters that were not written by Paul.
Matthew 26:28
“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
We follow Paul, that's why.
Yes, Bart has once more hit the nail right on the head.
Really .. you didn't notice he called Paul a disciple.
He is a liar and deceiver.
@onejohn2,26 ...Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ...
I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ...
Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ...
That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol
God Bless 🙏💯...
I hope we will always maintain the right to have intelligent discussions about religion based on research and reason. Megan, I love your new (?) glasses.
The doctrine of atonement IS distasteful 1000% agreed
I think there are misconceptions of what atonement actually is. And to be honest, penal substitionary atonement is one of them.
Paul is very clear when writing about Christ dying for us that we will be dying with him. So Jesus is a forerunner and not a substitute.
Atonement in Jewish thinking is a ritual which uses the blood to clean or purify the holy place from the contamination of sins and impurity. The rituals thus allow for God to be invited to be with His people.
Animal sacrifices could not cover or atone for willful sins. These were polluting the land and the only way to get rid of them were the death of the sinner or the people as a whole going to exile. Such sins are eliminated only by God's forgiveness. (e.g. David was forgiven by God after taking Bathsheba)
Jesus' blood has the potential to clean the heavenly temple from our sins, even willful ones. That is stated in Hebrews, but not by Paul.
When Paul speaks of what Jesus' blood does, he rather views it as something that purifies us like water (which is not a sacrifice). Or he makes the point that it is used to make a new covenant between God and people. This also is not a sacrifice.
I recently read "Lamb of the Free" which deals with this topic quite extensively. I can highly recommend it.
Thomas
I find the atonement is a scarlet thread that ties the whole Bible together.
Well good thing penal substitutional atonement is not in any scriptures. It is a Calvinist invention
@@Maximos384 exactly
Thank you.
It breaks my heart that our representatives have forgotten about the separation of church and state and that we elect truly dangerous people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. It is even more disturbing that she has so little insight that she doesn't realize how ridiculous she sounds.
Pretty good for change. Great questions and legit attempts at answers.
The fact that many people have not understood the teachings of Paul and Jesus, does noy mean their teachings are opposite.
I agree. It’s sad how much Dr Ehrman is either ignoring, or purposefully misrepresenting.
Paul says sooooo much about how we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The rich man would’ve absolutely been advised to give his riches to the poor by Paul.
@@hza1203So why would he not mention that as a requirement for salvation if it was so important for Jesus?
He never said they were "opposite". If you are able to exercise interpretation of discourse you can't summarize what he said with that statement. They were just different as they addresseddifferent public, inconsistent at times but perfectly reconciliable at others.
Hi Bart and Megan.
I’ve watched most of the videos on this channel and lots of Bart’s debates on other channels.
I’ve also just finished reading Bart’s “Heaven and Hell” book, and used it briefly in my doctoral dissertation - I am writing about how Mozart wrote his music in the “Requiem in D Minor” K626 to reflect the concepts of eternity, heaven, and hell.
I just ordered the “Forged” and “Misquoting Jesus” books. I am on summer break and I am looking forward to reading those as well.
I enjoyed watching this video. Your videos are always very informative, and for me personally, they are often a challenge to go find adequate answers in order to justify my Christian faith.
I do have one question, especially since I’ve heard you (Bart) make a similar statement in a previous video.
Towards the end of today’s video - around 32:55 - you say that you do not find it acceptable that God would require a sacrifice (even that of His Son) in order to forgive.
You go on and say that it would make more sense to you if God simply chose to forgive, without the need for an atonement.
With all due respect, and without trying to be rude to you or your audience, if there IS a God like the one described in Scripture, and if He DOES have the expectation for an atonement sacrifice in order to forgive, do you really think He would be concerned if Bart (or Florentin) or anyone else would have a problem with that, or if they found that to be “distasteful?”
In all honesty, if God is who Scripture says He is, does He have to speak or behave in a way that would make you or me satisfied?
Honest question.
Hope you have a great day.
Hello. You're a man of reason. You are not a proponent of b-l-1-n-d faith.
Could you please find and quote a single verse from the hundreds and hundreds of verses where Jesus himself preached that 👉 *he will d13 for the s1ns of the people*
Jesus knew the scriptures BETTER than any "ex-pe-r-t" or me or you.
Do you agree?
So why not let the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible settle the matter.
The foundation of the Christian FAITH is NOT to be found in the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible. No sacrifice needed. No payment needed.
What's more, the exact opposite preaching there: Repentence brings God's forgiveness. Sincere humbleness before God brings His forgiveness. Turning away from wrongdoings brings God's forgiveness. Following God's Law brings God's forgiveness.
The Lord's Prayer is the primary prayer taught by Jesus. It's an emphatic refutation of the atonement doctrine.
"..... forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us......."
People don't sacrifice their son to forgive others.
Remember, Jesus wa-rn-ed and f0r3t0ld about f3r0c10us w0lv3s in she-ep's clo-thi-ng. Deleve into your scriptures thoroughly to find out if you fell for a f3r0c10us w0lf in she-ep's clo-thi-ng 👉 Saul aka Paul of the Bible.
@@Truth.is.Bitter Did you actually read my entire post or my question for Bart?
Compare GOP's stance on immigration and foreigners with Leviticus 19:33-34 _“‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God._
ur comment got 6 likes and mine was one of them, just shows people only follow the bible when it suits them.
lets be honest serious christians are very few.
This is fantastic. The conceptualization of Jesus articulated here is identical to the Islamic understanding of Jesus and God. Jesus preached that we must seek repentance for our sins from God. God is truly Merciful: He did not need the blood of anyone for Him to forgive us, truly forgive us as if we never did that sin in the first place. It's very unfortunate the hold Paul has had on the beautiful religion of true Christianity. And btw, the Kingdom of God is going to come. And it will be lead by Jesus himself when he returns. And all Muslims intend to follow him when he does.
Paul was not really an apostle.
Who made him an apostle?
Is there any scholarships for Bart's courses for those who don't have a spare dime? Widows that don't have a mite? The disabled who can't work?
I don’t understand where Paul got his authority to change the religion
He didn't change it, I think. As Bart said, the people he persecuted already had the atonement belief. But I think I heard that he was not well liked by other church fathers of the time. His authority came from his charisma and successful founding of congregations everywhere, I think - but I am no expert on this.
Yeah for real. Good point
Nothing was changed.
@@edward1412It was Jesus taught forgiveness and Paul taught atonement.
His authority came from the Flavian.
Talking about food, what did the early christians eat?
It depends where they lived
In Assyria we deoended on grains, vegetables and some proteins from cattle we raised
I wonder when fasting started to mean "eating fish".
🤭I was looking at the TH-cam start page and I read too quickly "Paul and Jesus ate dogs" and I thought to myself "these disinformation channels have gone too far" before realizing it was you and the title was actually "Paul and Jesus at Odds"
A good demonstration of how truth can become legend. Although in this case, I think the word "hot" was missing. jk
Thanks for another wonderful episode!
In other words the real Jesus was a monotheistic Jew. And Paul literally invented Christianity and turned Jesus into a God. And yes the Muslims have been saying this for 1500 years.
muslims also say that an illiterate shepard was given revelation by god in a cave telling him hes the chosen one and that he should have multiple wives and put his enemies to the swird.
Even prominent historians must surely have a problem with that jc actually said ( who was there to record it? ) and what is reported he said...
I don't understand something. What does Ehrman mean when he says we need to distinguish what jesus says from what the gospels say?
He's trying to divorce Jesus's intention pre-death against what was preached after Jesus's resurrection.
He's doing the normal divide and conquer technique, with half truths he's putting doubts into your mind that you are to use as evidence that something somewhere is amiss.
Bart Ehrman is not a Christian, in fact he doesn't even believe in the historicity of the Bible as fact. He used to believe, but he couldn't overcome his feelings of the problem of evil and judgment and hence declared God anathema.
Paul is appalling 😂 I just like saying that
Beyond excited for this one
you guys really wasted a lot of time spending a serious chunk of this episode talking about Paul and Jesus. Now I'll NEVER know what foodstuffs Megan Lewis brings home from England!
❤️
And you are???
Is it possible to follow them both .....great question
Jesus and Paul were never at odds with each other..... This channel is creating a false narrative about them, and Bart is going right along with it.
How exactly do you know if your narrative is not the false one?
@@hazok4351 I have no narrative.
@@tryme3969 yeah, sure.
Did you watch the video?
@@yallimsorry5983 Yep.
Megan and Bart, this is really big stuff.. I mean really big- all of your videos are super interesting with fascinating facts and points of history.. THIS one, is so fundamentally important for understanding Christianity- everyone should know these things (Christians most especially!).. but, human nature being what it is- they won't.. :)
Paul is the false Apostle spoken of in Revelation 2:2
Because of Paul's word salad, 99.9 of christians, will not be saved
He is the one Jesus spoke of, when he warned the apostles.
He is certainly the one being rebuked in James 2:17-26 and probably 4:13-17 as well.
@@JopJio agreed
Lol 😂😂😂 ... I'm sorry for laughing but, 😱 omg ...
I think God is a lot more tolerant, loving and understanding than many folks would have a person believe ...
Humans seem to love to put restrictions on God and to try to put God in a box ... Something to think about I believe... Lets let God be God and just try to live our lives with loving-kindness ... Like Jesus told us ...
That's my 2 cents for whatever it's worth ...lol
God Bless 🙏💯...
And I assume you count yourself among the .1 percent?
(Just a wild guess on my part.)
I've often wondered if Jesus's saying that he will "give himself as ransom for many" is really part of atonement theology. Couldn't he have been saying that he will give himself up so many of his followers could get away and get free of the persecution of the Roman and Jewish authorities?
This is far different than saying he will give himself up for the sins of the world.
Yes, that's a far difference than giving himself up for the sins of the world.
Yet as history has shown, Jesus did give himself up, and his disciples didn't go anywhere after that, and they were persecuted by both the Romans and the Jews to the eventual point of losing their lives for their adherence to Jesus and the gospel message that they preached.
So that difference turns out to be mere fancy which is not supported by history, not supported by the text, not supported by any evidence at all, except for the unjustified thoughts of people nearly 2,000 years later.
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus He did buy them more time by giving himself up when he did. Therefore, they were able to spread the word more gain more followers, and bring more people to Christianity.
The spread of Christianity may have been greatly increased because he gave himself up when he did.
A real number of his followers were persecuted and murdered, but at the same time, many were not. If they had all been killed, Christianity would not have spread like it did or have become as widespread as it was by the 5th century.
There's a good deal of debate among scholars about just how much Christianity was persecuted during the first 4 centuries.
@24:32 Jesus preached to take up your cross, and follow you.
The cross was an instrument of death.
Jesus was calling you to die WITH HIM.
When we believe in Jesus, we die vicariously WITH HIM, and this changes our lives.
Checkmate, Bart.
When some one gives their life for a purpose that doesn't mean the are killed ,you just do all you can to make someone life better than it was it doesn't require death.😮
That was a great explanation about the Jesus vs. Paul question. Thanks, Bart. Thanks, Megan. I've never been a 'believer' but I've read the Bible cover to cover three times over the years. I've read most of the apocrypha. Despite the gigantic presence of Paul, is there really any question of who THE MAN is?? It's The Big J--Jesus. The contradictions between Jesus and Paul have have always bothered me.
This discussion focused and crystallized the issues for me.
13:30 Paul doesn't talk about forgiveness
He talks about penalty which is paid by Jesus
He doesn't think God forgave Jesus
19:00 Jesus says to follow the 10 commandments to get into Heaven vs Paul says that won't work, you have to believe in the resurrection and be baptized
26:00 Paul quotes only 3 saying of Jesus : don't get a divorce, you should pay your preacher, and this is my body + blood (last meal)
Thank you dr Burt Eherman I kip your saying thanks to Meaghan also have a pleasant day
I think Jesus also says that one’s sins will be forgiven to the extent that one forgives others who have sinned against one’s self.
Jesus taught to seek God's forgiveness through repentance, and following Him. Paul taught "how" Jesus made this possible. Also, Paul taught about repentance but did not emphasize it because he was writing to the churches, 'to the saints', who presumably had already done so. In addition, both Jesus and Paul taught that we must forgive one another and love one another. I don't see any contradiction between the two, rather just a different audience: Jesus to the unconverted and the converted; Paul (at least in his letters) to the converted only.
Again I am forced to wonder what Bart's sources are for Christianity prior to Paul?
Do you expect him to tell you all his sources on every episode of every podcast? I'm sure his books will have the information you are looking for.
@@jonnylumberjack6223 do you have any ideas or are you just arguing?
@@Robert_L_Peters I'm pretty sure I asked a question. And gave some advice. Do you expect him to list all his sources? Do you expect anyone watching to be able to tell you?
@@jonnylumberjack6223 okay. I do not necessarily expect him to list all sources ad nauseum. However, while he often cites NT verses, including in this episode, he did not name any sources supporting his contention that the atonement theology preceded Paul, or whatever, and this is at least the second time I have observed this or similar phenomenon/a.
Yes, I asked the question here in the comments hoping someone would have an answer. I don't think that's such an unrealistic expectation...
@@Robert_L_Peters well, I hope you get your answer, hopefully there is someone out there who can provide it for you. Someone much, much better read than I, clearly!
What do u mean by salvation?
Did Pilate not ask the Jews if they would rather have him execute Barabas and release Jesus? But the Jews insisted they wanted Pilate to crucify Jesus.
Doubtful. That's not how Roman occupation and rule worked. Jesus was crucified for political insurrection against Rome, as "king of the Jews." This was something that Roman occupying forces would not tolerate from any of the lands they conquered. Not because Pilate (a pagan Roman governor) gave a crap about inter-Jewish religious conflict. Pilate is said to have crucified thousands of Jews during this period
@@Athanatos250 So the gospel got it wrong about the proposed Barabas exchange?
No sound, still wonderful to see you both, God bless, 😊
how would we know if paul diverged from jesus teaching or not by comparing paul's jesus with mark's jesus that came after paul like?
Um… 22:06 Ehrman: “they don’t notice that Paul never says things like repent and God will forgive you your sins.”
Literally Paul: “For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10
And
“The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31
And don’t forget: acts 29:21, Acts 26:20, Romans 2:4, Romans 6:1-4, and the list goes on.
Paul includes repentance in his concept of faith. It is consistently one part of what having faith in Jesus means to him.
You might be familiar with the Gospel of Philip found at the Nag Hammadi library? Perhaps the first to take Jesus' death as a salvific intention?
I have already moved pass the Jesus vs Paul seeming 'differences'.
I am currently on the quest to seek to understand the stark contradiction of Jesus' own teachings on eternal life - compare the synoptic gospels with the gospel of John.
By the way, i hope Dr Bart see that Jesus' teaching on the topic of salvation/eternal life (in the gospel of John) does not fundamentally contradict Paul's.
Ive enjoyed that the end segment themes have been off for a little while. Very fun being told that Bart will be on his Soap box only for the narrator to tell us to make a fool of him.
So the idea of the Atonement was already well established in Paul's day. So presumably there was a split (or splits?) very early in the church as how to interpret the death of Jesus. Is 25 years (or so) enough time for the other branch (ie those believing in an imminent apocalypse) to re-evaluate and think perhaps they had it wrong? Any evidence they converted to the Pauline sect?
Was the destruction of the temple in 70 CE seen as the forecast apocalypse?
You forgot the Sermon of the Mount. There is described how to belong to the kindom of god, is the new law, the new alliance.
Great podcast Bart and Megan.
Prof Erhman who do you think came up with the whole redemption scheme as a plot hole filler now that they’ve stopped scratching their heads when Jesus is executed and no kingdom of god arrives
Do you think Jesus actually said why hast thou forsaken me? Seems to really fit the idea that Jesus had a messiah complex and was shocked that he was dying, no angels inbound to save him so he cried out that famous line.