I am 100% behind M2K on allowing you to choose which FD you want. So many stages are so beautiful and have awesome music. Would suck to see it go to waste. If Midgar doesn't make it, at least allow it so that we can use the FD version.
@@4137Swords Yes there were copyright problems with music at Smash 4's first Evo, the blast zones were different on a lot of them, grass can change a character's speed, and the shape of some of the stages allowed certain characters to cheese a match. I know Omega Palutena's Temple could be used as a substitute for Final Destination in the event that a player is bothered by the flashes but I wasn't aware of any other Omega stage being legal.
The only issue is copyrighted music. I can see big events just outright banning omegas to avoid that entirely. They could just turn off those music but they'd have to do it everytime and I can see TOs just taking the easier route of banning omegas.
The problem with the omegas is that the bottom of each of them are all differently shaped and can affect recovering back to stage. People don't really seem to think about this since it actually can give some characters an inherent advantage. Example: the Minor Circuit stage has a small lip on the side that completely messes up teleportation recoveries. Trying to recover from directly below as Mewtwo or Palutena is basically a death sentence.
Just FYI Sakurai has said that all Omega and Battlefield stages are going to have the exact same collision and blastzones so theoretically all stages omega and battle fields should be fine to interchange with the normal fd and battlefield
Duuuude they approved 10 single stages with 2 more for doubles. And they approved on labbing 17 more stages to see what else could be added... Holy hell the potential for stage selection in this game is incredible!
And Esam wants to fucking limit the shit with a Seasonal Stage Selection. Fuck that, it could be unfair to certain characters to not have their best stage available.
The fact that 10 to about 23 stages is considered an "incredible selection" really says a lot about how stringent their standards are, huh?... Makes me wonder how much potential for competitively fair stages that can be designed even exists, because it sure doesn't seem like a lot...
That's the difference between "fun" and whatever competitive is. Hey, compared to the stage selection in other fighting games there's definitely nothing to complain about here!
Kalos pkmn league isn't just completely flat. When it's not transformed, it's basic layout has those 2 platforms. You're thinking of it's omega form, which is exactly the same just without the 2 platforms.
Sakurai: we’ve made 103 stages! Competitive smash players: Let’s use like 15 XD Yes I know why they’re banned but it’s funny to see all the banned stages.
@@rusty8311 It doesn't tilt. Pretty sure that's why glitchy stuff happened. It's worth labbing now. It's a pretty stage and it has a unique layout. Better than five different battlefields 😏 (triggering the masses in 5, 4, 3...)
Claire Some characters literally die if they hit a ceiling under a stage while other characters can ride up to the ledge free. It’s not a matter of skill, it just doesn’t work with some recoveries.
AyAyron that would be dumb under any other circumstances, but we're talking about a horribly jank broken stage here that we don't have to put up with anymore, why should we keep it if we want the fairest stage picks?
It doesn't even matter what these two say. When the game comes out everyone is going to pitch in what stage should be allowed or not. I have a feeling there's going to be more variety than what Zero and M2K suggested.
@@goldsmith8502 i remember the stage would kinda change angles form time to time but if that doesnt happen anymore then isnt it fine? what if some people like that stage?
@@-8h- Magicant is certainly more fair than Angel Land, i'll say that much. It'd be a pretty neat stage, and its an interesting layout. My problem is that "not every stage can be battlefield", and if Frigate Orpheon is legal (even if just a counterpick), then so should Magicant. I mean, it is _the_ best 3DS stage. It shouldn't need to be a "maybe," and the same goes to Frigate Orpheon imo. They're fine counterpick stages.
I think it would be cool to be able to pick hazards on or off for Pokémon Stadium. Obviously not Stadium 2, but you essentially get another stage slot if you allow people to choose between neutral and counterpick
Two things in case someone sees this, Kalos Pokémon League has two platforms over the ledges by default, and Dracula’s Castle doesn’t actually have walkoffs
Already there are 7 definitive starters without needing to turn of hazards (while not combining tri-plats), 2 counters (3 with dubs) and of the 14 questionable ones, a few would be yes if hazards are toggled off. We have plenty of stages for competitive play and I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't have more than 10-12 legal stages. So if we go with the, "all tri-plats are the same," rule from Sm4sh and selected 3 question marks to be legal with hazards off we have 10 stages total for 1v1s with being 5-6 being starters.
A minimum of 10 legal stages were discussed in this video: Lylat is 100% going to be legal (despite ZeRo's trauma), and Pokemon Stadium was incorrectly labeled "?" by the editor, even though both ZeRo and m2k agreed that it would obviously be legal. Depending on how the hazard toggle affects transformations and platform layouts, a rough maximum of ~20 stages is possible.
@@Aego384 It isn't. Saying Bayo can kill you at 30% is such a casual thing to say, SDI exists. On another note yeah, the top blastzone once you are on top of the Halberd is very low, if the hazardless version fixes that or is just the floating platform then it should be legal.
@The Zebras There are better examples of characters that kill earlier with an SDI multiplier of x0.0 like ZSS. Ding Dong kills at those percents on top of the platform too. Samus can Uthrow - > Uair - > UpB at 0%. Zero says Bayo because he is still butthurt for losing against Salem at EVO lmao.
She hasn't really caused any. Like there's a couple with low ceilings like Halberd, but that's not exclusive to her either. Just about anyone who excels at ladder combos can kill at low percentage there.
Dracula's Castle is actually not a walk off. It looks like one but it isn't. The staircase is crumbled halfway through making the stage float in the air as it should. It's still pretty big though so we'll have to see.
Stadium 1 literally has no damaging hazards so all hazards off can do is stop transformations, gotta be neutral, Stadium 2 is only coming with hazards off and will probably only exist if Stadium 1 is legal with hazards on.
@@baileypalmer103 1. Is your main Mega Man by amy chance..? 2. I think it will work not against their opponents characters. But to pick a stage that works with their own characters better, take sheik on smashville for example. 3. It's always good to have a healthy 1-3 squad of characters to use. But dedicate as much time into your specific main so you don't HAVE to change, you know to be more comfortable on all stages, that's what my friend did. If nothing else... We'll cross the river when we get there.
Ok, first thanks for keeping an open mind. Brian Star Depths no hazards needs to be looked into, lobbed. Because you can grab ledges now, and it’s default form is mainly flat. Just have to make sure there aren’t any low camping areas, Secondly Gamer with no hazards should work? Although I believe the lay out is always different, it’s just a flat stage with a couple of ceiling platforms, a counter pick, but it should be considered,
About the "Battlefield problem" considering that Omega and Battlefield stage now have the exact same layout (flying plateform with the same shape), I think that the stages looking like Battlefield should maybe be removed from the list, in favor of their actual Battlefield Form. Although some have different size, like the Fountain of Dream. Also, omega forms allows now to use any background without having different ledges, so Omega Great Plateau Tower is definitely something possible instead of Final Destination.
BlankPageOfTheBlind FoD also has vertically moving platforms, but we don't know if hazards off disables that. Even so, it's still different enough from Battlefield due to the blast zones and the fact that there's that pillar underneath that you can wall jump off of. Also yeah I enjoy the idea of just being able to use any battlefield or omega version of a stage, and have it count as Battlefield or FD
@@VelvetAura Yeah, FoD is quite different, same goes for Yoshi's Story. However, Midgar and Dreamland 64 also have a floating main platform. But I tend to forget the blastzones importance. My personal take would be keeping FoD and Yoshi's Story. For Midgar and Dreamland 64, maybe going for the Battlefield form, for normalization of the shape and blastzone. And also yes, Stage Hazard off is important. FoD moving platforms, Yoshi's Story's cloud, Dreamland's Whispy... I think it's something TO must take in account. But stage hazard off is really specific to each stage, for example, Town & City still transform, and the only change is that platforms do not moves in each forms. And the omega / BF version having the same shape is really a great thing, considering how some omega ledges could be janky at times.
So we are going to have approximately 6 neutrals and 14 counterpicks for singles when the game comes out. It is going to be awesome having 20 unique stages, I just hope we get a tool for organizing the ones we like so we can ignore the other 100 or so when we want to play competitively.
You probably know by now, but the Rainbow Cruise ship does indeed not move without hazards. Also apparently Lylat doesn't tilt without hazards, so it should remain legal. Oh and there isn't a walk off in Dracula's Castle. I've seen people graphics the edge of the stairs.
This is going to be the first game I’m really going to try to play competitively so I’m super excited that there are tons of stage options also as a competitive melee fan Fountain being back to me is just awesome!
They stated in the first Direct that all of the omega versions of stages have identical blast zones and stage sizes so they would all just be uniform stages with different backgrounds so what M2K is saying would work
@Source90000 I don't really see what's funny about a virus that's killed millions of family members... :/ Call it what you want, but cancer is one thing you shouldn't joke about.
Starhearts. Jokes are meant to take the humor out of things, regardless of what. Cancer is a thing that exists, so it can be the subject of a joke much like any other thing that exists. Assuming these are inherently malicious and vilifying them for it only causes unwanted displeasure for yourself and others. Making jokes about anything harmful, like cancer, does not mean you are ignoring the fact that it is bad, and if anything means you are using the fact that it is bad as the humor behind the joke, and aknowledging it as the bad thing it is known for being. It is obviously perfectly okay and fair to feel this way, but condemning one for the joke made because of personal offense can only cause more harm than needed.
Those are a lot of potencial stages! What if we take all the "neutral" stages as starters and "?" stages as counterpick? We still need to test the game tho, but I feel its a good way to start in tournaments
- There are platforms on the Kalos Pokemon League, so hazardless would be interesting assuming the transformations are off. If they arent turned off, I think it could be ruined by the Steel and the Water transformation, because in Steel the platforms have walls and in Water a walkoff appears. - The starcase on Dracula's Castle is not a walkoff, so I think the stage could work, but I think the tiny walls could break it. I dont know the ruling on those kind of stages but Jason seemed cool with Area Ferox being legal even though there are always a bunch of walls and ceilings. -Lylat doesn't tilt when hazards are off, so it would be perfect.
I'm sure as hell looking forward to how crazy the rules are going to be the first Ultimate tournament I'm going to and what they will look like one the ones I watch on stream
Is this legal?? More like No Fun Allowed. Just make everything omega and battlefield. I want to listen to something that isn't Animal Crossing. If I have to hear Kappin Song or Go KK Rider again, I will kill myself
The omega and battlefields don't count as the original stage, but rather as versions of FD and Battlefield. They'll most definitely be legal as long as they play exactly the same as the original FD and Battlefield. But let's be honest, no matter how many legal stages we have, it doesn't stop people from just choosing Smashville every match anyways.
@UBF [Unbiased Bucs Fan] (I know that. That's why it'll get picked.) But I'm holding onto the hope that people realize that Pkmn Stadium 2 without transformations is the #1 best stage for 1v1. It was definitely my most used stage in PM.
and thats why we are once again required to use mods and hacks to "solve" that problem without changing the map for such a sake, only this time, using mods has teeth and can get an entire console and its' connected users banned from the eshop and online
👏Then👏don't👏watch👏competitive👏play👏 Seriously, I don't understand why everyone is making a huge fuss over this video. If your idea of fun smash is items on high 8 player smash on Corneria, then that's you and nobody can take away from you or tell you your way of fun is wrong because at a fundamental level, smash is a party game, so it's understandable to expect a wacky battle filled with random events. However, the same is true for competitive players. At a fundamental level, smash is also a fighting game, so it's logical that, to prevent unbalanced gameplay that'll favor certain characters and create an unfun environment, players would try to find what can be used in competitive play. If this idea of fun is not to your liking, then don't watch it, it's truly that simple.
Way to many of these stages you ruled out before considering what it would be like without stage hazards. Good thing these videos aren't set in stone and we can use way more stages than this.
I'm Sure Lylat could work with hazards off though I'm not sure if I'd like the stage. Halbert doesn't look like you could go through the stage but you can. It could have something to do with the transformation at the start so people wouldn't get stuck under it while trying to get on. There might be a small chance of it not being the case you could go through it. All Omegas and battlefield forms are the shape of Battlefield and FD. Thus the exceptions like the ones with the grass that could make the banana peel from Diddy Kong harder to see could be taken out and the rest should just be viable and bundled in with Battlefield and FD. And I think that Mushroom Kingdom U and Peach's Castle could possibly work with no hazards in doubles.
Is there any chance that there'll be different classifications for stages with hazards on vs. off? For example, Pokémon Stadium from Melee. Neutral with hazards off, counterpick with hazards on? If that were the case, would the stage be automatically unavailable in counterpick form if it had been previously played as a neutral, and vice versa?
@@chrismdb5686 Disliking the visuals is not a reason to ban a stage. Besides, if hazards off does the same thing to the stage that 8-player Smash did. Purgatorio will be turned off and it will be just a cliff at night.
@@dukemon6163 I'm not saying it should be banned, but people shouldn't be forced to play there either. Speaking from experience both physically hurt my eyes when I play on them, I don't have epilepsy but I'm assuming it would be even worse for someone that does.
@@chrismdb5686 I have an idea of what causes the visual stress. It's the yellow filter and all the angels coming and leaving too quickly and the scream of Fortitudo shaking the screen. I can't relate to that people because I play many action games and I'm used to see that many things on-screen. Like I said, hopefully you can turn off Purgatorio with hazards off. If the complain is the stage constantly falling.... that's just crying for the sake of it.
@@dukemon6163 It could be, although I've generally just attributed it to the absolute mess of visual clutter all in obnoxious colors. I have yet to play Bayonetta but it is high on my list of games in my Steam library that I need to play, hopefully I don't have issues with the game similar to the stage. Most games I play are generally fine but there are outliers like Brawl FD and Umbra Clock Tower that really don't jive with my eyes.
I really don't understand why great plateau tower can't be a pick. To me, stages are becoming just as important as character selection, especially since we have to pick it first. Why cant competitive learn to adapt to the stage picked instead of always playing on BF and FD variants?
@@divinearclight It breaks though and a platform replaces it for a while until it repairs. And because infinites is possible, both players need to stay on their toes and work with it.
Regarding what you said about interchangeable omegas, Sakurai said in one of the directs that all omegas would be the same, so interchanging them with FD would be possible.
M J Well do you want to pick from a list of 100+ stages each game in tournaments? Some of the banned stages are good but not something you’d want to play on for money because you could be fighting the stage more than your opponent.
Nintendo and Sakurai should include a stage edit feature to smash ultimate where you can chose a stage from the base roster and edit it. Like adding/removing platforms for example. I mean stage builder was already a thing and Assuming stage builder returns to ultimate than something like that wouldn’t be hard to implement as a part of stage bulder
No. Hanenbow is actually degenerate. It's too big, and it is probably the top 3 worst stages in Brawl alongside 75m and Mario Bros for competitive play.
I feel like the following stages could be legal counterpicks if hazardless: - Gamer - Congo Jungle and Super Happy Tree (I'm lumping these together because they both have the problem of benefiting characters who can jump high, but then again, that's kind of the point of a counterpick) - Jungle Japes and Pirate Ship if the water was removed and the blast zones were all stretched further out - Saffron City - Halberd - Luigi's Mansion and Tomodachi hazardless actually could work. I mean, aren't they just flat stages with long platforms above them? - Find Mii with hazards off is just two platforms, I don't see what's wrong with this Also, the hazardless stages that are flattened would still be unique because unlike FD, those stages have wall jumping, which is part of why I like playing on certain Omega Stages and Duck Hunt (Yes it's illegal, but I'm fine gentlemanning to it if neither of us is playing Bayo, since she's the reason it got banned in the first place)
_Galaxia_ - these are the only guaranteed legal format stages. You just saw the finalized list on this video lmfao they’re all closer to those formats. So clearly for tournament play, that’s all they really want
_Galaxia_ - most tournament games are on smashville. Stop acting like this isn’t true. You can go through these stages as they are and figure out if they are legal or not but it’s pretty pointless for the most part since the different formats are presented for Tournament play specifically.
I wonder if custom balance might be used in tournaments to close the gap between tiers. If it's used we might see more of the likes of Kirby and the entire heavyweight part of the roster.
Did you consider that competitive is the way it is because that's what competitive players have the most fun doing? Some of us would rather play the game than have the game play itself.
Unfortunately for there to be a competitive scene we the viewers have to be satisfied. And as a viewer I don't want to see the same stages over and over again.
I'm pretty sure draculas castle doesn't have walkoffs. I checked the direct again and I don't know if the camera angles showed beyond the blast zone or not, but the staircase breaks off, and the left side is a ledge.
"This is MY GAME, MY GAME ALONE! Fuck making this game fun for more people, ultimate should cater to Smas 4 alone, the superior player base, now let me get back to harassing bayo mains." is what you're saying
This was pretty disappointing to watch. Yes, some stages are rightly banned. Several others however deserve at least a chance due to the hazardless toggle. It's really sad seeing so-called 'top players' like zero call for stage bans before things like hazardless Lylat have even been tried. That's a really unhealthy attitude for a supposed champion to have.
Omega and battlefield stages look like they have the exact some proportions this time, so please tell me you can pick any level for battlefield and omega this time. Having different backgrounds and music is really nice.
Count all of the squares that don't have an X give us around 30, so assuming that all of the ones that need to be tested pass, then just under a third of the stages will be viable :O (though I doubt that will happen).
Hey, I don't really know about Yoshi's Island being legal because the center platform tilts and those shy guys stop projectiles. But then again, with stage hazards off it could be fine
Dracula's Castle has no walk-offs at all, we've seen the full stage from further away in other shots. Therefore it should be considered for labbing at least, since the main other potential issue is just hazards.
No I really don't think Isabelle is legal guys
Idk man, she’s the mayor’s secretary probs at least an adult.
The real question is would you want to ruin Isabelle’s innocence? Now THATS illegal
Police Of Cake she's a dog so it's irrelevant, still illegal
She's 38
Damn, that was my first thought for a comment
Darkness X03 she is intelligent enough to give consent. Legal. The truth isn’t pretty
I really like this new camera, really brings out the Not Found in you guys
Lmao
"Is this legal"
*picture of Isabelle*
uhhhhhhhhhh
*FBI OPEN UP*
Djoing y e s
i believe shes in her 30s (maybe early 40s) so you good
*They want to smash me?*
As long as it's consensual.
I am 100% behind M2K on allowing you to choose which FD you want. So many stages are so beautiful and have awesome music. Would suck to see it go to waste. If Midgar doesn't make it, at least allow it so that we can use the FD version.
Same, really need some form of Halbred legal for my own sanity in this game.
Weren't most Omegas except like 3 illegal in Smash 4 because of the music on those stages would cause copyright problems for streaming?
@@4137Swords Yes there were copyright problems with music at Smash 4's first Evo, the blast zones were different on a lot of them, grass can change a character's speed, and the shape of some of the stages allowed certain characters to cheese a match. I know Omega Palutena's Temple could be used as a substitute for Final Destination in the event that a player is bothered by the flashes but I wasn't aware of any other Omega stage being legal.
The only issue is copyrighted music. I can see big events just outright banning omegas to avoid that entirely. They could just turn off those music but they'd have to do it everytime and I can see TOs just taking the easier route of banning omegas.
The problem with the omegas is that the bottom of each of them are all differently shaped and can affect recovering back to stage. People don't really seem to think about this since it actually can give some characters an inherent advantage. Example: the Minor Circuit stage has a small lip on the side that completely messes up teleportation recoveries. Trying to recover from directly below as Mewtwo or Palutena is basically a death sentence.
All omegas are reskins this time so you can just literally replace FD if you want.
Mini k same for Battlefield
Omega stages has walls that extent below the bottom blast zone FD doesn't
@@bup2810 not in ultimate, they changed that iirc.
BUP that was in smash 4. They fixed it for Ultimate
@videogameprof Where did you see this?!
Interchangable omega and battlefield stages should be a thing. The proportions are all actually the same this time unlike Smash 4.
Really. All omegas have the same blastzones? where did you read it?
@@David_Onyx th-cam.com/video/L93H7YC-83o/w-d-xo.html
@@doktorocelot Checkmate. lol
It also has to come down to the character matchups. Little Mac get f**ked more ways than one of battlefield.
Just FYI Sakurai has said that all Omega and Battlefield stages are going to have the exact same collision and blastzones so theoretically all stages omega and battle fields should be fine to interchange with the normal fd and battlefield
Duuuude they approved 10 single stages with 2 more for doubles. And they approved on labbing 17 more stages to see what else could be added... Holy hell the potential for stage selection in this game is incredible!
And Esam wants to fucking limit the shit with a Seasonal Stage Selection. Fuck that, it could be unfair to certain characters to not have their best stage available.
I mean the game does have almost every stage to ever exist in any smash game I’d assume there would be a ton of legal stages
UnicornGod423 _ it’s more so because of stage hazard toggle
The fact that 10 to about 23 stages is considered an "incredible selection" really says a lot about how stringent their standards are, huh?...
Makes me wonder how much potential for competitively fair stages that can be designed even exists, because it sure doesn't seem like a lot...
That's the difference between "fun" and whatever competitive is. Hey, compared to the stage selection in other fighting games there's definitely nothing to complain about here!
Plays opponent in Brawl that has epilepsy
Counter-picks to Final Destination
I won 3 locals with this tech just turn up brightness and contrast
That or someone with ADD or ADHD. Lylat works well for that too
Last one is not a walk off
so what is it? because there is no ground underneath it.So its still not legal
69Meters Below after the stars there’s just a precipice
@@69metersbelow25 only if people get caught, it could still move them towards the ledge to grab
@@thefury770able Stairs could make it very easy to camp. Don't think it'll be legal
Solaire not saying it will be, just saying it’s not a walk off
Kalos pkmn league isn't just completely flat. When it's not transformed, it's basic layout has those 2 platforms. You're thinking of it's omega form, which is exactly the same just without the 2 platforms.
Liezuli Kalos League’s platform layout is actually pretty interesting. I’d love to see it in competitive play.
Love/Sapphiré I think counter-pick is fair.
Every stage has a battlefield form
Plus it has walls
Liezuli worth noting also that it has walls and I don’t think they’re wall jumpable like omega pac land was
There are two platforms in Kalos Pokemon League and Dracula's Castle doesn't have walks offs
Yes, but the stairs are kinda weird for competitive play
Dracula's castle has a ceiling though, I believe.
@@soulofseph9680 No way it does
@@sahiko996 I'm almost positive it does, go look at the reveal trailer there a floating ceiling.
@@soulofseph9680 It could just be aesthetic
Sakurai: we’ve made 103 stages!
Competitive smash players: Let’s use like 15 XD
Yes I know why they’re banned but it’s funny to see all the banned stages.
Even if there were more viable stages, it would still not be good to have a huge list.
ecksdee
compared to the usual 6 or so the current stage list is actually looking huge.
They catered for their target audience, not competitive whacks
15 is actually unprecidented.
Hazardless Lylat is perfectly viable. IT DOESN'T TILT! Leave your past salt at the door.
TheAltrox nah fuck that
Make me.
@@SaltyBoiJohns username checks out
TheAltrox That stage had so many glitches that ruined matches and created unfair kills over the years, let’s hope that’s fixed
@@rusty8311 It doesn't tilt. Pretty sure that's why glitchy stuff happened. It's worth labbing now. It's a pretty stage and it has a unique layout. Better than five different battlefields 😏 (triggering the masses in 5, 4, 3...)
Zero's logic is bad on Lylat honestly, just because you DON'T have to play it doesn't mean it isn't viable in competitive.
Also his anger for this stage caused him to forget about hazard toggle, the tilting might be gone,
th-cam.com/video/4sLX2Tdk7H4/w-d-xo.html
Tilting is gone.
I think he knows it's going to be legal, he's just against it. I feel the same. Lylat is trash but it'll be legal
Lylat without hazards is decent. The stage doesn’t bend anymore. “ I got lylated!” is gone for good
@@bluespidrlily So what? Learn to recover better. That's what being a different stage means.
Claire You’re a dumbass. You shouldn’t have to recover pixel perfect so that you don’t lose a stock.
Guys we don’t know how the ledges will be until we lab, just saying it’s not out of the question now that it doesn’t bend. Ledges could be fixed
@@almscurium You don't have to. You're just bad. Sorry.
Claire Some characters literally die if they hit a ceiling under a stage while other characters can ride up to the ledge free. It’s not a matter of skill, it just doesn’t work with some recoveries.
4:50
banning a stage because you dont need it has to be the dumbest reason to ban a stage.
AyAyron that would be dumb under any other circumstances, but we're talking about a horribly jank broken stage here that we don't have to put up with anymore, why should we keep it if we want the fairest stage picks?
It doesn't even matter what these two say. When the game comes out everyone is going to pitch in what stage should be allowed or not. I have a feeling there's going to be more variety than what Zero and M2K suggested.
@@goldsmith8502 i remember the stage would kinda change angles form time to time but if that doesnt happen anymore then isnt it fine? what if some people like that stage?
@@Aaron_Aroma The layout just flat out sucks. It just doesn't work well.
The only problem with it was the fact that it swerved and that you could go inside of the stage. @@TheChucknoxus
Mew2King: Dude I’m gonna say one thing
ZeRo: What?
Mew2King: Bayonetta
*Proceeds to ban all stages*
ZeRo is just mad because he loses Lylat Cruise consistently.
He doesn't think objectively. All his input has just been bias, he pushes to ban stages he doesn't like. Such as dreamland and lylat.
@@-8h- Magicant is certainly more fair than Angel Land, i'll say that much. It'd be a pretty neat stage, and its an interesting layout. My problem is that "not every stage can be battlefield", and if Frigate Orpheon is legal (even if just a counterpick), then so should Magicant.
I mean, it is _the_ best 3DS stage. It shouldn't need to be a "maybe," and the same goes to Frigate Orpheon imo. They're fine counterpick stages.
Best idea for Pokemon stadium
Pokemon Stadium (Hazards on)
Pokemon stadium 2 (Hazards off)
Gets best of both worlds! why not?
I think it would be cool to be able to pick hazards on or off for Pokémon Stadium. Obviously not Stadium 2, but you essentially get another stage slot if you allow people to choose between neutral and counterpick
You're right
Yep your 100% right!!
PMS1's hazards are super jank. It was only used in melee due to the overall low number of viable stages
@@Liezuli Pokemon Stadium was still legal in Smash 4 and Brawl in certain tournaments, too.
Lol, I love the edit at 1:14 with Reggie flying out with The Rock.
I guess that we'll have to see the true power of "Hazards Off" in order to truly see how the stage list will be formed.
Isabelle seems legal but the real question is would you really ruin the innocence?
The platforms have always been on that Kalos League
Did anyone catch the Soul Calibur music playing?
yes I read the description
Yep soul caliber 2 to be accurate
I love how I literally haven't played 2 in well over a decade and still immediately recognised it
Omega temple has the best background in Smash 4 imo
Two things in case someone sees this, Kalos Pokémon League has two platforms over the ledges by default, and Dracula’s Castle doesn’t actually have walkoffs
tl;dr: NOTHING IS LEGAL YOU'RE STAYING IN SMASHVILLE FOREVER
The true prison. XD
Already there are 7 definitive starters without needing to turn of hazards (while not combining tri-plats), 2 counters (3 with dubs) and of the 14 questionable ones, a few would be yes if hazards are toggled off. We have plenty of stages for competitive play and I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't have more than 10-12 legal stages.
So if we go with the, "all tri-plats are the same," rule from Sm4sh and selected 3 question marks to be legal with hazards off we have 10 stages total for 1v1s with being 5-6 being starters.
Even with 103 stages, Theres litterally only 8 stages legal
20XXPunch Would you want to strike from 103 stages in tournaments?
@@MeesterTweester i was bringing up an old thing about stages...
A minimum of 10 legal stages were discussed in this video: Lylat is 100% going to be legal (despite ZeRo's trauma), and Pokemon Stadium was incorrectly labeled "?" by the editor, even though both ZeRo and m2k agreed that it would obviously be legal.
Depending on how the hazard toggle affects transformations and platform layouts, a rough maximum of ~20 stages is possible.
Every stage has a battlefield version
They're talking about the Normal versions of each stage, Battlefield and omega forms are not being considered here
Halberd should be a counterpick not banned
@The Zebras Is that true? I no longer have the Wii U
Or at least allowed in FD or Battlefield form so we can finally get that good Kirbo music.
@@Aego384 It isn't. Saying Bayo can kill you at 30% is such a casual thing to say, SDI exists.
On another note yeah, the top blastzone once you are on top of the Halberd is very low, if the hazardless version fixes that or is just the floating platform then it should be legal.
@The Zebras There are better examples of characters that kill earlier with an SDI multiplier of x0.0 like ZSS. Ding Dong kills at those percents on top of the platform too. Samus can Uthrow - > Uair - > UpB at 0%. Zero says Bayo because he is still butthurt for losing against Salem at EVO lmao.
One word
Ladders
The fact that Bayonetta EXISTS as a character has caused so many stage bans.
U think thats bad, imagine living on a world where meta knight was top tier, and delphino plaza coexisted.
I'm not sure about that but she makes the problems very clear
Just BAN Bayo and you have more stages.
@@GretSeat They're attempting to balance her again
She hasn't really caused any.
Like there's a couple with low ceilings like Halberd, but that's not exclusive to her either. Just about anyone who excels at ladder combos can kill at low percentage there.
Dracula's Castle is actually not a walk off. It looks like one but it isn't. The staircase is crumbled halfway through making the stage float in the air as it should. It's still pretty big though so we'll have to see.
Just like its SotN equivalent(on the right I mean, the whole void of space on the left is new)
Is this legal? - Isabelle
So is it?
I will make it legal
.....
Maybe...
Damn, you guys are killing it with the background music. First FZero GX and now Soul Calibur 2? Those two along with melee are my favorite GC games.
Also, who else is playing SC6? So good, best since 2
Stadium 1 literally has no damaging hazards so all hazards off can do is stop transformations, gotta be neutral, Stadium 2 is only coming with hazards off and will probably only exist if Stadium 1 is legal with hazards on.
I watched part 1 today and was so ready to watch part 2 immediately afterwards. I got my wishes lol.
How does one counter pick when you pick the stage before the character?
Lol ikr that don't work
@@ken7007 you counterpick the stage that favors your best characters
or makes it hard for the opponents "main"
Counter picking will still work.
It's just before character's now.
@@spectral5939 yeah but if you pick a stage that my character is not good on I'm just going to switch my character
@@baileypalmer103 1. Is your main Mega Man by amy chance..?
2. I think it will work not against their opponents characters. But to pick a stage that works with their own characters better, take sheik on smashville for example.
3. It's always good to have a healthy 1-3 squad of characters to use. But dedicate as much time into your specific main so you don't HAVE to change, you know to be more comfortable on all stages, that's what my friend did.
If nothing else... We'll cross the river when we get there.
I've been waiting several years for this sequel.
Finnecable I just watched Part 1 today so I was super lucky
I also think we should consider "doubles only" stages.
TheAltrox I think arena ferox will be perfect for double only
They did, the stages with two blue people are "doubles only"
WarioWare can be a counter pick in singles. It must stay banned in doubles, it's too small.
Zero dropping mad knowledge about Kraid originally being planned to appear in Metroid Prime 1. I dont know why but this makes me happy.
Yeesh! There's more X's on these stages than in my Algebra book!
Ok, first thanks for keeping an open mind.
Brian Star Depths no hazards needs to be looked into, lobbed. Because you can grab ledges now, and it’s default form is mainly flat. Just have to make sure there aren’t any low camping areas,
Secondly Gamer with no hazards should work? Although I believe the lay out is always different, it’s just a flat stage with a couple of ceiling platforms, a counter pick, but it should be considered,
About the "Battlefield problem" considering that Omega and Battlefield stage now have the exact same layout (flying plateform with the same shape), I think that the stages looking like Battlefield should maybe be removed from the list, in favor of their actual Battlefield Form. Although some have different size, like the Fountain of Dream.
Also, omega forms allows now to use any background without having different ledges, so Omega Great Plateau Tower is definitely something possible instead of Final Destination.
BlankPageOfTheBlind FoD also has vertically moving platforms, but we don't know if hazards off disables that. Even so, it's still different enough from Battlefield due to the blast zones and the fact that there's that pillar underneath that you can wall jump off of. Also yeah I enjoy the idea of just being able to use any battlefield or omega version of a stage, and have it count as Battlefield or FD
@@VelvetAura Yeah, FoD is quite different, same goes for Yoshi's Story. However, Midgar and Dreamland 64 also have a floating main platform. But I tend to forget the blastzones importance.
My personal take would be keeping FoD and Yoshi's Story. For Midgar and Dreamland 64, maybe going for the Battlefield form, for normalization of the shape and blastzone.
And also yes, Stage Hazard off is important. FoD moving platforms, Yoshi's Story's cloud, Dreamland's Whispy... I think it's something TO must take in account. But stage hazard off is really specific to each stage, for example, Town & City still transform, and the only change is that platforms do not moves in each forms.
And the omega / BF version having the same shape is really a great thing, considering how some omega ledges could be janky at times.
just make triplats the same ban
So we are going to have approximately 6 neutrals and 14 counterpicks for singles when the game comes out. It is going to be awesome having 20 unique stages, I just hope we get a tool for organizing the ones we like so we can ignore the other 100 or so when we want to play competitively.
sighhhhh
I'm a simple man, I see Isabelle on thumbnail, I click video
You probably know by now, but the Rainbow Cruise ship does indeed not move without hazards. Also apparently Lylat doesn't tilt without hazards, so it should remain legal. Oh and there isn't a walk off in Dracula's Castle. I've seen people graphics the edge of the stairs.
M2k is just scared that he get's bodied by the stages
This is going to be the first game I’m really going to try to play competitively so I’m super excited that there are tons of stage options also as a competitive melee fan Fountain being back to me is just awesome!
Unova without hazards should be legal, same with Gamer
Doesn't Unova unfortunately have walk offs?
TheNamekianClown but with that hazards off tho
Oooooh no definitely not Gamer. Hazards off doesn't save it, not even close
@AdventureTimeFan94 You can't "Just adapt" when it's completely random
3:00
Kraid wasn't supposed to be the boss of the "lava world," he was supposed to be in Phazon Mines where the Omega Pirate is
Dat Soul Calibur 2 hype music!!
Wheres my poke floats dawg
L E G A L I Z E P O K E F L O A T S
L E G A L I Z E T E M P L E
#legalizepokefloats
I'm sorry but I think that no idiots were allowed here. Only the most intellectual #HanenbowMasterRace is permitted
Remember when Pokéfloats was legal?
Hanenbow was the best stage in Brawl
They stated in the first Direct that all of the omega versions of stages have identical blast zones and stage sizes so they would all just be uniform stages with different backgrounds so what M2K is saying would work
2:35 Did he say "super canceled" or "super cancer" lol
super cancer sadly.... jason needs to stop saying that...
Either "super cancer" or "super cancered" lol
@Source90000 I don't really see what's funny about a virus that's killed millions of family members... :/ Call it what you want, but cancer is one thing you shouldn't joke about.
@Source90000 not all jokes are funny especially one about cancer
Starhearts. Jokes are meant to take the humor out of things, regardless of what. Cancer is a thing that exists, so it can be the subject of a joke much like any other thing that exists. Assuming these are inherently malicious and vilifying them for it only causes unwanted displeasure for yourself and others. Making jokes about anything harmful, like cancer, does not mean you are ignoring the fact that it is bad, and if anything means you are using the fact that it is bad as the humor behind the joke, and aknowledging it as the bad thing it is known for being. It is obviously perfectly okay and fair to feel this way, but condemning one for the joke made because of personal offense can only cause more harm than needed.
Well, hey! It's not JUST Smashville anymore! This is an improvement!
I really hope this isn’t the final judgement...
lmao. like they have any say in what is legal and what isn't?
@@GretSeat Well they are top players in the Smash community, so their opinions do matter.
Expect even less legal stages in the final rules.
Those are a lot of potencial stages!
What if we take all the "neutral" stages as starters and "?" stages as counterpick?
We still need to test the game tho, but I feel its a good way to start in tournaments
No this is Patrick
Hi, is this stage legal?
Talking about smash with the soulcaliber music in the background, nice.
Wait, why was Great Plateau banned? How is the barrier in the middle a problem?
You can tech against it, and because it's so big, it would be extremely obnoxious to kill competent players.
@@pizzashark7067 It's not big at all.
- There are platforms on the Kalos Pokemon League, so hazardless would be interesting assuming the transformations are off. If they arent turned off, I think it could be ruined by the Steel and the Water transformation, because in Steel the platforms have walls and in Water a walkoff appears.
- The starcase on Dracula's Castle is not a walkoff, so I think the stage could work, but I think the tiny walls could break it. I dont know the ruling on those kind of stages but Jason seemed cool with Area Ferox being legal even though there are always a bunch of walls and ceilings.
-Lylat doesn't tilt when hazards are off, so it would be perfect.
That was on purpose... Y'all wrong for this and I hate you... but it is a question for science? Wait, this is about Smash Legal stages...
...
Oh.
I'm sure as hell looking forward to how crazy the rules are going to be the first Ultimate tournament I'm going to and what they will look like one the ones I watch on stream
Is this legal??
More like No Fun Allowed.
Just make everything omega and battlefield. I want to listen to something that isn't Animal Crossing. If I have to hear Kappin Song or Go KK Rider again, I will kill myself
The omega and battlefields don't count as the original stage, but rather as versions of FD and Battlefield. They'll most definitely be legal as long as they play exactly the same as the original FD and Battlefield.
But let's be honest, no matter how many legal stages we have, it doesn't stop people from just choosing Smashville every match anyways.
@UBF [Unbiased Bucs Fan] (I know that. That's why it'll get picked.) But I'm holding onto the hope that people realize that Pkmn Stadium 2 without transformations is the #1 best stage for 1v1. It was definitely my most used stage in PM.
and thats why we are once again required to use mods and hacks to "solve" that problem without changing the map for such a sake, only this time, using mods has teeth and can get an entire console and its' connected users banned from the eshop and online
👏Then👏don't👏watch👏competitive👏play👏
Seriously, I don't understand why everyone is making a huge fuss over this video. If your idea of fun smash is items on high 8 player smash on Corneria, then that's you and nobody can take away from you or tell you your way of fun is wrong because at a fundamental level, smash is a party game, so it's understandable to expect a wacky battle filled with random events. However, the same is true for competitive players. At a fundamental level, smash is also a fighting game, so it's logical that, to prevent unbalanced gameplay that'll favor certain characters and create an unfun environment, players would try to find what can be used in competitive play. If this idea of fun is not to your liking, then don't watch it, it's truly that simple.
Fair stage balancing over rules fun no matter what you say.
I think Halberd might be legal if Hazards off has no ship attacks but will the stage start with the walk offs?
Way to many of these stages you ruled out before considering what it would be like without stage hazards. Good thing these videos aren't set in stone and we can use way more stages than this.
I'm Sure Lylat could work with hazards off though I'm not sure if I'd like the stage. Halbert doesn't look like you could go through the stage but you can. It could have something to do with the transformation at the start so people wouldn't get stuck under it while trying to get on. There might be a small chance of it not being the case you could go through it.
All Omegas and battlefield forms are the shape of Battlefield and FD. Thus the exceptions like the ones with the grass that could make the banana peel from Diddy Kong harder to see could be taken out and the rest should just be viable and bundled in with Battlefield and FD.
And I think that Mushroom Kingdom U and Peach's Castle could possibly work with no hazards in doubles.
No cam?
Is there any chance that there'll be different classifications for stages with hazards on vs. off? For example, Pokémon Stadium from Melee. Neutral with hazards off, counterpick with hazards on? If that were the case, would the stage be automatically unavailable in counterpick form if it had been previously played as a neutral, and vice versa?
You can't camp on Umbra Clock Tower. It's basically FD with some platforms coming and leaving.
That stage is absolutely obnoxious with visuals though... Personally I think it's worse than Brawls FD in that regard.
@@chrismdb5686 Disliking the visuals is not a reason to ban a stage. Besides, if hazards off does the same thing to the stage that 8-player Smash did. Purgatorio will be turned off and it will be just a cliff at night.
@@dukemon6163 I'm not saying it should be banned, but people shouldn't be forced to play there either. Speaking from experience both physically hurt my eyes when I play on them, I don't have epilepsy but I'm assuming it would be even worse for someone that does.
@@chrismdb5686 I have an idea of what causes the visual stress. It's the yellow filter and all the angels coming and leaving too quickly and the scream of Fortitudo shaking the screen. I can't relate to that people because I play many action games and I'm used to see that many things on-screen. Like I said, hopefully you can turn off Purgatorio with hazards off. If the complain is the stage constantly falling.... that's just crying for the sake of it.
@@dukemon6163 It could be, although I've generally just attributed it to the absolute mess of visual clutter all in obnoxious colors. I have yet to play Bayonetta but it is high on my list of games in my Steam library that I need to play, hopefully I don't have issues with the game similar to the stage. Most games I play are generally fine but there are outliers like Brawl FD and Umbra Clock Tower that really don't jive with my eyes.
Been waiting for this one bois
I really don't understand why great plateau tower can't be a pick. To me, stages are becoming just as important as character selection, especially since we have to pick it first. Why cant competitive learn to adapt to the stage picked instead of always playing on BF and FD variants?
It allows for ceiling infinites and all sorts of stuff with that dome that never goes away.
@@divinearclight It breaks though and a platform replaces it for a while until it repairs. And because infinites is possible, both players need to stay on their toes and work with it.
We're here to play against our opponent, not play against the stage
+Liezuli That is a great way to put it.
Regarding what you said about interchangeable omegas, Sakurai said in one of the directs that all omegas would be the same, so interchanging them with FD would be possible.
Put a stage in a hat. Whatever you draw most likely to not be "viable".
M J Well do you want to pick from a list of 100+ stages each game in tournaments? Some of the banned stages are good but not something you’d want to play on for money because you could be fighting the stage more than your opponent.
Nintendo and Sakurai should include a stage edit feature to smash ultimate where you can chose a stage from the base roster and edit it. Like adding/removing platforms for example. I mean stage builder was already a thing and Assuming stage builder returns to ultimate than something like that wouldn’t be hard to implement as a part of stage bulder
I hope Hanenbow is tourney legal. It'll be like Sm4sh and Brawl's Lyat Cruise.
No. Hanenbow is actually degenerate. It's too big, and it is probably the top 3 worst stages in Brawl alongside 75m and Mario Bros for competitive play.
Hanenbow, 75M, and PacLand are probably the three worst Smash Bros. Stages ever...
You are forgetting Rumble Falls!
I feel like the following stages could be legal counterpicks if hazardless:
- Gamer
- Congo Jungle and Super Happy Tree (I'm lumping these together because they both have the problem of benefiting characters who can jump high, but then again, that's kind of the point of a counterpick)
- Jungle Japes and Pirate Ship if the water was removed and the blast zones were all stretched further out
- Saffron City
- Halberd
- Luigi's Mansion and Tomodachi hazardless actually could work. I mean, aren't they just flat stages with long platforms above them?
- Find Mii with hazards off is just two platforms, I don't see what's wrong with this
Also, the hazardless stages that are flattened would still be unique because unlike FD, those stages have wall jumping, which is part of why I like playing on certain Omega Stages and Duck Hunt (Yes it's illegal, but I'm fine gentlemanning to it if neither of us is playing Bayo, since she's the reason it got banned in the first place)
this seems like a waste of time considering everything can be played in omega or battlefield versions.
Omega and Battlefield Versions are basically reskins, They're talking about the ACTUAL stages in the game
People don't want to just play on battlefield and fd
_Galaxia_ - these are the only guaranteed legal format stages.
You just saw the finalized list on this video lmfao they’re all closer to those formats.
So clearly for tournament play, that’s all they really want
@@JamesEmery6
I could've figured you were a casual
_Galaxia_ - most tournament games are on smashville. Stop acting like this isn’t true. You can go through these stages as they are and figure out if they are legal or not but it’s pretty pointless for the most part since the different formats are presented for Tournament play specifically.
I wonder if custom balance might be used in tournaments to close the gap between tiers. If it's used we might see more of the likes of Kirby and the entire heavyweight part of the roster.
Fun and competitive seem to not intertwine
Did you consider that competitive is the way it is because that's what competitive players have the most fun doing? Some of us would rather play the game than have the game play itself.
Unfortunately for there to be a competitive scene we the viewers have to be satisfied. And as a viewer I don't want to see the same stages over and over again.
@@trumoo2058 competitive smash has been doing great for 17 years without catering actual game play to the spectators.
@@austinberchen5554 wasn't there a huge outrage when 2 bayos' were playing in the grand finals a couple months back?
@@trumoo2058 yeah and absolutely nothing came of it. I don't understand what you're trying to get at.
Sakurai: *Puts over 100 stages into smash*
Competitive Smash Players: *Legalize 26 percent of stages*
This is why I hate competitive Smash
Why did you click on the video in the first place then.
Why?
This is why I hate PrinceOfAllToasters.
Yeah I'm not seeing what the "this" you're referring to is.
@@codieb5612 I think the "this" is the banning of so many stages.
I'm pretty sure draculas castle doesn't have walkoffs. I checked the direct again and I don't know if the camera angles showed beyond the blast zone or not, but the staircase breaks off, and the left side is a ledge.
yep. no walkoffs
*Appealing to Melee*
I gagged.
"This is MY GAME, MY GAME ALONE! Fuck making this game fun for more people, ultimate should cater to Smas 4 alone, the superior player base, now let me get back to harassing bayo mains." is what you're saying
Why tho, what could possibly be wrong with attracting more melee players
Pazzo, That Fool That's a bad thing?
Arent you the same people that cry 'but meleetards dont want to play the bew game' well why not give them reason to do so
Why is that gag worthy?
If the bright man platforms are still there with hazards off Wily castle will be hype.
This was pretty disappointing to watch. Yes, some stages are rightly banned. Several others however deserve at least a chance due to the hazardless toggle. It's really sad seeing so-called 'top players' like zero call for stage bans before things like hazardless Lylat have even been tried. That's a really unhealthy attitude for a supposed champion to have.
@@petalsinthebreeze you wont fall through smashville and besides he didn't know lylat wouldn't tilt
Omega and battlefield stages look like they have the exact some proportions this time, so please tell me you can pick any level for battlefield and omega this time. Having different backgrounds and music is really nice.
M2K you're interrupting zero alot. Can you please wait till he finishes his sentences? Not trying to diss.
He's on the spectrum and they are close friends... ZeRo is aware of this quirk. Can you be more understanding?
@@SaltyBoiJohns can you stop taking drugs?
We need an FD variant where the sides go all the way down, which regular FD does not have.
I like how the camera shows the real 404 in you
criteria:
-is perfectly flat and has ledges, or
-looks exactly like battlefield
"there's too many battlefields"
13:50 I'm pretty sure you can make any stage an omega or FD stage
Count all of the squares that don't have an X give us around 30, so assuming that all of the ones that need to be tested pass, then just under a third of the stages will be viable :O (though I doubt that will happen).
Why is the soulcaliber character selection music playing in the background of a smash bros video
Ferox at the start is like a giant FD so hopefully that won't be the only option with hazards off, probably is though
Have these two done another one of these since the game came out? I want to see what they have to say after labing
Hey, I don't really know about Yoshi's Island being legal because the center platform tilts and those shy guys stop projectiles. But then again, with stage hazards off it could be fine
Love that Soul Calibur 2 music. That game was an awesome part of my childhood
Dracula's Castle has no walk-offs at all, we've seen the full stage from further away in other shots. Therefore it should be considered for labbing at least, since the main other potential issue is just hazards.