Regarding what it matters if it's systemic CNS fatigue or psychological fatigue, it actually matters a lot. For one, CNS fatigue causes nocebo effects, whereas the knowledge that it's mental fatigue should be empowering you to push harder. Second, CNS fatigue would have very different programming implications, like reducing workout length, deloading or reducing volume. Not having to worry about these things and knowing you can just keep pushing yourself is very valuable for people in my experience.
Menno couple follow-ups: 1. Myth #1 (direct vs indirect work): Does most back work actually meaningfully stimulate the biceps or is it mostly the other elbow flexors like the brachialis and brachioradialis? During pulling motions, aren't the biceps generally lengthening at the shoulder while shortening at the elbow and thus wouldn't be able to contribute much force similar to the rectus femoris during a squat? Additionally, in something like a close-grip, underhand pulldown with a vertical cable and/or a 1-arm dumbbell row, isn't the line of force from the cable or gravity generally parallel with the forearm rather than perpendicular and thus not able to generate much extension torque at the elbow which would provide tension while doing elbow flexion to actually stimulate the elbow flexors? 2. Myth #4 (volume redistribution): Are you saying that there isn't much advantage in a specialization phase for someone who has no real time constraints to get the additional volume in? Like if you have the freedom and mental fortitude to add more days or sessions (maybe 2 a days 6x per week for a total of 12 training sessions/week) to add more volume to a specific muscle group you'd be fine keeping all the other muscles at their normal volume and there really isn't a systemic MAV/MRV that limits the maximum amount of muscle protein synthesis and/or damage recovery your body can actually handle? Do you think someone needs to eat more protein/calories when adding more volume like that? Wouldn't the body need more "building materials" to produce more growth and recover?
52 sets per body part per week buddy. Sky is the limit. Check your scale for calorie adjustments - probably going to need a lot of carbs, so if you have any time left after doing your daily 300 set session, you should be boiling rice - then making sure you get deep REM sleep for 8-10 hours. I think trying to pinpoint where in your arms your rows and pulls go is meaningless when you do 52 sets of them and then add all the curls in the world on top of it. Remember to have fun - the gym is now your life.
1. Have you ever seen the biceps on an Olympic gymnast? They aren’t spending any time doing bicep isolation exercises though they have INSANE biceps from doing compound pulling movements or even straight arm work. If your hypothesis was correct that straight arm or pulling motions aren’t ideal for bicep growth then gymnasts wouldn’t consistently see great bicep hypertrophy from this type of training. You can debate mechanisms, though the results are clear. 2. On paper, there is no benefit from cutting load of one muscle and replacing it with another. In practice, starting your workouts with the prioritized muscle group or reducing your cumulative fatigue by reducing lower priority muscles/exercises should give you more ability to push yourself on your key movements. Even if it isn’t “CNS fatigue”, no one has the same level of focus & intensity 2hrs into their workout as they did in the first 30mins. Call it mental exhaustion, reduced energy, whatever, the reality is your ability to push yourself to the max gradually diminishes over the course of your workout. It may not be a steep drop from 1 exercise to the next, but it certainly becomes material over long spans of time and more sets into it.
@@iwatchdemvids 1. Yea I'm just completely speculating here based on what I've learned about other biarticular muscles and wondering why it wouldn't apply for the biceps. But in regard to gymnasts, bodyweight exercises like pull-ups or inverted rows are actually exempt from my second point about the forces being parallel vs perpendicular. Since the resistance is coming from your bodyweight which is attached at the shoulder it actually creates a moment arm and torque on the elbow that is fully perpendicular! This is notably different than a cable in close grip pulldowns or dumbbells in 1-arm rows or many other traditional pulling exercises in the gym where the force is coming from something in your hands and thus pretty parallel to the forearm (and creating minimal elbow torque) most of the times. So I could see gymnasts doing bodyweight exercises being great for the biceps, or at least the other elbow flexors if the biarticular biceps don't end up contributing that much, since the other elbow flexors are still in the arms it would still make the arms look larger pushing up the biceps too even though it may not be specifically due to biceps growth. That's why I was hoping Menno could possibly clarify his thoughts on this! 2. I basically agree!! It just seemed like Menno was saying there was no reason to reduce volume and specialize on specific muscles and I wanted clarity since I've seen many other evidence-based sources promote specialization phases. I especially think that if you have the time and split things with AM and PM sessions you could maybe get around some of the energy/exhaustion problems so I was wondering if Menno really thought it's feasible to do a super high volume program across the entire body like that assuming you have the time and there would be no advantage to reducing volume in some muscles to grow others more.
Completely disagree on the CNS fatigue point. Whenever I do my heavy deadlift day im always wrecked for the next 24-48 hours. This also never occurs with local muscle fatigue or DOMS, or on any other heavy compound lift days like squat or bench. And ive been lifting heavy 6 days a week for 2 years straight, so this isnt a case of "mental exhaustion" either..
Completely agree with you. I've even had my hands shaking randomly during a time I was working out for 7 days a week for about 3 months. It would get worse after days I had done more compounds, specially deadlifts.
The fatigue mechanism described is rather what Menno is describing, but he did not explain the phenomenon incredibly well. Circumstances surrounding near maximal efforts do not generate the same markers of supraspinal fatigue, but this does keep us in a state of elevated arousal which inhibits our parasympathetic nervous system. Those heavy lifts won't keep you from being able to do other work in the session, but a longer set can. An athletic performance will have a similar effect. Deadlifts are "different" in this because of the breadth of muscles involved, thus you will prefatigue a lot of other muscles and might experience discomfort from hard bracing which does reduce force output. I don't think you're wrong, merely there is a need to distinguish some types of fatigue as Menno notes.
No offense but if you're wrecked for 2 days from some heavy deadlifts, that may just mean you're a little soft. Maybe get your testosterone checked or maybe work to improve your overall work capacity? I think a lot of serious lifters are just over sensitive to any type/level of fatigue/discomfort. Too many videos obsessing over rest and recovery and people get neurotic about it and it becomes a mental thing. I've done it myself at times, I'm in my 40's and am doing pretty heavy construction work 5 days a week, and I still lift heavy 6 days a week, workout 7 days a week, swim, box, run, bike, and I never really feel physically fatigued. And I'm not saying I'm some amazing specimen, just the opposite, I'm just an average guy. I think most people would feel the same if they weren't thinking about it so much, or so sensitive about it
@eddiehauser6661 don't where you're coming up with this "obsession over rest." it isnt a matter of work capacity or T levels at 31 years old, and as I've already stated my man I've been lifting 6-7 days every week for 2 years straight, minus Christmas and Thanksgiving. If working out over 2 hours everyday is taking it easy, then please enlighten me. Now part of that fatigue can be chalked up to my calorie intake as I don't bulk and I only increase calories around my deadlift day. I also do 30-60 minutes of cardio after every workout. But if rdl's at 405lbs at 8 reps of 6 sets is being "soft" at 2 years in the gym, then let me know what's hardcore.
What is mental fatigue if not fatigue in brain that is big part of central nervous system. What is tiredness or lack of will power if not a brain issue? We don't have any "will" outside our brain
Mental fatigue is psychology. RPE is mostly bunk. People are not good at gauging their actual performance beforehand. I can't even tell you how many times I've gone into the gym feeling like shit and hit PRs. The way you feel emotionally has more to do with life stress than it does with physical readiness. Also, this isn't talking about connective tissue fatigue at all, just your muscular readiness.
Having an illness or internal hemorrhaging causes fatigue, large calorie deficits can cause fatigue; probably a lot of things that are overtaxing the body's limited resources will signal fatigue in a way that's more than local or purely psychological.
Same, it's why I superset damn near everything now. Or "giant set" by some definitions. I do 6-7 days of 15-20 min sessions. I superset 3-4 exercises a day, going to failure or very close.
The central fatigue stuff . Idk I really feel like doing 4 sets of deadlifts really impairs my following exercises ,even if they are very local, like lateral raises ....
It does. The problem with these science guys is they completely disregard anecdote and take research as law no matter what, even if we have direct evidence from decades of other lifters that completely contradicts it
@shades4313 I mean maybe the research is technically correct as in the fatigue is not caused by the central nervous system BUT they should address that there is some form of fatigue nonetheless, I refuse to think that I and so many others are just "imagining" to be tired after deadlifts and squats.
I think that's a problem with terminology here. Henselmans refers to a concept of systemic fatigue that build over a long period of time and can impact you for days or even weeks if you don't manage it. What you describe is probably closer to exhaustion due to depletetion of locally and systemically available ATP storage and the cardiovascular limitations of your body.
@@DangerSquigglesexactly, people are getting butthurt because they don't realize they've been using the wrong terms to describe what's going on. CNS and central fatigue exist, they are technical terms describing something specific, someone at some point thought this applied to resistance training, and it turns out that that type of fatigue is different. Accept it and move on.
Hrm, so if we cannot shift volume from some muscles to others, and if we have research showing better growth when doing 43-52+ weekly sets to failure for a single muscle group (like quads in the Enes study), are you saying we'd expect no issues from doing 52+ sets for all of our muscles all at once? That doesn't seem plausible.
Yeah, I felt like Menno was being a bit too literal on that one. In most circumstances, adding volume to a body part on a weekly basis means something else is going to have to step aside. There's only so much time and effort to go around.
Of course you would, because none of your muscle groups are accustomed to that volume. You'd far exceed your maximum recoverable volume on most of your muscle groups and the only one that handled 52 sets in that test group was quads. You could work your way up to 52 sets of quads, but other muscle groups? Gonna be up to genes. Regardless this is all local fatigue.
I mean, a lot of high level athletes are training twice a day with a cardio/conditioning session on top of that, plus sport specific work. If training was your job, you could probably make it work as long as you followed all the usual caveats (ramp up slowly over time, load management, recovery, etc.)
It depends. If the person doing machine pulldowns develops more muscle than the persone who does pull-ups, the machine guy will in theory be able to get stronger at pull-ups aswell. But the person doing pull-ups is increasing in the pull-up skill it self so often they excell in real world. You could argue for pull-ups develops more of essential core/supportive muscle needed for the pull-up movement. Witch could be correct, but that depends on execution of both variants.
Maybe symatics cns fatigue. Deadlifts just take more out of me and my spine than anything else. I just call that cns fatigue. Maybe wrong words. Seems nit picky.
Mental fatigue is a real thing.I think it is similar to having a hard day at work.: Anything that takes a lot of effort and maybe even emotional agitation like a deadlift will take more out of you than doing the same sets in a machine.
Call it CNS fatigue, burnout, whatever.. but my personal experience goes counter to this idea that fatigue is local, and as a result you can't shuffle volume. I pulled back a bit on quad training and was able to get a lot more intensity and an equal amount of extra volume on my hamstrings. The body is a unit. It's not that exerting your quads puts fatigue on your hamstrings, but rather it builds up fatigue on your ancillary muscles (glutes, core) and on the brain that then becomes limiting factors when training your hamstrings.
quite likely it isnt and its a problem on focusing too much on one area. heavy training/fatigue leads to inflammation. inflammation is highly connected to depression. some researchers go so far and claim all depression is induced by inflammation (which is probably also not correct, there are just multiple pathways). if you train hard and your body - although just locally - has an inflammation all the time it will def. effect your mental health similar like a mild depression
IDK how you call it, but after a leg day I am just unable to make, for example, shoulders. Maybe the name is incorrect, but I think we can agreee that we all feel something that feels like "central fatigue".
#3 and #4 where confusing as to them being myths at all. Anyone who trains for something else will know that #3 is a thing. I started lifting to be strong and more resilient to play tennis, but if I play tennis at my current high intensity, I will be worn out, fatigued and sore enough so as to not be able to lift that day and that's ok, that's what I lift for...initially anyways, I genuinely am taking a liking to lifting now I "get it". Similarly for #4, I don't see how skipping my hated, but oh so effective, split squats will allow me to do more overhead tricep exercises.
These arguments just feel very nitpicky. The argument that you can achieve equivalent growth in the biceps on a seated row as you can in a bicep curl is simply preposterous. The argument clearly is bringing some ceteris paribus conditions. Can you get the same growth if you do enough compound vs. iso? Yes, you can. But I fail to understand why that is relevant - nobody cares if you can get the same biceps growth with 20 sets of rows as you can with 4 sets of curls.
It blows my mind how convoluted people have made a relatively simple task like lifting weights. I feel like if anyone is struggling in the "gains" department it's because they've let suicidal media fitness get inside their head and are overthinking it like crazy. Just lift. And if the muscles targeted during the workout are tired and have a pump.... and you sweated.... you just had a good workout. It's not rocket science. It's literally picking up and putting down heavy objects. The only advice I'd say one needs is - 1) lift with proper form doing full ROM.... if you want to cheat the last few reps in the contraction phase of the lift but control the negative - that's fine... if not highly recommended. It's ensuring you're lifting to failure if not beyond... so to speak. 2) Be CONSISTENT. with every fiber in your body do NOT miss a workout. It will happen but it should be incredibly rare. Even if you're not 100% doing a half assed workout at 50% effort is 100x better than doing..... nothing. 3) If you're not making a weird face on the last 2-3 reps of every working set.... you're not trying hard enough. 4) sleep is almost as crucial as your actual workout.... assuming you're lifting as described previously. 5) want to gain weight... increase portion sizes of what you're already eating. It's a given what you are eating isn't pure shit and you're consuming proper nutrition. Want to lose weight.... yup.... decrease the portion sizes of what you're currently eating OR.... toss in 20-30 minutes of LISS cardio at the end of your lifting session. Yes, good old fashioned, boring Low Intensity Steady State cardio.... like walking on a treadmill or casually riding a bike......... that's about it. Everything else is just..... fluff/extra. For the average person getting into lifting mainly for health reasons and to just look better naked.... it's fluff. Because guess what.... I love fitness youtube as much as the next guy, specifically the actual natural, "science based" youtubers. But if you buy one of their programs (I recommend that... especially if you're going to the gym with no plan at all) you'll find....... they're loaded with the tried and true standard exercises/movements. Why? Because lifting is NOT complicated. It might be hard.... as in physically demanding - but thats the point. Oh.. bonus tip.... if hypertrophy is your main if not only goal - you need far LESS weight than you think you do. Just focus on the muscle, proper form, and a slowish CONTROLLED tempo in the negative/lowering/lengthing of the muscle phase.
Yeah but i watch this channel for entertainment not like im gonna implement any of this advice unless im a pro bodybuilder. Also funny you complain about making lifting convoluted and then proceed to write an entire essay
myth 3.: heavy training/fatigue leads to inflammation. inflammation is highly connected to depression. the body signals clearly it needs recovery and one should move as little as possible. also body and mind are one unit. fatigue exists locally but the information is highly processed in the brain, it seems dumb to separate it like that.
1) How do rows stimulate the biceps? Seems like the lats and rear delts are doing the pulling. I'm talking bent over rows and cable rows. 2) I heard that it takes one month to recover from doing your 1 rep max. Is that true? After a power lifting meet, how long before someone could do their one rep max again?
Regarding the fractional volume: What if the fractional volume in secondary muscles is just too easy to generate any growth? Isn´t there a minimum intensitiy level that needs to be activated to generate noticeable growth? For example: If my back is close to failure in the barbell row, my biceps may still have 10 reps in the tank. That means you may train your Back with 3 RIP, but your biceps with 10+ RIP. I don´t think you can really count that as muscle adding volume?
Coach Henselman: Your channel is absolutely underrated. Thanks for your lessons. To maybe raise interaction with your videos and work the algorith, ask your viewers to comment. Greetings from germany
So, follow up. There was the 52 set study, and Dr Mike and Wolf both joked that obviously you would explode if you tried a ramping progression like this for all muscles. Are you saying that because fatigue is local, you wouldn't and could run something like that for all bodyparts?
Regarding myth #2: Heavy (pound-for-pound) free weight require stronger stabilizing muscles (and connective tissue). Stronger than average stabilizing muscles allow for extraordinary balancing capacity, for example. And cables allow better muscular tension throughout full ROM - especially compared to machines. Regarding myth #3: It is completely possible to execute a 1 RM - using full range of motion and excellent form - and end up with complete muscle failure, not being able to continue on with your training. But I would classify that as 'physical fatigue and exhaustion' - NOT 'mental exhaustion.' As long as the mind is willing, and you've done the very best on that day, it's more likely physical exhaustion. Keep in mind, I'm referring to bro splits here while being natural.
I'm doing hybrid training, keeping at least 4 hours between lift then run workouts. CNS fatigue, or something is happening. I do work hard at getting good rest, but I do have a huge stress load in my life as well. I wonder if fight or flight-vagus nerve stuff is effecting me or if I'm just doing too much running. I would love to find more info about this. Great vid!!!
I thought that proximity to failure was one of the most important factors in relation to muscle growth? I know my biceps are no where near failure after several sets of rows. In fact I like to do dumbbell biceps curls after my dumbbell rows. As the weight is about 1/3 and feels so light
Free weights are still better for function. Sure I could do hamstrings and lower back on machines but that's not going to teach me how to pick heavy shit up off the floor.
Central fatigue or motor neur fatigue .. if u ever trained twice a day say a weightlifting session and a technical session Boxing or mma... I usually feel tired yes but it ends up causing insomnia needless to say it causes moorning fog and I won't be able to train next day
CNS fatigue is NOT muscle fatigue, but cerebral fatigue. Lifting weights has 2 components: central cerebral activity to control your muscles and local muscle activity. When EITHER (or both) of these two components is compromised, you will be weaker. So it's absolutely possible that after a particularly CNS challenging session your muscles locally are still OK, but your brain finds it much more difficult to contract and coordinate them. The net result is that you can lift less or that your stamina is reduced. 🤓
I have to disagree that the fatigue from a heavy workout is all "mental". When I do a killer leg-day workout, I'm "physically" tired. My energy stores have been used up. I can't immediately follow a brutal leg workout with some other body part. I need to physically rest for a while, let my metabolism catch up, and eat some more food. If I don't rest and jump right into other body part, then that body part will not get the full benefit of a good session. If we didn't need physical rest, then we should be able to do an effective full body workout all in one (long) session. But of course, we know that would not work well.
One thing I would caution about is when looking at studies like the Single vs. Multi-Joint Resistance Exercises one, they often use untrained subjects. Do the same conclusions hold when talking about intermediate or advanced lifters? Typically I see the advice for untrained people is to focus primarily on compounds since you will recover quickly and see lots of growth no matter what. Usually it is advanced lifters that talk about focusing more on growing particular muscles like the biceps using isolation work. (not that I like the isolation/compound terminology, which is obviously very imprecise)
I really appreciate your perspective and approach to teaching. If I've done your FFMI calculation right mine is insane as a natural. I'm an old millennial but I'm going to hit bodybuilding hard so I appreciate this content. How else can we support you?
Ok, so about a week back i did a 275 bench PR for the first time. I decided to go a 2nd rep on it and it was a huge grind and I was doing the valsava for 10ish seconds and found I was unusually sapped for the rest of the workout and could feel at the very least an unusual increase of cortisol after that lift. I wasn't mentally fatigued, as I was excited about a new PR. I wanted to keep working out. I labeled that as a rare case of CNS fatigue, was that not accurate? What do I call that then?
CNS fatigue how you describe it holds true for dynamic movements. However, using Overcoming Isometrics which if held long enough can produce size and strength, does have a CNS fatigue component, esp if you're pushing with everything you have for a prolonged period and doing this for multiple sets increasing the volume over time.
In my 10+ years of lifting I almost exclusively worked on compound lifts (other than specific work for calves and lateral delts as no compound lifts work on these) and my arms got massive very quickly and continue to grow even as an advanced lifter without doing any isolation work for my arms. Everyone who is denying what you stated in your video is likely not training at a sufficiently high enough intensity where both their biceps and back hit failure at approximately the same time.
I don't think anyone would deny that those compound movements grow your arms - the question is whether they cause enough hypertrophy to make isolation work obsolete. You'd need to compare compound movements vs compound + isolation movements in a study.
Not sure I understand how #1 is a myth. If rows only count for half a set of biceps compared to "direct" (aka isolation) movements like curls, then isn't that just the same thing as saying that curls are more effective than rows (for biceps growth)? To me, having to do twice as much of something for the same effect means that that thing is less effective.
The point here is that since you probably already do rows or pull-ups you don't need 15 sets of curls to meaningfully stimulate your biceps to grow, you could probably achieve the same result with 10 sets of curls and 10 sets of rows. The problem with this assumption is: Does the biceps get enough tension from rows to adequately recruit all motor units? If it doesn't, it may be just junk volume.
@@ksenryo No one is arguing that you need 15 sets of isolation exercises to stimulate a muscle to grow, though. Saying that compound movements can "meaningfully stimulate" muscle growth is different from saying that compound movements are just as effective as isolation movements. The "myth" in the video is: direct (isolation) exercises stimulate more growth than indirect (compound) exercises. What you're showing is that both compound and isolation movements are effective. This is pretty uncontroversial - of course they both stimulate some growth. But while they're both effective, aren't isolation movements *more* effective (on a per set basis), since you can take the target muscle closer to failure?
I had a severe "fatigue" twice, when doing my first 1RM at the deadlift and the OHP. I started to black out just before the lock out. For both, I felt fatigue, of course the usual tiredness after lifting, but the day after that and for about a week, I felt like I caught a cold, or had a lasting blood pressure drop. I felt lethargic, but my muscles weren't sore. I wonder what kind of fatigue this was.
as someone with chronic pain, sleep apnea, and mental health disorders, the CNS fatigue thing is definitely a true phenomenon. When everything aligns and I feel especially crappy, my max reps for a given weight will reduce by up to 10. I also have to limit the amount of cardio I do as I have a limited battery of energy every day to devote to exercise, otherwise I get really burned out and my lifts start going the other direction. As I have a background in medicine, the term central refers to neurology, and that refers to nerves and the brain. If you are fatigued centrally, you will be fatigued peripherally. Like if what you are saying is true, there is no such thing as fibromyalgia, myalgic encephalomyelitis, or chronic fatigue syndrome, as these disorders primarily deal with the central nervous system being very fatigued due to some unknown cause and that is either causing pain or extreme fatigue peripherally.
So if we're doing a biceps curl and I stop 5-10 reps before failure is that a 1/2 of the normal set or useless sandbagging? Because that's quite similar to biceps effort we get doing rows.
1:09 you are missing the tree for the woods, I have taught at least 12 people in last 3 years how to pull with their back vs their biceps and the difference is huge. Many people pull with their arms and their arms grow and their back doesn’t. You can certainly do a pull down in a way that your biceps are a primary mover and your back isn’t.
i stoped doing bicep isolation exersises for years, my arm shrinked like 4-5 cm. now i added curls again for a few weeks and by upper arms have growed like 1.5 cm already. when i row i dont use my biceps. i row with my lats, the dumbell just hang there in my hand
The facts about free weights vs. machines were also something that Dante Trudel addressed 20+ years ago. You’re not likely to have chicken legs if you can hack squat 6+ plates per side for reps (especially if your set is a widowmaker).
"Limited by willpower or time." There is such a thing as exhaustion. If i go all out on a full body workout the quality of the last exercises suffers and it is hard to keep going. Maybe my cardio is just too bad but the effect is certainly there. If you got unlimited time you could probably mitigate that. So maybe he is correct after all. I need to test that 😁
Cns fatigue or just fatigue what ever you want to call it may be local but when you train your whole body its not local its whole body and it adds up and can hit real fucking hard !
I think myth #2 started because lifters are less likely to control the negative when using machines compared to free weights, and controlling the negative is very important for muscle growth.
Menno I'm not sure if you have a video on this already, and I know there are videos on it out there. But would you consider making one for drop sets and when/why they are most effective? I'm just one year in but I tried drop sets for each muscle group for a while to switch thing up and experiment. I'm not sure if the tall skinny ectomorph body type is relevant. However I found drop sets works amazingly on shoulder growth and strength gains for me for some reason. What puzzles me isn't that they can be an effective tool. What puzzles me is WHY they are so effective for shoulders in particular. With my training log adding drop sets didn't have a big significance on other lifts down the line, but for shoulders in particular they were extremely effective. So just wondering if this is a topic you'd consider covering, cheers!
It's likely because your delts just can't push through that whole range of motion with the initial set weight, but because you lighten the load you can get more volume in meaning more time under tension. Also comparatively any weight changes are nominally larger in regards to delt strength than say pectorals (10% change on lateral raises may only be 2 lbs; for a bench it could be as much as 25-30lbs). The relative load doesn't change to a significant degree to see diminishing returns on a lateral raise, whereas the bench press generally will see you shoulders fatigue before your pecs drop setting in a similar fashion.
The #1 myth has some truth to it. For example you WILL get more glute and hamstring growth doing nordic curls than you will doing squats (because the quads fail first and the hamstrings and glutes aren't taken anywhere close to failure), but it's still a myth since some compound exercies can still take multiple muscles to failure or near failure making them as effective as isolations. And about fatigue, i'm not super sure what's really going on but i still seem to expirence somekind of lifting fatigue. So i would still feel energetic to do cardio and walk but if i want to train any muscle i just can't give it my full effort.
maybe CNS fatigue isn't real for bodybuilding training, but from a strength specific standpoint any strong athlete or coach will argue otherwise. As you get stronger you just cant generate the kind of maximal force output on a lift multiple times in a short period of time. Say my deadlift max is 660lbs, 300kg. I max out today. For most strength athletes, even if they think they're fully recovered would not be able to repeat that performance again 7 days later. I can do a powerlifting meet and my ability to train hard is in the gutter for days after that. Saying heavy lifts just exhaust you is splitting hairs over semantics. The lift has tired you in a way that isn't the same as muscle damage. Talk to any strong strength athlete and they'll tell you. You just cant lift that heavy all the time, even when your muscles feel fine. Exhaustion, CNS fatigue whatever. They're the same thing. Perhaps CNS fatigue would be better represented as extremely high acute stress. Maybe it doesn't affect your CNS in the way that many athletes and coaches think it does, but to sit here and act like there is nothing going on is... stupid.
Myth #3 seems more about what we are calling it than the fatigue itself As for Myth#4 I realised years ago that I have limited time in the gym per week so I decided that only arms and back matter to me so I only train those (yeah boohoo my legs are big enough anyway)
Seems to me that number 3 is more of terminology nitpicking than really a rejection of the idea. The way I always understood it is that there is a nervous system component to fatigue, progress, adaptation. And we know that it must be true, because that's the reason why a complete beginner makes huge lifting progress in first few weeks, without any muscle growth.
Your entire discussion on direct and indirect seems to miss that direct means the muscle that is intended to fail and indirect is secondary worked muscles that arent indended to fail. To use your row example, its direct for the lats, indirect for the biceps, because the biceps shouldnt be the limiting factor. Since getting close to failure helps hypertrophy, direct exerices by definition build more of the target muscle.
Myth 3. So it isn't so called CNS fatigue, but rather "I feel tired" through whatever other mechanism of action. Whatever you call it the effect is the same and it is a problem even if it is under a different name :) For example after heavy ass leg workout everything else I do even isolation exercises for small muscles (seated db curls) there sometimes is a significantly poorer performance. When you get sufficiently strong and go heavy there is no denying it ;) I guess I'm one of these weak willed. Thanks Menno
@@RayJackson88 Yeah buddy :) I encourage you or Menno or anybody to try something like what I've been doing and find out for yourself. The last 9 mezos (over a year now): One session do 5-8 sets of 200kg+ 5-10 reps 1-2 RIR (at the end of meso). After seated db curls to failure (weight is not moving an inch), all straight sets. Next session you flip and do curls first and then squat. Biceps first has no effect on my performance in squats whatsoever. At the begging of the meso the opposite is also true (squats don't effect biceps). However as the meso progresses and squats are getting from 3-4 RIR closer to 1-2 and in addition total sets increase it has a significant performance implications for curls. I would love to find out what is the cause. It might me my weak will as implied, who knows :) I have the data in my notebook for this and similar setups (triceps and deadlifits) from over the last 15 years I've been documenting my lifting. I'll take it over most things people say on the internet even the author. I encourage you to get strong enough and find out for yourself :)
Ok, so why is it wrong to redefine indirect as any muscle with a fractional volume contribution? Your argument seems unnecessarily contrarian on this point but maybe that is just for the views.
I would love to see a Mike Israetel response video to this. Particularly in relationto ‘myth’ one and two, which I only knoew about, because RP made me told me about them. (And I believed it).
Menno, i think there is a lot of confusion about first point. You say, that there is nothing "indirect" and point itself called in such a way that compounds stimulate the same growth for main muscles involved. Yet yourself saying that rows should be counting as 0,5 of set of volume unit. Such rendering that, basically, that isolation movement give one point. It's not clear for me personally what your stance is.
Rows vs curls is 1 exercise comparison. You cannot generalize that to *all* compound vs isolation exercise comparisons. That's the point. It's exercise specific.
I'm no expert, but some would argue that you don't truly need a day off, but that's probably more apparent if every exercise is *perfectly* isolated. In reality, muscles that get recruited secondarily over multiple days may not be fully recovered unless you're very meticulous about the lifts and diet and timing. For me personally, if I don't take a day off, I feel it in my neck and traps. An example would be carrying heavy dumbbells over to the bench, and lifting them up between sets. It may be chest day that day, but you might accumulate fatigue in other muscle groups inadvertantly.
Counting "indirect" muscles in compound exercises as half a set towards weekly volume, is a gamechanger, suddenly you don't need to do 5 different isolation exercises for arms for example.
You might be saying that to call it CNS fatigue is not a valid statement, but I say that calling it, bro science wouldn’t be a valid technical term either. Most people in the gym that follow the broscience approach just don’t worry about Feit at all in general. If you’re referring to common “science based “ lifters and influencers that might be more accurate. Let’s not put direct semantics into a box, yeah?
Please go to five hard sets of barbell squat and then five hard sets of dead lift, and tell me how much you want to train your forearms afterwards. Psychological fatigue is real. Systemic fatigue is real
Absolutely correct. I've had people try to debate me on your point. Turns out they can't squat or deadlift well and they have small forearms. Go figure. - Kris
The problem with biceps on rows (or pullups) is, that they aren't really required for the movement. You move your elbow and because your hand is attached to something gravity will flex the elbow for you if the biceps doesn't do it. Sure, it's active as stabilizer, but it should never be the limiting factor, not even close. It surely does something, just like sets with 8 RIR will do more than nothing. But if you want to maximize hypertrophy, you might want to add a bit more direct stimulus where you get that muscle closer to failure.
How does "gravity flex your elbow" in a row or pull up? Gravity ALWAYS acts downward on Earth and the only way to flex the elbow joint in that position is to use force out of the activating muscle, i.e. the biceps... Gravity, in no way, will close the elbow joint in this position.
@@RayJackson88 Just try it. Go to the pulldown machine, grab the bar and focus on leaving your arm relaxed. Just move your elbows from above your head to your waist. Will your elbow be straight when you get to the end of the motion?
Wait, the mind is real but the central nervous system isnt? Very Cartesian Menno. Maybe stick to positive suggestions rather than trying to debunk things never bunked in the first place.
3 makes no sense. Ofcourse CNS fatigue is real, thats why you cant slam deadlifts 5 days a week. I simply do not believe that is true. It might not be CNS fatigue, but does that prefix really matter? Why are powerlifters not training deadlifts 5 times a week? This should both strength their technique over time, and apparently get them stronger in the exercise according to this.
Regarding what it matters if it's systemic CNS fatigue or psychological fatigue, it actually matters a lot. For one, CNS fatigue causes nocebo effects, whereas the knowledge that it's mental fatigue should be empowering you to push harder. Second, CNS fatigue would have very different programming implications, like reducing workout length, deloading or reducing volume. Not having to worry about these things and knowing you can just keep pushing yourself is very valuable for people in my experience.
Menno couple follow-ups:
1. Myth #1 (direct vs indirect work): Does most back work actually meaningfully stimulate the biceps or is it mostly the other elbow flexors like the brachialis and brachioradialis?
During pulling motions, aren't the biceps generally lengthening at the shoulder while shortening at the elbow and thus wouldn't be able to contribute much force similar to the rectus femoris during a squat?
Additionally, in something like a close-grip, underhand pulldown with a vertical cable and/or a 1-arm dumbbell row, isn't the line of force from the cable or gravity generally parallel with the forearm rather than perpendicular and thus not able to generate much extension torque at the elbow which would provide tension while doing elbow flexion to actually stimulate the elbow flexors?
2. Myth #4 (volume redistribution): Are you saying that there isn't much advantage in a specialization phase for someone who has no real time constraints to get the additional volume in?
Like if you have the freedom and mental fortitude to add more days or sessions (maybe 2 a days 6x per week for a total of 12 training sessions/week) to add more volume to a specific muscle group you'd be fine keeping all the other muscles at their normal volume and there really isn't a systemic MAV/MRV that limits the maximum amount of muscle protein synthesis and/or damage recovery your body can actually handle?
Do you think someone needs to eat more protein/calories when adding more volume like that? Wouldn't the body need more "building materials" to produce more growth and recover?
52 sets per body part per week buddy. Sky is the limit. Check your scale for calorie adjustments - probably going to need a lot of carbs, so if you have any time left after doing your daily 300 set session, you should be boiling rice - then making sure you get deep REM sleep for 8-10 hours.
I think trying to pinpoint where in your arms your rows and pulls go is meaningless when you do 52 sets of them and then add all the curls in the world on top of it.
Remember to have fun - the gym is now your life.
1. Have you ever seen the biceps on an Olympic gymnast? They aren’t spending any time doing bicep isolation exercises though they have INSANE biceps from doing compound pulling movements or even straight arm work. If your hypothesis was correct that straight arm or pulling motions aren’t ideal for bicep growth then gymnasts wouldn’t consistently see great bicep hypertrophy from this type of training. You can debate mechanisms, though the results are clear.
2. On paper, there is no benefit from cutting load of one muscle and replacing it with another. In practice, starting your workouts with the prioritized muscle group or reducing your cumulative fatigue by reducing lower priority muscles/exercises should give you more ability to push yourself on your key movements. Even if it isn’t “CNS fatigue”, no one has the same level of focus & intensity 2hrs into their workout as they did in the first 30mins. Call it mental exhaustion, reduced energy, whatever, the reality is your ability to push yourself to the max gradually diminishes over the course of your workout. It may not be a steep drop from 1 exercise to the next, but it certainly becomes material over long spans of time and more sets into it.
@@iwatchdemvids
1. Yea I'm just completely speculating here based on what I've learned about other biarticular muscles and wondering why it wouldn't apply for the biceps.
But in regard to gymnasts, bodyweight exercises like pull-ups or inverted rows are actually exempt from my second point about the forces being parallel vs perpendicular.
Since the resistance is coming from your bodyweight which is attached at the shoulder it actually creates a moment arm and torque on the elbow that is fully perpendicular!
This is notably different than a cable in close grip pulldowns or dumbbells in 1-arm rows or many other traditional pulling exercises in the gym where the force is coming from something in your hands and thus pretty parallel to the forearm (and creating minimal elbow torque) most of the times.
So I could see gymnasts doing bodyweight exercises being great for the biceps, or at least the other elbow flexors if the biarticular biceps don't end up contributing that much, since the other elbow flexors are still in the arms it would still make the arms look larger pushing up the biceps too even though it may not be specifically due to biceps growth.
That's why I was hoping Menno could possibly clarify his thoughts on this!
2. I basically agree!!
It just seemed like Menno was saying there was no reason to reduce volume and specialize on specific muscles and I wanted clarity since I've seen many other evidence-based sources promote specialization phases.
I especially think that if you have the time and split things with AM and PM sessions you could maybe get around some of the energy/exhaustion problems so I was wondering if Menno really thought it's feasible to do a super high volume program across the entire body like that assuming you have the time and there would be no advantage to reducing volume in some muscles to grow others more.
@@iwatchdemvids "gymnast dont do any direct arm work" LMAO
@@iwatchdemvids Come on now, gymnasts lift weights including the biceps. Given, the pulling movements help too.
It's called indirect because the muscle isn't limiting the movement and doesn't get close to failure, thus stimulating much less growth
what is MUCH less? Half? 25%?
@@danielferrer9464it's not defined which makes it hard to quantify.
Exactly. Just bc my biceps contract on rows, doesnt mean theyre close to failure
I get the argument, but the terms are poor descriptively.
@@LUKA_911 it still counts as volume even if you don't reach failure, without taking that into account you run the risk of overtraining
Completely disagree on the CNS fatigue point. Whenever I do my heavy deadlift day im always wrecked for the next 24-48 hours. This also never occurs with local muscle fatigue or DOMS, or on any other heavy compound lift days like squat or bench. And ive been lifting heavy 6 days a week for 2 years straight, so this isnt a case of "mental exhaustion" either..
Completely agree with you. I've even had my hands shaking randomly during a time I was working out for 7 days a week for about 3 months. It would get worse after days I had done more compounds, specially deadlifts.
The fatigue mechanism described is rather what Menno is describing, but he did not explain the phenomenon incredibly well. Circumstances surrounding near maximal efforts do not generate the same markers of supraspinal fatigue, but this does keep us in a state of elevated arousal which inhibits our parasympathetic nervous system. Those heavy lifts won't keep you from being able to do other work in the session, but a longer set can. An athletic performance will have a similar effect.
Deadlifts are "different" in this because of the breadth of muscles involved, thus you will prefatigue a lot of other muscles and might experience discomfort from hard bracing which does reduce force output.
I don't think you're wrong, merely there is a need to distinguish some types of fatigue as Menno notes.
@zacharylaschober agreed and that was very well said, thank you
No offense but if you're wrecked for 2 days from some heavy deadlifts, that may just mean you're a little soft. Maybe get your testosterone checked or maybe work to improve your overall work capacity? I think a lot of serious lifters are just over sensitive to any type/level of fatigue/discomfort. Too many videos obsessing over rest and recovery and people get neurotic about it and it becomes a mental thing. I've done it myself at times, I'm in my 40's and am doing pretty heavy construction work 5 days a week, and I still lift heavy 6 days a week, workout 7 days a week, swim, box, run, bike, and I never really feel physically fatigued. And I'm not saying I'm some amazing specimen, just the opposite, I'm just an average guy. I think most people would feel the same if they weren't thinking about it so much, or so sensitive about it
@eddiehauser6661 don't where you're coming up with this "obsession over rest." it isnt a matter of work capacity or T levels at 31 years old, and as I've already stated my man I've been lifting 6-7 days every week for 2 years straight, minus Christmas and Thanksgiving. If working out over 2 hours everyday is taking it easy, then please enlighten me. Now part of that fatigue can be chalked up to my calorie intake as I don't bulk and I only increase calories around my deadlift day. I also do 30-60 minutes of cardio after every workout. But if rdl's at 405lbs at 8 reps of 6 sets is being "soft" at 2 years in the gym, then let me know what's hardcore.
What is mental fatigue if not fatigue in brain that is big part of central nervous system. What is tiredness or lack of will power if not a brain issue? We don't have any "will" outside our brain
Mental fatigue is psychology. RPE is mostly bunk. People are not good at gauging their actual performance beforehand.
I can't even tell you how many times I've gone into the gym feeling like shit and hit PRs. The way you feel emotionally has more to do with life stress than it does with physical readiness.
Also, this isn't talking about connective tissue fatigue at all, just your muscular readiness.
Having an illness or internal hemorrhaging causes fatigue, large calorie deficits can cause fatigue; probably a lot of things that are overtaxing the body's limited resources will signal fatigue in a way that's more than local or purely psychological.
"mental fatigue"
"exhaustion"
"I feel tired"
-Me, week 10 of 12 week cut
You got this bro 💪💪💪
I take volume from one muscle group and add it to another because I only have five hours a week in the gym.
only? that's a ton of time
@@user-pr7pd9wd5b He might just mean five hours to spare, which isn't that much tbh. Especially if you can only go at a time where the gym is busy.
Same, it's why I superset damn near everything now. Or "giant set" by some definitions. I do 6-7 days of 15-20 min sessions.
I superset 3-4 exercises a day, going to failure or very close.
you only have five hours lol? that's enough for a 6 day PPL split of you superset some, and definitely enough for 5 day PPL or any other split
The central fatigue stuff . Idk I really feel like doing 4 sets of deadlifts really impairs my following exercises ,even if they are very local, like lateral raises ....
It does. The problem with these science guys is they completely disregard anecdote and take research as law no matter what, even if we have direct evidence from decades of other lifters that completely contradicts it
@shades4313 I mean maybe the research is technically correct as in the fatigue is not caused by the central nervous system BUT they should address that there is some form of fatigue nonetheless, I refuse to think that I and so many others are just "imagining" to be tired after deadlifts and squats.
I think that's a problem with terminology here. Henselmans refers to a concept of systemic fatigue that build over a long period of time and can impact you for days or even weeks if you don't manage it. What you describe is probably closer to exhaustion due to depletetion of locally and systemically available ATP storage and the cardiovascular limitations of your body.
@@DangerSquigglesexactly, people are getting butthurt because they don't realize they've been using the wrong terms to describe what's going on. CNS and central fatigue exist, they are technical terms describing something specific, someone at some point thought this applied to resistance training, and it turns out that that type of fatigue is different. Accept it and move on.
Hrm, so if we cannot shift volume from some muscles to others, and if we have research showing better growth when doing 43-52+ weekly sets to failure for a single muscle group (like quads in the Enes study), are you saying we'd expect no issues from doing 52+ sets for all of our muscles all at once? That doesn't seem plausible.
Dr. Bro gotta explain some things 😅
Yeah, I felt like Menno was being a bit too literal on that one. In most circumstances, adding volume to a body part on a weekly basis means something else is going to have to step aside. There's only so much time and effort to go around.
Exactly
Of course you would, because none of your muscle groups are accustomed to that volume. You'd far exceed your maximum recoverable volume on most of your muscle groups and the only one that handled 52 sets in that test group was quads. You could work your way up to 52 sets of quads, but other muscle groups? Gonna be up to genes. Regardless this is all local fatigue.
I mean, a lot of high level athletes are training twice a day with a cardio/conditioning session on top of that, plus sport specific work.
If training was your job, you could probably make it work as long as you followed all the usual caveats (ramp up slowly over time, load management, recovery, etc.)
If one thinks they can excel in pullups by doing machine pulldowns, they are sorely mistaken.
It depends. If the person doing machine pulldowns develops more muscle than the persone who does pull-ups, the machine guy will in theory be able to get stronger at pull-ups aswell. But the person doing pull-ups is increasing in the pull-up skill it self so often they excell in real world. You could argue for pull-ups develops more of essential core/supportive muscle needed for the pull-up movement. Witch could be correct, but that depends on execution of both variants.
@sts3118 While theoretically you're not wrong I have yet to see this manifested irl. But I get what you're saying, true
Pull ups have a skill component that the pull-down doesn't train
@KO-yh1er yep
Maybe symatics cns fatigue. Deadlifts just take more out of me and my spine than anything else. I just call that cns fatigue. Maybe wrong words. Seems nit picky.
"Fatigue" is just reality, Dr. Bro has a lot of explaining to do
100%
I get insomnia and feel ''wired'' after I deadlift heavy for me i.e multiple low rep sets (say 5x3) with 180kg
Mental fatigue is a real thing.I think it is similar to having a hard day at work.: Anything that takes a lot of effort and maybe even emotional agitation like a deadlift will take more out of you than doing the same sets in a machine.
Call it CNS fatigue, burnout, whatever.. but my personal experience goes counter to this idea that fatigue is local, and as a result you can't shuffle volume. I pulled back a bit on quad training and was able to get a lot more intensity and an equal amount of extra volume on my hamstrings.
The body is a unit. It's not that exerting your quads puts fatigue on your hamstrings, but rather it builds up fatigue on your ancillary muscles (glutes, core) and on the brain that then becomes limiting factors when training your hamstrings.
quite likely it isnt and its a problem on focusing too much on one area. heavy training/fatigue leads to inflammation. inflammation is highly connected to depression. some researchers go so far and claim all depression is induced by inflammation (which is probably also not correct, there are just multiple pathways). if you train hard and your body - although just locally - has an inflammation all the time it will def. effect your mental health similar like a mild depression
Never had your problem, can go hard weeks and weeks, I only need to get enough food and sleep
IDK how you call it, but after a leg day I am just unable to make, for example, shoulders.
Maybe the name is incorrect, but I think we can agreee that we all feel something that feels like "central fatigue".
#3 and #4 where confusing as to them being myths at all.
Anyone who trains for something else will know that #3 is a thing. I started lifting to be strong and more resilient to play tennis, but if I play tennis at my current high intensity, I will be worn out, fatigued and sore enough so as to not be able to lift that day and that's ok, that's what I lift for...initially anyways, I genuinely am taking a liking to lifting now I "get it".
Similarly for #4, I don't see how skipping my hated, but oh so effective, split squats will allow me to do more overhead tricep exercises.
Did you watch the video? He literally said that cardiovascular or endurance exercise is going to cause fatigue
@ yes I saw the video, I can’t believe people believed that myth in the first place.
@@JohnM-cd4ou reading your comment gives me fatigue
These arguments just feel very nitpicky. The argument that you can achieve equivalent growth in the biceps on a seated row as you can in a bicep curl is simply preposterous. The argument clearly is bringing some ceteris paribus conditions. Can you get the same growth if you do enough compound vs. iso? Yes, you can. But I fail to understand why that is relevant - nobody cares if you can get the same biceps growth with 20 sets of rows as you can with 4 sets of curls.
Imagine counting dumbbell rows as 0.5 bicep curls.
Well according to the idea that you should count it as half set, you actually would need 8 sets of rows not 20.
I think he us nutpicking for the sake to stirr and get clicks.
@@caiqueportoliraI get hung up on why this is equivalent. I thought we were supposed to be going close to failure to optimize growth.
@@dcuccia yeah, and if "fatigue doesn't exist" then why not always train to failure? Anything else is just lazy.
It blows my mind how convoluted people have made a relatively simple task like lifting weights. I feel like if anyone is struggling in the "gains" department it's because they've let suicidal media fitness get inside their head and are overthinking it like crazy. Just lift. And if the muscles targeted during the workout are tired and have a pump.... and you sweated.... you just had a good workout. It's not rocket science. It's literally picking up and putting down heavy objects. The only advice I'd say one needs is - 1) lift with proper form doing full ROM.... if you want to cheat the last few reps in the contraction phase of the lift but control the negative - that's fine... if not highly recommended. It's ensuring you're lifting to failure if not beyond... so to speak. 2) Be CONSISTENT. with every fiber in your body do NOT miss a workout. It will happen but it should be incredibly rare. Even if you're not 100% doing a half assed workout at 50% effort is 100x better than doing..... nothing. 3) If you're not making a weird face on the last 2-3 reps of every working set.... you're not trying hard enough. 4) sleep is almost as crucial as your actual workout.... assuming you're lifting as described previously. 5) want to gain weight... increase portion sizes of what you're already eating. It's a given what you are eating isn't pure shit and you're consuming proper nutrition. Want to lose weight.... yup.... decrease the portion sizes of what you're currently eating OR.... toss in 20-30 minutes of LISS cardio at the end of your lifting session. Yes, good old fashioned, boring Low Intensity Steady State cardio.... like walking on a treadmill or casually riding a bike......... that's about it. Everything else is just..... fluff/extra. For the average person getting into lifting mainly for health reasons and to just look better naked.... it's fluff. Because guess what.... I love fitness youtube as much as the next guy, specifically the actual natural, "science based" youtubers. But if you buy one of their programs (I recommend that... especially if you're going to the gym with no plan at all) you'll find....... they're loaded with the tried and true standard exercises/movements. Why? Because lifting is NOT complicated. It might be hard.... as in physically demanding - but thats the point.
Oh.. bonus tip.... if hypertrophy is your main if not only goal - you need far LESS weight than you think you do. Just focus on the muscle, proper form, and a slowish CONTROLLED tempo in the negative/lowering/lengthing of the muscle phase.
Yeah but i watch this channel for entertainment not like im gonna implement any of this advice unless im a pro bodybuilder. Also funny you complain about making lifting convoluted and then proceed to write an entire essay
I knew it! Zercher Deadlifts and Zercher squats are key for bicep growth
everything trains biceps now apparently
myth 3.: heavy training/fatigue leads to inflammation. inflammation is highly connected to depression. the body signals clearly it needs recovery and one should move as little as possible. also body and mind are one unit. fatigue exists locally but the information is highly processed in the brain, it seems dumb to separate it like that.
1) How do rows stimulate the biceps? Seems like the lats and rear delts are doing the pulling. I'm talking bent over rows and cable rows.
2) I heard that it takes one month to recover from doing your 1 rep max. Is that true? After a power lifting meet, how long before someone could do their one rep max again?
Regarding the fractional volume: What if the fractional volume in secondary muscles is just too easy to generate any growth? Isn´t there a minimum intensitiy level that needs to be activated to generate noticeable growth?
For example: If my back is close to failure in the barbell row, my biceps may still have 10 reps in the tank. That means you may train your Back with 3 RIP, but your biceps with 10+ RIP. I don´t think you can really count that as muscle adding volume?
Are "mini cuts" dead?
Curious your perspective given the meta analysis that >500 kcal deficits cause reduction in lean muscle mass.
For 2. People also underestimate how shit machines can be. Some matrix machines are dog shit, with terrible resistance profiles or no range of motion.
if it provides resistance it's good enough for me
Coach Henselman:
Your channel is absolutely underrated.
Thanks for your lessons.
To maybe raise interaction with your videos and work the algorith, ask your viewers to comment.
Greetings from germany
So, follow up. There was the 52 set study, and Dr Mike and Wolf both joked that obviously you would explode if you tried a ramping progression like this for all muscles. Are you saying that because fatigue is local, you wouldn't and could run something like that for all bodyparts?
Regarding myth #2: Heavy (pound-for-pound) free weight require stronger stabilizing muscles (and connective tissue). Stronger than average stabilizing muscles allow for extraordinary balancing capacity, for example. And cables allow better muscular tension throughout full ROM - especially compared to machines.
Regarding myth #3: It is completely possible to execute a 1 RM - using full range of motion and excellent form - and end up with complete muscle failure, not being able to continue on with your training. But I would classify that as 'physical fatigue and exhaustion' - NOT 'mental exhaustion.' As long as the mind is willing, and you've done the very best on that day, it's more likely physical exhaustion. Keep in mind, I'm referring to bro splits here while being natural.
I'm doing hybrid training, keeping at least 4 hours between lift then run workouts. CNS fatigue, or something is happening. I do work hard at getting good rest, but I do have a huge stress load in my life as well. I wonder if fight or flight-vagus nerve stuff is effecting me or if I'm just doing too much running. I would love to find more info about this. Great vid!!!
I thought that proximity to failure was one of the most important factors in relation to muscle growth?
I know my biceps are no where near failure after several sets of rows. In fact I like to do dumbbell biceps curls after my dumbbell rows. As the weight is about 1/3 and feels so light
excellent video Menno, please keep this format
Free weights are still better for function. Sure I could do hamstrings and lower back on machines but that's not going to teach me how to pick heavy shit up off the floor.
Central fatigue or motor neur fatigue .. if u ever trained twice a day say a weightlifting session and a technical session Boxing or mma... I usually feel tired yes but it ends up causing insomnia needless to say it causes moorning fog and I won't be able to train next day
CNS fatigue is NOT muscle fatigue, but cerebral fatigue. Lifting weights has 2 components: central cerebral activity to control your muscles and local muscle activity. When EITHER (or both) of these two components is compromised, you will be weaker. So it's absolutely possible that after a particularly CNS challenging session your muscles locally are still OK, but your brain finds it much more difficult to contract and coordinate them. The net result is that you can lift less or that your stamina is reduced. 🤓
I have to disagree that the fatigue from a heavy workout is all "mental". When I do a killer leg-day workout, I'm "physically" tired. My energy stores have been used up. I can't immediately follow a brutal leg workout with some other body part. I need to physically rest for a while, let my metabolism catch up, and eat some more food. If I don't rest and jump right into other body part, then that body part will not get the full benefit of a good session.
If we didn't need physical rest, then we should be able to do an effective full body workout all in one (long) session. But of course, we know that would not work well.
Solid work as always menno
One thing I would caution about is when looking at studies like the Single vs. Multi-Joint Resistance Exercises one, they often use untrained subjects. Do the same conclusions hold when talking about intermediate or advanced lifters? Typically I see the advice for untrained people is to focus primarily on compounds since you will recover quickly and see lots of growth no matter what. Usually it is advanced lifters that talk about focusing more on growing particular muscles like the biceps using isolation work. (not that I like the isolation/compound terminology, which is obviously very imprecise)
I really appreciate your perspective and approach to teaching. If I've done your FFMI calculation right mine is insane as a natural. I'm an old millennial but I'm going to hit bodybuilding hard so I appreciate this content. How else can we support you?
Ok, so about a week back i did a 275 bench PR for the first time. I decided to go a 2nd rep on it and it was a huge grind and I was doing the valsava for 10ish seconds and found I was unusually sapped for the rest of the workout and could feel at the very least an unusual increase of cortisol after that lift. I wasn't mentally fatigued, as I was excited about a new PR. I wanted to keep working out.
I labeled that as a rare case of CNS fatigue, was that not accurate? What do I call that then?
CNS fatigue how you describe it holds true for dynamic movements. However, using Overcoming Isometrics which if held long enough can produce size and strength, does have a CNS fatigue component, esp if you're pushing with everything you have for a prolonged period and doing this for multiple sets increasing the volume over time.
In my 10+ years of lifting I almost exclusively worked on compound lifts (other than specific work for calves and lateral delts as no compound lifts work on these) and my arms got massive very quickly and continue to grow even as an advanced lifter without doing any isolation work for my arms. Everyone who is denying what you stated in your video is likely not training at a sufficiently high enough intensity where both their biceps and back hit failure at approximately the same time.
I don't think anyone would deny that those compound movements grow your arms - the question is whether they cause enough hypertrophy to make isolation work obsolete. You'd need to compare compound movements vs compound + isolation movements in a study.
can't wait for sticky ricky's 5hours reaction video
the goat apreciate smart dudes telling crayon eating lifters like me how to move heavy circles
Not sure I understand how #1 is a myth. If rows only count for half a set of biceps compared to "direct" (aka isolation) movements like curls, then isn't that just the same thing as saying that curls are more effective than rows (for biceps growth)? To me, having to do twice as much of something for the same effect means that that thing is less effective.
The point here is that since you probably already do rows or pull-ups you don't need 15 sets of curls to meaningfully stimulate your biceps to grow, you could probably achieve the same result with 10 sets of curls and 10 sets of rows.
The problem with this assumption is: Does the biceps get enough tension from rows to adequately recruit all motor units? If it doesn't, it may be just junk volume.
@@ksenryo No one is arguing that you need 15 sets of isolation exercises to stimulate a muscle to grow, though. Saying that compound movements can "meaningfully stimulate" muscle growth is different from saying that compound movements are just as effective as isolation movements. The "myth" in the video is: direct (isolation) exercises stimulate more growth than indirect (compound) exercises. What you're showing is that both compound and isolation movements are effective. This is pretty uncontroversial - of course they both stimulate some growth. But while they're both effective, aren't isolation movements *more* effective (on a per set basis), since you can take the target muscle closer to failure?
@menno.henselmans how does fit with RP's "systemic fatigue"?
I had a severe "fatigue" twice, when doing my first 1RM at the deadlift and the OHP. I started to black out just before the lock out. For both, I felt fatigue, of course the usual tiredness after lifting, but the day after that and for about a week, I felt like I caught a cold, or had a lasting blood pressure drop. I felt lethargic, but my muscles weren't sore. I wonder what kind of fatigue this was.
Thanks for sharing this! 💪🏻
as someone with chronic pain, sleep apnea, and mental health disorders, the CNS fatigue thing is definitely a true phenomenon. When everything aligns and I feel especially crappy, my max reps for a given weight will reduce by up to 10. I also have to limit the amount of cardio I do as I have a limited battery of energy every day to devote to exercise, otherwise I get really burned out and my lifts start going the other direction. As I have a background in medicine, the term central refers to neurology, and that refers to nerves and the brain. If you are fatigued centrally, you will be fatigued peripherally. Like if what you are saying is true, there is no such thing as fibromyalgia, myalgic encephalomyelitis, or chronic fatigue syndrome, as these disorders primarily deal with the central nervous system being very fatigued due to some unknown cause and that is either causing pain or extreme fatigue peripherally.
Anecdotal "evidence" is not evidence. I saw Jesus once, doesn't mean he exists
So if we're doing a biceps curl and I stop 5-10 reps before failure is that a 1/2 of the normal set or useless sandbagging? Because that's quite similar to biceps effort we get doing rows.
1:09 you are missing the tree for the woods, I have taught at least 12 people in last 3 years how to pull with their back vs their biceps and the difference is huge. Many people pull with their arms and their arms grow and their back doesn’t. You can certainly do a pull down in a way that your biceps are a primary mover and your back isn’t.
i stoped doing bicep isolation exersises for years, my arm shrinked like 4-5 cm. now i added curls again for a few weeks and by upper arms have growed like 1.5 cm already. when i row i dont use my biceps. i row with my lats, the dumbell just hang there in my hand
The facts about free weights vs. machines were also something that Dante Trudel addressed 20+ years ago. You’re not likely to have chicken legs if you can hack squat 6+ plates per side for reps (especially if your set is a widowmaker).
"Limited by willpower or time."
There is such a thing as exhaustion.
If i go all out on a full body workout the quality of the last exercises suffers and it is hard to keep going.
Maybe my cardio is just too bad but the effect is certainly there.
If you got unlimited time you could probably mitigate that. So maybe he is correct after all.
I need to test that 😁
Cns fatigue or just fatigue what ever you want to call it may be local but when you train your whole body its not local its whole body and it adds up and can hit real fucking hard !
I think myth #2 started because lifters are less likely to control the negative when using machines compared to free weights, and controlling the negative is very important for muscle growth.
Okay, some days I can't psych myself up for heavy lifts as I can other days. What is the remedy for this?
The CNS one suprised me a lot. Good to know!
Menno I'm not sure if you have a video on this already, and I know there are videos on it out there. But would you consider making one for drop sets and when/why they are most effective? I'm just one year in but I tried drop sets for each muscle group for a while to switch thing up and experiment. I'm not sure if the tall skinny ectomorph body type is relevant. However I found drop sets works amazingly on shoulder growth and strength gains for me for some reason.
What puzzles me isn't that they can be an effective tool. What puzzles me is WHY they are so effective for shoulders in particular. With my training log adding drop sets didn't have a big significance on other lifts down the line, but for shoulders in particular they were extremely effective. So just wondering if this is a topic you'd consider covering, cheers!
It's likely because your delts just can't push through that whole range of motion with the initial set weight, but because you lighten the load you can get more volume in meaning more time under tension. Also comparatively any weight changes are nominally larger in regards to delt strength than say pectorals (10% change on lateral raises may only be 2 lbs; for a bench it could be as much as 25-30lbs). The relative load doesn't change to a significant degree to see diminishing returns on a lateral raise, whereas the bench press generally will see you shoulders fatigue before your pecs drop setting in a similar fashion.
Always interresting to know something new or something old if Menno talk about it
“Man, how can he be so beautiful?”
-Dc. Mike Israetel
Taking lower body volume away to add to upper body is more of a time consideration for most people
Can you clarify what Dr Mike Israetel means when he says systemic fatigue and if it's a real thing?
The #1 myth has some truth to it. For example you WILL get more glute and hamstring growth doing nordic curls than you will doing squats (because the quads fail first and the hamstrings and glutes aren't taken anywhere close to failure), but it's still a myth since some compound exercies can still take multiple muscles to failure or near failure making them as effective as isolations. And about fatigue, i'm not super sure what's really going on but i still seem to expirence somekind of lifting fatigue. So i would still feel energetic to do cardio and walk but if i want to train any muscle i just can't give it my full effort.
maybe CNS fatigue isn't real for bodybuilding training, but from a strength specific standpoint any strong athlete or coach will argue otherwise. As you get stronger you just cant generate the kind of maximal force output on a lift multiple times in a short period of time. Say my deadlift max is 660lbs, 300kg. I max out today. For most strength athletes, even if they think they're fully recovered would not be able to repeat that performance again 7 days later. I can do a powerlifting meet and my ability to train hard is in the gutter for days after that.
Saying heavy lifts just exhaust you is splitting hairs over semantics. The lift has tired you in a way that isn't the same as muscle damage. Talk to any strong strength athlete and they'll tell you. You just cant lift that heavy all the time, even when your muscles feel fine. Exhaustion, CNS fatigue whatever. They're the same thing. Perhaps CNS fatigue would be better represented as extremely high acute stress. Maybe it doesn't affect your CNS in the way that many athletes and coaches think it does, but to sit here and act like there is nothing going on is... stupid.
Would you say chinups and dips are equally effective for bicep and tricep growth and one can simply stop bicep and tricep isolation work?
@Markus-fw4px Thats incorrect as it hits both if youre starting at a dead hang. Please spare me anymore worthless input. Thanks.
@Sonic_1000 Oh wow, you also need lats/back for chin-ups? Your brilliance is truly astounding.
Myth #3 seems more about what we are calling it than the fatigue itself
As for Myth#4 I realised years ago that I have limited time in the gym per week so I decided that only arms and back matter to me so I only train those (yeah boohoo my legs are big enough anyway)
Don’t agree with myth no.3 deadlifts and squats do take a lot out of you and recovery time takes longer and can affect output in other lifts
Seems to me that number 3 is more of terminology nitpicking than really a rejection of the idea. The way I always understood it is that there is a nervous system component to fatigue, progress, adaptation. And we know that it must be true, because that's the reason why a complete beginner makes huge lifting progress in first few weeks, without any muscle growth.
thank you dr menno
Your entire discussion on direct and indirect seems to miss that direct means the muscle that is intended to fail and indirect is secondary worked muscles that arent indended to fail. To use your row example, its direct for the lats, indirect for the biceps, because the biceps shouldnt be the limiting factor.
Since getting close to failure helps hypertrophy, direct exerices by definition build more of the target muscle.
Myth 3. So it isn't so called CNS fatigue, but rather "I feel tired" through whatever other mechanism of action. Whatever you call it the effect is the same and it is a problem even if it is under a different name :) For example after heavy ass leg workout everything else I do even isolation exercises for small muscles (seated db curls) there sometimes is a significantly poorer performance. When you get sufficiently strong and go heavy there is no denying it ;) I guess I'm one of these weak willed. Thanks Menno
"I guess I'm one of these weak willed."
It sure sounds like it if your "heavy ass leg day" affects you seated db curl...
@@RayJackson88 Yeah buddy :) I encourage you or Menno or anybody to try something like what I've been doing and find out for yourself.
The last 9 mezos (over a year now): One session do 5-8 sets of 200kg+ 5-10 reps 1-2 RIR (at the end of meso). After seated db curls to failure (weight is not moving an inch), all straight sets. Next session you flip and do curls first and then squat.
Biceps first has no effect on my performance in squats whatsoever.
At the begging of the meso the opposite is also true (squats don't effect biceps). However as the meso progresses and squats are getting from 3-4 RIR closer to 1-2 and in addition total sets increase it has a significant performance implications for curls.
I would love to find out what is the cause. It might me my weak will as implied, who knows :) I have the data in my notebook for this and similar setups (triceps and deadlifits) from over the last 15 years I've been documenting my lifting. I'll take it over most things people say on the internet even the author. I encourage you to get strong enough and find out for yourself :)
Ok, so why is it wrong to redefine indirect as any muscle with a fractional volume contribution? Your argument seems unnecessarily contrarian on this point but maybe that is just for the views.
Cheers for great info
Can mental fatigue just be ignored with no change in muscle growth?
I would love to see a Mike Israetel response video to this. Particularly in relationto ‘myth’ one and two, which I only knoew about, because RP made me told me about them. (And I believed it).
Myth 3. Finally. Big FU to the people who say you can't train every day.
Menno, i think there is a lot of confusion about first point. You say, that there is nothing "indirect" and point itself called in such a way that compounds stimulate the same growth for main muscles involved. Yet yourself saying that rows should be counting as 0,5 of set of volume unit. Such rendering that, basically, that isolation movement give one point. It's not clear for me personally what your stance is.
Rows vs curls is 1 exercise comparison. You cannot generalize that to *all* compound vs isolation exercise comparisons. That's the point. It's exercise specific.
@@menno.henselmans , thank you Menno.
Free weights have a stabilising muscle influence. 😊
That actually was my Mom.
Thought it was going to be clickbait and just the same old myths again. But I'm pleasantly surprised. Thanks Menno!
“Your mom” hahaha. Good timing🤙🏽
If you are trying to peak your bench( ie: a real life time PB)then you really need to ease off on squats and dead’s
So if CNS fatigue is a myth why would you ever need a day off if you have recovery time between muscle parts?
I'm no expert, but some would argue that you don't truly need a day off, but that's probably more apparent if every exercise is *perfectly* isolated. In reality, muscles that get recruited secondarily over multiple days may not be fully recovered unless you're very meticulous about the lifts and diet and timing. For me personally, if I don't take a day off, I feel it in my neck and traps. An example would be carrying heavy dumbbells over to the bench, and lifting them up between sets. It may be chest day that day, but you might accumulate fatigue in other muscle groups inadvertantly.
I strongly disagree with Menno on the isolation vs compound thing.
Counting "indirect" muscles in compound exercises as half a set towards weekly volume, is a gamechanger, suddenly you don't need to do 5 different isolation exercises for arms for example.
Will a long steroid cycle cause cns fatigue?
You might be saying that to call it CNS fatigue is not a valid statement, but I say that calling it, bro science wouldn’t be a valid technical term either. Most people in the gym that follow the broscience approach just don’t worry about Feit at all in general. If you’re referring to common “science based “ lifters and influencers that might be more accurate. Let’s not put direct semantics into a box, yeah?
So there's no point of a deload?
Please go to five hard sets of barbell squat and then five hard sets of dead lift, and tell me how much you want to train your forearms afterwards.
Psychological fatigue is real. Systemic fatigue is real
Absolutely correct. I've had people try to debate me on your point. Turns out they can't squat or deadlift well and they have small forearms. Go figure. - Kris
@ this isn’t the answer to everything. Even done very well these lifts are just fatiguing in a way that is different from bicep curls.
If i knew i could have worked out using my momma I would've never bought a dumbell. What a waste of doe
🤯
Thank you
your conent is criminally underrated, keep up the good work
Science must be wrong in so many ways. I do two sets of DL and I’m objectively cooked and exhausted. Nothing mental there.
11:50 So Lyle McDonal was wrong
Amen brother!
And for the second time today: FIRST!
Bro trying to slip in a mammas joke lol
Only #2 is a myth. This was a disappointing video.
Yo Menno...what did you say about my mom? 😂
When I contract my mind, everything grows bro... urghhh!
The problem with biceps on rows (or pullups) is, that they aren't really required for the movement. You move your elbow and because your hand is attached to something gravity will flex the elbow for you if the biceps doesn't do it. Sure, it's active as stabilizer, but it should never be the limiting factor, not even close. It surely does something, just like sets with 8 RIR will do more than nothing. But if you want to maximize hypertrophy, you might want to add a bit more direct stimulus where you get that muscle closer to failure.
How does "gravity flex your elbow" in a row or pull up? Gravity ALWAYS acts downward on Earth and the only way to flex the elbow joint in that position is to use force out of the activating muscle, i.e. the biceps... Gravity, in no way, will close the elbow joint in this position.
@@RayJackson88 Just try it. Go to the pulldown machine, grab the bar and focus on leaving your arm relaxed. Just move your elbows from above your head to your waist. Will your elbow be straight when you get to the end of the motion?
Wait, the mind is real but the central nervous system isnt? Very Cartesian Menno. Maybe stick to positive suggestions rather than trying to debunk things never bunked in the first place.
3 makes no sense. Ofcourse CNS fatigue is real, thats why you cant slam deadlifts 5 days a week. I simply do not believe that is true. It might not be CNS fatigue, but does that prefix really matter?
Why are powerlifters not training deadlifts 5 times a week? This should both strength their technique over time, and apparently get them stronger in the exercise according to this.
Heavy work makes you fatiqued many ways but none of them is cns fatique. How IS this so difficult to understand? Neural signaling doesn't go down!
Sorry but Data>Your Feelings
@@eemil05 Neural signaling does go down locally, even he IS saying it multiple times, seems like you didn't understand :)
@@eemil05 Who gives a fuck whet it is labeled? Point is that it makes you fatiqued. That myth is not "keeping me small" Sorry menno.
@@mirosawworon9285 cns! Signaling power and frequency in cns doesn't. Periferal is different. Live and learn...
That woman on the hamstring curl needs to up the weight. She's smiling too much.