I really enjoyed this video it has me helped out a lot. The different camera angle's during each point within the traffic pattern along with the way you teach is impressive/helpful.
I was taught this technique with a Cessna 150. It brings some risk with a retractable-gear aircraft, however. In the latter case, I would not risk confusing the gear handle with the flaps lever.
One interesting point here is everybody put emphasis on power and pitch for air speed. Nobody really teaches the proper amount of decent rate. Obviously if you were flying 60 kts and going to touchdown, but your sink rate is 600 ft./min. you’re going to hit pretty hard. Once you have crossed the runway threshold and have cleared all obstacles, you should maintain your desired air, speed and slow the aircraft decent rate to less than 400 ft./min. This way, when you begin to flare, it’s just a matter of a small reduction in power prior to contact with the runway surface. One other thing to remember is that if you have a change in wind, it will affect the outcome of the touchdown.
When you reduce the rate of descent while maintaining the airspeed, you will start overshooting the aiming point and add possibly hundreds of feet to the landing distance.
Great video! Thanks for doing such a good job of clarifying the aiming points and touchdown points. For some reason I've had difficulty grasping them until now.
A full stall landing makes very short. I have experience landing at airport with 1789 ft. of runway with Pa -28r- 200, Tb 20. This is great benefit for new students. Great video!
Very good videos. Impressive and useful as a student pilot. I also like the quad views of the maneuver. Quad views allow us to see action and results. Might not work well for viewers using phones. Excellent for mini-iPad and larger. Thank you.
Hey, Trail Cam Finds! Thanks for the question!. Some people prefer to do it that way. We feel like it’s a personal preference. Our stance is either method creates close to the same result. With the flaps down we create more drag which helps us slow down faster. While with flaps up it puts more weight on wheels by reducing lift, which creates more friction between the wheels and the ground helping us slow down faster. Either way, we'll slow down about near the same. Hope this helps!
@@ThrustFlight I like to use flaps down on grass and flaps up on hard surface . Your braking isn't as effective on grass as it is on hard surface so with flaps down the drag helps on slowing it down on grass or dirt runways... JMO
Follow the POH. They differ. If it's on the POH checklist, the examiner will probably expect you to do it. Keep in mind, that for retractable gear models, there's the risk of mistakenly raising the gear so many pilots of those models would never take that risk.
Thanks for bringing this up. I retract flaps. I'm not an aeronautical engineer but i have been told that it reduces lift and transfers weight quicker from the wings. IE. Another form of aerodynamic braking.
Interesting discussion on speed to fly. That number is based on a given weight. An adjustment needs to be made to the airspeed for your situation. It may need to be found by performing actual stalls at different weights since only the max weight is provided for a 172. It is correct that this is normally based on 1.3Vso so that will help to make the adjustment for the weight. Usually the last page of section 5 of the POH for a Cessna has that information that was used in the determination of that speed. And just before it is the stall speed chart based on different CG and flap situations. There is also a number in the Performance Section up front for flaps down stall speed with power off at the beginning to help verify this. Notice it matches. In my model it is 46 - so 1.3X46=60. Notice that math is 1 knot less than 61. Your rounding works for the max weight situation. But with just two of you, it may be less than this.
@@christianh8636 Yes there are. But in reality stall speed is not a correct term. A wing steals at an AOA not a speed. An accelerated stall occurs at a higher speed than what is published. But it would be at the same AOA.
This question specifically applies to your crssna 172... As I know all airplanes are different. Your stabilized approach speed is 61KIAS w full flaps. WHAT IS YOUR TARGET VERTICAL DESCENT RATE? 500FPM? OR???
At my school, we always teach to touch down at the thousand footers. They don’t like touching on the numbers cause if you’re short you land in the grass lol
Good video. We didn't much cover the theoretical 50 ft. obstacle. Power / flight path approaching the obstacle is critical. Too high an approach could easily make the pilot want to lower the nose and gain excessive speed. Too flat of an approach, carrying too much power will result in a large power change crossing the obstacle with a required large pitch change to compensate for the power loss, bad idea. Because not enough pitch down would put the aircraft too slow to land safely and too much pitch change would result in nose too far down and an accellerated stall on round out. We don't like big changes that close to the runway. The perfect approach angle would be the power off, full flap, at book / 1.3Vso speed, but who is perfect? I found that if I was carrying about 1 to 300 hundred RPM above idle to control the descent angle over the obstacle then that small power reduction over the obstacle would require a very small pitch change to maintain desired airspeed. The other thing I always said to students was, "Pretend you are parking your father's Cadillac in a tight parking spot. What would you do if the approach into the spot looked crooked? You would back out and set up another approach. The plane is the same. In a real tight field situation, if the approach does not look perfect, there is no shame (or flunk) in a go-around. 25K hr ATP, 5K hr CFI&I
FAA: "landing on the designated point" FAA treats every Short Field Landing as a SPOT Landing, even though these things are not always the same thing, but related.
I recommend reviewing the FAA airplane flying handbook regarding a normal approach and landing and a short-field approach and landing. Note a normal approach and landing does have an aim point and touchdown point. The short-field approach and landing, however, does not have an aim point (or the aim point = the touchdown point). What you demonstrated was a normal approach and landing at a slower approach speed (65 KIAS v 61KIAS). The ACS also states there must be minimal float for a short-field landing. With Vs0 at 40 KIAS and having to dissipate approximately 20 kts. before touchdown, there would be no minimizing float.
I see no problem with how she taught the lesson, that is exactly how I learned how to do short field landings, and have never had a problem with DPEs or stage check instructors criticizing my process.
@@ZachShannon Again, I suggest a review of the aforementioned documents. The source documents are a good place to start so that you able to compare what you have read to the way you were taught.
I agree... I show my students a "real" short field, then teach them the way the school wants them to know it. At least they get a real reference for how one is done once.
@@ZachShannon There used to be an airport at Marlborough MA (9B1 in operation from 1922 to 2019) which had a 1600ft runway. Landing to the north you passed over some pretty tall trees. I flew there once on a $100 hamburger flight and we approached over the trees and landed fine. But we had to make a VERY precise approach incl flare with minimal float. Look at your POH and check the distance added when approaching over an obstacle - probably about 700ft. The total landing distance is about 1300ft. Margin for error - 300ft for this runway, and that's by flying precisely to the short-field technique in the POH. Approaching over trees, you can't even see the first several hundred feet of the runway, so your aiming point might be 500ft in, and your braking will be around 600ft with max braking. Total 1100ft with 500ft left over. But if you have a humongous float like is shown in this video, what's the risk of going off the end of that runway. We chatted with the owner after landing - over the years there were a number of aircraft which went into the fence at the north end of the runway. Google 'Small plane crashes through airport fence' - should get a single-engine Diamond which went through the fence out into the street at Marlborough MA (video covers the post-accident scene up close - sorry for no URL - they seem to get blocked). The approach and landing in this video is one way to land at the beginning of a runway. But when you have an obstacle which eliminates the first several hundred feet of the runway from being available, and the runway is extremely short, you will be at a high risk of something bad happening. If that's all you can do, your approach and landing skills are pretty limited. At Marlborough, they still had flight training there when we made our flight so they were very well versed in landing in the shortest distance. Minimizing the float is a critical part of it and that's exactly what is outlined in the FAA Handbook. I have no idea why any examiner would be satisfied with a long float as shown in this video.
You make it sound as though pitch and power together manage airspeed. Not possible. That doesn't leave any control for the line of flight. A 400 foot float? The ACS's require a minimal float. The FAA Airplane Flying Handbook says there should be little to no float.
Not one checklist was used and the flaps were not retracted immediately after touchdown (again, checklist and also the ACS standards). Just another example of why 99% of CFIs are trash. She did talk alot, but a DPE would fail you if you did what this video did (or more correctly, didn't ) do.
I really enjoyed this video it has me helped out a lot. The different camera angle's during each point within the traffic pattern along with the way you teach is impressive/helpful.
Thank you. About to pass my PPL check ride and short field landings have been my challenge.
Did you pass
Ayyy up for my CFI check ride
@@PylotGuyhe did
Very useful information for a sim flight thank you
Great video!! What about retracting flaps to help with brake efficiency?
I was taught this technique with a Cessna 150. It brings some risk with a retractable-gear aircraft, however. In the latter case, I would not risk confusing the gear handle with the flaps lever.
One interesting point here is everybody put emphasis on power and pitch for air speed. Nobody really teaches the proper amount of decent rate. Obviously if you were flying 60 kts and going to touchdown, but your sink rate is 600 ft./min. you’re going to hit pretty hard. Once you have crossed the runway threshold and have cleared all obstacles, you should maintain your desired air, speed and slow the aircraft decent rate to less than 400 ft./min. This way, when you begin to flare, it’s just a matter of a small reduction in power prior to contact with the runway surface. One other thing to remember is that if you have a change in wind, it will affect the outcome of the touchdown.
When you reduce the rate of descent while maintaining the airspeed, you will start overshooting the aiming point and add possibly hundreds of feet to the landing distance.
That’s right she missed that
Great video! Thanks for doing such a good job of clarifying the aiming points and touchdown points. For some reason I've had difficulty grasping them until now.
Great video, as usual. Getting back to flying after a long layoff, and will be working on CFI. Hope to be able to train with you folks.
Some great analogies Liz. Keep up the good work.
Some great advice and you brought up some good points, Liz.
What are your thoughts on retracting the FLAPS to zero on the landing rollout - after you touch down?
A full stall landing makes very short. I have experience landing at airport with 1789 ft. of runway with Pa -28r- 200, Tb 20. This is great benefit for new students. Great video!
Very good videos. Impressive and useful as a student pilot. I also like the quad views of the maneuver. Quad views allow us to see action and results. Might not work well for viewers using phones. Excellent for mini-iPad and larger. Thank you.
Thank you very much! If you found the content helpful consider subscribing! 😁
FAA doesn’t require flaps up while braking to put max weight-on-wheels to allow for actual max braking? Thanks again for all of your lessons!
You did a terrific job with this. 👏
Very helpful
Great video!!!
Excellent instruction!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great information!
thanks very helpful
Liz, that was very clear and helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
Great video!! Thank you!!
fantastic training and video production!! thank you, newly minted CFI with my first teaching gig :)
Best of luck!
Great video, my flight school teaches to bring up flaps upon touch down for maximum braking as well. Thoughts on this?
Hey, Trail Cam Finds! Thanks for the question!. Some people prefer to do it that way. We feel like it’s a personal preference. Our stance is either method creates close to the same result. With the flaps down we create more drag which helps us slow down faster. While with flaps up it puts more weight on wheels by reducing lift, which creates more friction between the wheels and the ground helping us slow down faster. Either way, we'll slow down about near the same.
Hope this helps!
Some airplanes call this out in the POH for this maneuver as well 😃.
@@ThrustFlight I like to use flaps down on grass and flaps up on hard surface . Your braking isn't as effective on grass as it is on hard surface so with flaps down the drag helps on slowing it down on grass or dirt runways... JMO
Follow the POH. They differ. If it's on the POH checklist, the examiner will probably expect you to do it. Keep in mind, that for retractable gear models, there's the risk of mistakenly raising the gear so many pilots of those models would never take that risk.
@@ThrustFlight doesn’t a clean wing have higher induced drag at low speeds?
Great lesson. Awesome work on the breakdown.
What about removing flaps once on the field ?
well done thank you, where is thrust flight academy hq'ed ?
Addison, TX
Excellent!
What speed do you teach for the archers. Final and short final? 1.3 vso?
What about retracting the flaps after touch down? It seems this is a controversial thing between CFIs.
Thanks for bringing this up. I retract flaps. I'm not an aeronautical engineer but i have been told that it reduces lift and transfers weight quicker from the wings. IE. Another form of aerodynamic braking.
Originally my instructor mad me do only short field landings. After testing I have been known to side slip once clearing obstacle.
What?
@HoldingShort side slip to love altitude quickly and to get position right. Clear a n obstacle an d touch down at end of runway
Interesting discussion on speed to fly. That number is based on a given weight. An adjustment needs to be made to the airspeed for your situation. It may need to be found by performing actual stalls at different weights since only the max weight is provided for a 172.
It is correct that this is normally based on 1.3Vso so that will help to make the adjustment for the weight. Usually the last page of section 5 of the POH for a Cessna has that information that was used in the determination of that speed. And just before it is the stall speed chart based on different CG and flap situations. There is also a number in the Performance Section up front for flaps down stall speed with power off at the beginning to help verify this. Notice it matches. In my model it is 46 - so 1.3X46=60. Notice that math is 1 knot less than 61. Your rounding works for the max weight situation.
But with just two of you, it may be less than this.
Well there’s different types of 172s, all with different stall speeds
@@christianh8636 Yes there are. But in reality stall speed is not a correct term. A wing steals at an AOA not a speed. An accelerated stall occurs at a higher speed than what is published. But it would be at the same AOA.
with regard to max breaking, Are you simulating max breaking or actually performing the max breaking?
Very thorough and great added comments, Liz. Great example for all budding female pilots out there. Keep up the excellence in role modeling!
This question specifically applies to your crssna 172... As I know all airplanes are different. Your stabilized approach speed is 61KIAS w full flaps. WHAT IS YOUR TARGET VERTICAL DESCENT RATE? 500FPM? OR???
Just look outside buddy
At my school, we always teach to touch down at the thousand footers. They don’t like touching on the numbers cause if you’re short you land in the grass lol
Do you ever trim?? In Germany short field landing are essential because most landing field ate short…
Good video. We didn't much cover the theoretical 50 ft. obstacle. Power / flight path approaching the obstacle is critical. Too high an approach could easily make the pilot want to lower the nose and gain excessive speed. Too flat of an approach, carrying too much power will result in a large power change crossing the obstacle with a required large pitch change to compensate for the power loss, bad idea. Because not enough pitch down would put the aircraft too slow to land safely and too much pitch change would result in nose too far down and an accellerated stall on round out. We don't like big changes that close to the runway. The perfect approach angle would be the power off, full flap, at book / 1.3Vso speed, but who is perfect? I found that if I was carrying about 1 to 300 hundred RPM above idle to control the descent angle over the obstacle then that small power reduction over the obstacle would require a very small pitch change to maintain desired airspeed. The other thing I always said to students was, "Pretend you are parking your father's Cadillac in a tight parking spot. What would you do if the approach into the spot looked crooked? You would back out and set up another approach. The plane is the same. In a real tight field situation, if the approach does not look perfect, there is no shame (or flunk) in a go-around.
25K hr ATP, 5K hr CFI&I
Forgot to put flaps up on touchdown
All cfis now are 21 year old experts
I may have skipped a bit, but it looks like she hasnt pulled full flaps, looks like about 30 deg.
Agreed. A lot of places are scared to death of full flaps. I see it every day
Can you be my cfi? Good teaching I'm learning how to fly
FAA: "landing on the designated point"
FAA treats every Short Field Landing as a SPOT Landing, even though these things are not always the same thing, but related.
I recommend reviewing the FAA airplane flying handbook regarding a normal approach and landing and a short-field approach and landing. Note a normal approach and landing does have an aim point and touchdown point. The short-field approach and landing, however, does not have an aim point (or the aim point = the touchdown point). What you demonstrated was a normal approach and landing at a slower approach speed (65 KIAS v 61KIAS). The ACS also states there must be minimal float for a short-field landing. With Vs0 at 40 KIAS and having to dissipate approximately 20 kts. before touchdown, there would be no minimizing float.
I see no problem with how she taught the lesson, that is exactly how I learned how to do short field landings, and have never had a problem with DPEs or stage check instructors criticizing my process.
@@ZachShannon Again, I suggest a review of the aforementioned documents. The source documents are a good place to start so that you able to compare what you have read to the way you were taught.
I agree... I show my students a "real" short field, then teach them the way the school wants them to know it. At least they get a real reference for how one is done once.
@@ZachShannon There used to be an airport at Marlborough MA (9B1 in operation from 1922 to 2019) which had a 1600ft runway. Landing to the north you passed over some pretty tall trees. I flew there once on a $100 hamburger flight and we approached over the trees and landed fine. But we had to make a VERY precise approach incl flare with minimal float.
Look at your POH and check the distance added when approaching over an obstacle - probably about 700ft. The total landing distance is about 1300ft. Margin for error - 300ft for this runway, and that's by flying precisely to the short-field technique in the POH. Approaching over trees, you can't even see the first several hundred feet of the runway, so your aiming point might be 500ft in, and your braking will be around 600ft with max braking. Total 1100ft with 500ft left over. But if you have a humongous float like is shown in this video, what's the risk of going off the end of that runway. We chatted with the owner after landing - over the years there were a number of aircraft which went into the fence at the north end of the runway. Google 'Small plane crashes through airport fence' - should get a single-engine Diamond which went through the fence out into the street at Marlborough MA (video covers the post-accident scene up close - sorry for no URL - they seem to get blocked).
The approach and landing in this video is one way to land at the beginning of a runway. But when you have an obstacle which eliminates the first several hundred feet of the runway from being available, and the runway is extremely short, you will be at a high risk of something bad happening. If that's all you can do, your approach and landing skills are pretty limited. At Marlborough, they still had flight training there when we made our flight so they were very well versed in landing in the shortest distance. Minimizing the float is a critical part of it and that's exactly what is outlined in the FAA Handbook. I have no idea why any examiner would be satisfied with a long float as shown in this video.
I confused about this exact topic, thanks for the clarification.
must be weird that male students constantly trying to hit on you, i mean if i was your student i’d definitely try
Not a flare but a transition…
You make it sound as though pitch and power together manage airspeed. Not possible. That doesn't leave any control for the line of flight.
A 400 foot float? The ACS's require a minimal float. The FAA Airplane Flying Handbook says there should be little to no float.
Not one checklist was used and the flaps were not retracted immediately after touchdown (again, checklist and also the ACS standards). Just another example of why 99% of CFIs are trash. She did talk alot, but a DPE would fail you if you did what this video did (or more correctly, didn't ) do.
Theres a FAA document regarding flaps up or down to stop most efficiently. Flaps down is perfectly fine
To much talking. Show the landing.
Do you really need your ear plugs during the video recording ?