Well, the manufacturing stopped not for cost reasons, but rather, ergonomic requirements. However, the model f was replaced by the model m for cost reasons. Beam spring keyboards are unhealthy to use and will cause you severe wrist related issues, lets be real here. I mean, unless you modified your desk or used a ridiculously thick wrist pad.
+Richard Smith That's one of the reasons, but I'm sure cost had at least something to do with it. Buckling springs were made to be two parts as opposed to the large number of connected parts in the beamsprings, which I would assume greatly decreased the price.
I got one of these switches to try out based on the strength of Thomas' review. One press was all it took to realize the awesomeness described here is all true. The switch is smooth and tactile and clicky in a way that is absolutely delightful. Oh, how nice it would be to have a keyboard made with these.
Well, since the Model M patent got taken over by Unicomp and the Model F patent recently liberated, I hope it's only a matter of time til we see modern reproductions of that switch. Says the guy who just got so desperate to spend $40 on a single beamspring-keychain ;)
Hi there Chyrosan, I recently found myself in possession of a IBM Beamspring 3278, and I was wondering if you could help me a bit with how to actually disassemble the switches. Thanks so much!
After 2 too long, frustrating days of researching these cherry things and the mx cloniverse, i can come back and rest easy knowing that the beamspring is a darn good switch that I can see myself enjoying.
Thank you I had wondered how they worked. Didn't expect such a simple design! Also interesting that the two interlocking metal sheet spring parts would never become un-interlocked during use, it looks like they're not really stuck together hard
You know, I find it surprising that nobody ever took another crack at a switch like this. A lot of the height of the thing seems to be in the sliding post and the support, both of which I would thing wouldn't be too hard to shorten without compromising the structural integrity of the overall design. The height mostly seems to be there just because the industry standard at the time was to have much taller keyboards with deeper key strokes to emulate typewriters, since that was what everyone was used to. The return spring seems like it could be either shortened or use a different placement entirely to make the whole switch more compact, or it could even use a completely different type of spring for the return. Even the capacitive sensors seem like they could be replaced with more basic electrical contacts. I know that there are benefits to capacitive keyboards, but for reasons I admittedly don't fully understand this seems to greatly increase production costs. Although, I should point out that the guy who did the reproduction Model F keyboards seems to have been able to get them made for a lot cheaper than they were able to back in the day despite the fact that he is doing this without the _enormous_ cost-saving benefit of large scale production. I can only assume that that guy has some serious dirt on some major manufacturers, because I don't have a _clue_ how he was able to get those things made so cheaply. But it does mean that capacitive keyboard tech or the manufacturing processes behind it, which was so outlandishly expensive in the 80's that IBM even had to figure out something cheaper, might be a lot more commercially viable today than it was 40 years ago. And, yes, ~$350 for an extremely niche, limited-run keyboard that's been reverse engineered from scratch, has a solid cast zinc case, and uses a bunch of components that are very non-standard without sacrificing a single drop in quality (except maybe the software) is absolute voodoo witchcraft for anyone who understands manufacturing, especially when you consider that it's somewhere between a _third_ and a _fifth_ the price that IBM was able to offer them for in their heyday (when adjusted for inflation). I can only assume that he didn't really factor in his (and the community behind him, this was not a one man operation) own time spent on engineering and everything else he had to do to make this happen into the pricing, and that he must be practically selling these things at cost. That, and that these manufacturing processes must have really fallen in price. I'm sure that the proliferation of CNC has had a great deal to due with falling production costs, as making the molding for all these things must be much simpler when you can just throw a CAD file at a hunk of steel and watch parts happen, but even then it's not _really_ that simple. Oh, also that he has had a lot of this production done through the middle of a global economic crisis is also madness. My point is, a community effort can bring back capacitive buckling spring technology while also adhering to quality standards that are absolutely _absurdly over the top_ by today's standards, so I have to wonder whether or not these key switches that constantly get regarded as "too expensive to be commercially viable" really _are_ that unviable anymore. Unicomp has shown us that the basic buckling spring certainly isn't, seeing as how they're still selling them for only $100. But even they are making them using somewhat out-of-date manufacturing techniques and to fairly robust quality (compared to many modern boards). And Ellipse (the model F guy) has shown that these capacitive contact pads are not impossible to have made, either. So it seems like somewhere in between these two might be the happy medium between a modern keyboard with a full layout that doesn't absolutely wreck the bank, right? It might also mean that a switch like these beam springs might not be impossible, either, if only they were re-designed with a lower height in mind. Even in the video, he noted that there really isn't anything over-the-top about these switches that you would think would make them impossibly difficult to manufacture.
Model F Labs is now selling beam spring keyboards too, and individual beam spring modules. He's redesigned them to have an MX-compatible cross-stem, unlike the Model F switches where the keycap and cylindrical housing for the buckling spring are all one contiguous piece of plastic. He's selling the modules for $4 apiece, which is pretty comparable in price to the buckling springs ($1 for flipper, $1 for barrel, 67¢ per key ($69 for a printed 103-key set). The PCB itself will be the same cost. Obviously you need to buy keycaps for the beam spring modules, but MX-compatible keysets can be far cheaper due to economy of scale (and/or less commitment to quality control) But beam spring switches are more susceptible to crud. Even though both switches are serviceable (as are Model Ms, if you clean or replace the whole membrane sheet), the Model F Labs guy says you should stick with buckling springs if you hate the idea of regular servicing, or need the keyboard to have maximum uptime. Considering IBM's clients at the time -- banks etc, it's not surprising they switched to buckling springs for better reliability, not just cost.
Love the teardown, but was really hoping to see you doing a review of the kailh thick clicks this week. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about them
Didn't he do a teardown of futaba clickies awhile ago? Really hope he grabbed some kailh thick clicks when they were in stock, or at least had some sent to him by kailh themselves like with their box whites. I have my box navies and they are amazing to type on.
yeah he did a teardown, but now hes reviewing a board with them. and yeah i have navy's on the way and a new hot swappable keyboard coming in along with keycaps. hope theyre as good as everyone says.
I have this same switch!!!! But with the Number 1 keycap! This is BY FAR THEE BEST FUCKING SWITCH AND KEYCAPS EVER FUCKING MADE!!! Man I wish I could find a full keyboard in very good shape with these switches and caps! Great job on the tear down video brother! One thing, you didnt show nor explain on how to actually tear it down. Anywho, hope to hear from you soon my friend!
Man, if bringing back the F costs a small fortune, can you imagine how incredibly expensive bringing back the beamsprings would be?! You couldn't even ask Unicomp to provide the keycaps xD .
One thing I didn't quite understand: What reverses the inversion of the beam spring when the key comes back up? With just the loose slider/beamspring/plate you showed it seems like it would get stuck that way and stay there...
There are stationary plastic pillars in the switch housing that prevent the fly plate from inverting fully, and when the switch is released, they push the plate down again.
If you're looking for an in-production, affordable switch that's similar to Blue Alps, the closest would be the Matias Click switch. If you insist upon Cherry MX keycap compatibility, the closest in-production switch is probably going to be the i-Rocks switch, which you'd likely need an Alps-compatible PCB to build with (which are a great deal easier to find than good Alps-compatible keycaps). The only fully Cherry-compatible switch ever made that's likely to approach similarity to Alps that I've heard of is the ProWorld Cherry MX Clone switch, which is extremely rare. If you merely want Cherry MX compatibility and a large quantity of tactility and clickiness, the Kailh Box Jade/Navy blow Gatistotles to kingdom come. Kailh Box Jades are *absurdly* tactile and highly clicky. They are also far, far cheaper, and are likely to have a much longer lifetime, as they are brand new, and do not require opening switches and swapping parts to make. It's also been my personal observation that the Aristotle stems are somewhat more fragile than other stems. The batch I ordered from 1Up Keyboards was inconsistent, as well.
A lower profile version of this would be Alps Plate Spring (found on boards like that of the IBM P70). While they don't really feel much like beam springs, both are based on a plate spring design, so they're... sort of comparable.
True. Seeing as how they couldn't get the model M quite right, their remake of a beamspring board would probably be pretty far off from the real thing.
Can anyone tell me how I would go about asking a local recycling center to savage some of their keyboards? Should I just ask if I could come in on the phone orrrrr..... lol
Clever stuff. Easy to see why it was too pricey to keep manufacturing once buckling springs were developed. Great video! 👍
I see that you're a man of culture.
Well, the manufacturing stopped not for cost reasons, but rather, ergonomic requirements. However, the model f was replaced by the model m for cost reasons.
Beam spring keyboards are unhealthy to use and will cause you severe wrist related issues, lets be real here. I mean, unless you modified your desk or used a ridiculously thick wrist pad.
+Richard Smith That's one of the reasons, but I'm sure cost had at least something to do with it. Buckling springs were made to be two parts as opposed to the large number of connected parts in the beamsprings, which I would assume greatly decreased the price.
Hi quinn
Snazzy Labs Hi Snazzy Labs!
I didn't believe it could actually be that good until I saw the force curve.
I got one of these switches to try out based on the strength of Thomas' review. One press was all it took to realize the awesomeness described here is all true. The switch is smooth and tactile and clicky in a way that is absolutely delightful. Oh, how nice it would be to have a keyboard made with these.
Amen, brother ^^ .
Well, since the Model M patent got taken over by Unicomp and the Model F patent recently liberated, I hope it's only a matter of time til we see modern reproductions of that switch. Says the guy who just got so desperate to spend $40 on a single beamspring-keychain ;)
Watching you demonstrate that loose fly spring was really satisfying for some reason
Spoiler alert :) , at the end, there's no typing demonstration of Tom typing on this keyboard ;)
And following is a typing demonstration of me typing on this keyboard.
ZanderLexx there never is with my Teardown videos xD .
And following is a typing demonstration of me typing on this isolated keyswitch.
Renewable Oilcan Rim Click, Click, clickety click click click
Hi there Chyrosan,
I recently found myself in possession of a IBM Beamspring 3278, and I was wondering if you could help me a bit with how to actually disassemble the switches. Thanks so much!
Awesome demonstration. I finally completely understand how these work.
After 2 too long, frustrating days of researching these cherry things and the mx cloniverse, i can come back and rest easy knowing that the beamspring is a darn good switch that I can see myself enjoying.
If Kim Jong-un watched Chyrosran22 video, I think he'd be a very changed person and it would change his entire worldview.
plot twist: Kim is huge retro mechanical keyboards enthusiast cos everything in his country is cold war era
Kim Jong Un should send him a North Korean keyboard. It would be very interesting to see what they are like.
Thank you I had wondered how they worked. Didn't expect such a simple design! Also interesting that the two interlocking metal sheet spring parts would never become un-interlocked during use, it looks like they're not really stuck together hard
0M9H4X they're not, they're just loosely threaded through each other. The lack of space inside tge housing prevents disengagement.
Also, the beam spring is constantly under tension as it is bent when assembled. This prevents the fly plate from falling off it.
I love this channel
You know, I find it surprising that nobody ever took another crack at a switch like this. A lot of the height of the thing seems to be in the sliding post and the support, both of which I would thing wouldn't be too hard to shorten without compromising the structural integrity of the overall design. The height mostly seems to be there just because the industry standard at the time was to have much taller keyboards with deeper key strokes to emulate typewriters, since that was what everyone was used to. The return spring seems like it could be either shortened or use a different placement entirely to make the whole switch more compact, or it could even use a completely different type of spring for the return.
Even the capacitive sensors seem like they could be replaced with more basic electrical contacts. I know that there are benefits to capacitive keyboards, but for reasons I admittedly don't fully understand this seems to greatly increase production costs. Although, I should point out that the guy who did the reproduction Model F keyboards seems to have been able to get them made for a lot cheaper than they were able to back in the day despite the fact that he is doing this without the _enormous_ cost-saving benefit of large scale production. I can only assume that that guy has some serious dirt on some major manufacturers, because I don't have a _clue_ how he was able to get those things made so cheaply. But it does mean that capacitive keyboard tech or the manufacturing processes behind it, which was so outlandishly expensive in the 80's that IBM even had to figure out something cheaper, might be a lot more commercially viable today than it was 40 years ago.
And, yes, ~$350 for an extremely niche, limited-run keyboard that's been reverse engineered from scratch, has a solid cast zinc case, and uses a bunch of components that are very non-standard without sacrificing a single drop in quality (except maybe the software) is absolute voodoo witchcraft for anyone who understands manufacturing, especially when you consider that it's somewhere between a _third_ and a _fifth_ the price that IBM was able to offer them for in their heyday (when adjusted for inflation). I can only assume that he didn't really factor in his (and the community behind him, this was not a one man operation) own time spent on engineering and everything else he had to do to make this happen into the pricing, and that he must be practically selling these things at cost. That, and that these manufacturing processes must have really fallen in price. I'm sure that the proliferation of CNC has had a great deal to due with falling production costs, as making the molding for all these things must be much simpler when you can just throw a CAD file at a hunk of steel and watch parts happen, but even then it's not _really_ that simple.
Oh, also that he has had a lot of this production done through the middle of a global economic crisis is also madness.
My point is, a community effort can bring back capacitive buckling spring technology while also adhering to quality standards that are absolutely _absurdly over the top_ by today's standards, so I have to wonder whether or not these key switches that constantly get regarded as "too expensive to be commercially viable" really _are_ that unviable anymore. Unicomp has shown us that the basic buckling spring certainly isn't, seeing as how they're still selling them for only $100. But even they are making them using somewhat out-of-date manufacturing techniques and to fairly robust quality (compared to many modern boards). And Ellipse (the model F guy) has shown that these capacitive contact pads are not impossible to have made, either. So it seems like somewhere in between these two might be the happy medium between a modern keyboard with a full layout that doesn't absolutely wreck the bank, right? It might also mean that a switch like these beam springs might not be impossible, either, if only they were re-designed with a lower height in mind. Even in the video, he noted that there really isn't anything over-the-top about these switches that you would think would make them impossibly difficult to manufacture.
Model F Labs is now selling beam spring keyboards too, and individual beam spring modules. He's redesigned them to have an MX-compatible cross-stem, unlike the Model F switches where the keycap and cylindrical housing for the buckling spring are all one contiguous piece of plastic.
He's selling the modules for $4 apiece, which is pretty comparable in price to the buckling springs ($1 for flipper, $1 for barrel, 67¢ per key ($69 for a printed 103-key set). The PCB itself will be the same cost. Obviously you need to buy keycaps for the beam spring modules, but MX-compatible keysets can be far cheaper due to economy of scale (and/or less commitment to quality control)
But beam spring switches are more susceptible to crud. Even though both switches are serviceable (as are Model Ms, if you clean or replace the whole membrane sheet), the Model F Labs guy says you should stick with buckling springs if you hate the idea of regular servicing, or need the keyboard to have maximum uptime.
Considering IBM's clients at the time -- banks etc, it's not surprising they switched to buckling springs for better reliability, not just cost.
MY BOY HITTING ME UP WITH ANOTHER KEYBOARD FIX
This looks very simple to replicate. Can we have a kickstarter on this? With that sexy force curve as a reference point?
I am thinking the same here. Maybe this can even be fitted in a standard MX housing..
@@peegee101 The Silo Beam switch is going to be based on Beamspring switches, but I never hear anyone talk about it.
Love the teardown, but was really hoping to see you doing a review of the kailh thick clicks this week. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about them
I don't think he really has some himself. Someone might have to proxy a board with them to him for review just like what Danilo did with his planck.
theyre back in stock so he's probably going to review them soon enough, though i think his next video will be on futaba clicky switches
Didn't he do a teardown of futaba clickies awhile ago? Really hope he grabbed some kailh thick clicks when they were in stock, or at least had some sent to him by kailh themselves like with their box whites. I have my box navies and they are amazing to type on.
yeah he did a teardown, but now hes reviewing a board with them. and yeah i have navy's on the way and a new hot swappable keyboard coming in along with keycaps. hope theyre as good as everyone says.
Patience, young padawan. Good things come to those who wait ;) .
Key switches should be modular so that you can kit out with retro switches like this somehow.
Someone needs to make a modern version
if only
kono.store/blogs/keyboards/silo-beam modern re-incarnations currently in the making. In the meanwhile I got my own 3278 :)
@@1337Shockwav3 damn
I have this same switch!!!! But with the Number 1 keycap! This is BY FAR THEE BEST FUCKING SWITCH AND KEYCAPS EVER FUCKING MADE!!! Man I wish I could find a full keyboard in very good shape with these switches and caps! Great job on the tear down video brother! One thing, you didnt show nor explain on how to actually tear it down. Anywho, hope to hear from you soon my friend!
I really appreciate all of this very interesting and useful data And information
Does the plastic rivets on the plate spring and slider break of similar to the model m rivets
Great video, thanks!
Just one more thing....more, more, more, more, more Keyboards videos :)
Have a great evening/day/etc.!
Are there specs for the compression spring anywhere online?
Never mind bringing back the model f, someone should make a modern layout beamspring keyboard
Man, if bringing back the F costs a small fortune, can you imagine how incredibly expensive bringing back the beamsprings would be?! You couldn't even ask Unicomp to provide the keycaps xD .
@@Chyrosran22 Maybe Signature Plastics... probably not :(
What does it sound like with the o-ring removed?
Josephi Krakowski basically the same.
Is the actuatation force 45G ???
One thing I didn't quite understand: What reverses the inversion of the beam spring when the key comes back up? With just the loose slider/beamspring/plate you showed it seems like it would get stuck that way and stay there...
The spring should return the slider back up.
There are stationary plastic pillars in the switch housing that prevent the fly plate from inverting fully, and when the switch is released, they push the plate down again.
Is it possible to make a Hall effect beam spring?
Hey mate! Please someone answer this, but how was the switch mounted to the keyboard! Can't find any good sauce for this :(
It uses a barrel plate through which the switches protrude. The switches are their own barrels.
What's closer to blue alps, gatistotles or the new Kalihs?
Neither. They're completely different, it's like asking whether steak or lettuce is the closest to plastic :p .
If you're looking for an in-production, affordable switch that's similar to Blue Alps, the closest would be the Matias Click switch. If you insist upon Cherry MX keycap compatibility, the closest in-production switch is probably going to be the i-Rocks switch, which you'd likely need an Alps-compatible PCB to build with (which are a great deal easier to find than good Alps-compatible keycaps). The only fully Cherry-compatible switch ever made that's likely to approach similarity to Alps that I've heard of is the ProWorld Cherry MX Clone switch, which is extremely rare.
If you merely want Cherry MX compatibility and a large quantity of tactility and clickiness, the Kailh Box Jade/Navy blow Gatistotles to kingdom come. Kailh Box Jades are *absurdly* tactile and highly clicky. They are also far, far cheaper, and are likely to have a much longer lifetime, as they are brand new, and do not require opening switches and swapping parts to make. It's also been my personal observation that the Aristotle stems are somewhat more fragile than other stems. The batch I ordered from 1Up Keyboards was inconsistent, as well.
Lovely, thank you.
Well, now I want one.
OH MY GOD YES
So... DIN height norm made this discontinued. It's so shame. I hope somebody would remake this design again.
A lower profile version of this would be Alps Plate Spring (found on boards like that of the IBM P70). While they don't really feel much like beam springs, both are based on a plate spring design, so they're... sort of comparable.
so is it just a fancy membrane board??
your move Unicomp....
Unicomp wouldn't have anymore ease making these than any random company would. They would require completely new EVERYTHING to do them xD .
True. Seeing as how they couldn't get the model M quite right, their remake of a beamspring board would probably be pretty far off from the real thing.
I purchased one fairly recently and felt it was pretty lackluster.
yeah i was agreeing with you if you couldn't tell.
Can anyone tell me how I would go about asking a local recycling center to savage some of their keyboards? Should I just ask if I could come in on the phone orrrrr..... lol
I wonder if we could see these made again, maybe with a different keycap attachment to use more available/modern keycaps. I would buy that board.
Not if you saw the bill, probably xD .
Hi, HUGE Apple hater coming through.
What is this switch's life span? 500k?
Allen Bao 100 million cycles per switch.
FIRST
knowyourmeme.com/memes/first
Capta Praelium LOL