Sounds like excellent advice. Does your stability improve with practice? or is it the case that some people will never be able to paddle a very narrow ski?
Absolutely your stability will improve. To help it along you can challenge yourself by hopping in a less stable boat every now and then or paddling in rough conditions.
Most important advice regarding surfskis.. never ever ever sacrifice stability over speed. A boat you can't balance is a boat you will not enjoy paddling.
hot damn, this is what i needed. bought a cheap surf ski thinking I'd be sweet and can barely stay in the thing. Of to find a wider more stable one so I can actually have some fun. Thanks dudes
Hi guys, thanks for the great video. I'm a small framed paddler. I started off with a V7 and upgraded to V10 sport and I think it was too big a jump for me. It's okay in the flat water, but feel very tippy and big on the rough water. Considering a V8 Pro or V9 and I want to know if a lighter layup would handle easier for a small framed paddler? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I'm 5' 6" and also started out with a V7. I upgraded to a V8 Pro with it first came out and felt very stable in it. Just demo a V9 last week and it feels just as stable as the V8 pro. Paddle both a V8 Pro or the V9 before you buy.
V8 Pro and V9 aren't that much more stable than the Sport inherently but I find the V9 much more comfortable due to the smaller bucket - I'm much more connected to the boat. The V7 / V8 is much more stable than a V8 Pro. V8 Pro, V9 and V10 Sport are all relatively similar to me in terms of stability then there's a big jump to the V10. Have you tried padding the sides of the bucket to make it more snug?
At the end of the video (2:35) there is a caption: "never sacrifice speed for stability", which is obviously the opposite of what the video makers meant!
My first surfski taught me that surfski isn't for me. Kayaks are cool because you can sacrifice a tiny little bit of stability for a lot more speed and that is what people do when they upgrade to a higher end boat from their WIlderness or Old Town boats. The surfskis are exponentially more unstable. I felt like there was no way I could balance my ski even in flat water. I was attracted to the lighter weight and potential for more performance but in 16 years of paddling I never fell in, not even once. With the ski that was all I was capable of doing, I couldn't even make a couple strokes without going over. I tried a couple times and turned right around and sold it. Rescue, remount and getting wet is not for me I didn't get into kayaking as you don't need to buy a boat to go swimming and the water where I live is COLD. Even with wet/dry suits which I own I don't fancy the idea of going in. I exercise like crazy, am extremely fit and do a lot of sports but at 6'4" I am not the steadiest, most coordinated person out there. Maybe surfski works for short people who are former gymnists that live on the gulf coast in warm waters like Fla, SC and that stuff. There's no shame in appreciating initial stability. I only want to post this not to piss on the surfski parade but rather if you are a kayaker you should think thrice before going to skis it's not anywhere equivalent. You have to be ready to give up 99.9% of your stability and if you don't fancy or are used to going in the drink on a regular basis you're in for a rude awakening!
Hi Mike, sorry that you had a bad experience on a surfski. Perhaps you weren't on a really stable one? The most stable surfskis are around the same width as some sea kayaks but with way more performance in rough conditions.
@@DawidMocke IT wasa Nelo 600 supposedly one of the most stable. I could not imagine getting much performance out of one in rough conditions because on flat water I could barely breathe without tipping the thing over. Tall and stiff is a bad combination. I am not necessarily condemned to SOT's but I think more recreational like kayaks with their generous levels of stability reserve are my cup of tea. I disagree that tippy boats handle better in rough seas as my experience has been quite the opposite. Stable boats are stable. Tippy boats only get worse in wind and waves.
The stroke and technique for generating stability is vastly different between sea kayaking and surf skis. You need to relearn everything - people coming from sea kayaks (myself included) often assume they'll be competent in a surf ski but the skill set isn't really transferable. In a surf ski you need to use your heels, paddle and your arse to generate stability whereas in a kayak you can brace with your knees. In the surf ski, you also need to learn to rotate your body and drive with your legs much more and the spike / catch is much further forward and more aggressive. I can understand why you wouldn't want to put the time in to transition as it took me around 3 months myself. But try something like a Epic V8 (which has a sea kayak hull) if you're ever curious again. As for the reasons in doing so? Surf skis are the fastest craft in the ocean and can really exploit downwind conditions much more than any kayak. They can slice through waves rather than roll over them and crash back down. At 6'4 you should probably be a bit more stable than a lighter paddler - many surf skis (particularly those made by Epic) are pretty high volume craft and a more of the boat will be in the water the heavier you are. I've fallen in only once but was very careful about where I went initially. I think it takes at least 3 months to appreciate what the surf ski offers and 1 year to feel fully comfortable in all conditions.
@@mrebear9758 Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The last few years that I got into very high fitness also weight training 4x a week, doing group rides on the bike stretching and above all else getting my glutes strong I have started to rotate using leg drive and yes, the glutes. But I find this is not practical when on a tippy boat. It's much more stable to just pull with your arms and paddle less hard. Easy does it in tippy boats which is why I prefer more stable ones that don't heel over and flip with the slightest (or no!) provocation. What I don't like about surfski is that the slightest movement on my part, even breathing, turning your head to take in the scenery, never mind the movements needed to paddle the boat, will heel the boat over significantly. You can't stop paddling, not even to take a photo, respond to a call or text, admire the views, because it takes minimal provocation to flip the boat, as little as just stopping it and a wave hitting you. I think part of the problem is the sit on top design too. I changed a seat on my S12 to something thicker and more comfortable and boy did it make the boat noticeably more tippy just being 1/2 inch to 1 inch higher. Wow, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to take a perfectly good kayak hull and go up into the stratosphere if 1/2 inch makes you that much more tippy! I paddle a Stellar S14 G2. From Strava I see that on a lowly S14 G2 which isn't even that long I can go 6mph or more in the straightaways and average 4.8-5.2mph on a pond with a lot of twists and turns that require slowing down. That is not that much slower than some mid level surfskis I see people paddling on Strava. But a fast(ish) higher end rec kayak is much more practical, useable and user friendly boat. The biggest speed advantage is indeed downwind which is lost on me because when wind and wave show up I will *NOT* be out on the water. My limit is 5-8mph on the ocean, maybe slightly more inland but I don't want to flip and get swept away so I find something else like riding a bike, taking a run, manual labor or the weight room in my basement. The sport seems to attract 100%ers, those that are willing to do everything it takes to be at the very top. I am more of an 80/20'er, looking to get 80% for the first 20% of effort. While my fitness maxes out the S14 G2, I honestly don't see myself dealing with anything more tippy or any bigger conditions than the little ones I like to go out in. I feel like I have plateaued but I am OK with that because cycling is my main thing and I appreciate the upper body cross training and ability to do something different.
When you can paddle in 15-20 knots of wind, sidechop, in your current surfski and not be worried at all, then your balance is good. Or, if you paddle a lot in flat water and have the luxury to have two boats then have two.
Why no sacrifice a bit of training to make you feel stable in any surfski? This would prevent you from buying more than one ski plus you train balance which is a value in itself. You would also not tell a child not to ride a bike because it's unstable.
Hi Philipp, this is obviously a subjective issue and a difficult one to cover with a blanket solution. Some paddlers truly are in a grey zone and with a bit of focused application will be able to learn on a less stable ski. The lesson in this video is mostly aimed at new paddlers getting into the sport. Less stability equals less optimal paddling which means slower progression, generally. So it is always better to gain confidence and learn effective technique on a more stable platform. Is there a way to "hack" this? Yes indeed there is. If you are persistent enough you can certainly nail it in a quicker than normal time, especially if you are ware that more stable options exist should you not get it right in the less stable boat. About the bike analogy, all skis are unstable, some just more stable than others, and the same goes for bikes. So I wouldn't tell a child to jump on an advanced TT bike to learn, No, but I'm sure they would eventually get it right, hopefully before losing motivation.
Thank you guys so much
You guys are so correct. Exactly the same applies to K1s and K2s. Way too many people out there paddling kayaks above their stability level.
Yeah but its fun as being tippy i accept the tippy and use my paddle skills to keep me atop worked so far
Sounds like excellent advice. Does your stability improve with practice? or is it the case that some people will never be able to paddle a very narrow ski?
Absolutely your stability will improve. To help it along you can challenge yourself by hopping in a less stable boat every now and then or paddling in rough conditions.
Most important advice regarding surfskis.. never ever ever sacrifice stability over speed. A boat you can't balance is a boat you will not enjoy paddling.
Very true!
hot damn, this is what i needed. bought a cheap surf ski thinking I'd be sweet and can barely stay in the thing. Of to find a wider more stable one so I can actually have some fun. Thanks dudes
How'd it go with a wider boat?
Hi guys, thanks for the great video. I'm a small framed paddler. I started off with a V7 and upgraded to V10 sport and I think it was too big a jump for me. It's okay in the flat water, but feel very tippy and big on the rough water. Considering a V8 Pro or V9 and I want to know if a lighter layup would handle easier for a small framed paddler? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I'm 5' 6" and also started out with a V7. I upgraded to a V8 Pro with it first came out and felt very stable in it. Just demo a V9 last week and it feels just as stable as the V8 pro. Paddle both a V8 Pro or the V9 before you buy.
V8 Pro and V9 aren't that much more stable than the Sport inherently but I find the V9 much more comfortable due to the smaller bucket - I'm much more connected to the boat. The V7 / V8 is much more stable than a V8 Pro. V8 Pro, V9 and V10 Sport are all relatively similar to me in terms of stability then there's a big jump to the V10. Have you tried padding the sides of the bucket to make it more snug?
jip, that is exactly what I was thinking...:)
Thanks Luke!
What is a good starter surfski? Plenty of time on an outrigger but zero on a ski. Thoughts?
Look no further than a Fenn Bluefin S
At the end of the video (2:35) there is a caption: "never sacrifice speed for stability", which is obviously the opposite of what the video makers meant!
Wow. Just goes to show how things can be overlooked... Thank you for picking it up and for pointing that out
can you add an outrigger to a surfski?
There have been some experimental designs but in short No, no outriggers for surfski
My first surfski taught me that surfski isn't for me. Kayaks are cool because you can sacrifice a tiny little bit of stability for a lot more speed and that is what people do when they upgrade to a higher end boat from their WIlderness or Old Town boats. The surfskis are exponentially more unstable. I felt like there was no way I could balance my ski even in flat water. I was attracted to the lighter weight and potential for more performance but in 16 years of paddling I never fell in, not even once. With the ski that was all I was capable of doing, I couldn't even make a couple strokes without going over. I tried a couple times and turned right around and sold it. Rescue, remount and getting wet is not for me I didn't get into kayaking as you don't need to buy a boat to go swimming and the water where I live is COLD. Even with wet/dry suits which I own I don't fancy the idea of going in. I exercise like crazy, am extremely fit and do a lot of sports but at 6'4" I am not the steadiest, most coordinated person out there. Maybe surfski works for short people who are former gymnists that live on the gulf coast in warm waters like Fla, SC and that stuff. There's no shame in appreciating initial stability. I only want to post this not to piss on the surfski parade but rather if you are a kayaker you should think thrice before going to skis it's not anywhere equivalent. You have to be ready to give up 99.9% of your stability and if you don't fancy or are used to going in the drink on a regular basis you're in for a rude awakening!
Hi Mike, sorry that you had a bad experience on a surfski. Perhaps you weren't on a really stable one? The most stable surfskis are around the same width as some sea kayaks but with way more performance in rough conditions.
@@DawidMocke IT wasa Nelo 600 supposedly one of the most stable. I could not imagine getting much performance out of one in rough conditions because on flat water I could barely breathe without tipping the thing over. Tall and stiff is a bad combination. I am not necessarily condemned to SOT's but I think more recreational like kayaks with their generous levels of stability reserve are my cup of tea. I disagree that tippy boats handle better in rough seas as my experience has been quite the opposite. Stable boats are stable. Tippy boats only get worse in wind and waves.
The stroke and technique for generating stability is vastly different between sea kayaking and surf skis. You need to relearn everything - people coming from sea kayaks (myself included) often assume they'll be competent in a surf ski but the skill set isn't really transferable. In a surf ski you need to use your heels, paddle and your arse to generate stability whereas in a kayak you can brace with your knees. In the surf ski, you also need to learn to rotate your body and drive with your legs much more and the spike / catch is much further forward and more aggressive. I can understand why you wouldn't want to put the time in to transition as it took me around 3 months myself. But try something like a Epic V8 (which has a sea kayak hull) if you're ever curious again. As for the reasons in doing so? Surf skis are the fastest craft in the ocean and can really exploit downwind conditions much more than any kayak. They can slice through waves rather than roll over them and crash back down. At 6'4 you should probably be a bit more stable than a lighter paddler - many surf skis (particularly those made by Epic) are pretty high volume craft and a more of the boat will be in the water the heavier you are. I've fallen in only once but was very careful about where I went initially. I think it takes at least 3 months to appreciate what the surf ski offers and 1 year to feel fully comfortable in all conditions.
@@mrebear9758 Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The last few years that I got into very high fitness also weight training 4x a week, doing group rides on the bike stretching and above all else getting my glutes strong I have started to rotate using leg drive and yes, the glutes. But I find this is not practical when on a tippy boat. It's much more stable to just pull with your arms and paddle less hard. Easy does it in tippy boats which is why I prefer more stable ones that don't heel over and flip with the slightest (or no!) provocation.
What I don't like about surfski is that the slightest movement on my part, even breathing, turning your head to take in the scenery, never mind the movements needed to paddle the boat, will heel the boat over significantly. You can't stop paddling, not even to take a photo, respond to a call or text, admire the views, because it takes minimal provocation to flip the boat, as little as just stopping it and a wave hitting you. I think part of the problem is the sit on top design too. I changed a seat on my S12 to something thicker and more comfortable and boy did it make the boat noticeably more tippy just being 1/2 inch to 1 inch higher. Wow, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to take a perfectly good kayak hull and go up into the stratosphere if 1/2 inch makes you that much more tippy!
I paddle a Stellar S14 G2. From Strava I see that on a lowly S14 G2 which isn't even that long I can go 6mph or more in the straightaways and average 4.8-5.2mph on a pond with a lot of twists and turns that require slowing down. That is not that much slower than some mid level surfskis I see people paddling on Strava. But a fast(ish) higher end rec kayak is much more practical, useable and user friendly boat.
The biggest speed advantage is indeed downwind which is lost on me because when wind and wave show up I will *NOT* be out on the water. My limit is 5-8mph on the ocean, maybe slightly more inland but I don't want to flip and get swept away so I find something else like riding a bike, taking a run, manual labor or the weight room in my basement. The sport seems to attract 100%ers, those that are willing to do everything it takes to be at the very top. I am more of an 80/20'er, looking to get 80% for the first 20% of effort. While my fitness maxes out the S14 G2, I honestly don't see myself dealing with anything more tippy or any bigger conditions than the little ones I like to go out in. I feel like I have plateaued but I am OK with that because cycling is my main thing and I appreciate the upper body cross training and ability to do something different.
How do you know when it is time to upgrade ?
When you can paddle in 15-20 knots of wind, sidechop, in your current surfski and not be worried at all, then your balance is good.
Or, if you paddle a lot in flat water and have the luxury to have two boats then have two.
I upgraded to a V10 sport from a V7 thinking I was going to be clever. It wasn't clever.
Oops. Sorry about that. Hope you can get the hang of the V10Sport soon!
So true...have one that I'll never be able to paddle...
1:46 how did he know 😭😭
Why no sacrifice a bit of training to make you feel stable in any surfski? This would prevent you from buying more than one ski plus you train balance which is a value in itself. You would also not tell a child not to ride a bike because it's unstable.
Hi Philipp, this is obviously a subjective issue and a difficult one to cover with a blanket solution. Some paddlers truly are in a grey zone and with a bit of focused application will be able to learn on a less stable ski. The lesson in this video is mostly aimed at new paddlers getting into the sport. Less stability equals less optimal paddling which means slower progression, generally. So it is always better to gain confidence and learn effective technique on a more stable platform. Is there a way to "hack" this? Yes indeed there is. If you are persistent enough you can certainly nail it in a quicker than normal time, especially if you are ware that more stable options exist should you not get it right in the less stable boat. About the bike analogy, all skis are unstable, some just more stable than others, and the same goes for bikes. So I wouldn't tell a child to jump on an advanced TT bike to learn, No, but I'm sure they would eventually get it right, hopefully before losing motivation.
I wonder if I can sacrifice stability for speed... Jesus.
Totally agree.... The fastest swimmer is slower than the slowest paddler
The grammar in the title hurts me!
Oops sorry about that...