QUESTION: The main Hat Films channel is about to hit 1 million subscribers but this will trigger an AI that kills a million random people. Do you boycott the channel, or cheer the Hat boiks on to sweet sweet victory?
I feel like the game started with questions where you can actually have a debate over which decision is more moral, but now it's just giving situations where there's one clear answer that's moral and one that's unmistakably immoral, and some aren't about morality at all. This game really went in a weird direction, really enjoying you guys playing it though
I'm more annoyed that it's presenting a binary choice to situations that, in reality, could have easily been dealt with earlier, eg it presumes you mistreat your workers or release a discriminatory AI for driverless cars.
@@RayPoreon yup, that's a fundamental lesson of the trolley question generally. If you're faced with a strict binary choice of two crap things, you have to question the structure/system itself.
I dunno man, It really depends on the person, there are a few people i could think off that would decide to "hack their competitors" because they saw it as an eye for an eye situation, where if they didnt hack, then they would be submitting to the other side. besides even in some of the kill someone not to be found out situations, 30% of people chose to kill.
@@RayPoreon Well thats because plenty of people find themselves in those situations, not to a large scale of course, but it does pop up. They make a mistake at the beginning and then you are asked if you want to double down to avoid personal cost or to relent and make life better for other people, in spite of your personal cost.
I think their intent was less that those questions are supposedly morally equal or to give you some easy ones, but more to put you in a circumstance where if it was you would you do the immoral thing for the sake of your career your personal wealth etc. The hats just didn't do that and instead looked on as an outside observer and picked the clearly right thing to do.
Yeah exactly, data bias is a side effect of racism. Data bias is why POC will be even more ruthlessly policed in our hellish, AI-based facial recognition police-state future.
I think the connection he didn't make or refused to make was that the use of disproportionate data sets in important projects is a symptom of racism, so the AI would be built on racist principles. I think he might have been thinking - not intentionally but its a common pitfall - that racism has to be a deliberate act, rather than just forgetting that minorities exist and are important. Like "The AI isn't racist just because all the datasets available are not diverse, so it's fine" where really the line should be "The AI is racist because the datasets aren't diverse, which is because of racism"
One thing I will say is that I respect the concept of the game. I think my main takeaway is that I would trust Hat Films to entertain me but not to save me from a runaway train, which I think is sensible.
For the amount of "would you rather" questions Smith has asked over the course of the channel, he's very sceptical of this game. (Granted they aren't the best questions, but still)
@@toasty4000000 I haven't seen the final bit of the game, but I suppose it's because the developer isn't part of Yogs, just that Yogs is the publisher - albeit someone surely could have looked over his shoulder and asked "aye you wanna add a cheeky little question in here about some wine or some cheese?" (Or maybe that's his sequel idea - The Wine or Cheese game)
@@ChonkyMonkey1 honestly, I'm pretty sure the boys could make a better videogame based around Wine or Cheese and people would like it more than this. I mean, there's a reason this has mixed reviews on Steam (which in my experience is pretty hard to get if you have even a few positives)
It's not about cost cutting, it's about having someone to scapegoat for the "don't get run over subscription service" prototype getting leaked. No idea why you need to fire five young people as a scapegoat though, aside from the question wanting to call back to the original trolley problem.
Not recognising all people is relevant to the AI deciding who to kill in a car crash because if it doesn't count everyone, it might well go through a crowd of people that it doesn't count as people
Creating a racist AI is pretty easy, if you feed it data from anywhere on the internet you get a LOT of stereotypes and racism, as they are mostly in similar sentences, boosting the knowledge base into thinking it is the actual truth.
@@OrangeDog20 Which is a bad thing that should be compensated for, because there being more people of a particular group in an area doesn't give them a greater right to anything. That's what we're trying to avoid, systemic discrimination.
Smith's reaction to this game pretty much sums up my own. "Meh" overall with a dash of "needlessly inflammatory" thrown in. I realize a lot of hard work went into the making of this game, but that doesn't change that it's still largely garbage or Twitch/TH-cam clickbait material.
I don't think the fact there was effort put in really diminishes the lack of quality. I mean Dust: An Elysian Tail was made by one person and it's fantastic and only $15, then you see this game and it's $10 and you go "what justifies the price of this game that's essentially a mobile game?"
I would definitely choose flamingo.. Not only are flamingos able to fly, they live roughly a long time ( google says 20 to 30 but i know a zoo recently posted about their 60-something year old matriarch passing away ), have few natural predators, are loved by lots of people, and dont have lots of hereditary problems bred into them by people! Heck yeah flamingo
You say it's needlessly inflammatory, but the fact is: facial recognition software has been shown to be less reliable when it comes to minorities. So some of these situations are realistically possible scenarios that developers and coders might have to deal with.
One (somewhat small) reason is simply the way light reflect on darker surfaces. FaceID is something especially challenging on people with little contrast in their skintone. As the camera picks up less information, some of the "depth" is harder to simulate. There are a million other challenges to it, it's actually very interesting. There are so many little things that make it hard to write a general algorithm for all of them. This means companies have to make choices. It's never up to the developers (unless during Research stages). Even if someone wanted to write a good faceID for a certain ethnicity, it would take a lot of time companies can't realistically spend for their usecases.
It's inflammatory as the game is presenting it as if it's a purposeful design or a neglected oversight when in reality it's just a limitation of the current technology.
7:22 difference between this and beta testing games/apps? You get the game free in exchange for doing something for the company and it’s completely up to you to decide if you want to do it or not :)
3:57 what you also have to think about is Francis has probably been with the company a long time. Unfortunately, this happens much too often in the real world where young hires are valued more and even paid more for the same job even though they have no loyalty to the business.
I just learned about that prisoner's dilemma question in my evolutionary psychology class. In that situation, you would definitely want to betray the other person. It has the best cost/benefit outcomes over staying silent.
its interesting on the boys outcome of the evil car AI killing people.. jail the coders because they gave it the base infomaton.... just like how the parents of a murderer should be jailed for how they raised them? thats the exact thing they where trying to get.
I see a lot of people missing the point of this game in the comments (and even the Hat films guys to an extent). It is not a moral dilemma survey. It's a text adventure game with a story. It's just disguised as a survey at the start. And remains one stylistically. It isn't missing the point of moral dilemmas by having one clearly evil and one clearly good option. YOU are missing the point of the game.
I'm fairly sure this game is just designed to piss off whoever is playing it. I'm not sure what the market is for games with narrators that guilt or gaslight you(in a non-comedic way no less).
Its there to make you question your decisions, because by questioning them you can understand on a deeper level why you made them. Its playing devils advocate, which is generally a good thing that people should do to themselves, so they can find the flaws in their own logic. No one is perfect and while this isn't the greatest example, i can see the reasoning of having the narrator do this. Also its far from gaslighting, at least in the definition that gets you to believe something that isnt real. just telling you things can be worse than they initially seem.
I'm not sure what you mean by "in a non-comedic way". It's fine if you don't find the jokes jn the game funny, but it very clearly supposed to be comedic. And something doesn't become non-comedic just because you didn't laugh
@@judemccabe1242 Its doing it in a very poor way. Its not making me question anything, its instisting that I made shit decciosions I would never make and then forcing me i to a binary choice between two choices I would never make. Not to mention that the narrator isnt take a neutral questioning stance, they exist purely to guilt you for whatever choice you made. Plua, it butchers all of the philosophy thats supposed to behind it anyway.
@@eelvis1674 It quite clearly non-comedic. Everything is played straight. For comparison the narrator in the stanley parable is no where near as annoying
@@RayPoreon the entire thing has an un-serious tone. The entire format pokes fun at the kind of moral dilemma "logical questions" that it is styled around. Once again, just because you don't find something funny doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be comedic. I actually find the narrator in the Stanley Parable much more grating and less funny. But you won't catch me telling you that therefore the Stanley Parables narration isn't supposed to funny.
I mean, I understand the moral dilemma angle makes this hard, but a] Literally allowed a guy get away with murder rather than let the police use their car recordings (forgetting they were the ones that recorded the conversations and were the original invaders of privacy!), b] pushed a mentally sick person to their death, rather than let the police deal with the situation, c] said an old man who had given his life to the firm was a boring bastard after they fired him and he topped himself, d] forgot they were in charge of the company that produced the devil car and sent the their own staff to prison blaming them (rather than their management) for the failure of the AI and d] signed up to a service that brainwashed people. Not to mention the persistent inconsistencies in their decision-making throughout (would push a fat man to his death to save 5 people, wouldn't kill a tourist to save 5 people). I do feel the tone was set rather badly early on when Smith, in a bizarre take on a thought-inducing, philosophical exercise said "don't think too much about it" and went with gut instinct over locig and rationality.
4:57 I'm guessing the lads didn't see the news article about a coder installing AI into a microwave oven that after a short time tried to kill him, because it thought he had tried to harm it. That's the thing with AI's, you never know when they decide to go on a killingspree if they're made too advanced to form a consciousness.
QUESTION: The main Hat Films channel is about to hit 1 million subscribers but this will trigger an AI that kills a million random people. Do you boycott the channel, or cheer the Hat boiks on to sweet sweet victory?
Subs been droppingggg
WOOOP WOOOOOOOOOOP CHOCKY BOIIIIIIIIS ONE MILLYYYYYYY
ONE MILLY...TO TOUCH TROTT'S WILLY ♫
Do nothing, Hat Films cannon dictates that they'll never hit 1 million.
I feel like the game started with questions where you can actually have a debate over which decision is more moral, but now it's just giving situations where there's one clear answer that's moral and one that's unmistakably immoral, and some aren't about morality at all. This game really went in a weird direction, really enjoying you guys playing it though
I'm more annoyed that it's presenting a binary choice to situations that, in reality, could have easily been dealt with earlier, eg it presumes you mistreat your workers or release a discriminatory AI for driverless cars.
@@RayPoreon yup, that's a fundamental lesson of the trolley question generally. If you're faced with a strict binary choice of two crap things, you have to question the structure/system itself.
I dunno man, It really depends on the person, there are a few people i could think off that would decide to "hack their competitors" because they saw it as an eye for an eye situation, where if they didnt hack, then they would be submitting to the other side.
besides even in some of the kill someone not to be found out situations, 30% of people chose to kill.
@@RayPoreon Well thats because plenty of people find themselves in those situations, not to a large scale of course, but it does pop up. They make a mistake at the beginning and then you are asked if you want to double down to avoid personal cost or to relent and make life better for other people, in spite of your personal cost.
I think their intent was less that those questions are supposedly morally equal or to give you some easy ones, but more to put you in a circumstance where if it was you would you do the immoral thing for the sake of your career your personal wealth etc. The hats just didn't do that and instead looked on as an outside observer and picked the clearly right thing to do.
I love that Smith brought up implict bias data and somehow argued against it being the problem for why the ai would be racist
Yeah exactly, data bias is a side effect of racism. Data bias is why POC will be even more ruthlessly policed in our hellish, AI-based facial recognition police-state future.
Yeah, that was a bit of a weird conclusion, lmao!
I think the connection he didn't make or refused to make was that the use of disproportionate data sets in important projects is a symptom of racism, so the AI would be built on racist principles. I think he might have been thinking - not intentionally but its a common pitfall - that racism has to be a deliberate act, rather than just forgetting that minorities exist and are important. Like "The AI isn't racist just because all the datasets available are not diverse, so it's fine" where really the line should be "The AI is racist because the datasets aren't diverse, which is because of racism"
@@BrazenSolar well put.
One thing I will say is that I respect the concept of the game. I think my main takeaway is that I would trust Hat Films to entertain me but not to save me from a runaway train, which I think is sensible.
For the amount of "would you rather" questions Smith has asked over the course of the channel, he's very sceptical of this game.
(Granted they aren't the best questions, but still)
real talk tho, how the hell can the yogs produce a trolley problem game without one of the questions being simply "wine or cheese?"
@@toasty4000000 I haven't seen the final bit of the game, but I suppose it's because the developer isn't part of Yogs, just that Yogs is the publisher - albeit someone surely could have looked over his shoulder and asked "aye you wanna add a cheeky little question in here about some wine or some cheese?"
(Or maybe that's his sequel idea - The Wine or Cheese game)
@@toasty4000000 The yogs weren't involved in the actual development of the game TBF, they are just the publishers.
@@winsingtoniii681 how did you see my comment but not the only other one immediately after it replying to it? 🤔
@@ChonkyMonkey1 honestly, I'm pretty sure the boys could make a better videogame based around Wine or Cheese and people would like it more than this. I mean, there's a reason this has mixed reviews on Steam (which in my experience is pretty hard to get if you have even a few positives)
Why does Francis have a paycheck equal to five people. I don't trust he earned that money.
It's not about cost cutting, it's about having someone to scapegoat for the "don't get run over subscription service" prototype getting leaked. No idea why you need to fire five young people as a scapegoat though, aside from the question wanting to call back to the original trolley problem.
I think the premise of this game is exciting but the execution isnt the best
its a hard left wing morality simulator.
@@max16 It really isnt
@@max16 reaching much?
@@max16 Can you explain this comment at all I'm curious
Not recognising all people is relevant to the AI deciding who to kill in a car crash because if it doesn't count everyone, it might well go through a crowd of people that it doesn't count as people
The Bristol pushers
Creating a racist AI is pretty easy, if you feed it data from anywhere on the internet you get a LOT of stereotypes and racism, as they are mostly in similar sentences, boosting the knowledge base into thinking it is the actual truth.
Or you feed it any real world data and it will still learn bias, because every different type of person is not equally distributed everywhere.
@@OrangeDog20 Which is a bad thing that should be compensated for, because there being more people of a particular group in an area doesn't give them a greater right to anything. That's what we're trying to avoid, systemic discrimination.
@@BrazenSolar Nobody said it was a good thing...
@@OrangeDog20 I know, I'm probably defensive because people on the internet tend to argue in bad faith sorry
Yup. That's why that AI that they gave a twitter account to had to be shut off after 24 hours, due to becoming a white supremacist.
Looks like Bristol has a new pusher in town…
Very enjoyable seeing you guys play this for the discussions
Smith's reaction to this game pretty much sums up my own. "Meh" overall with a dash of "needlessly inflammatory" thrown in. I realize a lot of hard work went into the making of this game, but that doesn't change that it's still largely garbage or Twitch/TH-cam clickbait material.
Yeah It’s a TH-camr game really.
I don't think the fact there was effort put in really diminishes the lack of quality. I mean Dust: An Elysian Tail was made by one person and it's fantastic and only $15, then you see this game and it's $10 and you go "what justifies the price of this game that's essentially a mobile game?"
Francis got lost on his way in. Doesn't even work here just wanted a sandwich from the store on the first floor
Reminds me of Todd's arc in Bojack lol
I would definitely choose flamingo.. Not only are flamingos able to fly, they live roughly a long time ( google says 20 to 30 but i know a zoo recently posted about their 60-something year old matriarch passing away ), have few natural predators, are loved by lots of people, and dont have lots of hereditary problems bred into them by people! Heck yeah flamingo
You say it's needlessly inflammatory, but the fact is: facial recognition software has been shown to be less reliable when it comes to minorities. So some of these situations are realistically possible scenarios that developers and coders might have to deal with.
One (somewhat small) reason is simply the way light reflect on darker surfaces. FaceID is something especially challenging on people with little contrast in their skintone. As the camera picks up less information, some of the "depth" is harder to simulate. There are a million other challenges to it, it's actually very interesting. There are so many little things that make it hard to write a general algorithm for all of them. This means companies have to make choices. It's never up to the developers (unless during Research stages).
Even if someone wanted to write a good faceID for a certain ethnicity, it would take a lot of time companies can't realistically spend for their usecases.
It's inflammatory as the game is presenting it as if it's a purposeful design or a neglected oversight when in reality it's just a limitation of the current technology.
Flamingo's can drink boiling water
Fly
Can live up to 30 years
And you still have human intelligence, so I mean...
I love that the golden balls reference came up, I watched those so many times for political science so its nice to see irl lol
3:03 it looks like Ross is speaking here, but i hear nothing.
That thumb nail is incredible.
The life is in the hands of the Hats
Not the diddler's
Programmers should never be blamed.
It is always management.
this game is fucking dumb but the commentary is great lol
I don't think the blow torch would be all that efficient...? going the Lawrence Gordon route seems better to me
wait, was that cancelhatfilms hashtag in game?? I don't understand what happened there, but I enjoyed it, haha
Yeah it was I would have said #cancel(your name)
Guys, you should all go for suggestive hypnosis for a schlog!
7:22 difference between this and beta testing games/apps? You get the game free in exchange for doing something for the company and it’s completely up to you to decide if you want to do it or not :)
3:57 what you also have to think about is Francis has probably been with the company a long time. Unfortunately, this happens much too often in the real world where young hires are valued more and even paid more for the same job even though they have no loyalty to the business.
Fuckin Awesome!
I just learned about that prisoner's dilemma question in my evolutionary psychology class. In that situation, you would definitely want to betray the other person. It has the best cost/benefit outcomes over staying silent.
its interesting on the boys outcome of the evil car AI killing people.. jail the coders because they gave it the base infomaton....
just like how the parents of a murderer should be jailed for how they raised them? thats the exact thing they where trying to get.
Smith did say he would jail Hitler's parents
I see a lot of people missing the point of this game in the comments (and even the Hat films guys to an extent). It is not a moral dilemma survey. It's a text adventure game with a story. It's just disguised as a survey at the start. And remains one stylistically.
It isn't missing the point of moral dilemmas by having one clearly evil and one clearly good option. YOU are missing the point of the game.
It's unfortunate that many of these boil down to Money V Ethics because I find it hard to see if many people would choose money in that.
I'm fairly sure this game is just designed to piss off whoever is playing it. I'm not sure what the market is for games with narrators that guilt or gaslight you(in a non-comedic way no less).
Its there to make you question your decisions, because by questioning them you can understand on a deeper level why you made them. Its playing devils advocate, which is generally a good thing that people should do to themselves, so they can find the flaws in their own logic. No one is perfect and while this isn't the greatest example, i can see the reasoning of having the narrator do this.
Also its far from gaslighting, at least in the definition that gets you to believe something that isnt real. just telling you things can be worse than they initially seem.
I'm not sure what you mean by "in a non-comedic way". It's fine if you don't find the jokes jn the game funny, but it very clearly supposed to be comedic. And something doesn't become non-comedic just because you didn't laugh
@@judemccabe1242 Its doing it in a very poor way. Its not making me question anything, its instisting that I made shit decciosions I would never make and then forcing me i to a binary choice between two choices I would never make.
Not to mention that the narrator isnt take a neutral questioning stance, they exist purely to guilt you for whatever choice you made. Plua, it butchers all of the philosophy thats supposed to behind it anyway.
@@eelvis1674 It quite clearly non-comedic. Everything is played straight.
For comparison the narrator in the stanley parable is no where near as annoying
@@RayPoreon the entire thing has an un-serious tone. The entire format pokes fun at the kind of moral dilemma "logical questions" that it is styled around. Once again, just because you don't find something funny doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be comedic. I actually find the narrator in the Stanley Parable much more grating and less funny. But you won't catch me telling you that therefore the Stanley Parables narration isn't supposed to funny.
Fun fact, if you choose to fire the 5 young workers, one of them commits suicide instead of Francis, so...same guilt trip either way. Yay?
the game really needs to learn that it loses most of it's impact when it just throws these guilt trips constantly
I mean, I understand the moral dilemma angle makes this hard, but a] Literally allowed a guy get away with murder rather than let the police use their car recordings (forgetting they were the ones that recorded the conversations and were the original invaders of privacy!), b] pushed a mentally sick person to their death, rather than let the police deal with the situation, c] said an old man who had given his life to the firm was a boring bastard after they fired him and he topped himself, d] forgot they were in charge of the company that produced the devil car and sent the their own staff to prison blaming them (rather than their management) for the failure of the AI and d] signed up to a service that brainwashed people. Not to mention the persistent inconsistencies in their decision-making throughout (would push a fat man to his death to save 5 people, wouldn't kill a tourist to save 5 people). I do feel the tone was set rather badly early on when Smith, in a bizarre take on a thought-inducing, philosophical exercise said "don't think too much about it" and went with gut instinct over locig and rationality.
This game is somehow worse than yogventures
#cancelhatfilms
4:57 I'm guessing the lads didn't see the news article about a coder installing AI into a microwave oven that after a short time tried to kill him, because it thought he had tried to harm it. That's the thing with AI's, you never know when they decide to go on a killingspree if they're made too advanced to form a consciousness.
Is it just me or does the voice over sound a bit like Theresa May?
this game is an sjw's wet dream
Especially the last question, which isn't even a dilemma, and literally just: "Do you support illegal immigration?".
@@TheRDBat5 and the casual "oh yes,this thing discriminates against whamen and minorities" LOL
*tests your morality on controversial and societal topics*
>This is an sjw game
@@savvysavvington said the SJW
@@Batnano Ah buzzwords. But nah I'm not
Derren Brown and interesting do not go together.
It’s weird because this game just is what it is but it makes for great content