Seeing a lot of comments regarding the Jefferson Curl. We simply follow McGill’s research with back pain related things and have seen AMAZING results with myself and tons of athletes we’ve coached following his methodology. Having said that I have heard and researched a lot about training loaded flexion, but I’ve seen it destroy so many backs(including mine) that I deem it way too risky to comfortably take an athlete through.
Very good stuff guys as usual. Physical therapist and jumper here - I agree with most of what has been said in this video. Just one thing : if you have pain in the leg associated with back pain, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is nerve related. You can also have what is described as “somatic referred pain” meaning that the pain is perceived in the leg but is referred from somatic (non neurogenic) structures such as discs or facet joints. The description of symptoms such as pins and needles / burning / tingling are more in favour of nerve related pain and some clinical tests can help to make the distinction. Usually somatic referred pain has a faster prognosis than neuropathic pain. But neuropathic pain can be treated as well, and we look at the evidence for surgery, it should really be reserved to very specific cases, most people should do rehab and avoid surgery as much as possible. Cheers guys !
Dude, good on you for listening to them. I wish I had this talk before I destroyed my back from Jefferson curls. Over a year rehab man. Learn the easy way, not the hard way lol
@@shakenbacon-vm4eu I’m a NBL1 athlete in Australia and I’ve been imitating Isaiah’s training for a couple years now and have seen crazy results. But these tip videos are always some of their best content 💯
Awesome video! Can you please touch a bit on the subject of Osgood Schlatter in growing adolescents? You would really help a lot of young athletes and most important clarify the information. 🙏
Thoughts on bodyweight or super light weight Jefferson curls? And after rehabbing chronic lower back pain for over a year, at what point or pain level do you think it’s ok to get back into the more explosive stuff like jumping, sprinting, cleans etc. I’m currently at around 2-3 / 10 pain most days. Sometimes a 4. No acute flare up in months. Obviously starting light and building progressively over time. And with cleans, how important is the high pull or catch component of it? Specifically looking at it from the perspective of someone with low back pain history. Does the high pull help with the arm swing force? Does the catch add any value outside of what you can otherwise achieve with a squat? Just weighing up risk vs reward compared to loaded jumps which typically have no arm swing but are still triple extension. How would you and John rate your back pain most days? 0/10 or 1-2/10?
My experience. Got a disc herniation from Jefferson curls and my legs instantly gave out. Terrifying. Took months to recover, rehab, no surgery. However, I was terrified of any spine flexion for like 15 months. It was probably good to avoid spine flexion for a few weeks/months to heal, but my body became so afraid of any flexion that I actually hyperextended and held that 24/7 for months. And hyperextension puts an incredible load on your facets. Actually got a terrible injury , couldn’t walk on a simple lay up during pickup cuz I hyperextended my back way too much, weak ass core. Plus, since I kept my back incredibly stiff and not moving, the back muscles and fascia tightened up so much that my mobility went away and it actually hurt to slightly round or even straighten my back. So once I felt my sciatica to be gone, and I start to go into lumbar flexion and engaging the core, eliminating my anterior pelvic tilt, I felt so much better. Like Isaiah said, Jefferson curls are kinda dangerous and that’s also how I fucked myself up. But things like hollow body ab holds, stretching, yoga, toe touches, and unloaded slow back flexion have incredibly helped me. Really helped me get back to pre injury athleticism. Avoid loaded back flexion or loaded back extension at all costs. Stretching as long as it doesn’t reproduce sciatica? That’s probably gonna bring you back to pre pain levels. For me also, back squats and deadlifts were aggravating me, so I stopped and focused on plyos, flexibility, weight control. Even though THP stresses heavy lifts, as John said if the heavy lifts are hurting you, you gotta take them out and do something out. Getting your spine mobility back is super important too. Just don’t load it. Don’t do explosive under both dunks in practice. Look at Kadur Ziani, he’s all about body weight strength and extreme mobility, no weights. Also look at ballet dancers, insane verts and even more insane mobility, no heavy lifts at all.
Do you even pay attention to any of THP's content? They provide so much information on tendons and knees specifically that I can only assume this is your first video you've ever watched by Isaiah or John.
at 9:40 doesn't make any sense training outside of flexion can improve strength in your back but what can also help strengthen your back is training it in flexion so it can handle the load in whatever your trying to do like under both legs dunk.
Radiologist here who reads mri’s. The imaging almost 100% of the time means nothing unless you have symptoms. That being said, be sure to learn proper technique from a professional before you start lifting, cuz you can feel 100% fine…until at an instant you don’t. Avoid surgery as much as you can. If you feel you need to speak with a surgeon, please place as much weight into advice from a physical therapist and don’t think surgery is a complete fix. Spine re-operations occur about 10% of the time, and if you’re young, that can set up a lifetime of devastating debilitation.
not sure why you guys seem to fear the Jefferson curl? Your back is meant to go into flexion. It is unavoidable and therefore should be trained. However the proper progression is key often people will jump right into it. Simply fearing a movement is pure stupidly and ignorance.
Because we’ve seen it destroy so many backs. You tend to see the success stories with it, what you don’t see is the hundreds of athletes that have come to us damaged from those training methods(you know who I’m talking about) and we have to go in and fix them :/
I don’t consider loaded flexion as basic movement. I trained using loaded flexion for quite a long time and the McGill method by far helped me way more, and allowed me to do dunks that require a bunch of flexion like under both. Having said that there’s multiple ways to skin the cat(pun intended lol), I would just rather not play with fire.
12:50 yes but often times you cant train flexion or other movements you guys fear for whatever reason because it is too intense you might need to start with no weight and build up over time to then be able to handle your sport.
I tried that method and doing the method described in the video was much more effective, and I’ve seen the same results with a ton of athletes I’ve coached
I’ve been training for three years now, lately I’ve been having flair ups in my low back where I feel stiffness and direct pain in what feels like one of my lower vertebrae’s. Do you think I have a herniated disc?
Nice work, but there is no outcome data showing that flexion at the spine is associated with lower back pain. In fact, there is a biomechnical study showing that even keeping an observed neutral spine in squat or deadlift still moves you into a lot of flexion at L5/S1. I would read into Peter O’Sullivans research and look at his Top 10 myths for back pain. It certainly opposes some of McGills philosophies around back pain but will give you the bigger picture around back pain management
I’ve benefitted a lot of yoga but loaded back training is what got be all my problems from a disc. Then I was terrified of any back flexion and went into constant hyperextension which put constant load and pain on my facets. Once my disc healed, I got into yoga and gentle back flexion, really helped to break up all the adhesed fascia and tight ass muscles, opened up my athleticism again. But I disagree, loaded back training is a recipe for disaster. I like kneesovertoes guy but he should stick to knees. His Jefferson curl added decades to my body.
Seeing a lot of comments regarding the Jefferson Curl. We simply follow McGill’s research with back pain related things and have seen AMAZING results with myself and tons of athletes we’ve coached following his methodology. Having said that I have heard and researched a lot about training loaded flexion, but I’ve seen it destroy so many backs(including mine) that I deem it way too risky to comfortably take an athlete through.
yea man, McGill is the back goat
Very good stuff guys as usual.
Physical therapist and jumper here - I agree with most of what has been said in this video. Just one thing : if you have pain in the leg associated with back pain, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is nerve related. You can also have what is described as “somatic referred pain” meaning that the pain is perceived in the leg but is referred from somatic (non neurogenic) structures such as discs or facet joints. The description of symptoms such as pins and needles / burning / tingling are more in favour of nerve related pain and some clinical tests can help to make the distinction. Usually somatic referred pain has a faster prognosis than neuropathic pain. But neuropathic pain can be treated as well, and we look at the evidence for surgery, it should really be reserved to very specific cases, most people should do rehab and avoid surgery as much as possible.
Cheers guys !
Thank you!
Thanks for saving my back G
Dude, good on you for listening to them. I wish I had this talk before I destroyed my back from Jefferson curls. Over a year rehab man. Learn the easy way, not the hard way lol
@@shakenbacon-vm4eu I’m a NBL1 athlete in Australia and I’ve been imitating Isaiah’s training for a couple years now and have seen crazy results. But these tip videos are always some of their best content 💯
Thanks Isaiah this is actually very helpful for me as a young basketball player trying to increase my vert competing with others .
Glad we could help man 🙏🏼
Awesome video! Can you please touch a bit on the subject of Osgood Schlatter in growing adolescents? You would really help a lot of young athletes and most important clarify the information. 🙏
Do you have any exercises to get rid Achilles’ tendon pain
Isaiah please come to New Zealand bro I got you !
Jesus Christ is King and love❤Philippians 4:6-7
What isos´s/slow strenght exercises should i do for tendinopathy at the proximal insertion of the adductor muscles.
HOW MUCH DO YOU WEIGHT? WHAT IS YOUR HEIGHT?
Thoughts on bodyweight or super light weight Jefferson curls?
And after rehabbing chronic lower back pain for over a year, at what point or pain level do you think it’s ok to get back into the more explosive stuff like jumping, sprinting, cleans etc. I’m currently at around 2-3 / 10 pain most days. Sometimes a 4. No acute flare up in months. Obviously starting light and building progressively over time.
And with cleans, how important is the high pull or catch component of it? Specifically looking at it from the perspective of someone with low back pain history. Does the high pull help with the arm swing force? Does the catch add any value outside of what you can otherwise achieve with a squat? Just weighing up risk vs reward compared to loaded jumps which typically have no arm swing but are still triple extension.
How would you and John rate your back pain most days? 0/10 or 1-2/10?
My experience. Got a disc herniation from Jefferson curls and my legs instantly gave out. Terrifying. Took months to recover, rehab, no surgery. However, I was terrified of any spine flexion for like 15 months. It was probably good to avoid spine flexion for a few weeks/months to heal, but my body became so afraid of any flexion that I actually hyperextended and held that 24/7 for months. And hyperextension puts an incredible load on your facets. Actually got a terrible injury , couldn’t walk on a simple lay up during pickup cuz I hyperextended my back way too much, weak ass core. Plus, since I kept my back incredibly stiff and not moving, the back muscles and fascia tightened up so much that my mobility went away and it actually hurt to slightly round or even straighten my back. So once I felt my sciatica to be gone, and I start to go into lumbar flexion and engaging the core, eliminating my anterior pelvic tilt, I felt so much better. Like Isaiah said, Jefferson curls are kinda dangerous and that’s also how I fucked myself up. But things like hollow body ab holds, stretching, yoga, toe touches, and unloaded slow back flexion have incredibly helped me. Really helped me get back to pre injury athleticism. Avoid loaded back flexion or loaded back extension at all costs. Stretching as long as it doesn’t reproduce sciatica? That’s probably gonna bring you back to pre pain levels.
For me also, back squats and deadlifts were aggravating me, so I stopped and focused on plyos, flexibility, weight control. Even though THP stresses heavy lifts, as John said if the heavy lifts are hurting you, you gotta take them out and do something out. Getting your spine mobility back is super important too. Just don’t load it. Don’t do explosive under both dunks in practice. Look at Kadur Ziani, he’s all about body weight strength and extreme mobility, no weights. Also look at ballet dancers, insane verts and even more insane mobility, no heavy lifts at all.
@@shakenbacon-vm4eu love your insight here! Thanks
I was a bit happy about having some back pain because it stop me feeling my patella pain. Seriously.
I just got my first on 10ft yesterday but my quads are killing me, can you make a video about like a bunch of diffrent leg/other body parts pain?
if there sore focus on recovery
@@oscarrr4254 yeah it’s not even soar it’s like straight up pain. Gotta sit out for a while 😭
@@davidcamickofficial still recovery
Do you even pay attention to any of THP's content? They provide so much information on tendons and knees specifically that I can only assume this is your first video you've ever watched by Isaiah or John.
@@philipvana1044 actually I’m in contact with THP and am considering joining, so yeah I’ve seen thier content my guy
Got back from a jump session right now with enormous back pain, there won't ever be a better timing than that, thx youtube
Gotchu!
11:54 yes you build up to handling spinal flexion by actually training spinal flexion in the weight room
I disagree, that has helped some athletes but the method described in the video has been wayyyy more effective in me and the athletes I’ve trained
❤
at 9:40 doesn't make any sense training outside of flexion can improve strength in your back but what can also help strengthen your back is training it in flexion so it can handle the load in whatever your trying to do like under both legs dunk.
It can*, but it can also just make things worse. Playing with fire
Radiologist here who reads mri’s. The imaging almost 100% of the time means nothing unless you have symptoms. That being said, be sure to learn proper technique from a professional before you start lifting, cuz you can feel 100% fine…until at an instant you don’t.
Avoid surgery as much as you can. If you feel you need to speak with a surgeon, please place as much weight into advice from a physical therapist and don’t think surgery is a complete fix. Spine re-operations occur about 10% of the time, and if you’re young, that can set up a lifetime of devastating debilitation.
Thank you!!
How often do you see isthmic type Spondylolisthesis? Thanks!
You prevent injuries by training the more venerable position or position your weak in or never trained like back flexion same thing as knee over toe
That can be veryyyy contra indicative depending on the injury
not sure why you guys seem to fear the Jefferson curl? Your back is meant to go into flexion. It is unavoidable and therefore should be trained. However the proper progression is key often people will jump right into it. Simply fearing a movement is pure stupidly and ignorance.
Because we’ve seen it destroy so many backs. You tend to see the success stories with it, what you don’t see is the hundreds of athletes that have come to us damaged from those training methods(you know who I’m talking about) and we have to go in and fix them :/
If you want to be the "best possible athlete you should be training spinal flexion and stop fearing basic movement.
I don’t consider loaded flexion as basic movement. I trained using loaded flexion for quite a long time and the McGill method by far helped me way more, and allowed me to do dunks that require a bunch of flexion like under both. Having said that there’s multiple ways to skin the cat(pun intended lol), I would just rather not play with fire.
12:50 yes but often times you cant train flexion or other movements you guys fear for whatever reason because it is too intense you might need to start with no weight and build up over time to then be able to handle your sport.
I tried that method and doing the method described in the video was much more effective, and I’ve seen the same results with a ton of athletes I’ve coached
I’ve been training for three years now, lately I’ve been having flair ups in my low back where I feel stiffness and direct pain in what feels like one of my lower vertebrae’s. Do you think I have a herniated disc?
Nice work, but there is no outcome data showing that flexion at the spine is associated with lower back pain. In fact, there is a biomechnical study showing that even keeping an observed neutral spine in squat or deadlift still moves you into a lot of flexion at L5/S1. I would read into Peter O’Sullivans research and look at his Top 10 myths for back pain. It certainly opposes some of McGills philosophies around back pain but will give you the bigger picture around back pain management
To prevent back pain you should strength train the back in all ranges of motions like full rom Jefferson curl, back extension and ql extension.
I disagree
I’ve benefitted a lot of yoga but loaded back training is what got be all my problems from a disc. Then I was terrified of any back flexion and went into constant hyperextension which put constant load and pain on my facets. Once my disc healed, I got into yoga and gentle back flexion, really helped to break up all the adhesed fascia and tight ass muscles, opened up my athleticism again. But I disagree, loaded back training is a recipe for disaster. I like kneesovertoes guy but he should stick to knees. His Jefferson curl added decades to my body.
i am first)
Any movement is going to aid in recovery for back but mcgil big 3 is a complete joke