The Octatonic Scale And Its Subsets
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ค. 2024
- This 4th episode in the series on the Pressing Scales explains the Octatonic set and its subsets using examples from Scriabin and more.
What's your favorite subset of the octatonic scale?
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That gospel example you gave half way through still managed to sound like late scriabin
Haha yea kinda similar to the sonata 7 octatonic chords moving minor 3rds!
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Thanks! Could you do a video on the different modes of the 7-note octatonic subset? Several of them have "ethnic" names like "Romanian major scale" or "Hungarian major scale" and I would love to get a grip on all the different ones and which are commonly used.
Jay, I'd like to bring to your notice two additional scales which I believe would have a lot of potential, although, since they don't meet your definition of Pressing scales (a category I had never heard of before), it's possible you may not be interested in them.
They are both scales of the sort usually called "symmetrical" - although I prefer the term "periodic", and switched to that once I discovered there were two different ways a scale could be symmetrical, and the term therefore became ambiguous. A periodic scale is one which can be divided into two or more equal portions ("periods"), each of which has identical intervallic make-up - so the hexatonic and octatonic scales you explore are both periodic in this sense. (The other way a scale can be symmetrical is that its intervals, as seen from a particular point in the scales, are palindromic. The Dorian mode of the diatonic scale is probably the best-known example: if we use numbers to count the semitones in each interval, the intervals in an octave of the Dorian mode go 2122212. This means that the Dorian mode is a mirror-reflection of itself, which is clearly a form of symmetry, and I tend to useu the term "self-reflective" for such scales.)
The two scales of interest that I would like to tell you about could, I suppose, be called the nonatonic and the decatonic scales, because they have 9 and 10 notes respectively. I don'to believe Scriabin used either scale, so it may be outside your ambit for that reason.
The nonatonic scale divides into 3 periods each of 3 intervals, and an example of it would go thus:
C D D# E F# G G# A# B
This scale consists of all notes in the chromatic scale but with one augmented triad removed - alternatively it results from when you combine the whole-tone and hexatonic scales into a superset.
(Correct enharmonic spelling becomes a problem, because there seems to be no obvious single correct way of spelling notes and chords within this scale, so one might as well use the "sharps rising, flats falling" approach to minimize accidentals. Maybe if you were composing music in it, and using certain chords as your basis, you would spell those chords in a way that made sense, and other notes could then be relative to that, so that possibly even double accidentals might make sense in certain situations. Some say that double accidentals never make sense outside the context of traditional harmony, but Scriabin's use of double accidentals in octatonic passages, for example, show that he doesn't agree with that - and nor do I.)
The decatonic scale divides into 2 periods each of 5 intervals, and an example of it would go thus:
C C# D D# E F# G G# A Bb
This scale consists of all notes in the chromatic scale but with two notes forming a tritone removed - alternatively it results from when you combine two instances of a combined dominant major 9th and major 13th a tritone apart. Such a chord expressed as a scale would be C D E G A Bb, or, as a chord, C E G Bb D A - and the one a tritone apart would be F# G# A# C# D# E, or F# A# C# E G# D# (or these spelled in Gb, if you prefer). Actually, you could simplify this by stating it as two pentatonic scales combined which are a tritone apart (C D E G A and F# G# A# C# D#). It gives the same end result, but I mentioned the dominant-7th-based structures, because they offer an obvious harmonic basis you could use to compose music in this scale.
I don't know any music which deliberately uses this scale, although it sort of happens by accident in occasional passages in the music of British composer John Ireland. He likes using the dominant 9th and 13th combination I mentioned above, and he also likes juxtaposing them a tritone apart, so that inevitably produces passages that conform to this scale, which could be regarded as being "in" this scale for brief periods. However, Ireland was a late romantic and impressionist who was interested in exotic harmonym but not scales as such, so I think it is unlikely he was consciously composing in such scales. But he does also use the octatonic scale in a way that does seem more deliberate.
I would be interested to hear what you think about these scales, and whether they are of interest to you.
The first one is simply Messiaen mode 3.
Cool, yea those are probably the two most relevant giant sets. I would refer to them as having everything except an augmented chord and without a tritone respectively. I liked the insights you mentioned about them like how the second is like two pentatonic scales!
Are you saying periodic is another term that’s synonymous with symmetrical? (Otherwise, I don’t see the difference). Indeed there is transpositional symmetry and inversional symmetry. I suppose a palindrome is another cool property, although I’d say that all modes of the diatonic set have inversional symmetry.
Yes, and I’d figure that the other one mentioned is also a Messiaen mode of limited transposition.
@@jaybeardmusic8074yes, they're modes 3 and 7 respectively. The first one is better known as the Enneatonic scale, and can actually be found ocassionally in some of Scriabin's music. Look into Rajan Lal's analysis on "Scriabin's Arsenal of Sonorities," this scale is mentioned alongside other Pressing scales and modes of limited transposition. (the connections between scriabin and messiaen are actually quite interesting if you look into them!)
The enneatonic collection AKA Messiaen mode 3 also appears in some jazz, notably Coltrane's Giant Steps due to its major third symmetry. It can be found in Ravel, Boulez, Opeth and obviously Messiaen.
The other one doesn't have a name other than 10-6 as far as I'm aware so Dekatonic will do. Due to its size and consequent resemblence to the chromatic scale, it appears very rarely but it can be found is Messiaen's "l'Ascension: Prière du Christ montant vers son Père."
Yes, I know they are both Messiaen modes. I just wanted to find out if you had any thoughts about, or interest in, exploring these scales.
0:15 That's a funny pronunciation of Scriabin =)
Haha that’s how I normally pronounce it! “Scri-ah-bin”.
I can imagine the proper Russian pronunciation might be more like “Scri-uh-bin”. How do you pronounce it?
Nothing funny about that. It's how I pronounce it myself, and how most English-speaking people do. (I don't necessarily think Russians would pronounce it the same way.)
@@michaeledwards1172 yes Sir but he was a real person, and there is physical sound of his name that is poorly represented by the English alphabet
A more accurate transcription of the name would be Skrjabin. There's no syllable between 'Skr' and 'jabin,' it's all just one long cluster
@@StanSerebryakov I understand that the English alphabet may poorly represent the sounds used in Scriabin's last name. I certainly don't pretend that the way his name is pronounced by English-speaking people, including myself, is the way it would be pronounced in Russian. I have heard that, and it is a sound that many English-speaking people would find difficult to get right.
I don't even try to get it exactly right. If I got concerned about that, I would have to learn the proper pronunciation of hundreds of names from other languages, not just Scriabin's, and I don't think most people would find it practical to do that. It seems an acceptable compromise to properly enunciate the form of name commonly used in one's language.
I would not expect to hear Chinese or Russian or Spanish speakers (for a few random examples) to pronounce my own name exactly correctly, and I would not in the least object to it if they only approximated it.
Craziest octotonic subset: 3-11
Haha yea we normally think of major/minor triads being related to the diatonic set, but actually they’re in all the pressing scales besides the whole tone scale!