When i said reset the cooldown on victory rush, i obviously meant to reset it and allow it be used. Just as an FYI. So it works like a proc....I could of made that clearer. Join this channel to get access to perks: th-cam.com/channels/yMNUoiD0vlmFtiriDtVI5Q.htmljoin The War Within Rested XP Guide is here now! You can pre order here{also Classic/SoD guides} - www.restedxp.com/ref/scottejaye/ Get TSM Premium to make RIDICULOUS amounts of gold - tradeskillmaster.com/a/Scottejaye
it wouldnt be able to be used until impending victory is added in cause the only way u can use victory rush is if u have it talented and it's at 20% or lower hp but the barrier change wouldnt work since warriors are very rage starved atm until mop warrior needs help but they need alot of it more then u've suggested like increasing rage gen or adding another form of mit just something cause im not a fan of dks this and druids that just feels very sweaty imagine grabbing 2 tanks that dont do anything for ur grp like stamp roar is decent but eh u dont need movement all the time but dsac or rally now thats quite good
@@XThegamerofPC Yea thats why i say it would have to be a proc mate, so victory rush becomes usable and resets the cd. As for being rage starved, i'll be completely honest i've not tanked on a prot warrior at all in cataclysm so i'll have to take your word for that. The point of barrier/frezied regen (for druid) is the fact you have to make a choice between the self heal or threat/defensive so i feel like pooling rage and worrying less about pumping out loads of abilities would be the way it would work (in my mind :P ) Even as a feral tank in mop when trying to maximise savage defense uptime as well as pumping damage it can feel like you dont have much rage to spend on frenzied regen at times, i can only compare it to druid because its what i play a hell of a lot. Appreciate your feedback though, really do. It's the whole point of this video is to get some feedback and thoughts from the people that actually actively tank in Cata.
@@Scottejaye I should mention also while yes a proc would be nice their is the problem of warrior threat as well which doesn't get addressed until mop so there's some pulls where u can get miss/ parry strings and just have people die just because of rng being bad the rage starved thing is happening for warriors mainly as druids are kinda ok with theirs. Warriors need lots of help i will say tho prot warrior is alot of fun once u know what to do its quite smooth and yeah while it doesnt do as much dmg as a blood dk it still provides great value to a raid grp :) currently im raiding on alliance mankrik 10/13 hc
In mop a lot of stuff gets corrected but also they fixed og things that happened back in the day that isn't happening now like block formula being retail's vs actual cata og formula was 45% norm block 90% crit block ( can be 100% but was rare and had to be lucky) or the fact that we're dealing with last patch so warriors can't be at avoidance cap which they should be by now going into FL ik I was back in the day
They should buff the other tanks before nerfing DK's. Honestly, its not even really 'needed' - every tank can do the job. DK's just do it better and do insane amounts of damage.
Honestly Scotte, it won’t matter what you do to tank self healing if the other tanks are doing 1/5 the damage of a BDK. The reason why no one takes a prot warrior is because their damage is absolutely trash comparably.
@ probably easiest method would be changing the the vengeance cap *per class* instead of constant. It’s already not a factor in PvP, and would require no mechanical changes to the class rotations. Just make things hit harder when tanking something.
@@majorbones251 Been the same in Wotlk almost for prot warriors vs BDK. abit worse in cata i would say tho. since prot warrior could MT all bosses in WOTLK but can't survive every boss in cata as MT. Maloriak dark phase for example. the lack of absorb breaks that possibility
As prot paladin I've taken to using my Word of Glory as one of my key abilities anyways. There are so many times where I can use it to "mitigate" the big hit I just took by instantly healing. It's pretty nice when it's a crit but realistically it does nothing except buy my healer a tiny bit of time to top me off. That or I'll use it to heal my healer since their mana pool is usually what surviving comes down to at the end of the day. I've always got that feeling like I'm squishy though which is frustrating. Our Hpally in 10 man To4W made a comment about how he forgot he needs to actually heal me since he hardly needs to heal the BDK that usually does it. I'm better geared than him but again when it comes to the MT it's always going to be the BDK for obvious reasons.
Thing is with borrowing from mop is that some classes benefited from the mop exclusive vengeance mechanic and their damage and healing was amplified as a result, so if we were to copy/paste aspects of MoP tanks then there would have to be some tuning involved with that whcih is a good idea in theory but in practice a fair chunk of work. The argument could be made that the two big adds that are in the Alysrazor fight already implement the vengeance style with their mechanic so it is doable.
Yea totally agree mate, i'm definitely not saying this is something they could do in 5 minutes, would defo need some fine tuning for sure. Cheers for the feedback
BDK being as strong as it is has made healers worse at tank healing. IMO the biggest issue with how strong BDK are is that healers have gotten used to how little healing they need to direct towards the BDK tank during normal situations, and then when it's a non-BDK doing a taunt swap it feels like the healers are caught off guard and unprepared for the amount of healing they suddenly need to do. No matter how well I communicate a taunt swap, and no matter how long the healers have had to get used to the difference between healing the BDK vs healing me, it STILL feels like a coin flip as to whether I will live after a taunt swap. Some of the blame rests on the healers' shoulders in my specific group, of course. They've had literally an entire phase of taunt swaps to get used to what it's like to heal me as compared to a BDK, so on some level they should definitely know better. But speaking broadly, the average healer NEEDS a BDK. BDK's are a crutch for healers, and some groups think their tank healers are fine when they're actually just being propped up by their BDK. And then literally anyone other than a BDK tanks instead and they fall over. It ends up looking like the non-BDK tank is doing something wrong rather than the healers, because "heals are fine when the BDK is tanking" and the most obvious difference to the rest of the raid is who's tanking. But it's the healers, man. They're too used to healing BDKs - they've forgotten how to heal a tank that can't compete with actual healers on the healing meters
Easy way to fix warrior: 1. Adjust mastery scaling so they reach CTC coverage quicker, this then makes all physical dmg taken reduced by 30-60%. This would also make it so warriors don't have to invest 100% into avoidance stats and could gem more offensively as DK and druids often do. 2. Remove the decreased healing on victory rush procs when specced into it and increase its proc rate (it rarely procs in a fight and when it does it heals for 15k, vs a true rush of around 70k heal.) This would provide warriors with some reliable self healing which they are the only tank to have none in their kit which isn't tied to a long cd 3. remove the shared cd on Rallying Cry and Last Stand. No other tank has to decide between using a personal cd or a raid Cd.
Agree with everything here. Be amazing changes. I would add just one more: Thunderclap automatically adds rend to all targets when used in defensive stance.
For the paladin glyph you described, i would say change from 30% physical reduction to magic reduction. Physical dmg isnt the thing that you blink and die from, 7/10 times thats from magic
as a player that litterally plays all 4 tanks for my guild. this video has hit the nail on the head. your suggestion are spot on mate. love your videos and love your content. not sure if iv ever fully 100% agreed with you in ur videos, but this time i defiantly do! great suggestions! do i think blizzard will listen???? not even a little
Easiest fix for prot warrior: give them a couple free points of hit and expertise free in deep prot tree so the dmg is closer to dk. Then make defensive stance stop 5% more damage baseline. Done.
Bears would have a problem with their T13 4piece bonus granting Frenzied Regen to all raid members. Maybe something that makes a low prio skill give more survival. Like Pulverize heals for X% of HP for each lacerate consumed. Or perhaps give Lacerate dot a leech affect. Or maybe Berserk causes mangle to also heal you. Or Thorns while cast in bear from no longer cancels the shapeshift and also reduces damage taken by amount equal to the thorns effect. Or you can now cast Lifebloom in Bear form, and its healing power is increased by your attack power. But realistically since Blood is so far above the rest they should just be nerfed. Easier solution to the problem. Perhaps a tweak to the armor and/or damage reduction of Blood Presence to just make DKs a lot more bursty. Their whole shtick was that they're less chonky but make up for it with strong self healing. What we have is they're just as solid as the other tanks and they've got nearly a healers worth of self healing.
with this, feral dps currentlt has predatory swiftnes (i think?) where you get 20% per combo point to get a free instant regrowth, problem is it takes you out of cat form. I think they changed it when bloodtalons came in (was that MoP?) if so they could have that adjusted to work for bear form and use regrowths (only from procs) usable in bear form.
As a Prot Warrior main, both survivability and damage would need improved as without improving both, people still only going to want BDK. I've seen 0 interest in being taken into Firelands so far, despite having decent logs (including rank 100s on some bosses!). Blizz got so many options they could implement: - Buff warrior ability scaling with AP so our damage is competitive. - Boost vigilance vengenace transfer to 75%. Mechanically, warriors are not suited for off tanking due to incoming damage being very important for our ability to create outgoing damage, a limitation other tanks don't really have (DK runes, runic power, mana, holy power and cat energy) - Make devastate bonus damage actually meaningful; turn flat 22 bonus damage per stack of sunder into 10% bonus damage per stack. - Turn victory rush into Impending Victory with devastate to proc a chance to reset CD. - Improve mastery scaling. - Add Punishment; make Shield Slam and Shockwave apply -10% physical damage for 4 seconds. - Make demo shout a CD for -20% damage on a 1 minute cooldown, 10 sec duration. - Bake the 10% AP reduction from demo shout to passively apply from devastate (why do warriors and druids - who need every GCD for damage - need to use a GCD to apply this and lose damage when DKs passively apply this from normal rotation?). - Add 10% magic damage reduction while spell reflect is active. - Reverse the gutting of shield block, make it 50% increased block chance, with duration scaling based on how much rage consumed (10-40 rage for 10 to 16 seconds) - Make shield wall great again and a 60% DR. - Uncouple the last stand / rallying cry cooldown. It's just bad design that warriors (and only warriors) lose their raid cooldown if they use a personal. Make it so that the warrior cannot use LS while their own RC is active and vice versa. - Minor, but make it so that Pummel cannot be blocked. Little known fact is that warrior pummel can be blocked which means we are the only class whose interrupt can miss.
Quick note, warrior's Victory Rush already doesn't have a meaningful CD. However, it DOES require you, specifically, to have killed a mob in order to use it. I think removing that requirement via a glyph would help prot warriors self sustain a ton as it is a pretty reliable self heal. For example my prot warrior can solo the shadow realm of Valiona and Theralion without a healer just by killing the mobs and victory rush chaining. It's never sketchy at all and I only have to come back up when the other tank is about to get sent down.
As someone who mains Prot paladin, the first suggestion is nice. Shield of Righteous actually healing us and giving us 30% damage reduction for X seconds would be nice. Anything further would be too much.
Prot Warrior main here, our survivability is honestly at a really good place and is just going to get better in FL when mitigation capping starts to be more obtainable. I don't think making us sturdier is going to increase interest in having us as tanks. For prot warriors the problem is our damage, we're laughably weak compared to the other tanks. In general, bringing a prot warrior over a blood dk is costing the raid 10-20k dps and that's just too expensive for it to be a consideration. I don't hate the victory rush idea but mostly because turning impeding victory into a glyph would free up 2 talent points to go into more offense focused places. Personally I'd focus on Vengeance. First keep vengeance scaling at 10% for blood, raise bear to 12.5%, pally to 15%, and prot warrior to 17.5% (alternatively raise prot warrior to 15% and allow some ap scaling on Devastate's damage, something low like a .15 or .2 modifier would help out a ton). Next, decrease the rate of decay for Vengeance. This would buff blood damage a little but it'll mostly benefit us poor saps who are stuck OTing or add tanking more often. I really believe damage just needs to be more normalized between the tank specs and we'd start seeing groups more open to taking a chance on a non-meta tank. Another avenue would be to give prot spec anger management so we aren't rage starved while inactive but I think that'd be a more invasive approach than people would be cool with.
I didn’t even realize the massive difference in warrior damage until tonight. I’m a Prot Pally and our BDK couldn’t make raid tonight for Firelands so our warrior went prot to OT for me. When we got to Alysrazor I killed my bird when his was still at like 55%. Granted I’m more geared and more experienced as a Prot Pally than he is at Prot Warrior but still it was insane how much different it was. I was doing almost double his dps on the bird.
@@dfcd1432 oh totally and it's honestly not a surprise that more people haven't noticed. If there's 3+ target constantly attacking us with 1-1.5 swing timers so we can spam inner rage and cleave while rend is ticking away, then we do insane damage. But what i described is dungeon tanking, there's no raid encounter that's like that. Single target we have to sacrifice so much hit and expertise to get mitigation capped that we can be out dpsed by a disc priest or telluric currents resto shammy.
Another Vengeance-specific thing is that when a Feral shifts Cat, Vengeance completely goes away entirely. This was obviously supposed to prevent Ferals from cheesing Cat damage by getting Vengeance in Bear form and then blasting with giga boosted AP in Cat form, but it seems weird that Blizz would decide to make the actual Vengeance buff drop when entering Cat form instead of just putting some sort of qualifier on the AP gain such that it doesn't affect Cat form AP. I can be in Bear, gain full Vengeance, drop form to heal myself, then re-enter Bear form and never lose Vengeance. But as soon as I hit Cat form the buff disappears entirely and I have to start over from 0. This is a big deal specifically because Savage Defense scales off of AP, so off-tanking as Feral can feel punishing at times. Like, I want to go Cat after the other tank taunts and contribute as much damage as I can while I'm not actively tanking, but there are some fights where it makes more sense to just stay in Bear because the time in between tanking stuff is small enough that it feels like a waste to dump my Vengeance for just 1 Rip cycle on the boss. Idk, Vengeance was a decent concept and I understand why they added it and what they were trying to do with it, but the implementation definitely feels clunky
@tableslam oh gross! Bear is the one tank I know next to nothing about. Honestly I think the only restriction should be having to be in bear to gain vengeance, it shouldn't be lost in cat form(beyond typical decay). I know that could lead to some cat shenanigans. But feral dps swapping to bear during heavy AoE damage to increase survivability and vengeance stack, then getting a damage boost for a bit in car form is a gameplay loop that makes sense to me.
@@pizzacational Yeah, my WotLK Lacerateweave DPS brain likes the idea, but I definitely understand why they didn't want Cat form to benefit from Vengeance and I agree from a balancing standpoint. But like, why not just make it so Vengeance only increases Bear form AP instead of all AP, and the buff persists in all forms? It's just so weird and seems like it wasn't thought out fully. You don't lose Savage Roar when you go from Cat to Bear even though SR only increases Cat auto-attack damage. The buff is there in Bear form but doesn't do anything while you're in Bear, so it's clearly possible to have that sort of qualifier tag on an ability so that it only affects one form but not the other.
The changes you suggest to pala and warrior are both pretty decent all in all but the druid requires additional change to T13 set bonus for feral tanks. As of now, it will apply FR to the entire raid at half the efficiency. So if glyphed it will increase healing taken by 25%. If you make FR have no CD and work the way it works in MOP it will heal the raid a massive amount. So the solution would be to make the tier set bonus be affected by the druid shieldwall ability instead and reduce dmg taken. This however means that pala, warrior and Druids will all have raidwall where dks will have Vamp blood. so again, you'd probably want to change the set bonus for DKs to work with IBF instead of VB. The other issue as mentioned several times before is the issue of dmg dealt. While other tanks can technically provide decent damage it's nowhere near BDK dmg in both single or AOE situations. right now, taking a BDK means you're not only taking the best tank in terms of survivability, but also take a tank that deals similar dmg as a full DPSer. You'd want to increase the dmg of other tanks maybe by adjusting the amount of vengence they can get. so if a BDK can get 10% of their HP as AP, other tanks will be able to get 20%. this will help bridge the gap in dmg.
Flashing back to original Cata. I played pally tank through all the tiers up until DS, but I couldn't keep up with blood then either. Had to switch to a healer. Our raid wall which was a nice bonus for prot felt bad after DS launched because all tanks got a raid wall with their 4 set. I think there was some consolation prize for prot, but don't remember what.
idk if you need to do that I play prot warrior. 2 changes would make them in line and it would not need glyphs. 1 with how prot warriors are supposed to be like THE block guy their block should work on magic damage too; what I mean by that is cho for example when he is in fire hits with a normal hit and a fire hit on the same auto I can block the physical part but not the fire part since that is part of an attack and not a spell I should also block the fire damage part if I block as well and secondly just have impending victory the talent in the tree work on the boss at all times not just under 20%.
They need to address the "off tank" viability for these classes too. Main benefit of feral is that you can just shift to cat and blast when you dont need 2 active tanks. Warrior and Pala just can't compete. Buffing vigilance could be an option for Warrior at least.
I can't complain because I play prot pala games and not like 99% like the others and like some guide suggests, but as a full aviodence tank. You just have to know what you can get out of your class and also know what it means to be a tank. Not like all the guides say with the BDK full dps and mastery that's not a tank, in my eyes that's a dd that is listed as a tank, a tank has to stop damage and hold up. I'd love your thoughts on it :D
i was supposed to main prot warr in cata, wich been my main since classic era, but it was deemed impossible, really sad cous i still think its the most fun tank to play
For prot pally i would like seal of lights healing to be added to vengance and buffed up to heal maybe 10% of damage done per strike. That constant healing would put us in a more favourable place. We do decent damage already.
I was doing more damage as my blood dk than multiple people in dungeons it was my offspec and i had a 333 weapon when people were rocking the heroic askhandi's.
I’m sure that I’m alone in this thinking, but it is not the duty of a tank to have the highest DPS and healing while tanking. And I believe that is very much where classic is lost. The tank has a very specific job while DPS and healing also have their very specific jobs to do. It’s on my opinion they should nerve to take back to a tanking role. If that is what they choose to use their character for.
Absolutely. Tanks should aim to take as little damage as possible. Being able to survive on their own is fine, to some extent. But the fact DKs can literally survive on their own, take arguably as little damage as Paladins and at the same time be top 10 DPS, that's insane. It's horrible balancing from Blizzard, in other words.
It's not really possible to fix tanks in Cata, the bosses are built around dealing big hits where block is .... kinda dog, paladins and warriors way of mitigating damage is "ancient" in Cata, DK's in wrath and Druids in TBC changed how raid bosses had to work. First in Sunwell they had to add a massive debuff so druids wouldn't just never get hit and same thing in ICC. In cata Paladin's are close to functional however just missing the ctc cap more accessable because they have what warriors don't CD's! A decent raid CD and a way of soaking a killing blow. But overall you can't really change the tanks, because if you do they could end up being GIGA broken in either 10 or 25 very easily. A quick baseline of the tanks playing all 3 tanks (hue hue hue warrior tanks .... go back to vanilla or wait for M+) DK's do what they do GREAT, high HP lots of self CD's. If having to tank lots of mobs can get dicked. (maybe a little overtuned on dmg compared to other tanks) Druids can beat any other tank when it comes to OT cause they can go into cat form and deal dmg..... but their dmg is lacking and that is their weakness. Paladin's are actually IMO in a decent spot, they have a lot of utility with CD's for themselves and others, their dmg is respectable, their selfheal if played properly is decent and they become tolerable to play once you have hit and soft exp cap + ctc cap.
I agree to everything but one thing. The way block works in Cata actually excels on big hits. It used to be really useful on small hits in Wrath, resulting in 0 damage taken from multiple small hits, but now its a flat % damage reduction. And with the addition of CDs that increase your Block Value, such as Holy Shield, you pretty much mitigate the damage taken by 50%. DK tanks cant do that, unless they build a huge shield before that. Warriors can do that, but not reliably, yet. Druids dont do it either, they have their small 25k shield, lots of armor and huge HP pools. Otherwise, yes. Pro paladins are actually in a decent spot. The only issue they have is that Word of Glory feels more like a CD than a heal. Should be on a 8-10s CD in my opinion. And obviously they need more gear to get hit/expertise capped (or near the cap), then they will start doing some damage.
Paladins need self sustain not DR imo. New paladin glyph: When you cast Shield of The Righteous you also cast Word of Glory on yourself at half effectiveness. Warrior: increase defensive stance damage reduction to 20%. Also give a 10% damage buff. BDK: 10% damage nerf druid: IDK, could probably leave them alone tbh.
I think victory rush is too strong for warriors. I think something along the lines of their second wind ability, dont remember which xpac it was, but once a warrior got under 30% hp theyd have insane self healing. I think that plus the shield barrier would make them really nice. You wouldnt have to worry about keeping them topped since their low hp self healing would be enough to keep them at 30% hp without a healer having to do anything.
And the long waited mop will be the some story :D bdk are just the best of all.. nothing really changes for them other then they are just even better..
It is like everyone forgets going thru Cata dk starts winding down after just coming out oof Wrath where dk was the Hero class they are supposed to be stronger, that doesn't make pally or war no fun they are both just as fun, just let the dk keep the hero light a little longer sheesh lol
Its easy enough to give any class that 1-2 more cooldowns they need to be perfectly viable as tanks in almost all cases. But, thats not why DKs are strong, its the DPS numbers they put out while being able to tank. You can fix the damage intake easily enough, make the classes more interactive to play, but when push comes to shove, if DKs do 2-3 times more damage than paladin/warrior, youre not gonna bring them(pala/warr). Glyph ideas are good, i myself felt as warrior having access to VR with a chance to reset + making Spell Reflect a 20-30% DR on spell damage would be enough and stay more inline with cata philosophy, but in any case, youd need to fix their DPS aswell, arguable, even more important. AOE for both i think are generally fine, its the single target damage that simply put, is just way too trash, to warrant bringing any of them.
For the warriors, I'm not sure if you can keep the current shield block. I don't know if cata SB or mop SB is stronger, but I think the point of shield barrier is that it is worse defensively per point of rage than shield block, and maybe if cata SB is worse since it's only 25% increased block it might make you default to just always using shield barrier instead. But yeah ultimately I would like to see defensively and offensively the other tanks being brought up to a DK's level assuming the DK was wearing tank gear. Presumably even after this, DKs would have an easier time running DPS trinkets and stuff relative to the other tanks and thus would still cap out at more damage but all the tanks trying to 'tank' would be equal. Easier said than done, but I love my pwar and it's way more fun to play in dungeons compared to my BDK.
Both effects are 100% block chance, cata version just doesnt cost rage, has no charges, and has baseline 1 min cd (30 sec with talent). MoP is 100% stronger version, especially cuz prot warrior overflows with rage usually.
bdk sometimes hit top dps on raid, imagine ure a ot and you need to take threat from bdk its not fun just one hit basic attack from bdk can take all the threat from boss
If you have a table and one leg is longer than the other three it's far easier to cut the one that's too long than it is to make the other three match it's length. This is why when one class is more OP than others in that role that blizzard uses the nerf bat. Prot Wars, and prot pals can get into raid teams. They might not get into ultra hardcore server first guilds but there is room for them on the other teams. Truth be told they are janky because they require a steady and calculated rotation of external CDs like hand of sac and pain suppression. Most people playing prot war are also following the wowhead guide to a tee and using the deep wounds build which is very unnecessary in P1 piercing how build brings far more utility to the raid team on bosses like Maloriak H and Nef having the ability to perpetually slow and and AoE stun adds is quite the combo but often overlooked by the average player. We were never going to get full CTC coverage in P1 so not shifting stats into Hit and Expertise for their respective caps also impedes warrior success in raids since you can't afford to have any misses or dodges with your attacks if you expect to keep pace with Blood DK threat. Also often overlooked talent is the battle trance talent in the fury tree which gives you a free use on ability that costs more than 20 rage.
well, I understand the issue, but the abilities specially for paladin and warrior that you mentioned, relied heavily on vengeance and the way it worked in mist, not to mention they were so strong that basically kicked druids and DKs from tanking scene (yea I know your MT was DK back in the day, talking about top guilds). I just think that honestly, it's just too late, Paladins are gonna start scaling nicely from this tier on, and warriors, well, just don't play prot warr for another 6-7 months :D cause making that kinda changes can really mess up everything at this point.
@dfcd1432 not if you think in terms of raw tanking but the raid buffs and ability to skip game mechanics with bubbles and an extra life was super OP. It took a long time before good MT guides even became available for the other tanks, because the assumption was that you would just run Pala; especially at the start of the expansion. They were also significantly better at AoE tanking. Of course they couldn't cloth tank like DKs but they marginalized the other tanks to the same degree for most of Wrath.
What's the meaning of introduce a Heroic class, when you want to put it in the normal bracket like the rest?? Just leave it that way... All the rest of the tanks can do the job like they mean to be.
As someone who tanks on both a DK and a paladin, both main and off tank - I can say situationally there are scenarios in T11 (though few) I prefer the paladin over the DK without changes - I.E. Nefarian on adds I prefer the paladin. However, don't touch my DK - I only see the top of the meters with DPS when grouping with pugs or random dungeons with servers that shall not be named.
I also preferred my Pally tanking Halfus. Significantly higher avoidance kept my healing debuff stacks down compared to my DK that got full 12 stacks almost immediately.
@@blueprintbdk Well I didn't even mean bubbling off stacks because you could make that work with bopping a DK, but my pally just has so much higher avoidance that I can go longer without needed to bubble.
Too bad most the players in group finder can't conceptualize up-time with ANY class and want to cycle a 3 min CD twice in a 40 minute dungeon and I don't get to see bDK being "OP" when I look at the overall CDs used and my hpal has 60 and I see everyone else at 10 my overall interrupts rivals and tops my CDs used. Anything to fill in the gaps for prot warr/pally would be sick remove that fucking CD on WoG so I can get a prot pally that can double pull trash mobs and not RP in my dungeon group we can finally drag it onto the boss and lust it up
prot pallies also have too much rng in their self heal, i've seen it heal for as little as 2% to as much as 50%. but yeah prot pally is prob the weakest of the 4 tanks in cata, where in wrath they were pretty op.
lol, lots of really great ideas to make more than one class viable, too bad blizz doesn’t care about how the game actually plays…did you get your new store bought mount?
They should not touch the classes in classic, if anything they should remove long ass farms. And a version of the game with no leveling and no gear, only one raid difficulty that would be like mythic on crack would be amazing, the only limitation would be your skill has a player.
yo scotty can you make a video about why the hell JJ is turned off? and idk... tell them to turn that shit back on there is ZERO reason why JJ shouldnt be on for ppl to level alts and get to gearing.
Used to be tank main from classic to the end of Wotlk ,for Cata i've decided to reroll hard on healing only and from what ive seen healing on 4 healers -i really dont like healing Dk's .This new dps/haste meta is so stupid its not even funny ,heavy spike dmg,close to 0 avoidance due to stacking dps stats /trinkets /rings etc Sure if you are kind of OK Dk you can time your shields and mitigate some of the dmg but how many of the dk's actually know what to do ? id say less than 25% and its kind of annoying .I prefer to heal properly build prot paladin any day of the week . Cant w8 for warriors to cap their avoidance so we can have more realistic tanks around im getting tired of the false hype around dks .
Yeah those people aren't playing tank DK they're a stam stick wall with parse brain trying to be a DPS as a tank. Real tanks aren't playing like that. The 4.3 patch boosts individual DPS by almost 20% (Which is why many private servers applied a DPS dampening to put content to the proper balance point) So fights are getting zerged 'before the healer ooms' So they are putting their survival 100% on you so they can play parse monkey. It's a pretty asinine mind set really.
Its too late to "fix" tanking. I switched to DK early Cata and sat my pally and warrior. Why bother at this point. Plus I dont trust blizz not to fuck up something else
Who cares, its rehashed old content that doesnt really matter anymore. If you can only enjoy nostalgia, then enjoy the OP of certain classes and stop moaning about it
Why are we keep asking for changes to classes that never happened in original cata? Can ee try and play it as authentic as possible why we keep asking for more changes?
HOLY FUDGE YOU JUST BECAME MY FAVORITE WOW DUDE, All I was thinking when the video started is, "he's gonna say to nerf DKs" and all I was thinking is nerf=feelsbadman / buff=goodfeelsdude.
prot pally and prot warrior are both simple and only require 1 thing, I've commented before on this channel and the only reply was someone saying it would make them broken. Just add an absorb shield based on damage blocked. The whole point of shield tanks is to block damage but neither get any meaningful absorb shields. Warriors have crit block but less cooldowns than prot warrior so it would still be balanced. Say you have 40% mastery, Say you block 50k damage from a hit, 40% of 50k is 20k, adds a 20k absorb shield. Puts them on par with BDK and we can see people playing tank classes they prefer rather than "NEEDING" a BDK. Cause lets face it, you can do all content with any tank but the class of player in classic is lower than original live and they need more hand holding however bringing other tanks up to par is better than nerfing BDK.
Everyone want to just whine about stupid shit. Please nerf this. Then they do and they want something else nerfed or buffed. Boo hoo some more. You will never be happy.
When i said reset the cooldown on victory rush, i obviously meant to reset it and allow it be used. Just as an FYI. So it works like a proc....I could of made that clearer.
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it wouldnt be able to be used until impending victory is added in cause the only way u can use victory rush is if u have it talented and it's at 20% or lower hp but the barrier change wouldnt work since warriors are very rage starved atm until mop warrior needs help but they need alot of it more then u've suggested like increasing rage gen or adding another form of mit just something cause im not a fan of dks this and druids that just feels very sweaty imagine grabbing 2 tanks that dont do anything for ur grp like stamp roar is decent but eh u dont need movement all the time but dsac or rally now thats quite good
@@XThegamerofPC Yea thats why i say it would have to be a proc mate, so victory rush becomes usable and resets the cd. As for being rage starved, i'll be completely honest i've not tanked on a prot warrior at all in cataclysm so i'll have to take your word for that. The point of barrier/frezied regen (for druid) is the fact you have to make a choice between the self heal or threat/defensive so i feel like pooling rage and worrying less about pumping out loads of abilities would be the way it would work (in my mind :P ) Even as a feral tank in mop when trying to maximise savage defense uptime as well as pumping damage it can feel like you dont have much rage to spend on frenzied regen at times, i can only compare it to druid because its what i play a hell of a lot.
Appreciate your feedback though, really do. It's the whole point of this video is to get some feedback and thoughts from the people that actually actively tank in Cata.
@@Scottejaye I should mention also while yes a proc would be nice their is the problem of warrior threat as well which doesn't get addressed until mop so there's some pulls where u can get miss/ parry strings and just have people die just because of rng being bad the rage starved thing is happening for warriors mainly as druids are kinda ok with theirs. Warriors need lots of help i will say tho prot warrior is alot of fun once u know what to do its quite smooth and yeah while it doesnt do as much dmg as a blood dk it still provides great value to a raid grp :) currently im raiding on alliance mankrik 10/13 hc
In mop a lot of stuff gets corrected but also they fixed og things that happened back in the day that isn't happening now like block formula being retail's vs actual cata og formula was 45% norm block 90% crit block ( can be 100% but was rare and had to be lucky) or the fact that we're dealing with last patch so warriors can't be at avoidance cap which they should be by now going into FL ik I was back in the day
Yes I get that theirs md or tricks but some grps just don't have em so it's very difficult
Buff the other Tank-specs to perform on par, everyone will be a happy camper.
You really don't know the wow playerbase, do you? :P Theres always someone butthurt regardless of what they change
Buff everyone so that everyone 1 shots heroic bosses first try. Easy!
They should buff the other tanks before nerfing DK's.
Honestly, its not even really 'needed' - every tank can do the job. DK's just do it better and do insane amounts of damage.
As someone who would dabble in prot warrior.. or sometimes forced to off tank.. I really wish prot warrior and prot pally were stronger in Cata.
Prot paladin are ridiculous good already especially in ape tanking.
trogg farming is BiS as prot warrior.
dungeons are still fun to tank
@@nexusobserve yea but that's mostly solo content. Raid is where warrior really struggles
@@Keygo nerfing dks wont make warriors better...
@@stickyone11 nowhere in my comment did i even mention dk lmao
Honestly Scotte, it won’t matter what you do to tank self healing if the other tanks are doing 1/5 the damage of a BDK.
The reason why no one takes a prot warrior is because their damage is absolutely trash comparably.
Yea the damage output aspect is definitely something else that could be adressed for sure
@ probably easiest method would be changing the the vengeance cap *per class* instead of constant.
It’s already not a factor in PvP, and would require no mechanical changes to the class rotations. Just make things hit harder when tanking something.
@@majorbones251 Been the same in Wotlk almost for prot warriors vs BDK. abit worse in cata i would say tho. since prot warrior could MT all bosses in WOTLK but can't survive every boss in cata as MT. Maloriak dark phase for example. the lack of absorb breaks that possibility
Warrior who can't put out decent damage need to grow a pair and reforge to hit and Expertise caps and then learn how to play.
As prot paladin I've taken to using my Word of Glory as one of my key abilities anyways. There are so many times where I can use it to "mitigate" the big hit I just took by instantly healing. It's pretty nice when it's a crit but realistically it does nothing except buy my healer a tiny bit of time to top me off. That or I'll use it to heal my healer since their mana pool is usually what surviving comes down to at the end of the day.
I've always got that feeling like I'm squishy though which is frustrating. Our Hpally in 10 man To4W made a comment about how he forgot he needs to actually heal me since he hardly needs to heal the BDK that usually does it. I'm better geared than him but again when it comes to the MT it's always going to be the BDK for obvious reasons.
Thing is with borrowing from mop is that some classes benefited from the mop exclusive vengeance mechanic and their damage and healing was amplified as a result, so if we were to copy/paste aspects of MoP tanks then there would have to be some tuning involved with that whcih is a good idea in theory but in practice a fair chunk of work.
The argument could be made that the two big adds that are in the Alysrazor fight already implement the vengeance style with their mechanic so it is doable.
Yea totally agree mate, i'm definitely not saying this is something they could do in 5 minutes, would defo need some fine tuning for sure.
Cheers for the feedback
BDK being as strong as it is has made healers worse at tank healing. IMO the biggest issue with how strong BDK are is that healers have gotten used to how little healing they need to direct towards the BDK tank during normal situations, and then when it's a non-BDK doing a taunt swap it feels like the healers are caught off guard and unprepared for the amount of healing they suddenly need to do. No matter how well I communicate a taunt swap, and no matter how long the healers have had to get used to the difference between healing the BDK vs healing me, it STILL feels like a coin flip as to whether I will live after a taunt swap.
Some of the blame rests on the healers' shoulders in my specific group, of course. They've had literally an entire phase of taunt swaps to get used to what it's like to heal me as compared to a BDK, so on some level they should definitely know better. But speaking broadly, the average healer NEEDS a BDK. BDK's are a crutch for healers, and some groups think their tank healers are fine when they're actually just being propped up by their BDK. And then literally anyone other than a BDK tanks instead and they fall over. It ends up looking like the non-BDK tank is doing something wrong rather than the healers, because "heals are fine when the BDK is tanking" and the most obvious difference to the rest of the raid is who's tanking. But it's the healers, man. They're too used to healing BDKs - they've forgotten how to heal a tank that can't compete with actual healers on the healing meters
I agree, most healers suck at their job
Easy way to fix warrior:
1. Adjust mastery scaling so they reach CTC coverage quicker, this then makes all physical dmg taken reduced by 30-60%. This would also make it so warriors don't have to invest 100% into avoidance stats and could gem more offensively as DK and druids often do.
2. Remove the decreased healing on victory rush procs when specced into it and increase its proc rate (it rarely procs in a fight and when it does it heals for 15k, vs a true rush of around 70k heal.) This would provide warriors with some reliable self healing which they are the only tank to have none in their kit which isn't tied to a long cd
3. remove the shared cd on Rallying Cry and Last Stand. No other tank has to decide between using a personal cd or a raid Cd.
Agree with everything here. Be amazing changes.
I would add just one more: Thunderclap automatically adds rend to all targets when used in defensive stance.
I like your suggestions much more than @Scottejaye :D
For the paladin glyph you described, i would say change from 30% physical reduction to magic reduction. Physical dmg isnt the thing that you blink and die from, 7/10 times thats from magic
as a player that litterally plays all 4 tanks for my guild. this video has hit the nail on the head. your suggestion are spot on mate. love your videos and love your content. not sure if iv ever fully 100% agreed with you in ur videos, but this time i defiantly do! great suggestions! do i think blizzard will listen???? not even a little
I’m levelling a prot warrior right now and I love it, I don’t care if they’re considered weak.
Easiest fix for prot warrior: give them a couple free points of hit and expertise free in deep prot tree so the dmg is closer to dk. Then make defensive stance stop 5% more damage baseline. Done.
Bears would have a problem with their T13 4piece bonus granting Frenzied Regen to all raid members. Maybe something that makes a low prio skill give more survival. Like Pulverize heals for X% of HP for each lacerate consumed. Or perhaps give Lacerate dot a leech affect. Or maybe Berserk causes mangle to also heal you. Or Thorns while cast in bear from no longer cancels the shapeshift and also reduces damage taken by amount equal to the thorns effect. Or you can now cast Lifebloom in Bear form, and its healing power is increased by your attack power.
But realistically since Blood is so far above the rest they should just be nerfed. Easier solution to the problem. Perhaps a tweak to the armor and/or damage reduction of Blood Presence to just make DKs a lot more bursty. Their whole shtick was that they're less chonky but make up for it with strong self healing. What we have is they're just as solid as the other tanks and they've got nearly a healers worth of self healing.
with this, feral dps currentlt has predatory swiftnes (i think?) where you get 20% per combo point to get a free instant regrowth, problem is it takes you out of cat form. I think they changed it when bloodtalons came in (was that MoP?) if so they could have that adjusted to work for bear form and use regrowths (only from procs) usable in bear form.
As a Prot Warrior main, both survivability and damage would need improved as without improving both, people still only going to want BDK.
I've seen 0 interest in being taken into Firelands so far, despite having decent logs (including rank 100s on some bosses!). Blizz got so many options they could implement:
- Buff warrior ability scaling with AP so our damage is competitive.
- Boost vigilance vengenace transfer to 75%. Mechanically, warriors are not suited for off tanking due to incoming damage being very important for our ability to create outgoing damage, a limitation other tanks don't really have (DK runes, runic power, mana, holy power and cat energy)
- Make devastate bonus damage actually meaningful; turn flat 22 bonus damage per stack of sunder into 10% bonus damage per stack.
- Turn victory rush into Impending Victory with devastate to proc a chance to reset CD.
- Improve mastery scaling.
- Add Punishment; make Shield Slam and Shockwave apply -10% physical damage for 4 seconds.
- Make demo shout a CD for -20% damage on a 1 minute cooldown, 10 sec duration.
- Bake the 10% AP reduction from demo shout to passively apply from devastate (why do warriors and druids - who need every GCD for damage - need to use a GCD to apply this and lose damage when DKs passively apply this from normal rotation?).
- Add 10% magic damage reduction while spell reflect is active.
- Reverse the gutting of shield block, make it 50% increased block chance, with duration scaling based on how much rage consumed (10-40 rage for 10 to 16 seconds)
- Make shield wall great again and a 60% DR.
- Uncouple the last stand / rallying cry cooldown. It's just bad design that warriors (and only warriors) lose their raid cooldown if they use a personal. Make it so that the warrior cannot use LS while their own RC is active and vice versa.
- Minor, but make it so that Pummel cannot be blocked. Little known fact is that warrior pummel can be blocked which means we are the only class whose interrupt can miss.
Quick note, warrior's Victory Rush already doesn't have a meaningful CD. However, it DOES require you, specifically, to have killed a mob in order to use it. I think removing that requirement via a glyph would help prot warriors self sustain a ton as it is a pretty reliable self heal. For example my prot warrior can solo the shadow realm of Valiona and Theralion without a healer just by killing the mobs and victory rush chaining. It's never sketchy at all and I only have to come back up when the other tank is about to get sent down.
War Tank already have a weak heal but only in execution phase (and Victory Rush heals is less subsequent in tank spec)
To me, essentially giving classes different versions of the same thing is the opposite thought process of what I enjoy about classic.
If they changed druids frenzied regen they would have to rework it again for the dragon soul set bonus. Seems like a lot of work.
As someone who mains Prot paladin, the first suggestion is nice. Shield of Righteous actually healing us and giving us 30% damage reduction for X seconds would be nice. Anything further would be too much.
Prot Warrior main here, our survivability is honestly at a really good place and is just going to get better in FL when mitigation capping starts to be more obtainable. I don't think making us sturdier is going to increase interest in having us as tanks. For prot warriors the problem is our damage, we're laughably weak compared to the other tanks. In general, bringing a prot warrior over a blood dk is costing the raid 10-20k dps and that's just too expensive for it to be a consideration. I don't hate the victory rush idea but mostly because turning impeding victory into a glyph would free up 2 talent points to go into more offense focused places.
Personally I'd focus on Vengeance. First keep vengeance scaling at 10% for blood, raise bear to 12.5%, pally to 15%, and prot warrior to 17.5% (alternatively raise prot warrior to 15% and allow some ap scaling on Devastate's damage, something low like a .15 or .2 modifier would help out a ton). Next, decrease the rate of decay for Vengeance. This would buff blood damage a little but it'll mostly benefit us poor saps who are stuck OTing or add tanking more often. I really believe damage just needs to be more normalized between the tank specs and we'd start seeing groups more open to taking a chance on a non-meta tank.
Another avenue would be to give prot spec anger management so we aren't rage starved while inactive but I think that'd be a more invasive approach than people would be cool with.
I didn’t even realize the massive difference in warrior damage until tonight. I’m a Prot Pally and our BDK couldn’t make raid tonight for Firelands so our warrior went prot to OT for me. When we got to Alysrazor I killed my bird when his was still at like 55%.
Granted I’m more geared and more experienced as a Prot Pally than he is at Prot Warrior but still it was insane how much different it was. I was doing almost double his dps on the bird.
@@dfcd1432 oh totally and it's honestly not a surprise that more people haven't noticed. If there's 3+ target constantly attacking us with 1-1.5 swing timers so we can spam inner rage and cleave while rend is ticking away, then we do insane damage. But what i described is dungeon tanking, there's no raid encounter that's like that. Single target we have to sacrifice so much hit and expertise to get mitigation capped that we can be out dpsed by a disc priest or telluric currents resto shammy.
Another Vengeance-specific thing is that when a Feral shifts Cat, Vengeance completely goes away entirely. This was obviously supposed to prevent Ferals from cheesing Cat damage by getting Vengeance in Bear form and then blasting with giga boosted AP in Cat form, but it seems weird that Blizz would decide to make the actual Vengeance buff drop when entering Cat form instead of just putting some sort of qualifier on the AP gain such that it doesn't affect Cat form AP.
I can be in Bear, gain full Vengeance, drop form to heal myself, then re-enter Bear form and never lose Vengeance. But as soon as I hit Cat form the buff disappears entirely and I have to start over from 0. This is a big deal specifically because Savage Defense scales off of AP, so off-tanking as Feral can feel punishing at times. Like, I want to go Cat after the other tank taunts and contribute as much damage as I can while I'm not actively tanking, but there are some fights where it makes more sense to just stay in Bear because the time in between tanking stuff is small enough that it feels like a waste to dump my Vengeance for just 1 Rip cycle on the boss.
Idk, Vengeance was a decent concept and I understand why they added it and what they were trying to do with it, but the implementation definitely feels clunky
@tableslam oh gross! Bear is the one tank I know next to nothing about. Honestly I think the only restriction should be having to be in bear to gain vengeance, it shouldn't be lost in cat form(beyond typical decay). I know that could lead to some cat shenanigans. But feral dps swapping to bear during heavy AoE damage to increase survivability and vengeance stack, then getting a damage boost for a bit in car form is a gameplay loop that makes sense to me.
@@pizzacational Yeah, my WotLK Lacerateweave DPS brain likes the idea, but I definitely understand why they didn't want Cat form to benefit from Vengeance and I agree from a balancing standpoint. But like, why not just make it so Vengeance only increases Bear form AP instead of all AP, and the buff persists in all forms? It's just so weird and seems like it wasn't thought out fully. You don't lose Savage Roar when you go from Cat to Bear even though SR only increases Cat auto-attack damage. The buff is there in Bear form but doesn't do anything while you're in Bear, so it's clearly possible to have that sort of qualifier tag on an ability so that it only affects one form but not the other.
The changes you suggest to pala and warrior are both pretty decent all in all but the druid requires additional change to T13 set bonus for feral tanks.
As of now, it will apply FR to the entire raid at half the efficiency. So if glyphed it will increase healing taken by 25%.
If you make FR have no CD and work the way it works in MOP it will heal the raid a massive amount.
So the solution would be to make the tier set bonus be affected by the druid shieldwall ability instead and reduce dmg taken.
This however means that pala, warrior and Druids will all have raidwall where dks will have Vamp blood. so again, you'd probably want to change the set bonus for DKs to work with IBF instead of VB.
The other issue as mentioned several times before is the issue of dmg dealt.
While other tanks can technically provide decent damage it's nowhere near BDK dmg in both single or AOE situations.
right now, taking a BDK means you're not only taking the best tank in terms of survivability, but also take a tank that deals similar dmg as a full DPSer.
You'd want to increase the dmg of other tanks maybe by adjusting the amount of vengence they can get. so if a BDK can get 10% of their HP as AP, other tanks will be able to get 20%. this will help bridge the gap in dmg.
Flashing back to original Cata. I played pally tank through all the tiers up until DS, but I couldn't keep up with blood then either. Had to switch to a healer. Our raid wall which was a nice bonus for prot felt bad after DS launched because all tanks got a raid wall with their 4 set. I think there was some consolation prize for prot, but don't remember what.
Honestly, those are great solutions. I’d like this and it would be easy to implement given they’d be glyphs
idk if you need to do that I play prot warrior. 2 changes would make them in line and it would not need glyphs. 1 with how prot warriors are supposed to be like THE block guy their block should work on magic damage too; what I mean by that is cho for example when he is in fire hits with a normal hit and a fire hit on the same auto I can block the physical part but not the fire part since that is part of an attack and not a spell I should also block the fire damage part if I block as well and secondly just have impending victory the talent in the tree work on the boss at all times not just under 20%.
Eh any block change should apply to pally too. Their entire setup is also based on blocking.
They need to address the "off tank" viability for these classes too. Main benefit of feral is that you can just shift to cat and blast when you dont need 2 active tanks. Warrior and Pala just can't compete. Buffing vigilance could be an option for Warrior at least.
I can't complain because I play prot pala games and not like 99% like the others and like some guide suggests, but as a full aviodence tank. You just have to know what you can get out of your class and also know what it means to be a tank. Not like all the guides say with the BDK full dps and mastery that's not a tank, in my eyes that's a dd that is listed as a tank, a tank has to stop damage and hold up.
I'd love your thoughts on it :D
i was supposed to main prot warr in cata, wich been my main since classic era, but it was deemed impossible, really sad cous i still think its the most fun tank to play
For prot pally i would like seal of lights healing to be added to vengance and buffed up to heal maybe 10% of damage done per strike. That constant healing would put us in a more favourable place. We do decent damage already.
The problem is it’s not constant healing that’s needed, it’s the big burst heal spikes like a fat Death Strike that’s needed.
@@dfcd1432 Prot paladins dont take big bursts of damage, thats DKs only pretty much. They also have Ardent Defender and Word of Glory.
I was doing more damage as my blood dk than multiple people in dungeons
it was my offspec and i had a 333 weapon when people were rocking the heroic askhandi's.
Not sure if I like the victory rush reset for warriors. Maybe something more with the absorb?
I’m sure that I’m alone in this thinking, but it is not the duty of a tank to have the highest DPS and healing while tanking. And I believe that is very much where classic is lost. The tank has a very specific job while DPS and healing also have their very specific jobs to do. It’s on my opinion they should nerve to take back to a tanking role. If that is what they choose to use their character for.
Absolutely. Tanks should aim to take as little damage as possible. Being able to survive on their own is fine, to some extent. But the fact DKs can literally survive on their own, take arguably as little damage as Paladins and at the same time be top 10 DPS, that's insane. It's horrible balancing from Blizzard, in other words.
It's not really possible to fix tanks in Cata, the bosses are built around dealing big hits where block is .... kinda dog, paladins and warriors way of mitigating damage is "ancient" in Cata, DK's in wrath and Druids in TBC changed how raid bosses had to work. First in Sunwell they had to add a massive debuff so druids wouldn't just never get hit and same thing in ICC.
In cata Paladin's are close to functional however just missing the ctc cap more accessable because they have what warriors don't CD's! A decent raid CD and a way of soaking a killing blow.
But overall you can't really change the tanks, because if you do they could end up being GIGA broken in either 10 or 25 very easily.
A quick baseline of the tanks playing all 3 tanks (hue hue hue warrior tanks .... go back to vanilla or wait for M+)
DK's do what they do GREAT, high HP lots of self CD's. If having to tank lots of mobs can get dicked. (maybe a little overtuned on dmg compared to other tanks)
Druids can beat any other tank when it comes to OT cause they can go into cat form and deal dmg..... but their dmg is lacking and that is their weakness.
Paladin's are actually IMO in a decent spot, they have a lot of utility with CD's for themselves and others, their dmg is respectable, their selfheal if played properly is decent and they become tolerable to play once you have hit and soft exp cap + ctc cap.
I agree to everything but one thing. The way block works in Cata actually excels on big hits. It used to be really useful on small hits in Wrath, resulting in 0 damage taken from multiple small hits, but now its a flat % damage reduction. And with the addition of CDs that increase your Block Value, such as Holy Shield, you pretty much mitigate the damage taken by 50%. DK tanks cant do that, unless they build a huge shield before that. Warriors can do that, but not reliably, yet. Druids dont do it either, they have their small 25k shield, lots of armor and huge HP pools.
Otherwise, yes. Pro paladins are actually in a decent spot. The only issue they have is that Word of Glory feels more like a CD than a heal. Should be on a 8-10s CD in my opinion. And obviously they need more gear to get hit/expertise capped (or near the cap), then they will start doing some damage.
I love my prot pally even tho im not as powerful as others i still have fun with the class fantasy
Paladins need self sustain not DR imo.
New paladin glyph: When you cast Shield of The Righteous you also cast Word of Glory on yourself at half effectiveness.
Warrior: increase defensive stance damage reduction to 20%. Also give a 10% damage buff.
BDK: 10% damage nerf
druid: IDK, could probably leave them alone tbh.
I think victory rush is too strong for warriors. I think something along the lines of their second wind ability, dont remember which xpac it was, but once a warrior got under 30% hp theyd have insane self healing. I think that plus the shield barrier would make them really nice. You wouldnt have to worry about keeping them topped since their low hp self healing would be enough to keep them at 30% hp without a healer having to do anything.
The easiest fix of all be to do what blizz did to Fury warriors in WotLK and make blood presence reduce damage done by 10% or even 20% problem solved.
And the long waited mop will be the some story :D bdk are just the best of all.. nothing really changes for them other then they are just even better..
Prot paladin is the best on MoP private servers
@@brimstonevalar6053 Brew is fine
It is like everyone forgets going thru Cata dk starts winding down after just coming out oof Wrath where dk was the Hero class they are supposed to be stronger, that doesn't make pally or war no fun they are both just as fun, just let the dk keep the hero light a little longer sheesh lol
Its easy enough to give any class that 1-2 more cooldowns they need to be perfectly viable as tanks in almost all cases. But, thats not why DKs are strong, its the DPS numbers they put out while being able to tank. You can fix the damage intake easily enough, make the classes more interactive to play, but when push comes to shove, if DKs do 2-3 times more damage than paladin/warrior, youre not gonna bring them(pala/warr). Glyph ideas are good, i myself felt as warrior having access to VR with a chance to reset + making Spell Reflect a 20-30% DR on spell damage would be enough and stay more inline with cata philosophy, but in any case, youd need to fix their DPS aswell, arguable, even more important. AOE for both i think are generally fine, its the single target damage that simply put, is just way too trash, to warrant bringing any of them.
For the warriors, I'm not sure if you can keep the current shield block. I don't know if cata SB or mop SB is stronger, but I think the point of shield barrier is that it is worse defensively per point of rage than shield block, and maybe if cata SB is worse since it's only 25% increased block it might make you default to just always using shield barrier instead.
But yeah ultimately I would like to see defensively and offensively the other tanks being brought up to a DK's level assuming the DK was wearing tank gear. Presumably even after this, DKs would have an easier time running DPS trinkets and stuff relative to the other tanks and thus would still cap out at more damage but all the tanks trying to 'tank' would be equal. Easier said than done, but I love my pwar and it's way more fun to play in dungeons compared to my BDK.
Both effects are 100% block chance, cata version just doesnt cost rage, has no charges, and has baseline 1 min cd (30 sec with talent). MoP is 100% stronger version, especially cuz prot warrior overflows with rage usually.
@@Craftee6Cata SB is only 25% Increased block chance, not 100% like MoP
@@Calgar-xi7ph He has no idea what he is talking about. Seen him comment a few times now, he probably doesn't even play warriors...
30% DR + instant ogcd strong heal would make paladins the best tank by far when you consider their utility. Also very very easy to play.
I'm here for the prot pally solve. Thumbs up for that.
bdk sometimes hit top dps on raid, imagine ure a ot and you need to take threat from bdk its not fun just one hit basic attack from bdk can take all the threat from boss
If you have a table and one leg is longer than the other three it's far easier to cut the one that's too long than it is to make the other three match it's length. This is why when one class is more OP than others in that role that blizzard uses the nerf bat. Prot Wars, and prot pals can get into raid teams. They might not get into ultra hardcore server first guilds but there is room for them on the other teams. Truth be told they are janky because they require a steady and calculated rotation of external CDs like hand of sac and pain suppression.
Most people playing prot war are also following the wowhead guide to a tee and using the deep wounds build which is very unnecessary in P1 piercing how build brings far more utility to the raid team on bosses like Maloriak H and Nef having the ability to perpetually slow and and AoE stun adds is quite the combo but often overlooked by the average player. We were never going to get full CTC coverage in P1 so not shifting stats into Hit and Expertise for their respective caps also impedes warrior success in raids since you can't afford to have any misses or dodges with your attacks if you expect to keep pace with Blood DK threat. Also often overlooked talent is the battle trance talent in the fury tree which gives you a free use on ability that costs more than 20 rage.
as long as you buff the others and don't nerf blood 👍
Is it really the best way to buff the other tanks to the dks level since they already are way too broken for cata?
well, I understand the issue, but the abilities specially for paladin and warrior that you mentioned, relied heavily on vengeance and the way it worked in mist, not to mention they were so strong that basically kicked druids and DKs from tanking scene (yea I know your MT was DK back in the day, talking about top guilds).
I just think that honestly, it's just too late, Paladins are gonna start scaling nicely from this tier on, and warriors, well, just don't play prot warr for another 6-7 months :D cause making that kinda changes can really mess up everything at this point.
A good bdk can top both damage and healing in dungeons. This is really blizzard who has ignored the game.
I dont understand why they should change something with the Class in Cataclysm - We got 4.3.4 Patch so there is no balance needed anymore.
Cool idea but its Blizzard we're talking about, they can easily just slap a nerf on BDK and be done with it
I don't think that the one guy who works in Cata Classic has time for so many changes!
Make a mention about Ret Paladins relying too heavily on Divine Purpose for dps if Blizzard are listening
Let's also make a post about arms warriors relying too heavily on mortal strike, and assa rogues being too poison focused.
They didn't change anything to Pala tanks in Wrath, so I doubt they will change anything on DK now.
Pally was the best in Wrath but not even close to the same margin as Blood is now.
@dfcd1432 not if you think in terms of raw tanking but the raid buffs and ability to skip game mechanics with bubbles and an extra life was super OP. It took a long time before good MT guides even became available for the other tanks, because the assumption was that you would just run Pala; especially at the start of the expansion.
They were also significantly better at AoE tanking.
Of course they couldn't cloth tank like DKs but they marginalized the other tanks to the same degree for most of Wrath.
What's the meaning of introduce a Heroic class, when you want to put it in the normal bracket like the rest?? Just leave it that way... All the rest of the tanks can do the job like they mean to be.
Hey Scottie, you use your influence at Blizzard yet to get some updates to Prot Warrior? 😀
As someone who tanks on both a DK and a paladin, both main and off tank - I can say situationally there are scenarios in T11 (though few) I prefer the paladin over the DK without changes - I.E. Nefarian on adds I prefer the paladin. However, don't touch my DK - I only see the top of the meters with DPS when grouping with pugs or random dungeons with servers that shall not be named.
I also preferred my Pally tanking Halfus. Significantly higher avoidance kept my healing debuff stacks down compared to my DK that got full 12 stacks almost immediately.
@@dfcd1432 Yeah, being able to bubble off the stacks is the perfect example.
@@blueprintbdk Well I didn't even mean bubbling off stacks because you could make that work with bopping a DK, but my pally just has so much higher avoidance that I can go longer without needed to bubble.
blood DK is so good running delves as well
Delves? Isnt that retail?
I'd be curious to really see what Subtle has to say about the situation. Love the content, Scottie!
if he fixes his microphone/ positioning of mic
Love how you edit your video but leave the dog walking around in “sorry about that” 😅
Best part of the video leaves at 4:12
pally is fine , warrior does struggle
i was paying attention up to the moment your dog started licking its bum. then burst out with laughter!
amen brother
Too bad most the players in group finder can't conceptualize up-time with ANY class and want to cycle a 3 min CD twice in a 40 minute dungeon and I don't get to see bDK being "OP" when I look at the overall CDs used and my hpal has 60 and I see everyone else at 10 my overall interrupts rivals and tops my CDs used. Anything to fill in the gaps for prot warr/pally would be sick remove that fucking CD on WoG so I can get a prot pally that can double pull trash mobs and not RP in my dungeon group we can finally drag it onto the boss and lust it up
Warriors become very good in DS
prot pallies also have too much rng in their self heal, i've seen it heal for as little as 2% to as much as 50%. but yeah prot pally is prob the weakest of the 4 tanks in cata, where in wrath they were pretty op.
They should of balance the tanks before the release of Cata
MoP can't come quick enough.
lol, lots of really great ideas to make more than one class viable, too bad blizz doesn’t care about how the game actually plays…did you get your new store bought mount?
blood dk's just run around mad;y pulling everything when healers OOM in dungs then wineing when everyone is dead but him.
Prot warrior is extremely viable in cata. I MT blood and my OT is prot. Some fights he does even better than me
All the content can be cleared with Prot tanks. That doesn't mean it's ideal.
They should not touch the classes in classic, if anything they should remove long ass farms.
And a version of the game with no leveling and no gear, only one raid difficulty that would be like mythic on crack would be amazing, the only limitation would be your skill has a player.
yo scotty can you make a video about why the hell JJ is turned off? and idk... tell them to turn that shit back on there is ZERO reason why JJ shouldnt be on for ppl to level alts and get to gearing.
Used to be tank main from classic to the end of Wotlk ,for Cata i've decided to reroll hard on healing only and from what ive seen healing on 4 healers -i really dont like healing Dk's .This new dps/haste meta is so stupid its not even funny ,heavy spike dmg,close to 0 avoidance due to stacking dps stats /trinkets /rings etc Sure if you are kind of OK Dk you can time your shields and mitigate some of the dmg but how many of the dk's actually know what to do ? id say less than 25% and its kind of annoying .I prefer to heal properly build prot paladin any day of the week . Cant w8 for warriors to cap their avoidance so we can have more realistic tanks around im getting tired of the false hype around dks .
Yeah those people aren't playing tank DK they're a stam stick wall with parse brain trying to be a DPS as a tank. Real tanks aren't playing like that. The 4.3 patch boosts individual DPS by almost 20% (Which is why many private servers applied a DPS dampening to put content to the proper balance point) So fights are getting zerged 'before the healer ooms' So they are putting their survival 100% on you so they can play parse monkey. It's a pretty asinine mind set really.
@@paulread7464haste DK out heals mastery DK if played properly. The problem is it’s significantly worse than mastery if played incorrectly.
Blizzard is too dumb to make changes though.. Remember the feral druid changes in wrath?
U shoul watch frenzy regen more deep because in ds 4 set with that will get to op XD
what's the difference between cata and a steaming pile?
idk balancing classic just feels bad to me leave it how it was
RDF needs to be Xrealm/region.. queues in OCE ttake FOREVEERRRRRRRRRRRR
Its too late to "fix" tanking. I switched to DK early Cata and sat my pally and warrior. Why bother at this point. Plus I dont trust blizz not to fuck up something else
Who cares, its rehashed old content that doesnt really matter anymore. If you can only enjoy nostalgia, then enjoy the OP of certain classes and stop moaning about it
Pvp would be crazy
so you just want to make tanks busted like they are in mop
Yeah I feel that is the wrong approach
Only problem is that mastery only works for DK in cata. Make mastery more valuable for others and that's it
Why are we keep asking for changes to classes that never happened in original cata? Can ee try and play it as authentic as possible why we keep asking for more changes?
Your DK Tank only does 30k dps? what a baby 🤭
Can I pet that dawg 😍
No problem here!
No need to look Blizzard!
Ignore Scottie!
I definitely don’t main BDK.
@@majorbones251 I completely agree with you
Also, I'm not a blood dk main
STOP.TURNING.TANKS.IN.DISC PRIESTS. We don’t want no absorbs on port wars. We want ctc
Laughs in 10 man with a prot war main tank
10 brave men or women absolutely impervious to cringe
/salute
Yeah pls just bring back prot pall strong like at wotlk 😭😭😭
Some idea how to boost enha shamans?
HOLY FUDGE YOU JUST BECAME MY FAVORITE WOW DUDE, All I was thinking when the video started is, "he's gonna say to nerf DKs" and all I was thinking is nerf=feelsbadman / buff=goodfeelsdude.
Make other tanks great again?
we want TWW content 😢
IT'S THE DAMN MATH. Blizzards lazy asses can't be bothered to fix the mastery math. I canceled my sub.
@blizzard so this
prot pally and prot warrior are both simple and only require 1 thing, I've commented before on this channel and the only reply was someone saying it would make them broken. Just add an absorb shield based on damage blocked. The whole point of shield tanks is to block damage but neither get any meaningful absorb shields. Warriors have crit block but less cooldowns than prot warrior so it would still be balanced. Say you have 40% mastery, Say you block 50k damage from a hit, 40% of 50k is 20k, adds a 20k absorb shield. Puts them on par with BDK and we can see people playing tank classes they prefer rather than "NEEDING" a BDK. Cause lets face it, you can do all content with any tank but the class of player in classic is lower than original live and they need more hand holding however bringing other tanks up to par is better than nerfing BDK.
Everyone want to just whine about stupid shit. Please nerf this. Then they do and they want something else nerfed or buffed. Boo hoo some more. You will never be happy.