They should do themed arenas. Like, "this week in arena, you are guaranteed to get 15 legendary choices." ... "This week in arena, the only sets will be Naxrammus and Grand Tournament." Or, "Only cards with battlecries." Even if they only did this a few days out of the month, it would inject a lot of excitement into Arena.
Some balance in arena drafts would help a lot -- maybe guarantee X amount of rare, X amount of epics, X amount of legendaries in each draft. Doesn't mean they'll be GOOD cards (you'll have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages) but at least you won't be going 0-3 against decks pulling out Dr. Boom or Ragnaros or Deathwing when you weren't offered a single legendary. Maybe give more weight to class cards than to neutrals in the draft as well. For example, Turn 10 in the draft will always be a legendary, turns 9 and 18 will always be epic, turns 4, 8, 12, 16 will always be a rare, or some combination thereof.
I was thinking kind of an arena brawl might be interesting. Not Heroic Brawl, but one where you are given choices. A fun one would be a points based boss brawl. Both players fight the boss instead of each other. As long as the boss is defeated, you both win a point, but the person that scores the killing blow gets a second point. 3 losses and out, 12 wins and you get your arena completion, but extra prizes for 20+ points. The best part about that is there are plenty of bosses to choose from to include. They don't have to be the same one each time and could even ladder.
Or you can pick 7-10 cards for your deck but the rest of the deck you have to draft. So you can build like a N'zoth core but the rest of your deck is random draft selection.
That feels like it could be easily exploited. Draft an arena deck one week when there's a particularly good expansion and then play it next week when there's a crappier expansion and everyone's decks are worse.
as Shapookya said, once new expansion rotates in your deck is retired. This helps eliminate stream snipers as well who save op decks to play against streamers
Honestly, rank 20 is the new rank 17. I remember feeling so accomplished when I first got to rank 15, and now I just feel happy when I actually manage a win streak at all...
Game got so boring to me, no variety on the ladder, game just became trash tbh. The most fun I have is when a new expansion comes out and even then grinding gold for packs is so tiresome.
Aggro warrior destroyed my interest in ranked until the next rotation, it's just no fun playing when so many games are already firmly decided by turn 4. Aggro decks have always been frustrating to play against (because so often they come down to how lucky you get on the mulligan) but this one is blatantly too powerful for how easy it is to play and so incredibly uninteractive.
Rarely is there a 49 minute video that is worth watching in its entirety on TH-cam. Congrats Kibler on putting this together. Full of great ideas and you explore all of those ideas thoroughly and intelligently.
As an Arena player (and a dedicated MTG drafter), Arena should be fixed in the two following ways: 1. Allow players to draft 40 or more cards and then build a deck using those cards. 2. Build either a custom Arena cardlist or print more than 100 cards in each expansion allowing them to build an Arena format around each expansion. Currently there aren't enough cards in any single (or even two) expansions to sustain a competitive Arena format. Arena needs to be supported from the ground up at the set design level.
The Pirate meta made me quit. I'm tired of it. Patches and small time in every deck that can afford it giving it a huge advantage, I'm done until that changes
OneBigBugga I built a C'Thun priest deck recently and pirate decks aren't really a problem for me. Also I've spent no money on this game so if you're new just buy an old gods pack you get cthun and a two cards for the deck free, I was not aware of that when I started but the deck is pretty good against everything but jade druid and midrange aggro shamen.
this whole meta has kinda made me lose interest. Reno decks are pretty fun but control warrior is whats kept me playing this long and I don't like any of the control warrior decks right now and classic control warrior is weak to basically everything atm
Played MTG for a long time and now Hearthstone (since launch). The most fun I have playing Hearthstone now is the first 2 weeks when an expansion comes out, almost everyone tries new cards and decks in standard ranked/casual and it's new and exciting. Then after 2 weeks everyone netdecks and we see the same cards and mostly classic overpowered cards as usual. Then I barely play until next expansion. I completely agree that a lot of classic cards should be nerfed,removed from standard or a complete overhaul of classic cards because I don't think the set rotation is enough to freshen up the meta (it's gonna help a little bit for sure).
I never said it wasn't challenging, it's like Kibler says @23:20 ``The same play patterns occuring and games ending the same way, it gets repetitive and the whole things that make card games so fantastic it's that they keep changing...`` The whole idea that the classic set never rotates out goes against that.
Amazing video! I stopped watching your gameplay videos for a while now because I'm shifted more towards the competitive side of things atm, but I still find your general insights immensely interesting. I hope to see more videos of this style in the future :)
Brian Kibler random thought: would it maybe be an idea to make swap Patches and Nobart? as in, make Patches the Warrior Legendary and Nobart a neutral Legi? Sorry to bounce the thought straight to you, had to get it out somewhere xD
I've been able to consistently hit rank 4 whenever I want- however I always stop playing around the time I hit it. I don't have 50 more hours of spare time to grind to legend. I get so burned out of hearthstone by the time I hit rank 5 even. Going any further just feels like a chore to keep playing. Thanks for the video Kibler, great work.
100% agree with pretty much every topic he's been saying, from game balance to standard to Wild. Pretty much sums up every grievance and issue I've had the last few months.
Hey Kibler, great video. Curious to hear your thoughts on this idea to improve on Arena's issues. When drafting a deck, you would choose 40 cards. After you would cut 10 cards to make a 30 card list. This could expand the strategy in drafting and promote more continuity between selections.
i like the idea of breaking ranked into segments. ive gotten below rank 5 many times only to immediately get beaten back to rank 8 by the most cancerous decks in the meta.
Sounds like you're upset you can't climb ladder and beat those "cancerous" decks with sub-par decks you play. There's a reason those tier 1 decks are floating at high ranks. Because they're tier 1. That's the point of a ranked system. You aren't supposed to be able to consistently win at high ranks with shit. Putting safety nets in place will launch players playing bad decks higher than they're supposed to be. That's not how a ranked ladder works. TL;DR Get good and play those tier 1 "cancerous" decks or build a deck to counter them.
Yeah, I miss the days I could rocket up the ladder with a deck that nobody knew how to play against. I once got to rank 5 in week 1 of a season (Post LOE meta) by playing beast hunter, because nobody was expecting King Krush to actually be in my deck. Yep, King Krush actually got me wins then.
Beautifully and perfectly stated. Aside from your thoughts on arena (which are interesting), I think you align 100% with my thoughts. The most important thing in my mind is moving things to Wild rather than nerfing them to oblivion. Oldschool Handlock and Oil Rogue deserve to exist somewhere, and Wild is the perfect place for them. I love how you described its potential as a "The Best of Hearthstone" format.
Weapons could be made unable to attack the turn they are played, just like minions. And more expensive weapons like Gorehowl may acquire Charge keyword.
I watched the designer insights video, but somehow I missed their discussion about the thresholds on ladder. I appreciate Kibler recapping their points and adding his own thoughts here.
How would you decide which nerfs to revert for "Wild Of Yesteryear"? (I agree a LOT with the sentiment. I just don't see how this would work). --Which version of Unleash the Hounds do we get? --Wouldn't unnerfed Warsong Commander corner a lot of the Wild meta in an unhealthy way?
Nerfing fiery waraxe would kill warrior as a whole, I'm a die hard control warrior and need that axe in my life. I know pirate warrior is OP, but that axe is SOOO important in pretty much every warrior deck that I love playing so much. I don't know a good way to fix the problem, but I pray that blizzard won't nerf it.
Viktor Falk see, I don't think pirate warrior is necessarily op. Pirate shaman and rogue are though. They should've made either patches or small time warrior only.
steekerfreek, i play dragon priest(tried dragon pala) and the wars 60% of time wins by turn 5, I cannot even use my dragon potion. Of course after turn 6 I win, but this only if I get extremely lucky with the draw or they do not have the odds on their side. My xp with rougs and shamies is that they are more easilly controlable. it is not normal every third game to be vs pirate war.
Not sure if i can agree with Kibler in everything about removing cards from the classic set, for FTP players, get new cards it´s way more hard. Kibler and the pro players have the new set in a few days, so they don´t have the problem about not having cards to play, for us, having some "sure" cards it´s key to craft and play.
I think if they removed cards, they would give you a full refund. They've talked about that on reddit. Well, if they don't, many will quit. I am genuenly interested in this idea, because I aggree with Kibler on refreshing the meta by removing all-time-staple cards from the game. Plus, I would get the 1600 dust refund for Malygos, whom I crafted in a high as fuck night.
But, ok, the refund is good but is clearly not enought, i mean, less than a year ago Blizzard said "they will be a classic set forever" so new players (like me) put all his effort on that safe zone, and now, they are thinking about change it. THAT, is a huge inconsistency.
i crafted mukala tyrant of the vale...and those add a paladin card to ur hand cards... needless to say i was an idiot the pally card...cards got dusted and im stuck with a card thats effectively worthless atm
Kibler, insightful as always. I want to ask you, if you think pirate package is powerful and require only 3~5 cards to put in any deck. What do you think about the Kazakus package (3 cards)?
Enough players to queue up in under 10 seconds in average is no player base, news to me. What a reductive way of thinking, if somethings not as big as hearthstone its not even worth talking about
Duelyst has a very decent playerbase, never have to wait to find opponents. There would be interesting topics, like balance in Gauntlet, and the latest expansion power creep (especially non interactive decks)
i love this kind of video. you just taking an analytical look at the game, giving input, possible solutions and sort of brainstorming ideas. its really interesting to listen too.
i really like the idea of reverting the classic nerfs and rotating them out, because at the very least it'd give meaning to wild, because right now it's the kids playground really, you go there when you're sick of piracy being legal. i honestly keep forgetting wild even exists because it isn't "wild" it's the ruins of cards people usually disenchant now to get more essence for patches.
Kibler, I'm not sure if you will answer this, but what is your opinion of the Aether Revolt and do you think it is one of the best sets in a while? I know this is a hearthstone channel, but I also know you play at all the pro tours and I'm not sure what the pro opinion is on this set.
I really enjoy these type of videos you make. Your opinions are well thought out and provide interesting discussion unlike some other youtuber's videos.
You do realize that when that happens, a brand new expansion will come out? Making blanket statements about a future meta involving cards that haven't been announced yet, just makes you look dumb.
There are plenty of tools FROM MSoG that push a handlock archtype, i was predicting for the rotation, im aware new cards will be printed but i was making a prediction about the handlock archetype taking Reno's place whether its a teir 1 deck or not.
Exceptional video. I know this will get buried in the comments, but I want to know your opinion in a possible second pass for arena draft: once you select all your cards, you can review your choices and make (some?) adjustment to it. Let's say I skip a beast synergy card because I think I won't get any, but 10 picks later this happens to not to be the case, I can now pick for beast synergy AND later change that choice to better define my arena deck.
Brian Kibler do you see any possibility of cards in the future with affects such as "The next time your opponent plays a weapon, reduce it's durability by 1"? Not saying that would fix the weapons issue, but I could see it being a preventative step people could take rather than being reactionary
Could arena work in sets? For example when you pay the entrance, you gain the choice to choose any set, like gadjetzan or Goblins vs Gnobes and draft only that. To raise the pool, commons could be in every pool. I just don't know how the adventures could be implemented tough...
Sirbananajack to be fair it was the most balanced OP deck ever in the game. it's win rate overall was mostly negative because it took a lot of skill and knowledge to pilot correctly.
The problem is when they take out a lot of good classic cards then for the people who don't have 150 euro to spend each few months or can play the game all day there is nothing to rely on anymore.
I agree with you on basically everything that you said in this video! Good job explaining everything. My only disagreement is with arena. I personally find arena to be the most fun aspect of Hearthstone and always have. I love some of the nutty, wild, and unpredictable things that can happen. And I think that making it Standard removes some of that. If it has to change, I think that the best way to make things change would be per season to choose a certain selection of sets available for the draft for that month. For instance having only GvG and WotG available to draft for a month. It wouldn't have to stay at only two either. Even that aspect could change per season. This allows for a smaller pool of cards and some crazy things to still happen. The only downside that I can see with this is when a held draft got carried over the end of season. What are your thoughts on a rotation like that?
On Arena going Standard. You can roughly divide the game's player base into three groups. 1. Old Constructed players who never got into Arena. These won't play the new Arena either. Time has made it clear that the Arena format is not what they're looking for in Hearthstone. 2. Old (infinite) Arena players who switched at some point in the past and stayed. The fact that Arena has all the collectible cards is *the* reason these people are still playing Hearthstone. It's not even the free expansion of your collection that's driving them anymore. Making Arena Standard, thus introducing *a lot* of staleness into it, will most likely drive the vast majority of these players away. Not away from Arena, but from the game entirely. 3. Future and new players. To these, Arena will simply be an expensive, less consistent and weird Constructed. This change will kill the format. Mark my word, one day, Wild will become completely barren and die, making all the old cards (with Arena now being Standard) effectively disappear as if they never existed. I love you and respect you, Brian. But you're not thinking like an Arena player.
Semyon Galtsev I agree. Making Arena standard makes it less interesting in the long run and doesn't necessarily make it more balanced. Actually balancing around certain cards like Blizzard is doing now is a much better approach. Blizzard could be doing much more though and arena would be more fun in general if they played more with the format. Something like Grand Tournament week with a crazy bonus pick rate on TGT cards for example, which would suddenly make specific synergies like inspire, much more powerful. I respect Kibler a lot, but his views on arena in general seems pretty outdated. As evident by his thinking a card like Chillwing Yeti is still one of the best cards in arena, even though it has become a lot more mediocre over the course of the last year.
Semyon Galtsev I also play a lot of arena and I like his ideas. Those players don't play arena because they want to use all wild cards (they still do it in kiblers version but in a smaller card pool). I think they're playing it because they don't want to play refined decks. Changing the whole card pool every few months is amazing. Some cards might shine in a certain period. Heartharena might not be able to calculate the power of certain cards because they need time to really understand the synergistic power of a card and your deck. And they need to adjust it every period. Btw Kibler doesn't want to move arena to standard. He just noticed that a smaller card pool is better. Standard arena is better than wild arena but still not enjoyable for him.
Just an idea/suggestion: Divide the classes into 3 "subtypes". Example: Rogue into assassination/ outlaw/ subtlety. Add backstab/ prep/ evis etc. to the basic rogue pool and give each subtype new cards that are unique only to that subtype. An outlaw card cannot be used by a subtlety type but backstab is available to both and so on.
I'e actually just had a really good idea for Arena... okay, so basically on top of the things you mentioned... Why don't they simply have like a reverse mulligan at the end of your 30 card selection. Where after you have build your deck and it flashes up on screen, it allows you to change up to 3 cards. That way - any cards which you chose that didn't synergize the way you had planned, or any you chose by mistake can be swapped out with one final change. Then you confirm your deck and its ready to go. Additionally, it could tell you that the cards changed will be changed for same mana cards or for same type cards... I.E, Spell, Weapon, Minion. This seems like it would work...
You know the meta is borked when all the "highlight" channels aren't really posting much. Because their aren't any interesting moments to show in the meta right now. Trolden, Rage Orc, etc.
Kibler from a MTG background, surely you see why the 'jade' decks are bad for the format, can we not remember pack rat? although its not completely the same as pack rat the general idea of it is the same. JUST REMOVE JADE GOLEMS
+RsCrowd They are totally different. Pack Rat was a single card that ensured the game played out identically from that point on and caused future draws to be irrelevant. Jade decks can play out very dynamically because they rely on individual cards, not a single engine.
i tried to find a card that was similar to the jade mechanic in MTG that also had as much of an impact, and i completely understand how pack rat was just a 1 card win condition in certain cases, but there being this Jade mechanic that in a way is similar to the idea of control decks using buccaneer, a deck that can go full aggro and then be able to play a 9/9 on turn 10 imo makes control warrior unplayable in ladder. what do you think?
RsCrowd what I don't like about Jade Golems is that they totally crush Control/Fatigue decks. There is absolutely no chance of winning when they have Minions from 1/1 up to like 14/14. Might as well concede at the start.
In my opinion it would be cool when you play Arena you first pick your class and then you pick your Cardpool set. For Example you can choose between: Warlock-Hunter-Mage and after that you can choose your (3 random pools) Cardpool: (Classic-GvG)-(Classic-TGT)-(Classic-WotOG) what do you guys think?
The only concept I disagree is this premonition of "making it to Legend". As a casual player myself that only plays 2-3 games a given day I could give a shit about making Legend, the ACTUAL issue here comes down to the fact that the only way players are successful is extreme agro decks like Pirate or running the opposite, Renolock or Priest control-- the other classes and any mid tier design just gets absolutely shitted on. Sure, lets say with the top Tier 1 decks you can make it to high rank or Legend on ladder with the effort, but if you want to use Tier 2-3 decks you'd think you could at least have moderate success right? Nope, to even ATTEMPT any other mid range variant you will lose 95% of the time with almost no chance of winning. Want to go late game that isn't RenoLock or Jade? You'll lose. Want to mid range as anything against any Pirate? You'll lose. There's no chance at even "some" success if you don't go with the flow, that's why the meta is f'd up. Compare it to MTG Legacy where there's a lot of Tier 1 Decks To Beat, but even if you don't pick those you can always pick Armageddon Stax, Goblins, Deadguy, etc. and get a fair amount of success, that's how this game should be but it isn't.
You're exaggerating. Even a deck like Zoolock can climb the ladder; I'm not sure how far, but it's certainly not going to be stuck at 20. The meta generally isn't all that refined until Legend (or close to it) where all of the competition will be playing the best decks.
It's actually the opposite, the meta is incredibly refined till you get to Legend, it's all Pirate or Priest Control with some Renolock, then ppl actually experiment with other types 'cause they already made it and it doesn't matter. The problem with going Zoo is that it violates the #1 deck building concept which is don't make a deck that's strictly worse than another... pirate warrior and pirate shaman agro can not only win faster but their less vulnerable to hate spells, I've played Zoo but by the time you hit even rank 12 you'll start losing over and over again.
And I just want to throw in that I don't even "refined" is a good term to use about climbing the ladder. In terms of just ranking up, there's certain decks like Pirate that have a 50% chance against the meta of just flat out winning (kind of like 'Burn' in MTG) and the opponent really having little to no counterplay, the other 50% chance its a Reno or very defensive deck or mirror match its still a Toss Up they they could win, so your almost guaranteed in your games you'll be above 500. If you try any other midrange or experimental combo archetype, your not only not guaranteed to beat the rush down pirate dcks but your not even guaranteed you'll beat any Reno control, and in your example of using ZooLock you'll not only lose to the better agro but also have a good chance of losing to the control decks with Dragonfire etc. There's a very huge gap in Hearthstone because the game is too Polar right now, agro is simply too good at what it does killing by turn 4-5 and control decks like Priest and RenoLock are too good at inevitably destroying anything else.
I love your "rants" Kibler, it's been quite a while since you did one of those..I really enjoy them and I'm glad this one was long..keep making them please :)
Spot on with the early game weapons and STB. You want to play early game weapons not matter the archetype, but the difference between undertaker/murloc tide hunter/cogmaster is that you have to devote a significant portion of your deck to maintain that synergy. That synergy may or may not be to strong, but one that is clear is that early game weapons possess no disadvantage.
I really love your over-arching perspective and focus on how long the cards will remain in play. I think your strongest point was when you said that you should un-nerf old cards and throw them, along with big "moment-defining" cards like Ragnaros and Auctioneer, into Wild. The identity and nostalgia would be sick!
None of this addresses at all the biggest problem for new players which is getting a decent fucking collection to get passed rank 20. The proposed ladder support only helps people not derank, but what about the new players that can't even rank up? I'm speaking in a legend player's perspective. If anyone knows about Kripp and his F2P account, he has a decent collection of cards there (way more than a new player) AND he has insane game knowledge and experience, but he was struggling at rank 18 standard ladder. A fresh newbie is gonna struggle to even get to rank 20 to get a fucking card back that does fuck all. Hearthstone is going to die off after all the veteran players get tired of all this bullshit, because there will never be enough new players to replace them and actually be able to play at a competitive level without shelling out $500+ worth of packs and adventures.
Great video! I share many of your ideas, the meta needs a refreshment, I really hope Blizzard could consider your ideas. I have a question for you as a MTG former player, do you think 60-cards decks could work for Hearthstone?
you know why people don't care about wild? it is because of mad scientist, dr.boom, shredders and secret bullshit... They should nerf and balance cards every 2 or 3 months to keep the game fresh
I did not miss your point. I just don't think any of those cards need to be nerfed. Dr. boom might be a good candidate for a nerf but the 7 mana slot is so bad in general. Also, as more and more cards are released, the decks become more about synergy then strongly stated value based minions. Most decks that run Dr. Boom are gimmicky decks at this point that need to fall back on a good 5-6-7 curve if drawn poorly.
@lobsterfork I think Dr. Boom would still be played in most of the decks right now! It was the most obscene high vcost card ever printed in the game, would be a staple in any reno deck and sure find its place in some of the midrangy decks like the dragon pirate warrior
Agree about the power level of 'forever-Legendaries' like Rag and Sylv creating a stale meta. A lot of people forget that prior to GVG, Rag and Sylv were the most played neutral legendaries -- to the point it was feeling stale BACK THEN. What pushed them out of the meta wasn't a lack of power. It was one card -- Dr. Boom. Mainly because, Dr. Boom was on their powerlevel, but also helped to counter them. Which forced those previously stale Legendaries out of the meta. This was a GOOD thing! Fast forward to standard and Boom rotating out -- all of a sudden we see their return (the BGH nerf helped too). And as anyone who is a Hearthstone fan noticed, last year's Blizzcon had MANY, MANY matches decided by Rag flips. Oh, good old stale Rag flips determining "skill." Blizzard has been so gunshy about making Legendaries on the powerlevel of Dr. Boom that they have made some very weak neutral Legendaries ever since (with the exception of the Old Gods--which are a bit of a separate case). The thing is -- with the standard format -- Blizzard has EVERY REASON to create strong Neutral Legendaries that are on par with Dr. Boom, Rag, and Sylv powerlevels. They want the expansions to feel fresh and new -- which giving them new strong cards (mid-late game cards) would accomplish. They also wouldn't have to worry about the Dr. Boom problem, because these cards would rotate. You'd allow for enough design space that Sylv and Rag could exist as 'forever-Legendaries,' but also be able to give players new powerful neutrals with the new set -- instead of Boogeyman. Other side issues to Blizzard not utilizing Standard: 1) The past year of Standard, it felt like Blizzard overly punished strong classes using strategies they didn't like without replacing said classes ability to have a competitive strategy. Hunter and Pali were the embodiment of this. 2) The reverse is also true. The strength of Shaman is largely because it had cards created to counter Shielded Minibot. Totem Golem and Tunnel Trogg are remnants in response to a meta that was at a certain powerlevel. When Standard stripped away most classes early game, yet left these, Shaman dominated. (As did Dragon Warrior--which Alex's Champ is also a remnant from that much stronger early game). Simply put -- Standard is a good idea. If Blizz actually used it to the formats potential. You wouldn't need to rotate strong core cards, if they just put cards of comparable powerlevel in their newer expansions. This is something they've failed miserably on.
Ok, so on what extent what would the nerfs be reversed like back to pyro blast being 8 mana or just things like blade flurry and outher whispers of the old gods nerfs reversed?
do we have any dates yet when TGT & LoE will only be playable in Wild decks ? i also think that something needs to do about the Jade druids deck. it isnt competible compare to the other Gadgetzan decks.
If you were to ask me, the easy solution to fixing arena's ever growing card pool problem, is that you could choose your arena pool block before choosing your class. Like, choose from naxrammus, gvg, league of explorers, kharazan, etc., and the only cards you can draft are from standard and the one or two expansions you choose. In that way you can make it similar to drafting from a particular set in magic the gathering sealed tournaments. Then, you only play against players who are in the same block as you. Card pools become satisfactorily limited, nostalgia factors are intact, people can avoid cards they feel are unfair ( firelands portal or piloted shredder, reno, what have you) and therefore enjoy the experience more.
got your point and i think its a very interessting idea to rotate too powerful cards out of the classic set, and just keeping the definding cards for each class. I would surrely not miss Rag, just because the card is too good whenever midrange is available.
Here's an interesting thought to change the mechanics on weapons. When you equip a weapon, your hero must always attack first before your minions. If your opponent has creatures, your hero must always attack minions first before going face. If there are no minions, you just automatically attack face. I understand that this is a bit of a stretch, but it is a thought. Maybe a better idea could branch of from this.
Hello Kibler, what would you think about making the Small-Time Buccaneers text to: "Has +2 Attack while you have a full Durability weapon equipped." It hit the powerlevel of the minion aswell as lowering speed of weapon damage, it create decisions and give higher value to ooze as a counter.
Wow, just sat through the entire video. Didn´t expect that, but I just couldn´t stop. Thoughts on Arena, Standardformat and Smalltime Buckaneer were just too valuable.
So, this has been bothering me a little bit: early on when talking about the Pirate Package, Kibbler mentioned the comparison between Small Time Buccaneer and Cogmaster and then refuted the comparison. I agree with his counter argument, so that's all good. What surprised me, though, is that when he's talking about balancing STB, he didn't go back to the CM analogy and instead preferred to only talk about tweaking stats. Is there a reason why STB still wouldn't be balanced if he read "+2 Attack if you control a Pirate" to mirror CM? Since most of the other Aggro pirates are so easy to kill (Patches, Deckhand, and First Mate all have 1 hp) wouldn't maintaining STB's attack over a few turns be less viable and be more easy to interact with by standard decks, or- alternatively- require a larger pirate package which would make it a less viable addition to decks?
How about fixing the Grimmy goons. Do you think they will release again 3 class cards or is it over? They also need to release something else for single player above the adventures. Grinding the ladder becomes tiring some times. Also I think the rewards for 1 month of grinding are too few
My personal opinion on the small time buccaneer is that it should have +1 with a weapon present, making it a 2/2. Would still be strong, but at least it can't trade up against 2/3's
Andrew Tarnawsky It should be a 2 drop. It's a pirate so it would still see play over huge toad afterall. As it is now a warrior can deal upwards of 24 damage by turn 3 and that's horrid
Loved the video Kibler ! Wish you could touch more on the things they could try from Mtg, playing from graveyards, scry type mechanics, rotation system. I think a draft format of just hero classes would be fun, mix and match! Or two headed dragon would be neat, paying more like normal draft to keep cards you get would be sweet. Do you think Buccaneer & Patches are too strong, or maybe the problem is not enough ways to answer how fast shaman and warrior are ? i.e. Hunter having zero catch up or draw, or fast enough to be a face deck and race them. It even has me trying out Reno Rouge(super fun btw) to soft counter other reno decks and try to have the catch up against aggro.
Possible ways to improve on the pirate problem:-Patches is summoned by south sea captain only-smb is triggered by a weapon with 4 or more attack (upgraded fwa or double poison) this will greatly reduce its power level while keeping it playable- add more neutral heals and low cost aoe cards to some classes- crew "ability": your deck must contain at least 10 pirates for the pirates to enter the battlefield, this will deal with the pirate package being super compact
Thanks for making this video Brian. Excellent commentary, as usual, backed by your experience with other CCGs. I totally agree with pretty much everything you said, especially about the need to change the pool in arena. I never play that format because, as you said, it always feels the same. Making it more of a MTG Cube experience would be WAY more enjoyable/fresh. Keep up the good work!!!
Can you go through the nerfs and point out which ones should be reverted in Wild-only? I think that's a pretty critical part of the entire Wild format.
I love getting into discussion about games almost as much as I enjoy playing them, really enjoyed this video. The arena part perfectly sums up my experience with it (love drafting in MtG and hate Hearthstone arena)
What about choosing your 2 adventures and your 2 expansion sets and this + classic and basic will be your draft pool for Arena? And in game you would be able to see which adventures and expansions your opponent have chosen.
I think a re-roll option might be good for arena. At the end of the draft you can redo say 5 cards so say you went for a synergy and it didn't work you can get rid of it or you can have a couple more goes at getting synergies. In either case people would probably go for synergies more knowing they have a safety net so potential synergy drafts would actually come together
An interesting idea to limit the Arena pool would be to have a shifting card pool. The area could work from a card pool that partially changes each week; Have Standard and the latest expansion be a constant available card pool and have 1-2 adventures or expansions be randomly selected each week to be the addition to the card pool.
So you suggest that they make force of nature combo and auctioneer op again in wild , and just see those op decks over and over again until i wish i was against pirate warrior ? Don't get me wrong . I would love to see my golden force of nature and savage roar combo work again ( btw it was my favorite deck and the one i wished to draft one day when i started hearthstone for the first time ) but i believe that making this kind of thing available to everyone will just make the wild ladder filled with the 2-3 most op decks of all time and nothing else .
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They should do themed arenas. Like, "this week in arena, you are guaranteed to get 15 legendary choices." ... "This week in arena, the only sets will be Naxrammus and Grand Tournament." Or, "Only cards with battlecries." Even if they only did this a few days out of the month, it would inject a lot of excitement into Arena.
Some balance in arena drafts would help a lot -- maybe guarantee X amount of rare, X amount of epics, X amount of legendaries in each draft. Doesn't mean they'll be GOOD cards (you'll have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages) but at least you won't be going 0-3 against decks pulling out Dr. Boom or Ragnaros or Deathwing when you weren't offered a single legendary. Maybe give more weight to class cards than to neutrals in the draft as well. For example, Turn 10 in the draft will always be a legendary, turns 9 and 18 will always be epic, turns 4, 8, 12, 16 will always be a rare, or some combination thereof.
I was thinking kind of an arena brawl might be interesting. Not Heroic Brawl, but one where you are given choices. A fun one would be a points based boss brawl. Both players fight the boss instead of each other. As long as the boss is defeated, you both win a point, but the person that scores the killing blow gets a second point. 3 losses and out, 12 wins and you get your arena completion, but extra prizes for 20+ points.
The best part about that is there are plenty of bosses to choose from to include. They don't have to be the same one each time and could even ladder.
Or you can pick 7-10 cards for your deck but the rest of the deck you have to draft. So you can build like a N'zoth core but the rest of your deck is random draft selection.
Not to mention you'd have to make sure you didn't have a run in progress during the weekly reset.
And at the end of week? They would have to delete your deck if you haven't finished your run. It wouldn't work.
Maybe arena can rotate which expansion it adds in addition to the classic set every week or so?
That feels like it could be easily exploited. Draft an arena deck one week when there's a particularly good expansion and then play it next week when there's a crappier expansion and everyone's decks are worse.
you were to slow in my opinion...
easy fix: new week = new rotation = you have to make a new deck if you still have an old one
you forgot to add the timing
as Shapookya said, once new expansion rotates in your deck is retired. This helps eliminate stream snipers as well who save op decks to play against streamers
That giant Shiro face scares me...
Andriy Yarych you are not alone friend :O
Rank anxiety so thats why im terrified to play past rank 17 :D
Darko Mihajlovski same with me...
You guys can safely continue laddering. You will get your highest rank chest at the end of the month. :D
Oh shit there's that, god damn I'm stupid, I got to rank 15 and am still playing casual for quests lmao
Honestly, rank 20 is the new rank 17. I remember feeling so accomplished when I first got to rank 15, and now I just feel happy when I actually manage a win streak at all...
Joe Homer literally the embodiment of how my rank latter works
Game got so boring to me, no variety on the ladder, game just became trash tbh. The most fun I have is when a new expansion comes out and even then grinding gold for packs is so tiresome.
tomzicare It's always been like this after an expansion comes out. But this meta offers a lot more competitive decks than the previous one though.
Aggro warrior destroyed my interest in ranked until the next rotation, it's just no fun playing when so many games are already firmly decided by turn 4. Aggro decks have always been frustrating to play against (because so often they come down to how lucky you get on the mulligan) but this one is blatantly too powerful for how easy it is to play and so incredibly uninteractive.
No variance? I think you mean no variety, because there's a shit ton of variance.
Battenberg91 Aggro warrior is easy to beat...
More =/= better. Name more than 2 of the meta decks that you like to play against.
Rarely is there a 49 minute video that is worth watching in its entirety on TH-cam. Congrats Kibler on putting this together. Full of great ideas and you explore all of those ideas thoroughly and intelligently.
As an Arena player (and a dedicated MTG drafter), Arena should be fixed in the two following ways:
1. Allow players to draft 40 or more cards and then build a deck using those cards.
2. Build either a custom Arena cardlist or print more than 100 cards in each expansion allowing them to build an Arena format around each expansion. Currently there aren't enough cards in any single (or even two) expansions to sustain a competitive Arena format. Arena needs to be supported from the ground up at the set design level.
And this is why Kibler has helped work on card games before
The Pirate meta made me quit. I'm tired of it. Patches and small time in every deck that can afford it giving it a huge advantage, I'm done until that changes
I just play enough to complete daily quest every day.
OneBigBugga same here , I just do the daily quests ,hearthstone is not fun anymore, that's why I play elder scrolls legends more.
OneBigBugga I built a C'Thun priest deck recently and pirate decks aren't really a problem for me. Also I've spent no money on this game so if you're new just buy an old gods pack you get cthun and a two cards for the deck free, I was not aware of that when I started but the deck is pretty good against everything but jade druid and midrange aggro shamen.
this whole meta has kinda made me lose interest. Reno decks are pretty fun but control warrior is whats kept me playing this long and I don't like any of the control warrior decks right now and classic control warrior is weak to basically everything atm
Joe Dirt Yeah unless you use those brawls perfect the jade army will eat u up
Played MTG for a long time and now Hearthstone (since launch).
The most fun I have playing Hearthstone now is the first 2 weeks when an expansion comes out, almost everyone tries new cards and decks in standard ranked/casual and it's new and exciting. Then after 2 weeks everyone netdecks and we see the same cards and mostly classic overpowered cards as usual. Then I barely play until next expansion.
I completely agree that a lot of classic cards should be nerfed,removed from standard or a complete overhaul of classic cards because I don't think the set rotation is enough to freshen up the meta (it's gonna help a little bit for sure).
I never said it wasn't challenging, it's like Kibler says @23:20 ``The same play patterns occuring and games ending the same way, it gets repetitive and the whole things that make card games so fantastic it's that they keep changing...``
The whole idea that the classic set never rotates out goes against that.
This is exactly the type of content I want to see from you kibler. Please keep this up! Thanks!
Amazing video! I stopped watching your gameplay videos for a while now because I'm shifted more towards the competitive side of things atm, but I still find your general insights immensely interesting. I hope to see more videos of this style in the future :)
I want a hearthstone box, where can I get one?
In the Blizzard Gear store: gear.blizzard.com/hearthstone-collectible-keepsake-box
Thank you :)
Brian Kibler random thought: would it maybe be an idea to make swap Patches and Nobart? as in, make Patches the Warrior Legendary and Nobart a neutral Legi? Sorry to bounce the thought straight to you, had to get it out somewhere xD
Small Time Bucc and too many cheap weapons is the problem not really patches
lol i just laughed at the price, well till never Blizzard!
I've been able to consistently hit rank 4 whenever I want- however I always stop playing around the time I hit it. I don't have 50 more hours of spare time to grind to legend. I get so burned out of hearthstone by the time I hit rank 5 even. Going any further just feels like a chore to keep playing. Thanks for the video Kibler, great work.
100% agree with pretty much every topic he's been saying, from game balance to standard to Wild. Pretty much sums up every grievance and issue I've had the last few months.
Hey Kibler, great video. Curious to hear your thoughts on this idea to improve on Arena's issues.
When drafting a deck, you would choose 40 cards. After you would cut 10 cards to make a 30 card list. This could expand the strategy in drafting and promote more continuity between selections.
i like the idea of breaking ranked into segments. ive gotten below rank 5 many times only to immediately get beaten back to rank 8 by the most cancerous decks in the meta.
The only way to beat cancer is to become an even worse cancer yourself
NeuroticLobster yeah, thats part of the problem.
You just suck get good
Sounds like you're upset you can't climb ladder and beat those "cancerous" decks with sub-par decks you play. There's a reason those tier 1 decks are floating at high ranks. Because they're tier 1. That's the point of a ranked system. You aren't supposed to be able to consistently win at high ranks with shit. Putting safety nets in place will launch players playing bad decks higher than they're supposed to be. That's not how a ranked ladder works.
TL;DR Get good and play those tier 1 "cancerous" decks or build a deck to counter them.
Yeah, I miss the days I could rocket up the ladder with a deck that nobody knew how to play against. I once got to rank 5 in week 1 of a season (Post LOE meta) by playing beast hunter, because nobody was expecting King Krush to actually be in my deck. Yep, King Krush actually got me wins then.
Having a real Magic OG is such a great asset. Kibler just brings so much more knowledge and experience than anyone else on the scene.
The climb to legend is such a tedious grind
Beautifully and perfectly stated. Aside from your thoughts on arena (which are interesting), I think you align 100% with my thoughts. The most important thing in my mind is moving things to Wild rather than nerfing them to oblivion. Oldschool Handlock and Oil Rogue deserve to exist somewhere, and Wild is the perfect place for them. I love how you described its potential as a "The Best of Hearthstone" format.
Weapons could be made unable to attack the turn they are played, just like minions. And more expensive weapons like Gorehowl may acquire Charge keyword.
I watched the designer insights video, but somehow I missed their discussion about the thresholds on ladder. I appreciate Kibler recapping their points and adding his own thoughts here.
Holy Sh*t! is that a Hearthstone box?
There are some people who make and sell them on Etsy.
Yea, he won it from Challengestone 2016.
He won that in the ChallenStone 2016.
Blizz store, they're expensive af tho gear.blizzard.com/hearthstone-collectible-keepsake-box
Brian beat the living shit out of the Firebat and got that box for it.
How would you decide which nerfs to revert for "Wild Of Yesteryear"? (I agree a LOT with the sentiment. I just don't see how this would work).
--Which version of Unleash the Hounds do we get?
--Wouldn't unnerfed Warsong Commander corner a lot of the Wild meta in an unhealthy way?
Interesting view kibler, I look forward to this year with your wisdom at my side
Glad you made this video Brian. Big content creators have much more influence on the game's direction than most would be led to believe.
Nerfing fiery waraxe would kill warrior as a whole, I'm a die hard control warrior and need that axe in my life. I know pirate warrior is OP, but that axe is SOOO important in pretty much every warrior deck that I love playing so much. I don't know a good way to fix the problem, but I pray that blizzard won't nerf it.
Viktor Falk I dont think raising the mana cost on a card really hits control warrior too hard.
An unbuffable war axe won't make a difference
SulfuricDrake have fun waiting an extra turn to deal with those aggressive minions :p
Viktor Falk see, I don't think pirate warrior is necessarily op. Pirate shaman and rogue are though. They should've made either patches or small time warrior only.
steekerfreek, i play dragon priest(tried dragon pala) and the wars 60% of time wins by turn 5, I cannot even use my dragon potion. Of course after turn 6 I win, but this only if I get extremely lucky with the draw or they do not have the odds on their side. My xp with rougs and shamies is that they are more easilly controlable. it is not normal every third game to be vs pirate war.
A very solid review, thanks for all your time and effort Brian.
Not sure if i can agree with Kibler in everything about removing cards from the classic set, for FTP players, get new cards it´s way more hard. Kibler and the pro players have the new set in a few days, so they don´t have the problem about not having cards to play, for us, having some "sure" cards it´s key to craft and play.
I think if they removed cards, they would give you a full refund. They've talked about that on reddit. Well, if they don't, many will quit.
I am genuenly interested in this idea, because I aggree with Kibler on refreshing the meta by removing all-time-staple cards from the game. Plus, I would get the 1600 dust refund for Malygos, whom I crafted in a high as fuck night.
But, ok, the refund is good but is clearly not enought, i mean, less than a year ago Blizzard said "they will be a classic set forever" so new players (like me) put all his effort on that safe zone, and now, they are thinking about change it. THAT, is a huge inconsistency.
i crafted mukala tyrant of the vale...and those add a paladin card to ur hand cards... needless to say i was an idiot the pally card...cards got dusted and im stuck with a card thats effectively worthless atm
this is why I'm quitting the game, i can't trust the developers if they break their promises
if they remove cards from calssic, they better give us full disenchant value
Kibler, insightful as always. I want to ask you, if you think pirate package is powerful and require only 3~5 cards to put in any deck. What do you think about the Kazakus package (3 cards)?
could you do a similar about Duelyst?
I think it would probably be a pretty short video, duelyst is in a pretty good spot at the moment
no playerbase no problems
Enough players to queue up in under 10 seconds in average is no player base, news to me.
What a reductive way of thinking, if somethings not as big as hearthstone its not even worth talking about
Duelyst has a very decent playerbase, never have to wait to find opponents.
There would be interesting topics, like balance in Gauntlet, and the latest expansion power creep (especially non interactive decks)
Mind explaining why the quest system is atrocious
i love this kind of video. you just taking an analytical look at the game, giving input, possible solutions and sort of brainstorming ideas. its really interesting to listen too.
i really like the idea of reverting the classic nerfs and rotating them out, because at the very least it'd give meaning to wild, because right now it's the kids playground really, you go there when you're sick of piracy being legal. i honestly keep forgetting wild even exists because it isn't "wild" it's the ruins of cards people usually disenchant now to get more essence for patches.
I could listen to you talk about Hearthstone for days. Keep these videos up, man. Very informative.
Kibler for hearthstone lead designer 2017
Kibler, I'm not sure if you will answer this, but what is your opinion of the Aether Revolt and do you think it is one of the best sets in a while? I know this is a hearthstone channel, but I also know you play at all the pro tours and I'm not sure what the pro opinion is on this set.
"Today I wanted to do a little video..."
By what measure is 50 minutes "little"?! XD
Dr Rainbows the Unicorn hahahaha
I really enjoy these type of videos you make. Your opinions are well thought out and provide interesting discussion unlike some other youtuber's videos.
Renolock once reno is out will change into handlock
Bk Big Fish I hope Handlock gets support
You do realize that when that happens, a brand new expansion will come out? Making blanket statements about a future meta involving cards that haven't been announced yet, just makes you look dumb.
Once reno is gone, a ton of burn spells will be gone as well as emperor.
There are plenty of tools FROM MSoG that push a handlock archtype, i was predicting for the rotation, im aware new cards will be printed but i was making a prediction about the handlock archetype taking Reno's place whether its a teir 1 deck or not.
Bk Big Fish A random prediction still makes you look dumb.
Exceptional video. I know this will get buried in the comments, but I want to know your opinion in a possible second pass for arena draft: once you select all your cards, you can review your choices and make (some?) adjustment to it. Let's say I skip a beast synergy card because I think I won't get any, but 10 picks later this happens to not to be the case, I can now pick for beast synergy AND later change that choice to better define my arena deck.
Maybe they should separate arena into wild and standard
Darko Mihajlovski I agree
I don't think they would want to split the player base that much.
Brian Kibler do you see any possibility of cards in the future with affects such as "The next time your opponent plays a weapon, reduce it's durability by 1"? Not saying that would fix the weapons issue, but I could see it being a preventative step people could take rather than being reactionary
You know something is wrong when you coin doomsayer out on turn 1 and they manage to kill it
Could arena work in sets? For example when you pay the entrance, you gain the choice to choose any set, like gadjetzan or Goblins vs Gnobes and draft only that. To raise the pool, commons could be in every pool. I just don't know how the adventures could be implemented tough...
MAKE OLD PATRON AND HANDLOCK GREAT AGAIN
Patron was nerfred because it was ruining the game even at competitive levels , nobody would like it back
Sirbananajack yes it was fun
Sirbananajack to be fair it was the most balanced OP deck ever in the game. it's win rate overall was mostly negative because it took a lot of skill and knowledge to pilot correctly.
Haliel I agree completely, and blade flurry and I guess savage roar force of nature to balance it out
Patron wasn't so bad...
Charging Frothing on the other hand was quite broken (though I suppose it did need a decent amount of set up?)
I always appreciate hearing Kibler's thoughts on the state of the game and ideas for the future!
The problem is when they take out a lot of good classic cards then for the people who don't have 150 euro to spend each few months or can play the game all day there is nothing to rely on anymore.
This video is absolutely perfect. Maybe the best HS video. Good job Bryan.
I want Kibler working in HS balance Team
He would erase all cards except dragons and make all classes dragonic
I agree with you on basically everything that you said in this video! Good job explaining everything. My only disagreement is with arena. I personally find arena to be the most fun aspect of Hearthstone and always have. I love some of the nutty, wild, and unpredictable things that can happen. And I think that making it Standard removes some of that. If it has to change, I think that the best way to make things change would be per season to choose a certain selection of sets available for the draft for that month. For instance having only GvG and WotG available to draft for a month. It wouldn't have to stay at only two either. Even that aspect could change per season. This allows for a smaller pool of cards and some crazy things to still happen. The only downside that I can see with this is when a held draft got carried over the end of season. What are your thoughts on a rotation like that?
On Arena going Standard.
You can roughly divide the game's player base into three groups.
1. Old Constructed players who never got into Arena. These won't play the new Arena either. Time has made it clear that the Arena format is not what they're looking for in Hearthstone.
2. Old (infinite) Arena players who switched at some point in the past and stayed. The fact that Arena has all the collectible cards is *the* reason these people are still playing Hearthstone. It's not even the free expansion of your collection that's driving them anymore. Making Arena Standard, thus introducing *a lot* of staleness into it, will most likely drive the vast majority of these players away. Not away from Arena, but from the game entirely.
3. Future and new players. To these, Arena will simply be an expensive, less consistent and weird Constructed.
This change will kill the format. Mark my word, one day, Wild will become completely barren and die, making all the old cards (with Arena now being Standard) effectively disappear as if they never existed.
I love you and respect you, Brian. But you're not thinking like an Arena player.
Semyon Galtsev I agree. Making Arena standard makes it less interesting in the long run and doesn't necessarily make it more balanced. Actually balancing around certain cards like Blizzard is doing now is a much better approach. Blizzard could be doing much more though and arena would be more fun in general if they played more with the format. Something like Grand Tournament week with a crazy bonus pick rate on TGT cards for example, which would suddenly make specific synergies like inspire, much more powerful.
I respect Kibler a lot, but his views on arena in general seems pretty outdated. As evident by his thinking a card like Chillwing Yeti is still one of the best cards in arena, even though it has become a lot more mediocre over the course of the last year.
Semyon Galtsev
I also play a lot of arena and I like his ideas. Those players don't play arena because they want to use all wild cards (they still do it in kiblers version but in a smaller card pool). I think they're playing it because they don't want to play refined decks.
Changing the whole card pool every few months is amazing. Some cards might shine in a certain period. Heartharena might not be able to calculate the power of certain cards because they need time to really understand the synergistic power of a card and your deck. And they need to adjust it every period.
Btw Kibler doesn't want to move arena to standard. He just noticed that a smaller card pool is better. Standard arena is better than wild arena but still not enjoyable for him.
Just an idea/suggestion: Divide the classes into 3 "subtypes". Example: Rogue into assassination/ outlaw/ subtlety. Add backstab/ prep/ evis etc. to the basic rogue pool and give each subtype new cards that are unique only to that subtype. An outlaw card cannot be used by a subtlety type but backstab is available to both and so on.
If they rotate out Classic cards, they need to allow players to dust them for full value.
I'e actually just had a really good idea for Arena... okay, so basically on top of the things you mentioned... Why don't they simply have like a reverse mulligan at the end of your 30 card selection. Where after you have build your deck and it flashes up on screen, it allows you to change up to 3 cards. That way - any cards which you chose that didn't synergize the way you had planned, or any you chose by mistake can be swapped out with one final change. Then you confirm your deck and its ready to go.
Additionally, it could tell you that the cards changed will be changed for same mana cards or for same type cards... I.E, Spell, Weapon, Minion.
This seems like it would work...
You know the meta is borked when all the "highlight" channels aren't really posting much. Because their aren't any interesting moments to show in the meta right now.
Trolden, Rage Orc, etc.
"Your health only matters in a game where it goes to zero"
That's a great quote by Kibler right there.
Kibler from a MTG background, surely you see why the 'jade' decks are bad for the format, can we not remember pack rat? although its not completely the same as pack rat the general idea of it is the same.
JUST REMOVE JADE GOLEMS
+RsCrowd They are totally different. Pack Rat was a single card that ensured the game played out identically from that point on and caused future draws to be irrelevant. Jade decks can play out very dynamically because they rely on individual cards, not a single engine.
i tried to find a card that was similar to the jade mechanic in MTG that also had as much of an impact, and i completely understand how pack rat was just a 1 card win condition in certain cases, but there being this Jade mechanic that in a way is similar to the idea of control decks using buccaneer, a deck that can go full aggro and then be able to play a 9/9 on turn 10 imo makes control warrior unplayable in ladder.
what do you think?
I didn't know there was a Pack Rat card... What does it do? Move minions around?
jade is weak as fuk
RsCrowd what I don't like about Jade Golems is that they totally crush Control/Fatigue decks. There is absolutely no chance of winning when they have Minions from 1/1 up to like 14/14. Might as well concede at the start.
In my opinion it would be cool when you play Arena you first pick your class and then you pick your Cardpool set. For Example you can choose between: Warlock-Hunter-Mage and after that you can choose your (3 random pools) Cardpool: (Classic-GvG)-(Classic-TGT)-(Classic-WotOG) what do you guys think?
The only concept I disagree is this premonition of "making it to Legend". As a casual player myself that only plays 2-3 games a given day I could give a shit about making Legend, the ACTUAL issue here comes down to the fact that the only way players are successful is extreme agro decks like Pirate or running the opposite, Renolock or Priest control-- the other classes and any mid tier design just gets absolutely shitted on. Sure, lets say with the top Tier 1 decks you can make it to high rank or Legend on ladder with the effort, but if you want to use Tier 2-3 decks you'd think you could at least have moderate success right? Nope, to even ATTEMPT any other mid range variant you will lose 95% of the time with almost no chance of winning. Want to go late game that isn't RenoLock or Jade? You'll lose. Want to mid range as anything against any Pirate? You'll lose. There's no chance at even "some" success if you don't go with the flow, that's why the meta is f'd up. Compare it to MTG Legacy where there's a lot of Tier 1 Decks To Beat, but even if you don't pick those you can always pick Armageddon Stax, Goblins, Deadguy, etc. and get a fair amount of success, that's how this game should be but it isn't.
You're exaggerating. Even a deck like Zoolock can climb the ladder; I'm not sure how far, but it's certainly not going to be stuck at 20. The meta generally isn't all that refined until Legend (or close to it) where all of the competition will be playing the best decks.
It's actually the opposite, the meta is incredibly refined till you get to Legend, it's all Pirate or Priest Control with some Renolock, then ppl actually experiment with other types 'cause they already made it and it doesn't matter.
The problem with going Zoo is that it violates the #1 deck building concept which is don't make a deck that's strictly worse than another... pirate warrior and pirate shaman agro can not only win faster but their less vulnerable to hate spells, I've played Zoo but by the time you hit even rank 12 you'll start losing over and over again.
And I just want to throw in that I don't even "refined" is a good term to use about climbing the ladder. In terms of just ranking up, there's certain decks like Pirate that have a 50% chance against the meta of just flat out winning (kind of like 'Burn' in MTG) and the opponent really having little to no counterplay, the other 50% chance its a Reno or very defensive deck or mirror match its still a Toss Up they they could win, so your almost guaranteed in your games you'll be above 500. If you try any other midrange or experimental combo archetype, your not only not guaranteed to beat the rush down pirate dcks but your not even guaranteed you'll beat any Reno control, and in your example of using ZooLock you'll not only lose to the better agro but also have a good chance of losing to the control decks with Dragonfire etc. There's a very huge gap in Hearthstone because the game is too Polar right now, agro is simply too good at what it does killing by turn 4-5 and control decks like Priest and RenoLock are too good at inevitably destroying anything else.
I love your "rants" Kibler, it's been quite a while since you did one of those..I really enjoy them and I'm glad this one was long..keep making them please :)
I like hearthstone a good deal actually, pity it has only one class each year.
X X hey it has 2 each expansion mage and insert class
X X Right now every class except Hunter and Paladin is viable on ladder (although Mage is rare).
mage is coming back into the meta
KambEight I have reached rank legend with reno mage the last season...
Damien Weyrauch when did it leave?
Spot on with the early game weapons and STB. You want to play early game weapons not matter the archetype, but the difference between undertaker/murloc tide hunter/cogmaster is that you have to devote a significant portion of your deck to maintain that synergy. That synergy may or may not be to strong, but one that is clear is that early game weapons possess no disadvantage.
Yeah well that's just like your opinion man
I really love your over-arching perspective and focus on how long the cards will remain in play. I think your strongest point was when you said that you should un-nerf old cards and throw them, along with big "moment-defining" cards like Ragnaros and Auctioneer, into Wild.
The identity and nostalgia would be sick!
None of this addresses at all the biggest problem for new players which is getting a decent fucking collection to get passed rank 20. The proposed ladder support only helps people not derank, but what about the new players that can't even rank up? I'm speaking in a legend player's perspective. If anyone knows about Kripp and his F2P account, he has a decent collection of cards there (way more than a new player) AND he has insane game knowledge and experience, but he was struggling at rank 18 standard ladder. A fresh newbie is gonna struggle to even get to rank 20 to get a fucking card back that does fuck all. Hearthstone is going to die off after all the veteran players get tired of all this bullshit, because there will never be enough new players to replace them and actually be able to play at a competitive level without shelling out $500+ worth of packs and adventures.
Great video! I share many of your ideas, the meta needs a refreshment, I really hope Blizzard could consider your ideas. I have a question for you as a MTG former player, do you think 60-cards decks could work for Hearthstone?
I thought he was going to talk about Trump
what about Trump?
WrathRaf donald trump?
Brendan Chung why.
Feels so good having you saying all of this, man
you know why people don't care about wild? it is because of mad scientist, dr.boom, shredders and secret bullshit... They should nerf and balance cards every 2 or 3 months to keep the game fresh
To bad you are ignorant. The most played decks in wild are aggro shaman and pirate warrior. You can thrown in a secret paladin or two as well.
But those are pretty much standard cards that are targeting for nerfs... Did you got the point on what I said?
pirate warrior and aggro shaman beat the sh** out of secret paladin
I did not miss your point. I just don't think any of those cards need to be nerfed. Dr. boom might be a good candidate for a nerf but the 7 mana slot is so bad in general. Also, as more and more cards are released, the decks become more about synergy then strongly stated value based minions. Most decks that run Dr. Boom are gimmicky decks at this point that need to fall back on a good 5-6-7 curve if drawn poorly.
@lobsterfork I think Dr. Boom would still be played in most of the decks right now! It was the most obscene high vcost card ever printed in the game, would be a staple in any reno deck and sure find its place in some of the midrangy decks like the dragon pirate warrior
Agree about the power level of 'forever-Legendaries' like Rag and Sylv creating a stale meta.
A lot of people forget that prior to GVG, Rag and Sylv were the most played neutral legendaries -- to the point it was feeling stale BACK THEN. What pushed them out of the meta wasn't a lack of power. It was one card --
Dr. Boom.
Mainly because, Dr. Boom was on their powerlevel, but also helped to counter them. Which forced those previously stale Legendaries out of the meta. This was a GOOD thing!
Fast forward to standard and Boom rotating out -- all of a sudden we see their return (the BGH nerf helped too). And as anyone who is a Hearthstone fan noticed, last year's Blizzcon had MANY, MANY matches decided by Rag flips. Oh, good old stale Rag flips determining "skill."
Blizzard has been so gunshy about making Legendaries on the powerlevel of Dr. Boom that they have made some very weak neutral Legendaries ever since (with the exception of the Old Gods--which are a bit of a separate case).
The thing is -- with the standard format -- Blizzard has EVERY REASON to create strong Neutral Legendaries that are on par with Dr. Boom, Rag, and Sylv powerlevels. They want the expansions to feel fresh and new -- which giving them new strong cards (mid-late game cards) would accomplish. They also wouldn't have to worry about the Dr. Boom problem, because these cards would rotate.
You'd allow for enough design space that Sylv and Rag could exist as 'forever-Legendaries,' but also be able to give players new powerful neutrals with the new set -- instead of Boogeyman.
Other side issues to Blizzard not utilizing Standard:
1) The past year of Standard, it felt like Blizzard overly punished strong classes using strategies they didn't like without replacing said classes ability to have a competitive strategy. Hunter and Pali were the embodiment of this.
2) The reverse is also true. The strength of Shaman is largely because it had cards created to counter Shielded Minibot. Totem Golem and Tunnel Trogg are remnants in response to a meta that was at a certain powerlevel. When Standard stripped away most classes early game, yet left these, Shaman dominated. (As did Dragon Warrior--which Alex's Champ is also a remnant from that much stronger early game).
Simply put -- Standard is a good idea. If Blizz actually used it to the formats potential. You wouldn't need to rotate strong core cards, if they just put cards of comparable powerlevel in their newer expansions. This is something they've failed miserably on.
Ok, so on what extent what would the nerfs be reversed like back to pyro blast being 8 mana or just things like blade flurry and outher whispers of the old gods nerfs reversed?
do we have any dates yet when TGT & LoE will only be playable in Wild decks ?
i also think that something needs to do about the Jade druids deck. it isnt competible compare to the other Gadgetzan decks.
i like the Lol jacket Kibler, why do you own it though? Do you follow the competitive league scene to some degree?
If you were to ask me, the easy solution to fixing arena's ever growing card pool problem, is that you could choose your arena pool block before choosing your class. Like, choose from naxrammus, gvg, league of explorers, kharazan, etc., and the only cards you can draft are from standard and the one or two expansions you choose. In that way you can make it similar to drafting from a particular set in magic the gathering sealed tournaments. Then, you only play against players who are in the same block as you. Card pools become satisfactorily limited, nostalgia factors are intact, people can avoid cards they feel are unfair ( firelands portal or piloted shredder, reno, what have you) and therefore enjoy the experience more.
got your point and i think its a very interessting idea to rotate too powerful cards out of the classic set, and just keeping the definding cards for each class. I would surrely not miss Rag, just because the card is too good whenever midrange is available.
Here's an interesting thought to change the mechanics on weapons. When you equip a weapon, your hero must always attack first before your minions. If your opponent has creatures, your hero must always attack minions first before going face. If there are no minions, you just automatically attack face.
I understand that this is a bit of a stretch, but it is a thought. Maybe a better idea could branch of from this.
Hello Kibler, what would you think about making the Small-Time Buccaneers text to:
"Has +2 Attack while you have a full Durability weapon equipped."
It hit the powerlevel of the minion aswell as lowering speed of weapon damage, it create decisions and give higher value to ooze as a counter.
What do you think about allowing new players to buy pre-made decks?
Wow, just sat through the entire video. Didn´t expect that, but I just couldn´t stop.
Thoughts on Arena, Standardformat and Smalltime Buckaneer were just too valuable.
So, this has been bothering me a little bit: early on when talking about the Pirate Package, Kibbler mentioned the comparison between Small Time Buccaneer and Cogmaster and then refuted the comparison. I agree with his counter argument, so that's all good. What surprised me, though, is that when he's talking about balancing STB, he didn't go back to the CM analogy and instead preferred to only talk about tweaking stats. Is there a reason why STB still wouldn't be balanced if he read "+2 Attack if you control a Pirate" to mirror CM? Since most of the other Aggro pirates are so easy to kill (Patches, Deckhand, and First Mate all have 1 hp) wouldn't maintaining STB's attack over a few turns be less viable and be more easy to interact with by standard decks, or- alternatively- require a larger pirate package which would make it a less viable addition to decks?
How about fixing the Grimmy goons. Do you think they will release again 3 class cards or is it over?
They also need to release something else for single player above the adventures. Grinding the ladder becomes tiring some times. Also I think the rewards for 1 month of grinding are too few
My personal opinion on the small time buccaneer is that it should have +1 with a weapon present, making it a 2/2. Would still be strong, but at least it can't trade up against 2/3's
kibler when are you coming back to the pro magic scene? i really miss watching you dominate.
Thoughts on increasing Buccaneer's cost to 2? Makes it less of a tempo blowout and also makes it harder to get turn 1 Patches.
Andrew Tarnawsky That would make him unplayable. Gah, screw 1 drops, most stupid thing to balance in the game.
that would make him unplayable. Why would you ever play that over say a Huge Toad on turn 2?
Andrew Tarnawsky It should be a 2 drop. It's a pirate so it would still see play over huge toad afterall. As it is now a warrior can deal upwards of 24 damage by turn 3 and that's horrid
that puts it out of the game: than its a pirate raptor
Where did you bought that Hearthstone table thingy behind you?
Loved the video Kibler ! Wish you could touch more on the things they could try from Mtg, playing from graveyards, scry type mechanics, rotation system. I think a draft format of just hero classes would be fun, mix and match! Or two headed dragon would be neat, paying more like normal draft to keep cards you get would be sweet. Do you think Buccaneer & Patches are too strong, or maybe the problem is not enough ways to answer how fast shaman and warrior are ? i.e. Hunter having zero catch up or draw, or fast enough to be a face deck and race them. It even has me trying out Reno Rouge(super fun btw) to soft counter other reno decks and try to have the catch up against aggro.
Possible ways to improve on the pirate problem:-Patches is summoned by south sea captain only-smb is triggered by a weapon with 4 or more attack (upgraded fwa or double poison) this will greatly reduce its power level while keeping it playable- add more neutral heals and low cost aoe cards to some classes- crew "ability": your deck must contain at least 10 pirates for the pirates to enter the battlefield, this will deal with the pirate package being super compact
what a great vid i love how you don't just pick on certain things but also give great ideas on how to fix those problems. keep it up! great work
Your thoughts are very valuable, I hope that many of your suggestions come to fruition. Great insights
Thanks for making this video Brian. Excellent commentary, as usual, backed by your experience with other CCGs. I totally agree with pretty much everything you said, especially about the need to change the pool in arena. I never play that format because, as you said, it always feels the same. Making it more of a MTG Cube experience would be WAY more enjoyable/fresh. Keep up the good work!!!
Can you go through the nerfs and point out which ones should be reverted in Wild-only?
I think that's a pretty critical part of the entire Wild format.
I love getting into discussion about games almost as much as I enjoy playing them, really enjoyed this video. The arena part perfectly sums up my experience with it (love drafting in MtG and hate Hearthstone arena)
What about choosing your 2 adventures and your 2 expansion sets and this + classic and basic will be your draft pool for Arena? And in game you would be able to see which adventures and expansions your opponent have chosen.
I think a re-roll option might be good for arena. At the end of the draft you can redo say 5 cards so say you went for a synergy and it didn't work you can get rid of it or you can have a couple more goes at getting synergies. In either case people would probably go for synergies more knowing they have a safety net so potential synergy drafts would actually come together
What if in the beginning of every arena draft you chose like 3 sets to pick cards from, thoughts?
An interesting idea to limit the Arena pool would be to have a shifting card pool. The area could work from a card pool that partially changes each week; Have Standard and the latest expansion be a constant available card pool and have 1-2 adventures or expansions be randomly selected each week to be the addition to the card pool.
So you suggest that they make force of nature combo and auctioneer op again in wild , and just see those op decks over and over again until i wish i was against pirate warrior ?
Don't get me wrong . I would love to see my golden force of nature and savage roar combo work again ( btw it was my favorite deck and the one i wished to draft one day when i started hearthstone for the first time ) but i believe that making this kind of thing available to everyone will just make the wild ladder filled with the 2-3 most op decks of all time and nothing else .
I didn't know you were an LCS fan. What team you go for?
Kibler, your advice regarding thresholding in the ladder finally got heard! :D
Omg I would love to play combo Druid again! I love the idea for wild and the classic set cycling!