Telephone and electrical companies have been using this for over 10 years to set telephone poles. It is better than concrete in many ways. As it expands in the hole it has lateral drive that you don’t get with concrete. It is a great product
Most telephone poles are set 6-8 feet. Some taller poles can be (>45’) can be set deeper. Most are 6-8 feet though. 15’ would be the most extreme depths and only for the tallest poles.
it is designed to poor in to a form... a tube. it doesn't lock in to the ground. even expanding foam could you imagine how much more you would need if you didn't poor this in a form? that would be ridiculous.
I am a dish network, installer we have adopted this product for our metal post installs. I can speak on the behalf of the installation compared to concrete this stuff is far superior. In 15 minutes I am able to mount a dish to the pole and it is rock solid as firm in the ground as set concrete. This foam does have hole diameter guidelines that have to be followed to achieve the strength that is advertised
@The Sustainable Texan yeah I run into terrible installations myself but thats not every Installer. There are "good eggs" and "bad eggs" in every industry, yours is no exception.
My concern would be the durability of the foam with time. Lets not also discount that the concrete mass adds further stability just because it weights significantly more. Granted the force of the soils may greatly dwarf the added weight to the point that isn't not significant at all. Very interesting for sure. The water proofing along is a huge advantage.
Foam is like plastic so I doubt it will degrade for a very long time. Usually you don't put too much concrete around the posts anyway to have stabilizing mass. It's more of the lateral pressure that kept the post rigid. I like this product because concrete causes wood to rot after 5 years with contact to moisture.
Hi firehazard51, this is Edson Fariello with H. B. Fuller, the manufacturer of Fast 2K, the product that Matt and Kyle demonstrated. The weight of the footing only matters for vertical movement. For example, in areas with frost, you always want to dig the hole 6" below the frost line, otherwise frozen water may move the post and footing up no matter if the footing is made of concrete or our Fast 2K. What holds the post in place is the strong adhesion of the Fast 2K footing to the post and ground. The federal agency National Research Council tested it for almost 2 years. Pull out tests results: 4,000 lbs of vertical load could not remove the post. When they applied 7,000 lbs, they broke the post a the ground level.
The nice thing about expanding foam is if the soil is soft it pushes outwards kinda "keying" itself into the ground. Same concept as those cone shaped footer forms but your not disturbing the soil to get that cone form into the ground the foam just does it in its nature.
I have used this personally. Low land by lakefront super high water table. Could not get any Crete to set up well on 12 ft poles 5 foot in. Hour glasses the holes with the pole to about 75° and wallowed it well. Shopvac out water and pour foam. Its held up even with kids jumping the fence 2 years now. Love this stuff.
@@philxdev I bought foam for replacing cattle gate posts. After digging out the old posts the holes are 2ft X 3ft. The foam wont be dense enough as there is no resistance for the foam. I would be pouring foam into an open hole.. So, I'm going with rebar and cement.
For my pressure-treated 4"x4" fenceposts and clothesline poles, I use pea gravel. Dig hole, insert 4"x4", pour in pea gravel. Give it a jiggle, add a bucket of water, give it a jiggle again. Add more pea gravel and water until the hole is filled and the pea gravel is all settled tight. The clothesline poles have been in the ground for close to 25 years and are still just as strong as the day they went in. Not only does the pea gravel allow the water to drain away from the post, preventing rot, but when it comes time to pull out the 4"x4", it comes straight out without a big, heavy lump of concrete attached to it. Now, for our deck and front porch we had to do what the building inspector insisted on, but for the others the pea gravel worked.
never put concrete on fence post, they last longer are adjustable over time and easily replaces at the end of their life. Now if you have load bearing posts, like for decks or buildings, you do need a good footing. for that application I prefer the metal brackets embeded/anchored in concrete. My 40+ years of experience.
Same here this only good for fences and other posts and some small decks, but due to its lack in compressive strength per video proof testing its not quite up there with longer term higher strength concrete with wet or drill set brackets. But it is cheaper than concrete for not so permanent structures especially ones that may need full replacing every decade or so. I have known about this foam product since 5 or 6 year ago.
That sounds reasonable. However, in my neighbor's sandy loam, she had to rebuild her entire fence because all the posts were falling. I use concrete every time with no problems. We get about 40 inches of rain per year.
As a carpenter I has seen first hand how expanding foam deteriorates, becomes brittle and crumbles in to dust, i would NEVER put something that short lived around any house stump or post, concrete outlasts the timber and if you pretreat your post it wont rot.
We'll see what time tells. All expanding foams are not created equally and this one has two parts that have to be combined. Like comparing elmers glue to gorilla glue here.
I used this product when I re-set my entire backyard fence. It was super easy to work with and saved hours of time. One year later the fence hasn’t moved/pitched, nothing. Excellent stuff. Worth the price.
2 things. First, I'm not convinced about the foam preventing or resisting the post rotting. Post rot occurs right at ground level where oxygen and moisture meet. What you have holding the post underground won't matter much. Second, no way in hell a skidsteer could "shear" off even a mediocre quality 4x4 post. The tensile strength of wood is incredible. I don't think a very large crane could successfully rip a 4x4 apart if it were pulling straight on without any side loading. I think it's weird that Matt or especially Kyle even contemplated the possibility that a skid steer could pull it apart. I have to think they both know better.
95thousandroses - if he was correct in his terminology, that it’s a polyurethane foam, that is indeed a non-porous _”closed cell”_ foam so it would keep the water out...
it might only be effective if the foam extended above grade. And the foam top edges were sloped away from the post so as not to hold water. I can' imagine foam working well above grade and in the elements like the Sun and critters.
Just south of Houston,Tx, they have Black Gumbo dirt, we just use a 3 foot length of 5 inch pipe, cut long ways in half, sharpen both sides, weld a cap on one end, mount a 3 foot T handle, where ever you want to put a fence post, pour a gal of water at that spot, wait a couple of minutes, then take your tool, and twist it around as your going into the soil, when your down to the bottom, push the tool into the open area on the tool to make soil stick to the pipe, lift it all out at one time, take the pole stick it in the perfect round hole, take a rod compactor and pack just a little around the post, I put many,many fences in this way, The one I installed at my place , 1000 foot, spaced at 10 foot each, still looks great, 27 years later. A old farmer showed me how to do this, when he saw me using a post hole digger, I guess sometimes its good to have crappy soil, makes for good fences.
Charles Miller I'm trying to envision your method but still lost. I guess I may still be slightly impaired from last nights drinking. Do you have a video or a link to one that can be viewed? I understand processes better by seeing than I do by trying to comprehend from reading. Thanks much for your input.
10 bags of 50s, 1 yard.. 7 bags of 80 for a yard... Shlepping all tat nonesense around is a bunch of b.s.. 60 -80 to ship it to the site.. That's $100 to get it there, then moving it to the post... Way cooler and has a strong hold because it expands tight to, rather than forming to the hole.
Great video. After watching I quickly flew to the comments to see both the foam experts fighting with concrete experts and of course the people fighting over the price of concrete. Once again I am not disappointed. Just am frankly surprised none of the comments ended up political or religious. So plus one for that.
I used this product on my in-law's fence. Good stuff. 36 posts, 3.5 gallons of each part, bell shaped holes. That bagged version is stupid. Buy it in jugs.
For those viewers who aren't clear, Mr. Stumpenhorst is obviously a contractor who does this type of work for a living. He doesn't buy one bag of concrete to set a post or two, he works on sites where they install enough posts to require a concrete mixer truck. Compared to that expense, this type of product is big savings.
Kyle test this yourself. And also do it with a chain hoist or crane so it’s pulled vertically cuz that bobcat looks like a radical lift so the machine snapped the post and not the lift.
I’ve used this stuff. I imagine it’s good for things like fence posts, or posts that have near perfect vertical loading, but if there’s any kind of twisting moment on the post, it doesn’t hold like concrete. I built a wind chime holder which looks like a cross, with one arm 18” long, and the other 36” long. It sits 36” into the ground an 8’ above ground. Once I hung the chimes, it went out of plumb.
Put in 3.5 inch screws that protrude out 2 inches and then drill a bunch of 1 inch deep holes (half inch or 1 inch diameter)... along the 2 feet length of post that goes into the ground.. these voids and protruding screws create teeth that grab onto the foam. I also coat it with a paint to protect it from the water... Bitch is not moving especially if you go 2-3 feet deep.
Ikr. That's how I do it. I get it though. This is for guys who are not doing a full on build but just a quick deck. They wanna set the post, frame out and then cover. Collect the check and move on
john smith lazy ass workers use this crap and damn this guy showing it as a acceptable product. I can’t count the number of times I have had to clean up after people who use this shit
Not sure those companies are using this per cost to concrete mix at 3-9 per bag and 10-15 per bag per post for the Fast2k, but it does not do well long term in compressive type structure post in ground, it is more for such as fence. mailbox, sign, and other such posts.
I used this stuff on my personal fence post, Oz wrapped aluminum posts. This stuff is great if it is warm outside (at least 80 degrees or so.) but if you are setting posts in cold weather concrete still wins . Glad to say I used both concrete and this product and they both provide equal strength, honestly the foam set posts felt more rigid.
On the farm we put posts in heavily compacted dirt. Half my fence was done this way 20 years ago. The backyard neighbour had to have concrete. 15 years later, I have a rotted post, and now have to get the concrete out of the hole. Compacting the dirt takes a while, but the post can be replaced easily. I believe this foam will outlast a post, if kept from UV, and I"ve read gasoline will melt it when the time comes.
When I re-roofed my cathedral ceiling cabin, I found the original roof had about a quarter inch of foam against 2 X 6 tongue and groove cedar roof planking. Carpenter ants had carved our a nest in the foam. It seems that foam makes an ideal nest for carpenter ants. We had to replace one 2 X 6 cedar plank too because the ants did not limit their tunneling to the foam though that appeared to be the point of entry of the ants.
It will most likely decay leaking some sort of horrible toxin into the ground that will cost thousands to clean up. By then all the necessary licenses and permits will be set in place by the government which will be required just to clean up this crap.
JourneyTotheTruthandTotalRandomness This is not recyclable and when finished its useful life it will be an environmental issue..... forever. Concrete has its costs but then when crushed it can be totally recycled.
Years ago I worked for a guy who used pea gravel to set fence posts. It worked very well and after packing it down and covering it with dirt it was rock solid. The reason he did it was it made it much easier to replace down the road. Also very cost effective.
I like Kyle and his TH-cam channel, but I disagree with his comment that concrete rots posts. All the rotted post that I have dealt with had the rot just above the top of the cement and the cement top was below the ground surface. The part of the post down in the cement was OK. When I set posts I build a small cone of concrete around the post above the ground surface.
Im actually worried about this product sealing the post and making it retain water and causing it to rot. Concrete will suck the water out of the post.
Maybe it’s just experience that I’ve lived... but I’ve always seen the rot about 3-6” below the concrete... over time the posts becomes basically separated and sitting there in the hole. Structurally it probably isn’t going anywhere, but uplift is the issue. This exact reason is why I tore down a shed at my house... I’m only speaking from experience, Matt is the science expert
RR Buildings Thanks for the input. I am also not a scientist, but I can see the rot occurring a few inches below the top of the cement if water can get to it. If the wooden post is completely covered by cement the water should not be able to penetrate into the wood for rot to start. In addition to the barrier formed by the cement, the high pH of cement will help prevent fungus (which causes rot) from being able to survive. I first saw you channel when you built Jimmy Diresta’s shop. I watched the whole series and really enjoyed it.
Awesome seeing you guys together. Aside from Ave, you two guys are the only other 2 people I actually watch religiously. Living in Texas and raised in the Quad cities... Matt and Kyle are all you need to watch for craftsmanship and building science.
The problem with this is how light it is, I used it on my fence at home and the wind blew it right out of the ground because there is no weight holding it in the ground. It does set very quick and hard but not effective for anything that involves and weight 😂
Another blogger (who's NOT trying to sell this product) did a test and showed that the foam shrinks after setting up, leaving the post wobbly and gaps with the surrounding soil.
In the UK we coat the bases of submerged posts with bitumen before fixing down = no rot. Above ground level, we then flaunch the concrete into a small pyramid so water runs straight off and doesn't sit there rotting the timber.
About two years, unless you compress it in some way first (like applying a lateral load) and ruin it. It's almost the exact same as GreatStuff foam. Go get yourself a can of that GS, and make yourself a little sample. Let it cure, then see how resilient it is to damage. Not very. Never ever ever use it for something structural; like a deck.
Used this foam product on part 200 ft fence. My brother picked some up as a test... A year and a half later, we replaced a 80 ft section that we used it on, every post that had the foam stuff in it needed pulled and we put concrete in it. 1 problem with this is setting. You have to make sure you 100% secure the post in place with bracing, much more secure than with concrete, before adding the foam. The product will begin to push the post in various directions as it begins to set so we basically had to monitor it for 10 minutes or so. The second problem is coming back to redo it. I will say the ground seemed to contain alot of water in the area, but the concrete didnt seem to have the same issues.
I've used a very similar product to set 80 foot fiberglass polls in a baseball stadium with 1500 lb of Lights hanging off them. That was about 10 years ago and the polls are still standing true and Plumb today. I used some of that product to set my fence posts about 6 years ago and they are unbudgeable. This is an amazing product for all you non-believers you got to get with the times.
indyseven packing dry concrete would have work just as well and would have been much faster.. New inventions should be easier to use and less expensive than what you already use.. until it is as cheap as concrete fuck a bunch a Foam
Hi 1806StoneHouse. This is Edson Fariello with H. B. Fuller, the manufacturer of Fast 2K, the product that Matt and Kyle demonstrated. Thank you for the testimonial!
The real question is why concrete fence posts (the actual posts themselves) are not easily available in the US. It's nuts to put wood in the ground where it will (eventually - 20 years for treated wood?) rot and or get eaten by termites. Put a concrete fence post in the ground and it will last, well, for ever, and with some judicial hole digging and compaction of soil you might not even need to use extra concrete to secure it in place. Make the fence posts in a mold that produces a H-section (with some lateral holes) so fence panels can be slotted in and you have a much more long-lasting fencing system.
It's amazing that they're friends because this guy is known to be a quack. How he teaches to diy renovate rentals by spending more than the rental homes are worth making unnecessary overpriced upgrades to them.
I considered using this foam for a mailbox post two summers ago. You got to love no lifting and mixing bagels of concrete. I had recently had knee replacement and didn't want to over do it. But living where the frostline is 3 ft. and digging with just a shovel my hole would be so wide beyond the 4 x 4 that it would take close to three of those foam bags. I could have used a sonotube, not cheap, but I wasn't convinced it would as strong as concrete to stand up the sometimes 4 feet of heavy snow winged at it from plows without the concrete's weight. Had I had a post hole digger and kept the hole narrow I might have gone with it. I can see a real use for it in locations where getting concrete to the location is difficult or time is a factor.
2 fence installers I know have tried stuff like this both had to tear down the fence and re-set the posts in concrete. One told me The plus side was that it shrunk enough that the post pulled clean out of it, and the foam pulled clean out of most of the holes in just a few pieces. Waste of time and money. Concrete is cheap and not that difficult.
@@dewildest LOL Listen, I've worked in construction long enough to know that if something actually works, it gets wide adoption pretty quick, especially if it saves money. And in construction, time usually costs more than any of the materials you're working with. But the kicker is, it has to work and be reliable, or else it just stays niche.
I used this stuff yesterday installed a new letter box pole and such. This stuff seems to be really a great solution ! It’s easy , fast and really sturdy! And cheap I think for simple projects like I did, or even small fences would be ideal. Stuff really works, also want to add to this comment?!! Make sure you dig your holes properly ... stuff really works
Local electric coop uses something similar to set power poles. I have been following Kyle for some time now. So far, I can not recall seeing him put posts in the ground. Instead, he goes to great length to accurately set Simpson Strong Tie hardware in site cast concrete piers. I don't think this foam is adaptable to Kyle's current building methods. No matter what technique you use to set pressure treated wood posts in post hole you are going to get rot and insects. I hope Kyle was playing along for the sake of the video and not thinking about cutting corners for the sake of a couple of bucks.
Steve Hansen I’m not going to be building our structures with posts in the ground ever again... I asked if a metal bracket similar to ours could work in such an application and they said no. There is not enough surface area to bond too. I however agree it is a super cool method and adaptable to tons of other specific trades as in fence and deck builders.
When I first saw this foam stuff some 5 or 6 years ago I took a look at it and did not see any way of using anchors in it as it was only shown as for, definitely would not use it on a set-in-ground type post structure aside from fence and deck as it lacks the compressive strength to hold up heavier structures which concrete is perfect for with use of brackets such as what Kyle uses from Midwest Permacolumn.
Would a different type of bracket be better, say the top of your current bracket but the bottom part being set in the form being an I-beam or similar? The issue would then be you need custom brackets.
You can buy this stuff in bulk if you are doing more than one or two posts. Home Depot has "5-post" (worth) jugs for $40. A "15-post" kit is $122. Admittedly, I don't have experience with this foam, but this looks like a huge resource-saving product. The bag of concrete might only be $3, but how much more is invested in pouring concrete: water bill, tools, time spent mixing, time spent hauling 80 lb bags, wear and tear on the body, worker-comp claims, etc.? If you are 115-pound lady trying to DIY at home, or a solo-maintenance worker (with an endless backlog of tasks to complete), trying to fix a broken fence, this product looks far-preferable to concrete. Even if you are a bulk-builder/construction, this seems a lot easier to buy the foam parts in bulk, and pay one person to mix and pour (handling gallon jugs), as opposed to paying 1 or more people, plus a mixer truck & driver, water, higher injury-risk, etc. to pour lots of concrete.
I agree for the most part! However, and it won't matter in all situations. I have slid a million posts out of the ground in concrete and the concrete stayed. Also had customers decks sink because the didn't drop a rock or two in the hole before the post and concrete. Then you also have "ground contact" and "sub contact" posts. big difference.
I have used this product. im a builder in Pennsylvania and we have to poor concrete under the posts at 4' deep, then we fill preferably with 2b stone or the existing soil, this is code for building a post building or a deck. I dont know why you would ever waste the time or money to poor concrete around a post plus it would be way more difficult to keep your post in position and level. I have used this product to set a aluminum yard fence because it was raining and our dirt was too muddy to work with.. had to get it done! anyway week later homeowner wasnt happy the fence was not strong so we dug all the foam out of these holes and used concrete (it was a nightmare)
Yeah, and there are 45 bags of that stuff in 1 yard of concrete. He uses 1/3 yard concrete per post so 15 bags worth which comes to $60-$100 depending on the brand. Or as he said in the video he pays $120 a yard which comes out to $40 a post.
As somone who has manually caried hundreds 80lbs bags down a +45° slope for some jobs, somthing like this could save a lot of money where you don't expect it. There is also the delivery cost of the concrete due to the large weight. Then the logistics of trying to mix and pour it on a slope like that. Not to mention as other have said any injury claims which are not at all unlikely in this type of situation, if not harm to yourself (try and tell me your back is 100% what it was after carrying 100+ bags of concrete on rough terrain.) Now imagine instead of spending half a day paying several workers to haul all the concrete into place, along with all the mixing and pouring equipment, then actually mixing it on bad terrain and pouring it, vs litterly having one guy carry ALL the foam in one go, maybe two, no extra equipment required. Done and poured in an hour tops and you're onto the next task. Saving that kind of time on labor adds up BIG TIME.
They ended up saying he would pay 30 a hole but he didn't say how many bags all I herd was 3 or 4 so let's say He bought 3 bags at 10 each but the price could also be 3 bags at 15 each So it's either (30-45 for 3 bags) Or (6 dollars a bag for 3 bags so $18 of concrete.) In some cases it would be cheaper if concrete is cheap and ur only mixing a small batch. But to save time and labor these would save you so much if you just do it yourself and it would be really easy overall.
I used this for setting a couple mailbox posts and it worked great. One bag for two posts and they were solid within an hour or so, could've been sooner but that was when I checked back on it. I think what a lot of the concrete guys are forgetting is the average homeowner probably doesn't want to deal with the mess and prep of concrete, especially on a small scale. If I could buy 6 bags of this to set some posts for a deck, then I don't need to make a mess mixing or lose a wheelbarrow. Fwiw, I'm fully in support of concrete and would need to be convinced to use this on a large building.
Along with the mess of concrete there is also the weight, the back breaking job of mixing. I know some people dry set fence posts but that just seems lazy to me. I use concrete on my fence about 27 years ago and it has held up, even through hurrican winds. I am now in need of some repair and because I am older I am considering this foam due to the reasons I mentioned.
Don't lie Matt, that shot to the face hurt like hell. lol Here is my hypothetical: Say you're setting post for a back deck and you have a market garden down slop on the grade. Has there been any testing for chemical leaching into the water table?
Good point Travis, most of the positive reviews here are fake and by same person. You can tell by the writing style. Another company paying someone with profiles to engage customers who have don’t have knowledge of construction
Travis Hueg I’ve sure the foam product before. I’m not certain it was this one. It was very expensive and it didn’t take long before you could wiggle the posts. Concrete is way better.
The polyurethane foam will also lock in and trap any moisture. The post needs to be able to dry out and generally the post rots right at the top of the concrete where the moisture is trapped(collar rot). A well tamped post using the dirt you dug out to set the post is ready to be built on immediately. Regardless, I still prefer Kyle’s method of having no post below grade for anything other than a mailbox post and fence post.
Yes, but I promise you that it is far less environmentally destructive than concrete. Concrete productions is actually one of the biggest producers of green house gasses on the planet.
Sakrete at 3.10 for me for 60 pounds versus Sika Pro at 11.97 a bag per post is more but the Sika is easier to handle and such. The bag of cement would be enough for a few holes at least, all I really need is the lower half to be encased in either. but there are other products out there offering better post protection for in the ground construction.
Joshua79C C if you can’t lift a bag of concrete you need to hit the gym. 60 pounds is a bag of dog food. Products like is are for lazy ass contractors and homeowners
He was comparing to concrete delivered off the truck. This foam is a huge labor savings compared to mixing quikrete on site by hand or in a mixer. Seems adequate for fences and decks that aren't elevated too much.
Though Quickrete is supposed to work fine for posts by just pouring it in dry and then pouring water in over the top. I can't bring myself to do that, must pre-mix so I know it all is going to harden evenly, but I'm sure it works fine given it is just for stabilizing the post, not for some structural or long lasting surface.
Skyler Bicknell but what do they use to make said concrete, limestone they are digging up the earth for limeston by the truckload that doesnt seem any more “eco friendly” to me but, to each their own
You evil boys - now I'm addicted to yet another TH-cam channel! Just spent an hour watching Kyle building a garage - now I want a garage I don't even need!!! ;)
I checked the Amazon reviews after seeing several bad reviews here but most Amazon reviews were very positive and by people having used the product. I live in the California desert so moisture not a big issue here and I'm doing the job by myself. I'm going to give it a try.
FWIW, I'm a fencing contractor and I've got a cheat code. I like to use no mix fast setting concrete. Level the post to a mason line, pour the dry mix into the hole, add the water, hard in 20 minutes, hang in 4 hours. Square, plumb, and true everytime.
As fence builders, we have often been curious about this product. The cost has been the initial thing holding us back from trying it. Our other concerns have been the longevity and the ability to make adjustments to the post as needed when you get down the line and have to go back 3,4, or 5 previous posts to make a minor height or line adjustment. I would totally be for this in smaller projects or for posts that are stabilized and not going anywhere like a deck. I love the idea of the lighter and easier to handle product. Sackrete gets old after a while. One if these days I'll try it out....
No way in hell that foam stays intact while a skid steer or backhoe shears off the treated 4x4.... Also 3 60 lbs bags of mix isn't anywhere near 1/3 of a cubic yard.
Add 3+ inch protruding screws to the base of your post along with drill hole voids to give the foam teeth to grab onto. The ground is holding the post. Reason why concrete is holding a post is because it is liquid and fills the grooves in the wood to create teeth to hold it. The ground is your strength. You’re trying to make your post “one” with earth.
@@swatisquantum sorry man but as an equipment operator it does not matter if you put 3-inch protruding screws at the base of of the post. Out of the hundreds of treated 4 x 4 fence post in concrete that ive torn out, not a single one sheared off unless it was rotten. Most fence post will always come out with the concrete foam or whatever used to Anchor it still attached to the one end of the fence post. You don't make it one with the ground, you make it one with the fence post. It's concrete doesnt hold in the ground to the point that it shares off, foam definitely will not.
You can buy these two part foams of various densities in bulk and mix it yourself. I have built a few boats and used a marine grade version to fill spaces for flotation (less dense than the stuff shown here). It is easy to work with. Much cheaper than the pre-measured bags.
@@markanthony3275 So you still use planks for sub floors and walls? Pex pipe and shark bites are awesome. They make sense from all sides; less trouble for the plumber, more reliability for the home owner.
@Mark Anthony OSB is not that bad. I used it in my shop for the wall sheathing. It's the only structural application I would use it for. Roof and floors are all plywood.
I have very few rotted posts some are 40+ years 4x4 cedars in my yard holding up still hard to believe I put in as a kid this would have been awesome back then!
FYI your math is way off. If one bag replaced a 60lb bag, that would be 0.45cf. There are 27cf in a cubic yard of concrete. Kyle said he uses 1/3 of a yard for a hole. Which would be 20 bags of this stuff. Not 3-4. Which equates to $200. Where as concrete is $120/yard, or $40 to fill one hole. So nowhere near comparable in price.
I thought the same thing. If he is using 1/2 of a yard of concrete per hole, he is doing something wrong....I haven't one decks in years but maybe 2 to 2 1/2 bags per hole at the most... it sure as hell isn't 1/3 of a yard of concrete
Wow, another great foam product. I recently learned about a foam block that’s been used in Europe for a while. High R-Value, much less labor intensive than concrete block. It uses some kind of poly sealer in between. Doesn’t break down in water. Only a week later, I saw it being used for a million dollar build.
I used this foam to install a mailbox and it is very sturdy and it kept the mailbox post in place better than concrete. It’s very convenient and much cleaner than concrete.
Will always use concrete. That foam will break down in 6 years and posts will be loose. Always use concrete, cheaper and stronger. Lazy ass contractors use this crap and then honest contractor get to clean up after this bs
you missed the part where you pour to allow it to stop set below the top of grade so it can covered in dirt and grass which will protect it from sun degradation and make it more appealing than seeing it sticking up out of the ground.
What you are not understanding is moisture from the ground degrades it. Seen dozen of these posts become loose after a few years. Lazy people use expanding foam instead of concrete. I missed nothing. These products don’t last, it works long enough for the installation warranty a company offers ends
edmundo oliver stop talking you look stupid. Concrete doesn’t retains water. It is a porous material allowing the water to drain away from the post, it doesn’t retain it. Placing your post on gravel at the base of the hole allows for proper drainage of the water from around the post. Stopping any chance of it rotting, gravel base is even more important with clay soil.
Zack - you could offer this knowledge and advice, win friends and influence people, without the insult. It doesn't make you sound smarter when you put someone down - it makes you mean.
I have a deck I, building in the next two months and see this as my way of replacing the concrete to have a longevity for my posts. Question is it ok to pick up the post to get it under it for even more protection ?
Neat product, i don't know enough about concrete to say if these are a decent replacement. But I can definitely see where this would be useful. Especially if you were building in an area with limited concrete.
Wow, wonder how this worked in cold , think of all the cabin builders that could dig , set and build a small cabin in a weekend. And cost savings, as well as weight savings in transit. Really cool
I use Secure Set same 2 part liquid you mix from containers. This concept works awesome. I will continue to use this stuff until I need to pour slabs for steps etc....
Just a couple necessary tips make sure what you are setting is straight /level/plumb with either some rocks or pieces of wood a corner level works great. Mix the liquids quickly and pour completely around your post. If the Secure Set comes above and hardens above the hole ground. Use a sharp utility knife to remove the excess.
Discovered Kyle about a month ago and have watched all his videos. Love his attention to detail Wish there was a Kyle around here to put up a building.
I did a test with one post using this method and its a no go. Followed the directions perfectly. Came back 2 days to see. The foam had pulled away from the hole edges and away from the post. Pulled the post out with my hands. Its the good old back breaking concrete I guess. I really wanted this to work real bad.
Telephone and electrical companies have been using this for over 10 years to set telephone poles. It is better than concrete in many ways. As it expands in the hole it has lateral drive that you don’t get with concrete. It is a great product
What do you mean by lateral drive?
It expands and pushes outward into the surrounding soil, locking it into the ground
tommyjohnsonjr 👍👍👍
Most telephone poles are set 6-8 feet. Some taller poles can be (>45’) can be set deeper. Most are 6-8 feet though. 15’ would be the most extreme depths and only for the tallest poles.
it is designed to poor in to a form... a tube. it doesn't lock in to the ground. even expanding foam could you imagine how much more you would need if you didn't poor this in a form? that would be ridiculous.
I am a dish network, installer we have adopted this product for our metal post installs. I can speak on the behalf of the installation compared to concrete this stuff is far superior. In 15 minutes I am able to mount a dish to the pole and it is rock solid as firm in the ground as set concrete. This foam does have hole diameter guidelines that have to be followed to achieve the strength that is advertised
Thanks for the comments from your experience.
fine. if i'm installing dishes ill use this, anything else i'll still use concrete.
Right on Chris Frost. We are also the manufacturers of the product that I believe you've been using. I'm glad you like it!
*Clearly this comment above is fake* we all know why lol
@The Sustainable Texan yeah I run into terrible installations myself but thats not every Installer. There are "good eggs" and "bad eggs" in every industry, yours is no exception.
My concern would be the durability of the foam with time. Lets not also discount that the concrete mass adds further stability just because it weights significantly more. Granted the force of the soils may greatly dwarf the added weight to the point that isn't not significant at all. Very interesting for sure. The water proofing along is a huge advantage.
Foam is like plastic so I doubt it will degrade for a very long time. Usually you don't put too much concrete around the posts anyway to have stabilizing mass. It's more of the lateral pressure that kept the post rigid. I like this product because concrete causes wood to rot after 5 years with contact to moisture.
Its been used on telephone poles for a long time. I did my fence about 5 years ago and its still solid.
Hi firehazard51, this is Edson Fariello with H. B. Fuller, the manufacturer of Fast 2K, the product that Matt and Kyle demonstrated. The weight of the footing only matters for vertical movement. For example, in areas with frost, you always want to dig the hole 6" below the frost line, otherwise frozen water may move the post and footing up no matter if the footing is made of concrete or our Fast 2K. What holds the post in place is the strong adhesion of the Fast 2K footing to the post and ground. The federal agency National Research Council tested it for almost 2 years. Pull out tests results: 4,000 lbs of vertical load could not remove the post. When they applied 7,000 lbs, they broke the post a the ground level.
Parm Mohan
Well. Is does degrade. And it crumbles because of the bubbles in it. When it is degraded you can litterally stick your finger in it.
firehazard51
Then use hydraulic concrete it's waterproof
The nice thing about expanding foam is if the soil is soft it pushes outwards kinda "keying" itself into the ground. Same concept as those cone shaped footer forms but your not disturbing the soil to get that cone form into the ground the foam just does it in its nature.
I have used this personally. Low land by lakefront super high water table. Could not get any Crete to set up well on 12 ft poles 5 foot in. Hour glasses the holes with the pole to about 75° and wallowed it well. Shopvac out water and pour foam. Its held up even with kids jumping the fence 2 years now. Love this stuff.
I've used this on a couple of privacy fences that I've put up. Sadly it doesn't hold up near as well as concrete and it is not as solid
Was just going to ask how it worked with chain-link fencing. Thanks for answering my question, lol.
I agree. The privacy fence I built started to lean right away. This product is better used for a mail box post or a quick fix.
@@philxdev I bought foam for replacing cattle gate posts.
After digging out the old posts the holes are 2ft X 3ft.
The foam wont be dense enough as there is no resistance for the foam.
I would be pouring foam into an open hole..
So, I'm going with rebar and cement.
For my pressure-treated 4"x4" fenceposts and clothesline poles, I use pea gravel. Dig hole, insert 4"x4", pour in pea gravel. Give it a jiggle, add a bucket of water, give it a jiggle again. Add more pea gravel and water until the hole is filled and the pea gravel is all settled tight. The clothesline poles have been in the ground for close to 25 years and are still just as strong as the day they went in. Not only does the pea gravel allow the water to drain away from the post, preventing rot, but when it comes time to pull out the 4"x4", it comes straight out without a big, heavy lump of concrete attached to it. Now, for our deck and front porch we had to do what the building inspector insisted on, but for the others the pea gravel worked.
never put concrete on fence post, they last longer are adjustable over time and easily replaces at the end of their life. Now if you have load bearing posts, like for decks or buildings, you do need a good footing. for that application I prefer the metal brackets embeded/anchored in concrete. My 40+ years of experience.
Same here this only good for fences and other posts and some small decks, but due to its lack in compressive strength per video proof testing its not quite up there with longer term higher strength concrete with wet or drill set brackets. But it is cheaper than concrete for not so permanent structures especially ones that may need full replacing every decade or so. I have known about this foam product since 5 or 6 year ago.
That sounds reasonable. However, in my neighbor's sandy loam, she had to rebuild her entire fence because all the posts were falling. I use concrete every time with no problems. We get about 40 inches of rain per year.
I've used this same product on a fence for a friend of mine and it's nice and strong. Great product and super easy to work with.
As a carpenter I has seen first hand how expanding foam deteriorates, becomes brittle and crumbles in to dust, i would NEVER put something that short lived around any house stump or post, concrete outlasts the timber and if you pretreat your post it wont rot.
@Jack park rather be using a product that is proven to work than getting sued for a building failure.
We'll see what time tells. All expanding foams are not created equally and this one has two parts that have to be combined. Like comparing elmers glue to gorilla glue here.
@Jack park when you do something for years, you say "If it ain't broke why fix it". His way works why take the chance.
@@xxdeathxxnols5434 would you be prepared to take the risk and wait for 10 years just to find it doesn't work?
@@speakupriseup4549 No sir. I learn from others mistakes. Lol
I used this product when I re-set my entire backyard fence. It was super easy to work with and saved hours of time. One year later the fence hasn’t moved/pitched, nothing. Excellent stuff. Worth the price.
One year is a short amount of time.
2 things. First, I'm not convinced about the foam preventing or resisting the post rotting. Post rot occurs right at ground level where oxygen and moisture meet. What you have holding the post underground won't matter much. Second, no way in hell a skidsteer could "shear" off even a mediocre quality 4x4 post. The tensile strength of wood is incredible. I don't think a very large crane could successfully rip a 4x4 apart if it were pulling straight on without any side loading. I think it's weird that Matt or especially Kyle even contemplated the possibility that a skid steer could pull it apart. I have to think they both know better.
95thousandroses agreed it would have to be embedded at least 20 feet deep to resist uplift forces and pulled out with a large excavator not a bobcat.
95thousandroses - if he was correct in his terminology, that it’s a polyurethane foam, that is indeed a non-porous _”closed cell”_ foam so it would keep the water out...
then any water going down the grain of the wood would be trapped at the bottom, soggy wood is not happy wood.
it might only be effective if the foam extended above grade. And the foam top edges were sloped away from the post so as not to hold water. I can' imagine foam working well above grade and in the elements like the Sun and critters.
Or someone got paid to go along with these shenanigans?
Just south of Houston,Tx, they have Black Gumbo dirt, we just use a 3 foot length of 5 inch pipe, cut long ways in half, sharpen both sides, weld a cap on one end, mount a 3 foot T handle, where ever you want to put a fence post, pour a gal of water at that spot, wait a couple of minutes, then take your tool, and twist it around as your going into the soil, when your down to the bottom, push the tool into the open area on the tool to make soil stick to the pipe, lift it all out at one time, take the pole stick it in the perfect round hole, take a rod compactor and pack just a little around the post, I put many,many fences in this way, The one I installed at my place , 1000 foot, spaced at 10 foot each, still looks great, 27 years later. A old farmer showed me how to do this, when he saw me using a post hole digger, I guess sometimes its good to have crappy soil, makes for good fences.
Charles Miller
I'm trying to envision your method but still lost. I guess I may still be slightly impaired from last nights drinking. Do you have a video or a link to one that can be viewed? I understand processes better by seeing than I do by trying to comprehend from reading. Thanks much for your input.
80lb bag of concrete $2.49 @ homedepot
even the expensive stuff is only 8... IDK why they quoted a full yard of concrete LOL
EL c
60 lb Quickcrete ready mix bag is 3.25 pr bag unless you buy 120 bags then it is 2.65 per bag at home depot in so cal.
They’re talking about having a mud truck come and do the pour. When you’re doing 20+ posts for a barn you’re not going to mix all your own concrete.
Exactly
10 bags of 50s, 1 yard.. 7 bags of 80 for a yard... Shlepping all tat nonesense around is a bunch of b.s.. 60 -80 to ship it to the site.. That's $100 to get it there, then moving it to the post...
Way cooler and has a strong hold because it expands tight to, rather than forming to the hole.
Great video. After watching I quickly flew to the comments to see both the foam experts fighting with concrete experts and of course the people fighting over the price of concrete. Once again I am not disappointed. Just am frankly surprised none of the comments ended up political or religious. So plus one for that.
I used this product on my in-law's fence. Good stuff. 36 posts, 3.5 gallons of each part, bell shaped holes.
That bagged version is stupid. Buy it in jugs.
Then watch fence blow in the breeze
Mike McKinley not if the hole is bell shaped.
For those viewers who aren't clear, Mr. Stumpenhorst is obviously a contractor who does this type of work for a living. He doesn't buy one bag of concrete to set a post or two, he works on sites where they install enough posts to require a concrete mixer truck. Compared to that expense, this type of product is big savings.
Kyle test this yourself. And also do it with a chain hoist or crane so it’s pulled vertically cuz that bobcat looks like a radical lift so the machine snapped the post and not the lift.
I’ve used this stuff. I imagine it’s good for things like fence posts, or posts that have near perfect vertical loading, but if there’s any kind of twisting moment on the post, it doesn’t hold like concrete. I built a wind chime holder which looks like a cross, with one arm 18” long, and the other 36” long. It sits 36” into the ground an 8’ above ground. Once I hung the chimes, it went out of plumb.
Put in 3.5 inch screws that protrude out 2 inches and then drill a bunch of 1 inch deep holes (half inch or 1 inch diameter)... along the 2 feet length of post that goes into the ground.. these voids and protruding screws create teeth that grab onto the foam. I also coat it with a paint to protect it from the water... Bitch is not moving especially if you go 2-3 feet deep.
Don't put the post in the ground. Use concrete in the hole and then iron in the concrete and then the pole on top of the iron.
Ikr. That's how I do it. I get it though. This is for guys who are not doing a full on build but just a quick deck. They wanna set the post, frame out and then cover. Collect the check and move on
john smith lazy ass workers use this crap and damn this guy showing it as a acceptable product. I can’t count the number of times I have had to clean up after people who use this shit
Not sure those companies are using this per cost to concrete mix at 3-9 per bag and 10-15 per bag per post for the Fast2k, but it does not do well long term in compressive type structure post in ground, it is more for such as fence. mailbox, sign, and other such posts.
I set the iron in the concrete. If the post rots out, I can pull the post and replace it in the iron. Hardly rocket science.
That's how Walpole Fence makes theirs.
www.walpolewoodworkers.com/fence-gates.aspx
$$$$s
I used this stuff on my personal fence post, Oz wrapped aluminum posts. This stuff is great if it is warm outside (at least 80 degrees or so.) but if you are setting posts in cold weather concrete still wins . Glad to say I used both concrete and this product and they both provide equal strength, honestly the foam set posts felt more rigid.
Why isn't foam ok for cold weather? I'm about to have a company use this under my enormous shed in Alaska. It is super popular here.
It’s 2am and I’m deep in TH-cam... this was on my recommend for whatever reason and I watched the whole thing. Cool product!
Griffin Kerwin fucking same dude wtffffff
On the farm we put posts in heavily compacted dirt. Half my fence was done this way 20 years ago. The backyard neighbour had to have concrete. 15 years later, I have a rotted post, and now have to get the concrete out of the hole. Compacting the dirt takes a while, but the post can be replaced easily. I believe this foam will outlast a post, if kept from UV, and I"ve read gasoline will melt it when the time comes.
When I re-roofed my cathedral ceiling cabin, I found the original roof had about a quarter inch of foam against 2 X 6 tongue and groove cedar roof planking. Carpenter ants had carved our a nest in the foam. It seems that foam makes an ideal nest for carpenter ants. We had to replace one 2 X 6 cedar plank too because the ants did not limit their tunneling to the foam though that appeared to be the point of entry of the ants.
Fabulous product today, what's it going to be like in 10, 15, 20 years? Does the foam breakdown? Is it UV proof?
The top of it will be buried so no UV should ever touch it.
It will most likely decay leaking some sort of horrible toxin into the ground that will cost thousands to clean up. By then all the necessary licenses and permits will be set in place by the government which will be required just to clean up this crap.
JourneyTotheTruthandTotalRandomness
This is not recyclable and when finished its useful life it will be an environmental issue..... forever.
Concrete has its costs but then when crushed it can be totally recycled.
UV proof for something underground?? Lol
So coating the post is just BS?
Years ago I worked for a guy who used pea gravel to set fence posts. It worked very well and after packing it down and covering it with dirt it was rock solid. The reason he did it was it made it much easier to replace down the road. Also very cost effective.
I like Kyle and his TH-cam channel, but I disagree with his comment that concrete rots posts. All the rotted post that I have dealt with had the rot just above the top of the cement and the cement top was below the ground surface. The part of the post down in the cement was OK. When I set posts I build a small cone of concrete around the post above the ground surface.
Im actually worried about this product sealing the post and making it retain water and causing it to rot. Concrete will suck the water out of the post.
Maybe it’s just experience that I’ve lived... but I’ve always seen the rot about 3-6” below the concrete... over time the posts becomes basically separated and sitting there in the hole. Structurally it probably isn’t going anywhere, but uplift is the issue. This exact reason is why I tore down a shed at my house... I’m only speaking from experience, Matt is the science expert
Crashz28 this stuff will rot the post and the foam breaks down in a few years.
RR Buildings Thanks for the input. I am also not a scientist, but I can see the rot occurring a few inches below the top of the cement if water can get to it. If the wooden post is completely covered by cement the water should not be able to penetrate into the wood for rot to start. In addition to the barrier formed by the cement, the high pH of cement will help prevent fungus (which causes rot) from being able to survive.
I first saw you channel when you built Jimmy Diresta’s shop. I watched the whole series and really enjoyed it.
@@RRBuildings hey man - love your channel too!
I've used the Sika product for fence posts. It's easy, clean, and fast setup. No mixing concrete and needing to clean up.
Awesome seeing you guys together. Aside from Ave, you two guys are the only other 2 people I actually watch religiously. Living in Texas and raised in the Quad cities... Matt and Kyle are all you need to watch for craftsmanship and building science.
A similar product is called Sika Post Fix. I used it in 2013 to replace a post. Located in Toronto Canada. 7 years on, it is still rock solid!
Utility companies use this for telephone poles, so it must be strong with a pole 50' in the air and constant wind loads on it from all sides.
Yup your 100% right! This product came from those guys! Little difference in chemistry but yes, the same guys!
@@chetlangford2144 not in my city
@@thewarzoneking I heard they built your city on Rock and Roll
Two of my favorite TH-camrs. I love watching Kyle's videos!
The problem with this is how light it is, I used it on my fence at home and the wind blew it right out of the ground because there is no weight holding it in the ground. It does set very quick and hard but not effective for anything that involves and weight 😂
Did you back fill? Also, you may need to create a bell shaped hole then back fill.
Probably not deep enough
Another blogger (who's NOT trying to sell this product) did a test and showed that the foam shrinks after setting up, leaving the post wobbly and gaps with the surrounding soil.
RR is the best!
yea, kyle is a first class builder
Thanks guys appreciate it
beautiful workmanship kyle.
i hope you can forward your work ethics for future generations.
In the UK we coat the bases of submerged posts with bitumen before fixing down = no rot. Above ground level, we then flaunch the concrete into a small pyramid so water runs straight off and doesn't sit there rotting the timber.
Be interesting to know how long it last before it starts breaking down?
About two years, unless you compress it in some way first (like applying a lateral load) and ruin it. It's almost the exact same as GreatStuff foam. Go get yourself a can of that GS, and make yourself a little sample. Let it cure, then see how resilient it is to damage. Not very. Never ever ever use it for something structural; like a deck.
Now that's some cool high tech stuff right there !! Way to go Matt showing us the cutting edge !!
question, what about the impact foam will can do to the environment (soil)?
Used this foam product on part 200 ft fence. My brother picked some up as a test... A year and a half later, we replaced a 80 ft section that we used it on, every post that had the foam stuff in it needed pulled and we put concrete in it. 1 problem with this is setting. You have to make sure you 100% secure the post in place with bracing, much more secure than with concrete, before adding the foam. The product will begin to push the post in various directions as it begins to set so we basically had to monitor it for 10 minutes or so. The second problem is coming back to redo it. I will say the ground seemed to contain alot of water in the area, but the concrete didnt seem to have the same issues.
That’s so awesome, I’ve been following both of you guys for a while and never knew y’all knew each other!! 😂.
Technically they didnt know each other until they met the very day this video was made
I've used a very similar product to set 80 foot fiberglass polls in a baseball stadium with 1500 lb of Lights hanging off them. That was about 10 years ago and the polls are still standing true and Plumb today. I used some of that product to set my fence posts about 6 years ago and they are unbudgeable. This is an amazing product for all you non-believers you got to get with the times.
indyseven packing dry concrete would have work just as well and would have been much faster.. New inventions should be easier to use and less expensive than what you already use.. until it is as cheap as concrete fuck a bunch a Foam
Cool stuff, I’ve used it once and it worked swell 👍
Hi 1806StoneHouse. This is Edson Fariello with H. B. Fuller, the manufacturer of Fast 2K, the product that Matt and Kyle demonstrated. Thank you for the testimonial!
Fake review
The real question is why concrete fence posts (the actual posts themselves) are not easily available in the US. It's nuts to put wood in the ground where it will (eventually - 20 years for treated wood?) rot and or get eaten by termites. Put a concrete fence post in the ground and it will last, well, for ever, and with some judicial hole digging and compaction of soil you might not even need to use extra concrete to secure it in place.
Make the fence posts in a mold that produces a H-section (with some lateral holes) so fence panels can be slotted in and you have a much more long-lasting fencing system.
Typical convention sales pitch. Over hyped, over priced and full of holes. Pass.
CK_32 full of holes, literally
It's amazing that they're friends because this guy is known to be a quack. How he teaches to diy renovate rentals by spending more than the rental homes are worth making unnecessary overpriced upgrades to them.
Yeah its all bull! Way way over priced
Tell me about your personal experience using it.
Kinda skeptical taking advice from someone who checks to see if a vertical post is level. I'll stick to concrete
I considered using this foam for a mailbox post two summers ago. You got to love no lifting and mixing bagels of concrete. I had recently had knee replacement and didn't want to over do it. But living where the frostline is 3 ft. and digging with just a shovel my hole would be so wide beyond the 4 x 4 that it would take close to three of those foam bags. I could have used a sonotube, not cheap, but I wasn't convinced it would as strong as concrete to stand up the sometimes 4 feet of heavy snow winged at it from plows without the concrete's weight. Had I had a post hole digger and kept the hole narrow I might have gone with it. I can see a real use for it in locations where getting concrete to the location is difficult or time is a factor.
2 fence installers I know have tried stuff like this both had to tear down the fence and re-set the posts in concrete. One told me The plus side was that it shrunk enough that the post pulled clean out of it, and the foam pulled clean out of most of the holes in just a few pieces.
Waste of time and money. Concrete is cheap and not that difficult.
That's the problem. I tried the foam once. It eventually shrinks. Terrible product. Concrete is cheap and reliable.
So the backhoe test was bs?
@@dewildest
LOL
Listen, I've worked in construction long enough to know that if something actually works, it gets wide adoption pretty quick, especially if it saves money. And in construction, time usually costs more than any of the materials you're working with. But the kicker is, it has to work and be reliable, or else it just stays niche.
I used this stuff yesterday installed a new letter box pole and such. This stuff seems to be really a great solution ! It’s easy , fast and really sturdy! And cheap
I think for simple projects like I did, or even small fences would be ideal. Stuff really works, also want to add to this comment?!!
Make sure you dig your holes properly ... stuff really works
Local electric coop uses something similar to set power poles. I have been following Kyle for some time now. So far, I can not recall seeing him put posts in the ground. Instead, he goes to great length to accurately set Simpson Strong Tie hardware in site cast concrete piers. I don't think this foam is adaptable to Kyle's current building methods. No matter what technique you use to set pressure treated wood posts in post hole you are going to get rot and insects. I hope Kyle was playing along for the sake of the video and not thinking about cutting corners for the sake of a couple of bucks.
Steve Hansen I’m not going to be building our structures with posts in the ground ever again... I asked if a metal bracket similar to ours could work in such an application and they said no. There is not enough surface area to bond too. I however agree it is a super cool method and adaptable to tons of other specific trades as in fence and deck builders.
When I first saw this foam stuff some 5 or 6 years ago I took a look at it and did not see any way of using anchors in it as it was only shown as for, definitely would not use it on a set-in-ground type post structure aside from fence and deck as it lacks the compressive strength to hold up heavier structures which concrete is perfect for with use of brackets such as what Kyle uses from Midwest Permacolumn.
Would a different type of bracket be better, say the top of your current bracket but the bottom part being set in the form being an I-beam or similar? The issue would then be you need custom brackets.
Kyle does top notch work. Great channel. Learn a lot from him.
Lmfao that’s why you use pressure treated wood for post and concrete is less then $3 for a bag these guys full of it
Exactly right, I wouldn't want these clueless "experts" building me a house.
You can buy this stuff in bulk if you are doing more than one or two posts. Home Depot has "5-post" (worth) jugs for $40. A "15-post" kit is $122. Admittedly, I don't have experience with this foam, but this looks like a huge resource-saving product. The bag of concrete might only be $3, but how much more is invested in pouring concrete: water bill, tools, time spent mixing, time spent hauling 80 lb bags, wear and tear on the body, worker-comp claims, etc.? If you are 115-pound lady trying to DIY at home, or a solo-maintenance worker (with an endless backlog of tasks to complete), trying to fix a broken fence, this product looks far-preferable to concrete. Even if you are a bulk-builder/construction, this seems a lot easier to buy the foam parts in bulk, and pay one person to mix and pour (handling gallon jugs), as opposed to paying 1 or more people, plus a mixer truck & driver, water, higher injury-risk, etc. to pour lots of concrete.
I agree for the most part! However, and it won't matter in all situations. I have slid a million posts out of the ground in concrete and the concrete stayed. Also had customers decks sink because the didn't drop a rock or two in the hole before the post and concrete. Then you also have "ground contact" and "sub contact" posts. big difference.
Open cell foam sucks up water like crazy, so the post will turn into a sponge.
Edward Lahr It’s not open cell it’s closed cell.
I have used this product. im a builder in Pennsylvania and we have to poor concrete under the posts at 4' deep, then we fill preferably with 2b stone or the existing soil, this is code for building a post building or a deck. I dont know why you would ever waste the time or money to poor concrete around a post plus it would be way more difficult to keep your post in position and level. I have used this product to set a aluminum yard fence because it was raining and our dirt was too muddy to work with.. had to get it done! anyway week later homeowner wasnt happy the fence was not strong so we dug all the foam out of these holes and used concrete (it was a nightmare)
$30 a hole is comparable to concrete? an 80 lbs bag is six bucks...
Yeah, and there are 45 bags of that stuff in 1 yard of concrete. He uses 1/3 yard concrete per post so 15 bags worth which comes to $60-$100 depending on the brand. Or as he said in the video he pays $120 a yard which comes out to $40 a post.
@@Mark_Cook yeah I heard what he said.. but that one bag is equal to about a bag of cement mix .. which is 6 bucks.. and 10-15 for a bag of foam
how much is a workers comp claim when one of your crew bulges or bursts a disk?
As somone who has manually caried hundreds 80lbs bags down a +45° slope for some jobs, somthing like this could save a lot of money where you don't expect it. There is also the delivery cost of the concrete due to the large weight. Then the logistics of trying to mix and pour it on a slope like that. Not to mention as other have said any injury claims which are not at all unlikely in this type of situation, if not harm to yourself (try and tell me your back is 100% what it was after carrying 100+ bags of concrete on rough terrain.)
Now imagine instead of spending half a day paying several workers to haul all the concrete into place, along with all the mixing and pouring equipment, then actually mixing it on bad terrain and pouring it, vs litterly having one guy carry ALL the foam in one go, maybe two, no extra equipment required. Done and poured in an hour tops and you're onto the next task. Saving that kind of time on labor adds up BIG TIME.
They ended up saying he would pay 30 a hole but he didn't say how many bags all I herd was 3 or 4 so let's say
He bought 3 bags at 10 each but the price could also be 3 bags at 15 each
So it's either (30-45 for 3 bags)
Or (6 dollars a bag for 3 bags so $18 of concrete.) In some cases it would be cheaper if concrete is cheap and ur only mixing a small batch. But to save time and labor these would save you so much if you just do it yourself and it would be really easy overall.
I used this for setting a couple mailbox posts and it worked great. One bag for two posts and they were solid within an hour or so, could've been sooner but that was when I checked back on it. I think what a lot of the concrete guys are forgetting is the average homeowner probably doesn't want to deal with the mess and prep of concrete, especially on a small scale. If I could buy 6 bags of this to set some posts for a deck, then I don't need to make a mess mixing or lose a wheelbarrow. Fwiw, I'm fully in support of concrete and would need to be convinced to use this on a large building.
Along with the mess of concrete there is also the weight, the back breaking job of mixing. I know some people dry set fence posts but that just seems lazy to me. I use concrete on my fence about 27 years ago and it has held up, even through hurrican winds. I am now in need of some repair and because I am older I am considering this foam due to the reasons I mentioned.
Don't lie Matt, that shot to the face hurt like hell. lol Here is my hypothetical: Say you're setting post for a back deck and you have a market garden down slop on the grade. Has there been any testing for chemical leaching into the water table?
Good point. At least with concrete you know it’s safe
My two favorite TH-cam channels together! You guys need to collaborate on a post frame house. That would be epic!
$3.50 an 80 bag of concrete. $15 a bag of "60lb" foam. Yeah nowhere near cheaper. Average fence is 20 posts. $230 difference
you forgot time=money. less time mixing and setting the first job and you're already on to your second job by the time the first job is set
Good point Travis, most of the positive reviews here are fake and by same person. You can tell by the writing style. Another company paying someone with profiles to engage customers who have don’t have knowledge of construction
Travis Hueg
I’ve sure the foam product before. I’m not certain it was this one. It was very expensive and it didn’t take long before you could wiggle the posts. Concrete is way better.
I've used the Sika foam before. Good for a quick replace and repair. A whole fence line though? Nah, Ill stay with concrete.
The polyurethane foam will also lock in and trap any moisture. The post needs to be able to dry out and generally the post rots right at the top of the concrete where the moisture is trapped(collar rot). A well tamped post using the dirt you dug out to set the post is ready to be built on immediately. Regardless, I still prefer Kyle’s method of having no post below grade for anything other than a mailbox post and fence post.
Can foam be damaging to environment? Small particles being released or CFCs?
Yes, but I promise you that it is far less environmentally destructive than concrete. Concrete productions is actually one of the biggest producers of green house gasses on the planet.
Literally 2 of my favorite TH-camrs. So how about that collab?!
Way more expensive than concrete, a bag of concrete(60lbs) is about $4 this stuff is over 3x that
Sakrete at 3.10 for me for 60 pounds versus Sika Pro at 11.97 a bag per post is more but the Sika is easier to handle and such. The bag of cement would be enough for a few holes at least, all I really need is the lower half to be encased in either. but there are other products out there offering better post protection for in the ground construction.
Joshua79C C if you can’t lift a bag of concrete you need to hit the gym. 60 pounds is a bag of dog food. Products like is are for lazy ass contractors and homeowners
There’s more to concrete than just the cement...
He was comparing to concrete delivered off the truck. This foam is a huge labor savings compared to mixing quikrete on site by hand or in a mixer. Seems adequate for fences and decks that aren't elevated too much.
Though Quickrete is supposed to work fine for posts by just pouring it in dry and then pouring water in over the top. I can't bring myself to do that, must pre-mix so I know it all is going to harden evenly, but I'm sure it works fine given it is just for stabilizing the post, not for some structural or long lasting surface.
I'm stoked to see you both in one video. You both are aces.
Foam.... not very eco friendly, not a fan. Another reason company’s cheap out on shit that can and will have a huge impact in the future.
We going have microscopic bits of foam in our dirt.
Concrete isn’t any better
@@stevester189 concrete is just bits of rock... How's that bad.
Skyler Bicknell but what do they use to make said concrete, limestone they are digging up the earth for limeston by the truckload that doesnt seem any more “eco friendly” to me but, to each their own
@@nutmeg9005 Its from the earth.. Going into... The earth...............
You evil boys - now I'm addicted to yet another TH-cam channel! Just spent an hour watching Kyle building a garage - now I want a garage I don't even need!!! ;)
Phylis Maddox awesome thanks
Glad you could find another great channel! What do you think of an RR and Risinger collaboration?
Love the idea! Hope you guys can do one!
Great more plastic in nature. Didn't we passed this stage
I checked the Amazon reviews after seeing several bad reviews here but most Amazon reviews were very positive and by people having used the product. I live in the California desert so moisture not a big issue here and I'm doing the job by myself. I'm going to give it a try.
Sad to see this product getting any endorsement from credible builders.
They use this on telephone poles. Lol.
I know this product is really bad.
FWIW, I'm a fencing contractor and I've got a cheat code. I like to use no mix fast setting concrete. Level the post to a mason line, pour the dry mix into the hole, add the water, hard in 20 minutes, hang in 4 hours. Square, plumb, and true everytime.
That's a 2.5 bag of expensive pollution. No thanks
you're a 180 pound bag of expensive pollution too
@@asdsafasf3
Except he's actually pollution, not just some pollution calling something else pollution.
You have no idea of how polluting making concrete is then.
I like it....I have used the Dricore subflooring that was in the booth next to them
all about marketing. how to sell PU foam with ripoff prices.
As fence builders, we have often been curious about this product. The cost has been the initial thing holding us back from trying it. Our other concerns have been the longevity and the ability to make adjustments to the post as needed when you get down the line and have to go back 3,4, or 5 previous posts to make a minor height or line adjustment. I would totally be for this in smaller projects or for posts that are stabilized and not going anywhere like a deck. I love the idea of the lighter and easier to handle product. Sackrete gets old after a while. One if these days I'll try it out....
Work is fun... fake review
No way in hell that foam stays intact while a skid steer or backhoe shears off the treated 4x4.... Also 3 60 lbs bags of mix isn't anywhere near 1/3 of a cubic yard.
Add 3+ inch protruding screws to the base of your post along with drill hole voids to give the foam teeth to grab onto. The ground is holding the post. Reason why concrete is holding a post is because it is liquid and fills the grooves in the wood to create teeth to hold it. The ground is your strength. You’re trying to make your post “one” with earth.
@@swatisquantum sorry man but as an equipment operator it does not matter if you put 3-inch protruding screws at the base of of the post. Out of the hundreds of treated 4 x 4 fence post in concrete that ive torn out, not a single one sheared off unless it was rotten. Most fence post will always come out with the concrete foam or whatever used to Anchor it still attached to the one end of the fence post. You don't make it one with the ground, you make it one with the fence post. It's concrete doesnt hold in the ground to the point that it shares off, foam definitely will not.
@@c_b8s4 fair point. Makes sense.
Kyle’s an absolute BEAST of a builder, that’s a fact.
Doesn't look like it's gonna be so good for the environment 🤪
did my whole fence with the foam . didn't have to wait for concrete to dry over night did the job in one day best product ever thanks
And did the posts stay solid? Or did the foam shrink?
What are the environmental affects of this product?
You can buy these two part foams of various densities in bulk and mix it yourself. I have built a few boats and used a marine grade version to fill spaces for flotation (less dense than the stuff shown here). It is easy to work with. Much cheaper than the pre-measured bags.
Another worthless gimmick to speed up construction time and put money in the contractor's pocket while screwing the homeowner in the long run.
Just add this to the list along with Pex, Sharkbite, MDF, and OSB sheathing
@@markanthony3275 So you still use planks for sub floors and walls? Pex pipe and shark bites are awesome. They make sense from all sides; less trouble for the plumber, more reliability for the home owner.
Yeah, I do...I'm renovating my house right now...the least I would go with is plywood.
@Mark Anthony OSB is not that bad. I used it in my shop for the wall sheathing. It's the only structural application I would use it for. Roof and floors are all plywood.
In 15 years all the failures will be hilarious
I used the Sika bags for a lot of posts, they are awesome and fast too. 20 mins and its ready to work with.
The way he says the O in “foam” and “post” hurts my ears.
I have very few rotted posts some are 40+ years 4x4 cedars in my yard holding up still hard to believe I put in as a kid this would have been awesome back then!
We set a deck with the commercial version. Great stuff
We’ve used similar product they sell at Home Depot for our fence posts. It works great. Super fast
FYI your math is way off. If one bag replaced a 60lb bag, that would be 0.45cf. There are 27cf in a cubic yard of concrete. Kyle said he uses 1/3 of a yard for a hole. Which would be 20 bags of this stuff. Not 3-4. Which equates to $200. Where as concrete is $120/yard, or $40 to fill one hole.
So nowhere near comparable in price.
I thought the same thing. If he is using 1/2 of a yard of concrete per hole, he is doing something wrong....I haven't one decks in years but maybe 2 to 2 1/2 bags per hole at the most... it sure as hell isn't 1/3 of a yard of concrete
@@TheRonKlimo
He doesn't do decks. He does massive post frame barns that require large footings.
Wow, another great foam product. I recently learned about a foam block that’s been used in Europe for a while. High R-Value, much less labor intensive than concrete block. It uses some kind of poly sealer in between. Doesn’t break down in water. Only a week later, I saw it being used for a million dollar build.
What about nail polish remover?
yay! lets use even more plastic made from oil in our environment instead of rocks, yay!
Yeah except concrete is super heavy and it takes a ton of fuel to deliver it. Plus the cement releases a lot of co2 as it cures.
@@XcAhMpWnEr co2 is not the problem you stupid idiots!
I used this foam to install a mailbox and it is very sturdy and it kept the mailbox post in place better than concrete. It’s very convenient and much cleaner than concrete.
no its not concrete > foam
Will always use concrete. That foam will break down in 6 years and posts will be loose. Always use concrete, cheaper and stronger. Lazy ass contractors use this crap and then honest contractor get to clean up after this bs
you missed the part where you pour to allow it to stop set below the top of grade so it can covered in dirt and grass which will protect it from sun degradation and make it more appealing than seeing it sticking up out of the ground.
What you are not understanding is moisture from the ground degrades it. Seen dozen of these posts become loose after a few years. Lazy people use expanding foam instead of concrete. I missed nothing. These products don’t last, it works long enough for the installation warranty a company offers ends
the post will dry rot less than 6 years in cement because it retains water
edmundo oliver stop talking you look stupid. Concrete doesn’t retains water. It is a porous material allowing the water to drain away from the post, it doesn’t retain it. Placing your post on gravel at the base of the hole allows for proper drainage of the water from around the post. Stopping any chance of it rotting, gravel base is even more important with clay soil.
Zack - you could offer this knowledge and advice, win friends and influence people, without the insult. It doesn't make you sound smarter when you put someone down - it makes you mean.
I have a deck I, building in the next two months and see this as my way of replacing the concrete to have a longevity for my posts. Question is it ok to pick up the post to get it under it for even more protection ?
Nice Combo video. Love RR Buildings AND the Build Show!!
Neat product, i don't know enough about concrete to say if these are a decent replacement. But I can definitely see where this would be useful. Especially if you were building in an area with limited concrete.
I want to try this out on a shed project. Seems worth a shot.
Kyle is awesome and love his buildings
What a clash of Titans!
Two high quality people in one video
Wow, wonder how this worked in cold , think of all the cabin builders that could dig , set and build a small cabin in a weekend. And cost savings, as well as weight savings in transit. Really cool
I use Secure Set same 2 part liquid you mix from containers. This concept works awesome. I will continue to use this stuff until I need to pour slabs for steps etc....
Just a couple necessary tips make sure what you are setting is straight /level/plumb with either some rocks or pieces of wood a corner level works great. Mix the liquids quickly and pour completely around your post. If the Secure Set comes above and hardens above the hole ground. Use a sharp utility knife to remove the excess.
Fake review!!!
Discovered Kyle about a month ago and have watched all his videos. Love his attention to detail Wish there was a Kyle around here to put up a building.
I did a test with one post using this method and its a no go. Followed the directions perfectly. Came back 2 days to see. The foam had pulled away from the hole edges and away from the post. Pulled the post out with my hands. Its the good old back breaking concrete I guess. I really wanted this to work real bad.
Kyle is the man on post-frame buildings up north !