How to Use Pâte Fermentée (Old Dough) | Full Detailed Pre-ferment Guide
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 เม.ย. 2023
- What sets pâte fermentée apart from other types of pre-ferments is that it does not involve any extra work. It starts its life as a whole bread dough that is fully mixed. Before the dough starts bulk fermentation a portion of it is pinched off and left to ferment (usually in the fridge). This pinched-off portion is the pâte fermentée. It can sit in the fridge for a day or up to a couple of weeks. It can be used at any point.
As a result of the pre-ferment being pinched off of the main dough in the very first instance, the final dough is smaller than it should be. This will only happen once. Going forward, the pâte fermentée will be added to a whole dough recipe therefore increasing the total mass of dough at first, but once the pâte fermentée is pinched off again after mixing, the whole dough will have the correct mass once more.
While the creation of the pre-ferment required removing a portion of dough, the continued use the pre-ferment simply replaces new ingredients with old ones.
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I am one of your followers from Saudi Arabia: and you have the right to include automatic subtitles on TH-cam❤
I've been using pate fermentee method for the last couple of months, it works great. The only difference is I cut my piece of dough off after the fermentation stage. Also if you know you're not going to be able to bake, like I will be unable to for the next two weeks, you can freeze the pate fermentee like regular dough, and thaw it out when you're ready to use it.
I have thrown excess sourdough starter that has been sitting in the fridge for weeks into a regular loaf before now - it adds a ton of extra flavour
As per my comment in your last video, I mixed a 10 day old Pâte fermentée with the 4 bread ingredients for standard loaf. I then refrigerated it for 48 hours undisturbed. Then I took it out and did two fold and shapes and a 2hr rise before baking.
Although I did not have a comparison as you always do , I thought the flavor and texture were terrific.
Also, this morning my wife told me I was getting fat…. I suppose a true test that my bread is getting better….
I can taste it even just by reading the method 😁 Nice one!
Haha you better start getting more steps in to compensate 😅
Ha for sure.
Thanks for your reply.
That's really great! I don't have time to make a loaf today, but I might kick off the process and just make the tiny pre-ferment 20% by itself and pop it in the fridge to use later this week. Thanks for sharing this technique!
I’ve been looking for this method for yea4s to try to duplicate my aunts bread. This is basically the method she used EXCEPT that she left her dough ball on a plate on the counter to rise and dry out. Then when she was ready to bake again she would break the ball up and soak in some warm water overnight. Then use that water/dough to make her bread the next day. Thanks much for this video!!!
This is perfect! I love that it's simplified by the ratios being exactly the same.
THANK YOU. This is so timely. You've answered so many questions for me.
Thank you for all the informative content you share. I've learned some great techniques from your channel. Appreciating and watching from Michigan!
I saw your video a year ago on the Pate Fermentee method and this works so well for me. Been using it on and off for a year. ❤😅
thank you for sharing your knowledge with us I watch all your videos. I used to be a hopeless bread baker, I try all your recipes and they are always a success. once I made a boo boo with a sourdough and ended up doing the same like you did now with your 'pate fermentee'. it was delicious, than you once again
Havent watched your videos since last year, really missed your tips. Always helpful👍
Cheers! 😎
This is my kind of bread making. Thanks for the idea.
Here in southern Spain we use MASA DEL MADRE what is similar but the starter is from rye flour and fresh ,, ecological grape juice. This starter will be used and only feed with a dough from all purpose flour and water and salt. Some families work with it on four generations. Yes they’ll freeze it in the summer and if it died for some reason, there is always a family member to pick up some, VIVA ESPAÑA.
👍
This sounds like a method for making (salted) sourdough starter to me (rye + juice base for easier start) and then not just feed with flour and water but salt, too (because it‘s feed with the made dough). Really interesting to see what types of dough is made in different parts of the world! ❤
Great explanation, Charlie! Thank you!
Definitely going try this for making pizza pâte fermentée to experiment to keep adding more flavor worth each pizza dough I make. I think you just helped me discover how I'll be able to make better tasting pizza with each pizza I bake. Plus, I finally bought high protein flour 12% so I am excited to see all this knowledge at work in my pea size brain work. 🥰🍕❤️
Very good advise, thanks
Muy buena explicación!!! Ahora sí que entiendo este prefermento! Gracias por enseñarnos! Me gustaría ver más prefermentos, como el polish y biga.
It looks like good method to save a few pennies on yeast. 😆 Recently I started to experiment with 100% hydration doughs. Last time I made 100% hydration whole wheat bread and it was so fluffy and spongy! Now I am fermenting the dough made from whole wheat and whole rye flour also with 100% hydration. I also learned how useful is folding the dough during cold fermentation. And after eating some white pizza at vegan Bakery in Warsaw I crave some pizza, marinara or bianca(without toppings). And speaking about pizza, while I was surfing in the net I found informations about u leavened pizza known as pizza scima from Abruzzo! Looks like there are many different breads waiting for and pate ferment may be useful. Thanks for the great video.
I am happy to subscribe to this wonderful channel, because I love baking, and I have benefited a lot from this channel
Great video.
I was so delighted to see you put a portion back into the fridge for next time.
If you keep the process up Lactobacilli will move into the Pâte Fermentée and then you will have something very special with regard to bread flavour.
Can I add for others? If the Pâte Fermentée is left in the fridge too long and becomes sour, that is just a natural build up of acids. Take a little of it, say 20g and make it up to say 100g with flour and water in the correct proportions and discard what is left over. This dumps a lot of the acid and off it goes again. The reason for doing this? Your Pâte Fermentée acclimatises to your kitchen, some local yeasts will creep in along with the Lactobacilli. The acidity, like vinegar is a preservative, so the P.F. is unlikely to go off as such.
Yes, yes, you resuscitated Flint like this after severe neglect. 😳
Getting enticingly close to a natural leaven eh? 😉
I do love the surprises you come out with.
And, an especial thanks for getting a vlog out on a Bank Hol.
As always it was a superb watch.
Cheers 👍
Cheers, Kevin! :)
I am curious to try this method with my starter. Would it work the same way? Could it remove the need for building a leaven and feeding a starter? That would certainly attract more people to sourdough bread making.
@@ChainBaker Gosh yes!
I was expecting you to make that connection - You miss nothing!
To my mind there is no need for starters at all. Just a rolling preferment, whether it's wild yeast or a poolish with instant yeast.
Just like your perpetual Old dough a poolsih or sourdough starter can be kept in the fridge, taken out, be given a feed and be ready to use after some six hours in a warm place. I warm the jar under a hot tap to get it kicked off after the fridge. Or, it can be taken from the fridge fed and left on the side in the kitchen overnight for a morning bake.
Two stages, starter and preferment is not really required.
Even turning a rye starter back into a white flour starter can be done easily. After the preferment has ripened keep say 50g back and feed it with the type of four for your next bake. say 50g Flour and 50g water. Then put it in the fridge where the yeasts and whotnots will sleepily chomp away. Then when using it again just feed it with the chosen four to the required weight +50g, put in a warm place and the cycle starts all over.
For belt and braces one of those 1" cube silicon ice cube moulds can be used to freeze portions of the starter in case of starter loss.
But to be honest there is little point. If a sourdough starter is started off using 50:50 wholemeal and rye flour a new sourdough starter can be made and be up and running in 48 hours. I think it might be the high level of available nutrients which makes it so quick. Then just take 50g and feed it with your preferred flour. Starters made with wholemeal flour, or which contain some rye are far more robust that those which only have white flour.
Just a quick myth bust: The idea of getting an old starter from some august place is nonsense. The yeasts in the flour you feed it with will displace those in the bought starter within one or two feeds and the local lactobacilli will do so too. Grain in the field is covered with wild yeasts, just like the vintners grapes. And, they are the yeasts which are appropriate to that grain and terroir.
Afterthought: Were the preferment given a full feed (sufficient for the next bake) before being put into the fridge then it would not need the feed and six hours on the worktop. The other week I hade a natural preferment ready to use and something came up and so I couldn't continue the bake. I put it in the fridge and just used it the next day straight from the fridge. It was absolutely fine. I reckon three or four days (maybe more) in the fridge and it would still have been good to use.
What I don't know is how long a starter having been given a full feed for the next bake, and then immediately being placed in the fridge, needs to be in there before it's ready again.
Sorry for the very long reply - Hopefully something in it is useful.
You continue to upend received knowledge, it's superb 😁
Cheers 👍
Your replies are more than welcome. I always learn something from you 😎
@@ChainBaker I was thinking the same thing!
WOW!! I could learn a LOT from you, Kevin...but, honestly, most of it is way above my level of comprehension. The Sciences were never my forte during my schooling, but I love to read all the comments from other members. Thank you for shedding more light on this process.
baking my first loaf with a pate fermentee today! also, i did the math to make my first loaf with 20% more dough so i could pinch off the correct amount for future loaves but still bake a full-size loaf the first time
Thanks for this!
I'm going to try this.
AAAAH finally some information on this! This was referenced in a bread baking anime as like a secret weapon of why one guy's bread was so good. I looked really hard to see if it was actually a real thing but they didn't say it was 'old dough' or 'pate fermentee' so I couldn't find anything.
Would you mind sharing the name of the anime? I love good cooking animes
@@Night_Rose_94 It's Yakitate!! Japan. Easily one of my favorite anime, its very creative and the author does a lot of due diligence in exploring different breads.
This could be ideal for any ad-hoc bake. Out of bread? Just grab your pate fermentee from the fridge.
I’ve been wanting to try this method to compare the taste to a poolish. I always use a poolish and it only takes a minute to make the night before. I like he always says. Use what works for you 👍🏽
I think that this will solve my problem of not being able to cold ferment that didnt work for me, this will for sure,tyvm
between this and sourdough there will be tasty breads in my house, vegan lady ;)
Thanks Charlie its like you have a crystal ball with your videos....lol
I use this method to most of my breads. I have a continuous pâte fermentée made from white flour for over 6 years. I use it for all kinds of bread. People tell me that it is the same as sour dough stater but it definitely is not. When I desire sour dough I take some of it And allow it to turn sour.
My grandma used to bake once per week two huge miche breads in her corn cob bread oven. The breads fed the whole family for a week. She always used pâte fermentee, kept in a jar in a dry cold corner of the cellar. If I remember well, the jar was just loosely covered with some linen. After one week the pâte was dehydrated, but it produced an amazing bread. Doesn't sound very safe if I think of it, but she did that for decades without any issue...
If you're talking about it being biologically safe (safe to eat) then I'd say it's probably as safe as any sourdough. The fermentation process is the preservative. Unwanted bacteria are kept out by the acidic environment. Mold might have been possible, but it should also be easily recognizable, so if needed, the moldy batch could be discarded. But if it was a dry, cold cellar, the likelihood of mold was probably very low too.
Most bacteria, yeast and molds are heat-sensitive and destroyed by heat at temperatures of 140-160°F (60-71°C). You'll bake your bread at temperatures significantly higher than that.
I love your videos, I learned a lot, thank you.
I was wondering if you could make a video about gluten free flour
and how to make recipes using substitutes for it (I have heard people using xanthan gum and psyllium husk).
Thank you for all your hard work.
I don't have any experience with gluten free baking yet. But I will definitely explore it in the future ✌
I used this to make panzarotti but didn’t use more yeast just the old dough slow fermenting in fridge dough was great when frying dough didn’t over rise was nice and crispy…thanks
Hello thank you for all what you bring to life! Great job! Question: When you after 12 or 24 already shape the roll or bake good in the REFRIGERATOR Do you need to bring it to room temp before baking? thank you
I usually bake right from the fridge. But leaving them out while the oven is pre-heating is also a good idea. You can get a better rise like that sometimes
"we preferment the whole dough, so you get 65% more flavor, per flavor"
Sure!
I was just thinking about making some dough :) :)
And now you can also make some "old dough" 👍
I just pulled out of the oven your Deli Rye with one twist. Scorched half the rye and all the caraway seeds. I've been doing bulk fermentation. I use .75reaerate
The Pate Fermetee has to act as a starter then to the main dough you add yeast. I would think this would go off fast, unless you're tossing it in the freezer?
You could certainly use it that way. Only then it would take a very long time to rise. That would produce a more flavourful bread in the end.
It can sit in the fridge for weeks without going off.
@ChainBaker, could one make a dough using a different preferment like a poolish or biga, then cut off a chunk of that to make a Pâte Fermentée? I wonder if that would jumpstart the process if someone wanted to develop more flavor in a shorter time
It would add a bit of flavour to the first loaf, but I don't think it would make any difference going forward.
@ChainBaker
Hi, first of all thank you so much for your videos they are a blessing and you're super thorough in your explanations and pleasant to listen to.
My question in this video is what do you do with the first main dough of the pate fermente? You did say it was smaller, but why divide the main dough and the pate-f before fermentation?
Can it not be done after 24hrs in the fridge? so you cold proof/ferment the entire dough and only then separate them, so you're not left with a bland first dough. Is it possible?
You could certainly separate it after bulk fermentation. It's up to you how you start off the process. Later, I would suggest pinching the piece off right after mixing, though.
@@ChainBaker
Thanks so much for the response! for some reason I didn't get the notification and only saw it when I returned to the video.
I am now a week after fermenting the dough, it smells good but doesn't look like the fermented dough you took out after 12hrs (Maybe because I didn't close the lid all the way to let some CO2 out). But, I wonder if it looks so puffed up because you put it in room temp for a while before shooting the video?
Could you maybe help me with this? Much appreciation!!
I wonder if the tangzhong or yudane method would bring anything to cold fermentation ?
It makes any bread softer, so it definitely would!
Great video! Does Pate Fermentee work when cold fermenting dough?
Definitely!
Hey there ! It’s ok to do cold fermentation with pate fermentee ? I usually do so with my favorite bread ,and I have have no idea if I should atop doing that if I use the preferment . Thank you ! P.s : I love all the content you have
Here's a video about it - th-cam.com/video/Emuu_SBHNJs/w-d-xo.html 😉
Can you explain why you have to be more careful with enriched doughs when you’ve let the preferment go really long?
Love your videos. Thanks for doing all of the experimentation and sharing it
I just don't trust eggs and milk sitting around for too long.
@@ChainBaker that makes a lot of sense! Thank you for the response
Listening to this; is Pate Fermantee, by the method, effectively cold pre-ferment sourdough? Just the starter & levain are kept together; then getting both fed & split when making the next. Or are there not important distinctions going on?
It should be commercial yeast dominated, so I would not say it's a sourdough starter. But the principle of use is how you described it 👍
Does the bread made from using the Pate Fermentee method approach sourdough taste and texture?
Kind of. But for an even better effect try this th-cam.com/video/3Jhe3BgAZwk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=iUaThZHb0NNNkzW9
I do the same but with all of the dough and only for 24 sometimes 48 hours, let it come up to room temp shape it, let it rise again in the pan then bake in a regular oven.
What if I make a dough with 500 grams flour and take 20% for pre ferment. Couple of weeks later I need to make 3 loaves x 500 grams? Thx for a brilliant Chanel that covers all the things other bake Chanel’s don’t.
If it's just a one-off, then I'd say make the pre-ferment separately so that you have the exact amount.
I have made bread using this method since I first watched the video a few weeks ago. I made the first batch of dough saving 20% and made two more batches of dough saving 15% each time thereafter and incorporating it into the next batch as per your instructions. These batches were made with 250 grams of flour. My problem now is, the bread is so delicious I want to double the recipe. Do I simply double up all the ingredients, incorporate the 15% that I saved previously then save 20% the first time I double up on the batch and 15% thereafter? That doesn't seem quite right as it seems i would need double the pate fermentè for the batch. Thank you for your help.
Double all the ingredients, add the pate fermentee as it is, knead it in, remove double the pate fermentee, and continue. The first loaf will have less pre-ferment in it, but that's ok. Alternatively, make a pate fermentee separately and use it that way.
getting away from the preferment is going to be a time saver. I just baked another two loaves of rye bread with prefermenting the rye flour first, next time i'll cold ferment the whole lot.
May I comment James?
Be careful with cold fermenting Rye Doughs with more than about 50% Whole Rye flour. Whole Rye flour is very high in enzymes like amylase. It can destroy the doughs starch structure and give you a heavy bread, if you do lengthy fermentations,
If you've not come across this look up 'Starch attack'.
Forgive me if your already aware of this. Cheers.
I didn’t know that man. Thanks for pointing it out.
@@jameswhite1450 No worries.
I bake with home milled wholemeal flour a lot. That too is high in enzymes when fresh milled. It is better not to do very long cold fermentations with it for the same reason.
FWIW the acidity in a sourdough leaven controls the amylase quite well. For this reason rye doughs in N. Europe are very often made with that sort of leaven.
Have a great day. :)
@@kevinu.k.7042 I never tried sourdough simply because you need to feed it and burb it.
Cheers
@@jameswhite1450 Yes, I fully understand.
But, there is a lot of overcomplication promoted by would be experts.
Charlie said that he intends to cover it in time and I think we will see much more straightforward methods.
I never do discards and I keep it in the fridge. It is as simple as this old dough video.
Anyway, we all make our own bakers choices. I shall leave you in peace .
Can you freeze the pate fermentee to extend it a bit? Say, let it ferment in the frig for a week then freeze it.
You could. Or you could just bake at least twice a month and not worry about freezing it.
I've been using this since last October, an average of two loaves a week. I take off 200g of dough from a 450g loaf, unless it's pizza of course.
What so diff abt pizza? Just curious
Apologies, I wrote this in a rush, I meant to say I also use this with pizza dough, it makes a huge difference to the flavour. I don't use cold bulk fermentation or cold final proof very often.
As usual, a nice explanation from chain baker. I've pointed a friend of mine to this channel as he wants to start baking.
What if we use the pate fermentée without the added yeast, I understand it will take longer to rise, but I am curious if it would yield better results
You can certainly do that. And, the longer you leave it fermenting between uses, the better it will raise your dough. If it were me though, when I mixed it in the dough, I'd leave it all the way through bulk fermentation and just cut out the portion for next time right before it's time to shape the dough for final proof. That way, the Pâte Fermentée will be as well developed as possible even before going in the fridge, so it will be even better at raising the dough when you use it next time. In fact, I've done this before, years ago. But now I just use sourdough starter and I haven't done a Pâte Fermentée for years.
David has answered quite well. The longer it rises the better the flavour. And in that case I would say you MUST pinch it off after bulk fermentation because there may not be enough yeast for it to ferment well in the fridge if you cool it down sooner.
I hear you Charlie however, there’s a convenient advantage in pulling out the Pate Fermentee at the time of mixing in that you have an easier time of watching the rate of fermentation in the small jar of PF. Regardless of the ambient temperature- hot, warm, cool, cold, or refrigerated; you can see how the dough is reacting at a glance of the PF jar.
Especially handy for a new baker like me.
Hello, could we omit yeast when we make a new batch and use only the pate fermentee?
Sure, but it will take a lot longer to rise the dough.
@@ChainBaker thank you 🙏
Wouldn't it be just as well to increase your whole dough by 20%, then just remove the pinch? Then you end up with the normal size loaf. Love your stuff. Been using this method for a while.
That's what I was thinking. It would make more sense to do it that way, since you have to do some math anyway. And my baking tins need to have the right amount of dough. I can't just remove 20% of the dough and still get a good size loaf.
It can be done either way. I just thought my method would be simpler since it does not require re-calculating the recipe.
Hello, can you do Pâte Fermentée with mother yeast(Sourdough Starter)? Instead of dry yeast.
Yes. It's no problem. Just make your sourdough bread as usual, and cut off the 20% of the final dough like he shows in this video. But sourdough starter is a sort of pre-ferment anyway, and the long fermentation times associated with sourdough ensure you get great flavor, so Pâte Fermentée isn't really needed. But you can certainly do it. I sometimes use recipes that I find for different breads, and convert them to sourdough. If the recipe calls for a pre-ferment, I still do it just to be following the recipe. I have a rosemary olive oil bread recipe that uses a pre-ferment that is like a Pâte Fermentée in that it has all of the four basic dough ingredients in it. I make that pre-ferment with sourdough, then also add more starter to the main recipe when I mix it.
I have not yet tried, but I am looking forward to giving it a go soon. It would cut the need for building a leaven and feeding a starter.
I'm assuming bread flour, not all-purpose flour is used? If I read the comments correctly, I can use instant yeast or regular yeast?
Bread flour, yes. You can use any yeast your prefer.
Instead of kneading the pre ferment in the dough, can I simply dissolve it in the water before adding the remaining flour?
It won't dissolve very well.
🫶🏼 the little cup of preferment - room temp or in fridge? ❤
Is this same as levain?
Fridge because it will ferment quite rapidly. It is a leaven in the sense that it will leaven the bread, but it has nothing to do with a natural leaven (sourdough).
What is the difference between this and letting your sourdough starter sit for 5 days and then using it?
A starter will bring much more flavour even after 1 day. But I'm not sure if you can use a starter exactly like a pate fermentee. I have not tried it yet.
How much pate fermentee to use in the final dough with a 2 week old pate fermentee? How does the portion of pate fermentee to use decreases with time?
I've never really thought about it. There is no rule. It's all up to your taste. Add as much as you like. Personally, I think it'll only taste better!
@@ChainBakerthanks :) really appreciate your feedback, on another note cold fermentation doesn't seem to improve flavour in my case, fridge temp around 4 C, is possible the chemicals in tap water? Yeast % around 0.5 or dependends on cold fermentation time, ive seend around the Internet Italian bakers using biga to create a ratio of 3:1 lactic acid to acetic acid fermentation, coul you do a video about this? Supposedly room temp ferment will increase lactic acid fermentation
Is there any reason this could not be done with sourdough instead of commercial yeast?
It can be done. In fact, sourdough does quite well as a Pâte Fermentée and can raise your dough without further yeast or starter added.
I have not tried it yet, but it would be amazing if it worked. No more building leaven or feeding the starter. I will definitely try it sometime soon.
I suspect the low enoculation from the Pate Fermentee without added starter would likely require a few extra stretch & folds and a longer bulk fermentation. I would love to see you do a video comparing a sourdough Pate Fermentee with and without adding starter. It would be an interesting experiment.
can i add no yeast in the main dough？
Definitely. It will take longer to rise. And you should then pinch the pre-ferment after bulk fermentation instead of the beginning.
is it ok to keep the preferment in the freezer instead of the fridge?
Sure I guess. But why?
@@ChainBaker i need to control my dough temperature. its too hot here. sometimes i use ice when mixing.
Ah, I see. Yeah keep it anywhere cold and it will be ok.
I am doing something similar to that with my sourdough.
I used to do the same. In fact, for a few months, I had my starter completely converted to a Pâte Fermentée and I didn't even keep a 'normal' starter during that time. I can't remember why I changed back, but I did, and I've been doing 'normal' 100% hydration sourdough starter for years now.
What type of yeast is the best to use?
The one which is the most convenient for you.
Mateusz gave the perfect answer!
how to do stringy breadcrumbs for fishing
I've never fished, so I can't imagine what it should be like. I always thought some regular white bread was used for that. I would imagine it's less hassle and cheaper just to go and buy it. Or do you need some special bread for fishing?
@@ChainBaker thinks for y ansewer
i head that milk bread have stringy crumb are more elastic for fishing i
It's like a sour dough starter. Is this correct?
Is it like levain?
I would say sort of. Sourdough starters are created through the naturally occurring yeast in the flour and air being housed and fed in a moist environment until they grow strong enough to create a leavening effect. Since this uses dry yeast it will be trained to have an initial higher concentration of the yeast strain S. cerevisiae, whereas sourdough starters will have multiple kinds of yeast a proliferating together (s. Cerevisiae also being one of the four most common to exist in a traditionally made sourdough starter).
I hope this makes sense.
Kind of, but only on face of it. A starter has wild yeasts and bacteria in it which produce a completely different bread in the end. Using a pre-ferment is one of the ways to try and mimic the effects of a starter, but it will not exactly like sourdough bread in taste or texture, especially if the main dough is not fermented for a very long time.
Could a pizzeria benefit from this by adding a few dough balls from a previous batch to todays batch of dough?
Definitely. I used to do that at work all the time.
Why to put yeast?
To save time. And to ensure that the next pate fermentee ferments effectively.
@@ChainBaker thanks
How isn't this just a sour dough starter?
There is no wild yeast or bacteria in it.
im gonna say he doesnt know what pinching a loaf means in english slang...lol
That's what you do after the bread is gone 😆