I think the biggest mistake from the air boss is not having altitude call-outs but that's it. The design of both planes put both in each other's blind spot.
Yeah, completely unqualified, a poor communicator, and he laid out a plan that put the planes at risk. You can’t really blame the pilots when they were told where/when to turn by someone supposedly having oversight of the whole parade… who then turned them into each other.
Came in to say, watch Pilot Debrief for an in-depth recap on this disaster and a better understanding of what went wrong and why the Air Boss was to blame.
I like air shows. My dad was a Marine serving 30 years. I was born on Cherry Point Marine Corp Base in NC and lived on bases in South and North Carolina, Tenn, Mass, Maine, Michigan, Texas, Nevada, California, and Alaska. I always loved the planes and helicopters. I’m so sorry for the loss of the pilots and crew plus the loss of the aircraft B17G Flying Fortress with 5 crew members and especially the P363F Cobra Fighter with only 2 in existence. Lack of clear communication with the Flying Fortress and the ground directing the pilots was the issue. I know flying in air shows is fun but clear concise communications is critical as shown by this accident. God bless the families who lost love ones. Thanks…
I really like how much time you take to make an introduction and backstory to everything before finally talking about the disaster in question the videos are about, as it adds all the necessary context and baseline to fully understand everything. It really sets the channel apart from all the rest that barely give any background information or story. I really liked the radio impersonations, it really added touch to the video. Also, the "kind of a mess" at the report part sounds so hilarious. Everytime you do this you catch us off-guard. Another great upload from our beloved Mr. MM. ❤
Point of clarification: The NTSB has *not* released their final report on this incident, just the various materials that are part of the investigation. So they have not yet issued a statement of probable cause. As several commenters have noted, many professional aviation analysts have concluded that a lot of the blame for this crash falls on the air boss. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB gives as probable cause when the final report comes out.
There are many very deep dives on the multiple causes of this horrible tragedy. Morbid Midnight always posts informative, well researched and high quality videos like this one, however it seems a lot of professional pilots make a very good case placing most responsibility towards the air boss rather the pilot.
If it was so well researched, why didn't it pin the blame on the air boss where it belonged, instead of blaming 'pilot error'. Poorly played. People will come away from this blaming the dead. The incompetent air boss only got the job due to his father being the longtime CAF air boss.
I love Morbid Midnight stories! Even if I’m familiar with the story, I like listening because he often includes more details. I absolutely love that he has no ads in his videos! The videos and narration seems to increase in quality each production. Keep up the good work MM!
He truly is the best channel. I cant even watch most youtube channels anymore because its nothing but ads every 5 mins and ruins the focus and vibe of the video
I used to wonder why such garbage was always on TV, and shy crappy sequel after crappy sequel set records in Hollywood instead of something new. Well, we know now. you DEMAND the same crap over and over again and you dislike anything new.
I went to the previous Dover show in 2022. Typical airshows are very structured and each performer follows a set routine they aren’t allowed to deviate from unless there’s some emergency. You’ll have a great time if this is your first.
Something that happens very frequently in War Thunder. In real life, death is the outcome. Reality is much harsher than video games make it out to be. I saw the slow motion video of this disaster and saw someone falling out of the tail-section of the bomber. Truly horrible.
It's a sad commentary about modern inability to see the difference btween fiction and reality shat far too often in these WW2 plane (or tank) videos, someone will inevitably chime in with "but in War thunder"... It's a video game, people. This is real life.
I believe that the critical contributor was the chatter on the communication channel. In any maneuver involving more than one aircraft and coordinated from the ground, the channel should have been used strictly for essential comms only.
Agreed, that chatter should have been at a minimal. But the planes were released by the air-boss based on an assumption. A fatal assumption. He should never have released any aircraft without positive confirmation. That is as crucial as releasing aircraft to make their changes on a negative confirmation.
Many possible reasons: chatter, very common frequency/jamming/old radios or perhaps someone played a devious role (remember Rust movie), unknown medical history/reasons, unknown mechanical/maintenance/design problem etc
So many of us have the same taste in channels. While this is more of a disaster recap channel, and Pilot DeBrief and blancolirio concentrate on critiquing pilots, air traffic controllers, and everything to do with airplanes and flight… we watch and learn from both. If you’re here and want to learn more about airplanes, flying, and air disasters… the two channels I mentioned above are excellent. If you have a channel to recommend, please do!
i really enjoy your videos, and you're usually pretty thorough and clearly care a lot about doing these, but the fact that aviation and air disasters are not really your typical sphere is kinda showing in this one man. the "final report" you saw seems to be disorganized because it isn't actually a final report - it's the "investigation docket", which is their collection of all documents that were used and produced in the process of the investigation. it is typically released a number of weeks ahead of the final report (which is usually a fairly tidy single document with a few annexes), but typically gets far less attention than the final report itself either because they are released closer together or because only nerds notice that a docket came out for less high-profile incidents. as of yet, the NTSB (national transportation safety *board*) has NOT yet released a final report with a determination of probable cause or finding of fault for this incident. not sure what the holdup is exactly, but they have not made a final report, which will contain probable cause and recommendations for prevention, at this time. the reason the "initial report" from a month after the incident seems to apparently contradict some items in the docket collection is because the "initial factual report" as it is called (which are routine for any event with major loss of life that the ntsb deals with, not just high-profile ones), is solely a summary of the facts as they are known at that point in the investigation, *without* making a determination of probable cause or responsibility. because it comes out at the 30 day mark which is pretty early on, that initial report is potentially going to present information that seems contradictory to the information that they have at the end of an in-depth investigation, often because new things were learned and uncovered as the investigation progressed. now, i'm not trying to rip you one or anything, the fact that you sat down and read that whole docket shows you clearly care a helluva lot about getting it right (which anybody who watches your stuff already knew). i'm still smashing that like button! the things i pointed out are all really common misunderstandings for people not immersed in the nitty gritty of the aviation sphere and how an NTSB air crash investigation routinely proceeds, professional journalists who are not on an aviation beat make the same mistakes all the time when covering these. you're somebody who clearly loves learning new stuff. Juan Browne of the channel blancolirio is a very experienced commercial and private pilot who covers this subject matter in detail in his spare time, his videos on this accident and others are very informative even for a lay audience (Juan is a great teacher) and also take the time to explain the procedural parts of how the investigations proceed. they are super worth checking out if you felt kinda confused by the NTSB's process or the "disorganized" docket collection, and want to learn a bit more about why it is all structured and formatted the way it is. but warning: once you go down the rabbit hole of learning more about air disasters and the fascinating process by which they are investigated, you may find yourself hooked! have a great day dude
Also those planes would not have one tenth of the tech that current craft would - radar/altimeter/IFF/GPS etc etc. The lack of visibility of the bombers from the pursuing fighters and the nearness of the ground would not leave you much room for error.
All of this blame should be put on the air-boss. Not sure why you’re stating that Craig had any fault in this. He was trusting the airboss who recklessly crossed flight paths on the whim; which you would’ve read had you actually researched and listened to the transmissions. This was horribly managed airspace by the air-boss.
The air-boss was competent throughout...until. How can the air-boss not be at fault? He has one job. In the face of one incredibly important call where the planes have the potential to cross paths & the affirmative or negative reply is unintelligible he chose to ASSUME. This is no place or role to be making assumptions. He released the aircraft to make their changes based on an assumption without confirmation. He is "the boss". He is the controller. But for his decision, the planes do not meet in mid-air.
@@skwervin1 personally I dont know. He likely could have looked outside with pretty weak binoculars & been fully appraised in an instant & had the comms mouthpiece & speaker in hand & right beside him. It makes no difference though. Why communicate with the aircraft if you are only hearing what you assume? There's no way that they affirmed seeing 3 planes because the final & fatal plane was still to pass them. If you don't hear a reply stating 3 planes have passed then, as the air-boss, you don't release the aircraft from their separated flight lines. That's a call you would want to be certain of, not quite sure, assumed or possible. Certain of. I have no idea how the NTSA hasn't found it to be the primary cause & all else contributing causes. But for that assumption, the "show" may have not been to plan, but I believe it almost certainly would have been without fatalities. Not to crucify anyone specifically but fault has to be attributed to the correct sources if these are lessons that remain only to be learnt from & not repeated.
it's amazing how you constantly turn single words into sentences. 13:06 "...due. to pilot error. on. behalf. of the p63f's pilot. who had erently descended. likely. after. he had mistaken another bomber....." lol
Regrettably, I must echo what several others have already said. 1. The Final Report has not been published, therefore many statements in this narrative are inaccurate and incorrect. 2. Blancolirio and PilotDebrief do a FAR better job interpreting the FACTUAL information in the docket. 3. It is very irresponsible to lay blame at the pilots’ feet and credit the Air Boss with alleged (non-existent) compliments from the NTSB(oard-not “Bureau”). I watch many of your videos, as I’m a diver, climber and pilot: unfortunately this one is so far off the mark I’d strongly recommend you pull it and watch the other videos previously recommended.
P63 pilot sounds incompetent. Probably too old to be flying in those formations. Insane how missions with hundreds of more planes took place in the 40s and then this guy comes in and smashed through an entire b17. Air boss or not dude needed to be way more aware of the situation
Bro I like your stuff but I listen at 1.25 and it’s still painful. You have the content and voice but need to structure sentences before someone has a stroke
That's what you do when the narrator is slow. I listen to most videos at 1.5x speed with no loss of intelligibility. Lets you watch more videos in less time.
Shit Morbid Midnight the loss of six lives and two irreplaceable aircraft- are there any more functional B-17G Flying Fortresses to replace the legendary Texas Raiders one lost ? I grew up with the Texas Raiders aircraft and crawled and played all over the plane during an air show decades ago I even bought a hat though I was young and poor that hat was worn like a gold crown on my adolescent head !!!!
Blancolirio and Hoover at pilot debrief seem to place more blame on the air boss than the pilots.
I think the biggest mistake from the air boss is not having altitude call-outs but that's it. The design of both planes put both in each other's blind spot.
Dan Gryder did the best recap. Pure nepotism, the air boss was not qualified.
Yeah, completely unqualified, a poor communicator, and he laid out a plan that put the planes at risk.
You can’t really blame the pilots when they were told where/when to turn by someone supposedly having oversight of the whole parade… who then turned them into each other.
Agree
Came in to say, watch Pilot Debrief for an in-depth recap on this disaster and a better understanding of what went wrong and why the Air Boss was to blame.
I like air shows. My dad was a Marine serving 30 years. I was born on Cherry Point Marine Corp Base in NC and lived on bases in South and North Carolina, Tenn, Mass, Maine, Michigan, Texas, Nevada, California, and Alaska. I always loved the planes and helicopters. I’m so sorry for the loss of the pilots and crew plus the loss of the aircraft B17G Flying Fortress with 5 crew members and especially the P363F Cobra Fighter with only 2 in existence. Lack of clear communication with the Flying Fortress and the ground directing the pilots was the issue. I know flying in air shows is fun but clear concise communications is critical as shown by this accident. God bless the families who lost love ones. Thanks…
I really like how much time you take to make an introduction and backstory to everything before finally talking about the disaster in question the videos are about, as it adds all the necessary context and baseline to fully understand everything. It really sets the channel apart from all the rest that barely give any background information or story.
I really liked the radio impersonations, it really added touch to the video.
Also, the "kind of a mess" at the report part sounds so hilarious. Everytime you do this you catch us off-guard.
Another great upload from our beloved Mr. MM. ❤
It adds a sense of gradually building dread that really sets the tone for stuff like this
@@makeitthrough_ absolutely.
Point of clarification: The NTSB has *not* released their final report on this incident, just the various materials that are part of the investigation. So they have not yet issued a statement of probable cause. As several commenters have noted, many professional aviation analysts have concluded that a lot of the blame for this crash falls on the air boss. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB gives as probable cause when the final report comes out.
There are many very deep dives on the multiple causes of this horrible tragedy. Morbid Midnight always posts informative, well researched and high quality videos like this one, however it seems a lot of professional pilots make a very good case placing most responsibility towards the air boss rather the pilot.
If it was so well researched, why didn't it pin the blame on the air boss where it belonged, instead of blaming 'pilot error'. Poorly played. People will come away from this blaming the dead. The incompetent air boss only got the job due to his father being the longtime CAF air boss.
@@Heike--Sounds like a real Kevin Dunn (the WWE nepo baby with beaver teeth, not the guy from Hot Shots and Transformers)
The report organization board joke got me lol
I fall asleep to a Morbid Midnight video most nights. This man never misses.
I love Morbid Midnight stories! Even if I’m familiar with the story, I like listening because he often includes more details. I absolutely love that he has no ads in his videos! The videos and narration seems to increase in quality each production. Keep up the good work MM!
He truly is the best channel. I cant even watch most youtube channels anymore because its nothing but ads every 5 mins and ruins the focus and vibe of the video
Beautiful collection of vintage planes.
The thumbnail photo is absolutely haunting. It still doesn't feel real.
If you want to see something more haunting, find one of the pics and zoom in, you can see a pilot still holding on.
Well done! Excellently researched and told…I appreciated the lighthearted allusions to Nepalese flights and the report organization.
Beautiful old planes, sad ending 😢
Thanks for another interesting video
when you know the story well, but you just want to hear someone tell a story
I used to wonder why such garbage was always on TV, and shy crappy sequel after crappy sequel set records in Hollywood instead of something new. Well, we know now. you DEMAND the same crap over and over again and you dislike anything new.
@@Heike-- Critical of others are we?
@@Heike--yap yap freak
Underrated video.
I'm going to an air show at Dover afb myself this sat . Man, I sure hope nothing like this happens . Terrible tragedy.
I went to the previous Dover show in 2022. Typical airshows are very structured and each performer follows a set routine they aren’t allowed to deviate from unless there’s some emergency. You’ll have a great time if this is your first.
It is fine for most time. So I think you will have great time. Enjoy! 👍
One of those pilots flew me when they came to my city. Just a few months before this 😳
The P-51 Mustang will take the cake
Something that happens very frequently in War Thunder. In real life, death is the outcome. Reality is much harsher than video games make it out to be. I saw the slow motion video of this disaster and saw someone falling out of the tail-section of the bomber. Truly horrible.
It's a sad commentary about modern inability to see the difference btween fiction and reality shat far too often in these WW2 plane (or tank) videos, someone will inevitably chime in with "but in War thunder"...
It's a video game, people. This is real life.
I believe that the critical contributor was the chatter on the communication channel. In any maneuver involving more than one aircraft and coordinated from the ground, the channel should have been used strictly for essential comms only.
Agreed, that chatter should have been at a minimal. But the planes were released by the air-boss based on an assumption. A fatal assumption. He should never have released any aircraft without positive confirmation. That is as crucial as releasing aircraft to make their changes on a negative confirmation.
Many possible reasons: chatter, very common frequency/jamming/old radios or perhaps someone played a devious role (remember Rust movie), unknown medical history/reasons, unknown mechanical/maintenance/design problem etc
Sad day for Dallas the day this happened. I remember this
Yay I need this new post
So many of us have the same taste in channels. While this is more of a disaster recap channel, and Pilot DeBrief and blancolirio concentrate on critiquing pilots, air traffic controllers, and everything to do with airplanes and flight… we watch and learn from both. If you’re here and want to learn more about airplanes, flying, and air disasters… the two channels I mentioned above are excellent. If you have a channel to recommend, please do!
Whispers “it’s kind of a mess” 😅
And throwing some shade on Yeti Airlines at the end 😉
Many thanks Morbid Midnight
New videos from Morbid Midnight AND Kyle Hates Hiking in the same day! It doesn't get much better than that!
The narrator does these videos in a perfect voice, for being at a funeral.
Never play cards with a guy named Doc. Never go into business with a guy named skippy. Never attend any airshows if want to live.
Sad and tragic
i really enjoy your videos, and you're usually pretty thorough and clearly care a lot about doing these, but the fact that aviation and air disasters are not really your typical sphere is kinda showing in this one man. the "final report" you saw seems to be disorganized because it isn't actually a final report - it's the "investigation docket", which is their collection of all documents that were used and produced in the process of the investigation. it is typically released a number of weeks ahead of the final report (which is usually a fairly tidy single document with a few annexes), but typically gets far less attention than the final report itself either because they are released closer together or because only nerds notice that a docket came out for less high-profile incidents. as of yet, the NTSB (national transportation safety *board*) has NOT yet released a final report with a determination of probable cause or finding of fault for this incident. not sure what the holdup is exactly, but they have not made a final report, which will contain probable cause and recommendations for prevention, at this time. the reason the "initial report" from a month after the incident seems to apparently contradict some items in the docket collection is because the "initial factual report" as it is called (which are routine for any event with major loss of life that the ntsb deals with, not just high-profile ones), is solely a summary of the facts as they are known at that point in the investigation, *without* making a determination of probable cause or responsibility. because it comes out at the 30 day mark which is pretty early on, that initial report is potentially going to present information that seems contradictory to the information that they have at the end of an in-depth investigation, often because new things were learned and uncovered as the investigation progressed. now, i'm not trying to rip you one or anything, the fact that you sat down and read that whole docket shows you clearly care a helluva lot about getting it right (which anybody who watches your stuff already knew). i'm still smashing that like button! the things i pointed out are all really common misunderstandings for people not immersed in the nitty gritty of the aviation sphere and how an NTSB air crash investigation routinely proceeds, professional journalists who are not on an aviation beat make the same mistakes all the time when covering these. you're somebody who clearly loves learning new stuff. Juan Browne of the channel blancolirio is a very experienced commercial and private pilot who covers this subject matter in detail in his spare time, his videos on this accident and others are very informative even for a lay audience (Juan is a great teacher) and also take the time to explain the procedural parts of how the investigations proceed. they are super worth checking out if you felt kinda confused by the NTSB's process or the "disorganized" docket collection, and want to learn a bit more about why it is all structured and formatted the way it is. but warning: once you go down the rabbit hole of learning more about air disasters and the fascinating process by which they are investigated, you may find yourself hooked! have a great day dude
I was there bro shit was so bad brother 😭
The Confederate Air Force just sounds much cooler than Commemorative Air Force.
They got the full ww2 experience but imagine 300 of them in the air with flak exploding all around and fighter planes picking them apart
Also those planes would not have one tenth of the tech that current craft would - radar/altimeter/IFF/GPS etc etc. The lack of visibility of the bombers from the pursuing fighters and the nearness of the ground would not leave you much room for error.
Hfs that thumbnail!
Long Video tho!!❤
needs to playback at 1.25 speed. it's been slowed down for some reason.
12:51
Gotta listen at 1.5x speed
All of this blame should be put on the air-boss. Not sure why you’re stating that Craig had any fault in this. He was trusting the airboss who recklessly crossed flight paths on the whim; which you would’ve read had you actually researched and listened to the transmissions. This was horribly managed airspace by the air-boss.
The air-boss was competent throughout...until.
How can the air-boss not be at fault?
He has one job. In the face of one incredibly important call where the planes have the potential to cross paths & the affirmative or negative reply is unintelligible he chose to ASSUME.
This is no place or role to be making assumptions. He released the aircraft to make their changes based on an assumption without confirmation. He is "the boss". He is the controller. But for his decision, the planes do not meet in mid-air.
DId the airboss have access to radar? or at that speed and distance would they have all appeared as one big blob?
@@skwervin1 personally I dont know. He likely could have looked outside with pretty weak binoculars & been fully appraised in an instant & had the comms mouthpiece & speaker in hand & right beside him. It makes no difference though. Why communicate with the aircraft if you are only hearing what you assume?
There's no way that they affirmed seeing 3 planes because the final & fatal plane was still to pass them.
If you don't hear a reply stating 3 planes have passed then, as the air-boss, you don't release the aircraft from their separated flight lines. That's a call you would want to be certain of, not quite sure, assumed or possible. Certain of.
I have no idea how the NTSA hasn't found it to be the primary cause & all else contributing causes. But for that assumption, the "show" may have not been to plan, but I believe it almost certainly would have been without fatalities.
Not to crucify anyone specifically but fault has to be attributed to the correct sources if these are lessons that remain only to be learnt from & not repeated.
it's amazing how you constantly turn single words into sentences.
13:06
"...due. to pilot error. on. behalf. of the p63f's pilot. who had erently descended. likely. after. he had mistaken another bomber....."
lol
Regrettably, I must echo what several others have already said. 1. The Final Report has not been published, therefore many statements in this narrative are inaccurate and incorrect. 2. Blancolirio and PilotDebrief do a FAR better job interpreting the FACTUAL information in the docket. 3. It is very irresponsible to lay blame at the pilots’ feet and credit the Air Boss with alleged (non-existent) compliments from the NTSB(oard-not “Bureau”). I watch many of your videos, as I’m a diver, climber and pilot: unfortunately this one is so far off the mark I’d strongly recommend you pull it and watch the other videos previously recommended.
Huh. That's all they changed in 2001, the spirit remains the same. Shame
P63 pilot sounds incompetent. Probably too old to be flying in those formations.
Insane how missions with hundreds of more planes took place in the 40s and then this guy comes in and smashed through an entire b17.
Air boss or not dude needed to be way more aware of the situation
This was not Craig Hutain’s fault whatsoever. There was minimal visibility in the P-63’s cockpit. The airboss was in charge and Craig trusted him.
Narrator needs to lay off the valium
Bro I like your stuff but I listen at 1.25 and it’s still painful. You have the content and voice but need to structure sentences before someone has a stroke
So the other P-63 F is now the last surviving example ? Ker-ching !
These planes survived a World War, only to be destroyed by careless and stupid air show personnel.
This is my comment
I hear and see thee. Herein lies my comment as well my squaw.
How about considering the vcxx which the pilot most probably have to take? Its called DIED SUDDENLY. Investigate oh you naive people .
New to this channel but video was More tolerable at 1.25 speed
That pilot sucked compared to the pilots of WW2 who maneuvered through a sky full of planes in battle.
Plays well at 1.5X speed.
why rush?
@@thecameramantraveler4830 cause it's like listening to Forest Gump whisper, otherwise.
Confederate Air force..lol you lost a died jjust like them.😅
Airgate. Just dumber.
Take your meds
Black lives matter!!!
(Just not since the invention of the John Deere tractor)
Surely you slow down your voice
"Texans never was all that bright"
-a wise man
Never were 🙄
@@jamesfowley4114 Not in Texas
Talk2Slo
Speed it up then!
Use the technology available at your fingertips to its fullest power
Good points I hadn't though of that. Cheers and 1000 happy sunrises 🌅 to both of you fine folks
Talk faster, super annoying. Had to put it on 1.75 speed for normal speed. Other than that, good video.
I don't think he needs to talk faster. As you said you can speed it up yourself so what's the problem?
That's what you do when the narrator is slow. I listen to most videos at 1.5x speed with no loss of intelligibility. Lets you watch more videos in less time.
What's the hurry?
@@Redbelly357To get through that hideous shitty comatose "narration". Need to get a completely different narrator that can actuallly narrate.
First
Shit Morbid Midnight the loss of six lives and two irreplaceable aircraft- are there any more functional B-17G Flying Fortresses to replace the legendary Texas Raiders one lost ? I grew up with the Texas Raiders aircraft and crawled and played all over the plane during an air show decades ago I even bought a hat though I was young and poor that hat was worn like a gold crown on my adolescent head !!!!
First