I know when I go to the movies that’s not real, just a movie. However I don’t want Luke Skywalker to rip the Yoda puppet off Frank Oz’s hand and start screaming “it’s all fake it’s a movie !” That’s what today’s wrestlers are doing to wrestling.
OLE SammyOLE That's really sucks because I saw Solo Sunday and its was pretty good. But people blame its box office failure on having a white male lead. Seriously!!!
Good point Brian Dirty Harry never turned to the camera and said it's ok kids nobodies really getting hurt or killed and guess what? my names not Harry it's really Clint and none of this is real and it doesn't really matter if the likes of Kenny Omega think they are making art like Laurence Olivier in the west end of London well Olivier never stopped during ( or before ) a play to tell everyone it was fake and silly and was meant just to be a silly bit of fun and was not to be taken seriously and had respect for the audience, his business and himself
I was trying to break into the business in 2006. As I saw the way wrestling was moving I didn't feel to bad about quitting and getting my physical therapy degree instead.
He wants wrestlers to keep pretending like wrestling is real and kayfabe never died. He blames the newer guys for exposing wrestling when he himself does the same thing on his podcast.
I get what Jim's saying. I grew up with Booker t, Eddie, kenta, Benoit, etc. Seeing in ring techs go to work. People that took shit serious. Which is why I would prefer when I'm a wrestler to go to a Noah or njpw or ajpw and wrestle. So I can make wrestling still somewhat valuable. We all know its choreography but make it a Jackie Chan film not a damn anime.
DaRe JoNeS no its not actually. He's given geto credit multiple times on okada. He's shitting on Kenny not so much Njpw. Inoki may have people but not enough to effect njpw. Ddt is its own beast.
Jeff Cockmann I dunno. Impact's recovery is largely because they've trimmed the bullshit from the Russo and Hogan eras. MLW also seems to have found an audience.
I think what really caused this was the drop in mainstream wrestling interest after WWF bought WCW. As mainstream fans leave then a higher and higher percentage of your audience ends up being the really hardcore geeks. And eventually the product starts tweaking things to serve this audience because that's who is there. And the whole thing feeds into itself. More of the audience are geeks so the product is aimed more towards them and that drives away the mainstream fans even more so then an even higher percentage of your audience are geeks so you tweak things to please them more and more. Comic books did this in the 90s when they focused more and more on targeting collectors and eventually the market became nothing but collectors and the old days of comics being sold at drugstores and newsstands was over. In wrestling it's the same way. And wrestling will never return to the success it had before with this kind of product. But moving away from it is scary because a promoter would naturally be scared of turning off the niche audience that is literally his entire business.
@@BigSeanH cant remember what year I said fuck it to wrestling but I started watching ufc mostly instead. But a lot of the guys I liked slowed down/retired so I stopped following it.
@@exiaR2x78 Pro wrestling just does not work with UFC/MMA being a real sport now. Hogan vs Rock was the "last" pro wrestling match, then 5 days later Randy Couture vs. Chuck Liddell 1.
Nell Bowie who are you talking about? I’m a big fan of Vinnie Paz, and I know he has the broad street breakdown, and I know he’s also a wrestling fan. Are those the guys you’re talking about?
Ask yourself this...Do you think AJ, Joe, Tanahashi, or Okada would ever do this stupid shit. Four modern wrestlers you can say are legit masters at their craft? The answer is FUCK NO cause they have respect for the business. Omega is a mid card hand at best. He's lucky Okada had the ability to carried his ass in every match.
There is no reason to care about modern wrestling, you can't suspend disbelief or emotionally invest or connect with any wrestlers because the promotions beat us about the head and neck with the fact it not a real contest but a scripted choreographed piece of fluff that doesn't matter and that there are no consequences for any ones actions, if they win, lose turn heel/babyface or just go home and the play wrestlers with their phoney hand grenades, stupid death matches, super kicking kids, wrestling blow up dolls , dick spots and dance routines have taken this to such extreme levels now that they have effectively put a spike through the heart of what was left of prowrestling and are now defecating on the corpse!!
@@lindsc6293 you just proved his point. Hardcore Trump supporters are animals. You wished for him to die of a heart attack because he doesnt support the same person you do. Stay classy, asswipe.
@Joey G Every time Russo has worked somewhere with Cornette, hes pissed him off or tried to get him fired. That's costing him money and effectively ruined the thing that Cornette loves to do. If someone fucked with your ability to put food on your table for your family on more than one occasion, wouldnt you wanna beat his ass too. That's a completely different situation. If he just hated Russo for a difference of opinion ONLY, that's a different story.
Would have been okay with it, if it was done as a promotional, child disease, find a cure type deal....but a "legitimate match" in a "legitimate" event, with everybody knowing what was gonna happen....was pure hot stinkin' shit. Glad the kids had an experience like that, but I think he would've had an even better one, if they treated it like it was "real". Have the heels mess with him a bit, maybe push him down.....take it to the edge of innapropriate and then have a feel good finish. But, as usual .....WWE likes to fuck it all up.
Brian is dead on the money. This crowd grew up on an undead wizard shooting lightning bolts. Invisible grenades is more or less the same thing on a tighter budget.
But the undertaker never broke character and told the audience it’s fake. That’s the difference. He sold the illusion. These new guys just wink at the camera and half ass it because they feel like they don’t have to sell the illusion of the product. But the illusion is the draw. It’s like a magician stopping the show and telling the audience... what i do isn’t real... here’s how i do these tricks.
@@danialramirez5709 Undertaker Actually Broke The 4th Wall "How The Fuck Did Pinkie Pie Get Here" Pinkie Pie: I Do Not Recall Undertaker Breaking The 4th Wall 10 Times
I blame Vince. His coming on TV and saying it's a work is more remembered than anything the NWA did and it's pretty obvious due to the cosplayer emergence.
When Vinnie Mc called it Wrestling Entertainment and WCW tried to copied their style with the dancers. I like ROH because it's fresh and I've checked out NWA and likeit as well.
So glad that Giant Baba and Antonio Inoki founded AJPW and NJPW (although Inoki is kinda stupid inviting MMA professionals to fight the NJPW roster) since some people saw that the product of WWE is kinda of cringe (Ruthless Aggression to PG-era but the current NXT,NXT UK and 2016 to 2020 WWE is good)
Everyone has always know wrestling is worked. People just like the angles and good matches. Like a male soap opera. It has its female fans, but days of our lives has male fans. People know days of our lives is a work, but that isnt stopping the people who like it from watching it. The reason people dont watch wrestling like they use to is WWE took total control and made wrestling a goofy kids program
I don't think it would be difficult if you wouldn't argue with people who just don't get it. Wrestling seems to be an acquired taste anymore which leads me to this The Promoters should cater to the fans and stop doing things that won't work.
Right, because everyone has always know wrestling is worked. Most the fans have always known. Catch cornette on a good day, even he admits people from the Louisville gardens thought it was worked when he was a kid
I still don't think Jim gets video games, like it's some niche market. It's the largest media and entertainment industry in the world and it Dwarves wrestling. It's bigger than wrestling has ever been. Wrestling, even WWE would beg for a portion of the gaming industry. GTA V alone made one Billion dollars in three days. Wrestling numbers are pitiful by comparison.
As soon as he said "that's just the way it is" at the end of the interview I immediately sang the rest of the line for him and to my delight he follows up my part with "Bruce Hornsby and the range!" 😄 God I love that man!
It will never go back. There would literally have to be an apocalypse and generations away from wrestling, and THEN maybe ppl could protect such things
This match was recommended to me by a friend who I thought was a wrestling fan after viewing maybe a third of it I proceeded to cut all contact with him
No one saying Vince?? Vince killed the territories,They were so important on many aspects..Yes Mcmahon has been a genuiess on some things..But death of the territories I think was the start of the downfall..And yes,the new gen of fans have not helped
I know Brian doesnt read th comments here but Jim should watch the New Japan Cow Palace Show and the All in Show I wanna listen to an entertaining review with meltdowns so bad 😅 Btw if anybody doesnt know Ibushi, he truly is one of the best around, watch his match with Nakamura from the Tokyo Dome or his Cruiserweight Classic run
I know who Kota Ibushi is, and I don't even watch any Japanese wrestling. He appeared in the WWE Crusierweight Classic, or for a smaller audience I've seen him make a few ROH appearances.
Only Video Game BOYS And Dave Metzler like these JOKE WRESTLERS. Jim C. Is 100% Correct. I wish they wouldn't let just anyone be wrestlers these days. Like Rodney Dangerfield "NO RESPECT".
Or maybe times change and people just like different shit now too? Or maybe there are those of us that enjoy the doll shit cause we wanna have some fun every once in awhile?
I can't stand modern wrestling, either. They are amazing athletes, no doubt. The production value is usually incredibly good (especially in WWE). But I stand with Jim in terms of "the business" and the way it used to be. Pro-wrestling going back probably 100 years has developed a history, a tradition, a culture, a personality, a language all its own. The thing is, there's nobody left in the business who has respect for all of that. Its all about making money & being a TikTok star. Our culture now -- the whole society, not just wrestling -- is all about "reality" TV that is the furthest possible thing from reality. It's all about some idiot in their mom's basement having a TH-cam show or being an "influencer" on Twitter (and having absolutely zero of substance to offer the world). Pro-wrestling is now just a reflection of the rest of our culture: anybody can do it, there's no substance, and it's all about image. At least with old school wrestling -- which wasn't perfect -- it had some reality involved. It had tradition, personality, and some sense of self-respect. Even as a kid, I knew it was a work, but there was a code that you didn't talk about it. Kayfabe meant something. That was part of the business as much as dropkicks & bodyslams. Without a sense of self-respect, it's just a shitty soap opera.
I watched wrestling from the mid 90s through the attitude era, stopped for a while, and was drawn back in by the CHIKARA podcast in the late 2000s. They did a whole lot of weird and wacky or goofy stuff, but the bits I watched were the high spots. Then I suddenly realised how silly the rest of it was when you see things like Player Uno get “Paused” Etc. It’s fine as a one off, but when it started being a weekly thing, it gets boring REAL quick. I then went the complete other way and started watching old World of Sport Wrestling (im from the UK, so I remember it being on tv when I was a kid on sundays) and from there transitioned back into serious wrestling. Having enjoyed both the serious side and the gimmicky silly side of wrestling, I have to say I prefer the serious side MUCH more.
I’ve seen the full match that he is talking about. I must say that I agree with Jim that the style is “garbage” in the sense of the danger to the performer. The way I interpreted though is like a one-man broadway show. It showed his skill and toughness to be able to essentially repeatedly Canadian destroy himself, amongst the other moves. Again, I almost feel like his willingness to hurt himself was exploited, it was dumb conceptually, but it did show that he has a considerable amount of in ring skill and toughness. I wouldn’t be surprised if the blowup doll thing started as a rib to some wrestler, with the promoters saying “here’s a doll. Try to get over now, chump” then they did and it became a challenge for others
Watch highlights of him vs naito.. I wanna know what Jim thinks of these constant neck bumps... that used to be a botched move... now they're trying to kill themselves (how it looks)
I can tolerate comedy wrestling Even comedy wrestling that takes the piss out of wrestling. I don’t like that particular brand, and I think it negatively impacts my ability to sell tickets to wrestling shows, but I tolerate it. But I draw the line at comedy wrestling that can seriously hurt you I should never see a spike bump in a comedy match.
On some level I'd say it's a bit of everyone's fault. With the case of the blow-up doll and 9-yr old girl, do you blame the wrestler for having and suggesting the idea, or do you blame the promoter for not shooting the idea down and instead booking it into their show in front of a paying audience? In general, do you blame these wrestlers who do these stupid things, the promoters who sell these stupid things, or the fans for buying these stupid things? Do you blame ECW for introducing a lot of people to deathmatches and inspiring new promotions to feature insanely bloody wrestling, or do you blame nostalgia blinded fans who believe the Attitude Era was the best era ever and needs to be brought back when they remember none of the absolute shit that was booked during the period? Do you blame WWE for booking absolute shit over the years and driving viewers either away from wrestling in general or to these smaller niche promotions with deathmatches and/or comedy that somehow create vocal fanbases devoted to whatever they promote? Do you blame Dave for having his head in Japan and judging all matches everywhere by the same standard even though it's completely different thus showing mainstream American wrestling to be inferior by his standards and further driving people towards the fringes, or do you blame the segment of his fans who believe the puro style is the best style and it's the big thing that'll take American wrestling out of its current stagnation and return it to mainstream success? Honestly there are so many different little reasons from all over contributing to the decline of wrestling in America as well as the introduction of some downright crazy things that keep potential viewers away, I can't list them all.
Im trying to get into wrestling I’m like 6’2-6’3 240 and have background in track and kickboxing but idk I ain’t gonna be a looked at as credible any time soon I’m just gonna get roped in with guys like Kenny and the young buck cause I’m 20I like to think I could be a good technician like Jericho or Eddie but idk my I shouldn’t they’re aren’t as many good opportunities As they’re were in the 80’s
I like Jim but he should let it go. As an old school fan who loves Memphis, Crockett and much of the 80’s/90’s/2000 WWF, we need to learn this isn’t the wrestling we grew up on. He lost this battle in Smoky Mountain and in ROH. If it were up to him, Kota and Kenny would be making cheesy unintentional homoerotic music videos, Mike Mondo, The Headbangers and Charlie Haas would be main eventing and every match would be booked like 1976 Memphis. Its a new generation with changed wrestling tastes. I’ve accepted this era isn’t for me. Not every fan will stay like they did in 1985 or 1998.
85futureshock I think he does not want to go back to the level of cheesiness of back then but just wants it to progress but still taken seriously. Kinda like most wanted a new star wars movie but not with the same cheesy dialogue that was in the original but the same spirit.
aiooty19 going back is not the answer either and some people would think that is worse then the current product. balance is what it needed take the lessons of the past and apply them to the current model. sad thing is no one has the money to make a promotion that would do this. lots of the guy's of today are amazing talents.
85futureshock I gotta agree. Jim's too worked up over something he can't change. The territories are dead, they're not coming back. Nevermind Vince, his wrestling couldn't survive extended cable, and especially not the Internet. Instead of cursing everything in the last 30 years, he should try to highlight good promotions and performers... Though I suppose that would require he open his mind even the slightest bit.
Your missing the point he hates that this new wrestlers are doing stupid shit like the doll thing and that is basically spitting in the face of the legends who help built it its fucking embarrassing
I'm sorry but its a little hypocritical of JC to keep ranting about Omega, Joey Ryan and Ibushi but some how the Undertaker and all the stupid shit he's done throughout the years is never mentioned. No wrestler has destroyed kayfabe more than the Undertaker has.
+Nicholas Panzarino I mean The Undertaker is my all time favorite wrestler, but it can't be denied that his character did help kill kayfabe in the 90s. It's pretty hard to suspend your disbelief for an undead wizard who wrestles. Anyone who still believed wrestling was legit certainly stopped believing in it as soon as they saw the deadman. If they didn't then they had some serious mental issues. I'm sure many old timer wrestlers hated The Undertaker back then, they probably thought he was killing the business. The same way Jim is hating on Omega and Ibushi right now. Yet many people, including myself, consider Undertaker to be one of if not the greatest of all time.
Nicholas Panzarino so help me with this logic. How does The Undertaker existing make blowup dolls, invisible shit, and slow-mo spots tolerable? "The WWE was stupid, we'll be stupider!"
It makes it tolerable because like Cornette said, these guys grew up watching the Undertaker. This is all they know and their mind set is that if one of the biggest stars in the sport can get away with doing stupid shit than they should be able to get away with it too. And is wrestling a blow up doll really more stupid than the Undertaker coming back from the dead? My main point is that JC does not criticize the Undertaker but he can't stop criticizing the new guys. And thats because JC and Taker are buddies. He worked with Taker in WCW when he was Mean Mark, and Taker did a few appearances for SMW. That's the hypocrasy of JC and that's the real reason he will never say anything negative about Taker. And my point is that if your not going to criticize the guy that did more to kill kayfabe than anyone else in the business, than you shouldn't criticize the new guys. And for the record I the JC is awesome, I just don't agree with him on this point.
I watched a WWE video from like 2013 and it was Big E lifting at Muscle Beach. The big thing I noticed was when he was lifting, there was a crowd watching him. Why you may ask? Because the guy is a sight to see, he looks like he could bend you in half and not break a sweat. Now imagine if it was someone like Balor or Omega, nobody would even bat an eye to pay attention. What I’m saying is, when someone is flipping through the channels what do you think will get their attention? Two 5’10 190 lb Indy midgets doing kicks and flips, or watching something like Lashley vs McIntyre? Probably the one with the superhuman looking guys.
As someone who was born in 87, and was a fan from the age of 5 watching Bret Hart, Tatanka, Undertaker, etc, I have never felt comfortable with the word fake. I'm not even part of the true old school, and even from my generation, knowing it was a work, the F word was a huge flag as a fan. I ultimately went on to joining a training school in Britain as a wrestler for 6 years at the age of 18, just did it for a fun hobby, as I knew I'd never have the commitment or work ethic to make it my career... especially in Britain. I actually became technically semi pro, I was paid to do shows, though never for big crowds. However even as someone who wasn't planning it as a major part of my life... it baffles me how even modern professionals so loosely throw around the F word... even when explaining it as a work to people interested nowadays, I still squirm at the F word... It saddens me that I look back at the pros from my generation as a level I could never even sniff at... they inspire me even when watching them all these years later... but I look at pros now with my faded amature skills, and feel like I still get it more than they fucking do...
I blame the WWE among other things than I do the independents for wrestling in general being in the shape it is today. Because the overwhelming majority of utter nonsense in modern day wrestling comes from WWE and it's fans. "Just stop complaining, watch something you actually enjoy instead, WWE doesn't give a shit, they're making more money than ever, etc, etc." Yes, you have the absurdity of Kenny Omega and the blow-up doll as well from not too long ago. The sad truth is that not only do most of today's generation of fans keep killing the "suspension of disbelief" in modern wrestling, but also today's wrestlers whether they're new to the industry or have been in the wrestling industry for a while, kill the "suspension of disbelief" as well. And I agree with Jim Cornette, we have these weird grown men and women going apeshit because of the stupid cringing, wrestling comedy BS get torn to shreds, then these idiots proceed to send you death threats and say "It's supposed to be fake". lol It's still real to them, dammit! The stupid cringing, comedy BS, the prim and proper offendees out there, the annoying fans that keep hitting people over the head with "wrestling is fake," but stupid humor is acceptable, the promoters (depending on the promotion) and the stupid PC BS in the real world. All of those things all rolled into one has made wrestling in general look like a laughingstock, in my humble opinion.
MerrieMelodies Fan While WWE has done a lot of questionable stuff it's a bit unfair to blame the current state of wrestling solely on them. Secondly PC has nothing to do with the state of the business either.
Ahmed Demha To be fair, WWE has had a profound effect on the business, while at the same time, an adverse effect as well, quality-wise, in my humble opinion. Secondly, PC does have very much to do with the state of the business as well as entertainment in general. Wrestling fans get bristled over honesty more than they do lies. They act as if saying you don't like something, (even a trifle bit), is a cardinal sin. I'm not going lie about my feelings about something just because WWE is the most well-known sports entertainment company in America and someone else doesn't like it. I'm not a fake wrestling fan.
MerrieMelodies Fan No one said you're lying, it's just that you're putting too much blame on specific or non existent factors. As for fans bristling at people offering honest commentary most criticism of people over things such as race or gender or sexuality isn't really rooted in honesty.
MerrieMelodies Fan I know we have had this discussion but you are still, in some small way, contributing to the WWE. Even wasting time on their shitty TH-cam is giving them something.
MerrieMelodies Fan And I think that you are fake, simply because you complain about the product and still support it. That's like eating your own shit for dinner and saying I didn't like it.
When I was a a scruffy young fan, I had a terrifyingly sloppy but accurate DDT for anyone that dared to call Andre or Flair a phony!! I was also the most awful little bastard you ever met, hee. Boil em in oil!!!!!! I'm listening Jim!!!! Oh!! What if a dude got paralyzed wrestling the doll!!!!! ????? !!!!! What a horrible lesson for us all!! Ha
WWE started the invisible Man, thing in 2006, where Vince pretended to fight God on ppv, I think it was Shane and Vince vs Shawn and "God", smh. The intergender matches started with WWE again when Chyna won the Intercontinental belt and was Co champs with Jericho against Jeff Jarrett. Braun Strowman wrestling with a kid was WWE again, when at WrestleMania, wtf. There's a common denominator, even Vince said he didn't want wrestling he wanted an action soap opera. It's Vince's fault, once he's gone hopefully it can be rejuvenated
Bumps are real ,story line is predetermined its a story flying off top rope hurts. Its still fun to watch. But the crap wwe puts out is crap. Need more wrestling.
I can see only one valid reason that any wrestler or,as in my case, stage fighter would fight with a rag doll dummy...... training. Now go with me on this,..... if you can sell taking a DDT or a crossbody from a rag doll then you can sell when an opponent does it. Or if you can punch/kick/chop/etc a dummy and lay the hit on but not through the dummy than you can do it to an opponent. So yes in training I can see the value of fighting a dummy or "the invisible man" to train selling and percussion but NOT in an actual live match .
Wrestling has more genres than just super-realistic seriousness. DDT has always been an over the top comedy promotion that's very niche and very indie. It's targeted towards people who know full well that it's fake and enjoy the promotion for what it is: silly fun. Complaining about it as ruining the business is like saying Monty Python movies ruin the film industry because they don't take themselves as seriously as the Shawshank Redemption. Cornette has always failed to see that a lot of what makes watching wrestling fun is...well actual FUN! He claims that "funny doesn't sell" when history has proven him wrong many times in the past. And holding stuff like the blow-up doll or the 9year old against one in a million talents like Kota Ibushi and Kenny Omega, despite the fact that these were things they did so long ago and in such a niche promotion (not to mention that one of those was a charity event iirc) that has nothing to do with New Japan, is quite frankly ridiculous. Cornette is an old, bitter carnie who can't accept the fact that he's the only one who thinks the fucking Midnight Express was the greatest thing in wrestling history.
Even though I’m a big fan of Jim and not a fan of modern wrestling, it’s the way it is because it’s no secret that wrestling is a work now. It’s just a different era. The business is exposed. We can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Wrestling is dead, or if not dead, it’s on life support. I’d like to see old school wrasslin’, but it just doesn’t have a market anymore. Well, not a big enough market to sustain it.
The "real pro wrestling is dead" argument doesn't work. All nations have the internet, everybody knows it isn't real, but it is still taken seriously and respected in several countries. The problem is the idiots that make a point to expose the business ten times a day, and crap WWE where storylines are abandoned for no reason and never mentioned again, and every wrestler has done 10 turns by the time they're in the business 3 years and nothing has any meaning and fans have no reason to become invested.
The wrestling is dead argument is such bullshit. It's more alive than ever. So much growth, so many companies to choose from. So many different styles. You want badass puro action you watch NJPW. You want sports entertainment you watch WWE or AEW. You want comedy, you watch DDT or CHIKARA. You want spotfests, you watch PWG. It's just Jim's outdated idea of NWA rasslin' that's dead, because guess what: Even back in the 80s it was very niche and only a small percentage of wrestling fans wanted to watch it. That's why it died and was gobbled up by WCW and WWF.
Its basic. Jim cornette wants wrestling to be a worked shoot fight with rules. He hates wrestling that is presented as a soap opera entertainment show, either geared towards grown men or kids. He wants UFC, but worked matches. Of course, if we go back and watch mid south, and alot of NWA shows from back in his day, there is alot of goofy and fake bullshit on their shows too. Jim has rose colored glasses on when talking about 70s and 80s wrestling. My understanding is that everyone has always known wrestling was fake, but people liked watching it for the angles, and people who could work believable matches
Exactly. Jim tries to pretend that there was no silly bullshit in his era when he was part of stupid shit like scaffold matches that exposed the business by nature. Or you know...everytime he took a freakin' bump and did so looking like one of the Looney Toons.
He's a fucking clown about politics. Trump= booming economy and the kooks like Putin and Kim Jung un in check, The socialists= economy shot to hell and the lunies doing damn well what they want with no chance of resistance. Trump is an asshole but the proof is crystal clear.
Kayfabe was always the same principle, sell it as real, but what was being sold and to whom has changed a lot. Real old school, say Karl Gotch wrestling Billy Robinson, Lou Thesz v Verne Gagne, these types of match were selling wrestling moves to wrestling fans, all very plausible, portraying characters close to their real life. Kayfabe was in making the moves look spontaneous and contested, and pretending the outcome wasn't fixed. With this level of wrestling skill, assuming the audience is invested, kayfabe doesn't have to stretch credulity too far. This was fixed wrestling, a work, but not so much fake wrestling, there was a lot that was real. There were plenty of real wrestlers back in the day who could really wrestle and how much real wrestling went on was up to them. By and large these were tough guys who could throw each other around and stretch and bump hard but safe. It was real wrestling - as real as the wrestlers were prepared to make it without injuring each other - real enough most of the time, and very real on occasions when arrangements came undone or tempers flared Even when wrestlers took on exaggerated theatrical personas this was often as not close to reality, say Bulldog Brower, Bruiser Brodie, King Curtis, and in any case legitimate sports have plenty of larger than life unique types, so kayfabe can handle all sorts of craziness in characterisation, but the problems in plausibility are more in the angles and motivations, bad scripting makes kayfabe look ridiculous The less actual wrestling being done and the fewer actual wrestlers and the more ludicrous the theatrics and the characters the more kayfabe is exposed. Exposes of wrestling have been around a long time, I read in the 1980s how the industry worked from something written well before that. Vince probably saw the writing on the wall for kayfabe and it suited him to accelerate it's demise, while still presenting his product as real to the younger fans, selling them plenty of merchandise while they believed Pro wrestling traditionally had a strong subculture of wrestling lore and values and techniques, carried on by actual wrestlers. Vince maybe preferred to work with acrobats and stuntmen and bodybuilders and actors as random wannabe stars than have potential opposition from wrestlers with their historical collective subculture - the boys So has the invisible man wrestled the sex doll yet? The only cure I can see is to have a belt that means something, get a champ who is legit catch wrestling with mma cred and some brutal submissions and who can also really work and sell, some contenders of the same ilk, and then blur the line between work and shoot, give a high proportion of actual wrestling. Make it so people think, wow, looked like a shoot, maybe it was, even if it was a work for the fans the champ still looks like a shoot champ they can believe in, the champ gives credibility to the belt, then the belt reflects authenticity back to the champ
To be honest, I don't think people knowing that pro wrestling isn't a shoot affects business that badly - come on, somebody in the '80s must have figured out that Jim burning Ronnie Garvin wouldn't happen in any unplanned sporting environment. What millions of people want is a quality show that allows them to suspend disbelief and doesn't insult their intelligence.
I want to see a new Jim Cornette wrestling promotion. Why can't we have a wrestling show run by someone with a brain? SMW was great. The promos actually lead to matches and the matches were actually good, and it wasn't all serious all the time. They had a decent amount of comedy, but it was only a little bit from time to time. It made sense and it was entertaining. You could believe it, it meant something. I'm all for high spots, but if it's just a bunch of flips and jumps for no reason then what's the point. One thing I do disagree with though is that I think that intergender matches can work if done right. If it's a female wrestler who is believable as a fighter going against a Shawn Michaels type, I think that could be great. Especially if he's a cocky heel pretty boy. I could imagine someone like Victoria or Beth Phoenix being able to wipe the floor with someone like Zack Ryder or Dolph Ziggler. I think that in those kind of situations it could not only be believable but it could produce some great matches.
I love Jim but I think it would have to be someone else in control that thinks like Jim but someone who studied jim's work and others of the time. I think jim is to set in his ways and would not be able to draw enough people to have an on going show.
I see Jim's points but he's not correct on modern day wrestling or wrestlers. Pretty much from 1996 to now. Now if you want to blame someone, blame the WWE machine.
The closest thing to comedy during Baba's tenure in All Japan would have been fellow legend Rusher Kimura repackaging himself as a comedy relief. Rusher, (who was originally known for his gruesome cage brawls and nickname "the demon of the steel cage") found a resurgence in popularity later in his career for his off-the-wall mic skills as part of a comedic tag team with fellow legend Mitsuo Momota. The Japanese audience loved Rusher's blistering and humorous rants so much that he gained another nickname "demon of the mic" in the process. And if you want Inoki's opinion on Wrestlers exposing the business: just look at Inoki's match against The Great Antonio. Neither Baba or Inoki would have tolerated today's comedy Wrestling.
I agree that the blow up doll and Kenny Omega and all that sucks. When it comes to wrestling Cornette is on point. Well besides ECW because he wouldn't believe how close his wrestling opinion is to Heyman's. Everything else, Cornette isn't so smart. I find it interesting that he blasts Trump supporters but I never hear him supporting any person. That's kind of cowardly because if he does push for someone people can shxt on him.
Wait... Jim just said that WWE never did the invisible man gimmick match. Wasn't Vince and Shane vs. Shawn Michaels and God an invisible man gimmick match?
![[UNCUT]“ฅนตื่นธรรม”ปะทะ“หมอปลา-ปู่มหามุนี-อั๋นโอกิ”สะเทือนกระทรวงเวทมนตร์ Iคนดังนั่งเคลียร์I10 ตค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/peMD_SAkwNc/mqdefault.jpg)
I know when I go to the movies that’s not real, just a movie. However I don’t want Luke Skywalker to rip the Yoda puppet off Frank Oz’s hand and start screaming “it’s all fake it’s a movie !” That’s what today’s wrestlers are doing to wrestling.
people are boycotting the solo movie because of the 3 previous feminist movies ruined the brand name of star wars. *fire kathleen kennedy*
the thing with Ibushi happened almost 10 years ago.
OLE SammyOLE That's really sucks because I saw Solo Sunday and its was pretty good. But people blame its box office failure on having a white male lead. Seriously!!!
Brian Rose greaT point
Good point Brian Dirty Harry never turned to the camera and said it's ok kids nobodies really getting hurt or killed and guess what? my names not Harry it's really Clint and none of this is real and it doesn't really matter if the likes of Kenny Omega think they are making art like Laurence Olivier in the west end of London well Olivier never stopped during ( or before ) a play to tell everyone it was fake and silly and was meant just to be a silly bit of fun and was not to be taken seriously and had respect for the audience, his business and himself
I was trying to break into the business in 2006. As I saw the way wrestling was moving I didn't feel to bad about quitting and getting my physical therapy degree instead.
Good for you I wanted to do it too but I saw how bad it was and went into business and music instead
Good for you guys! I also wanted to do it, but when I saw how bad it was I moved back in with my mom instead. I don't regret it.
Good for you all! I was going to break into the business but saw how bad it was. I got addicted to crack instead!
@@TokyoAfterlife Did You Fight Undertaker Let Me Guess You Lost To Him Twice LOL
Well I’m going to and don’t really care where it’s going
I'm 45 years old & I still have idiots say 2 me....
"U know it's fake right?"
@Lily is Hollow
go right ahead
@@supremeasiaticallah2303: wrestling is real, people are fake.... Mr Anderson..
Nobody takes their kid to see a Fast And The Furious movie will be "You Know This Is Fake Right?"
@@renafan3333
Hold up. You mean Vin Diesel ISN'T all about family?
(I'm kidding)
@@chrissawyer1484 I got that lol
I used to love wrestling, but I haven't watched Wrestling on tv for the last 10 years. I miss guys like Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage and Roddy piper
Randy piper vs dusty savage
Jim's not against modern wrestling...just STUPID wrestling!
Like Kenny Omega play wrestling a 9 year old girl or the young bucks superkicking a child. Come to think of it I hate the whole bullet club.
@@ethanmaccullouch2776 it's not the bullet club it's "the elite" version of the bullet club
@@ethanmaccullouch2776 the bucks and company sucks a bunch of NWO dx rejects.
@@misfitdanzig8152 That makes no sense.
He wants wrestlers to keep pretending like wrestling is real and kayfabe never died.
He blames the newer guys for exposing wrestling when he himself does the same thing on his podcast.
I get what Jim's saying. I grew up with Booker t, Eddie, kenta, Benoit, etc. Seeing in ring techs go to work. People that took shit serious. Which is why I would prefer when I'm a wrestler to go to a Noah or njpw or ajpw and wrestle. So I can make wrestling still somewhat valuable. We all know its choreography but make it a Jackie Chan film not a damn anime.
NJPW is part of what Jim is trashing here.
DaRe JoNeS no its not actually. He's given geto credit multiple times on okada. He's shitting on Kenny not so much Njpw. Inoki may have people but not enough to effect njpw. Ddt is its own beast.
Jeff Cockmann I dunno. Impact's recovery is largely because they've trimmed the bullshit from the Russo and Hogan eras. MLW also seems to have found an audience.
@@Dare5358 New Japan is shit now.
I think what really caused this was the drop in mainstream wrestling interest after WWF bought WCW. As mainstream fans leave then a higher and higher percentage of your audience ends up being the really hardcore geeks. And eventually the product starts tweaking things to serve this audience because that's who is there. And the whole thing feeds into itself. More of the audience are geeks so the product is aimed more towards them and that drives away the mainstream fans even more so then an even higher percentage of your audience are geeks so you tweak things to please them more and more.
Comic books did this in the 90s when they focused more and more on targeting collectors and eventually the market became nothing but collectors and the old days of comics being sold at drugstores and newsstands was over. In wrestling it's the same way. And wrestling will never return to the success it had before with this kind of product. But moving away from it is scary because a promoter would naturally be scared of turning off the niche audience that is literally his entire business.
I still think that if wrestling takes itself seriously....we can turn shit around....
@@arnavbhagwat4232 What about UFC?
@@BigSeanH cant remember what year I said fuck it to wrestling but I started watching ufc mostly instead. But a lot of the guys I liked slowed down/retired so I stopped following it.
@@exiaR2x78 Pro wrestling just does not work with UFC/MMA being a real sport now. Hogan vs Rock was the "last" pro wrestling match, then 5 days later Randy Couture vs. Chuck Liddell 1.
@@exiaR2x78 march 17-22, 2002
Didn't Seth Rollins just compare himself to sephiroth from FF7. Jim was spot on about wrestlers thinking they're video game characters.
Nah Seth Rollins Compared Undertaker To Sephiroth I Can Actually Agree
@@futuregohan4837 of course a toddler like you would agree, go jerk to anime or whatever you special needs kids do these days
Two years later and people still don't get what his problem is it's not the high spots it's the goofy shit like invisible man and Joey Ryan's shtick
"You know it's Japan, because everybody's Japanese." I did not expect that. Still choking 🤣🤣🤣
Edit: death threats in crayon 🤣🤣
The invisible hand grenade was the final nail in the coffin for the wrestling business
Joey Ryan🤔😡👎🏾
If Undertaker Had A Real Grenade I Think Shit Would Get Scary LOL
What about the Jedi choke slam 😂
"Sodimised with a rusty fishing knife"
My new favorite insult
I do think it's partly the fans fault and it starting with the smart marks in Philly
Nell Bowie who are you talking about? I’m a big fan of Vinnie Paz, and I know he has the broad street breakdown, and I know he’s also a wrestling fan. Are those the guys you’re talking about?
"Smart marks?" That's an oxymoron.😂
They’re everywhere
Lol smart and Philly is the oxymoron 😆
Heroes become villains quite a bit.
Ask yourself this...Do you think AJ, Joe, Tanahashi, or Okada would ever do this stupid shit. Four modern wrestlers you can say are legit masters at their craft? The answer is FUCK NO cause they have respect for the business. Omega is a mid card hand at best. He's lucky Okada had the ability to carried his ass in every match.
stfu
@UCtkjLBw_Wv7seoREMTDwQ8Q u stfu!!!
Everything Jim said on this topic was PURE FACTUAL! pure realism ladies gents
The fault has to lie on the promoters. They made to where anyone can be a pro-wrestler.
There is no reason to care about modern wrestling, you can't suspend disbelief or emotionally invest or connect with any wrestlers because the promotions beat us about the head and neck with the fact it not a real contest but a scripted choreographed piece of fluff that doesn't matter and that there are no consequences for any ones actions, if they win, lose turn heel/babyface or just go home and the play wrestlers with their phoney hand grenades, stupid death matches, super kicking kids, wrestling blow up dolls , dick spots and dance routines have taken this to such extreme levels now that they have effectively put a spike through the heart of what was left of prowrestling and are now defecating on the corpse!!
I don’t know what Trump has to do with wrestling commentary..
Bill Amo It's called an analogy, although if you actually listened to how he made the reference, you wouldn't even need to know that much.
@@lindsc6293 you just proved his point. Hardcore Trump supporters are animals. You wished for him to die of a heart attack because he doesnt support the same person you do. Stay classy, asswipe.
@Joey G Every time Russo has worked somewhere with Cornette, hes pissed him off or tried to get him fired. That's costing him money and effectively ruined the thing that Cornette loves to do. If someone fucked with your ability to put food on your table for your family on more than one occasion, wouldnt you wanna beat his ass too. That's a completely different situation. If he just hated Russo for a difference of opinion ONLY, that's a different story.
Well the idiot is in the wwe hall of fame
You're fucking slow in the head aren't you Bill ?
I quit watching wrestling after a 10 year old won a wwe tag title
Wow, you stuck with it
Would have been okay with it, if it was done as a promotional, child disease, find a cure type deal....but a "legitimate match" in a "legitimate" event, with everybody knowing what was gonna happen....was pure hot stinkin' shit.
Glad the kids had an experience like that, but I think he would've had an even better one, if they treated it like it was "real".
Have the heels mess with him a bit, maybe push him down.....take it to the edge of innapropriate and then have a feel good finish.
But, as usual .....WWE likes to fuck it all up.
@Turd Ferguson This. They lost me when it was more about who was fucking who than who was wrestling who.
Cosmic Radio shut your mouth you fucking pussy
@@augustgreig9420: yeah..... That's at all places of work these days..🤷🏾♂️
Jim Cornette's impression of the Twitter Crayon Death Threat people sounds exactly like Bruce Prichard and Jim Ross' impression of Jim. Lol
I blame Vince Mcmahon. He outed the business, and advertised wrestling God.
Brian is dead on the money. This crowd grew up on an undead wizard shooting lightning bolts. Invisible grenades is more or less the same thing on a tighter budget.
But the undertaker never broke character and told the audience it’s fake. That’s the difference. He sold the illusion. These new guys just wink at the camera and half ass it because they feel like they don’t have to sell the illusion of the product. But the illusion is the draw. It’s like a magician stopping the show and telling the audience... what i do isn’t real... here’s how i do these tricks.
@@danialramirez5709 Undertaker Actually Broke The 4th Wall "How The Fuck Did Pinkie Pie Get Here" Pinkie Pie: I Do Not Recall Undertaker Breaking The 4th Wall 10 Times
@@futuregohan4837 Why Do You Capitalize Every Single Letter In Your Sentences? It Reads Like A Long Title.
I'm definitely one that watches wrestling and podcasts on TH-cam and not on TV anymore. Never on TV.
I blame Vince. His coming on TV and saying it's a work is more remembered than anything the NWA did and it's pretty obvious due to the cosplayer emergence.
When Vinnie Mc called it Wrestling Entertainment and WCW tried to copied their style with the dancers. I like ROH because it's fresh and I've checked out NWA and likeit as well.
So glad that Giant Baba and Antonio Inoki founded AJPW and NJPW (although Inoki is kinda stupid inviting MMA professionals to fight the NJPW roster) since some people saw that the product of WWE is kinda of cringe (Ruthless Aggression to PG-era but the current NXT,NXT UK and 2016 to 2020 WWE is good)
I'm still one of those fans who try and protect wrestling, and let me tell ya its difficult.
Supermansvengence It can't be done. I'm in the same boat but you can't save a product this shitty.
Everyone has always know wrestling is worked. People just like the angles and good matches. Like a male soap opera. It has its female fans, but days of our lives has male fans. People know days of our lives is a work, but that isnt stopping the people who like it from watching it.
The reason people dont watch wrestling like they use to is WWE took total control and made wrestling a goofy kids program
I don't think it would be difficult if you wouldn't argue with people who just don't get it. Wrestling seems to be an acquired taste anymore which leads me to this The Promoters should cater to the fans and stop doing things that won't work.
@@jaxsquier that's exactly how you continue to isolate and shrink the fanbase. Do you know nothing or just enjoy acting stupid?
@@cameron3578 Really it's just an opinion, just like yours. Just trying to open up a dialogue and not be called stupid. But it's cool Do you Bruh.
I got made fun of till 1997 trying to sell wrestling as real.
Right, because everyone has always know wrestling is worked. Most the fans have always known. Catch cornette on a good day, even he admits people from the Louisville gardens thought it was worked when he was a kid
I blame Flair claiming he could get a five star match with a broom and elbow dropping the ring mat.
I still don't think Jim gets video games, like it's some niche market. It's the largest media and entertainment industry in the world and it Dwarves wrestling. It's bigger than wrestling has ever been. Wrestling, even WWE would beg for a portion of the gaming industry. GTA V alone made one Billion dollars in three days. Wrestling numbers are pitiful by comparison.
As soon as he said "that's just the way it is" at the end of the interview I immediately sang the rest of the line for him and to my delight he follows up my part with "Bruce Hornsby and the range!" 😄 God I love that man!
i can listen to mr. cornette all day long
If this video title isn't the most concise, encompassing Cornette video title ever, I don't know what is.
"This fucking kota ibushi character" no way lmfaoooooooooo
It will never go back. There would literally have to be an apocalypse and generations away from wrestling, and THEN maybe ppl could protect such things
I stopped believing around age nine or 1992
I enjoyed wrestling more when I knew I it was fake then when I thought it was real.
This match was recommended to me by a friend who I thought was a wrestling fan after viewing maybe a third of it I proceeded to cut all contact with him
XD
No one saying Vince?? Vince killed the territories,They were so important on many aspects..Yes Mcmahon has been a genuiess on some things..But death of the territories I think was the start of the downfall..And yes,the new gen of fans have not helped
Vince made wrestling popular too
or atleast had a big hand in it
Without a doubt he did but the impact he had on the industry and what he wanted it to be hurt it in the long run.
I know Brian doesnt read th comments here but Jim should watch the New Japan Cow Palace Show and the All in Show
I wanna listen to an entertaining review with meltdowns so bad 😅
Btw if anybody doesnt know Ibushi, he truly is one of the best around, watch his match with Nakamura from the Tokyo Dome or his Cruiserweight Classic run
antimaster100 you're a mark no one knows who the fuck kota kibushi is
I know who Kota Ibushi is, and I don't even watch any Japanese wrestling. He appeared in the WWE Crusierweight Classic, or for a smaller audience I've seen him make a few ROH appearances.
You have no idea what a mark even is. Stop using terms you don't understand. I will say it again, if you watch wrestling...YOU ARE A MARK.
Brian W mark =\= fan.
There's part of me that wants to hear Cornette review a Chikara match every week.
Its Vince's fault.
Agreed he opened the door to all this maddens
Only Video Game BOYS And Dave Metzler like these JOKE WRESTLERS. Jim C. Is 100% Correct. I wish they wouldn't let just anyone be wrestlers these days. Like Rodney Dangerfield "NO RESPECT".
Or maybe times change and people just like different shit now too? Or maybe there are those of us that enjoy the doll shit cause we wanna have some fun every once in awhile?
I can't stand modern wrestling, either. They are amazing athletes, no doubt. The production value is usually incredibly good (especially in WWE). But I stand with Jim in terms of "the business" and the way it used to be. Pro-wrestling going back probably 100 years has developed a history, a tradition, a culture, a personality, a language all its own. The thing is, there's nobody left in the business who has respect for all of that. Its all about making money & being a TikTok star. Our culture now -- the whole society, not just wrestling -- is all about "reality" TV that is the furthest possible thing from reality. It's all about some idiot in their mom's basement having a TH-cam show or being an "influencer" on Twitter (and having absolutely zero of substance to offer the world). Pro-wrestling is now just a reflection of the rest of our culture: anybody can do it, there's no substance, and it's all about image. At least with old school wrestling -- which wasn't perfect -- it had some reality involved. It had tradition, personality, and some sense of self-respect. Even as a kid, I knew it was a work, but there was a code that you didn't talk about it. Kayfabe meant something. That was part of the business as much as dropkicks & bodyslams. Without a sense of self-respect, it's just a shitty soap opera.
Dude I'm not reading all that bs
I watched wrestling from the mid 90s through the attitude era, stopped for a while, and was drawn back in by the CHIKARA podcast in the late 2000s. They did a whole lot of weird and wacky or goofy stuff, but the bits I watched were the high spots.
Then I suddenly realised how silly the rest of it was when you see things like Player Uno get “Paused” Etc. It’s fine as a one off, but when it started being a weekly thing, it gets boring REAL quick.
I then went the complete other way and started watching old World of Sport Wrestling (im from the UK, so I remember it being on tv when I was a kid on sundays) and from there transitioned back into serious wrestling.
Having enjoyed both the serious side and the gimmicky silly side of wrestling, I have to say I prefer the serious side MUCH more.
I’ve seen the full match that he is talking about. I must say that I agree with Jim that the style is “garbage” in the sense of the danger to the performer. The way I interpreted though is like a one-man broadway show. It showed his skill and toughness to be able to essentially repeatedly Canadian destroy himself, amongst the other moves. Again, I almost feel like his willingness to hurt himself was exploited, it was dumb conceptually, but it did show that he has a considerable amount of in ring skill and toughness.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the blowup doll thing started as a rib to some wrestler, with the promoters saying “here’s a doll. Try to get over now, chump” then they did and it became a challenge for others
Watch highlights of him vs naito.. I wanna know what Jim thinks of these constant neck bumps... that used to be a botched move... now they're trying to kill themselves (how it looks)
I can tolerate comedy wrestling
Even comedy wrestling that takes the piss out of wrestling. I don’t like that particular brand, and I think it negatively impacts my ability to sell tickets to wrestling shows, but I tolerate it.
But I draw the line at comedy wrestling that can seriously hurt you
I should never see a spike bump in a comedy match.
On some level I'd say it's a bit of everyone's fault. With the case of the blow-up doll and 9-yr old girl, do you blame the wrestler for having and suggesting the idea, or do you blame the promoter for not shooting the idea down and instead booking it into their show in front of a paying audience? In general, do you blame these wrestlers who do these stupid things, the promoters who sell these stupid things, or the fans for buying these stupid things? Do you blame ECW for introducing a lot of people to deathmatches and inspiring new promotions to feature insanely bloody wrestling, or do you blame nostalgia blinded fans who believe the Attitude Era was the best era ever and needs to be brought back when they remember none of the absolute shit that was booked during the period? Do you blame WWE for booking absolute shit over the years and driving viewers either away from wrestling in general or to these smaller niche promotions with deathmatches and/or comedy that somehow create vocal fanbases devoted to whatever they promote? Do you blame Dave for having his head in Japan and judging all matches everywhere by the same standard even though it's completely different thus showing mainstream American wrestling to be inferior by his standards and further driving people towards the fringes, or do you blame the segment of his fans who believe the puro style is the best style and it's the big thing that'll take American wrestling out of its current stagnation and return it to mainstream success? Honestly there are so many different little reasons from all over contributing to the decline of wrestling in America as well as the introduction of some downright crazy things that keep potential viewers away, I can't list them all.
Can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. 'Nuff said.
Man, l am glad that Ibushi is back doing the more serious shit!!
Im trying to get into wrestling I’m like 6’2-6’3 240 and have background in track and kickboxing but idk I ain’t gonna be a looked at as credible any time soon I’m just gonna get roped in with guys like Kenny and the young buck cause I’m 20I like to think I could be a good technician like Jericho or Eddie but idk my I shouldn’t they’re aren’t as many good opportunities As they’re were in the 80’s
I like Jim but he should let it go. As an old school fan who loves Memphis, Crockett and much of the 80’s/90’s/2000 WWF, we need to learn this isn’t the wrestling we grew up on. He lost this battle in Smoky Mountain and in ROH. If it were up to him, Kota and Kenny would be making cheesy unintentional homoerotic music videos, Mike Mondo, The Headbangers and Charlie Haas would be main eventing and every match would be booked like 1976 Memphis. Its a new generation with changed wrestling tastes. I’ve accepted this era isn’t for me. Not every fan will stay like they did in 1985 or 1998.
85futureshock I think he does not want to go back to the level of cheesiness of back then but just wants it to progress but still taken seriously. Kinda like most wanted a new star wars movie but not with the same cheesy dialogue that was in the original but the same spirit.
aiooty19 going back is not the answer either and some people would think that is worse then the current product. balance is what it needed take the lessons of the past and apply them to the current model. sad thing is no one has the money to make a promotion that would do this. lots of the guy's of today are amazing talents.
jim grand To be fair, in OVW there was none of the SMW cheesiness
85futureshock I gotta agree. Jim's too worked up over something he can't change. The territories are dead, they're not coming back. Nevermind Vince, his wrestling couldn't survive extended cable, and especially not the Internet. Instead of cursing everything in the last 30 years, he should try to highlight good promotions and performers... Though I suppose that would require he open his mind even the slightest bit.
Your missing the point he hates that this new wrestlers are doing stupid shit like the doll thing and that is basically spitting in the face of the legends who help built it its fucking embarrassing
This clip is historical!
Social Media killed Wrestling more than anything or anyone ever has or ever will. Change my mind.
"I used to say horrible things about The [female Tatanka], but I didn't mean them; I was working!"
I'm sorry but its a little hypocritical of JC to keep ranting about Omega, Joey Ryan and Ibushi but some how the Undertaker and all the stupid shit he's done throughout the years is never mentioned. No wrestler has destroyed kayfabe more than the Undertaker has.
Excellent point... and you're right. Taker is NEVER mentioned in this conversation.
+Nicholas Panzarino I mean The Undertaker is my all time favorite wrestler, but it can't be denied that his character did help kill kayfabe in the 90s. It's pretty hard to suspend your disbelief for an undead wizard who wrestles. Anyone who still believed wrestling was legit certainly stopped believing in it as soon as they saw the deadman. If they didn't then they had some serious mental issues. I'm sure many old timer wrestlers hated The Undertaker back then, they probably thought he was killing the business. The same way Jim is hating on Omega and Ibushi right now. Yet many people, including myself, consider Undertaker to be one of if not the greatest of all time.
As much as I hate to admit this, you're right.
Nicholas Panzarino so help me with this logic. How does The Undertaker existing make blowup dolls, invisible shit, and slow-mo spots tolerable?
"The WWE was stupid, we'll be stupider!"
It makes it tolerable because like Cornette said, these guys grew up watching the Undertaker. This is all they know and their mind set is that if one of the biggest stars in the sport can get away with doing stupid shit than they should be able to get away with it too. And is wrestling a blow up doll really more stupid than the Undertaker coming back from the dead? My main point is that JC does not criticize the Undertaker but he can't stop criticizing the new guys. And thats because JC and Taker are buddies. He worked with Taker in WCW when he was Mean Mark, and Taker did a few appearances for SMW. That's the hypocrasy of JC and that's the real reason he will never say anything negative about Taker. And my point is that if your not going to criticize the guy that did more to kill kayfabe than anyone else in the business, than you shouldn't criticize the new guys. And for the record I the JC is awesome, I just don't agree with him on this point.
If Vince Russo had thought of this crap WWE would have been doing it in 1990!
If only he could stick to wrestling and not politics.
It all goes back to Vince McMahon going national.
National expansion ➡️ exposing business to NJ commission ➡️ ECW ➡️ not needing to care about kayfabe
I watched a WWE video from like 2013 and it was Big E lifting at Muscle Beach. The big thing I noticed was when he was lifting, there was a crowd watching him. Why you may ask? Because the guy is a sight to see, he looks like he could bend you in half and not break a sweat. Now imagine if it was someone like Balor or Omega, nobody would even bat an eye to pay attention. What I’m saying is, when someone is flipping through the channels what do you think will get their attention? Two 5’10 190 lb Indy midgets doing kicks and flips, or watching something like Lashley vs McIntyre? Probably the one with the superhuman looking guys.
Jim you are spot on. I’m and old wrestling fan and am disgusted by this so called wrestling. I can’t watch it. It’s disrespectful
I hear the same comments from the young cats in regards 2 Hip Hop & Rap
That is a hard truth!
This might sound crazy, but I'd pay money to hear Jim curse me out. I've been cursed out before but never as eloquently as Jim's cusses.
As someone who was born in 87, and was a fan from the age of 5 watching Bret Hart, Tatanka, Undertaker, etc, I have never felt comfortable with the word fake. I'm not even part of the true old school, and even from my generation, knowing it was a work, the F word was a huge flag as a fan.
I ultimately went on to joining a training school in Britain as a wrestler for 6 years at the age of 18, just did it for a fun hobby, as I knew I'd never have the commitment or work ethic to make it my career... especially in Britain. I actually became technically semi pro, I was paid to do shows, though never for big crowds.
However even as someone who wasn't planning it as a major part of my life... it baffles me how even modern professionals so loosely throw around the F word... even when explaining it as a work to people interested nowadays, I still squirm at the F word...
It saddens me that I look back at the pros from my generation as a level I could never even sniff at... they inspire me even when watching them all these years later... but I look at pros now with my faded amature skills, and feel like I still get it more than they fucking do...
The goofy shit started with Vince McMahon, it just snowballed from there.
Vince McMahon Is The Blame
I blame the WWE among other things than I do the independents for wrestling in general being in the shape it is today. Because the overwhelming majority of utter nonsense in modern day wrestling comes from WWE and it's fans. "Just stop complaining, watch something you actually enjoy instead, WWE doesn't give a shit, they're making more money than ever, etc, etc." Yes, you have the absurdity of Kenny Omega and the blow-up doll as well from not too long ago. The sad truth is that not only do most of today's generation of fans keep killing the "suspension of disbelief" in modern wrestling, but also today's wrestlers whether they're new to the industry or have been in the wrestling industry for a while, kill the "suspension of disbelief" as well. And I agree with Jim Cornette, we have these weird grown men and women going apeshit because of the stupid cringing, wrestling comedy BS get torn to shreds, then these idiots proceed to send you death threats and say "It's supposed to be fake". lol It's still real to them, dammit! The stupid cringing, comedy BS, the prim and proper offendees out there, the annoying fans that keep hitting people over the head with "wrestling is fake," but stupid humor is acceptable, the promoters (depending on the promotion) and the stupid PC BS in the real world. All of those things all rolled into one has made wrestling in general look like a laughingstock, in my humble opinion.
MerrieMelodies Fan
While WWE has done a lot of questionable stuff it's a bit unfair to blame the current state of wrestling solely on them. Secondly PC has nothing to do with the state of the business either.
Ahmed Demha To be fair, WWE has had a profound effect on the business, while at the same time, an adverse effect as well, quality-wise, in my humble opinion. Secondly, PC does have very much to do with the state of the business as well as entertainment in general. Wrestling fans get bristled over honesty more than they do lies. They act as if saying you don't like something, (even a trifle bit), is a cardinal sin. I'm not going lie about my feelings about something just because WWE is the most well-known sports entertainment company in America and someone else doesn't like it. I'm not a fake wrestling fan.
MerrieMelodies Fan
No one said you're lying, it's just that you're putting too much blame on specific or non existent factors.
As for fans bristling at people offering honest commentary most criticism of people over things such as race or gender or sexuality isn't really rooted in honesty.
MerrieMelodies Fan I know we have had this discussion but you are still, in some small way, contributing to the WWE. Even wasting time on their shitty TH-cam is giving them something.
MerrieMelodies Fan And I think that you are fake, simply because you complain about the product and still support it. That's like eating your own shit for dinner and saying I didn't like it.
8:27 - god I love how articulate Jim is when angry.
When I was a a scruffy young fan, I had a terrifyingly sloppy but accurate DDT for anyone that dared to call Andre or Flair a phony!!
I was also the most awful little bastard you ever met, hee.
Boil em in oil!!!!!! I'm listening Jim!!!!
Oh!! What if a dude got paralyzed wrestling the doll!!!!! ????? !!!!!
What a horrible lesson for us all!! Ha
WWE started the invisible Man, thing in 2006, where Vince pretended to fight God on ppv, I think it was Shane and Vince vs Shawn and "God", smh. The intergender matches started with WWE again when Chyna won the Intercontinental belt and was Co champs with Jericho against Jeff Jarrett. Braun Strowman wrestling with a kid was WWE again, when at WrestleMania, wtf. There's a common denominator, even Vince said he didn't want wrestling he wanted an action soap opera. It's Vince's fault, once he's gone hopefully it can be rejuvenated
The God match was bullshit.
..But Chyna looked like she could beat a guy up...not like some 100 pound Japanese schoolgirl fighting a 250 pound hunks
Arnav Bhagwat exactly China was the exception that’s the only reason it worked
When ONE entity runs the entire show , a mistake is compounded by 10... Just look at Mumbles in the White House...
Bumps are real ,story line is predetermined its a story flying off top rope hurts. Its still fun to watch. But the crap wwe puts out is crap. Need more wrestling.
Need more wrestling?
it's already too much wrestling
we need less wrestling and more BETTER storylines
I can see only one valid reason that any wrestler or,as in my case, stage fighter would fight with a rag doll dummy...... training. Now go with me on this,..... if you can sell taking a DDT or a crossbody from a rag doll then you can sell when an opponent does it. Or if you can punch/kick/chop/etc a dummy and lay the hit on but not through the dummy than you can do it to an opponent. So yes in training I can see the value of fighting a dummy or "the invisible man" to train selling and percussion but NOT in an actual live match .
Wrestling has more genres than just super-realistic seriousness. DDT has always been an over the top comedy promotion that's very niche and very indie. It's targeted towards people who know full well that it's fake and enjoy the promotion for what it is: silly fun. Complaining about it as ruining the business is like saying Monty Python movies ruin the film industry because they don't take themselves as seriously as the Shawshank Redemption. Cornette has always failed to see that a lot of what makes watching wrestling fun is...well actual FUN! He claims that "funny doesn't sell" when history has proven him wrong many times in the past.
And holding stuff like the blow-up doll or the 9year old against one in a million talents like Kota Ibushi and Kenny Omega, despite the fact that these were things they did so long ago and in such a niche promotion (not to mention that one of those was a charity event iirc) that has nothing to do with New Japan, is quite frankly ridiculous. Cornette is an old, bitter carnie who can't accept the fact that he's the only one who thinks the fucking Midnight Express was the greatest thing in wrestling history.
How do the promoters know if the invisible man has shown up ? What if he's ill ?
Wonder what he thinks about Wyatt’s Fun house?
Even if you thought it by was fake you knew the moves they did could end their career or life .
Even though I’m a big fan of Jim and not a fan of modern wrestling, it’s the way it is because it’s no secret that wrestling is a work now. It’s just a different era. The business is exposed. We can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Wrestling is dead, or if not dead, it’s on life support.
I’d like to see old school wrasslin’, but it just doesn’t have a market anymore. Well, not a big enough market to sustain it.
The "real pro wrestling is dead" argument doesn't work. All nations have the internet, everybody knows it isn't real, but it is still taken seriously and respected in several countries. The problem is the idiots that make a point to expose the business ten times a day, and crap WWE where storylines are abandoned for no reason and never mentioned again, and every wrestler has done 10 turns by the time they're in the business 3 years and nothing has any meaning and fans have no reason to become invested.
The wrestling is dead argument is such bullshit. It's more alive than ever. So much growth, so many companies to choose from. So many different styles. You want badass puro action you watch NJPW. You want sports entertainment you watch WWE or AEW. You want comedy, you watch DDT or CHIKARA. You want spotfests, you watch PWG.
It's just Jim's outdated idea of NWA rasslin' that's dead, because guess what: Even back in the 80s it was very niche and only a small percentage of wrestling fans wanted to watch it. That's why it died and was gobbled up by WCW and WWF.
Its basic. Jim cornette wants wrestling to be a worked shoot fight with rules. He hates wrestling that is presented as a soap opera entertainment show, either geared towards grown men or kids.
He wants UFC, but worked matches.
Of course, if we go back and watch mid south, and alot of NWA shows from back in his day, there is alot of goofy and fake bullshit on their shows too. Jim has rose colored glasses on when talking about 70s and 80s wrestling.
My understanding is that everyone has always known wrestling was fake, but people liked watching it for the angles, and people who could work believable matches
Exactly. Jim tries to pretend that there was no silly bullshit in his era when he was part of stupid shit like scaffold matches that exposed the business by nature. Or you know...everytime he took a freakin' bump and did so looking like one of the Looney Toons.
your baby comedy wrestling is garbage, keep coping kiddo
Between 8:27 and 8:37 is gold
Its not one persons fault, theres enough blame to go around
He knows wrestling for sure, politics however are a different story.
Why? Trump is a pile of shit and so is anyone who defended him. Hold the L
He's a fucking clown about politics. Trump= booming economy and the kooks like Putin and Kim Jung un in check, The socialists= economy shot to hell and the lunies doing damn well what they want with no chance of resistance. Trump is an asshole but the proof is crystal clear.
Your right Jim , why even call it wrestling this shit sucks, I miss rasas sling!
Lucha underground is the best wrestling out there today
Today is nothing, and that is a serie not a pure wrestling show
LMAOOOO LU is hot dogshit.
8:22
I am now just watching this video and I am ashamed I ever watched or loved to watch wrestling
Reminds of Vince McMahon vs God
God Was Secretly Undertaker In Disguise
That was amazing ngl
Kayfabe was always the same principle, sell it as real, but what was being sold and to whom has changed a lot. Real old school, say Karl Gotch wrestling Billy Robinson, Lou Thesz v Verne Gagne, these types of match were selling wrestling moves to wrestling fans, all very plausible, portraying characters close to their real life. Kayfabe was in making the moves look spontaneous and contested, and pretending the outcome wasn't fixed. With this level of wrestling skill, assuming the audience is invested, kayfabe doesn't have to stretch credulity too far. This was fixed wrestling, a work, but not so much fake wrestling, there was a lot that was real. There were plenty of real wrestlers back in the day who could really wrestle and how much real wrestling went on was up to them. By and large these were tough guys who could throw each other around and stretch and bump hard but safe. It was real wrestling - as real as the wrestlers were prepared to make it without injuring each other - real enough most of the time, and very real on occasions when arrangements came undone or tempers flared
Even when wrestlers took on exaggerated theatrical personas this was often as not close to reality, say Bulldog Brower, Bruiser Brodie, King Curtis, and in any case legitimate sports have plenty of larger than life unique types, so kayfabe can handle all sorts of craziness in characterisation, but the problems in plausibility are more in the angles and motivations, bad scripting makes kayfabe look ridiculous
The less actual wrestling being done and the fewer actual wrestlers and the more ludicrous the theatrics and the characters the more kayfabe is exposed. Exposes of wrestling have been around a long time, I read in the 1980s how the industry worked from something written well before that. Vince probably saw the writing on the wall for kayfabe and it suited him to accelerate it's demise, while still presenting his product as real to the younger fans, selling them plenty of merchandise while they believed
Pro wrestling traditionally had a strong subculture of wrestling lore and values and techniques, carried on by actual wrestlers. Vince maybe preferred to work with acrobats and stuntmen and bodybuilders and actors as random wannabe stars than have potential opposition from wrestlers with their historical collective subculture - the boys
So has the invisible man wrestled the sex doll yet? The only cure I can see is to have a belt that means something, get a champ who is legit catch wrestling with mma cred and some brutal submissions and who can also really work and sell, some contenders of the same ilk, and then blur the line between work and shoot, give a high proportion of actual wrestling. Make it so people think, wow, looked like a shoot, maybe it was, even if it was a work for the fans the champ still looks like a shoot champ they can believe in, the champ gives credibility to the belt, then the belt reflects authenticity back to the champ
To be honest, I don't think people knowing that pro wrestling isn't a shoot affects business that badly - come on, somebody in the '80s must have figured out that Jim burning Ronnie Garvin wouldn't happen in any unplanned sporting environment. What millions of people want is a quality show that allows them to suspend disbelief and doesn't insult their intelligence.
1938
That is the year when people found out that pro Wrestling is a work
“Whateverthefuck”
He talks about baba but what does inoki think about his own company
Hey Jim how did you really feel at 8:20 in to this podcast. But Jim if your so disgusted why watch today's Wrestling at all.
I want to see a new Jim Cornette wrestling promotion. Why can't we have a wrestling show run by someone with a brain? SMW was great. The promos actually lead to matches and the matches were actually good, and it wasn't all serious all the time. They had a decent amount of comedy, but it was only a little bit from time to time. It made sense and it was entertaining. You could believe it, it meant something. I'm all for high spots, but if it's just a bunch of flips and jumps for no reason then what's the point.
One thing I do disagree with though is that I think that intergender matches can work if done right. If it's a female wrestler who is believable as a fighter going against a Shawn Michaels type, I think that could be great. Especially if he's a cocky heel pretty boy. I could imagine someone like Victoria or Beth Phoenix being able to wipe the floor with someone like Zack Ryder or Dolph Ziggler. I think that in those kind of situations it could not only be believable but it could produce some great matches.
I love Jim but I think it would have to be someone else in control that thinks like Jim but someone who studied jim's work and others of the time. I think jim is to set in his ways and would not be able to draw enough people to have an on going show.
Ground zero for twinkle toes
Creative for big businesses: hire bad talent then proceed to give them bad lines and a bad angle and trash their character.....
Brian On The Come-Up ‘ Salute
There needs to be an update to Godwin's law that provides for JC mentioning Trump in a shoot.
I see Jim's points but he's not correct on modern day wrestling or wrestlers. Pretty much from 1996 to now. Now if you want to blame someone, blame the WWE machine.
I saw that video. I had to shake my head on that shit
If Cornette only knew how great Trump actually is. I feel bad for Jim.
How's that mindset working out for you in 2024?
Is this a rerun?
The closest thing to comedy during Baba's tenure in All Japan would have been fellow legend Rusher Kimura repackaging
himself as a comedy relief.
Rusher, (who was originally known for his gruesome cage brawls and nickname "the demon of the steel cage") found a
resurgence in popularity later in his career for his off-the-wall mic skills as part of a comedic tag team with fellow legend
Mitsuo Momota.
The Japanese audience loved Rusher's blistering and humorous rants so much that he gained another nickname "demon
of the mic" in the process.
And if you want Inoki's opinion on Wrestlers exposing the business: just look at Inoki's match against The Great Antonio.
Neither Baba or Inoki would have tolerated today's comedy Wrestling.
I agree that the blow up doll and Kenny Omega and all that sucks. When it comes to wrestling Cornette is on point. Well besides ECW because he wouldn't believe how close his wrestling opinion is to Heyman's. Everything else, Cornette isn't so smart. I find it interesting that he blasts Trump supporters but I never hear him supporting any person. That's kind of cowardly because if he does push for someone people can shxt on him.
Wait... Jim just said that WWE never did the invisible man gimmick match. Wasn't Vince and Shane vs. Shawn Michaels and God an invisible man gimmick match?
Jason Jimerson ... That happened?
Yes... Backlash 2006. It happened!
Jason Jimerson ... That has to be the dumbest shit. I'll take Kenny Omega over that shit...