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Legal versus Moral | The Curious Case of Adam White
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มี.ค. 2023
- We speak to Gavin Grewal of White Dalton Motorcycle Solicitors about the curious case of Adam White...
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Every single thing about this case really boils your blood. Adam goes to prison, loses his job, and unborn kid. Then the very service whose purpose is to protect us, funded by our very own taxes, throws him in there. And on top of that, the two waste of oxygen have been heavily funded by tax payers money for their medical and legal bills.
You really couldn't make this up, even if you tried. It's no wonder it's lawless out there, especially in London. There's nothing to fucking fear, if you're a criminal.
Adam broke the law.
The fact remains he chased them. I was taught in my criminology course that once you are no longer under threat if you pursue burglars you are legally in the wrong.
I understand morally its different but we have to live in a society with a certain legal standard.
@@jaysunbrady he was also convicted by a jury of his peers.
The guy should have thought before knocking the burgs off his bike, if in fact that is what he did. He should have been on the phone to police in his car so they could give chase to the crooks. Then there is insurance to pick up the tab if they then get away.
Two wrongs don't make a right in this case, the guy even admitted himself he shouldn't have done it. Seriously harming 2 individuals over a motorbike isnt worth it. Even then the bike would likely be in a mess after knocking it off the road so its loose/loose/loose.
On the other hand the law should be a lot tougher for people who steal things. Where I am from police don't care and just expect insurance to pick up the tab. That is where the injustice is. It enables criminals to carry on doing what they do while regular people carry their wrongdoings in insurance payments and having to deal with the nonsense.
The details around this case are similar to reasons why no chase laws are popping up all over the US. It's not because evil lefties eat babies and love criminals, it's because cops all drive 3 ton SUVs now and they keep killing people with them. If I'm sat in my house and you drive through my door and hurt me or my family because you were chasing some cunt stole your bike, I don't give a fuck about your bike. It's already dangerous enough on the roads without wannabe mad max going after a fucking 125 in is suburban assault vehicle
If you're in the act of committing a crime, the law should prohibit you from being able to use the legal system in your favor if you encounter consequences to your actions.
Pretty sure Gavin says that in the video, certainly in regards to the Civil aspect anyway - whether it would apply in the Criminal aspect, is why we have firms like White Dalton to help; as us lay persons probably wouldn't know the nuances of it.
Yes mate 👏
Said this for years, basic common sense
My mate had a burglar in his kitchen, went in trough a window, was armed with crowbar and a meat cleaver… families dog encounters burglar, bites burglar, burglar jumps back out the shattered window and slashes his Arterie in his leg… bleeds out and passes away. Family of that POS sued…got the dog put down and want compensation for their burglar scumbag familymember. The insanity of court systems…when the victim gets double victimized…is just insanity
Not all laws are just and not all officers wise.
But there's a reason why a criminal is not automatically free game. What if Adam White had pursued the criminals, knocked them off their bike and then punched them repeatedly until they were dead on the ground. Is that a reasonable consequence of their actions? And what if the criminals hadn't been knocked off but had stopped, left the bike behind, started running and Adam White ran them over with his car? Is that still a reasonable consequence of the crime? You have to draw the line somewhere and the most obvious line is just sticking to the law.
Now don't get me wrong, I feel it's not a fair or desirable outcome for Adam White to spend any time in jail, but I'm not a fan of lawless vigilante action either. That makes this case so difficult.
Shame the courts went after Adam White. Didn’t get that legal expert’s name but he speaks that legal jargon simply and in a way I can understand. Definitely should have him back on.
@Paul B That’s really good Gavin was able to help you. And thank you for telling me his name.
It's thanks to these videos that I rang White Dalton and was able to get help after someone knocked me off my bike and the other party started trying to deny it was their fault, still ongoing but just having them involved has been reassuring and helpful already.
Nah but apparently if the other party was angry and they claim you previously committed a crime then I guess you're the one who should be in prison lmao.
I had a similar thing when a drunk farmer pulled on me. Thankfully they eventually admitted liability. At the time it didn't dawn on me to get him a breathalyser test as I was in shock at surviving!
Wrote off his pickup too.
Anyway, wish you best of luck with your case.
The ludicrous part of this is persistent offenders got suspended sentences and a guy with no criminal record got a custodial one.
Happens everywhere these days. Judges are the common denominator in all of this.
@@corail53 Actually if you watch the video it's explained that the law itself is the problem, not judges. They can only enforce the law based on precedent.
Love these episodes. Maybe I’m odd but they’re fascinating
Odd is better than normal 😂
Knew where the story was going as soon as the guy hopped in a car to chase the thieves. Even in the US where in some states you have a right to use lethal force in defense of person and property once the assailant is retreating/off your property your rights change dramatically.
Sadly we're not in America and British Common Law has been shafted by Tony Blair's implementation of a Supreme Court system which didn't exist prior. (Partially how he evaded war crimes charges).
Timecode 6:43 -
What happens to the caveat of 'Defence of Personal Property' when "We own nothing and are happy?", which is where the current politic is taking us!
The reason we have a justice system and a police force is because the moral 'high-ground' where "An eye for an eye" sits, means that unchecked the world goes blind. No justice, no peace for anyone! If we get to the point (like the NHS) where the institution isn't fit for purpose, then we may as well be living in a giant GULAG!
Screw the U.S. at this point; Africa is starting to look like a glorious place to live all of a sudden!
Your allowed to follow a burgular to see where they go.
If they collide and get injured then maybe they should have thought about wearing safety gear.
Remember in most of the uk we have virtually no police and no actice policing of our streets.
You can ring 999 and noone even turns up alot of the time, if you can get through to anyone that is!
@@Yamaprilia Just because theres a legitimate grievance with how policing is or isnt conducted doesnt mean we should therefore abandon the legal codes, or worse alter them to suit the lack of policing..
You didnt arrive at this thought process by chance, all aspects of societal norms are being eroded; and much of it because were all too ready to jump the gun on a quick fix, silver bullet solution.
That's just not cricket, and it's not British.
Yup!
Yeah, from the account this solicitor gives, how can anybody be surprised he went to jail? And how tf can you argue its moral to run someone off the road when they don't pose any threat to you? Real knuckle-dragger shit.
Defend your property or life, but never chase someone miles down the road to issue harm.
With there being two of them it is a best case scenario that they fled.
Frustrating for sure to let them go without a positive ID.
Best case is he forced them to make an error in their riding that didn't involve hitting a third party person.
Even the Police aren't allowed to do that though, but better than the actions he took.
Hard to say what I would do in the moment, if the bike being stolen was in a garage built into the house, or a detached garage would have some bearing on it.
I bet the Police are itching to catch them do something else, well when they mend a bit.
Adam did a public service for sure, but the red mist made him a bit reckless.
That's why a gun is better when you catch a burglar on your property. At least you have a blood trail to follow.
He was defending his property, he was getting his bike back
@@rationalityfirst Tell Tony Martin that.
@@hello7533 He'd already done that and no he wasn't.
Here in Canada there were a few men that broke into a home and assaulted his mother. The intruders had a gun and the Son (who was a legal gun owner) shot the person who was asulting his mother, killing the intruder. He is standing trial for murder for killing someone who broke into his home, had a gun and was hurting his mother.
Hopefully the jury acquits him and sends a message to the politicians who are always surrounded with a security team. This what happens when idiots are elected. Following this case closely. Many other countries would be rewarding this home owner.
Same thing has happened in the uk. Ridiculous.
Not all the facts are out, making conclusions based on media reports and what the defense lawyer has stated , is being premature. The only things we know for sure is that one of the parties involved had a gun and an intruder was shot and killed by an individual who was a legal firearm owner. Everything else is conjecture . What the defense lawyer has stated publicly is not considered evidence of what happened.
@@fatchance1973 what else do you need to know? If someone is unlawfully IN your home threatening your family's life as well as your own with a gun you level them, end of story.
@@ianm432 . We do not have stand your ground laws like the US. If what the defense lawyer says is the truth then what he did would be legally justified. But there all manners of interactions that may have occurred that might not justify those actions. Its the job of the defense lawyer to either tell the truth , if it is favorable to their client or obfuscate if it is not favorable. Making conclusions based on the information available is being premature.
Great video, interesting feedback from such a thoughtful individual. Good on Al for not dominating and gently suggesting how a lot of us feel.
I have LITERALLY just started a Law Degree with the Open University (third month now), and this is exactly what I'm in the middle of now - could not be any more relevant to what I am studying right this moment (in respect to both the civil and criminal aspects of this matter!). Going to repost this in the OU Student forums as an excellent case study to view, as Gav's entire description and analysis is exceptional, so well delivered - absolutely brilliant!
LITERALLY LITERALLY had to be in CAPS! - LITERALLY
Do you believe Adam was in the wrong?
Before I took a criminology course I would have said no but when you actually study a topic it can (and should) change your views.
Sadly the law is only a baseline and knowledge of the law doesn't make one an expert on morality.
Since when has it been culturally acceptable to perpetrate attempts at murder as a defence of theft exactly?
In the UAE they'll chop your hands off, sure; but that's just not British is it?
Do you have a pamphlet on the significance of British culture as it relates to the practices of western law? Common Law has been subverted by the invention of a 'Supreme Court' thanks to Tony Blair. Arguably that's a key reason we're even wondering about who is guilty and who is innocent in this case. Common sense used to suffice well enough until the social unrest of mass immigration occurred, among other things.
What gets me is they were caught in a stolen car again when they got out of hospital awaiting trial !!! total scumbags
I was only rewatching the old videos from this series last week and wishing for more.
This is a messed up situation but at the end of the day you don't get to do vehicular manslaughter on fleeing perps, that's simply retribution, not self defence.
Ye I remember seeing this. Chasing them off - fine. Jumping in your car, chasing them down and ramming them is something else entirely.
I feel for the guy, but he took it too far. Crims got what they deserved though.
Fuck that.
@@mickenoss no they didn't, they're still alive. scum of the earth these people.
He did nothing wrong most folk would do the same.
Chasing them off on the bike they just stolen from him
He tried to do society a favour,should have been given a medal
I can't even watch this, thieves and murderers have more laws than victim defending them. This world is fucked
While I do believe those who decide to live outside the law, shouldn’t expect the full protection of it… there is a difference between defending your property and chasing two people down and trying to kill them…
I hope they took into account the state of mind someone would be in, after confronting two burglars on their property but does anything legitimately expect to get away Scott free with mowing them down, 5 miles down the road?!
This is what goes against him, five miles is hardly "down the road!". That is what makes this a tough one as clearly most of society will want to side with Adam, but the law may see it very differently due to that 'five miles', and not being just down the road, unfortunately Adam wasn't quick enough to make his action 100% justifiable.
I don't think he ever intended to kill them & the courts decided the same or the sentence would be very different. The justice system needs an overhaul as we have too many criminals that are easily able to work outside of the law without penalty and play victim, Whereas the law-abiding people who are the real victims are left helpless or jailed when they protect themselves, family or property.
So frustrating, Adam White was only in that situation because the thieves targeted him. He went a little to far but I feel so sorry for him.
Not far enough as the 2 thieves are still walking I'd say
When I watched the original episode my blood boiled and I felt that so much injustice was served on Adam. Sorry to get political, but a lot of people feel that if they don’t do something themselves then criminals will get away with doing what they are doing Scott free. Sadly the police are criminally underfunded so real criminals do get away with a lot more than law abiding people like Adam do, so a lot of people feel that unless they take direct action, then the criminal element in society will never be caught. What this episode explains well is that a fine line exists between criminality and vigilantes and that it can be a very slippery slope. Today it’s burglary, but what if a vigilante decides that parking on double yellow lines deserves a beating with a baseball bat, that’s the risk sadly. I want to say, Adam, you were a very unlucky and honest person that should never have been sent to prison and also thank you 44teeth as this is a very important and thoughtful video to put out there
I'd be much more willing to see the police/CPS' side of things if I could believe they would get of their arse to actually look for thieves or recover a stolen bike. You know they won't bother and the only way you'll get your bike back is is you go after it yourself.
This, 100%. You can't condemn vigilante justice if you've created its requirement by not doing your jobs, and not doing them for so long that everyone knows you'll only get justice by taking it into your own hands.
Had three bikes recovered by thr police job job by the boys in blue.
@@phantombigballs8165 must’ve been years ago, they’re incredibly hopeless now
People need a government that supports policing instead of continually cutting the service. Blame them for the lack of resources.
@@oliw3664 You want more support for the police, but they arrested the victim here.
Exactly why we need less police
You only need to see videos of people filming cars at uk police stations to see the polices us vs them mentality
CPS IS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE
I had a similar incident back in 2016, 2 scrotes on a stolen bike sling a wheelie down the road, hit my van.
1 ran away, pillion was seriously injured - no helmet.
I was interviewed by the officer who arrived on scene, breathalysed and drug tested, found to be clear and legal etc, no further action.
2yrs later, the pillion sues me and gets a massive payout off my insurance.
Also, even though the police found me to have done nothing wrong and they were unlicensed and on a stolen bike, my insurance record a fault accident, so I had to pay increased premiums for 5yrs
No sympathy for thieves, if the law can't protect us we should be able to ourselves.
That’s why you never speak to the police, even if you think you’re in the right. Always ask for a lawyer.
Very well and clearly explained by Gav
As long as the police continue to fail to investigate 99% of bike thefts, people will take the law into their own hands more and more. What other option is there?
Makes my blood boil, like many others. Adam white is my hero. If you’re so inclined, look up the petition to support Adam. I just signed.
Here in the States, your right to defend yourself, your family, and your property has to match the threat. Meaning, in part: your right to defend begins when the threat begins and ends when the threat ends.
If you've foiled the burglary on your property and are now pursuing the would-be burglars, you are no longer defending yourself/family/property, so those defenses cease to apply. So if you pursue unsafely or intentionally run the thieves down, that's on you.
The real baffling part of this, that probably would not fly here in the USA, is the moral relativism of suspending the burglars' sentences. We'd patch their asses up and send 'em, maybe not to the county farm, but some sort of "custodial facility."
Highly unlike he would have been arrested in the states for this or gotten more than a slap on the wrist.
It actually depends on the state. In Texas if you see a guy walking down the street with your TV you can shoot him but in others you need to make an active effort to "retreat" before you can defend yourself. It's less matching the threat and more what your state requires for a shooting or self defense to be legal.
@@aka_pierre Doubtful the police need him there to give a statement.
@@aka_pierre No, he'd most likely have been arrested in the States, too.
when taking my ccl license the state lawyer said if you shoot someone, we (the state )will decide if you will be prosecuted BUT remember the person you shot will probably sue you, if he is dead his family will probably sue so you will be going to court even if the state doesn't take any action
Say nothing at all at the scene, wait until you've got a solicitor and a clear head.
Movie director : this gonna be a good film in theater around the world based on true story.
Makes me so angry had to stop watching 😡……. Well done for covering this 👍
The only thing I feel sorry about is that Adam clipped them and had to do time in the clink. Aren't the rozzers aloud to ram these slime balls these days? If so, would they go to prison??
Just a shame they just didn't fall off and hurt themselves. Just remember all you dogooders out there. While Adam White was serving his sentence, they were out there doing the same thing to someone else.
I've seen footage where police take down scooters although I think they got alot of flack for it.
@@JWxUK The scumbags should put it down to an occupational hazard.
This story is mad, I know Adams wife as she worked next door to me and spoke to her most days about this case whilst it was going through the courts, mental!
What can we do to help Adam?
already been a gofund me 170k in his wifes name!
Yep, could listen to these guys all day.
a justice system that fails to deliver justice is a bad justice system.
It's more of a justus sytem, unfortunately......
Even lawyers struggle to interpret law. Indictments aren't 'proof' and to really turn the 'property' discussion on it's head; What exactly is property when most have payments outstanding on their impedimenta?
The WEF's "You will own nothing and be happy" will certainly make things more clear in legal cases like this. They'd throw away the key of someone attempting to kill those poor hapless fools that are just trying to survive without the 'privilege' of employment.
What a horrid nightmare.
Unfortunately when they left his property he was no longer under threat and pursuing and knocking them off their bike is a criminal act.
I think everyone agrees morally he is in the right but as a society we cant live by vigilante justice.
@@jaysunbrady If everyone agrees that attempted murder is appropriate for petty crime (not white collar crime, lol), then we've gone badly wrong.
ie. The guy's life wasnt being threatened, just his goods.
This isnt a Kyle RIttenhouse sityashun folks!
Great explanation by the Legal Rep but at the same time a better illustration of the legal system being dislocated from its purpose and of little utility to most citizens. Its become an industry in its own right, the most likely to lose in every outcome being victims of crime or the taxpayer. Its called 'Criminal Justice' for a reason.
I don't know the Adam White case, but a question for Gavin (or whomever): What is the "maximum" you can legally do to be (mostly) safe? Assuming you had a dash cam as proof too. For example, can you follow the thieves (presumably at speed as you're keeping up with them), and, without touching them or similar, they lose control and crash due (due to the pressure of maintaining the escape against a pursuer)?
I believe once you start following them you're in the wrong. You're allowed to defend yourself and you're allowed to chase them of but once they leave it becomes an act of revenge. I'm not a legal expert though.
@@gerardmontgomery280 So the solution is to cause as much (legal) damage to them before they start to leave? Or what if you damaged your own property (ie pierce the tyre of your bike with a thrown knife) when they (coincidentally) were on it wheelieing away?
Great explanation by Gavin. Enjoyable to hear his account of the event.
I can't say what I'd like to here,so I won't.
The fact he is even being taken to court is wrong. No one should be able to sue/take someone to court if they are actively braking the law. Criminals are scum and should always be dealt with by a heavy hand
The real issue here is the courts and the CPS let Adam down well before this event ever happened. These are career criminals with a long history of getting a slap on the wrist. If they were punished correctly in the first place, then they would be in prison and not free to continually target hard working decent people. This has just sent another example to the criminals that they can get away with what ever they want 🤬🤬🤬
The UK doesn't have the resources of America - our prisons are full, our Police forces are under-funded and are far too concerned on being inclusive than sorting crimes out, and our Government couldn't give a toss about any of this. Seriously - in the US they can hand out 90 year sentences for stuff, where the UK dole out 3 or 4 years for vehicular manslaughter!
The two scrotes were clearly a waste of oxygen, and should have been sorted out years ago - but (considering they started in their teens) what you are seeing isn't the CPS letting anyone down; but rather an entire failure of many systems: from their own families maybe not instilling common decency in them, the Councils not giving children/teens enough to keep them occupied, through to lenient slaps on the wrist when they did finally start going down the crime route. This is a problem all over the country, and there really isn't much/anything people are willing to do about it.
We in the UK know how wanky our justice system can be - there's that old case about the guy locked up for knifing burglars, in his own home; as (if I recall) it was deemed that the force used was excessive. Now that was bull****, he ought to have been supported, the same with the one who got done (by burglars) who fell through a skylight or something!
I digress.
Did the courts and CPS let Adam down as you say? Or are these two scrotes simply a by-product of a number of factors that are far-reaching, and nothing to do with either the CPS or courts? I think the latter personally - though the CPS/courts do have a place, but [most likely] have their hands tied behind their back on a lot of things.
I remember watching that episode, tv just about went through the window!
And some folks wonder why, worldwide, people think of the system as corrupted.
Loved this, very interesting and thought provoking
Great video but did some one fart at about 5:16? Lol
The system is broken. When will the public wake up ?
Sorry Al I don't really see the drama. I feel bad for Adam but no, I absolutely would not have done the same thing. If things had gone down slightly differently both the burglars could be dead and I'm not one of the psychopaths who think that would be deserved. Defending your property is one thing, as soon as you start chasing someone you become the aggressor.
100% this. I love Al and 44Teeth, and I can appreciate his comments on how he would act the same - considering he's got a lovely family and home. But if Al took it to the extremes like Mr White did, then I'm sorry Al - but you would be in the wrong mate!
Just watching this winds me up!
Id never seen that programme before, but just happened to watch that episode. It pissed me off so much never watched it again, the system is unbelievably floored! 100% would have done the same!!
Recently I was hit by another driver and at the scene they admitted responsibility. The insurance companies have taken so long to deal with it that when asked again, the other party said they don’t remember. Because there’s no evidence, I’m having to pay thousands to fix my car. How is this right??
CPS charge a guy for using force in order to stop and arrest career criminals but they won't bother addressing serial shoplifters. So wrong.
As someone stated in a previous comment, the Police are so unmotivated to do what they need to do you take matters into your own hands. I have a few incredulous stories, one of which a burglar ran from them (literally dropping tools) and they didn’t give chase. When I asked why, they told me they hadn’t seen him commit a crime so they didn’t chase……yet the entire reason they were there is because I reported a burglary (not my residence) in progress!
Many years ago I caught a burglar trying to break into my garage restrained him for the hour it took the police to arrive, where he promptly tried to accuse me of assault. A week later I disturbed the same person attempting to break into a neighbour's house unfortunately I was unable to catch him but could identify him when the police arrived they showed no interest in even taking a statement off me. A few weeks later I caught the same offender breaking into yet another neighbour's house where I restrained him again until the police arrived. The system has been broken for a long time.
That doesn’t surprise me at all, but nice work on the detainment.
Yeah, I for one, no longer call the police, last time I did, some junkies stabbed each other, zero care from me but one returned into his premises and I thought “man, if this guy dies and I don’t at least call the police I will feel pretty bad.” So call the police, no police turn up, but they call me back, and ask what’s happening now. “I said nothing, the guy was injured and he’s still inside”. The police lady said…..”um….so did you still want us to attend?” I was shocked (tho I shouldn’t be)…and said “do what you want, stabbed guy at this address, the rest is up to you.
That’s was it for me, I despise these junkies and good riddance to a point IMHO, but yeah, you don’t expect that attitude from the police, no wonder we’re all so apathetic.
If the 2 burglars hadn't been trying to steal from someone then there wouldn't have been any accident. Sorry to all the people who think that Adam White went too far but the blame lies 100% with the 2 burglars who wilfully went out with the intention of robbing someone else.
Our laws are so backwards. If this had been somewhere like Texas I bet this would have gone down very differently. "Reasonable" force especially always makes me mad. If a criminal enters your property and threatens you and yours, then ALL force should be deemed reasonable, including deadly force. World has gone mad as the saying goes!
I don't think you will get much from the courts regarding this matter, due to the fact they have raised the claim through the insurance company. I am happy to clear up some details for you. I am "the wife" .... nicely put video by the way. Unfortunately the charges were very clever and Adam didn't stand a chance in court. We relied on sympathy but the judge made very clear to our Jury that they could not look at the aggravating factors prior to the accident. Even begging the judge for mercy in our case did not work at sentencing. All i can do is thank everyone for their support.
Adam should be awarded the Georges Medal rather than be sentenced to a custodial sentence.
I understand why he was prosecuted and guilty, but I cannot fathom not giving him a suspended sentence. It seems utterly incomprehensible and deeply wrong.
Superbly explained by mr Grewal! Is there an Adam White t-shirt yet with BIG thumbs up?
3 people tried to steal my motocross bike from a garage . If I’d been there I would have done exactly the same as
Adam White. The police arrive too late .
Then we'd be watching a video about "Nick Clark" who ended up doing 2 years in jail, who protests his innocence, and thinks the law should allow him to use his car as a weapon for ~5 miles so he can exact vigilante justice.
Slow clap.
The police are not there to protect real victims of crime. They are there to protect the guilty.
When I was a youngster a local kid who was a bike thief was rammed into a skip by a police car - the kid was killed outright. No case was raised against the police. Justice? Well, the moped he was (illegally, no tax, licence, MOT or insurance) riding at the time WASN'T stolen (unusually) he just refused to stop for the police (who knew him) - but if it WAS a stolen bike and the person driving the car that killed the kid was the owner of a stolen moped would they have got off scot-free? The police are citizens just like us but the law is not applied equally.
Interesting video and clearly quite a complex case. As with most things involving the law, it’s rarely as simple as we would like. I hope that the bike thieves get their comeuppance some day, but one thing a lot of the arm chair vigilantes forget to think about is this… where do you stand when Adam White (or someone else driving dangerously in pursuit of thieves) loses control of their car, miles away from their home, and causes death or injury to you or someone you care about? Are you still ok with that, or do you want the law to punish him? The law is there to protect us as a society and his bike wasn’t worth the risk to him or other road users.
I sort of understand that you shouldn't chase after the criminals and nerf them off the bike, but a small number of criminals continually rob/damage property/mug and unless you pretty much catch them in the act, they can't be prosecuted due to lack of evidence ! Surely Adam could counter sue the lowlife ? What are the perps claiming - injury and loss of possible goods they would've / could've stolen ?! A public go fund me would help Adam.
People are just sick and tired of seeing these scumbag burglars get away scott free even when caught. Slap on the wrist if you're lucky and sent on their merry way. Ridiculous. Mr. White should have been given a medal.
Really well done on producing this video. Although there is obviously anger you ran through the case with the facts and the solicitor was great on explaining the law.
Through this legalese all I can think about is the image of a judge wearing a goofy wig and pondering the facts of the case like a serious person
Legal rights and responsibilities in cases of criminal trespass vary widely from country to country, state to state. Best to familiarise yourself with local laws to better protect yourself and property if the need arises.
More on how to avoid getting into this situation is to sell bikes and cars to a dealer rather than privately. I had this advice from an ex-Army colleague, now a traffic cop on the Wirral. Way too many cases like this after Autotrader/EBay/Facebook advertising.
Many people cant afford to give away that much value in the transaction to a dealer and shouldn’t have to fear that a simple private sale is so dangerous in a civil society
If your breaking into someones house then all your rights should be lost.
You should expect someone to defend their house and family at all costs and you should expect you may come to serious harm.
A dad defending his family is a sure fire way to get yourself hurt.
It has to be said that if the police and legal system did there job properly this situation would have never arisen.
Most crime is perpetrated by serial scrotes, deal with them properly the first time
UK law is fucked. Fortunately the states have not become completely devoid of logic and sense.
Well, the states is devoid of logic and sense, just in other ways
Y is it in this country u can't defend ur own property,
Erm, you can. You just can't go chasing people 5 miles to attack them - as that (hold onto your hat now!) makes you a criminal like them!!
This is just beyond fucked up. Protecting your property and you end up in jail, burglars walk free and sue you for their injuries.
I'm pissed.
Thanks Al, Gav.
So chasing burglar 1 & 2, are you only allowed to apprehend and suitably restrain them to the boundary line, and once they cross that just let them go?
First time I’ve heard of this case - unbelievable
The primary purpose of law is not to punish criminals, it's to maintain control. I'm guessing that in the eyes of the "Law" Adam White was viewed as a much bigger threat to society than those two scumbags. This just proves that the "Law" is an ass sometimes and Adam White is a hero not a villain.
I think a point no one has mentioned so far is the citizens arrest powers and surrounding rules.
I wonder if there would be a defense of some kind in there. My point being that if he had gone far enough away from his house to mean the situation was past home defence he would then be chasing criminals and attempting to stop them while they were in the process of committing a crime.
In that situation he's allowed to use reasonable force. Maybe he misjudged that but in the heat of the moment who would blame him?
I think its fair to say he wouldn't be thinking clearly when he was just woken up by some toe rags trying to rob his house with his family in it.
A seperate point is while the legal system has to follow its order, it is in essence there to uphold laws which are based on our morals anyway. When there is a massive outcry maybe there should be a system in place to look at it again to see if the right thing was really done.
Jailing as good guy who was wronged while letting the scum out who wronged him certainly doesn't sound like justice.
If you’ve watched Escape from New York then you know what our justice system needs right now. No more fines, no more slapped wrists for career criminals just accrued points. 100 points and your over the fucking wall
The "justice" system is not about justice, it is about power projection of the state.
A superbly clear explanation. It's rare to get an English solicitor who is equally as comfortable in criminal and civil law and can explain with such clarity. I'm now a civil lawyer, but in the past I did criminal law, and Gavin did really well not to get dragged into the emotion, despite the fact he is a biker himself. I really feel for Adam White. I can totally get his red mist, and I also understand the law. Good interview and questions, Al.
Pray tell me fine lawyer, when in our culture did it become permissible for anyone to attempt to murder someone for theft? Scrumping is still a crime, but we don't even chop people's hands off because we're not the UAE. It's just not British, whatever the state of our policing. As far as I'm aware there was no threat to life until five miles down the road.
No emotions here pal, but your blood appears to be boiling. Explain yourself!
I love these episodes and support Adam but I don't think I'd chase someone down the road if they'd run off. I'd be staying near my bike, wife and kids. He should be prosecuted but 100% should've had his sentence suspended.
Agreed. It's a horrible situation, but once the 'threat' was gone, he should have stopped, and Gav goes on to say that Adam said in an interview he would not repeat his actions from that night past scaring them off.
Thanks for these. You are a good spud, Al 🥔
Welcome to everything that is wrong with the UK legal system.
2 weeks ago someone tried to steal my bike, have CCTV and everything, good details of the person. no point even bothering going to the police though, as i know they will do nothing from just an attempted burglary.
We’ve had similar cases in Australia. It seems we aren’t allowed to defend ourselves, our families or our property. Let’s just lay out the welcome mat for for every shithead that takes things that aren’t theirs
It’s the new world agenda. Criminals have free reign, and the common man should always be living in fear.
The law should take into account the fact that the public are not protected adequately by the police when it comes to burglary/vehicle theft. It’s pretty much lawless out there so we should be able to respond appropriately.
U gotta love the law n police. They can sit on the side of the road trying to catch u speeding but anything else there shit at
Pretty sure those cunts are just unpaid volunteers too! Imagine getting your kicks from basically flicking shit at people! I have always thought it would be fitting to put my car inside the speed camera van at 120 lol! How’d ya like that ya bastard lol 😂
Phoned the police coming back home the other day, I was behind a driver who was swerving all over the road, into the oncoming lane, nearly had 4 head on accidents in the space of 5 miles, the driver was evidently well over the drink drive limit
I phoned the police whilst following the guy, maintaining a safe distance, the police didn’t even show up!
But you bet there’s been a speed camera van in the same place on the way to work 7 days out of the last 10. Wankers, the lot of them
They must have families, they must be susceptible to pressure from the biker community IYKWIM. Dirt for dirt.
I'm in the US and I own firearms to defend my bikes, but you can't go run down an attempted theft. It amounts to nothing more than road rage by that point. Using force is acceptable when necessary to stop them, but off your property they are not a threat to you any more.
Ridiculous - U.K. is off the rails - public should take defence of life and property into their own hands - might as well do a proper job and take them out with a P226 (remember Lockarts Principle )
I've had 3 bikes nicked now, boils my piss.
Btw lads you need to sort them ride mics out, that buzz whine thing is a pain in the arse
very well spoken man
Adam should be given a medal not sent to prison, the little bastards, what's wrong with this bent, corrupt country, Stay strong Adam, your a good man good man..
So what we've learnt is when ramming some burglers, don't hang about, get yourself back home and deny all knowledge
Even better carry some booze in the car with you. Sorry officer I was drunk didn't see them. Will lose his license still be liable for civil lawsuits but probably won't go to prison.
What I can't get my head around is he pled not guilty which means it goes to court to be judged by a jury of his peers. The jury then found him guilty. What person in their right mind, sat in that courtroom and thought, yep, he's guilty?? Surely that was a not guilty verdict all day long? Or did the letter of the law mean he didn't stand a chance?
Adam done the police officers job , he had to because they are lazy and are sitting in the BP garage drinking subsidised coffee. The police should be in prison and Adam should have a medal
Give the man a medal. This has got me proper angry.
The saying goes:
You live by the sword, you die the sword.
Therefore if you attack, a person's options aren't limited to defend or yield. Another option is to also attack, now that they've been provoked.
They chose to run. He responded by chasing.
They instigated, he responded.
If they hadn't ran, they wouldn't have been ran over.
If they hadn't have tried to commit crime against him, he would be gainfully employed with 3 children.
If they had a reasonable deterrent from crime via the police/law of land then they may have made different life choices (stay at college etc.)
If the system hadn't failed them and supported them better through their early childhood - in various ways and means - then these two youths may have been apprentices to the Adam White's of this country and inspired to go and build a life themselves.
What were seeing are consequences.
What needs to change is the cause.
i understand chasing them off your property.. or even beating the sh*t out of them while catching them in the act of stealing your bike... but getting in your car and chasing them to run them over? as much as i hate the scumbags... i can't justify what adam white did 🤷🏻♂️
Just watched Boothy thrashing a zx10 around a track and that got me thinking, how is he doing? How about an update on his recovery? Thanks.
This is an infuriating case. Absolutely no love lost for the burglars but in the end it was ruled to be a case of "vigilante justice".
The law protects everyone and it can protect the wrong people. The (alleged) civil claim is absolute bollocks.
The criminals are thankful for the protection. Let that be a lesson to you: the law is on the criminal's side.