I get the vibe that the DLC is more aout Marikas story than it was Miquella. Miquellas antics felt more like a sidequest running parallel to us learning more about Marikas origin story.
The biggest letdown was that miquella didn't turn out to be a moth. He is in a cocoon, he has budding bug wings when mohg is stealing him. WTF? I wanted to fight a miquella mothman. Sucks.
The ending cutscene pissed me off so much, it's literally so useless lmaooo I completely agree with your take; I think the devs focused too much on the Mohg twist and did everything to narritively prove his innocense and thus forgot to properly expand on the rest. I like From's vague storytelling most of the time, but sometimes you just gotta admit it's not the best way to tell a good story.
I don't think Mohg was innocent of kidnapping Miquella, his pattern with the war surgeons and the ghost demanding Miquella's return ASAP in the Consecrated Snowfield indicate that the abduction was never Miquella's plan. However, I do agree that the ending cutscene sucked and only told us all of the things we already knew. There was no given answer to the vow, or set up as to why a memory would hover there.
@@nightscout9979 Ansbach straight up said he challenged Miquella, Leda said he "managed to cleave him open". That's not what you do to cocoon with an unresponsive guy in it. The ghost in the CS seems more angry that Mohg is an omen than Miquella's kidnapping lol This is a minor thing and I see how it may not convince people, but the way Malenia (and Haligtree soldier ashes) speaks of Miquella's *return* kinda implies that he went at his own will. Like they were waiting for him to get something done ya know? From a meta-narrative standpoint, I really feel like the story tries its best to convey Mohg's innocence, especially through Ansbach's character who's essentially Mohg's representative (he's kind, rational, honorable, a reliable source etc.) As a writer that's how I'd do it.
@@kennyg3118 Those allusions is basically "oh godwyn is like dead dead, like no turning it back, the world is fucked dead" people were just really wanting a bossfight so they took it as a maybe there is more. He is a cancer on the world. The only relevance he has is to hammer home that the default ending (choosing to be Elden lord) would solve nothing because Godwyn is still a thing and only the more radical endings matter
I think presentation was the bigger problem. It's very odd that Radahn has such a nice-looking new body considering it was cobbled together from the corpse of Mohg. We know from the crosses that Miquella abandoned not just his flesh, but aspects of his personality and emotional range that he viewed as inhibitions, including his love and his fear and doubt. So what does he need with this clean, attractive consort? Why not make Radahn/Mohg more monstrous, and invoke more features from each of them? This would make clearer that Radahn's and Mohg's shared fate is a tragedy concocted by a newly risen god who's ruined his own ability to recognize the horror he's created. I did the NPC quests so I knew we were getting a Radahn fight in some form, but my reaction would have been better if i were shocked by the contrast between Miquella's golden majesty and the disgust and horror invoked by a monstrous "consort"
My way of thinking of it is that giving him a more restored body allowed Radahn to be more complicent before getting ultimately charmed in second phased
The resurrected Radahn isn't monstrous because his fate isn't supposed to be tragic. Miquella fulfilled his promise and Radahn is reborn as a lord, poised to conquer the Lands Between just like his hero, Godfrey. His appearance and the music that plays during his fight is bright and triumphant for a reason. The only tragedy here is literally just a headcanon.
@@blackeddeath I know what they were going for but clearly it didn't play well with people. I'm offering an alternative presentation that I think would have turned an unearned plot twist into something more substantial. Maybe Radahn THOUGHT he might be getting a new life of unending war and glory, only to be returned as a freak of nature bound to frightening new god.
When they originally announced that killing Radahn is a requirement to enter the DLC i suspected that it had something to do with him controlling the stars (and we know the stars control fate itself). My assumption was that Miquella's path to godhood was halted by Radahn and Malenia fought him for that very reason.
I’m quite certain that the Eclipse was originally going to be a major plot point in the DLC, and this is why I think we would have needed to kill Radahn to enter the DLC
@@jobbersupreme8720 The Astrologer class' gear notes that "fate" is no longer in the stars, so Radahn's seal likely affects everyone, not just his family.
So I've been really conflicted about the ending of the dlc like everyone, but most of the videos I've watched have been really unsatisfying, but this video solidifies why you're one of my favourite lore hunters. The problem with ER lore isn't so much that they bait and switched godwyn (I personally think godwyns storyline is complete: boys dead, nothings bringing him back, destined death is dead forever), but that the lore has always been the first thing cut or sacrificed for deadlines. We saw this with all the cut NPCs and storylines in the base game (Kale and the mimic tear are the two I still can't work out why they cut). From know that most of their audience don't care about lore, and the prioritisation of everything else makes sense...but as a lore addict, getting everything unravelled to find that there wasnt actually a big world ending secret at the heart is disappointing.
I'm really glad the video resonated with you! Making the video was cathartic for me since unlike a lot of critics, I actually do think Radahn being Miquella's consort could work. But that storyline was so underdeveloped, which felt particularly odd since the DLC spent almost 2 1/2 years in development. And like you said, it felt super disappointing to see that there wasn't any bombshell lore revelation In Miquella's final cut scene. Plus, since the Radahn elements were so undercooked, it also lacked the emotional impact of the endings for The Ringed City and The Old Hunters. And yeah, I'm still baffled by FromSoft dropping the Mimic Tear and Kale quests. Especially the latter! My (Elden) Lord, his voice acting was phenomenal. (Before the DLC came out, I was thinking that maybe Kale's quest was cut because they wanted to minimize the lore for the Frenzied Flame. But then the DLC added Midra and the new lore morsel that he was just one of many failed Lords of Frenzied Flame...) And thank you so much for your support and your praise!!
Maybe from software cut content so that we could get a better player experience? Like they prioritised the player rather than their ego unlike some other triple A companies lol Love your work
@@garrulousgoldmask I am in the same boat mostly, totally underwhelmed and confused by Radahn, but with some lore videos and some reddit posts I can see that it may make sense. Someone pointed out that Radahn's bow has Miquella lillies on the end. Other things pointed out, are the crucible knight and crucible things at the redmane castle hinting at connection to hornsent/shadowlands, and there are misbegotten, trolls, pumpkin head, and lion guards. Not too many places are mixed bags like this, but Haligtree is. there is one single Miquellas lily there too. We can find also an arteria leaf here as well. Some other connections are Sellia (Radahn) and Ordina (Miquella statues and entrance to Haligtree) having the same architecture. We see that there are many black knife assassins here. and we see that most of miquealla's lillies on the map are around Ranni, Mt Gelmir, and Caelid. I think he had something to do with night of black knives, probably to become a God, but also didn't want his brother Godwyn to end like that. I think there is some hints showing that Miquella needs Radahn as his consort in order to make all his goals come true. He needs this guy who can use gravity to control stars to make the eclipse happen. We have battle mage Hugues who came from Sellia, and we have multiple battlemages in the Haligtree. The descriptions of battle mages are very similar to Radahn's love for battle. Haligtree is the only location of the Giant Oracle Envoy, who heralds in a new god. Hinting at Miquella being a god beforehand. We have the prattling Pate "My Beloved" here, might be Radahn it refers to. I don't know if I am stretching, but I think there are some little hints.
I personally believe Kale's questline was cut because Hyetta's questline made it redundant. They both illustrated the same themes and both led you to the same final destination. I understand why people are disappointed that Kale missed out on all that character development (the cut lines really do resonate), but I think it was ultimately the right call on From's part. I also think it's a misconception that From cuts lore because of deadlines, or because they don't think people care. Don't forget, their approach to lore is minimalist by design, so I believe they cut anything they don't consider crucially important, even if it's finished/usable content. When I finished Fromsoft's earlier games, I felt the same sense of disappointment as you. I have learned over time that the best way to appreciate these stories is to embrace their ambiguity, and simply enjoy the sense of mystery and wonder for what it is. That's where the satisfaction lies.
@@launcelotdulake8075 Interesting perspective and I agree about growing to love the ambiguity. I think the lore ambiguity makes replay with new builds even more fun. One thing I'm interested in hearing more about and that is like a worm eating my brain, and maybe there is a good video I missed on it, is Godwyn's name. Is he the only child of Marika who's name doesn't start with M? If so, why? There's something there that, I personally, haven't found explored much. I know his Dad starts with G but typically the name starts with the first letter of the God parents name. Also, what was the Gloam Eyed Queens actual real name? Names are very important so there has to be an interesting reason Godwyn starts with G and the GEQ's name is never revealed. 🤔
I consistently commented that the dlc story is very lacking and having to fight radhan again as the final boss is kinda lazy, people called me a hater etc, finally someone have the same opinion
@@TREVORVADER i finished it around a week after release, and constantly thinking to myself wow, it would be so much better if they actually continue the story of Godwyn the prince of death as final boss but instead we got reskin Radhan and people making up lore to cover the lazy writing, it's frustrating honestly, other fromsoft DLC is literally the crown jewels, this prove literally bigger doesn't means better.
There was a comment on r/eldenringloretalk that stuck with me: Loretubers don't want to poke too much into radahn and miquella, the literal climax of the DLC, bc it's such a sore topic and a source of so much frustration among lore enthusiasts. Critiquing it risks unveiling the mask of elden ring's "untouchable story" that loretubers such as vaatividya rely on to keep viewers engaged and watching. So seeing you be blunt about your opinion on Radahn was very cathartic, and for the record, yes I agree with you.
To be fair, I don't think some of the loretubers like Vaati or Misschalice act like ER has a perfect story (unless one of them said something to that effect that I haven't seen). I think they just try to make sense of the story with what they're given.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable for content creators to avoid controversial topics out of self-preservation. If anything that’s more indicative of a flaw in the game in question and/or its fanbase than a flaw in the creators.
It’s not that, they probably WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT but can’t find anything interesting to say. Because it’s a very boring straightforward plot that leaves no room for cool theories
@@fatman157 I don't know about now but Vaati absolutely sugar coated Dark Souls 2 before that game came out since he was working with Bandai. Now DS2 is actually my favorite souls game but Vaati absolutely shilled back then
My issue with the DLC is that none of it's plot was hinted at in the main game Rahdan and malenia were presented as rivals, miquella was presented as a kind person who wanted to save the lands rather than force everyone to play nice But the biggest issue is that the cinematic trailer set up questions that the DLC never bothered to answer
Well bewitching branches already hinted at Miquella’s true nature. So I fully expected him to not be what he seemed. Yeah the marketing stuff felt way better than what we actually got. A lot more about Marika and the past and seemingly made it seem like Miquella would be more involved than he was. Then there’s the thing with Miquella/Marika riding Torrent in the initial teaser that meant nothing as well as the cutscene from the gameplay trailer they removed
Miquella being evil is established in the base game, Malenia calls him the most fearsome empyrean, she was very very afraid of him (probably before being bewitched into waiting for him forever at the Haligtree). Base game already was very clear in saying Miquella was a mysterious character who explored all possibilities of faith, science and gender (similar to the player and Marika, to some extent) but somehow became too dangerous. Mohg’s obsession with Miquella and Malenia’s comment made it hard to believe Miquella was actually a victim in all that conundrum. Malenia having been somehow tricked into fighting Radahn was a common theory given how weird it was, and the DLC explains it. It was just TOO simple and direct of an ending, very unlike From Software and very boring, the laziest ending you could build from what WAS established in the base game.
@@qwirkt yeah the way he was seemingly praised in everything was odd to me but after finding that bewitching branch lore I just knew that he wasn’t a good as everything made him out to be. The DLC delivering on that was one of the aspects I was happy with. My issue was with the rest of the story that aside from the awesome NPCs, like Ansbach and Thiolier, the story was so lackluster. They had so much room to do so much cool stuff and they squandered it with a repeat boss (who’s more Godfrey than he is Radahn) and an abrupt, hollow ending. It’s just over with a memory showing us something we’d already heard multiple times before. Fun fact for anyone who doesn’t know. Miquella’s model in the memory links back to the egg in Mogh’s boss room in the game files meaning it’s likely from an older version of stuff they scrapped and repurposed for the DLC.
I just found it extra sad that this is quite possibly the last Elden Ring content we ever get. Miyazaki said something about focusing on smaller games from now on. Not that an Elden Ring sequel can't happen but for this to be the final chapter of new lore for the forseeable future just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I figured it would tie into the base game more than it does. Stuff about Godwyn, stuff about the Gloam Eyed Queen, stuff about the true nature of Melina etc. they didnt even touch on some of the biggest themes and mysteries from the base game. The DLC feels almost wholly disconnected. Other than the Shaman Village and the smallest lore about Marika's past, I gained very little insight from the DLC about the overall story. And Malenia couldnt have even been mentioned anywhere, yknow, the Blade of Miquella?
Also, it did a really bad job of explaining the new ideas it added as well. Like, it all felt even more vague and murky than the base game content already does. And that's saying something. I understand what the Scadutree was/did/meant even less than I understood exactly what the Erdtree was/did/meant, for example.
Godwyn had his soul destroyed, dude had a biblical level death. He isn't coming back. Also the DLC ties extremely well into the base game. We learned the history of Marika, the subjugation of the hornsent, the relationship of the drakes and ancient dragons, and Metyr was one of the biggest revelations to the overall plot of the game. We even found out that Melina is a child of Marika. In terms of flushing out the world pre-erd tree, I think the DLC did a pretty good job. No matter what, some things will always be left up to interpretation.
@@bigsundays9058I disagree that it ties in "extremely well" but to each their own. Like I said, in regards to answering mysteries from the base game we learned about Marika's origin.. and I admit small tidbits of lore scattered throughout about Placidusax, and the finger spiders. But in terms of things that were huge mysteries before the DLC was revealed? They're all still mysteries now after the DLC. Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't know what a horn sent was before literally entering the DLC. It felt disconnected.
When it comes to the nature of FromSoft story telling, there will always be questions unanswered, which is usually the beauty of the story telling. While there will be concrete statements and details. There is always room for the interpretation of the player. Something that updates over time with new discoveries through playthroughs or revisiting old details with a new frame of mind. The innate challenge with this kind of story telling is determining which questions you choose to answer in subsequent content. This because answering one question could create three more. In terms of revelations related to the base game we got some important ones, to expand on the Drakes and the Ancient Dragons. We learned about the very nature of Dragon Communion and why Placidusax is injured as well as where the split in their species originated. We also learned about Metyr, which is the creation all the fingers are communicating with, who has abandoned Marika because she was also abandoned by the Greater Will. The hornsent are just another name for the Omen. Before Marika's rise to power, the Hornsent were the ruling civilization. The Hornsent had a practice of flaying Marika's people and stuffing them into Jars. Marika's rise to godhood was built on a desire to exact revenge in the name of her people. This is why Shaman village is empty. When Marika eventually came to power, she used her new found power to purge the hornsent. When she created her age, many of the symbols of hornsent became reviled. Their very names and culture was overshadowed by their portrayal as the Omen or the cursed ones. Which explains why the Omen in the base game are treated as unworthy in the era of the erdtree. No one in the lands between knows about the hornsent because there history was intetionally hidden by Marika to make it seem as though they were always second class. This is atleast my interpretation
There's generally a pattern in the way the game tries to motivate us to fight its bosses -- and 90% of the time, the person you're forced to fight cannot possibly be reasoned with. Often due to insanity. Renalla? Insane. Malenia? Foggy mind and attacks on sight. Basegame Radahn? Insane & dying. Marika/Radagon? An empty zombie husk with no will. Midra? Self explanatory. You get the picture. Out of all the game bosses, Miquella is the first of his status that is not deranged, had a clear mind and could potentially be reasoned with. And one of the main issues I have with the DLC is how forced the Miquella fight feels, it feels like we only do it because Fromsoft wants us to. About two thirds through the game, Fromsoft start really trying to convince us that Miquella is evil - we are literally told what to think about Miquella by other NPCs, who keep saying that he's a monster because... He's supernaturally charming...? We never see him actually do anything horrible, or anything more evil than the rest of the cast. What he does is simply the reality of that world and the power structures within. And yet they try to paint him as the kind of evil we must get rid of...? Because what? Because we're the player and everything in the story has to serve the player...? It just feels cheap. Seemingly, it was easy for them to write their stories about deranged half rotten monsters in positions of power, but the moment they try to do something different, something that involves a mentally healthy being, their writing just falls apart.
Also Miquella was completely right to dump St. Trina into that cesspit, because what the actual fuck is her point...??? The fate of the world and all those living in it is at stake and all you can think of is that Miquella might have to suffer? Being a ruler is always about making sacrifices, it's about being selfless, even if to an extent. So her entire point just looks extremely self centered. Yeah, let the world burn, but at least this one person won't suffer... This is the opposite of the kind of mindset you should have as a ruler.
Mentally healthy? He divests himself of his capacity to love. The moment you find that cross is the moment the way it all ends becomes clear. We kill Miquella because a loveless god of compassion won't fix the world. Trina knows this, so Trina asks us to kill him.
While I agree with almost everything you say, there is one respect in which I disagree: That From Soft can't write a justification to fight a mentally healthy boss. There are actually several completely sane bosses in Soulsborne games, but I'm gonna focus on one game in particular: Sekiro. Quite a few of the bosses in that game are actually perfectly cognizant and could theoretically be reasoned with, but its impossible because they see Wolf as standing in the way of their goals, or they are honor-bound to fight him to the death. If they'd had Miquella say something like "Your very existence is a threat to my new age" or "the Tarnished are all pawns of Marika and cannot be allowed to live" or even "I know you killed Malenia, so now I'mma kill you" then at least we would have a reason to fight him, but he just politely asks us to step aside and let him and his boytoy claim the Elden Ring and we don't even get an option to say "okay!"
The issue with Miquella is that, once more, he is a boss that cannot be reasoned with; he is explicitly stated to have removed his "doubts and vacillations", meaning he cannot even doubt his own plan, let alone listen to the player. As for Miquella's "evil", even Ansbach calls him "tender" while calling him a monster as well; Miquella's monstrous nature is the false kindness he genuinely wishes to force on people. You have two choices, to fight him or lose your own autonomy and the free choice of the world. Miquella is a tragic figure, one who wishes for the best but who will enslave the world to get what he sees as best. You
My biggest problem with this ending is that it makes the dlc feel without purpose, think of the artorias dlc and how it was about giving artorias a dignified end and create the very legend we've been hearing about all game, or the ringed city and from it a new gentle world can now be born, or the old hunters and how we break the curse by freeing the orphan and give doll and gehrman some peace, I get none of that from sote, the land and its people reserve no conclusion, the shadow tree remains a withered reminder of their abandonment, you don't get to climb the divine steps, you don't know how Messmer ties to any of this, you're not even given a choice to side with miquella Another thing I wanna point out is the visual representation of the narrative and how jarring it feels, one of the reasons why radagon works so well is because he's a god of gold in a game all about the brilliance and strength of gold, sote is all about light and dark, life and death and yet the final boss uses gravity and blood magic alongside light for some reason?
Fantastic points! Like you said, FromSoft is usually so good at conveying an emotional response through its lore and its environments and it just feels completely squandered with Promised Consort Radahn. And I really like your point about the visual representation. Now that you mention it, it does feel very bizarre that the final boss in a DLC called “Shadow of the Erdtree” that takes place underneath the Scadutree doesn't incorporate shadows/the dark at all.
I feel that the story of the DLC was the cycle of violence and how the Land of Shadow had no grand answers for people like Miquella, along with further devastation from Marika's scars and decisions. The only goal Marika ultimately seems to have is killing the Elden Beast, apparently from a sense of betrayal, and she notably does not care about what transpires to accomplish this, even if everyone is harmed in the process. Now, with that said, the DLC's story could have emphasized and fleshed out this point *far better* than it did. More characters needed to remark on Miquella's desperation. A line or two needed to address the Cleansing Chamber and how it seemingly burns away Empyreans' "flaws", thus making Miquella's resulting state likely no better than Marika. The memory after the final battle needed to address exactly how Miquella sought to make a gentler world in the past, so as to emphasize the tragedy of him choosing something utterly corrupt (constantly oppressing people with his powers) or something so impractically naive as to never work in the setting. Also, unrelated to Miquella, the DLC needed to explain what in the world the Scadutree is. Does it automatically exist as a requirement to having the Erdtree? If so, why? Did Marika split her initial tree, be it created or inherited as a god, into separate trees, akin to, say, the nameless Namekian and Piccolo in Dragon Ball? Why is the Scadutree seemingly kicking its own butt by forcing sap out? Are the people of the Land of Shadow forcing the Scadutree to provide blessings via the power of sheer resentment? If so, why didn't the same happen to the Erdtree when it stopped providing regular blessings? Some major things feel like they're lacking the standard level of explanation quality, or even implication quality, that they regularly have in From Software's works, even the main game of Elden Ring.
@@garrulousgoldmask Miquella brings a lot of light at least, and the Gate of Divinity speaks to figuratively dark deeds to give Miquella his power. Either way, I feel the Scadutree needed more answered about it in general.
@@nightscout9979 I have every question you mentioned and more. Everything about the Scadutree is way too vague, even by From standards. It's such a literally massive thing the visual design clearly wants you to stare at with awe and wonder, and nobody talks about it at all and it has nothing to do with the plot. You can't tell me that they didn't cut content to get SotE out the door, the conceptual dots don't even begin to come anywhere near lining up.
I keep thinking that the best outcome is always something new and unexpected for a final boss on a DLC, but if FS really wanted to lean on fanservice, they should have gone all out. Not taking into account resources and time, it would have been cool if the eventual consort was a result of your actions. Maybe doing Frerya's quests ends up with Radahn being the Promised Consort and doing something like St. Trina's quest makes Malenia the Consort, tapping into the rivalry between the two again. All of this from a narrative POV of course. Maybe doing neither gives you a regular, new and innovative boss. Giving you options with consequences based on what you want.
I definitely like the idea of Miquella's consort changing! Now that I think of it, I don't think FromSoft has really done something like that before for a boss fight so even if it failed, it would have gotten points for originality.
@@bigsundays9058 if radahn wasn’t as popular as he was in the base game they most definitely wouldn’t have made him the final boss. They made him the final boss because the community was so vocal about fighting prime radahn. So yes this is fan service.
I think the problem isn't that Godwyn aint the final boss. The problem is that its Radahn. My guess would have been Miquella alone or the Divine Beast God incarnation
Yeah while I can live without Godwyn, Radahn was a terrible choice. I think we should’ve fought Miquella himself without anyone aiding him. Or anything new.
I feel like they were setting up something bigger with Miquella and St. Trina too, but looking back, they messed up somewhere. Cutting St. Trina’s original quest was a big misstep and could’ve set her up properly and make her even sadder. The fact that they reused Gloam Knight/Gloam assets for Trina’s area doesn’t sit right with me. Also baiting us with the cutscene and having us think we’ll side with Miquella is a horrible choice by the marketing team -_- I’d also like to think the statue is Godwyn with the twins. I like that Miquella respected him. Miquella having no ending makes me regret buying the DLC collectors edition, but I got a Messmer statue out of it. I guess. Miquella deserved that Funko figure 😔 games never let us side with the feminine guys. Ugh.
"You fight Fia's onlyfans subscribers" lol. I agree 100%. GOATwyn should have been somewhere in the DLC. I mean they had to know people expected that...For Marika's sake the Night of the black knives is the biggest mystery in Elden Ring. Got nothing from that at all in the dlc.
Yeah, even an item noting Miquella's disappointment with the viciousness that war naturally entails, and that the Redmanes thus regularly do, would have been appreciated. Miquella seems to have resorted to a feeling he had when he was especially young and naive, and something should have addressed that he had to ignore his better judgment, and not just the broad aspect of him removing chunks of his soul.
Radan over Godwyn is such a tragedy. We have a character that's been deeply related to Miquella since the base game, with a mysterious eclipse(a very interesting symbol, especially in the context of Elden ring), the trigger point for the shattering, a mysterious conspiracy, a gazillion mysteries regarding death, they were best buds to boot ; and instead of exploring all of the interesting routes they could take with what was previously set up... we get Radan completely out of left field, with practically nothing added to the lore other than "Miquella made a promise with Radan". regardless of whether it makes sense or not for Radan to be the consort it is much much less interesting to the point it's just confusing as a choice for a final boss.
The final boss of the DLC is Miquella. Are these Godwyn people really this unintelligent wtf lol. Godwyn is in the game he's in the entire game. Also Miquella has "deep" ties to Malenia and only Malenia/St. Trina. He is mentioned with Radahn, Godwyn, Malenia, St Trina. He tried to bring back Godwyn and failed for obvious reasons, you know since his soul is destroyed.
@@SM-nz9ff he didnt fail for "obvious reasons" otherwise he wouldnt try in the first place. We dont know why the eclipse failed, or what it even means in the first place. And the fact that godwin is souless could have played a major roll into his "resurection". I dont really see how miquella having ties to other characters is relevant to the conversation. A pretty nothing comment to be insulting others peoples inteligence. Dunning-krueger, I guess.
It's a real shame how this all panned out in its execution. Upon revisiting the DLC, it's really quite brilliant how Radahn's reappearance brings full-circle all these different motifs seen throughout the DLC, such as the divine horned warrior, the dual swords that look like horns, the soul of a lion inhabiting a sculpted vessel, the union of god and lord into a single divine entity, et cetera. Not only do I now accept Radahn as the promised consort, but I understand that it really could not have been anyone BUT Radahn as the final boss. However, the handling of this whole situation in terms of the plot was not ideal, and I don't know of a single person whose first impression of Radahn's reappearance was a good one. I could not possibly have better prepared myself for the lore of this DLC, and even I was utterly blindsided by the revelation, and not in a good way. It really came off like contrived fanfiction. I remember first watching the cutscene, and my only thought at the time was, "the internet is going to be arguing about this moment for years to come." Like all Fromsoft stories, it makes much more sense on subsequent replays, but sadly, most people only play these games once. I just wish From could've handled this with a bit more finesse, and made a less jarring first impression of it.
@@launcelotdulake8075 The more I think about the Miquella/Radahn connection, the less sense it makes. You start thinking about what characters are doing in the base game and the shattering war and why, and I can’t understand any of it, some of it feels outright incoherent.
@@ioverslept. Cool, can you explain why Malenia is just hanging out at the Haligtree when she knows exactly what Miquella's plan is, and why she isn't trying to kill Mohg when she knows Miquella's entire plan depends on Mohg being dead? Why is Miquella just hoping some random tarnished just happens to wander across the single most tucked away demigod in the game? Why are none of Miquella's followers present during the Radahn festival?
You brought up two major issues I myself had with the DLC: 1) It should have been Godwyn instead of Radahn. Miquella was shown in the base game to look up to Godwyn, and was trying multiple ways to help him. So going to the Land of Death to resurrect Godwyn's spirit into a consort would fit Miquella's motivations like a glove; he gets his big bro back, and he succeeds his mother as the new god. Two birds, one stone. Instead, we were robbed of a boss fight with possibly the strongest of the demigods. 2) The memory we find after beating the final boss is a once in a game lore opportunity. It's straight from Miquella's fading consciousness, so we know it's most likely going to be from the past we've never seen as a tarnished, and mostly likely trustworthy as a primary source. It could have shown us Miquella's naked motivations, or an interaction with another character that completely changes our perspective, or even filled in so many different parts of the lore that desperately need elaborating. Instead, we get shown nothing new. What a waste. Speaking strictly from a lore perspective, I find the DLC a disappointment. It did a lot of good work with Marika, but it ignored a lot of things it probably shouldn't have, and even seemed to retcon some things.
If FromSoft didn't want to put in the work for Promised Consort Radahn, then I definitely agree that Godwyn would have been more satisfying on all levels. And that's a great point about the memory being such a unique lore opportunity! In the base game, we had something a bit similar with Melina hearing the spoken echoes of Marika (though I do think some of them may have been spoken by Radagon). But even that is just secondhand and not a complete cutscene. The closest I can think of to directly seeing a memory from another character's POV is in Bloodborne with Master Willem and Laurence. And that scene is absolutely iconic and reveals one of the most important events in the history of Yharnam.
@Elden-Bear not even close there's multiple set ups for godwyn to come back that wouldn't mess with the base game, with how loose the magic system it would be easy.
@Elden-Bear Retcon what? The eclipse and now the gate of divinity are perfect possibilities for Godwyns revival. "But the eclipse failed" that's what the land of shadow is for, it's a separate physical place so the writers can justify anything there that doesn't mess with the base game. "But his souls is dead" Only frenzy flame (messmers flame too?) is stated to completely destroy, so his soul can still be out there or whatever. Maybe in the spirit world or some other afterlife mentioned. I don't even care for godwyn at this point, but to write off possibilities as if ER's world systems is so rigid and stable is ridiculous.
Especially considering the fact that this may be the last piece of ER content ever, the narrative problems extend to the entire game. There are things like the Nox and Marika, the Gloam-eyed queen (and Melina?), Roderika and spirit tuning, etc. that are just never brought up again. It really feels like things being pulled out of thin air rather than From's signature lore diving.
The DLC did no worldbuilding, it just told a very straightforward story. Aside from the Hornsent which are also very very straightforward. Maybe they developed the DLC parallel to the main game in some way and that is why they designed the DLC to not have anything too connected/relevant to the main game?
@@qwirkt the world building part that works in the DLC imo is the jar saints and what they imply about Marika. That part is super interesting and the only thing I think would've made it stronger is a tiny hint at how Radagon came to be. But otherwise it was interesting. That includes Messmer, the Fingers, Metyr, what's implied with the Greater Will, etc. Miquella, Radahn and St. Trina (including the Putrescent Knight) is where the bulk of the weakness is. I saw someone speculate that there might've been two DLC at some point (Marika lore and Miquella story) and I get why it feels that way, because there is a sharp contrast in depth and complexity between the two elements.
- The Rise of Marika, Shaman Village - How the Hornsent became the reviled Omen, and their persecution by Mesmer - The nature of dragon communion, the war between drakes and ancient dragons - Meeting a lord of frenzied flame other than the player - Metyr and the Greater Will
Radahn is particularly strange even in the base game. He's the only demigod without an explicit goal, we know a lot about him, but it seems like he's deliberately written so we don't know what he wants. Everything is told to us secondhand vs characters like Malenia or Rykard where we hear it from their mouths. It's continued in the DLC...but as you and others have said, this really falls flat for a final boss because you don't want to be wondering why they're the final boss to begin with. Maybe there's some meta angles Radahn was chosen (even before the fab favorite status, he was Miyazaki's favorite boss, so the team probably had an idea he'd be a beloved character,) but it's still handled in a way that isn't ultimately clear enough to the player. I love how cryptic From is normally about their stories, this is maybe the first time in any of their games I found their cards to the chest approach a little lacking.
Using the Mending Rune Of Death should've allowed for Godwyns resurrection. Allowing for Miquella to charm him into being his consort. But, this all being unbeknownst to us until we reach the fog gate. It would've been so rewarding. The base game does so much to get us to empathize with Godwyn. The night of the black knives is literally the opening scene. Blight is everywhere including Farum. Godwyn is the main reason for castle sol. So many quest lines intersect with Godwyn. 😫 Why couldn't I be a game developer?
Yeah... I don't really like how ambiguous everything is about Radahn and Miquella. I don't like the nagging feeling of "am I the bad guy for fighting him? Or was I a hero for stopping a brainwashed dictatorship?" Like.... For once, just tell me what my role was. Either way, I feel bad for Miquella. Either reading makes him a tragic figure. A fallen hero who abandoned too much of himself. Thus, repeating the same mistakes his mother did.... Yay for generational trauma! Or... a hero struck down by a greedy monster, who selfishly wanted to be the only one to sit upon the Elden Throne. (Or go to space with their new wife.) Again, it would have been nice to just KNOW what it was I did.
@@melchiorsmokes I couldn't agree more with you my dear friend. Many people have given from software too much credit recently with elden ring and shadow of the erdtree, something they don't deserve in such a very positive manner or way, seeing how flawed the game is in so many areas. I can get it from the newbies that just have gotten into this genre by elden ring and some of the veterans, but for the vast majority of us this is mostly a letdown in many ways. Becoming a mainstream game really hurt this community that while it wasn't perfect before, it was more quiet and you could talk about the goodies and bads of the games in so many ways. Now you can't criticize this flawed game known as Elden ring in any form without somebody coming here and telling you :"lmao you are just a hater and need to git gud". I still love elden ring despite these glaring flaws but it is inferior and it's below other games such as lies of p, black myth wukong, stellar blade where they are actually evolving the genre in so many ways.
I think the reason people are so quick to justify and defend the game, and discredit the opinions and intelligence of anyone offering criticism, is because that’s what they have to do to be okay with how the game turned out themselves. They can probably see how flawed ER and especially its DLC are, but have had to convince themselves somehow that no, there’s a reason it all feels like this, surely it’s still the masterpiece they were expecting, it all must be intentional… And the people pointing it out, saying “hey, uh, this actually wasn’t that great after all” threaten the peace of mind they’ve had to find. It’s like why so many people get insanely patriotic in the US when this place has so clearly gone down the wrong path. If they can’t take pride in their country, what can they take pride in? They’d rather fight for an unjust cause, than accept the reality that their cause is unjust.
@@eliasfigarzon9813What flaws? This game is still a solid 9 at the very least. I would ask you take the rose tinted glasses off for a second and remember that ever since dark souls there were always people who shit on the next game. "Dark souls isn't like demon souls" "Dark souls 2 isn't dark souls" "Dark souls 3 is bullshit hard" "Bloodborne is too hard and the lore makes no sense" "Sekiro is just complete and utter shit, no builds, just r1 spam, tools are useless, bosses are lame compared to the other games, the final boss is bs" Not to mention the lore people who were a minority that got larger but lacked the ability to be civil and accused every relevant guy of stealing from another. I don't want to bust out the list of complaints but let me tell you, you've got a serious case of forgetitis.
@@BygoneT lmao kid what's wrong with you? Can't accept the facts? OK I'll tell you some of the list here. Lore is all over the place and broken. Terrible design in so many areas. Bad boss Design, the worst of the whole souls series. Side quest are impossible to track due to the open world. Open world lacks spaces where you can do something and not just stare at the landscape because it is empty. Lack of replay value even though it is an open world game. Bad leveling system for the dlc. Bosses from other games that aren't souls are here. Looking at you malenia. So many reused bosses and enemies. They need to learn from black myth wukong here. The camera is the worst here. So many repeated bosses here. Again, they need to look at black myth wukong here. Weird hit boxes in many areas. And the list goes on, now feel free to attack me with your ideas about how wrong I am in everything I say here.
@@eliasfigarzon9813 What are you even saying "kid" for? Isn't there a guy right above my comment saying things about getting defensive and insulting others? Pointing out you're forgetting things isn't an insult. What are some examples of all over the place lore? Terrible design is subjective, next. Loved every single area. Bad boss design is subjective, next. Radahn is my favourite boss of the DLC, top 3 bosses of the entire game followed by Malenia who I died to over 1000 times. The only gripe I have about a boss in this DLC is reusing the lion but that's lore justified. Side quests being impossible to track was the same in the base game, a minor issue if you explore like a maniac like I do, but creating quests like it's King's Field was their idea. It does feel amazing to complete them without using any help, which is entirely possible is part of the intent. Sometimes even on ps5 you can miss NPCs taking time to load in. But this depends on the quest. Manus metyr quests are right there, Freya is easy, Ansbach too, Thiollier was the only annoying one along with Moore but once you know where to go it's all right. The dragon priestess is trivially easy, not to mention Igon. This point is void of any reason, what does "do something other than stare into empty space" even mean? There are enemies to fight, castles to assault, tears to get from the giant walking cauldrons of doom, paintings to solve, items to find, etc. Void point, genuinely feels random to see it here, it's like you stopped at the first opening of the DLC and went no further. Nah lack of replay value is insane. Actually out of this world, there is legitimately a tear that unlocks Sekiro in ER and you're telling me that's not worth several playthroughs? I will replay this to death. The aesthetics variety in this DLC is huge, i love every boss, adds tons of materials and cool weapons, idk what you're on about. The leveling system is an issue because of what? Collecting it? You barely need 12 to be efficient. I don't mind it at all. I don't think it's great barring the big numbers of damage you'd never get to see otherwise. Not great not bad to me. But it does solve the fundamental problem of people coming in over leveled for their first experiences and shitting on it because they're OP. If that's the only intent then it's a good system. Bad bosses from other games? Holy still going on about that thing. It's like the people who still say poise is off in ds3. Malenia is amazing and I will not stand for this slander. All of her moves can be dealt with, not a single one is impossible to counter in some way. Fighting her is like dancing, I always leave a character in front of her and PCRadahn if I want to fight them to pass 30 minutes and never beat them just to try it with another weapon. I rarely had camera problems. Don't know what to tell you. Yeah there are a couple repeated bosses, so? Oh no... I don't receivemental damage from it. Godefroy is not my favourite boss, but he doesn't diminish my experience, to make a point. Asset reuse is a standard in videogames, legit doesn't matter when the map is bigger and better than promised, with all the spells and weapons added, tears, AoW, etc. This DLC is as big as a full game but at reasonable price. Idk about weird hitboxes but I played not too long ago for the first time Maybe they were fixed. Haven't played BMW but will eventually get to it. if you like it good for you, but in no way does it mean anything that you prefer their approach.
Yeah, there's not much I can add because you explained my thoughts very well. It's not that Radahn being the promised consort can't work it's just that the execution is poor, sadly. It feels like the DLC needed more development time, really. Even if you read everything, pay attention to the environment, etc., it still leaves you feeling like something's missing. Why the heck do we fight Romina? Because she's in the way, that's why. Why is Messmer blocking the path to Miquela even when Miquela is supposedly trying to "undo" his and their mother's crimes? Because he's in the way, that's why. Why is Radahn fighting us? Uuuh... Because... promised consort shenanigans? But we don't get a glimpse of motive on his part. We know what Miquella wants, but Radahn could've been a souless automaton and not much would've changed. One could try to argue that that's the point, that Miquella turns people into puppets, but we have seen that it's not the case: Malenia, Leda, Dane, Thiollier, Ansbach, Leda... All people pledged to Miquella in some way, some of the confirmed to be charmed, but they still show purpose and a variety of interests and degrees of conformity. Miquella's compulsion doesn't strip people of all their personality. Edit to add: The only thing that Miquella's final memory adds, if any, is a confirmation that Miquella's intentions were true, but, still... why do we need that confirmation? That's one of the things it's fun to speculate about. Radahn's motives right now I wouldn't even consider as worthy of speculation: we've got NOTHING on them, so we can only invent them from scratch and, at that point, it's 100 % fanfiction.
Both Romina and Rellana were prime examples of just how bad the time crunch must have gotten. Both hugely important characters with whole backstories and we learn nothing that connects to any larger narrative. Hell, the most lore important character ended up being Bayle which completely contradicts the ongoing theme of "history being lost through time." We learned more about ancient beings than about current, ongoing dynasties. Very strange all around.
@BigBadWolframio WE can sort of ascertain Radahn's motivation by what we know about his goals prior. We know he ditched the Golden Order when he decided to join Miquella so the next ppssible explanation was that Radahn just wanted to be Elden Lord and was grateful that Miquella gave him the opportunity to be so when he was revived, so just joined him out of solidarity even though initially they were in disagreement. And to be fair, we fight a LOT of from bosses just cause they're in the way even in their dlcs. Demon prince, Ludwig, Artorias, crystal sage, curse rotted greatwood, vordt, dancer, pontiff, Kalameet, Living Failures, One reborn, shadows of yharnam, martyr logarius(since the hunter just wanted to uncover the mysteries of the castle) and even Lady Maria to an extent(we want to unlock the secrets of the old hunters and she doesn't want that). I think the real thing we should be critsizing here is some of the dlc bosses don't do a good job of establishingWHY we fight THEM. There is no real reason why Romina may want to fight us and it sucks cause elden Ring, more than any other fromsoft game, does a pretty stellar job at establishing boss motivations EVEN in the same dlc. Shame both Romina and Rellana got none of that. Rellana could have literally had a 5 second cutscene where she just says that she knows were going to hurt Messmer and it's her duty to not let that happen. Or Have a cutscene where Romina is pissed and cursing the golden order and fights us since we have guilt by association. As for Radahn, it's pretty simple There can only be one lord. And he wants to be Elden Lord. So we gotta go.
The Bewitching Branches make people kill their own allies, so Miquella can severely brainwash people, and he does so to the Tarnished with the grab attack, so that's likely the case with the revived Radahn. Messmer hates that a Tarnished is selected to be Elden Lord since it's a new, severe betrayal and he's been badly hurt already. Also, if Messmer knows what a Tarnished is, then he likely knows what the guidance of Grace leading Tarnished to a demi-god entails, and feels that Marika is ordering the Tarnished to kill him. The seal on Messmer might also be forcing him to fight those without Grace to an extent, and once the seal is gone, there's the matter of the abyssal serpent's influence. Romina is likely a minion of the Scarlet Rot by that point and thus is directed to attack everyone. That said, I agree that the execution for Miquella wanting Radahn as his consort is very poor. If a player doesn't do *all* of Ansbach and Freyja's quest, they will be tremendously lost, and the idea feels weak even then. There needed to be more to emphasize Miquella being desperate and grabbing at straws, with characters in the setting even being surprised and disappointed in Miquella for taking such an aimless shot in the dark. It can be inferred that Miquella wasn't the knows-everything, unpressured, flawless savior that some people hoped him to be, but more needed to go into expressing how he was at his wit's end and cracking. The tragedy of his abduction ruining the Haligtree plan, something even Marika seemingly thought had merit due to her noted sorrow Gideon mentions upon the kidnapping, needed to be addressed again as well.
Messmer death was necessary for the tarnished to burn the branches of the shadow tree obstructing enir ilim. The reason we fight Radahn is kinda obvious. We aint allowing any other lords other than us, regardless of their intentions. Also the mid fight cutscene kinda heavily implies that Radahns soul is returned to that body, as per the vow. No clue as to what is going on with Romina though
So Miquella's plan was to get kidnapped, get Mogh under his control, fkn die, have his sister go for Radahn, have her kill Radahn(which failed btw we had to do it), then for someone to kill Mogh???, to then ressurect Radahn through Mogh which would mean he had to follow the accord, then to have his called champions burn the shadow, and then ascend. That plan is so bad xD, like it can fail so easily. Why didn't he just ascended with Mogh and trick him to abandon formless mother xd, or do so with his sister, if he wanted Radahn cause he was strong but then had his sister go after him to kill him, wouldn't that make his sister stronger than Radahn xd. And then Godwyn why do so much for him if you gonna abondon him, what with eclipse what with the sword dedicated to him, RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH.
I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective. He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily. No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready. He just needs someone to kill Radahn which people are trying to do. He charmed Radahn so he doesn't need him to follow the vow. He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood. He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq. They seem to have emerged after Miq passed through. Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line, he was so crushed by his mother abandoning him he sided with Miq and put the thorns as a way to defend him.
Mogh kidnapping him is not part of the plan IMHO by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land. Also there’s a lot of sign that touches is needed for her charm to works. It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. He either accept he won’t become god or concoct a new plan. Remember that the stories happened for thousands of years and not a human lifetime
@@yudistiraliem135 "by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land. " I mean I don't think they can get to Shadowlands, a god arisen there while they were missing ? "It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. " To be honest I think that could be true, he was asleep so he couldn't control Mogh but after he was taken then he could. The problem with that is, he already sent his sister to kill Radahn indicating that he already planned to have him as his Lord, but to ressurect him he would require a demigod's body, and I don't think he had a spare in his fridge xd
@@specialnewb9821 "I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective." Yeah that makes sense kind of weird to see Malenia being used as a pawn though.. "He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily." Yeah I can see that, but he ascended before Radahn was ressurected. Miq returened and was like: oh hi bro glad to see you, so he could have done the same thing, also Radahn had Mogh's body and he used blood magic so it's not like Radahn is clean of outer god influance xd. "No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready." Why he didn't do it then xD (I know game reasons but after we kill Radahn, Mogh should be there dead by your logic) Also I am not sure how far the influance extends to, we see soldiers exploding in his name so I guess that's possible?? "He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood." I mean there is one NPC who said that they failed at bringing eclipse but it could have happened in Shadowlands land of the dead xd, it would be nice if the game actually said something about Miq actually failing in the DLC to bring Godwyn. Eclipse is said to keep the destined death away so just omitting it is sad, I mean it's weird that so many people believe it exists and has it's influance while it doesn't. "He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq." We were called to Shadowlands to go to find Miquella why would he do that if he didn't need us? Though you are right "Kind Miquella is bound for the tower of shadow. If we are to reach him" it doesn't say that Miquella can't go through the shadows so I am more on your side here though it doesn't say that he already crossed it, it says that he is still bound to it. "Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line" well it was cut and the Messmer that we find is pro Marika
My biggest question is why is it so important who the consort is? I feel like the ending just talked about the consort. My consort this, consort that. Who cares. I wanted to know more about miquella and his age. Not who his wedding.
The consort is likely the enforcer of the age, For Marika, it was Godfrey, Radagon, and the player, before her, since Placidusax was the Elden Lord prior, they were likely the consort of whichever god ruled before. Miquella wants to rule an age of "compassion" so he would need a strong champion to enact it.
@@emiliocharreton7700 they seem to exist in tandem, The gods often seem unable to exact their own will, which is why they seemingly choose someone stronger than themselves , at least physically, as lords.
I always thought we were gonna fight Malenia again, as her true form of godess of rot, giving the clues in her fight (cut content, no "demigod felled" at the end etc...), I even think that they replaced her with Romina... So strange Plus, the last words of the DLC should have been those of Sir Ansbach : "become a lord, not for gods, but for men"
The dlc made the timeline more confusing and didn't answer much from the base game, godwyn even though it is said by rogier that his death was the reason for the shattering, has very little information about him on the base game We just know that he defeated fortissax and died That's it Its very strange for a caracther that should be one of the most important
Also why would the DLC cover the shattering, that's what the base game was about. The DLC was meant the cover Marika's ascension to Godhood and Miquella's attempts at following in her steps. Where would Godwyn fit into any of this?
Honestly as someone who puts elden ring as one of his favourites gane ever, i was quite disappointed with the lore of the dlc. I think that one of the best things that the base game did was how they set up the characters before you fight them, you get to know every demigod in some capacity before you fight them, and then when you finally fight them the cutscene and dialogue of the fight put the icing on the cake and make the boss feel like actually well written characters. The characters were also all connected to each other in some way and that added depth to the world, it made it feel more believable. This is also why The Old Hunters is one of my favourite pieces of content, it checks all the marks on how to make the bosses feel more than just video game enemies. The dlc completely regresses on this philosophy and i just find that to be very disappointing. The only characters that have proper build up to them are Messmer, Bayle, Midra and Miquella, but like this video says Miquella's story is confusing, and all of these characters are completely unrelated to each other. Every other boss is this same exact thing but worse, Romina, Rellana, the avatar, Gaius ecc just feel like normal enemies in a video game without any kind of motivation to fight you, the lore from their item descriptions is cool, but they simply lack anything else to feel more than random encounters, they just pale in comparison to any other character roster from any of their most recent games, and a massive downgrade to base game elden ring which is a shame because the dlcs generally tend to be better.
I agree with this so much! The DLC helped me understand a lot of why I really like the base game. Take a character like Godrick. If he was just, in a room with no buildup, he'd be pretty uninteresting. But Stormveil's ornate golden trimmings contrasted with the decay of the castle do such a good job at characterising him. Then when you get to him, he demands your respect despite his sickly, mangled appearance. Everyone likes to point out how Godrick is pathetic, and while he is, FromSoft do a great job at making him feel like a menace. He's a deluded maniac who's attained unfathomable strength, it really compels you to want to defeat him, aside from just ticking off the demigod murder list. I never got that feeling with the DLC, aside from with Messmer (and Bayle and Midra to a lesser extent)
That is a very important point to make. Why do the bosses in SotE fight us? Don't they want to rejoin the Golden Order? Does anything we do affect the state of the Lands of Shadow after we beat Miquedahn? I have no clue, this doesn't seem to affect the main story of the Lands Between, nor the story of the Lands of Shadow...
Ludwig isn't connected to Maria outside of both being hunters, nor does he have anything to do with the living failures. But if we go by thst logic, we can't condemn the dlc bosses for "having no connection" since all of them except for Midra and Bayle were screwed over by Marika in some way. And the demon princes have jack all to do with Midir and Halflight. And Gael doesn't have any connection to any of the bosses outside of association of all of them being subject under Gwyn's rule at some point but that can be said for a lot of bosses. Kalameet isn't even relevant to the plot of his dlc. The only narrative purpose he serves is to give Gough something to do outside of exposition.
@@thesnatcher3616 Ludwig is connected to the healing church, therefore being connected to laurence, Maria is connected to all the bosses past ludwig and she has a whole area to build her up. The other point you made is just a strawman argument. I never said anything about the ringed city, and it doesn't matter anyway because the scope of that dlc is completely different. My major point was about how much worse the characters in the dlc were compared to base game elden ring and your counter argument is "uhhhm, kalameet is not a major part of the dark souls dlc"
I feel that, when you look at events prior, it becomes painfully obvious that Radahn isnt allied with Miquella by the time of the Shattering War. Sure, he may have made the vow when they were younger, but, for one reason or another, he broke it off. As for Godwyn...well, considering that he's tied to a questline that can easily be messed up and locked out, it makes sense that he's bsrely involved in the dlc.
8:20 actually weirdly enough you find the second highest concentration of Trina’s Lillies and her sword in Caelid at the Forsaken Ruins. The flowers are everywhere so it didn’t stand out, but the sword’s placement on top of that is interesting. There’s also a ton of them in Liurnia. Miquella’s Lillie’s are also primarily in Caelid and Liurna. Someone also pointed out recently the top and bottom ends of Radahn’s bow looks eerily similar to lillies, as does some of the iconography on his cape. It’s harder to tell with these though since there are good arguments in favor of them being lions’ tails. There’s a bunch of things that add up retroactively but I think the problem is the base game only hints at it with audio and visual queues. The subtlety resulted in the ending feeling like a twist instead of a potential outcome.
In fairness, Miquella realives them, so that doesn't matter. No, the problem with Godwyn is he's actually still able to think and act, to some degree, and they opted to basically just leave that as a glorified easter egg.
I think you nailed it in the head when you mentioned “setup and payoff” and how they seemingly ignored such a simple & important storytelling device in the DLC. There was some things that were set up in the base game that didn’t pay off in the DLC. At the same time, there were things that were never set up coming out of nowhere when the DLC dropped. I used to love and speculate about the lore in ER, but because I was so disappointed with the DLC lore inconsistencies and its ending, I started to not care about the story. (Why be invested in the world of Elden Ring if the lore and story do not matter all that much?) I still enjoyed the DLC to an extent, but I think it’s a step down compared to the base game. Great video, btw.
So I believe the Amber Starlight and Ranni’s questline sheds some light on Radahn and the nature of fate and mind control in the world of Elden Ring. The Amber Draught that is concocted with Starlight from a shrine to Miquella fails to alter the fate of Ranni’s doll form. It seems that the “fate that is written in the stars” is something that Carian sorcery is able to harness. Selivus’ efforts to subjugate Ranni are an interesting parallel to Miquella’s own attempts to charm Radahn. The Lucidity spell and the focus stat are examples of how a sorcerer can abate forms of mental control so it can be reasonably assumed that the Carian family, which has a divine connection to the stars, also has a capacity to resist things that could alter their fate. Killing Radahn and being present when his soul is revived could then be a way to weaken him enough for Miquella’s charm to fully function.
Since we never see Radahn agree to the vow i think he never vowed to be Miquella's champion. It was all one sided on Miquella's part; which makes sense why he sent Malenia after him.
@@michaelr5361 Radahn had no part to play in the vow. Radahn made a a promise, not a vow. The one who made the vow is miquella and some other third party that wasn't mentioned. Which blows the whole "radahn was mind controlled," out the window, because if it were that easy, why would Miquella need to give something in return for Radahn's promise, aka the vow? Just force him into the promise with no strings attached, no need to make a vow.
45 seconds in, and you showed the lion statue with horns, and I can't help but feel like that perfectly illustrates the promised consort - Radahn the Lion and Mohg the horned Omen becoming one. It would have been really cool to see more of Mohg coming through in the final boss, kind of like when Goku and Vegeta fuse and you get parts of both characters.
Radahn is a bad choice no matter what. And for those that say Godwyn couldn't be the final boss for lore reasons, ANYTHING can happen in these games! It's a fantasy world.
If anything can happen just because muh fantasy then Radahn isn't a bad choice no matter what because ANYTHING can happen in these games It's a fantasy world. You debunk yourself. Godwyns soul was completely destroyed his body is in the game as death root. People thinking Godwyn should be in the DLC are just unintelligent period.
Exactly. Like everyone keeps saying "no don't use Godwyn! His story is complete. He's dead. Nothing to expand upon." So was Radahn. LIke I'm sorry, I want to explore more of Godwyn. What was his personality? Weaponry? Relationship? Instead of him just being "The Dead Guy." Like Godwyn at least makes sense with the base game cause we were shown that Miquella wanted to save Godwyn using the Eclipse in the base game. Having it be Radahn where there is absolutely 0 connection with each other in the base game would make just as much sense if Miquella chose Rykard lol. Also, the DLC keeps gaslighting us like, oh yeah Miquella and Radahn have a close relationship the whole time! They made a vow and are in love with each other. Uh that was not established at all in the base game.
Honestly the dlc messed up the entire established timeline and created this whole Miquella and Radahn thing out of nothing. Miquella suddenly doesn’t care about his dear sister. Suddenly he didn’t really need to cocoon himself up, he didn’t really care for his Haligtree. All of a sudden he’s determined to become a god and Radahn was to be his consort the whole time. “No one saw it coming.” How does he abandon his body (the one we touch to go to the dlc) to go to the Land of Shadow and still manage to leave “his flesh” behind btw? Whose body is the one in the cocoon then? No one will ever know lol Also, out of the blue my guy Miquella isn’t even interested in his Eclipse Ritual anymore; he doesn’t care about Godwyn who - I might add - is the only character who he ever called “lord brother.” “As a god he can cure his sister” not even Marika could do that and he can because reasons? “But Malenia awaited his return, ‘his promise’ she says” again: how does godhood cure her? Divine needles? He already made them. We can even use one! And please, stop with the Velka character type. People are saying the craziest things about the Gloam Eyed Queen. Just show her lol Velka’s rapier = Blackflame Greatsword: a goddess is so badass she wanted to kill gods, she gets unalived and all that remains are scraps of lore. What’s up with this trope, Miyazaki? Fromsoftware can make mistakes and this is one of them, no issues about it but still. If the dlc needed more time to conclude and finish, then take more time. It’s fine! You’ve been doing this since DS1: you start a project, you run out of time, you ship the game anyway. As if the Mountaintops of the Giants was to be this plain and empty bc lore. As if you didn’t want to let players fight the Elden Beast with Torrent bc lore, nah, you simply didn’t have the time to implement it as a feature. And what do you know, you fixed it! Fix your game, it’s fine, everyone makes mistakes lol
Great comment. Everyone acts like either FromSoft never makes mistakes and craft everything beautifully, or they're losing their minds and the DLC ruined the whole game. It's fine to mess up things as long as you learn from them (and in case they can be fixed, then fix them). No biggie.
He did care about the Haligtree, though. The only reason he isn't there right now is because he was kidnapped. I know there's a theory that he got himself abducted on purpose, but there's no real evidence of this. Plus, it doesn't make sense for all the reasons you outlined. Why do you think he doesn't care about Malenia? He doesn't mention her at all except to praise her deeds.
I kind of get your points, and even agree to some extent, but I think this whole "Miquella suddenly didn't care about anything" came out of nowhere and there's not real base for that argument. He wanting to become a God doesn't mean that he forgot about Malenia or the Haligtree. I don't know how anyone came to that conclusion. If anything, we will never truly know what was he going to do since he died 5 minutes after achieving godhood. What we know is that he couldn't cure Malenia with the tools he had at the moment. Malenia's rot was halted with the needles, but that wasn't enough to save her in the long run or even to avoid the spreading of rot through the Haligtree, which is why I think his metamorphosis plan wasn't going to work either. What was left for him to do? Probably his last resort was to follow the path of the Empyrean a try to become a god through the only method that was proven to work: the divine gate. From Malenia's dialogue, I think it's possible to infer that Miquella gave her some parting words before he left the Haligtree, promising to reunite with her after he achieved Godhood. Now, you think because Marika or the GO couldn't do anything to cure Malenia, it means that Miquella couldn't do it either, but the thing is that he actually invented something that helped Malenia more than anything: the unalloyed gold, and he created it without being a god and with the limitations imposed by his own curse. How much wouldn't he be able to do with the full power of godhood, free from his curse? Or a least that's how I think he reasoned his plan.
To be fair, doesn't the game say that the eclipse plan FAILED? But then again a dlc where Miquella tries again would have been cool as hell and would have fleshed out two underdeveloped characters at once and would have had a sick eclipse backdrop that would have also served as a nice nod to Ds3, although again, the game makes it pretty clear Godwyn's soul was gone. And I'm not sure how you can really "revive" his BODY since it's sort of integrated into the lands between itself. Dlc suffers enough from weird transformations anyway(miquella in the real world vs shadow realm). If from used Godwyn in some way, I bet we would have got people complaining about how it contradicts what was set up in the base game and how using his body/soul makes zero sense and begs the question on why Ranni couldn't get her own body back. Elden ring lore was controversial even before the dlc launched after all with the likes of Godefroy and all that. Not saying they shouldn't have done this btw. Just trying to add a bit more nuance here. But I do agree this dlc needed more time in the oven. Hopefully they can give it more updates to add more context(cutscenes, updated lines and desriptions) despite them saying they won't make more dlcs. Best case scenario is that all of this ages like milk. I hate Velka characters too
I was expecting to fight Miquella in his full god form after Radahn as the actual last boss. Similarly to Elden Beast after Radagon. Was disappointed to find out that wasn’t the case.
I agreed with this for a while but have come around on the “ending.” The DLC is not meant to be the ending of the game and Godwyn has a specific ending already attached to the story of the main game. I dont think it would narratively make sense to include him in the story because of that. Also, Radahn really makes perfect sense when you consider his role as the new Godfrey (foreshadowed via his obsession with Godfrey despite being son of Radagon) in the holy trinity necessary to become a God via the gate of divinity. Read the secret rite scroll again and tell me who formed the original trinity with Marika…
I was perplexed by the decision for them to use Radahn. As, the game entirely spoke to us through item descriptions that Godwyn would have maybe been Miquella’s chosen consort. The Golden Epitaph, and all items involving castle sol, made it very clear that Miquella intended to revive and then possibly kill Godwyn outright to give his souls a proper rest. That he was obviously denied due to Ranni’s intrigue. My assumption was, as I believe some also assumed, we would be going to the place where Godwyn’s souls was sent, and somehow killing it there or capturing it to be used at his body under the capital, fusing them or whatever and then fighting whatever amalgamation he has become. I was fully ready for that to be a part of the DLC. I was just left… speechless… but not in a good way when I saw Radahn. I had assumed maybe Miquella would have brought back Godwyn. Radahn just seems… not it.
Godwyn would have made much more sense, and had actual buildup. Any perceived contradictions to the base games lore would be put down to FromSoft’s ambiguous storytelling. No one would be confused or upset. There would be no controversy. It would be thematically relevant. I don’t know why they did what they did, but it definitely “tarnished” my respect for the way they tell stories in their games.
Miquella's goal with Godwyn seemed to be curing the Death Blight, both to rescue those affected by it and to prevent others from being affected by it. Miquella wasn't necessarily hoping to have Godwyn as his consort, and people expected that Miquella was still trying to save the world by solving this. The problems, IMO, are the poor execution of the DLC's reveals with Miquella and a crucial mistranslation in Freyja's dialogue that makes it sound like Radahn's soul was killed.
Only item in castle sol that relates to Godwyn is the eclipse shotel. Everything else refers to the soulless demigod right outside Godwyn fans have stretched the lore to such ridiculous places and then get mad when it’s confirmed false
@@Kashi-qo8ik You should really watch some of Quelaag’s videos from before the DLC. Then you will understand what I am saying. I’m not going to argue or debate with you, nor will I insult you.
I think we should've got a better ending. I don't think that cut scene was really fitting for an ending. I think it would have been better for one of his memories at the cross or something. But to be our reward for fighting a boss that literally had to get adjusted, because its hit boxes were inherently broken and unfair. Is absolutely wild and mid
Ascsomeone who thinks people overhype Radahn because of his militaristic propaganda mionions’ dialogies, fighting him again was already an emotional letdown compared to the rest of the dlc. And some of my reasons is that 1. His reborn character design: you get the set up for a frankenstein monster, and instead get an abercrombie model; 2 his story is very simple and pretty basic, so much so that even his cut dialogue was just him introducing himself, which undermines te emotional depth of Miquella, Malenia and Marika for example, leading to a plain cool boss moment; 3 the stylistic contrast that his design has with everything else, in a Land os shadowns and desaturate colours and deep red/blues his shining ketchup and mustard armour was another punch in my eyes. Lat joke aside, I’m also bitter about this missed opportunity regarding Malenia and Romina’s lore, both tied to scarlet rot, and to a degree even Midra: all three are affected by outer gods to a monstrous degree and yet they are barely described despite Miquella creating a needle to seal then in their host, mesning he has extensively studied his sister whom he then just sends to die… for Radahn. I dunno, he felt very flat to me once i started digging down is character, and possible motivations for his eternal war lust.
I strongly suspect people are not understanding what has happened. The evidence is mounting that this isnt even radahn. It mostly likely a "mimic" using mogh as the base. With the condemning mogh's soul comment making further sense if we assume the souls in Elden ring are a set of memories of the individual, a reflection, and that image was overwritten by miquella and rewritten as the last memories of his of Radahn, erasing mogh. Also i suspect he had to use mogh since he forceably became miquella's consort.
Radahn would have felt better as an alternative final boss that requires a lot of foreknowledge to unlock. Like how Solaire usually ends up dead by default, but you can jump through several hoops to change his fate to a good ending. 15:48 And I also thought that jar bairn could have been used to accomplish that. What if the usual ending to the DLC involved Miquella resurrecting some long-dead hornsent hero to be his consort, in order to make amends with their people... ...but if you've given Jar Bairn the innards of Alexander and caused him to leave jarburg, you can meet him again in the shadow realm. And if you talk to him and follow his quest there, you inadvertently end up prompting him to arrive at the gate of divinity, and somehow meddle in whatever corpse ritual Miquella is pulling there, accidentally hijacking it with the flesh inside his body and causing Radahn to be resurrected instead. It'd certainly feel less like an asspull if the player had to go out of their way to make it happen.
First of all, great video! I especially appreciated the spoiler warning for other fromsoft games as I hope to play them at some point and have successfully avoided spoilers so far. Personally I think the DLC shows us that Miquella was a tragic hero, he had good intentions but things went south at some point in the shadow realm and he became a monster. To me it isn't unclear because they show that he stripped himself of love, and that he puts all his allies under his enchantment, even if they wish to serve him. This shows that Radahn's motivations have no bearing on what happens to him, Miquella takes his agency. I do agree that the ending memory is very out of place though, that memory should have had some sort of new info.
Thank you so much! I definitely recommend all of the Soulsbornekiroring games but I think Dark Souls 3 is the best one to start with since it plays the most like Elden Ring. And that read of Miquella being a tragic hero makes a lot of sense. (And things literally went south since he discarded St. Trina in the Cerulean Coast.)
I just want Radahn to speak like at all. I don't even think he grunts. I've seen people say that he's charmed and that's why he doesn't have a personality, but Mohg was charmed and he has a huge amount of personality.
He does grunt, like a lot, during the fight! I've seen this comment a few times and i just imagine you guys just don't have the sound on or something because i don't get it lol
Well reasoned gripes. I like the examples from other games. I barely read item descriptions, and I never watched lore videos back when I beat bloodborne and dark souls 3. But you're right about the way things were conveyed. Those games were more difficult to understand in some ways. They felt more vague. Maybe that's what makes the dlc so confusing. There's so much more said in Elden Ring, but not enough is answered. It doesn't come off as deliberate by the end. It's like why cut the Mesmer dialogue? It strikes me as an oversight. They couldn't figure out a way to reconcile their relationship so they didn't bother making one. Then it's like why are they even in this dlc together? Feels like too much dip on the chip. Drop miquella and have it be about Mesmer. 😂 Imagine finding miquella's pieces around only to reveal they once again failed. Stopped by Mesmer the true twink goat
finally someome who doesnt just go 'hur the dlc was perfect' and has some good narrative critique. ive BEEN saying that if youre gonna do the weird incestsquared twin princes callback, at least make it make sense. i was expecting or at least hoping for godwyn, or even messmer as miq's consort. so when radahn showed up it was just bizarre. and the way they try to pull off the callback is kinda lame.
Nobody says that. If anything it's community consensus that the lore is messed up/missed potential, etc. As we see in a lot of comment sections in videos of people either talking about the lore or making memes about it.
@neocores Why would something need to be defended if everyone liked it. I assume you meant praise. And just because some people defend the lore or the dlc as a whole or whatever, doesn't mean they think it was perfect. I sure as hell don't. If anything I see that sort of high caliber praise way more for past from dlcs like Ringed City and the Old Hunters by the community.
@@thesnatcher3616 okay? by 'defending' i mean from people who dare criticize it. not sure why you're taking it personally that i have a different experience of the community to you.
Great video and a well-deserved critique of a disappointing finale to the ER story. I would also like to add that I felt really let down when no one in the main game reacted to the event of the DLC. If you finish the DLC before the Haligtree and come to Gideon he is like 'Oh I wonder where Miquella is' and such. Mate, I just killed Miquella! GOD SLAIN! Have you got anything to say about that? No, not a single word. The DLC feels so disconnected from the base game it''s sad. The devs had 2 years to definitively conclude the story and the lore and connect the loose ends from the main game, but unfortunately didn't manage to accomplish that.
Great video as usual! I like that Fromsoft doesn't want to categorize the games characters as either good, evil or neutral. Not just the bosses, but even characters the player would likely characterize via bias. For example, the Loathsome Dung Eater is generally seen as bad by players but I love that I can also rationalize the hero in him. I agree that it's difficult not knowing Radahn's perspective on the vow, but I think that would lead to the categorizing of Miquella, so I understand why they didn't share it. Thanks again for all your great lore videos and congrats on the recent shout-out you received from Geoff!!!
Thank you so much! And getting that shout-out from Smough was a welcome surprise! I definitely appreciate how much depth FromSoft (usually) puts into its characters. I'm actually planning a video on the LOATHSOME DUNG EATER since he got some more context from the DLC.
The act so much mausoleum lore refers to them as slumbering Demigods or Lhutel awaiting the revival of her Demigod makes it feel like Godwyn was supposed to be the Promised Consort. Godwyn was shown as empathetic. They could've even expanded on Mohg where he wanted to revive Godwyn because he sympathized with Omen. Overall it feels botched
No it doesn't. What it feels like is a bunch of nerds don't understand the lore and then rage whine when their head cannon doesn't come to pass. Godwyn was shown as his soul being completely destroyed as with Rannis body. Completely destroyed by the Rune of Death means just that. DESTROYED ffs learn what definitions mean.
I could watch this religiously. That being said, we're going to see so many more video critiques of the DLC in about 6 more months, mark my words. It's like the 5 stages of Death at this point.
The end of the dlc made me so disappointed that I just stopped watching lore videos for a while, thinking like if all those mysteries and speculations lead only to nowhere or this, i'm just wasting my time
Same bro, it put such a bad taste in my mouth I just dropped the game for a while. I still like the game but I have no desire to replay the dlc like how I replayed the base game.
@@dvdivine1962 I agree, tarnished archaeologist has the power to hook me and the last thing I know, I've been lured into watching half an hour of mesopotamian history
Talented moder made a Melenia, the Promised Consort with custom animations, new skins, and music. We actually get to fight a fully restored Melenia the valkyrie.
The lack of connection between Messmer and Miquella maddens me. There are literally pieces of Miquella IN the Black Castle... and there's nothing significant connecting him and Messmer? Messmer could have been even more proof for Miquella that Marika was fundamentally cursed, the interactions between them literally write themselves...
This DLC proved to me that fromsoft themselves don't know the story of elden ring. I don't think they know what they're doing or trying to tell, and it's very clear that the game was too big for their narrative style.
My theory is that it was never supposed to be Radahn but someone high up shipped them together so hard they managed to bewitch others into making it canon. Also the words " re-used assets" probably helped a lot.
@@luckyowl6432 Are you referring to Consort Radahn as being the re-used asset? Bc he is completely different from the Starscourge in every significant way aside from lore
@@luckyowl6432 Miyazaki. He's gone on record stating Radahn is his favorite character in the game and wanted to use him again. Though I don't like you framing it as a shipping thing. Radahn and Miquella is made very clear to be the wrong thing and very disturbing, not a genuine ship of the two characters.
Hard disagree that PCR fits the lore. You really have to shoehorn him in, and it feels like a major retcon. It's incredible that they found a way to miss the landing so completely their best game yet. I think the most disappointing part is how the ending destroys the masterfully crafted character of Miquela. They were supposed to be playing 5D chess, but instead they just wanted to be a boss we already defeated. Miquela was somehow not smart enough to realize that throwing away all that made them who they are wasn't going to make the world better, and then it's just another power play like the other demigods. All that, and the boss fight itself isn't even fun to play.
I was so disappointed with Radahn being the final boss, I wanted something more centered around Miquella, maybe fighting him alone, but Miquella only ever talks about Radahn and hasn't much personality of his own. Doesn't help that we didn't meet Miquella prior to this final and only encounter, which makes him feel even more underdeveloped and disappointing. The trailer even "promised" the scene with Miquella lifting the veil and set expectations of interacting with him more that weren't fulfilled. Base game Miquella felt very different to this Miquella we got in the DLC and I''m not impressed. He makes me feel pretty much nothing, regardless of how you want to interpret him, he doesn't feel evil enough nor does he feel kind enough. "Show, don't tell" isn't really to be found, there is only tell about him from other characters "how kindly he is" or that "he is a monster" but so little show if at all. He just does his apathetic little speech and that's it.
but tha't like his thing, he doesn't care about asnyone (except maybe radanh, godwyn) and everyone is just apawn. remember everything we know about him is told by others giving their take, not the truth.
@@Sercroc He does care about the whole world in a way, why else is he talking about an age of compassion? But even when you see him as just a cold puppeteer, there is so little to him in this DLC (except other people talking about him) that it still doesn't work presentation wise. There is just so little there to have any reaction to it at all. Compare this to Ranni: We have so much dialogue with her, a whole involved questline etc but the only thing we get from a DLC centered around Miquella is his simp followers but not him.
My issue with the DLC is that I found Miquella's story very separate from Marika's story. It was almost like playing two different DLCs. The most we got were some dialogues with NPCs, and that's it. As for Radahn, I didn’t feel a lack of preparation; I was satisfied. I just interpreted that Radahn was there against his will, bewitched by Miquella. Otherwise, there would be no need to send Malenia to kill him. I just wanted more connection between the plots. And I also missed something about Melina. I wanted to feel like she was more than just a twinplay resource.
The only thing I can think of is that it was because they weren’t planning on doing a dlc originally. I just wished they could’ve patched some stuff in the base game to connect it to the dlc better
I saw someone else point this out elsewhere, and I thought it was a great point, but Radahn is a literal warmonger, an "endless war" befits him, right? What the hell kind of match would thay be for an "age of compassion"? It's in diametric opposition to compassion. Thematically just a complete fucking mess. And thats only one of many of my issues with this DLC and especially its ending. I'm very glad you brought up comparisons to the previous DLCs. Beyond the thematic comparisons you brought up, at the most basic "cool game" level, the final boss of the final DLC being ...a remix of a boss you already fought is a massive letdown. Imagine if instead of Gael you had to fighr Aldrich Prime, or if instead of Orphan of Kos you fought The One Re-Reborn. It's just plain lazy and unrewarding. Ending on such a disappointment really depresses me because I love the world of Elden Ring and would've loved to see it go out on a memorable high note. We aren't getting anything else from Elden Ring, and Im left with sour regret.
Gaius actually gives great insight with his armor set description. Because by establishing the connections between Messmer, Gaius, and Radahn as close brothers means they were all against the Hornsent. The same Hornsent who are now protecting Miquella. Why did Miquella abandon Melania? Because both her and Radahn learned from the Dancing Swordsman which was the same style used to rage war. Which is why Melania and Radahn is much more interesting fight because they have the same swordplay ideology but fueled by different motives and elements. Back to my original point. Messmer campaign was to rage war on all the Hornsent because of their history with Marikas people. Radahn and Gaius were very close to Messmer so it's very reasonable to deduce after the Shattering it wasn't a Free for All but a strategic civil war amongst the demigods started by Miquella. How do I know it was Miquella? Because Miquella abandoned the Order, Radogan, and Marika long before the shattering. When Miquella hated his own fathe/mother Marika broke. She resented her godhood because now her own children hate her. How miserable life must be to be as a hated god...? Hence the Shattering. She couldn't fix Melania and have Miquella forgive her. Miquella even couldn't forgive her for avenging her own people and then went on to become their new savior. That's the story of Elden Ring. This is about what it's like to become "Abandoned God". "Do you think God stays in heaven because he to is afraid of what he has created?" Self Hatred is a huge theme in Elden Ring.
U brought up a lot of really great points man. I thought the dlc was awesome overall, but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t want a little bit more buildup towards the end. If Miquella was going to turn out to be an antagonist, I think a lot of us thought it would be through bringing back Godywn since there’s just a lot more about all that in the base game if u know where to look rather than his relationship with Radahn, so the shock value of his reveal ends up feeling like “did I miss something..?” at first even if u did piece together that he was coming back through Freyja and Ansbach’s sidequests. I think once the missing pieces of it all set in and u see how the things unanswered like why Malenia was fighting Radahn fit together, it definitely becomes a lot better overall.
There is a novels worth of lore that George RR Martin wrote for this game's creation pertaining to Miquella and all of these other Gods and their motivations that we will almost certainly never see and that just cements the narrative disappointment of this dlc for me. I remember someone actually spoiled "young Radahn" as a boss in this dlc for me at work and I was actually quite excited bc I assumed that he was gonna be the hidden, optional boss and I was so shook when I figured out he was actually the last mainline boss of the dlc
GRRM wrote the backstory. So the story in the game and all the side quests is from/miyazaki. I think honestly that might have been the issue, having the backstory written by GRRM and the current story by M creates so much dissonance. GRRM is so good at writing “B” plots who have fully fleshed arcs, you can feel that with all the schemes so many of the demi gods are pulling only for Miyazaki to cut them all short. In game you can just cut out Mt Gelmir and Rykard and nothing changes while the lore hints at his involvement with Ranni.
Radahn should have had lines during the fight. That would have been enough but no, the game needed another voiceless boss that theoretically could talk if they wanted to
11:53 Miquella basically glimpse beyond the veil and understood that the only thing that makes someone a God is the fact that everyone believes that he is, the boss fight is his attempt at displaying a triumphant Godlike power. it is boisterous, stereotypically divine, overwhelming, and full of itself he carries himself like a God in the hopes that this will make him a God. The same idea is present in the base game, for instance, the haligtree fails to become powerful because it was only watered by the blood of one person, an immortal person who did not care about losing blood. The erdtree has power because so many people have fought in its name, they have given the tree power. Consider the gate of divinity, it is literally just a huge pile of skulls. It is a bunch of dead people that signify some sort of threshold that Marika crosses to display her power. This is why, even though Miquella and radan were at the gate before you, they cannot meaningfully pass through it in the same way that their mother did, because they did not gather the skulls themselves, no one witnessed this action, so it will not have power over anyone else.
Instances of this misunderstanding of pragmatic political power are present in the base game as well, radagon is a golden order fundamentalist, and his arrogant son spits it back in his face in the unalloyed form. the original alloy of the crucible was a synergy of raw fighting skill and compassionate rule of law, without either aspect, the other would fail, we see this with the implementation of serrosh on Godfrey’s back. Miquella had never lived in a world where order had to be fought hard to maintain, so he did not understand. It is similar to the real world example of fictionalized aristocrats who look at the mob that is there to behead them and offer them cake.
You said pretty much everything I think. And yes, I wasn't expecting Godwyn's either, even witht he DLC screaming for Godwyn in all it's death themes. Tbh, I don't even see Godwyn defying the status quo of the order of his mother to the point of making such a vow with Miquella and, yes, he could be charmed, but it goes against a vow like Marika and Godfrey did for example - and the whole boss is meant to "honor" Godfrey with his fanboy, Radahn. And not expecting Godwyn, I surely wasn't expecting Radahn. I just didn't want to see that guy AGAIN at all with an excuse made out of thin air. And, honestly, every time someone tries to justify it with some previous connection, it all feels like looking for patterns in randomness.
I personally think that "the vow" is potentially referencing the dialog Melina gives you at the battlefield grace near Leyndell. How Marika wanted her children to become lords or gods and not amount to sacrifices. The whole "promised consort" stuff is more open ended, tho.
I do find it weird that so many players hung on to Godwyn as an active entity in the game. Godwyn's personal story is already over by the time the game starts, always has been. As far as connections between Radahn and Miquella in the base game, take a closer look at Radahn's gear. He has a gold-threaded Haligtree emblem on his cape, and the ornaments on the ends of his bow are shaped exactly like a Miquella's Lily. I do agree with you that the mystery of who is Miquella's consort should have been more upfront, as a leading question within the main game.
I don't think that's a Haligtree emblem on Radahn's cape. Spiral designs are present on the Tree Sentinels' capes, Leyndell's war banners, Godrick's cloak he removes in his cutscene, etc. The ornaments at the ends of the Lion Greatbow resemble lion manes and tails in Elden Ring's heraldry, both in association with the golden lineage and with the depictions on the Banished Knight Shield and banners.
Re: Godwyn; he's just the latest iteration of what happens with every Souls game. There's always one character that the fandom elevates to massive importance in their lore theories that never gets realized in the actual game. In the Dark Souls games, Velka only appears in item descriptions, yet some fans' lore theories basically elevate her to the central character in the lore. (Check some of the lore videos that came out prior to DS3's DLC release; a segment of the fandom was absolutely convinced that what turned out to be the Ringed City was going to take place in Londor and go heavily into "finally explaining" all of Velka's lore.) Ditto Oedon for Bloodborne. Honestly, the strangest thing about Godwyn being the character that gets this treatment in Elden Ring is that Godwyn actually had a genuine presence in the game given the importance of his death in the Night of Black Knives as well as having the Age of the Duskborn ending quest centered around his role as Prince of Death.
I’m pretty neutral on the matter. I like that radhan got to have a rematch without the madness of slowly decaying but I agree it should have been done better. I’m hoping that this is a sign of more to come because if this wasn’t even hinted at in the base game imagine what other relationships are happening behind the scenes
The lore of Miquella in the dlc, especially in the end felt really awkward and unnatural in a way that pulled me out of all the immersive storytelling, characters and world building for me. I can no longer see Miquella the same way knowing he just a character butchered by the writer
I love that idea! From a technical and scripting standpoint, I could see how it could be difficult to have characters in the base game react to the DLC. But FromSoft could have easily gotten around this by giving us a wholly new character in the Land of Shadow: Miriel's twin Muriel. They could have even made him look like an Orthodox Patriarch as a counterpart to the Turtle Pope.
@@JabronyJoenZ you just reminded me how frustrated I was that Gideon and Melina have literally fucking nothing to say about anything that happens in the dlc. I get it might be hard because you would have to call the actors back in, maybe it wasn't even possible to do so, maybe the actors wouldn't agree to (although they had 2 years at least, so...) It just feels so immersion breaking and weird. Gideon tells us all about the demigods, and is searching for the great runes, but he has NOTHING to say about the land of shadow, the scadutree, Messmer, or Miquella becoming a literal god? It really cements the dlc having zero connection to the base game, it feels like it doesn't even exist when you're in the base game. I would have loved to hear him explain some stuff to me I guess the argument would be that Gideon is "canonically" supposed to be dead at that point, and Melina dead or gone. It just feels strange
Lots of good points made on the video- and this is coming form someone who got happy when they said Radahn was returning because his fight was fun as hell- but it was DEFINITELY a huge letdown when they didn't fully explain why he wanted Radahn over his own twin sister as his consort. Like, Miquella just fucking ABANDONED Malenia at the Haligtree??? And she had been waiting for YEARS it seemed, for Miquella to return to the Haligtree. Absolutely made ZERO sense to me, lore-wise. Mogh made some sense, considering he had that connection in the base game, but Malenia or Godwyn not being pushed? PFFFT! And yeah, hated that last cutscene- like, yes, I already knew you wanted your brother- BUT WHY???
What I kind of wish we had gotten for the dlc: -Prime Radhan as the Boss right before Enir Ilim -Godwyn is Miquella's consort (I know this is just me with wishful thinking, but I am sad we didn't get more of him) -alternatively you could easily have had Radahn protecting St Trina, or protecting Miquella's Great Rune) -the 'Soulless demigods' could have been a lot of the other bosses (some of the other main bosses seemed so... random??) -maybe Marika actually speaking for herself? for once? (that memory mechanic could have been better used in the Shaman Village) -If not Godwyn, Malenia, unafflicted, in her prime as our final boss (easily could have still done an Omen Malenia) I am honestly one of the people that think yes, there is a decently likelihood that Radahn agreed to the vow: He gets to basically live out his Godfrey fanboy dreams I mean come on. All while protecting a god? Like his idol? Whether you believe there was anything more to that relationship aside from both parties wanting a better world I feel like Radahn would be willing to agree. Especially on the basis that it is never specified (and idk why people don't think about this) that there is a need for more demigod children. Like if you are trying to break this cycle why would you do something to possibly continue adding more gods/contenders for godhood to the world? It really feels to me like people are applying to 'Old Order' logic to the 'New Order' that Miquella wants to create. That said, I also DON'T think you need Radahn as Miquella's consort for this either. Like that is what they did but I don't think it was needed. Miquella piloting Godwyn's creepy body like a puppet would have been just as impactful I feel like and would also parallel the idea that no matter how hard Miquella is trying to break the cycle he is falling into the habits of the system that created him to be a replacement for Marika. Also I do love the fight with Fortissax, especially since it highlights that relationship and how there may(?) have been dragon blood in Godwyn's line (see Godricks beginning boss dialogue). But also thank you for the Fia's Only Fans line XD. I also was annoyed with that fight. I feel like they could have taken that out and just... had it been Fortissax.
It’s funny I got so much crap from the lore community on Reddit when this dlc first dropped because I beat it a few days after its release, and thought it was so lackluster lore wise and felt so disconnected, they downvoted me to oblivion 😂 but now everyone is not okay with how it was handled compared to past dlcs
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I get the vibe that the DLC is more aout Marikas story than it was Miquella.
Miquellas antics felt more like a sidequest running parallel to us learning more about Marikas origin story.
From took inspiration in how GRR Martin writes his stories, and haven't included an ending
“And who has a better story than Promised Consort Radahn?”
The game ends with the Elden Beast. Like Dark Souls ended with Gwyn. Grow up.
The ending is the end of the base game
@@garrulousgoldmask Read the books. Bran is the key to A Song of Ice and Fire.
Age of Order bruv!
The biggest letdown was that miquella didn't turn out to be a moth. He is in a cocoon, he has budding bug wings when mohg is stealing him. WTF? I wanted to fight a miquella mothman. Sucks.
Bugquella gang rise up
Moth, spams holy spears, dream motivs, mind control, has a silent protector, oh wait
@@akechijubeimitsuhide Biggest lore reveal: Radahn is Hollow Knight
Original lore was for Miquella to absorb Malenia, Romina was originally one phase of the final boss
@@MHrrs78 mothman and merman double fight
The ending cutscene pissed me off so much, it's literally so useless lmaooo
I completely agree with your take; I think the devs focused too much on the Mohg twist and did everything to narritively prove his innocense and thus forgot to properly expand on the rest. I like From's vague storytelling most of the time, but sometimes you just gotta admit it's not the best way to tell a good story.
I think the idea that they focused on mohg innocence is stupid. He is at best throw away. What people focused on too much is godwyn.
I don't think Mohg was innocent of kidnapping Miquella, his pattern with the war surgeons and the ghost demanding Miquella's return ASAP in the Consecrated Snowfield indicate that the abduction was never Miquella's plan. However, I do agree that the ending cutscene sucked and only told us all of the things we already knew. There was no given answer to the vow, or set up as to why a memory would hover there.
@@nightscout9979 Ansbach straight up said he challenged Miquella, Leda said he "managed to cleave him open". That's not what you do to cocoon with an unresponsive guy in it. The ghost in the CS seems more angry that Mohg is an omen than Miquella's kidnapping lol
This is a minor thing and I see how it may not convince people, but the way Malenia (and Haligtree soldier ashes) speaks of Miquella's *return* kinda implies that he went at his own will. Like they were waiting for him to get something done ya know?
From a meta-narrative standpoint, I really feel like the story tries its best to convey Mohg's innocence, especially through Ansbach's character who's essentially Mohg's representative (he's kind, rational, honorable, a reliable source etc.) As a writer that's how I'd do it.
@@janogabor7697 So much of Godwyn was alluded to being relevant before and after the DLC so....
@@kennyg3118 Those allusions is basically "oh godwyn is like dead dead, like no turning it back, the world is fucked dead" people were just really wanting a bossfight so they took it as a maybe there is more. He is a cancer on the world.
The only relevance he has is to hammer home that the default ending (choosing to be Elden lord) would solve nothing because Godwyn is still a thing and only the more radical endings matter
I think presentation was the bigger problem. It's very odd that Radahn has such a nice-looking new body considering it was cobbled together from the corpse of Mohg. We know from the crosses that Miquella abandoned not just his flesh, but aspects of his personality and emotional range that he viewed as inhibitions, including his love and his fear and doubt. So what does he need with this clean, attractive consort? Why not make Radahn/Mohg more monstrous, and invoke more features from each of them? This would make clearer that Radahn's and Mohg's shared fate is a tragedy concocted by a newly risen god who's ruined his own ability to recognize the horror he's created. I did the NPC quests so I knew we were getting a Radahn fight in some form, but my reaction would have been better if i were shocked by the contrast between Miquella's golden majesty and the disgust and horror invoked by a monstrous "consort"
@@joshk494 nice! That would of been way cooler
My way of thinking of it is that giving him a more restored body allowed Radahn to be more complicent before getting ultimately charmed in second phased
The resurrected Radahn isn't monstrous because his fate isn't supposed to be tragic. Miquella fulfilled his promise and Radahn is reborn as a lord, poised to conquer the Lands Between just like his hero, Godfrey. His appearance and the music that plays during his fight is bright and triumphant for a reason. The only tragedy here is literally just a headcanon.
@@blackeddeath I know what they were going for but clearly it didn't play well with people. I'm offering an alternative presentation that I think would have turned an unearned plot twist into something more substantial. Maybe Radahn THOUGHT he might be getting a new life of unending war and glory, only to be returned as a freak of nature bound to frightening new god.
They should have gone more Bloodborne and less ASOIAF here
When they originally announced that killing Radahn is a requirement to enter the DLC i suspected that it had something to do with him controlling the stars (and we know the stars control fate itself).
My assumption was that Miquella's path to godhood was halted by Radahn and Malenia fought him for that very reason.
I’m pretty sure most of us assumed it was something like that. Definitely wasn’t expecting the route they took at all.
Was very disappointed
Radahn halting the stars only affected the fates of the Carian royal family like Ranni, it doesn't apply to everyone else in the Lands Between
I’m quite certain that the Eclipse was originally going to be a major plot point in the DLC, and this is why I think we would have needed to kill Radahn to enter the DLC
@@jobbersupreme8720 No, it affects everyone, this is confirmed by the amber starlight and the whole ymir questline in the DLC
@@jobbersupreme8720 The Astrologer class' gear notes that "fate" is no longer in the stars, so Radahn's seal likely affects everyone, not just his family.
So I've been really conflicted about the ending of the dlc like everyone, but most of the videos I've watched have been really unsatisfying, but this video solidifies why you're one of my favourite lore hunters. The problem with ER lore isn't so much that they bait and switched godwyn (I personally think godwyns storyline is complete: boys dead, nothings bringing him back, destined death is dead forever), but that the lore has always been the first thing cut or sacrificed for deadlines. We saw this with all the cut NPCs and storylines in the base game (Kale and the mimic tear are the two I still can't work out why they cut). From know that most of their audience don't care about lore, and the prioritisation of everything else makes sense...but as a lore addict, getting everything unravelled to find that there wasnt actually a big world ending secret at the heart is disappointing.
I'm really glad the video resonated with you! Making the video was cathartic for me since unlike a lot of critics, I actually do think Radahn being Miquella's consort could work. But that storyline was so underdeveloped, which felt particularly odd since the DLC spent almost 2 1/2 years in development. And like you said, it felt super disappointing to see that there wasn't any bombshell lore revelation In Miquella's final cut scene. Plus, since the Radahn elements were so undercooked, it also lacked the emotional impact of the endings for The Ringed City and The Old Hunters.
And yeah, I'm still baffled by FromSoft dropping the Mimic Tear and Kale quests. Especially the latter! My (Elden) Lord, his voice acting was phenomenal.
(Before the DLC came out, I was thinking that maybe Kale's quest was cut because they wanted to minimize the lore for the Frenzied Flame. But then the DLC added Midra and the new lore morsel that he was just one of many failed Lords of Frenzied Flame...)
And thank you so much for your support and your praise!!
Maybe from software cut content so that we could get a better player experience? Like they prioritised the player rather than their ego unlike some other triple A companies lol
Love your work
@@garrulousgoldmask I am in the same boat mostly, totally underwhelmed and confused by Radahn, but with some lore videos and some reddit posts I can see that it may make sense.
Someone pointed out that Radahn's bow has Miquella lillies on the end. Other things pointed out, are the crucible knight and crucible things at the redmane castle hinting at connection to hornsent/shadowlands, and there are misbegotten, trolls, pumpkin head, and lion guards. Not too many places are mixed bags like this, but Haligtree is.
there is one single Miquellas lily there too.
We can find also an arteria leaf here as well.
Some other connections are Sellia (Radahn) and Ordina (Miquella statues and entrance to Haligtree) having the same architecture. We see that there are many black knife assassins here. and we see that most of miquealla's lillies on the map are around Ranni, Mt Gelmir, and Caelid. I think he had something to do with night of black knives, probably to become a God, but also didn't want his brother Godwyn to end like that. I think there is some hints showing that Miquella needs Radahn as his consort in order to make all his goals come true. He needs this guy who can use gravity to control stars to make the eclipse happen.
We have battle mage Hugues who came from Sellia, and we have multiple battlemages in the Haligtree. The descriptions of battle mages are very similar to Radahn's love for battle.
Haligtree is the only location of the Giant Oracle Envoy, who heralds in a new god. Hinting at Miquella being a god beforehand. We have the prattling Pate "My Beloved" here, might be Radahn it refers to.
I don't know if I am stretching, but I think there are some little hints.
I personally believe Kale's questline was cut because Hyetta's questline made it redundant. They both illustrated the same themes and both led you to the same final destination. I understand why people are disappointed that Kale missed out on all that character development (the cut lines really do resonate), but I think it was ultimately the right call on From's part. I also think it's a misconception that From cuts lore because of deadlines, or because they don't think people care. Don't forget, their approach to lore is minimalist by design, so I believe they cut anything they don't consider crucially important, even if it's finished/usable content.
When I finished Fromsoft's earlier games, I felt the same sense of disappointment as you. I have learned over time that the best way to appreciate these stories is to embrace their ambiguity, and simply enjoy the sense of mystery and wonder for what it is. That's where the satisfaction lies.
@@launcelotdulake8075 Interesting perspective and I agree about growing to love the ambiguity. I think the lore ambiguity makes replay with new builds even more fun.
One thing I'm interested in hearing more about and that is like a worm eating my brain, and maybe there is a good video I missed on it, is Godwyn's name. Is he the only child of Marika who's name doesn't start with M? If so, why? There's something there that, I personally, haven't found explored much. I know his Dad starts with G but typically the name starts with the first letter of the God parents name. Also, what was the Gloam Eyed Queens actual real name? Names are very important so there has to be an interesting reason Godwyn starts with G and the GEQ's name is never revealed. 🤔
I consistently commented that the dlc story is very lacking and having to fight radhan again as the final boss is kinda lazy, people called me a hater etc, finally someone have the same opinion
There are a lot of us, don't worry.
Trust me. I’ve been of that opinion since finishing the DLC like 3 days after release.
@@TREVORVADER i finished it around a week after release, and constantly thinking to myself wow, it would be so much better if they actually continue the story of Godwyn the prince of death as final boss but instead we got reskin Radhan and people making up lore to cover the lazy writing, it's frustrating honestly, other fromsoft DLC is literally the crown jewels, this prove literally bigger doesn't means better.
@@Banbro88 it's insane that it took really long for someone to make a video about it and still I see plenty of hate comments for it 😂
Trust me I feel your pain 😂 hell I was getting death threats on Reddit from the lore community because I said the lore was lackluster
I’m still ANGRY AND MAD THAT MIQUELLA’S ENDING WAS CUT. WHAT IF I WANTED TO SIDE WITH HIM AND NOT RANNI??????????????????? 😭😭😭😭😭
There was a comment on r/eldenringloretalk that stuck with me: Loretubers don't want to poke too much into radahn and miquella, the literal climax of the DLC, bc it's such a sore topic and a source of so much frustration among lore enthusiasts. Critiquing it risks unveiling the mask of elden ring's "untouchable story" that loretubers such as vaatividya rely on to keep viewers engaged and watching. So seeing you be blunt about your opinion on Radahn was very cathartic, and for the record, yes I agree with you.
To be fair, I don't think some of the loretubers like Vaati or Misschalice act like ER has a perfect story (unless one of them said something to that effect that I haven't seen). I think they just try to make sense of the story with what they're given.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable for content creators to avoid controversial topics out of self-preservation. If anything that’s more indicative of a flaw in the game in question and/or its fanbase than a flaw in the creators.
It’s not that, they probably WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT but can’t find anything interesting to say. Because it’s a very boring straightforward plot that leaves no room for cool theories
@@fatman157 I don't know about now but Vaati absolutely sugar coated Dark Souls 2 before that game came out since he was working with Bandai.
Now DS2 is actually my favorite souls game but Vaati absolutely shilled back then
@@specialnewb9821What do you mean exactly? I'm pretty sure he didnt lie in his DS2 video's
My issue with the DLC is that none of it's plot was hinted at in the main game
Rahdan and malenia were presented as rivals, miquella was presented as a kind person who wanted to save the lands rather than force everyone to play nice
But the biggest issue is that the cinematic trailer set up questions that the DLC never bothered to answer
Well bewitching branches already hinted at Miquella’s true nature. So I fully expected him to not be what he seemed.
Yeah the marketing stuff felt way better than what we actually got. A lot more about Marika and the past and seemingly made it seem like Miquella would be more involved than he was.
Then there’s the thing with Miquella/Marika riding Torrent in the initial teaser that meant nothing as well as the cutscene from the gameplay trailer they removed
@@TREVORVADERbewitching branch is mistranslated, as usual. The malice implications don't exist in the Japanese.
Miquella being evil is established in the base game, Malenia calls him the most fearsome empyrean, she was very very afraid of him (probably before being bewitched into waiting for him forever at the Haligtree). Base game already was very clear in saying Miquella was a mysterious character who explored all possibilities of faith, science and gender (similar to the player and Marika, to some extent) but somehow became too dangerous. Mohg’s obsession with Miquella and Malenia’s comment made it hard to believe Miquella was actually a victim in all that conundrum. Malenia having been somehow tricked into fighting Radahn was a common theory given how weird it was, and the DLC explains it. It was just TOO simple and direct of an ending, very unlike From Software and very boring, the laziest ending you could build from what WAS established in the base game.
@@qwirkt yeah the way he was seemingly praised in everything was odd to me but after finding that bewitching branch lore I just knew that he wasn’t a good as everything made him out to be. The DLC delivering on that was one of the aspects I was happy with.
My issue was with the rest of the story that aside from the awesome NPCs, like Ansbach and Thiolier, the story was so lackluster. They had so much room to do so much cool stuff and they squandered it with a repeat boss (who’s more Godfrey than he is Radahn) and an abrupt, hollow ending. It’s just over with a memory showing us something we’d already heard multiple times before.
Fun fact for anyone who doesn’t know. Miquella’s model in the memory links back to the egg in Mogh’s boss room in the game files meaning it’s likely from an older version of stuff they scrapped and repurposed for the DLC.
@@killerking2346Taking people's will is pretty malevolent.
When i have a "huh?!" or "thats it?" moment in a Fromsoft game, somethings gone wrong. Miyazaki, you botched it this time
My guy be disappointed with greatness 😅
@@whatsnewbois9814 exactly. all previous dlc final bosses had clear emotional stakes.
@@Darfailmy guy be confusing serviceability with greatness
@BruTalc my dude also be unhappy with greatness 😞
To be fair I was like that when I killed slave knight Gael 😅
I just found it extra sad that this is quite possibly the last Elden Ring content we ever get. Miyazaki said something about focusing on smaller games from now on. Not that an Elden Ring sequel can't happen but for this to be the final chapter of new lore for the forseeable future just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I figured it would tie into the base game more than it does. Stuff about Godwyn, stuff about the Gloam Eyed Queen, stuff about the true nature of Melina etc. they didnt even touch on some of the biggest themes and mysteries from the base game. The DLC feels almost wholly disconnected. Other than the Shaman Village and the smallest lore about Marika's past, I gained very little insight from the DLC about the overall story. And Malenia couldnt have even been mentioned anywhere, yknow, the Blade of Miquella?
Also, it did a really bad job of explaining the new ideas it added as well. Like, it all felt even more vague and murky than the base game content already does. And that's saying something. I understand what the Scadutree was/did/meant even less than I understood exactly what the Erdtree was/did/meant, for example.
Godwyn had his soul destroyed, dude had a biblical level death. He isn't coming back. Also the DLC ties extremely well into the base game. We learned the history of Marika, the subjugation of the hornsent, the relationship of the drakes and ancient dragons, and Metyr was one of the biggest revelations to the overall plot of the game. We even found out that Melina is a child of Marika. In terms of flushing out the world pre-erd tree, I think the DLC did a pretty good job. No matter what, some things will always be left up to interpretation.
@@bigsundays9058I disagree that it ties in "extremely well" but to each their own. Like I said, in regards to answering mysteries from the base game we learned about Marika's origin.. and I admit small tidbits of lore scattered throughout about Placidusax, and the finger spiders. But in terms of things that were huge mysteries before the DLC was revealed? They're all still mysteries now after the DLC. Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't know what a horn sent was before literally entering the DLC. It felt disconnected.
When it comes to the nature of FromSoft story telling, there will always be questions unanswered, which is usually the beauty of the story telling. While there will be concrete statements and details. There is always room for the interpretation of the player. Something that updates over time with new discoveries through playthroughs or revisiting old details with a new frame of mind. The innate challenge with this kind of story telling is determining which questions you choose to answer in subsequent content. This because answering one question could create three more.
In terms of revelations related to the base game we got some important ones, to expand on the Drakes and the Ancient Dragons. We learned about the very nature of Dragon Communion and why Placidusax is injured as well as where the split in their species originated. We also learned about Metyr, which is the creation all the fingers are communicating with, who has abandoned Marika because she was also abandoned by the Greater Will.
The hornsent are just another name for the Omen. Before Marika's rise to power, the Hornsent were the ruling civilization. The Hornsent had a practice of flaying Marika's people and stuffing them into Jars. Marika's rise to godhood was built on a desire to exact revenge in the name of her people. This is why Shaman village is empty. When Marika eventually came to power, she used her new found power to purge the hornsent. When she created her age, many of the symbols of hornsent became reviled. Their very names and culture was overshadowed by their portrayal as the Omen or the cursed ones. Which explains why the Omen in the base game are treated as unworthy in the era of the erdtree. No one in the lands between knows about the hornsent because there history was intetionally hidden by Marika to make it seem as though they were always second class. This is atleast my interpretation
@bigsundays9058 nothing states his soul was destroyed, the only thing can completely destroy is frenzy flame and possibly messmers flame.
There's generally a pattern in the way the game tries to motivate us to fight its bosses -- and 90% of the time, the person you're forced to fight cannot possibly be reasoned with. Often due to insanity. Renalla? Insane. Malenia? Foggy mind and attacks on sight. Basegame Radahn? Insane & dying. Marika/Radagon? An empty zombie husk with no will. Midra? Self explanatory. You get the picture.
Out of all the game bosses, Miquella is the first of his status that is not deranged, had a clear mind and could potentially be reasoned with.
And one of the main issues I have with the DLC is how forced the Miquella fight feels, it feels like we only do it because Fromsoft wants us to. About two thirds through the game, Fromsoft start really trying to convince us that Miquella is evil - we are literally told what to think about Miquella by other NPCs, who keep saying that he's a monster because... He's supernaturally charming...? We never see him actually do anything horrible, or anything more evil than the rest of the cast. What he does is simply the reality of that world and the power structures within. And yet they try to paint him as the kind of evil we must get rid of...? Because what? Because we're the player and everything in the story has to serve the player...? It just feels cheap.
Seemingly, it was easy for them to write their stories about deranged half rotten monsters in positions of power, but the moment they try to do something different, something that involves a mentally healthy being, their writing just falls apart.
Also Miquella was completely right to dump St. Trina into that cesspit, because what the actual fuck is her point...??? The fate of the world and all those living in it is at stake and all you can think of is that Miquella might have to suffer? Being a ruler is always about making sacrifices, it's about being selfless, even if to an extent. So her entire point just looks extremely self centered. Yeah, let the world burn, but at least this one person won't suffer... This is the opposite of the kind of mindset you should have as a ruler.
And if St Trina is his compassionate half, then it seems she's only compassionate towards him and him alone.
Mentally healthy? He divests himself of his capacity to love. The moment you find that cross is the moment the way it all ends becomes clear.
We kill Miquella because a loveless god of compassion won't fix the world. Trina knows this, so Trina asks us to kill him.
While I agree with almost everything you say, there is one respect in which I disagree: That From Soft can't write a justification to fight a mentally healthy boss. There are actually several completely sane bosses in Soulsborne games, but I'm gonna focus on one game in particular: Sekiro. Quite a few of the bosses in that game are actually perfectly cognizant and could theoretically be reasoned with, but its impossible because they see Wolf as standing in the way of their goals, or they are honor-bound to fight him to the death.
If they'd had Miquella say something like "Your very existence is a threat to my new age" or "the Tarnished are all pawns of Marika and cannot be allowed to live" or even "I know you killed Malenia, so now I'mma kill you" then at least we would have a reason to fight him, but he just politely asks us to step aside and let him and his boytoy claim the Elden Ring and we don't even get an option to say "okay!"
The issue with Miquella is that, once more, he is a boss that cannot be reasoned with; he is explicitly stated to have removed his "doubts and vacillations", meaning he cannot even doubt his own plan, let alone listen to the player. As for Miquella's "evil", even Ansbach calls him "tender" while calling him a monster as well; Miquella's monstrous nature is the false kindness he genuinely wishes to force on people. You have two choices, to fight him or lose your own autonomy and the free choice of the world. Miquella is a tragic figure, one who wishes for the best but who will enslave the world to get what he sees as best. You
My biggest problem with this ending is that it makes the dlc feel without purpose, think of the artorias dlc and how it was about giving artorias a dignified end and create the very legend we've been hearing about all game, or the ringed city and from it a new gentle world can now be born, or the old hunters and how we break the curse by freeing the orphan and give doll and gehrman some peace, I get none of that from sote, the land and its people reserve no conclusion, the shadow tree remains a withered reminder of their abandonment, you don't get to climb the divine steps, you don't know how Messmer ties to any of this, you're not even given a choice to side with miquella
Another thing I wanna point out is the visual representation of the narrative and how jarring it feels, one of the reasons why radagon works so well is because he's a god of gold in a game all about the brilliance and strength of gold, sote is all about light and dark, life and death and yet the final boss uses gravity and blood magic alongside light for some reason?
Fantastic points! Like you said, FromSoft is usually so good at conveying an emotional response through its lore and its environments and it just feels completely squandered with Promised Consort Radahn.
And I really like your point about the visual representation. Now that you mention it, it does feel very bizarre that the final boss in a DLC called “Shadow of the Erdtree” that takes place underneath the Scadutree doesn't incorporate shadows/the dark at all.
@@garrulousgoldmask
Miyazaki takes a page from sam lake on the board meeting for the final boss "it's not a shadow it's a light"
I feel that the story of the DLC was the cycle of violence and how the Land of Shadow had no grand answers for people like Miquella, along with further devastation from Marika's scars and decisions. The only goal Marika ultimately seems to have is killing the Elden Beast, apparently from a sense of betrayal, and she notably does not care about what transpires to accomplish this, even if everyone is harmed in the process.
Now, with that said, the DLC's story could have emphasized and fleshed out this point *far better* than it did. More characters needed to remark on Miquella's desperation. A line or two needed to address the Cleansing Chamber and how it seemingly burns away Empyreans' "flaws", thus making Miquella's resulting state likely no better than Marika.
The memory after the final battle needed to address exactly how Miquella sought to make a gentler world in the past, so as to emphasize the tragedy of him choosing something utterly corrupt (constantly oppressing people with his powers) or something so impractically naive as to never work in the setting.
Also, unrelated to Miquella, the DLC needed to explain what in the world the Scadutree is. Does it automatically exist as a requirement to having the Erdtree? If so, why? Did Marika split her initial tree, be it created or inherited as a god, into separate trees, akin to, say, the nameless Namekian and Piccolo in Dragon Ball? Why is the Scadutree seemingly kicking its own butt by forcing sap out? Are the people of the Land of Shadow forcing the Scadutree to provide blessings via the power of sheer resentment? If so, why didn't the same happen to the Erdtree when it stopped providing regular blessings?
Some major things feel like they're lacking the standard level of explanation quality, or even implication quality, that they regularly have in From Software's works, even the main game of Elden Ring.
@@garrulousgoldmask Miquella brings a lot of light at least, and the Gate of Divinity speaks to figuratively dark deeds to give Miquella his power. Either way, I feel the Scadutree needed more answered about it in general.
@@nightscout9979 I have every question you mentioned and more. Everything about the Scadutree is way too vague, even by From standards. It's such a literally massive thing the visual design clearly wants you to stare at with awe and wonder, and nobody talks about it at all and it has nothing to do with the plot. You can't tell me that they didn't cut content to get SotE out the door, the conceptual dots don't even begin to come anywhere near lining up.
I keep thinking that the best outcome is always something new and unexpected for a final boss on a DLC, but if FS really wanted to lean on fanservice, they should have gone all out.
Not taking into account resources and time, it would have been cool if the eventual consort was a result of your actions. Maybe doing Frerya's quests ends up with Radahn being the Promised Consort and doing something like St. Trina's quest makes Malenia the Consort, tapping into the rivalry between the two again. All of this from a narrative POV of course.
Maybe doing neither gives you a regular, new and innovative boss. Giving you options with consequences based on what you want.
I definitely like the idea of Miquella's consort changing! Now that I think of it, I don't think FromSoft has really done something like that before for a boss fight so even if it failed, it would have gotten points for originality.
Claiming Radahn is fan service is actually nuts, considering everyone else on this post plus the video creater CLEARLY want it to be Godwyn.
@@bigsundays9058 if radahn wasn’t as popular as he was in the base game they most definitely wouldn’t have made him the final boss. They made him the final boss because the community was so vocal about fighting prime radahn. So yes this is fan service.
I think the problem isn't that Godwyn aint the final boss. The problem is that its Radahn.
My guess would have been Miquella alone or the Divine Beast God incarnation
Yeah while I can live without Godwyn, Radahn was a terrible choice.
I think we should’ve fought Miquella himself without anyone aiding him.
Or anything new.
He never said that Godwyn should have been the final boss, just that his story with Miquella was unfinished
Hell imagine if he brought in fucking Godrick instead out of nowhere. Even that would be better, at least I’d feel something
I feel like they were setting up something bigger with Miquella and St. Trina too, but looking back, they messed up somewhere.
Cutting St. Trina’s original quest was a big misstep and could’ve set her up properly and make her even sadder. The fact that they reused Gloam Knight/Gloam assets for Trina’s area doesn’t sit right with me.
Also baiting us with the cutscene and having us think we’ll side with Miquella is a horrible choice by the marketing team -_-
I’d also like to think the statue is Godwyn with the twins. I like that Miquella respected him.
Miquella having no ending makes me regret buying the DLC collectors edition, but I got a Messmer statue out of it. I guess.
Miquella deserved that Funko figure 😔 games never let us side with the feminine guys. Ugh.
"You fight Fia's onlyfans subscribers" lol. I agree 100%. GOATwyn should have been somewhere in the DLC. I mean they had to know people expected that...For Marika's sake the Night of the black knives is the biggest mystery in Elden Ring. Got nothing from that at all in the dlc.
The ending just needed more context,more explanations on why Miquella really wanted Radahn to be his lord other than”He was really strong&nice”.
Yeah, even an item noting Miquella's disappointment with the viciousness that war naturally entails, and that the Redmanes thus regularly do, would have been appreciated. Miquella seems to have resorted to a feeling he had when he was especially young and naive, and something should have addressed that he had to ignore his better judgment, and not just the broad aspect of him removing chunks of his soul.
Radan over Godwyn is such a tragedy. We have a character that's been deeply related to Miquella since the base game, with a mysterious eclipse(a very interesting symbol, especially in the context of Elden ring), the trigger point for the shattering, a mysterious conspiracy, a gazillion mysteries regarding death, they were best buds to boot ; and instead of exploring all of the interesting routes they could take with what was previously set up... we get Radan completely out of left field, with practically nothing added to the lore other than "Miquella made a promise with Radan".
regardless of whether it makes sense or not for Radan to be the consort it is much much less interesting to the point it's just confusing as a choice for a final boss.
The final boss of the DLC is Miquella. Are these Godwyn people really this unintelligent wtf lol. Godwyn is in the game he's in the entire game. Also Miquella has "deep" ties to Malenia and only Malenia/St. Trina. He is mentioned with Radahn, Godwyn, Malenia, St Trina. He tried to bring back Godwyn and failed for obvious reasons, you know since his soul is destroyed.
@@SM-nz9ff he didnt fail for "obvious reasons" otherwise he wouldnt try in the first place. We dont know why the eclipse failed, or what it even means in the first place.
And the fact that godwin is souless could have played a major roll into his "resurection".
I dont really see how miquella having ties to other characters is relevant to the conversation.
A pretty nothing comment to be insulting others peoples inteligence. Dunning-krueger, I guess.
It's a real shame how this all panned out in its execution. Upon revisiting the DLC, it's really quite brilliant how Radahn's reappearance brings full-circle all these different motifs seen throughout the DLC, such as the divine horned warrior, the dual swords that look like horns, the soul of a lion inhabiting a sculpted vessel, the union of god and lord into a single divine entity, et cetera. Not only do I now accept Radahn as the promised consort, but I understand that it really could not have been anyone BUT Radahn as the final boss.
However, the handling of this whole situation in terms of the plot was not ideal, and I don't know of a single person whose first impression of Radahn's reappearance was a good one. I could not possibly have better prepared myself for the lore of this DLC, and even I was utterly blindsided by the revelation, and not in a good way. It really came off like contrived fanfiction. I remember first watching the cutscene, and my only thought at the time was, "the internet is going to be arguing about this moment for years to come."
Like all Fromsoft stories, it makes much more sense on subsequent replays, but sadly, most people only play these games once. I just wish From could've handled this with a bit more finesse, and made a less jarring first impression of it.
@@launcelotdulake8075 The more I think about the Miquella/Radahn connection, the less sense it makes. You start thinking about what characters are doing in the base game and the shattering war and why, and I can’t understand any of it, some of it feels outright incoherent.
I would bet Radahn wouldn't be in the DLC at all if he wasn't so popular among the fanbase.
This comment should be pinned on top ffs
@@societyman6591That seems like a you problem tbh
@@ioverslept. Cool, can you explain why Malenia is just hanging out at the Haligtree when she knows exactly what Miquella's plan is, and why she isn't trying to kill Mohg when she knows Miquella's entire plan depends on Mohg being dead? Why is Miquella just hoping some random tarnished just happens to wander across the single most tucked away demigod in the game? Why are none of Miquella's followers present during the Radahn festival?
The cutaway at 12:52 was fkin perfect 😂
ARMSTRONG!
You brought up two major issues I myself had with the DLC:
1) It should have been Godwyn instead of Radahn. Miquella was shown in the base game to look up to Godwyn, and was trying multiple ways to help him. So going to the Land of Death to resurrect Godwyn's spirit into a consort would fit Miquella's motivations like a glove; he gets his big bro back, and he succeeds his mother as the new god. Two birds, one stone. Instead, we were robbed of a boss fight with possibly the strongest of the demigods.
2) The memory we find after beating the final boss is a once in a game lore opportunity. It's straight from Miquella's fading consciousness, so we know it's most likely going to be from the past we've never seen as a tarnished, and mostly likely trustworthy as a primary source. It could have shown us Miquella's naked motivations, or an interaction with another character that completely changes our perspective, or even filled in so many different parts of the lore that desperately need elaborating. Instead, we get shown nothing new. What a waste.
Speaking strictly from a lore perspective, I find the DLC a disappointment. It did a lot of good work with Marika, but it ignored a lot of things it probably shouldn't have, and even seemed to retcon some things.
If FromSoft didn't want to put in the work for Promised Consort Radahn, then I definitely agree that Godwyn would have been more satisfying on all levels.
And that's a great point about the memory being such a unique lore opportunity! In the base game, we had something a bit similar with Melina hearing the spoken echoes of Marika (though I do think some of them may have been spoken by Radagon). But even that is just secondhand and not a complete cutscene.
The closest I can think of to directly seeing a memory from another character's POV is in Bloodborne with Master Willem and Laurence. And that scene is absolutely iconic and reveals one of the most important events in the history of Yharnam.
Godwyn would’ve been the biggest retcon of fromsoft history
@Elden-Bear not even close there's multiple set ups for godwyn to come back that wouldn't mess with the base game, with how loose the magic system it would be easy.
@@dvdivine1962 the one argument i keep hearing by denials of godwyn’s eternal death
“just retcon it bruh!”
@Elden-Bear Retcon what? The eclipse and now the gate of divinity are perfect possibilities for Godwyns revival.
"But the eclipse failed" that's what the land of shadow is for, it's a separate physical place so the writers can justify anything there that doesn't mess with the base game.
"But his souls is dead" Only frenzy flame (messmers flame too?) is stated to completely destroy, so his soul can still be out there or whatever. Maybe in the spirit world or some other afterlife mentioned.
I don't even care for godwyn at this point, but to write off possibilities as if ER's world systems is so rigid and stable is ridiculous.
Especially considering the fact that this may be the last piece of ER content ever, the narrative problems extend to the entire game. There are things like the Nox and Marika, the Gloam-eyed queen (and Melina?), Roderika and spirit tuning, etc. that are just never brought up again. It really feels like things being pulled out of thin air rather than From's signature lore diving.
The DLC did no worldbuilding, it just told a very straightforward story. Aside from the Hornsent which are also very very straightforward. Maybe they developed the DLC parallel to the main game in some way and that is why they designed the DLC to not have anything too connected/relevant to the main game?
@@qwirkt??? Most of the dlc is deeply connected to the base game. What are y'all smoking
@@qwirkt the world building part that works in the DLC imo is the jar saints and what they imply about Marika. That part is super interesting and the only thing I think would've made it stronger is a tiny hint at how Radagon came to be. But otherwise it was interesting. That includes Messmer, the Fingers, Metyr, what's implied with the Greater Will, etc.
Miquella, Radahn and St. Trina (including the Putrescent Knight) is where the bulk of the weakness is. I saw someone speculate that there might've been two DLC at some point (Marika lore and Miquella story) and I get why it feels that way, because there is a sharp contrast in depth and complexity between the two elements.
- The Rise of Marika, Shaman Village
- How the Hornsent became the reviled Omen, and their persecution by Mesmer
- The nature of dragon communion, the war between drakes and ancient dragons
- Meeting a lord of frenzied flame other than the player
- Metyr and the Greater Will
@@qwirkt The hell are you talking about.
I completely agree. That last cutscene was a huge letdown.
Radahn is particularly strange even in the base game. He's the only demigod without an explicit goal, we know a lot about him, but it seems like he's deliberately written so we don't know what he wants. Everything is told to us secondhand vs characters like Malenia or Rykard where we hear it from their mouths. It's continued in the DLC...but as you and others have said, this really falls flat for a final boss because you don't want to be wondering why they're the final boss to begin with. Maybe there's some meta angles Radahn was chosen (even before the fab favorite status, he was Miyazaki's favorite boss, so the team probably had an idea he'd be a beloved character,) but it's still handled in a way that isn't ultimately clear enough to the player.
I love how cryptic From is normally about their stories, this is maybe the first time in any of their games I found their cards to the chest approach a little lacking.
Using the Mending Rune Of Death should've allowed for Godwyns resurrection. Allowing for Miquella to charm him into being his consort. But, this all being unbeknownst to us until we reach the fog gate. It would've been so rewarding. The base game does so much to get us to empathize with Godwyn. The night of the black knives is literally the opening scene. Blight is everywhere including Farum. Godwyn is the main reason for castle sol. So many quest lines intersect with Godwyn. 😫 Why couldn't I be a game developer?
Yeah... I don't really like how ambiguous everything is about Radahn and Miquella.
I don't like the nagging feeling of "am I the bad guy for fighting him? Or was I a hero for stopping a brainwashed dictatorship?"
Like.... For once, just tell me what my role was. Either way, I feel bad for Miquella.
Either reading makes him a tragic figure. A fallen hero who abandoned too much of himself. Thus, repeating the same mistakes his mother did.... Yay for generational trauma!
Or... a hero struck down by a greedy monster, who selfishly wanted to be the only one to sit upon the Elden Throne. (Or go to space with their new wife.)
Again, it would have been nice to just KNOW what it was I did.
A great measured analysis as always mate - good job
Thank you so much mate!
shout out to people who have the guts to complain about fromsoftware in this toxic fandom. gods strongest soliders
edit: help
@@melchiorsmokes I couldn't agree more with you my dear friend. Many people have given from software too much credit recently with elden ring and shadow of the erdtree, something they don't deserve in such a very positive manner or way, seeing how flawed the game is in so many areas.
I can get it from the newbies that just have gotten into this genre by elden ring and some of the veterans, but for the vast majority of us this is mostly a letdown in many ways.
Becoming a mainstream game really hurt this community that while it wasn't perfect before, it was more quiet and you could talk about the goodies and bads of the games in so many ways. Now you can't criticize this flawed game known as Elden ring in any form without somebody coming here and telling you :"lmao you are just a hater and need to git gud".
I still love elden ring despite these glaring flaws but it is inferior and it's below other games such as lies of p, black myth wukong, stellar blade where they are actually evolving the genre in so many ways.
I think the reason people are so quick to justify and defend the game, and discredit the opinions and intelligence of anyone offering criticism, is because that’s what they have to do to be okay with how the game turned out themselves. They can probably see how flawed ER and especially its DLC are, but have had to convince themselves somehow that no, there’s a reason it all feels like this, surely it’s still the masterpiece they were expecting, it all must be intentional… And the people pointing it out, saying “hey, uh, this actually wasn’t that great after all” threaten the peace of mind they’ve had to find.
It’s like why so many people get insanely patriotic in the US when this place has so clearly gone down the wrong path. If they can’t take pride in their country, what can they take pride in? They’d rather fight for an unjust cause, than accept the reality that their cause is unjust.
@@eliasfigarzon9813What flaws? This game is still a solid 9 at the very least.
I would ask you take the rose tinted glasses off for a second and remember that ever since dark souls there were always people who shit on the next game. "Dark souls isn't like demon souls" "Dark souls 2 isn't dark souls" "Dark souls 3 is bullshit hard" "Bloodborne is too hard and the lore makes no sense" "Sekiro is just complete and utter shit, no builds, just r1 spam, tools are useless, bosses are lame compared to the other games, the final boss is bs"
Not to mention the lore people who were a minority that got larger but lacked the ability to be civil and accused every relevant guy of stealing from another.
I don't want to bust out the list of complaints but let me tell you, you've got a serious case of forgetitis.
@@BygoneT lmao kid what's wrong with you? Can't accept the facts? OK I'll tell you some of the list here.
Lore is all over the place and broken.
Terrible design in so many areas.
Bad boss Design, the worst of the whole souls series.
Side quest are impossible to track due to the open world.
Open world lacks spaces where you can do something and not just stare at the landscape because it is empty.
Lack of replay value even though it is an open world game.
Bad leveling system for the dlc.
Bosses from other games that aren't souls are here. Looking at you malenia.
So many reused bosses and enemies. They need to learn from black myth wukong here.
The camera is the worst here.
So many repeated bosses here.
Again, they need to look at black myth wukong here.
Weird hit boxes in many areas.
And the list goes on, now feel free to attack me with your ideas about how wrong I am in everything I say here.
@@eliasfigarzon9813 What are you even saying "kid" for? Isn't there a guy right above my comment saying things about getting defensive and insulting others? Pointing out you're forgetting things isn't an insult.
What are some examples of all over the place lore?
Terrible design is subjective, next. Loved every single area.
Bad boss design is subjective, next. Radahn is my favourite boss of the DLC, top 3 bosses of the entire game followed by Malenia who I died to over 1000 times. The only gripe I have about a boss in this DLC is reusing the lion but that's lore justified.
Side quests being impossible to track was the same in the base game, a minor issue if you explore like a maniac like I do, but creating quests like it's King's Field was their idea. It does feel amazing to complete them without using any help, which is entirely possible is part of the intent. Sometimes even on ps5 you can miss NPCs taking time to load in. But this depends on the quest. Manus metyr quests are right there, Freya is easy, Ansbach too, Thiollier was the only annoying one along with Moore but once you know where to go it's all right. The dragon priestess is trivially easy, not to mention Igon.
This point is void of any reason, what does "do something other than stare into empty space" even mean? There are enemies to fight, castles to assault, tears to get from the giant walking cauldrons of doom, paintings to solve, items to find, etc. Void point, genuinely feels random to see it here, it's like you stopped at the first opening of the DLC and went no further.
Nah lack of replay value is insane. Actually out of this world, there is legitimately a tear that unlocks Sekiro in ER and you're telling me that's not worth several playthroughs? I will replay this to death. The aesthetics variety in this DLC is huge, i love every boss, adds tons of materials and cool weapons, idk what you're on about.
The leveling system is an issue because of what? Collecting it? You barely need 12 to be efficient. I don't mind it at all. I don't think it's great barring the big numbers of damage you'd never get to see otherwise. Not great not bad to me. But it does solve the fundamental problem of people coming in over leveled for their first experiences and shitting on it because they're OP. If that's the only intent then it's a good system.
Bad bosses from other games? Holy still going on about that thing. It's like the people who still say poise is off in ds3. Malenia is amazing and I will not stand for this slander. All of her moves can be dealt with, not a single one is impossible to counter in some way. Fighting her is like dancing, I always leave a character in front of her and PCRadahn if I want to fight them to pass 30 minutes and never beat them just to try it with another weapon.
I rarely had camera problems. Don't know what to tell you.
Yeah there are a couple repeated bosses, so? Oh no... I don't receivemental damage from it. Godefroy is not my favourite boss, but he doesn't diminish my experience, to make a point.
Asset reuse is a standard in videogames, legit doesn't matter when the map is bigger and better than promised, with all the spells and weapons added, tears, AoW, etc. This DLC is as big as a full game but at reasonable price.
Idk about weird hitboxes but I played not too long ago for the first time Maybe they were fixed.
Haven't played BMW but will eventually get to it. if you like it good for you, but in no way does it mean anything that you prefer their approach.
Yeah, there's not much I can add because you explained my thoughts very well. It's not that Radahn being the promised consort can't work it's just that the execution is poor, sadly. It feels like the DLC needed more development time, really. Even if you read everything, pay attention to the environment, etc., it still leaves you feeling like something's missing. Why the heck do we fight Romina? Because she's in the way, that's why. Why is Messmer blocking the path to Miquela even when Miquela is supposedly trying to "undo" his and their mother's crimes? Because he's in the way, that's why. Why is Radahn fighting us? Uuuh... Because... promised consort shenanigans? But we don't get a glimpse of motive on his part. We know what Miquella wants, but Radahn could've been a souless automaton and not much would've changed. One could try to argue that that's the point, that Miquella turns people into puppets, but we have seen that it's not the case: Malenia, Leda, Dane, Thiollier, Ansbach, Leda... All people pledged to Miquella in some way, some of the confirmed to be charmed, but they still show purpose and a variety of interests and degrees of conformity. Miquella's compulsion doesn't strip people of all their personality.
Edit to add: The only thing that Miquella's final memory adds, if any, is a confirmation that Miquella's intentions were true, but, still... why do we need that confirmation? That's one of the things it's fun to speculate about. Radahn's motives right now I wouldn't even consider as worthy of speculation: we've got NOTHING on them, so we can only invent them from scratch and, at that point, it's 100 % fanfiction.
Both Romina and Rellana were prime examples of just how bad the time crunch must have gotten. Both hugely important characters with whole backstories and we learn nothing that connects to any larger narrative. Hell, the most lore important character ended up being Bayle which completely contradicts the ongoing theme of "history being lost through time." We learned more about ancient beings than about current, ongoing dynasties. Very strange all around.
@BigBadWolframio WE can sort of ascertain Radahn's motivation by what we know about his goals prior. We know he ditched the Golden Order when he decided to join Miquella so the next ppssible explanation was that Radahn just wanted to be Elden Lord and was grateful that Miquella gave him the opportunity to be so when he was revived, so just joined him out of solidarity even though initially they were in disagreement. And to be fair, we fight a LOT of from bosses just cause they're in the way even in their dlcs. Demon prince, Ludwig, Artorias, crystal sage, curse rotted greatwood, vordt, dancer, pontiff, Kalameet, Living Failures, One reborn, shadows of yharnam, martyr logarius(since the hunter just wanted to uncover the mysteries of the castle) and even Lady Maria to an extent(we want to unlock the secrets of the old hunters and she doesn't want that). I think the real thing we should be critsizing here is some of the dlc bosses don't do a good job of establishingWHY we fight THEM. There is no real reason why Romina may want to fight us and it sucks cause elden Ring, more than any other fromsoft game, does a pretty stellar job at establishing boss motivations EVEN in the same dlc. Shame both Romina and Rellana got none of that. Rellana could have literally had a 5 second cutscene where she just says that she knows were going to hurt Messmer and it's her duty to not let that happen. Or Have a cutscene where Romina is pissed and cursing the golden order and fights us since we have guilt by association.
As for Radahn, it's pretty simple
There can only be one lord. And he wants to be Elden Lord. So we gotta go.
@@cabbagedemon5944 they are not "hugely important" one is just the sword of the actual important character
The Bewitching Branches make people kill their own allies, so Miquella can severely brainwash people, and he does so to the Tarnished with the grab attack, so that's likely the case with the revived Radahn. Messmer hates that a Tarnished is selected to be Elden Lord since it's a new, severe betrayal and he's been badly hurt already. Also, if Messmer knows what a Tarnished is, then he likely knows what the guidance of Grace leading Tarnished to a demi-god entails, and feels that Marika is ordering the Tarnished to kill him.
The seal on Messmer might also be forcing him to fight those without Grace to an extent, and once the seal is gone, there's the matter of the abyssal serpent's influence. Romina is likely a minion of the Scarlet Rot by that point and thus is directed to attack everyone.
That said, I agree that the execution for Miquella wanting Radahn as his consort is very poor.
If a player doesn't do *all* of Ansbach and Freyja's quest, they will be tremendously lost, and the idea feels weak even then. There needed to be more to emphasize Miquella being desperate and grabbing at straws, with characters in the setting even being surprised and disappointed in Miquella for taking such an aimless shot in the dark.
It can be inferred that Miquella wasn't the knows-everything, unpressured, flawless savior that some people hoped him to be, but more needed to go into expressing how he was at his wit's end and cracking. The tragedy of his abduction ruining the Haligtree plan, something even Marika seemingly thought had merit due to her noted sorrow Gideon mentions upon the kidnapping, needed to be addressed again as well.
Messmer death was necessary for the tarnished to burn the branches of the shadow tree obstructing enir ilim.
The reason we fight Radahn is kinda obvious. We aint allowing any other lords other than us, regardless of their intentions. Also the mid fight cutscene kinda heavily implies that Radahns soul is returned to that body, as per the vow.
No clue as to what is going on with Romina though
Thank God you uploaded a video, now I can finally have an opinion again
So Miquella's plan was to get kidnapped, get Mogh under his control, fkn die, have his sister go for Radahn, have her kill Radahn(which failed btw we had to do it), then for someone to kill Mogh???, to then ressurect Radahn through Mogh which would mean he had to follow the accord, then to have his called champions burn the shadow, and then ascend. That plan is so bad xD, like it can fail so easily. Why didn't he just ascended with Mogh and trick him to abandon formless mother xd, or do so with his sister, if he wanted Radahn cause he was strong but then had his sister go after him to kill him, wouldn't that make his sister stronger than Radahn xd. And then Godwyn why do so much for him if you gonna abondon him, what with eclipse what with the sword dedicated to him, RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH.
I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective. He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily.
No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready. He just needs someone to kill Radahn which people are trying to do. He charmed Radahn so he doesn't need him to follow the vow.
He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood.
He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq. They seem to have emerged after Miq passed through. Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line, he was so crushed by his mother abandoning him he sided with Miq and put the thorns as a way to defend him.
Hole story felt like a retcon it really makes more sense for nit to have been godwyn
Mogh kidnapping him is not part of the plan IMHO by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land.
Also there’s a lot of sign that touches is needed for her charm to works. It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. He either accept he won’t become god or concoct a new plan. Remember that the stories happened for thousands of years and not a human lifetime
@@yudistiraliem135 "by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land. " I mean I don't think they can get to Shadowlands, a god arisen there while they were missing ?
"It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. " To be honest I think that could be true, he was asleep so he couldn't control Mogh but after he was taken then he could. The problem with that is, he already sent his sister to kill Radahn indicating that he already planned to have him as his Lord, but to ressurect him he would require a demigod's body, and I don't think he had a spare in his fridge xd
@@specialnewb9821 "I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective." Yeah that makes sense kind of weird to see Malenia being used as a pawn though..
"He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily." Yeah I can see that, but he ascended before Radahn was ressurected. Miq returened and was like: oh hi bro glad to see you, so he could have done the same thing, also Radahn had Mogh's body and he used blood magic so it's not like Radahn is clean of outer god influance xd.
"No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready." Why he didn't do it then xD (I know game reasons but after we kill Radahn, Mogh should be there dead by your logic) Also I am not sure how far the influance extends to, we see soldiers exploding in his name so I guess that's possible??
"He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood." I mean there is one NPC who said that they failed at bringing eclipse but it could have happened in Shadowlands land of the dead xd, it would be nice if the game actually said something about Miq actually failing in the DLC to bring Godwyn. Eclipse is said to keep the destined death away so just omitting it is sad, I mean it's weird that so many people believe it exists and has it's influance while it doesn't.
"He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq." We were called to Shadowlands to go to find Miquella why would he do that if he didn't need us? Though you are right "Kind Miquella is bound for the tower of shadow. If we are to reach him" it doesn't say that Miquella can't go through the shadows so I am more on your side here though it doesn't say that he already crossed it, it says that he is still bound to it.
"Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line" well it was cut and the Messmer that we find is pro Marika
My biggest question is why is it so important who the consort is? I feel like the ending just talked about the consort. My consort this, consort that. Who cares. I wanted to know more about miquella and his age. Not who his wedding.
The consort is likely the enforcer of the age, For Marika, it was Godfrey, Radagon, and the player, before her, since Placidusax was the Elden Lord prior, they were likely the consort of whichever god ruled before. Miquella wants to rule an age of "compassion" so he would need a strong champion to enact it.
@@bigsundays9058 I know that but they are not more important that the god itself
@@emiliocharreton7700 they seem to exist in tandem, The gods often seem unable to exact their own will, which is why they seemingly choose someone stronger than themselves , at least physically, as lords.
I always thought we were gonna fight Malenia again, as her true form of godess of rot, giving the clues in her fight (cut content, no "demigod felled" at the end etc...), I even think that they replaced her with Romina... So strange
Plus, the last words of the DLC should have been those of Sir Ansbach : "become a lord, not for gods, but for men"
None of the demigods had "Demigod Felled" show up on early patches of the game, but it was later added to all of them, including Malenia
The dlc made the timeline more confusing and didn't answer much from the base game, godwyn even though it is said by rogier that his death was the reason for the shattering, has very little information about him on the base game
We just know that he defeated fortissax and died
That's it
Its very strange for a caracther that should be one of the most important
Yeah like the timeline was already vague and now it’s even more messy than before. DLC created more issues than it fixed.
there was much more said about him, if you actually paid attention tho
What part of the timeline is confusing you?
Also why would the DLC cover the shattering, that's what the base game was about. The DLC was meant the cover Marika's ascension to Godhood and Miquella's attempts at following in her steps. Where would Godwyn fit into any of this?
Honestly as someone who puts elden ring as one of his favourites gane ever, i was quite disappointed with the lore of the dlc. I think that one of the best things that the base game did was how they set up the characters before you fight them, you get to know every demigod in some capacity before you fight them, and then when you finally fight them the cutscene and dialogue of the fight put the icing on the cake and make the boss feel like actually well written characters. The characters were also all connected to each other in some way and that added depth to the world, it made it feel more believable. This is also why The Old Hunters is one of my favourite pieces of content, it checks all the marks on how to make the bosses feel more than just video game enemies.
The dlc completely regresses on this philosophy and i just find that to be very disappointing. The only characters that have proper build up to them are Messmer, Bayle, Midra and Miquella, but like this video says Miquella's story is confusing, and all of these characters are completely unrelated to each other. Every other boss is this same exact thing but worse, Romina, Rellana, the avatar, Gaius ecc just feel like normal enemies in a video game without any kind of motivation to fight you, the lore from their item descriptions is cool, but they simply lack anything else to feel more than random encounters, they just pale in comparison to any other character roster from any of their most recent games, and a massive downgrade to base game elden ring which is a shame because the dlcs generally tend to be better.
I agree with this so much! The DLC helped me understand a lot of why I really like the base game. Take a character like Godrick. If he was just, in a room with no buildup, he'd be pretty uninteresting. But Stormveil's ornate golden trimmings contrasted with the decay of the castle do such a good job at characterising him.
Then when you get to him, he demands your respect despite his sickly, mangled appearance. Everyone likes to point out how Godrick is pathetic, and while he is, FromSoft do a great job at making him feel like a menace. He's a deluded maniac who's attained unfathomable strength, it really compels you to want to defeat him, aside from just ticking off the demigod murder list.
I never got that feeling with the DLC, aside from with Messmer (and Bayle and Midra to a lesser extent)
That is a very important point to make. Why do the bosses in SotE fight us? Don't they want to rejoin the Golden Order? Does anything we do affect the state of the Lands of Shadow after we beat Miquedahn? I have no clue, this doesn't seem to affect the main story of the Lands Between, nor the story of the Lands of Shadow...
Ludwig isn't connected to Maria outside of both being hunters, nor does he have anything to do with the living failures. But if we go by thst logic, we can't condemn the dlc bosses for "having no connection" since all of them except for Midra and Bayle were screwed over by Marika in some way. And the demon princes have jack all to do with Midir and Halflight. And Gael doesn't have any connection to any of the bosses outside of association of all of them being subject under Gwyn's rule at some point but that can be said for a lot of bosses. Kalameet isn't even relevant to the plot of his dlc. The only narrative purpose he serves is to give Gough something to do outside of exposition.
@@balaclavakid3905 I got that feeling constantly with the dlc
@@thesnatcher3616 Ludwig is connected to the healing church, therefore being connected to laurence, Maria is connected to all the bosses past ludwig and she has a whole area to build her up.
The other point you made is just a strawman argument. I never said anything about the ringed city, and it doesn't matter anyway because the scope of that dlc is completely different. My major point was about how much worse the characters in the dlc were compared to base game elden ring and your counter argument is "uhhhm, kalameet is not a major part of the dark souls dlc"
I feel that, when you look at events prior, it becomes painfully obvious that Radahn isnt allied with Miquella by the time of the Shattering War. Sure, he may have made the vow when they were younger, but, for one reason or another, he broke it off.
As for Godwyn...well, considering that he's tied to a questline that can easily be messed up and locked out, it makes sense that he's bsrely involved in the dlc.
8:20 actually weirdly enough you find the second highest concentration of Trina’s Lillies and her sword in Caelid at the Forsaken Ruins. The flowers are everywhere so it didn’t stand out, but the sword’s placement on top of that is interesting. There’s also a ton of them in Liurnia.
Miquella’s Lillie’s are also primarily in Caelid and Liurna.
Someone also pointed out recently the top and bottom ends of Radahn’s bow looks eerily similar to lillies, as does some of the iconography on his cape. It’s harder to tell with these though since there are good arguments in favor of them being lions’ tails.
There’s a bunch of things that add up retroactively but I think the problem is the base game only hints at it with audio and visual queues. The subtlety resulted in the ending feeling like a twist instead of a potential outcome.
ha! as if Miyazaki would let anything get in the way of his little Berserk fanfiction…
"gOdWyNs StOrY iS oVeR"
Bro we literally unalive radahn and mogh ourselves in the main game yet here they are again.
yeah but godwyn is dead dead, soul is gone
@@OneAndOnlyDave117he still reacts if you attack Fia, clearly, he's not dead dead, just dead
@@therogueserafim271 I feel that it’s like a dead bug twitching
In fairness, Miquella realives them, so that doesn't matter. No, the problem with Godwyn is he's actually still able to think and act, to some degree, and they opted to basically just leave that as a glorified easter egg.
Perhaps if Miyazaki gets pressured into doing a sequel we'll get more with Godwyn.
I think you nailed it in the head when you mentioned “setup and payoff” and how they seemingly ignored such a simple & important storytelling device in the DLC.
There was some things that were set up in the base game that didn’t pay off in the DLC. At the same time, there were things that were never set up coming out of nowhere when the DLC dropped.
I used to love and speculate about the lore in ER, but because I was so disappointed with the DLC lore inconsistencies and its ending, I started to not care about the story.
(Why be invested in the world of Elden Ring if the lore and story do not matter all that much?)
I still enjoyed the DLC to an extent, but I think it’s a step down compared to the base game.
Great video, btw.
what inconsistencies?
@@Sercroc I was referring to the setup and payoff inconsistencies.
So I believe the Amber Starlight and Ranni’s questline sheds some light on Radahn and the nature of fate and mind control in the world of Elden Ring.
The Amber Draught that is concocted with Starlight from a shrine to Miquella fails to alter the fate of Ranni’s doll form. It seems that the “fate that is written in the stars” is something that Carian sorcery is able to harness.
Selivus’ efforts to subjugate Ranni are an interesting parallel to Miquella’s own attempts to charm Radahn.
The Lucidity spell and the focus stat are examples of how a sorcerer can abate forms of mental control so it can be reasonably assumed that the Carian family, which has a divine connection to the stars, also has a capacity to resist things that could alter their fate.
Killing Radahn and being present when his soul is revived could then be a way to weaken him enough for Miquella’s charm to fully function.
Since we never see Radahn agree to the vow i think he never vowed to be Miquella's champion. It was all one sided on Miquella's part; which makes sense why he sent Malenia after him.
@@michaelr5361 Radahn had no part to play in the vow. Radahn made a a promise, not a vow. The one who made the vow is miquella and some other third party that wasn't mentioned.
Which blows the whole "radahn was mind controlled," out the window, because if it were that easy, why would Miquella need to give something in return for Radahn's promise, aka the vow? Just force him into the promise with no strings attached, no need to make a vow.
45 seconds in, and you showed the lion statue with horns, and I can't help but feel like that perfectly illustrates the promised consort - Radahn the Lion and Mohg the horned Omen becoming one. It would have been really cool to see more of Mohg coming through in the final boss, kind of like when Goku and Vegeta fuse and you get parts of both characters.
Radahn is a bad choice no matter what. And for those that say Godwyn couldn't be the final boss for lore reasons, ANYTHING can happen in these games! It's a fantasy world.
If anything can happen just because muh fantasy then Radahn isn't a bad choice no matter what because ANYTHING can happen in these games It's a fantasy world. You debunk yourself. Godwyns soul was completely destroyed his body is in the game as death root. People thinking Godwyn should be in the DLC are just unintelligent period.
@@SM-nz9ffthe established rules are bent and broken all over this game, you can't claim that Godwyn is the only part that obeys the rules.
@@daruddock No they aren't
Exactly. Like everyone keeps saying "no don't use Godwyn! His story is complete. He's dead. Nothing to expand upon."
So was Radahn. LIke I'm sorry, I want to explore more of Godwyn. What was his personality? Weaponry? Relationship? Instead of him just being "The Dead Guy."
Like Godwyn at least makes sense with the base game cause we were shown that Miquella wanted to save Godwyn using the Eclipse in the base game. Having it be Radahn where there is absolutely 0 connection with each other in the base game would make just as much sense if Miquella chose Rykard lol.
Also, the DLC keeps gaslighting us like, oh yeah Miquella and Radahn have a close relationship the whole time! They made a vow and are in love with each other. Uh that was not established at all in the base game.
Honestly the dlc messed up the entire established timeline and created this whole Miquella and Radahn thing out of nothing.
Miquella suddenly doesn’t care about his dear sister. Suddenly he didn’t really need to cocoon himself up, he didn’t really care for his Haligtree. All of a sudden he’s determined to become a god and Radahn was to be his consort the whole time.
“No one saw it coming.”
How does he abandon his body (the one we touch to go to the dlc) to go to the Land of Shadow and still manage to leave “his flesh” behind btw?
Whose body is the one in the cocoon then?
No one will ever know lol
Also, out of the blue my guy Miquella isn’t even interested in his Eclipse Ritual anymore; he doesn’t care about Godwyn who - I might add - is the only character who he ever called “lord brother.”
“As a god he can cure his sister” not even Marika could do that and he can because reasons? “But Malenia awaited his return, ‘his promise’ she says” again: how does godhood cure her? Divine needles? He already made them. We can even use one!
And please, stop with the Velka character type. People are saying the craziest things about the Gloam Eyed Queen. Just show her lol Velka’s rapier = Blackflame Greatsword: a goddess is so badass she wanted to kill gods, she gets unalived and all that remains are scraps of lore. What’s up with this trope, Miyazaki?
Fromsoftware can make mistakes and this is one of them, no issues about it but still. If the dlc needed more time to conclude and finish, then take more time. It’s fine! You’ve been doing this since DS1: you start a project, you run out of time, you ship the game anyway.
As if the Mountaintops of the Giants was to be this plain and empty bc lore. As if you didn’t want to let players fight the Elden Beast with Torrent bc lore, nah, you simply didn’t have the time to implement it as a feature. And what do you know, you fixed it!
Fix your game, it’s fine, everyone makes mistakes lol
Great comment. Everyone acts like either FromSoft never makes mistakes and craft everything beautifully, or they're losing their minds and the DLC ruined the whole game. It's fine to mess up things as long as you learn from them (and in case they can be fixed, then fix them). No biggie.
Yeah the timeline was already messy and while some lore bits are interesting they added further confusion to it all.
He did care about the Haligtree, though. The only reason he isn't there right now is because he was kidnapped. I know there's a theory that he got himself abducted on purpose, but there's no real evidence of this. Plus, it doesn't make sense for all the reasons you outlined.
Why do you think he doesn't care about Malenia? He doesn't mention her at all except to praise her deeds.
I kind of get your points, and even agree to some extent, but I think this whole "Miquella suddenly didn't care about anything" came out of nowhere and there's not real base for that argument.
He wanting to become a God doesn't mean that he forgot about Malenia or the Haligtree. I don't know how anyone came to that conclusion. If anything, we will never truly know what was he going to do since he died 5 minutes after achieving godhood. What we know is that he couldn't cure Malenia with the tools he had at the moment. Malenia's rot was halted with the needles, but that wasn't enough to save her in the long run or even to avoid the spreading of rot through the Haligtree, which is why I think his metamorphosis plan wasn't going to work either. What was left for him to do? Probably his last resort was to follow the path of the Empyrean a try to become a god through the only method that was proven to work: the divine gate.
From Malenia's dialogue, I think it's possible to infer that Miquella gave her some parting words before he left the Haligtree, promising to reunite with her after he achieved Godhood.
Now, you think because Marika or the GO couldn't do anything to cure Malenia, it means that Miquella couldn't do it either, but the thing is that he actually invented something that helped Malenia more than anything: the unalloyed gold, and he created it without being a god and with the limitations imposed by his own curse. How much wouldn't he be able to do with the full power of godhood, free from his curse? Or a least that's how I think he reasoned his plan.
To be fair, doesn't the game say that the eclipse plan FAILED? But then again a dlc where Miquella tries again would have been cool as hell and would have fleshed out two underdeveloped characters at once and would have had a sick eclipse backdrop that would have also served as a nice nod to Ds3, although again, the game makes it pretty clear Godwyn's soul was gone. And I'm not sure how you can really "revive" his BODY since it's sort of integrated into the lands between itself. Dlc suffers enough from weird transformations anyway(miquella in the real world vs shadow realm). If from used Godwyn in some way, I bet we would have got people complaining about how it contradicts what was set up in the base game and how using his body/soul makes zero sense and begs the question on why Ranni couldn't get her own body back. Elden ring lore was controversial even before the dlc launched after all with the likes of Godefroy and all that. Not saying they shouldn't have done this btw. Just trying to add a bit more nuance here. But I do agree this dlc needed more time in the oven. Hopefully they can give it more updates to add more context(cutscenes, updated lines and desriptions) despite them saying they won't make more dlcs. Best case scenario is that all of this ages like milk. I hate Velka characters too
I was expecting to fight Miquella in his full god form after Radahn as the actual last boss. Similarly to Elden Beast after Radagon. Was disappointed to find out that wasn’t the case.
I agree with everything you've said, besides miquella being poorly a written Marika the bottom line is that it shouldn't have been Radahn again.
I agreed with this for a while but have come around on the “ending.” The DLC is not meant to be the ending of the game and Godwyn has a specific ending already attached to the story of the main game. I dont think it would narratively make sense to include him in the story because of that. Also, Radahn really makes perfect sense when you consider his role as the new Godfrey (foreshadowed via his obsession with Godfrey despite being son of Radagon) in the holy trinity necessary to become a God via the gate of divinity. Read the secret rite scroll again and tell me who formed the original trinity with Marika…
I was perplexed by the decision for them to use Radahn. As, the game entirely spoke to us through item descriptions that Godwyn would have maybe been Miquella’s chosen consort. The Golden Epitaph, and all items involving castle sol, made it very clear that Miquella intended to revive and then possibly kill Godwyn outright to give his souls a proper rest. That he was obviously denied due to Ranni’s intrigue. My assumption was, as I believe some also assumed, we would be going to the place where Godwyn’s souls was sent, and somehow killing it there or capturing it to be used at his body under the capital, fusing them or whatever and then fighting whatever amalgamation he has become. I was fully ready for that to be a part of the DLC. I was just left… speechless… but not in a good way when I saw Radahn. I had assumed maybe Miquella would have brought back Godwyn. Radahn just seems… not it.
Godwyn would have made much more sense, and had actual buildup. Any perceived contradictions to the base games lore would be put down to FromSoft’s ambiguous storytelling. No one would be confused or upset. There would be no controversy. It would be thematically relevant. I don’t know why they did what they did, but it definitely “tarnished” my respect for the way they tell stories in their games.
@@LeggoMyGekko godwyn would have made less sense than Radahn
Miquella's goal with Godwyn seemed to be curing the Death Blight, both to rescue those affected by it and to prevent others from being affected by it. Miquella wasn't necessarily hoping to have Godwyn as his consort, and people expected that Miquella was still trying to save the world by solving this. The problems, IMO, are the poor execution of the DLC's reveals with Miquella and a crucial mistranslation in Freyja's dialogue that makes it sound like Radahn's soul was killed.
Only item in castle sol that relates to Godwyn is the eclipse shotel. Everything else refers to the soulless demigod right outside
Godwyn fans have stretched the lore to such ridiculous places and then get mad when it’s confirmed false
@@Kashi-qo8ik You should really watch some of Quelaag’s videos from before the DLC. Then you will understand what I am saying. I’m not going to argue or debate with you, nor will I insult you.
I think we should've got a better ending. I don't think that cut scene was really fitting for an ending. I think it would have been better for one of his memories at the cross or something. But to be our reward for fighting a boss that literally had to get adjusted, because its hit boxes were inherently broken and unfair. Is absolutely wild and mid
Ascsomeone who thinks people overhype Radahn because of his militaristic propaganda mionions’ dialogies, fighting him again was already an emotional letdown compared to the rest of the dlc.
And some of my reasons is that 1. His reborn character design: you get the set up for a frankenstein monster, and instead get an abercrombie model; 2 his story is very simple and pretty basic, so much so that even his cut dialogue was just him introducing himself, which undermines te emotional depth of Miquella, Malenia and Marika for example, leading to a plain cool boss moment; 3 the stylistic contrast that his design has with everything else, in a Land os shadowns and desaturate colours and deep red/blues his shining ketchup and mustard armour was another punch in my eyes.
Lat joke aside, I’m also bitter about this missed opportunity regarding Malenia and Romina’s lore, both tied to scarlet rot, and to a degree even Midra: all three are affected by outer gods to a monstrous degree and yet they are barely described despite Miquella creating a needle to seal then in their host, mesning he has extensively studied his sister whom he then just sends to die… for Radahn.
I dunno, he felt very flat to me once i started digging down is character, and possible motivations for his eternal war lust.
Yeah I think Godwyn was a red herring at this point sadly.
It really makes sense but they did a left turn at the last minute and used Radahn lol
Godwyn is not a red herring. It only is because people ignored everything just to have a fight with him
In order to be a red herring you need significant evidence he was ever a candidate in the first place
He has an ending dedicated to him
I strongly suspect people are not understanding what has happened. The evidence is mounting that this isnt even radahn. It mostly likely a "mimic" using mogh as the base. With the condemning mogh's soul comment making further sense if we assume the souls in Elden ring are a set of memories of the individual, a reflection, and that image was overwritten by miquella and rewritten as the last memories of his of Radahn, erasing mogh. Also i suspect he had to use mogh since he forceably became miquella's consort.
Radahn would have felt better as an alternative final boss that requires a lot of foreknowledge to unlock. Like how Solaire usually ends up dead by default, but you can jump through several hoops to change his fate to a good ending. 15:48 And I also thought that jar bairn could have been used to accomplish that.
What if the usual ending to the DLC involved Miquella resurrecting some long-dead hornsent hero to be his consort, in order to make amends with their people...
...but if you've given Jar Bairn the innards of Alexander and caused him to leave jarburg, you can meet him again in the shadow realm. And if you talk to him and follow his quest there, you inadvertently end up prompting him to arrive at the gate of divinity, and somehow meddle in whatever corpse ritual Miquella is pulling there, accidentally hijacking it with the flesh inside his body and causing Radahn to be resurrected instead.
It'd certainly feel less like an asspull if the player had to go out of their way to make it happen.
First of all, great video! I especially appreciated the spoiler warning for other fromsoft games as I hope to play them at some point and have successfully avoided spoilers so far.
Personally I think the DLC shows us that Miquella was a tragic hero, he had good intentions but things went south at some point in the shadow realm and he became a monster. To me it isn't unclear because they show that he stripped himself of love, and that he puts all his allies under his enchantment, even if they wish to serve him. This shows that Radahn's motivations have no bearing on what happens to him, Miquella takes his agency.
I do agree that the ending memory is very out of place though, that memory should have had some sort of new info.
Thank you so much! I definitely recommend all of the Soulsbornekiroring games but I think Dark Souls 3 is the best one to start with since it plays the most like Elden Ring.
And that read of Miquella being a tragic hero makes a lot of sense. (And things literally went south since he discarded St. Trina in the Cerulean Coast.)
I'm a madman I'm going to play the Soulsbornekiroring games in their release order, may chaos take the world >:)
I just want Radahn to speak like at all. I don't even think he grunts. I've seen people say that he's charmed and that's why he doesn't have a personality, but Mohg was charmed and he has a huge amount of personality.
He does grunt, like a lot, during the fight! I've seen this comment a few times and i just imagine you guys just don't have the sound on or something because i don't get it lol
Well reasoned gripes. I like the examples from other games. I barely read item descriptions, and I never watched lore videos back when I beat bloodborne and dark souls 3. But you're right about the way things were conveyed. Those games were more difficult to understand in some ways. They felt more vague. Maybe that's what makes the dlc so confusing. There's so much more said in Elden Ring, but not enough is answered. It doesn't come off as deliberate by the end.
It's like why cut the Mesmer dialogue? It strikes me as an oversight. They couldn't figure out a way to reconcile their relationship so they didn't bother making one. Then it's like why are they even in this dlc together? Feels like too much dip on the chip. Drop miquella and have it be about Mesmer.
😂 Imagine finding miquella's pieces around only to reveal they once again failed. Stopped by Mesmer the true twink goat
finally someome who doesnt just go 'hur the dlc was perfect' and has some good narrative critique. ive BEEN saying that if youre gonna do the weird incestsquared twin princes callback, at least make it make sense. i was expecting or at least hoping for godwyn, or even messmer as miq's consort. so when radahn showed up it was just bizarre. and the way they try to pull off the callback is kinda lame.
Nobody says that. If anything it's community consensus that the lore is messed up/missed potential, etc. As we see in a lot of comment sections in videos of people either talking about the lore or making memes about it.
@@thesnatcher3616 eh, I've seen a lot of dick riding so I guess we've just been in different circles.
@@thesnatcher3616 different circles then ig, ive seen more people defending the lore and the dlc
@neocores Why would something need to be defended if everyone liked it. I assume you meant praise. And just because some people defend the lore or the dlc as a whole or whatever, doesn't mean they think it was perfect. I sure as hell don't. If anything I see that sort of high caliber praise way more for past from dlcs like Ringed City and the Old Hunters by the community.
@@thesnatcher3616 okay? by 'defending' i mean from people who dare criticize it. not sure why you're taking it personally that i have a different experience of the community to you.
Great video and a well-deserved critique of a disappointing finale to the ER story. I would also like to add that I felt really let down when no one in the main game reacted to the event of the DLC. If you finish the DLC before the Haligtree and come to Gideon he is like 'Oh I wonder where Miquella is' and such. Mate, I just killed Miquella! GOD SLAIN! Have you got anything to say about that? No, not a single word. The DLC feels so disconnected from the base game it''s sad. The devs had 2 years to definitively conclude the story and the lore and connect the loose ends from the main game, but unfortunately didn't manage to accomplish that.
Great video as usual! I like that Fromsoft doesn't want to categorize the games characters as either good, evil or neutral. Not just the bosses, but even characters the player would likely characterize via bias. For example, the Loathsome Dung Eater is generally seen as bad by players but I love that I can also rationalize the hero in him.
I agree that it's difficult not knowing Radahn's perspective on the vow, but I think that would lead to the categorizing of Miquella, so I understand why they didn't share it.
Thanks again for all your great lore videos and congrats on the recent shout-out you received from Geoff!!!
Thank you so much! And getting that shout-out from Smough was a welcome surprise!
I definitely appreciate how much depth FromSoft (usually) puts into its characters. I'm actually planning a video on the LOATHSOME DUNG EATER since he got some more context from the DLC.
@@garrulousgoldmask Can't wait to see it!
The act so much mausoleum lore refers to them as slumbering Demigods or Lhutel awaiting the revival of her Demigod makes it feel like Godwyn was supposed to be the Promised Consort. Godwyn was shown as empathetic. They could've even expanded on Mohg where he wanted to revive Godwyn because he sympathized with Omen. Overall it feels botched
No it doesn't. What it feels like is a bunch of nerds don't understand the lore and then rage whine when their head cannon doesn't come to pass. Godwyn was shown as his soul being completely destroyed as with Rannis body. Completely destroyed by the Rune of Death means just that. DESTROYED ffs learn what definitions mean.
I could watch this religiously. That being said, we're going to see so many more video critiques of the DLC in about 6 more months, mark my words. It's like the 5 stages of Death at this point.
The end of the dlc made me so disappointed that I just stopped watching lore videos for a while, thinking like if all those mysteries and speculations lead only to nowhere or this, i'm just wasting my time
Same bro, it put such a bad taste in my mouth I just dropped the game for a while. I still like the game but I have no desire to replay the dlc like how I replayed the base game.
only tarnished archeolgist has my interest since he tackles a different aspect of the lore, I look at ER in a different light now after the dlc.
@@zaynehamdan1660 opposite I got every answer I wanted out of the dlc
@@dvdivine1962 I agree, tarnished archaeologist has the power to hook me and the last thing I know, I've been lured into watching half an hour of mesopotamian history
Godwyn glazers in shambles lmao
Talented moder made a Melenia, the Promised Consort with custom animations, new skins, and music. We actually get to fight a fully restored Melenia the valkyrie.
The lack of connection between Messmer and Miquella maddens me. There are literally pieces of Miquella IN the Black Castle... and there's nothing significant connecting him and Messmer? Messmer could have been even more proof for Miquella that Marika was fundamentally cursed, the interactions between them literally write themselves...
This DLC proved to me that fromsoft themselves don't know the story of elden ring. I don't think they know what they're doing or trying to tell, and it's very clear that the game was too big for their narrative style.
My theory is that it was never supposed to be Radahn but someone high up shipped them together so hard they managed to bewitch others into making it canon. Also the words " re-used assets" probably helped a lot.
@@luckyowl6432 Are you referring to Consort Radahn as being the re-used asset? Bc he is completely different from the Starscourge in every significant way aside from lore
@@matthiasmelaku7118 Nah, they reused Vengarl from DS2 instead
@@Taikis95 And Sullyvan (again)
@@matheusmillion Sullyvan is so good i don't really mind him being reused tbh
@@luckyowl6432 Miyazaki. He's gone on record stating Radahn is his favorite character in the game and wanted to use him again.
Though I don't like you framing it as a shipping thing. Radahn and Miquella is made very clear to be the wrong thing and very disturbing, not a genuine ship of the two characters.
Hard disagree that PCR fits the lore. You really have to shoehorn him in, and it feels like a major retcon. It's incredible that they found a way to miss the landing so completely their best game yet. I think the most disappointing part is how the ending destroys the masterfully crafted character of Miquela. They were supposed to be playing 5D chess, but instead they just wanted to be a boss we already defeated. Miquela was somehow not smart enough to realize that throwing away all that made them who they are wasn't going to make the world better, and then it's just another power play like the other demigods. All that, and the boss fight itself isn't even fun to play.
I was so disappointed with Radahn being the final boss, I wanted something more centered around Miquella, maybe fighting him alone, but Miquella only ever talks about Radahn and hasn't much personality of his own.
Doesn't help that we didn't meet Miquella prior to this final and only encounter, which makes him feel even more underdeveloped and disappointing. The trailer even "promised" the scene with Miquella lifting the veil and set expectations of interacting with him more that weren't fulfilled.
Base game Miquella felt very different to this Miquella we got in the DLC and I''m not impressed. He makes me feel pretty much nothing, regardless of how you want to interpret him, he doesn't feel evil enough nor does he feel kind enough. "Show, don't tell" isn't really to be found, there is only tell about him from other characters "how kindly he is" or that "he is a monster" but so little show if at all. He just does his apathetic little speech and that's it.
but tha't like his thing, he doesn't care about asnyone (except maybe radanh, godwyn) and everyone is just apawn. remember everything we know about him is told by others giving their take, not the truth.
@@Sercroc He does care about the whole world in a way, why else is he talking about an age of compassion? But even when you see him as just a cold puppeteer, there is so little to him in this DLC (except other people talking about him) that it still doesn't work presentation wise. There is just so little there to have any reaction to it at all.
Compare this to Ranni: We have so much dialogue with her, a whole involved questline etc but the only thing we get from a DLC centered around Miquella is his simp followers but not him.
@@lexiferenczy9695 yes but it's he really is just achild, wants to do good without reallazing aeveryone he's fucking over
My issue with the DLC is that I found Miquella's story very separate from Marika's story. It was almost like playing two different DLCs. The most we got were some dialogues with NPCs, and that's it. As for Radahn, I didn’t feel a lack of preparation; I was satisfied. I just interpreted that Radahn was there against his will, bewitched by Miquella. Otherwise, there would be no need to send Malenia to kill him. I just wanted more connection between the plots. And I also missed something about Melina. I wanted to feel like she was more than just a twinplay resource.
That ending cinematic is completely useless. Miquella just says stuff that he's already been saying. I screamed at my TV, "THAT'S IT?!?!?!?!"
The only thing I can think of is that it was because they weren’t planning on doing a dlc originally. I just wished they could’ve patched some stuff in the base game to connect it to the dlc better
I saw someone else point this out elsewhere, and I thought it was a great point, but Radahn is a literal warmonger, an "endless war" befits him, right? What the hell kind of match would thay be for an "age of compassion"? It's in diametric opposition to compassion. Thematically just a complete fucking mess.
And thats only one of many of my issues with this DLC and especially its ending.
I'm very glad you brought up comparisons to the previous DLCs. Beyond the thematic comparisons you brought up, at the most basic "cool game" level, the final boss of the final DLC being ...a remix of a boss you already fought is a massive letdown. Imagine if instead of Gael you had to fighr Aldrich Prime, or if instead of Orphan of Kos you fought The One Re-Reborn. It's just plain lazy and unrewarding.
Ending on such a disappointment really depresses me because I love the world of Elden Ring and would've loved to see it go out on a memorable high note. We aren't getting anything else from Elden Ring, and Im left with sour regret.
Gaius actually gives great insight with his armor set description. Because by establishing the connections between Messmer, Gaius, and Radahn as close brothers means they were all against the Hornsent. The same Hornsent who are now protecting Miquella. Why did Miquella abandon Melania? Because both her and Radahn learned from the Dancing Swordsman which was the same style used to rage war. Which is why Melania and Radahn is much more interesting fight because they have the same swordplay ideology but fueled by different motives and elements. Back to my original point. Messmer campaign was to rage war on all the Hornsent because of their history with Marikas people. Radahn and Gaius were very close to Messmer so it's very reasonable to deduce after the Shattering it wasn't a Free for All but a strategic civil war amongst the demigods started by Miquella. How do I know it was Miquella? Because Miquella abandoned the Order, Radogan, and Marika long before the shattering. When Miquella hated his own fathe/mother Marika broke. She resented her godhood because now her own children hate her. How miserable life must be to be as a hated god...? Hence the Shattering. She couldn't fix Melania and have Miquella forgive her. Miquella even couldn't forgive her for avenging her own people and then went on to become their new savior. That's the story of Elden Ring. This is about what it's like to become "Abandoned God".
"Do you think God stays in heaven because he to is afraid of what he has created?"
Self Hatred is a huge theme in Elden Ring.
I see Miquella and I simply say would.
That is all, post comment
You mean the forever 7 year old?
Yoooo I would've never guessed you were a fellow yinzer. Love to see the neighbors being a success. Keep up the great work.
i still cant believe they brought radhan back. i was very bitter, should have been godwyn
U brought up a lot of really great points man. I thought the dlc was awesome overall, but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t want a little bit more buildup towards the end.
If Miquella was going to turn out to be an antagonist, I think a lot of us thought it would be through bringing back Godywn since there’s just a lot more about all that in the base game if u know where to look rather than his relationship with Radahn, so the shock value of his reveal ends up feeling like “did I miss something..?” at first even if u did piece together that he was coming back through Freyja and Ansbach’s sidequests.
I think once the missing pieces of it all set in and u see how the things unanswered like why Malenia was fighting Radahn fit together, it definitely becomes a lot better overall.
There is a novels worth of lore that George RR Martin wrote for this game's creation pertaining to Miquella and all of these other Gods and their motivations that we will almost certainly never see and that just cements the narrative disappointment of this dlc for me. I remember someone actually spoiled "young Radahn" as a boss in this dlc for me at work and I was actually quite excited bc I assumed that he was gonna be the hidden, optional boss and I was so shook when I figured out he was actually the last mainline boss of the dlc
GRRM wrote the backstory. So the story in the game and all the side quests is from/miyazaki. I think honestly that might have been the issue, having the backstory written by GRRM and the current story by M creates so much dissonance. GRRM is so good at writing “B” plots who have fully fleshed arcs, you can feel that with all the schemes so many of the demi gods are pulling only for Miyazaki to cut them all short. In game you can just cut out Mt Gelmir and Rykard and nothing changes while the lore hints at his involvement with Ranni.
Radahn should have had lines during the fight. That would have been enough but no, the game needed another voiceless boss that theoretically could talk if they wanted to
14:39 He doesn't know
Just keep making videos about Radahn/Miquella and I'll keep watching. Great stuff, great points.
Ofc Raddan was controlled as a puppet, the last scene showed that it was only Miquallas’s wish, that’s was the main point of the Final Cutscene :)
11:53 Miquella basically glimpse beyond the veil and understood that the only thing that makes someone a God is the fact that everyone believes that he is, the boss fight is his attempt at displaying a triumphant Godlike power. it is boisterous, stereotypically divine, overwhelming, and full of itself he carries himself like a God in the hopes that this will make him a God.
The same idea is present in the base game, for instance, the haligtree fails to become powerful because it was only watered by the blood of one person, an immortal person who did not care about losing blood. The erdtree has power because so many people have fought in its name, they have given the tree power. Consider the gate of divinity, it is literally just a huge pile of skulls. It is a bunch of dead people that signify some sort of threshold that Marika crosses to display her power. This is why, even though Miquella and radan were at the gate before you, they cannot meaningfully pass through it in the same way that their mother did, because they did not gather the skulls themselves, no one witnessed this action, so it will not have power over anyone else.
Instances of this misunderstanding of pragmatic political power are present in the base game as well, radagon is a golden order fundamentalist, and his arrogant son spits it back in his face in the unalloyed form. the original alloy of the crucible was a synergy of raw fighting skill and compassionate rule of law, without either aspect, the other would fail, we see this with the implementation of serrosh on Godfrey’s back. Miquella had never lived in a world where order had to be fought hard to maintain, so he did not understand. It is similar to the real world example of fictionalized aristocrats who look at the mob that is there to behead them and offer them cake.
You said pretty much everything I think. And yes, I wasn't expecting Godwyn's either, even witht he DLC screaming for Godwyn in all it's death themes. Tbh, I don't even see Godwyn defying the status quo of the order of his mother to the point of making such a vow with Miquella and, yes, he could be charmed, but it goes against a vow like Marika and Godfrey did for example - and the whole boss is meant to "honor" Godfrey with his fanboy, Radahn. And not expecting Godwyn, I surely wasn't expecting Radahn. I just didn't want to see that guy AGAIN at all with an excuse made out of thin air. And, honestly, every time someone tries to justify it with some previous connection, it all feels like looking for patterns in randomness.
I personally think that "the vow" is potentially referencing the dialog Melina gives you at the battlefield grace near Leyndell. How Marika wanted her children to become lords or gods and not amount to sacrifices. The whole "promised consort" stuff is more open ended, tho.
I do find it weird that so many players hung on to Godwyn as an active entity in the game. Godwyn's personal story is already over by the time the game starts, always has been. As far as connections between Radahn and Miquella in the base game, take a closer look at Radahn's gear. He has a gold-threaded Haligtree emblem on his cape, and the ornaments on the ends of his bow are shaped exactly like a Miquella's Lily.
I do agree with you that the mystery of who is Miquella's consort should have been more upfront, as a leading question within the main game.
I don't think that's a Haligtree emblem on Radahn's cape. Spiral designs are present on the Tree Sentinels' capes, Leyndell's war banners, Godrick's cloak he removes in his cutscene, etc. The ornaments at the ends of the Lion Greatbow resemble lion manes and tails in Elden Ring's heraldry, both in association with the golden lineage and with the depictions on the Banished Knight Shield and banners.
Re: Godwyn; he's just the latest iteration of what happens with every Souls game. There's always one character that the fandom elevates to massive importance in their lore theories that never gets realized in the actual game. In the Dark Souls games, Velka only appears in item descriptions, yet some fans' lore theories basically elevate her to the central character in the lore. (Check some of the lore videos that came out prior to DS3's DLC release; a segment of the fandom was absolutely convinced that what turned out to be the Ringed City was going to take place in Londor and go heavily into "finally explaining" all of Velka's lore.) Ditto Oedon for Bloodborne. Honestly, the strangest thing about Godwyn being the character that gets this treatment in Elden Ring is that Godwyn actually had a genuine presence in the game given the importance of his death in the Night of Black Knives as well as having the Age of the Duskborn ending quest centered around his role as Prince of Death.
Literally what I said when I beat consort “that’s it?
I’m pretty neutral on the matter. I like that radhan got to have a rematch without the madness of slowly decaying but I agree it should have been done better. I’m hoping that this is a sign of more to come because if this wasn’t even hinted at in the base game imagine what other relationships are happening behind the scenes
Look at the distance between haligtree and radahn base....
The lore of Miquella in the dlc, especially in the end felt really awkward and unnatural in a way that pulled me out of all the immersive storytelling, characters and world building for me. I can no longer see Miquella the same way knowing he just a character butchered by the writer
17:24 I’m praying they do Miquella justice like they did for Dark Souls 2. Praying 😭 please
Letting us talk to miriel after certain bosses in the dlc could flesh out rellana Messmer radahn and gaius.
I love that idea! From a technical and scripting standpoint, I could see how it could be difficult to have characters in the base game react to the DLC.
But FromSoft could have easily gotten around this by giving us a wholly new character in the Land of Shadow: Miriel's twin Muriel. They could have even made him look like an Orthodox Patriarch as a counterpart to the Turtle Pope.
@@JabronyJoenZ you just reminded me how frustrated I was that Gideon and Melina have literally fucking nothing to say about anything that happens in the dlc. I get it might be hard because you would have to call the actors back in, maybe it wasn't even possible to do so, maybe the actors wouldn't agree to (although they had 2 years at least, so...)
It just feels so immersion breaking and weird. Gideon tells us all about the demigods, and is searching for the great runes, but he has NOTHING to say about the land of shadow, the scadutree, Messmer, or Miquella becoming a literal god? It really cements the dlc having zero connection to the base game, it feels like it doesn't even exist when you're in the base game. I would have loved to hear him explain some stuff to me
I guess the argument would be that Gideon is "canonically" supposed to be dead at that point, and Melina dead or gone. It just feels strange
Lots of good points made on the video- and this is coming form someone who got happy when they said Radahn was returning because his fight was fun as hell- but it was DEFINITELY a huge letdown when they didn't fully explain why he wanted Radahn over his own twin sister as his consort. Like, Miquella just fucking ABANDONED Malenia at the Haligtree??? And she had been waiting for YEARS it seemed, for Miquella to return to the Haligtree. Absolutely made ZERO sense to me, lore-wise. Mogh made some sense, considering he had that connection in the base game, but Malenia or Godwyn not being pushed? PFFFT!
And yeah, hated that last cutscene- like, yes, I already knew you wanted your brother- BUT WHY???
I wanted the DLC to be about the Eclipse : /
What I kind of wish we had gotten for the dlc:
-Prime Radhan as the Boss right before Enir Ilim
-Godwyn is Miquella's consort (I know this is just me with wishful thinking, but I am sad we didn't get more of him)
-alternatively you could easily have had Radahn protecting St Trina, or protecting Miquella's Great Rune)
-the 'Soulless demigods' could have been a lot of the other bosses (some of the other main bosses seemed so... random??)
-maybe Marika actually speaking for herself? for once? (that memory mechanic could have been better used in the Shaman Village)
-If not Godwyn, Malenia, unafflicted, in her prime as our final boss (easily could have still done an Omen Malenia)
I am honestly one of the people that think yes, there is a decently likelihood that Radahn agreed to the vow: He gets to basically live out his Godfrey fanboy dreams I mean come on. All while protecting a god? Like his idol? Whether you believe there was anything more to that relationship aside from both parties wanting a better world I feel like Radahn would be willing to agree. Especially on the basis that it is never specified (and idk why people don't think about this) that there is a need for more demigod children. Like if you are trying to break this cycle why would you do something to possibly continue adding more gods/contenders for godhood to the world? It really feels to me like people are applying to 'Old Order' logic to the 'New Order' that Miquella wants to create. That said, I also DON'T think you need Radahn as Miquella's consort for this either. Like that is what they did but I don't think it was needed. Miquella piloting Godwyn's creepy body like a puppet would have been just as impactful I feel like and would also parallel the idea that no matter how hard Miquella is trying to break the cycle he is falling into the habits of the system that created him to be a replacement for Marika.
Also I do love the fight with Fortissax, especially since it highlights that relationship and how there may(?) have been dragon blood in Godwyn's line (see Godricks beginning boss dialogue). But also thank you for the Fia's Only Fans line XD. I also was annoyed with that fight. I feel like they could have taken that out and just... had it been Fortissax.
It’s funny I got so much crap from the lore community on Reddit when this dlc first dropped because I beat it a few days after its release, and thought it was so lackluster lore wise and felt so disconnected, they downvoted me to oblivion 😂 but now everyone is not okay with how it was handled compared to past dlcs
Your first mistake was using reddit.
@@nightshadehelis9821 yes my friend you are so very true 😩😂