The biggest letdown was that miquella didn't turn out to be a moth. He is in a cocoon, he has budding bug wings when mohg is stealing him. WTF? I wanted to fight a miquella mothman. Sucks.
The ending cutscene pissed me off so much, it's literally so useless lmaooo I completely agree with your take; I think the devs focused too much on the Mohg twist and did everything to narritively prove his innocense and thus forgot to properly expand on the rest. I like From's vague storytelling most of the time, but sometimes you just gotta admit it's not the best way to tell a good story.
I don't think Mohg was innocent of kidnapping Miquella, his pattern with the war surgeons and the ghost demanding Miquella's return ASAP in the Consecrated Snowfield indicate that the abduction was never Miquella's plan. However, I do agree that the ending cutscene sucked and only told us all of the things we already knew. There was no given answer to the vow, or set up as to why a memory would hover there.
@@nightscout9979 Ansbach straight up said he challenged Miquella, Leda said he "managed to cleave him open". That's not what you do to cocoon with an unresponsive guy in it. The ghost in the CS seems more angry that Mohg is an omen than Miquella's kidnapping lol This is a minor thing and I see how it may not convince people, but the way Malenia (and Haligtree soldier ashes) speaks of Miquella's *return* kinda implies that he went at his own will. Like they were waiting for him to get something done ya know? From a meta-narrative standpoint, I really feel like the story tries its best to convey Mohg's innocence, especially through Ansbach's character who's essentially Mohg's representative (he's kind, rational, honorable, a reliable source etc.) As a writer that's how I'd do it.
@@kennyg3118 Those allusions is basically "oh godwyn is like dead dead, like no turning it back, the world is fucked dead" people were just really wanting a bossfight so they took it as a maybe there is more. He is a cancer on the world. The only relevance he has is to hammer home that the default ending (choosing to be Elden lord) would solve nothing because Godwyn is still a thing and only the more radical endings matter
Yeah, there's not much I can add because you explained my thoughts very well. It's not that Radahn being the promised consort can't work it's just that the execution is poor, sadly. It feels like the DLC needed more development time, really. Even if you read everything, pay attention to the environment, etc., it still leaves you feeling like something's missing. Why the heck do we fight Romina? Because she's in the way, that's why. Why is Messmer blocking the path to Miquela even when Miquela is supposedly trying to "undo" his and their mother's crimes? Because he's in the way, that's why. Why is Radahn fighting us? Uuuh... Because... promised consort shenanigans? But we don't get a glimpse of motive on his part. We know what Miquella wants, but Radahn could've been a souless automaton and not much would've changed. One could try to argue that that's the point, that Miquella turns people into puppets, but we have seen that it's not the case: Malenia, Leda, Dane, Thiollier, Ansbach, Leda... All people pledged to Miquella in some way, some of the confirmed to be charmed, but they still show purpose and a variety of interests and degrees of conformity. Miquella's compulsion doesn't strip people of all their personality. Edit to add: The only thing that Miquella's final memory adds, if any, is a confirmation that Miquella's intentions were true, but, still... why do we need that confirmation? That's one of the things it's fun to speculate about. Radahn's motives right now I wouldn't even consider as worthy of speculation: we've got NOTHING on them, so we can only invent them from scratch and, at that point, it's 100 % fanfiction.
Both Romina and Rellana were prime examples of just how bad the time crunch must have gotten. Both hugely important characters with whole backstories and we learn nothing that connects to any larger narrative. Hell, the most lore important character ended up being Bayle which completely contradicts the ongoing theme of "history being lost through time." We learned more about ancient beings than about current, ongoing dynasties. Very strange all around.
@BigBadWolframio WE can sort of ascertain Radahn's motivation by what we know about his goals prior. We know he ditched the Golden Order when he decided to join Miquella so the next ppssible explanation was that Radahn just wanted to be Elden Lord and was grateful that Miquella gave him the opportunity to be so when he was revived, so just joined him out of solidarity even though initially they were in disagreement. And to be fair, we fight a LOT of from bosses just cause they're in the way even in their dlcs. Demon prince, Ludwig, Artorias, crystal sage, curse rotted greatwood, vordt, dancer, pontiff, Kalameet, Living Failures, One reborn, shadows of yharnam, martyr logarius(since the hunter just wanted to uncover the mysteries of the castle) and even Lady Maria to an extent(we want to unlock the secrets of the old hunters and she doesn't want that). I think the real thing we should be critsizing here is some of the dlc bosses don't do a good job of establishingWHY we fight THEM. There is no real reason why Romina may want to fight us and it sucks cause elden Ring, more than any other fromsoft game, does a pretty stellar job at establishing boss motivations EVEN in the same dlc. Shame both Romina and Rellana got none of that. Rellana could have literally had a 5 second cutscene where she just says that she knows were going to hurt Messmer and it's her duty to not let that happen. Or Have a cutscene where Romina is pissed and cursing the golden order and fights us since we have guilt by association. As for Radahn, it's pretty simple There can only be one lord. And he wants to be Elden Lord. So we gotta go.
The Bewitching Branches make people kill their own allies, so Miquella can severely brainwash people, and he does so to the Tarnished with the grab attack, so that's likely the case with the revived Radahn. Messmer hates that a Tarnished is selected to be Elden Lord since it's a new, severe betrayal and he's been badly hurt already. Also, if Messmer knows what a Tarnished is, then he likely knows what the guidance of Grace leading Tarnished to a demi-god entails, and feels that Marika is ordering the Tarnished to kill him. The seal on Messmer might also be forcing him to fight those without Grace to an extent, and once the seal is gone, there's the matter of the abyssal serpent's influence. Romina is likely a minion of the Scarlet Rot by that point and thus is directed to attack everyone. That said, I agree that the execution for Miquella wanting Radahn as his consort is very poor. If a player doesn't do *all* of Ansbach and Freyja's quest, they will be tremendously lost, and the idea feels weak even then. There needed to be more to emphasize Miquella being desperate and grabbing at straws, with characters in the setting even being surprised and disappointed in Miquella for taking such an aimless shot in the dark. It can be inferred that Miquella wasn't the knows-everything, unpressured, flawless savior that some people hoped him to be, but more needed to go into expressing how he was at his wit's end and cracking. The tragedy of his abduction ruining the Haligtree plan, something even Marika seemingly thought had merit due to her noted sorrow Gideon mentions upon the kidnapping, needed to be addressed again as well.
Messmer death was necessary for the tarnished to burn the branches of the shadow tree obstructing enir ilim. The reason we fight Radahn is kinda obvious. We aint allowing any other lords other than us, regardless of their intentions. Also the mid fight cutscene kinda heavily implies that Radahns soul is returned to that body, as per the vow. No clue as to what is going on with Romina though
I think presentation was the bigger problem. It's very odd that Radahn has such a nice-looking new body considering it was cobbled together from the corpse of Mohg. We know from the crosses that Miquella abandoned not just his flesh, but aspects of his personality and emotional range that he viewed as inhibitions, including his love and his fear and doubt. So what does he need with this clean, attractive consort? Why not make Radahn/Mohg more monstrous, and invoke more features from each of them? This would make clearer that Radahn's and Mohg's shared fate is a tragedy concocted by a newly risen god who's ruined his own ability to recognize the horror he's created. I did the NPC quests so I knew we were getting a Radahn fight in some form, but my reaction would have been better if i were shocked by the contrast between Miquella's golden majesty and the disgust and horror invoked by a monstrous "consort"
My way of thinking of it is that giving him a more restored body allowed Radahn to be more complicent before getting ultimately charmed in second phased
The resurrected Radahn isn't monstrous because his fate isn't supposed to be tragic. Miquella fulfilled his promise and Radahn is reborn as a lord, poised to conquer the Lands Between just like his hero, Godfrey. His appearance and the music that plays during his fight is bright and triumphant for a reason. The only tragedy here is literally just a headcanon.
@@blackeddeath I know what they were going for but clearly it didn't play well with people. I'm offering an alternative presentation that I think would have turned an unearned plot twist into something more substantial. Maybe Radahn THOUGHT he might be getting a new life of unending war and glory, only to be returned as a freak of nature bound to frightening new god.
I think the problem isn't that Godwyn aint the final boss. The problem is that its Radahn. My guess would have been Miquella alone or the Divine Beast God incarnation
Yeah while I can live without Godwyn, Radahn was a terrible choice. I think we should’ve fought Miquella himself without anyone aiding him. Or anything new.
When they originally announced that killing Radahn is a requirement to enter the DLC i suspected that it had something to do with him controlling the stars (and we know the stars control fate itself). My assumption was that Miquella's path to godhood was halted by Radahn and Malenia fought him for that very reason.
I’m quite certain that the Eclipse was originally going to be a major plot point in the DLC, and this is why I think we would have needed to kill Radahn to enter the DLC
@@jobbersupreme8720 The Astrologer class' gear notes that "fate" is no longer in the stars, so Radahn's seal likely affects everyone, not just his family.
So I've been really conflicted about the ending of the dlc like everyone, but most of the videos I've watched have been really unsatisfying, but this video solidifies why you're one of my favourite lore hunters. The problem with ER lore isn't so much that they bait and switched godwyn (I personally think godwyns storyline is complete: boys dead, nothings bringing him back, destined death is dead forever), but that the lore has always been the first thing cut or sacrificed for deadlines. We saw this with all the cut NPCs and storylines in the base game (Kale and the mimic tear are the two I still can't work out why they cut). From know that most of their audience don't care about lore, and the prioritisation of everything else makes sense...but as a lore addict, getting everything unravelled to find that there wasnt actually a big world ending secret at the heart is disappointing.
I'm really glad the video resonated with you! Making the video was cathartic for me since unlike a lot of critics, I actually do think Radahn being Miquella's consort could work. But that storyline was so underdeveloped, which felt particularly odd since the DLC spent almost 2 1/2 years in development. And like you said, it felt super disappointing to see that there wasn't any bombshell lore revelation In Miquella's final cut scene. Plus, since the Radahn elements were so undercooked, it also lacked the emotional impact of the endings for The Ringed City and The Old Hunters. And yeah, I'm still baffled by FromSoft dropping the Mimic Tear and Kale quests. Especially the latter! My (Elden) Lord, his voice acting was phenomenal. (Before the DLC came out, I was thinking that maybe Kale's quest was cut because they wanted to minimize the lore for the Frenzied Flame. But then the DLC added Midra and the new lore morsel that he was just one of many failed Lords of Frenzied Flame...) And thank you so much for your support and your praise!!
Maybe from software cut content so that we could get a better player experience? Like they prioritised the player rather than their ego unlike some other triple A companies lol Love your work
@@garrulousgoldmask I am in the same boat mostly, totally underwhelmed and confused by Radahn, but with some lore videos and some reddit posts I can see that it may make sense. Someone pointed out that Radahn's bow has Miquella lillies on the end. Other things pointed out, are the crucible knight and crucible things at the redmane castle hinting at connection to hornsent/shadowlands, and there are misbegotten, trolls, pumpkin head, and lion guards. Not too many places are mixed bags like this, but Haligtree is. there is one single Miquellas lily there too. We can find also an arteria leaf here as well. Some other connections are Sellia (Radahn) and Ordina (Miquella statues and entrance to Haligtree) having the same architecture. We see that there are many black knife assassins here. and we see that most of miquealla's lillies on the map are around Ranni, Mt Gelmir, and Caelid. I think he had something to do with night of black knives, probably to become a God, but also didn't want his brother Godwyn to end like that. I think there is some hints showing that Miquella needs Radahn as his consort in order to make all his goals come true. He needs this guy who can use gravity to control stars to make the eclipse happen. We have battle mage Hugues who came from Sellia, and we have multiple battlemages in the Haligtree. The descriptions of battle mages are very similar to Radahn's love for battle. Haligtree is the only location of the Giant Oracle Envoy, who heralds in a new god. Hinting at Miquella being a god beforehand. We have the prattling Pate "My Beloved" here, might be Radahn it refers to. I don't know if I am stretching, but I think there are some little hints.
I personally believe Kale's questline was cut because Hyetta's questline made it redundant. They both illustrated the same themes and both led you to the same final destination. I understand why people are disappointed that Kale missed out on all that character development (the cut lines really do resonate), but I think it was ultimately the right call on From's part. I also think it's a misconception that From cuts lore because of deadlines, or because they don't think people care. Don't forget, their approach to lore is minimalist by design, so I believe they cut anything they don't consider crucially important, even if it's finished/usable content. When I finished Fromsoft's earlier games, I felt the same sense of disappointment as you. I have learned over time that the best way to appreciate these stories is to embrace their ambiguity, and simply enjoy the sense of mystery and wonder for what it is. That's where the satisfaction lies.
@@launcelotdulake8075 Interesting perspective and I agree about growing to love the ambiguity. I think the lore ambiguity makes replay with new builds even more fun. One thing I'm interested in hearing more about and that is like a worm eating my brain, and maybe there is a good video I missed on it, is Godwyn's name. Is he the only child of Marika who's name doesn't start with M? If so, why? There's something there that, I personally, haven't found explored much. I know his Dad starts with G but typically the name starts with the first letter of the God parents name. Also, what was the Gloam Eyed Queens actual real name? Names are very important so there has to be an interesting reason Godwyn starts with G and the GEQ's name is never revealed. 🤔
My issue with the DLC is that none of it's plot was hinted at in the main game Rahdan and malenia were presented as rivals, miquella was presented as a kind person who wanted to save the lands rather than force everyone to play nice But the biggest issue is that the cinematic trailer set up questions that the DLC never bothered to answer
Well bewitching branches already hinted at Miquella’s true nature. So I fully expected him to not be what he seemed. Yeah the marketing stuff felt way better than what we actually got. A lot more about Marika and the past and seemingly made it seem like Miquella would be more involved than he was. Then there’s the thing with Miquella/Marika riding Torrent in the initial teaser that meant nothing as well as the cutscene from the gameplay trailer they removed
Miquella being evil is established in the base game, Malenia calls him the most fearsome empyrean, she was very very afraid of him (probably before being bewitched into waiting for him forever at the Haligtree). Base game already was very clear in saying Miquella was a mysterious character who explored all possibilities of faith, science and gender (similar to the player and Marika, to some extent) but somehow became too dangerous. Mohg’s obsession with Miquella and Malenia’s comment made it hard to believe Miquella was actually a victim in all that conundrum. Malenia having been somehow tricked into fighting Radahn was a common theory given how weird it was, and the DLC explains it. It was just TOO simple and direct of an ending, very unlike From Software and very boring, the laziest ending you could build from what WAS established in the base game.
@@VTWS yeah the way he was seemingly praised in everything was odd to me but after finding that bewitching branch lore I just knew that he wasn’t a good as everything made him out to be. The DLC delivering on that was one of the aspects I was happy with. My issue was with the rest of the story that aside from the awesome NPCs, like Ansbach and Thiolier, the story was so lackluster. They had so much room to do so much cool stuff and they squandered it with a repeat boss (who’s more Godfrey than he is Radahn) and an abrupt, hollow ending. It’s just over with a memory showing us something we’d already heard multiple times before. Fun fact for anyone who doesn’t know. Miquella’s model in the memory links back to the egg in Mogh’s boss room in the game files meaning it’s likely from an older version of stuff they scrapped and repurposed for the DLC.
@@melchiorsmokes I couldn't agree more with you my dear friend. Many people have given from software too much credit recently with elden ring and shadow of the erdtree, something they don't deserve in such a very positive manner or way, seeing how flawed the game is in so many areas. I can get it from the newbies that just have gotten into this genre by elden ring and some of the veterans, but for the vast majority of us this is mostly a letdown in many ways. Becoming a mainstream game really hurt this community that while it wasn't perfect before, it was more quiet and you could talk about the goodies and bads of the games in so many ways. Now you can't criticize this flawed game known as Elden ring in any form without somebody coming here and telling you :"lmao you are just a hater and need to git gud". I still love elden ring despite these glaring flaws but it is inferior and it's below other games such as lies of p, black myth wukong, stellar blade where they are actually evolving the genre in so many ways.
I think the reason people are so quick to justify and defend the game, and discredit the opinions and intelligence of anyone offering criticism, is because that’s what they have to do to be okay with how the game turned out themselves. They can probably see how flawed ER and especially its DLC are, but have had to convince themselves somehow that no, there’s a reason it all feels like this, surely it’s still the masterpiece they were expecting, it all must be intentional… And the people pointing it out, saying “hey, uh, this actually wasn’t that great after all” threaten the peace of mind they’ve had to find. It’s like why so many people get insanely patriotic in the US when this place has so clearly gone down the wrong path. If they can’t take pride in their country, what can they take pride in? They’d rather fight for an unjust cause, than accept the reality that their cause is unjust.
@@eliasfigarzon9813What flaws? This game is still a solid 9 at the very least. I would ask you take the rose tinted glasses off for a second and remember that ever since dark souls there were always people who shit on the next game. "Dark souls isn't like demon souls" "Dark souls 2 isn't dark souls" "Dark souls 3 is bullshit hard" "Bloodborne is too hard and the lore makes no sense" "Sekiro is just complete and utter shit, no builds, just r1 spam, tools are useless, bosses are lame compared to the other games, the final boss is bs" Not to mention the lore people who were a minority that got larger but lacked the ability to be civil and accused every relevant guy of stealing from another. I don't want to bust out the list of complaints but let me tell you, you've got a serious case of forgetitis.
@@BygoneT lmao kid what's wrong with you? Can't accept the facts? OK I'll tell you some of the list here. Lore is all over the place and broken. Terrible design in so many areas. Bad boss Design, the worst of the whole souls series. Side quest are impossible to track due to the open world. Open world lacks spaces where you can do something and not just stare at the landscape because it is empty. Lack of replay value even though it is an open world game. Bad leveling system for the dlc. Bosses from other games that aren't souls are here. Looking at you malenia. So many reused bosses and enemies. They need learn from black myth wukong here. The camera is the worst here. So many repeated bosses here. Again, they need to look at black myth wukong here. Weird hit boxes in many areas. And the list goes on, now feel free to attack me with your ideas about how wrong am I in everything I say here.
@@eliasfigarzon9813 What are you even saying "kid" for? Isn't there a guy right above my comment saying things about getting defensive and insulting others? Pointing out you're forgetting things isn't an insult. What are some examples of all over the place lore? Terrible design is subjective, next. Loved every single area. Bad boss design is subjective, next. Radahn is my favourite boss of the DLC, top 3 bosses of the entire game followed by Malenia who I died to over 1000 times. The only gripe I have about a boss in this DLC is reusing the lion but that's lore justified. Side quests being impossible to track was the same in the base game, a minor issue if you explore like a maniac like I do, but creating quests like it's King's Field was their idea. It does feel amazing to complete them without using any help, which is entirely possible is part of the intent. Sometimes even on ps5 you can miss NPCs taking time to load in. But this depends on the quest. Manus metyr quests are right there, Freya is easy, Ansbach too, Thiollier was the only annoying one along with Moore but once you know where to go it's all right. The dragon priestess is trivially easy, not to mention Igon. This point is void of any reason, what does "do something other than stare into empty space" even mean? There are enemies to fight, castles to assault, tears to get from the giant walking cauldrons of doom, paintings to solve, items to find, etc. Void point, genuinely feels random to see it here, it's like you stopped at the first opening of the DLC and went no further. Nah lack of replay value is insane. Actually out of this world, there is legitimately a tear that unlocks Sekiro in ER and you're telling me that's not worth several playthroughs? I will replay this to death. The aesthetics variety in this DLC is huge, i love every boss, adds tons of materials and cool weapons, idk what you're on about. The leveling system is an issue because of what? Collecting it? You barely need 12 to be efficient. I don't mind it at all. I don't think it's great barring the big numbers of damage you'd never get to see otherwise. Not great not bad to me. But it does solve the fundamental problem of people coming in over leveled for their first experiences and shitting on it because they're OP. If that's the only intent then it's a good system. Bad bosses from other games? Holy still going on about that thing. It's like the people who still say poise is off in ds3. Malenia is amazing and I will not stand for this slander. All of her moves can be dealt with, not a single one is impossible to counter in some way. Fighting her is like dancing, I always leave a character in front of her and PCRadahn if I want to fight them to pass 30 minutes and never beat them just to try it with another weapon. I rarely had camera problems. Don't know what to tell you. Yeah there are a couple repeated bosses, so? Oh no... I don't receivemental damage from it. Godefroy is not my favourite boss, but he doesn't diminish my experience, to make a point. Asset reuse is a standard in videogames, legit doesn't matter when the map is bigger and better than promised, with all the spells and weapons added, tears, AoW, etc. This DLC is as big as a full game but at reasonable price. Idk about weird hitboxes but I played not too long ago for the first time Maybe they were fixed. Haven't played BMW but will eventually get to it. if you like it good for you, but in no way does it mean anything that you prefer their approach.
My biggest problem with this ending is that it makes the dlc feel without purpose, think of the artorias dlc and how it was about giving artorias a dignified end and create the very legend we've been hearing about all game, or the ringed city and from it a new gentle world can now be born, or the old hunters and how we break the curse by freeing the orphan and give doll and gehrman some peace, I get none of that from sote, the land and its people reserve no conclusion, the shadow tree remains a withered reminder of their abandonment, you don't get to climb the divine steps, you don't know how Messmer ties to any of this, you're not even given a choice to side with miquella Another thing I wanna point out is the visual representation of the narrative and how jarring it feels, one of the reasons why radagon works so well is because he's a god of gold in a game all about the brilliance and strength of gold, sote is all about light and dark, life and death and yet the final boss uses gravity and blood magic alongside light for some reason?
Fantastic points! Like you said, FromSoft is usually so good at conveying an emotional response through its lore and its environments and it just feels completely squandered with Promised Consort Radahn. And I really like your point about the visual representation. Now that you mention it, it does feel very bizarre that the final boss in a DLC called “Shadow of the Erdtree” that takes place underneath the Scadutree doesn't incorporate shadows/the dark at all.
I feel that the story of the DLC was the cycle of violence and how the Land of Shadow had no grand answers for people like Miquella, along with further devastation from Marika's scars and decisions. The only goal Marika ultimately seems to have is killing the Elden Beast, apparently from a sense of betrayal, and she notably does not care about what transpires to accomplish this, even if everyone is harmed in the process. Now, with that said, the DLC's story could have emphasized and fleshed out this point *far better* than it did. More characters needed to remark on Miquella's desperation. A line or two needed to address the Cleansing Chamber and how it seemingly burns away Empyreans' "flaws", thus making Miquella's resulting state likely no better than Marika. The memory after the final battle needed to address exactly how Miquella sought to make a gentler world in the past, so as to emphasize the tragedy of him choosing something utterly corrupt (constantly oppressing people with his powers) or something so impractically naive as to never work in the setting. Also, unrelated to Miquella, the DLC needed to explain what in the world the Scadutree is. Does it automatically exist as a requirement to having the Erdtree? If so, why? Did Marika split her initial tree, be it created or inherited as a god, into separate trees, akin to, say, the nameless Namekian and Piccolo in Dragon Ball? Why is the Scadutree seemingly kicking its own butt by forcing sap out? Are the people of the Land of Shadow forcing the Scadutree to provide blessings via the power of sheer resentment? If so, why didn't the same happen to the Erdtree when it stopped providing regular blessings? Some major things feel like they're lacking the standard level of explanation quality, or even implication quality, that they regularly have in From Software's works, even the main game of Elden Ring.
@@garrulousgoldmask Miquella brings a lot of light at least, and the Gate of Divinity speaks to figuratively dark deeds to give Miquella his power. Either way, I feel the Scadutree needed more answered about it in general.
I always thought we were gonna fight Malenia again, as her true form of godess of rot, giving the clues in her fight (cut content, no "demigod felled" at the end etc...), I even think that they replaced her with Romina... So strange Plus, the last words of the DLC should have been those of Sir Ansbach : "become a lord, not for gods, but for men"
I religiously consumed every lore video and writing during the base game. The moment I saw Radahn was the final boss for the DLC, I completely closed off to the lore, haven't watched a single lore video about the DLC (besides this one, this late). It is just so uninteresting to make a base game early boss that we already killed as the final DLC boss, with the same weapons, same look, same annoying big figure. Remember, this is the company that gave us Sister Friede for a DLC ...
In fairness, Miquella realives them, so that doesn't matter. No, the problem with Godwyn is he's actually still able to think and act, to some degree, and they opted to basically just leave that as a glorified easter egg.
Honestly as someone who puts elden ring as one of his favourites gane ever, i was quite disappointed with the lore of the dlc. I think that one of the best things that the base game did was how they set up the characters before you fight them, you get to know every demigod in some capacity before you fight them, and then when you finally fight them the cutscene and dialogue of the fight put the icing on the cake and make the boss feel like actually well written characters. The characters were also all connected to each other in some way and that added depth to the world, it made it feel more believable. This is also why The Old Hunters is one of my favourite pieces of content, it checks all the marks on how to make the bosses feel more than just video game enemies. The dlc completely regresses on this philosophy and i just find that to be very disappointing. The only characters that have proper build up to them are Messmer, Bayle, Midra and Miquella, but like this video says Miquella's story is confusing, and all of these characters are completely unrelated to each other. Every other boss is this same exact thing but worse, Romina, Rellana, the avatar, Gaius ecc just feel like normal enemies in a video game without any kind of motivation to fight you, the lore from their item descriptions is cool, but they simply lack anything else to feel more than random encounters, they just pale in comparison to any other character roster from any of their most recent games, and a massive downgrade to base game elden ring which is a shame because the dlcs generally tend to be better.
I agree with this so much! The DLC helped me understand a lot of why I really like the base game. Take a character like Godrick. If he was just, in a room with no buildup, he'd be pretty uninteresting. But Stormveil's ornate golden trimmings contrasted with the decay of the castle do such a good job at characterising him. Then when you get to him, he demands your respect despite his sickly, mangled appearance. Everyone likes to point out how Godrick is pathetic, and while he is, FromSoft do a great job at making him feel like a menace. He's a deluded maniac who's attained unfathomable strength, it really compels you to want to defeat him, aside from just ticking off the demigod murder list. I never got that feeling with the DLC, aside from with Messmer (and Bayle and Midra to a lesser extent)
That is a very important point to make. Why do the bosses in SotE fight us? Don't they want to rejoin the Golden Order? Does anything we do affect the state of the Lands of Shadow after we beat Miquedahn? I have no clue, this doesn't seem to affect the main story of the Lands Between, nor the story of the Lands of Shadow...
Ludwig isn't connected to Maria outside of both being hunters, nor does he have anything to do with the living failures. But if we go by thst logic, we can't condemn the dlc bosses for "having no connection" since all of them except for Midra and Bayle were screwed over by Marika in some way. And the demon princes have jack all to do with Midir and Halflight. And Gael doesn't have any connection to any of the bosses outside of association of all of them being subject under Gwyn's rule at some point but that can be said for a lot of bosses. Kalameet isn't even relevant to the plot of his dlc. The only narrative purpose he serves is to give Gough something to do outside of exposition.
@@thesnatcher3616 Ludwig is connected to the healing church, therefore being connected to laurence, Maria is connected to all the bosses past ludwig and she has a whole area to build her up. The other point you made is just a strawman argument. I never said anything about the ringed city, and it doesn't matter anyway because the scope of that dlc is completely different. My major point was about how much worse the characters in the dlc were compared to base game elden ring and your counter argument is "uhhhm, kalameet is not a major part of the dark souls dlc"
"You fight Fia's onlyfans subscribers" lol. I agree 100%. GOATwyn should have been somewhere in the DLC. I mean they had to know people expected that...For Marika's sake the Night of the black knives is the biggest mystery in Elden Ring. Got nothing from that at all in the dlc.
Especially considering the fact that this may be the last piece of ER content ever, the narrative problems extend to the entire game. There are things like the Nox and Marika, the Gloam-eyed queen (and Melina?), Roderika and spirit tuning, etc. that are just never brought up again. It really feels like things being pulled out of thin air rather than From's signature lore diving.
The DLC did no worldbuilding, it just told a very straightforward story. Aside from the Hornsent which are also very very straightforward. Maybe they developed the DLC parallel to the main game in some way and that is why they designed the DLC to not have anything too connected/relevant to the main game?
@@VTWS the world building part that works in the DLC imo is the jar saints and what they imply about Marika. That part is super interesting and the only thing I think would've made it stronger is a tiny hint at how Radagon came to be. But otherwise it was interesting. That includes Messmer, the Fingers, Metyr, what's implied with the Greater Will, etc. Miquella, Radahn and St. Trina (including the Putrescent Knight) is where the bulk of the weakness is. I saw someone speculate that there might've been two DLC at some point (Marika lore and Miquella story) and I get why it feels that way, because there is a sharp contrast in depth and complexity between the two elements.
It's a real shame how this all panned out in its execution. Upon revisiting the DLC, it's really quite brilliant how Radahn's reappearance brings full-circle all these different motifs seen throughout the DLC, such as the divine horned warrior, the dual swords that look like horns, the soul of a lion inhabiting a sculpted vessel, the union of god and lord into a single divine entity, et cetera. Not only do I now accept Radahn as the promised consort, but I understand that it really could not have been anyone BUT Radahn as the final boss. However, the handling of this whole situation in terms of the plot was not ideal, and I don't know of a single person whose first impression of Radahn's reappearance was a good one. I could not possibly have better prepared myself for the lore of this DLC, and even I was utterly blindsided by the revelation, and not in a good way. It really came off like contrived fanfiction. I remember first watching the cutscene, and my only thought at the time was, "the internet is going to be arguing about this moment for years to come." Like all Fromsoft stories, it makes much more sense on subsequent replays, but sadly, most people only play these games once. I just wish From could've handled this with a bit more finesse, and made a less jarring first impression of it.
@@launcelotdulake8075 The more I think about the Miquella/Radahn connection, the less sense it makes. You start thinking about what characters are doing in the base game and the shattering war and why, and I can’t understand any of it, some of it feels outright incoherent.
finally someome who doesnt just go 'hur the dlc was perfect' and has some good narrative critique. ive BEEN saying that if youre gonna do the weird incestsquared twin princes callback, at least make it make sense. i was expecting or at least hoping for godwyn, or even messmer as miq's consort. so when radahn showed up it was just bizarre. and the way they try to pull off the callback is kinda lame.
Nobody says that. If anything it's community consensus that the lore is messed up/missed potential, etc. As we see in a lot of comment sections in videos of people either talking about the lore or making memes about it.
@neocores Why would something need to be defended if everyone liked it. I assume you meant praise. And just because some people defend the lore or the dlc as a whole or whatever, doesn't mean they think it was perfect. I sure as hell don't. If anything I see that sort of high caliber praise way more for past from dlcs like Ringed City and the Old Hunters by the community.
The more I know about ER lore, more meaningless it's world become. It's just bloat to justify cool bosses and areas. Game first, story latter, as Miyazaki Said. This way of world building worked on small scale, ds, bb... But it does not work in a complex world with complex lore and complex relationships and complex everything. Elden Ring is supposed to be that, but if everything is meaningless and created at time, it's just filler, bloat, the culmination of the popfication of a game genre about the "Soul".
@@janogabor7697 not really. as this video says, it's woefully unexplained, lack of buildup and focuses Miquella's story on Radahn rather than being about himself or his connections to other demigods from the base game.
@@atomskthepirateking2776 I disagree with all of that. Miquellas story is a reflection of Marika. What we learn of Marika is the in lore reason why we must stop Miquella. Also Radahn is built up. I feel like people just ignore most of the things this dlc says, because it's not what they wanted to hear
@janogabor7697 A poorly written reflection and a cheap parallel because they couldn't write anything more interesting. Instead we get a miquella who lost all his smarts from the base game in favor of crying about his consort and wanting to be a God. Marika is so much more meaningful and tragic (even before the dlc) its an insult to even compare the two. Bad writing ruined the lore not Godwyn hype. Take godwyn out of the equation and the dlc lore still falls flat, no wonder they had to do last minute justifications for a radahn shoehorn. Just look at Gaius, a clearly rushed character to make Radahn look good. Lazily slapped together trash.
I keep thinking that the best outcome is always something new and unexpected for a final boss on a DLC, but if FS really wanted to lean on fanservice, they should have gone all out. Not taking into account resources and time, it would have been cool if the eventual consort was a result of your actions. Maybe doing Frerya's quests ends up with Radahn being the Promised Consort and doing something like St. Trina's quest makes Malenia the Consort, tapping into the rivalry between the two again. All of this from a narrative POV of course. Maybe doing neither gives you a regular, new and innovative boss. Giving you options with consequences based on what you want.
I definitely like the idea of Miquella's consort changing! Now that I think of it, I don't think FromSoft has really done something like that before for a boss fight so even if it failed, it would have gotten points for originality.
There was a comment on r/eldenringloretalk that stuck with me: Loretubers don't want to poke too much into radahn and miquella, the literal climax of the DLC, bc it's such a sore topic and a source of so much frustration among lore enthusiasts. Critiquing it risks unveiling the mask of elden ring's "untouchable story" that loretubers such as vaatividya rely on to keep viewers engaged and watching. So seeing you be blunt about your opinion on Radahn was very cathartic, and for the record, yes I agree with you.
To be fair, I don't think some of the loretubers like Vaati or Misschalice act like ER has a perfect story (unless one of them said something to that effect that I haven't seen). I think they just try to make sense of the story with what they're given.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable for content creators to avoid controversial topics out of self-preservation. If anything that’s more indicative of a flaw in the game in question and/or its fanbase than a flaw in the creators.
It’s not that, they probably WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT but can’t find anything interesting to say. Because it’s a very boring straightforward plot that leaves no room for cool theories
@@fatman157 I don't know about now but Vaati absolutely sugar coated Dark Souls 2 before that game came out since he was working with Bandai. Now DS2 is actually my favorite souls game but Vaati absolutely shilled back then
Honestly the dlc messed up the entire established timeline and created this whole Miquella and Radahn thing out of nothing. Miquella suddenly doesn’t care about his dear sister. Suddenly he didn’t really need to cocoon himself up, he didn’t really care for his Haligtree. All of a sudden he’s determined to become a god and Radahn was to be his consort the whole time. “No one saw it coming.” How does he abandon his body (the one we touch to go to the dlc) to go to the Land of Shadow and still manage to leave “his flesh” behind btw? Whose body is the one in the cocoon then? No one will ever know lol Also, out of the blue my guy Miquella isn’t even interested in his Eclipse Ritual anymore; he doesn’t care about Godwyn who - I might add - is the only character who he ever called “lord brother.” “As a god he can cure his sister” not even Marika could do that and he can because reasons? “But Malenia awaited his return, ‘his promise’ she says” again: how does godhood cure her? Divine needles? He already made them. We can even use one! And please, stop with the Velka character type. People are saying the craziest things about the Gloam Eyed Queen. Just show her lol Velka’s rapier = Blackflame Greatsword: a goddess is so badass she wanted to kill gods, she gets unalived and all that remains are scraps of lore. What’s up with this trope, Miyazaki? Fromsoftware can make mistakes and this is one of them, no issues about it but still. If the dlc needed more time to conclude and finish, then take more time. It’s fine! You’ve been doing this since DS1: you start a project, you run out of time, you ship the game anyway. As if the Mountaintops of the Giants was to be this plain and empty bc lore. As if you didn’t want to let players fight the Elden Beast with Torrent bc lore, nah, you simply didn’t have the time to implement it as a feature. And what do you know, you fixed it! Fix your game, it’s fine, everyone makes mistakes lol
Great comment. Everyone acts like either FromSoft never makes mistakes and craft everything beautifully, or they're losing their minds and the DLC ruined the whole game. It's fine to mess up things as long as you learn from them (and in case they can be fixed, then fix them). No biggie.
He did care about the Haligtree, though. The only reason he isn't there right now is because he was kidnapped. I know there's a theory that he got himself abducted on purpose, but there's no real evidence of this. Plus, it doesn't make sense for all the reasons you outlined. Why do you think he doesn't care about Malenia? He doesn't mention her at all except to praise her deeds.
I kind of get your points, and even agree to some extent, but I think this whole "Miquella suddenly didn't care about anything" came out of nowhere and there's not real base for that argument. He wanting to become a God doesn't mean that he forgot about Malenia or the Haligtree. I don't know how anyone came to that conclusion. If anything, we will never truly know what was he going to do since he died 5 minutes after achieving godhood. What we know is that he couldn't cure Malenia with the tools he had at the moment. Malenia's rot was halted with the needles, but that wasn't enough to save her in the long run or even to avoid the spreading of rot through the Haligtree, which is why I think his metamorphosis plan wasn't going to work either. What was left for him to do? Probably his last resort was to follow the path of the Empyrean a try to become a god through the only method that was proven to work: the divine gate. From Malenia's dialogue, I think it's possible to infer that Miquella gave her some parting words before he left the Haligtree, promising to reunite with her after he achieved Godhood. Now, you think because Marika or the GO couldn't do anything to cure Malenia, it means that Miquella couldn't do it either, but the thing is that he actually invented something that helped Malenia more than anything: the unalloyed gold, and he created it without being a god and with the limitations imposed by his own curse. How much wouldn't he be able to do with the full power of godhood, free from his curse? Or a least that's how I think he reasoned his plan.
To be fair, doesn't the game say that the eclipse plan FAILED? But then again a dlc where Miquella tries again would have been cool as hell and would have fleshed out two underdeveloped characters at once and would have had a sick eclipse backdrop that would have also served as a nice nod to Ds3, although again, the game makes it pretty clear Godwyn's soul was gone. And I'm not sure how you can really "revive" his BODY since it's sort of integrated into the lands between itself. Dlc suffers enough from weird transformations anyway(miquella in the real world vs shadow realm). If from used Godwyn in some way, I bet we would have got people complaining about how it contradicts what was set up in the base game and how using his body/soul makes zero sense and begs the question on why Ranni couldn't get her own body back. Elden ring lore was controversial even before the dlc launched after all with the likes of Godefroy and all that. Not saying they shouldn't have done this btw. Just trying to add a bit more nuance here. But I do agree this dlc needed more time in the oven. Hopefully they can give it more updates to add more context(cutscenes, updated lines and desriptions) despite them saying they won't make more dlcs. Best case scenario is that all of this ages like milk. I hate Velka characters too
I get the vibe that the DLC is more aout Marikas story than it was Miquella. Miquellas antics felt more like a sidequest running parallel to us learning more about Marikas origin story.
Yeah, even an item noting Miquella's disappointment with the viciousness that war naturally entails, and that the Redmanes thus regularly do, would have been appreciated. Miquella seems to have resorted to a feeling he had when he was especially young and naive, and something should have addressed that he had to ignore his better judgment, and not just the broad aspect of him removing chunks of his soul.
This DLC proved to me that fromsoft themselves don't know the story of elden ring. I don't think they know what they're doing or trying to tell, and it's very clear that the game was too big for their narrative style.
There is a novels worth of lore that George RR Martin wrote for this game's creation pertaining to Miquella and all of these other Gods and their motivations that we will almost certainly never see and that just cements the narrative disappointment of this dlc for me. I remember someone actually spoiled "young Radahn" as a boss in this dlc for me at work and I was actually quite excited bc I assumed that he was gonna be the hidden, optional boss and I was so shook when I figured out he was actually the last mainline boss of the dlc
GRRM wrote the backstory. So the story in the game and all the side quests is from/miyazaki. I think honestly that might have been the issue, having the backstory written by GRRM and the current story by M creates so much dissonance. GRRM is so good at writing “B” plots who have fully fleshed arcs, you can feel that with all the schemes so many of the demi gods are pulling only for Miyazaki to cut them all short. In game you can just cut out Mt Gelmir and Rykard and nothing changes while the lore hints at his involvement with Ranni.
Yeah... I don't really like how ambiguous everything is about Radahn and Miquella. I don't like the nagging feeling of "am I the bad guy for fighting him? Or was I a hero for stopping a brainwashed dictatorship?" Like.... For once, just tell me what my role was. Either way, I feel bad for Miquella. Either reading makes him a tragic figure. A fallen hero who abandoned too much of himself. Thus, repeating the same mistakes his mother did.... Yay for generational trauma! Or... a hero struck down by a greedy monster, who selfishly wanted to be the only one to sit upon the Elden Throne. (Or go to space with their new wife.) Again, it would have been nice to just KNOW what it was I did.
The dlc made the timeline more confusing and didn't answer much from the base game, godwyn even though it is said by rogier that his death was the reason for the shattering, has very little information about him on the base game We just know that he defeated fortissax and died That's it Its very strange for a caracther that should be one of the most important
I just want Radahn to speak like at all. I don't even think he grunts. I've seen people say that he's charmed and that's why he doesn't have a personality, but Mohg was charmed and he has a huge amount of personality.
Since we never see Radahn agree to the vow i think he never vowed to be Miquella's champion. It was all one sided on Miquella's part; which makes sense why he sent Malenia after him.
I think you nailed it in the head when you mentioned “setup and payoff” and how they seemingly ignored such a simple & important storytelling device in the DLC. There was some things that were set up in the base game that didn’t pay off in the DLC. At the same time, there were things that were never set up coming out of nowhere when the DLC dropped. I used to love and speculate about the lore in ER, but because I was so disappointed with the DLC lore inconsistencies and its ending, I started to not care about the story. (Why be invested in the world of Elden Ring if the lore and story do not matter all that much?) I still enjoyed the DLC to an extent, but I think it’s a step down compared to the base game. (imo, base game is 9/10, while the DLC is an 8/10) Great video, btw.
You brought up two major issues I myself had with the DLC: 1) It should have been Godwyn instead of Radahn. Miquella was shown in the base game to look up to Godwyn, and was trying multiple ways to help him. So going to the Land of Death to resurrect Godwyn's spirit into a consort would fit Miquella's motivations like a glove; he gets his big bro back, and he succeeds his mother as the new god. Two birds, one stone. Instead, we were robbed of a boss fight with possibly the strongest of the demigods. 2) The memory we find after beating the final boss is a once in a game lore opportunity. It's straight from Miquella's fading consciousness, so we know it's most likely going to be from the past we've never seen as a tarnished, and mostly likely trustworthy as a primary source. It could have shown us Miquella's naked motivations, or an interaction with another character that completely changes our perspective, or even filled in so many different parts of the lore that desperately need elaborating. Instead, we get shown nothing new. What a waste. Speaking strictly from a lore perspective, I find the DLC a disappointment. It did a lot of good work with Marika, but it ignored a lot of things it probably shouldn't have, and even seemed to retcon some things.
If FromSoft didn't want to put in the work for Promised Consort Radahn, then I definitely agree that Godwyn would have been more satisfying on all levels. And that's a great point about the memory being such a unique lore opportunity! In the base game, we had something a bit similar with Melina hearing the spoken echoes of Marika (though I do think some of them may have been spoken by Radagon). But even that is just secondhand and not a complete cutscene. The closest I can think of to directly seeing a memory from another character's POV is in Bloodborne with Master Willem and Laurence. And that scene is absolutely iconic and reveals one of the most important events in the history of Yharnam.
@Elden-Bear not even close there's multiple set ups for godwyn to come back that wouldn't mess with the base game, with how loose the magic system it would be easy.
@Elden-Bear Retcon what? The eclipse and now the gate of divinity are perfect possibilities for Godwyns revival. "But the eclipse failed" that's what the land of shadow is for, it's a separate physical place so the writers can justify anything there that doesn't mess with the base game. "But his souls is dead" Only frenzy flame (messmers flame too?) is stated to completely destroy, so his soul can still be out there or whatever. Maybe in the spirit world or some other afterlife mentioned. I don't even care for godwyn at this point, but to write off possibilities as if ER's world systems is so rigid and stable is ridiculous.
So Miquella's plan was to get kidnapped, get Mogh under his control, fkn die, have his sister go for Radahn, have her kill Radahn(which failed btw we had to do it), then for someone to kill Mogh???, to then ressurect Radahn through Mogh which would mean he had to follow the accord, then to have his called champions burn the shadow, and then ascend. That plan is so bad xD, like it can fail so easily. Why didn't he just ascended with Mogh and trick him to abandon formless mother xd, or do so with his sister, if he wanted Radahn cause he was strong but then had his sister go after him to kill him, wouldn't that make his sister stronger than Radahn xd. And then Godwyn why do so much for him if you gonna abondon him, what with eclipse what with the sword dedicated to him, RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH.
I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective. He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily. No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready. He just needs someone to kill Radahn which people are trying to do. He charmed Radahn so he doesn't need him to follow the vow. He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood. He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq. They seem to have emerged after Miq passed through. Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line, he was so crushed by his mother abandoning him he sided with Miq and put the thorns as a way to defend him.
Mogh kidnapping him is not part of the plan IMHO by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land. Also there’s a lof of shon that touches is needed for her charm to works. It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. He either accept he won’t become god or concoct a new plan. Remember that the stories happened for thousands of years and not a human lifetime
@@yudistiraliem135 "by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land. " I mean I don't think they can get to Shadowlands, a god arisen there while they were missing ? "It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. " To be honest I think that could be true, he was asleep so he couldn't control Mogh but after he was taken then he could. The problem with that is, he already sent his sister to kill Radahn indicating that he already planned to have him as his Lord, but to ressurect him he would require a demigod's body, and I don't think he had a spare in his fridge xd
@@specialnewb9821 "I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective." Yeah that makes sense kind of weird to see Malenia being used as a pawn though.. "He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily." Yeah I can see that, but he ascended before Radahn was ressurected. Miq returened and was like: oh hi bro glad to see you, so he could have done the same thing, also Radahn had Mogh's body and he used blood magic so it's not like Radahn is clean of outer god influance xd. "No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready." Why he didn't do it then xD (I know game reasons but after we kill Radahn, Mogh should be there dead by your logic) Also I am not sure how far the influance extends to, we see soldiers exploding in his name so I guess that's possible?? "He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood." I mean there is one NPC who said that they failed at bringing eclipse but it could have happened in Shadowlands land of the dead xd, it would be nice if the game actually said something about Miq actually failing in the DLC to bring Godwyn. Eclipse is said to keep the destined death away so just omitting it is sad, I mean it's weird that so many people believe it exists and has it's influance while it doesn't. "He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq." We were called to Shadowlands to go to find Miquella why would he do that if he didn't need us? Though you are right "Kind Miquella is bound for the tower of shadow. If we are to reach him" it doesn't say that Miquella can't go through the shadows so I am more on your side here though it doesn't say that he already crossed it, it says that he is still bound to it. "Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line" well it was cut and the Messmer that we find is pro Marika
I was so disappointed with Radahn being the final boss, I wanted something more centered around Miquella, maybe fighting him alone, but Miquella only ever talks about Radahn and hasn't much personality of his own. Doesn't help that we didn't meet Miquella prior to this final and only encounter, which makes him feel even more underdeveloped and disappointing. The trailer even "promised" the scene with Miquella lifting the veil and set expectations of interacting with him more that weren't fulfilled. Base game Miquella felt very different to this Miquella we got in the DLC and I''m not impressed. He makes me feel pretty much nothing, regardless of how you want to interpret him, he doesn't feel evil enough nor does he feel kind enough. "Show, don't tell" isn't really to be found, there is only tell about him from other characters "how kindly he is" or that "he is a monster" but so little show if at all. He just does his apathetic little speech and that's it.
but tha't like his thing, he doesn't care about asnyone (except maybe radanh, godwyn) and everyone is just apawn. remember everything we know about him is told by others giving their take, not the truth.
@@Sercroc He does care about the whole world in a way, why else is he talking about an age of compassion? But even when you see him as just a cold puppeteer, there is so little to him in this DLC (except other people talking about him) that it still doesn't work presentation wise. There is just so little there to have any reaction to it at all. Compare this to Ranni: We have so much dialogue with her, a whole involved questline etc but the only thing we get from a DLC centered around Miquella is his simp followers but not him.
Hard disagree that PCR fits the lore. You really have to shoehorn him in, and it feels like a major retcon. It's incredible that they found a way to miss the landing so completely their best game yet. I think the most disappointing part is how the ending destroys the masterfully crafted character of Miquela. They were supposed to be playing 5D chess, but instead they just wanted to be a boss we already defeated. Miquela was somehow not smart enough to realize that throwing away all that made them who they are wasn't going to make the world better, and then it's just another power play like the other demigods. All that, and the boss fight itself isn't even fun to play.
Counterpoint. I feel miquella choosing radahn serves as a form of metanarrative, that fromsoft is quite well known for. Heres my take. You're supposed to feel dissapointed and betrayed by the conclusion and plot of the dlc, because that's how your character should feel after your character learns everything they could about miquella in the base game. The only evidence that miquella might have a more evil and selfish gaol is a single item description (bewitching branch) and an offhand comment from the least trustworthy npc (the all knowing) in the game. All the adverisment, all the definitive lore and the music itself sets miquella up to be the hero of the story because the game is bewitching you, just like how miquella bewitches everyone around him. Him shattering his greatrune and the bewitchment serves to give you the same feeling your character would be feeling. First confusion, (what just happened?) but a new sense of freedom to actually get to the bottom of what miquellas motives really are. Say if narratively fromsoft chose godwyn or malenia as the chosen consort, the metanarrative of you feeling betrayed would no longer apply because it would show that miquella really IS valiant and cares about his sister/ brother because making one of them his consort would imply he was trying to cure them all the way to the very end. Him abandoning them entirely is a complete betrayal not only to them, but to you, the player who really believed that he was actually committed to being the only good and righteous demigod. Tl;dr its just very subtle metanarrative that is supposed to make you feel betrayed.
Speaking about the canon answer, neither of them work as Miquella's lord because Godwyn is soulless, and Malenia is an empyrean - like Mick, Ranni, Melina and Messmer - she's alive as well; if you side with Millicent and interact with Malenia's flower you'll recieve a Somber Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone and Miquella’s Needle.
I love that idea! From a technical and scripting standpoint, I could see how it could be difficult to have characters in the base game react to the DLC. But FromSoft could have easily gotten around this by giving us a wholly new character in the Land of Shadow: Miriel's twin Muriel. They could have even made him look like an Orthodox Patriarch as a counterpart to the Turtle Pope.
@@JabronyJoenZ you just reminded me how frustrated I was that Gideon and Melina have literally fucking nothing to say about anything that happens in the dlc. I get it might be hard because you would have to call the actors back in, maybe it wasn't even possible to do so, maybe the actors wouldn't agree to (although they had 2 years at least, so...) It just feels so immersion breaking and weird. Gideon tells us all about the demigods, and is searching for the great runes, but he has NOTHING to say about the land of shadow, the scadutree, Messmer, or Miquella becoming a literal god? It really cements the dlc having zero connection to the base game, it feels like it doesn't even exist when you're in the base game. I would have loved to hear him explain some stuff to me I guess the argument would be that Gideon is "canonically" supposed to be dead at that point, and Melina dead or gone. It just feels strange
You said pretty much everything I think. And yes, I wasn't expecting Godwyn's either, even witht he DLC screaming for Godwyn in all it's death themes. Tbh, I don't even see Godwyn defying the status quo of the order of his mother to the point of making such a vow with Miquella and, yes, he could be charmed, but it goes against a vow like Marika and Godfrey did for example - and the whole boss is meant to "honor" Godfrey with his fanboy, Radahn. And not expecting Godwyn, I surely wasn't expecting Radahn. I just didn't want to see that guy AGAIN at all with an excuse made out of thin air. And, honestly, every time someone tries to justify it with some previous connection, it all feels like looking for patterns in randomness.
I do find it weird that so many players hung on to Godwyn as an active entity in the game. Godwyn's personal story is already over by the time the game starts, always has been. As far as connections between Radahn and Miquella in the base game, take a closer look at Radahn's gear. He has a gold-threaded Haligtree emblem on his cape, and the ornaments on the ends of his bow are shaped exactly like a Miquella's Lily. I do agree with you that the mystery of who is Miquella's consort should have been more upfront, as a leading question within the main game.
I don't think that's a Haligtree emblem on Radahn's cape. Spiral designs are present on the Tree Sentinels' capes, Leyndell's war banners, Godrick's cloak he removes in his cutscene, etc. The ornaments at the ends of the Lion Greatbow resemble lion manes and tails in Elden Ring's heraldry, both in association with the golden lineage and with the depictions on the Banished Knight Shield and banners.
I was expecting to fight Miquella in his full god form after Radahn as the actual last boss. Similarly to Elden Beast after Radagon. Was disappointed to find out that wasn’t the case.
I believe that Radahn being final boss is perfect: After all, it completely disillusions us with the concept of godhood and mortals becoming gods. It shows nakedly the ways that those with power do disgusting things and expect glory for it.
I don’t want characters who are cheap ciphers for a point, I want characters who have a coherent set of motivations and relationships. If From can’t deliver that they are failing at basic storytelling.
@@societyman6591 sorry man you picked the people who are renowned for literally bringing on archaeologists as consults for what information should be lost or distorted and how because they aren't interested in telling simple, straight forward narratives that you get to know everything about
@@ShadaOfAllThings Can you please ask some of these archaeologists how Miquella abandoned his flesh twice? Or is From Software too sophisticated for their environmental storytelling to have basic coherence on that level too?
@@societyman6591 Sorry you are too dense to realize that what I was getting at is that a detail like two star children of the golden order being potential brotherfuckers, or whatever exactly happened between them, was never going to get outside the royal palaces when it was a key feature of them that you were sworn to secrecy and even silence if you were allowed into anywhere people might overhear conversation like that.
I feel that, when you look at events prior, it becomes painfully obvious that Radahn isnt allied with Miquella by the time of the Shattering War. Sure, he may have made the vow when they were younger, but, for one reason or another, he broke it off. As for Godwyn...well, considering that he's tied to a questline that can easily be messed up and locked out, it makes sense that he's bsrely involved in the dlc.
My theory is that it was never supposed to be Radahn but someone high up shipped them together so hard they managed to bewitch others into making it canon. Also the words " re-used assets" probably helped a lot.
@@luckyowl6432 Are you referring to Consort Radahn as being the re-used asset? Bc he is completely different from the Starscourge in every significant way aside from lore
@@luckyowl6432 Miyazaki. He's gone on record stating Radahn is his favorite character in the game and wanted to use him again. Though I don't like you framing it as a shipping thing. Radahn and Miquella is made very clear to be the wrong thing and very disturbing, not a genuine ship of the two characters.
The end of the dlc made me so disappointed that I just stopped watching lore videos for a while, thinking like if all those mysteries and speculations lead only to nowhere or this, i'm just wasting my time
Same bro, it put such a bad taste in my mouth I just dropped the game for a while. I still like the game but I have no desire to replay the dlc like how I replayed the base game.
@@dvdivine1962 I agree, tarnished archaeologist has the power to hook me and the last thing I know, I've been lured into watching half an hour of mesopotamian history
I think the reason from software didnt explicitly explain consort radahn's willingness vs coersion is on purpose. Probably to get us to wonder if he consented to this or not - like tou said it changes ghe players perspective of the entire story drastically with either conclusion 🎉 hope this makes sense it is a very from software thing to do.
And this ending also lessens the meaning behind the war of the shattering. I wonder how much Miyazaki had to do with this or wzs this like a group think ending?
I feel like they were setting up something bigger with Miquella and St. Trina too, but looking back, they messed up somewhere. Cutting St. Trina’s original quest was a big misstep and could’ve set her up properly and make her even sadder. The fact that they reused Gloam Knight/Gloam assets for Trina’s area doesn’t sit right with me. Also baiting us with the cutscene and having us think we’ll side with Miquella is a horrible choice by the marketing team -_- I’d also like to think the statue is Godwyn with the twins. I like that Miquella respected him. Miquella having no ending makes me regret buying the DLC collectors edition, but I got a Messmer statue out of it. I guess. Miquella deserved that Funko figure 😔 games never let us side with the feminine guys. Ugh.
First of all, great video! I especially appreciated the spoiler warning for other fromsoft games as I hope to play them at some point and have successfully avoided spoilers so far. Personally I think the DLC shows us that Miquella was a tragic hero, he had good intentions but things went south at some point in the shadow realm and he became a monster. To me it isn't unclear because they show that he stripped himself of love, and that he puts all his allies under his enchantment, even if they wish to serve him. This shows that Radahn's motivations have no bearing on what happens to him, Miquella takes his agency. I do agree that the ending memory is very out of place though, that memory should have had some sort of new info.
Thank you so much! I definitely recommend all of the Soulsbornekiroring games but I think Dark Souls 3 is the best one to start with since it plays the most like Elden Ring. And that read of Miquella being a tragic hero makes a lot of sense. (And things literally went south since he discarded St. Trina in the Cerulean Coast.)
8:20 actually weirdly enough you find the second highest concentration of Trina’s Lillies and her sword in Caelid at the Forsaken Ruins. The flowers are everywhere so it didn’t stand out, but the sword’s placement on top of that is interesting. There’s also a ton of them in Liurnia. Miquella’s Lillie’s are also primarily in Caelid and Liurna. Someone also pointed out recently the top and bottom ends of Radahn’s bow looks eerily similar to lillies, as does some of the iconography on his cape. It’s harder to tell with these though since there are good arguments in favor of them being lions’ tails. There’s a bunch of things that add up retroactively but I think the problem is the base game only hints at it with audio and visual queues. The subtlety resulted in the ending feeling like a twist instead of a potential outcome.
I was perplexed by the decision for them to use Radahn. As, the game entirely spoke to us through item descriptions that Godwyn would have maybe been Miquella’s chosen consort. The Golden Epitaph, and all items involving castle sol, made it very clear that Miquella intended to revive and then possibly kill Godwyn outright to give his souls a proper rest. That he was obviously denied due to Ranni’s intrigue. My assumption was, as I believe some also assumed, we would be going to the place where Godwyn’s souls was sent, and somehow killing it there or capturing it to be used at his body under the capital, fusing them or whatever and then fighting whatever amalgamation he has become. I was fully ready for that to be a part of the DLC. I was just left… speechless… but not in a good way when I saw Radahn. I had assumed maybe Miquella would have brought back Godwyn. Radahn just seems… not it.
Godwyn would have made much more sense, and had actual buildup. Any perceived contradictions to the base games lore would be put down to FromSoft’s ambiguous storytelling. No one would be confused or upset. There would be no controversy. It would be thematically relevant. I don’t know why they did what they did, but it definitely “tarnished” my respect for the way they tell stories in their games.
Miquella's goal with Godwyn seemed to be curing the Death Blight, both to rescue those affected by it and to prevent others from being affected by it. Miquella wasn't necessarily hoping to have Godwyn as his consort, and people expected that Miquella was still trying to save the world by solving this. The problems, IMO, are the poor execution of the DLC's reveals with Miquella and a crucial mistranslation in Freyja's dialogue that makes it sound like Radahn's soul was killed.
Only item in castle sol that relates to Godwyn is the eclipse shotel. Everything else refers to the soulless demigod right outside Godwyn fans have stretched the lore to such ridiculous places and then get mad when it’s confirmed false
@@Kashi-qo8ik You should really watch some of Quelaag’s videos from before the DLC. Then you will understand what I am saying. I’m not going to argue or debate with you, nor will I insult you.
Radahn would have felt better as an alternative final boss that requires a lot of foreknowledge to unlock. Like how Solaire usually ends up dead by default, but you can jump through several hoops to change his fate to a good ending. 15:48 And I also thought that jar bairn could have been used to accomplish that. What if the usual ending to the DLC involved Miquella resurrecting some long-dead hornsent hero to be his consort, in order to make amends with their people... ...but if you've given Jar Bairn the innards of Alexander and caused him to leave jarburg, you can meet him again in the shadow realm. And if you talk to him and follow his quest there, you inadvertently end up prompting him to arrive at the gate of divinity, and somehow meddle in whatever corpse ritual Miquella is pulling there, accidentally hijacking it with the flesh inside his body and causing Radahn to be resurrected instead. It'd certainly feel less like an asspull if the player had to go out of their way to make it happen.
He is literally just a puppet, Castle Sol was built to revive Godwin, when they realized that Godwin could not be revived, this was when he realized he needed The consort to be Radahn, Radahn had no intentions of being Miquellla's consort, which is why both millennia and your player character fight him in an attempt to kill him. He was in the way of both Ranni and Miquella, because he loved his dad and was a devout follower of the Golden order. He did not want there to be a new God even himself. Mogh kidnapped Miquella, And that is what forced miquella to charm him, Miquella then escaped mogh into the shadowlands, And it was only after we had killed both of them over the course of the game, That gave Miquella both the idea and the means to craft his own consort from the body and soul of two of his brothers. Promised consort is neither radahn or Mogh, Neither does promise consort have any self-determination or desires of its own. It is literally just Frankenstein. To put it plainly.
Yeah I agree with you. Also, the vow just seems to be one sided on miquella part and radahn was forced into it. Since, it makes more since in base game even when he was rotted, radahn still held the stars back. Which shows he was fighting against destiny and did not want to be his lord.
Love your stuff man. But imma let the intrusive thoughts out I love people that have speech impediments something about it makes me want to be your friend so bad. I dont know if that’s offensive or not lol
The main game finale works much better imo. Expecting to fight Marika, only to fight Radagon may be a surprise, but not necessarily confusing. If you aren't in the know, this isn't out of nowhere.
U brought up a lot of really great points man. I thought the dlc was awesome overall, but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t want a little bit more buildup towards the end. If Miquella was going to turn out to be an antagonist, I think a lot of us thought it would be through bringing back Godywn since there’s just a lot more about all that in the base game if u know where to look rather than his relationship with Radahn, so the shock value of his reveal ends up feeling like “did I miss something..?” at first even if u did piece together that he was coming back through Freyja and Ansbach’s sidequests. I think once the missing pieces of it all set in and u see how the things unanswered like why Malenia was fighting Radahn fit together, it definitely becomes a lot better overall.
My guy, the vow doesn't have to be agreed upon two parties. Miquella vowed that when Radahn died, he would resurrect him as his consort. That doesn't need Radahn's consent to make. The fact Malenia tries to kill Radahn so that the vow can be honored upholds this notion. If I vow to hunt you down and slap you with a banana irl, that vow doesn't require you to agree to it at all. I think people got confused with the unification between a God and their Lord and associated vow in a marital sense, but that's not the kind of vow being discussed here. "Now, the vow will be honoured, and my Lord Brother’s soul will return. So that he may be my consort.” Expecting Radahn to believe a naive child's promise of ressurection and lordship, to the point where in a world where death conceptually is removed, Radahn would allows himself to die, is not a concession that should be considered. I'm not going to sit here and claim I wish it wasn't fleshed out more, almost every storyline Miyazaki has crafted in the past decade has left me wanting more. I think the wait for the DLC ultimately soured the experience for a ton of the community. The fans had more than two years to come up with their own DLC in their heads, and when reality didn't meet their expectations, the community cries foul. Miquella's one constant is his great ambition and the detrimental inability to see them to a meaningful end. He might've been the demigod for the backdrop the community had for the most anticipated DLC in recent memory, but it's important to remember that this is NOT the story of Miquella. This is the tale of the Tarnished of No Renown, and Miquella's just another chapter in their story. If you stop separating the base game story and the DLC as individual pieces and you consume them as a 1 volume story(like it's intended to be) the DLC imo becomes much less abrasive.
@@lorisceleste1860 "Lord Brother. I’m going to be a god. If we honour our part of the vow, promise me you’ll be my consort. I’ll make the world a gentler place.” If Radahn was part of the vow, the second half of the sentence would be pointless. The statement is an attempt at a quid pro quo. "If we do x, promise me you'll do y" The vow has to be completed in order for Radahn to uphold his promise. "We" is not referencing Radahn, the sentence wouldn't make sense for what we know the vow to encompass.
"Expecting Radahn to believe a naive child's promise of ressurection and lordship" Why wouldn't Radahn "believe" Miquella's promise? He literally does resurrect Radahn. He literally makes him his lord. "to the point where in a world where death conceptually is removed, Radahn would allows himself to die, is not a concession that should be considered" Radahn "allowing himself to die" isn't some crazy thing he would never do. He made an oath of honorable death with Jerren. The removal of Destined Death isn't relevant here at all- the demigods are well aware of their own mortality by the time the Elden Ring is shattered. "Radahn would never agree to die" doesn't make any sense, much less to assert that the possibility of his assent should never be considered.
@@steigland It's not "quid pro quo" he's just stating the terms of the agreement. "Our part" of the vow is Radahn's death in battle and subsequent resurrection, his part is becoming Miquella's consort. He's clearly talking TO Radahn here, unless you think Miquella is delusional psycho who just mutters heartfelt prayers to himself for no reason.
@@blackeddeath You cannot use facts obtained centuries into the future to hand waive away the notion that the demigods lived in a world where death is not a threat to their existence. Destined Death and the removal of it from the world is the singular most impactful thing that happens in the story, so when discussing the death of a demigod and what that actually means, yeah it actually does matter. The one time any of the demigods had a brush with death was Godwyn, and yet you have a hard time believing why they might not be super thrilled about the notion of dying. People love bringing up the death pact with Jerren and love to conveniently leave out the fact he's rotting away from the Battle of Aeonia. Having a friend promise to kill you when you finally lose your faculties due to Eldritch Chlamydia doesn't mean he was willing to die for Miquella. I never said his assent to lordship shouldn't be considered. The vow was *to* Radahn, "If I can bring you back to life, promise me you'll be my consort" It's grammatically messy if you're ascribing responsibility to Radahn on both sides of the statement. "Hey bro if you help me with painting my house, promise me you'll me mow my lawn after" is the jist of what you're arguing for. It's absolutely quid pro quo. If I do something for you, you do something for me. A favor for a favor. That's precisely what Miquella's describing. Also stop pretending that Miquella doesn't have a "I'm willing to nuke a continent for my brother" loyal twin - "we" could very very easily be referencing the twin prodigies and the statement still holds up soundly
I’m pretty neutral on the matter. I like that radhan got to have a rematch without the madness of slowly decaying but I agree it should have been done better. I’m hoping that this is a sign of more to come because if this wasn’t even hinted at in the base game imagine what other relationships are happening behind the scenes
Radahn being his consort just makes no sense in my opinion. Everything in the main game pointed to Godwyn being Miquellas consort and there being an eclipse that would return godwyns soul, assumedly to mohgs body. That is the final boss I wanted. I will never believe Radahn was originally intended to be this way.
Talented moder made a Melenia, the Promised Consort with custom animations, new skins, and music. We actually get to fight a fully restored Melenia the valkyrie.
I tried to play the dlc a second time and just couldn’t do it. There just wasn’t anything else to do or discover. I found myself board and that ending was so disappointing. I avoided spoilers for months and just couldn’t believe that was it.
I have to respectfully disagree on a lot of these points. As a community we could use more self reflection on our assumptions and feelings rather than project them onto the intentions or competence of the author. And the Godwyn story and the response to PCR is a prime example of all these unchallenged, uncritical feelings coming to a head and us looking for validation in the shared disappointment rather than reflecting on why we should have even felt such disappointment to begin with. FromSoftware has a long history of major bosses with no real narrative buildup. Everything here about the lack of Radahn mentioned outside of one or two missable NPC quest lines easily applies to Orphan of Kos, Gael, Manus. And even in their base games, our final bosses are often barely mentioned outside of maybe one NPC and maybe, if we’re lucky, the opening cinematic. You could completely miss Miriel and Goldmask in the game and be left wondering why Marika suddenly turns into a male redhead named Radagon. You only really find out what the Nightmare of Mensis even was about after you kill something called Mergo’s Wet Nurse with little context on who Mergo was or what the Wet Nurse even is. Even the most straightforward end bosses like Gwyn or Allant are surprise encounters we aren’t told we will fight and kill them until we’re already doing it, unless you manage to not place the Lordvessel as soon as you get it. Point is, narrative flow and buildup are not and were never really a thing in these games. It’s all atmosphere and journey, and the narrative is something we piece together after the fact as we’ve always done. The expectation for Godwyn and Miquella was a strange craze to witness, a fan theory on some very limited evidence and most likely disappointment that the Mending Rune of Death quest wasn’t that grand. Had FS actually delivered on this expectation, it would have been unprecedented in a number of ways, and we should definitely take away from it a good lesson not to jump onto a popular fan-theory driven bandwagon again. I also wish the ending to Fia’s quest wasn’t just another ancient dragon fight after a simp battle royale. It’d be nice if there was a major update they completely reworked it, just like it’d be nice if we got way more about Loran and the catacombs. But lore was only ever a fascinating vehicle to suck the attentive player into their world building, not the actual point of these games or why most players enjoy them. And as a vehicle to deliver yet another cryptic series of questions, PCR and Miquella’s vow is as good as anything else FS has delivered. Completing a story, filling in gaps, these were never in the cards since Demon’s Souls never gave us the broken archstone DLC.
I think we should've got a better ending. I don't think that cut scene was really fitting for an ending. I think it would have been better for one of his memories at the cross or something. But to be our reward for fighting a boss that literally had to get adjusted, because its hit boxes were inherently broken and unfair. Is absolutely wild and mid
So I believe the Amber Starlight and Ranni’s questline sheds some light on Radahn and the nature of fate and mind control in the world of Elden Ring. The Amber Draught that is concocted with Starlight from a shrine to Miquella fails to alter the fate of Ranni’s doll form. It seems that the “fate that is written in the stars” is something that Carian sorcery is able to harness. Selivus’ efforts to subjugate Ranni are an interesting parallel to Miquella’s own attempts to charm Radahn. The Lucidity spell and the focus stat are examples of how a sorcerer can abate forms of mental control so it can be reasonably assumed that the Carian family, which has a divine connection to the stars, also has a capacity to resist things that could alter their fate. Killing Radahn and being present when his soul is revived could then be a way to weaken him enough for Miquella’s charm to fully function.
Sweet and sour feelings for this DLC. Awesome level design, but bosses coming from nowhere: Rellana, Gaius, Romina. They don't make any sense and are just additional content because, well no reason. Just adding bosses completely far-fetched with the main story. They just don't fit at all here. And I disagree with Rellana and the three sisters. Ranni is a daughter, doesn't make sense, and nothing tells us that the towers are contemporary to Renalla/Rellana, the towers could be ancient. Radahn-Miquella : absolute disappointment. Radahn died by our hand, just move on. let's not waste time in describing the fight, absolute absence of fun and pure garbage just here to frustrate and destroy the player, and add a lot of show off, because, well... I don't know. I still remember the first time I killed Consort Radahn. My reaction was : "that's it? Is it done? Where is the fight with Miquella? Don't tell me the DLC ends with this terribly badly designed boss..." Miquella is presented as a genius, but he failed everything he attempted. Presented as almost absolute, kind, terrifying, we have a Serosh/Lorian version of him. What a bad joke. And let's also add a clickbait seeing him on top of Torrent in DLC preview. Never seen another reference of that in the story or DLC. Finally we have the strongest demigod Radahn, being a joke twice, once as mindless, once as a puppet. And the genius Miquella a complete failure. In the end, this DLC story makes no sense at all to me, almost like if the DLC ignored parts of the main game. I won't pretend I am a lore-expert, but all I see are parts of a story poorly patched together...
Shadow of the Erdtree has some of the best and worst of Fromsoft's writing and design habits. Ironically for being the Miquella DLC, he was one of the least enjoyable parts of the dlc. Hell his followers are far more interesting than him. The Marika lore, Messmer and his followers, the depravity of the hornsent, and just Bayle with Igon are vastly better than Miquella and Radahn. Just felt...bad? Like for the biggest most grandiose and highly anticipated dlc in recent memory the story felt flat and had a deeply unsatisfying conclusion that for me soured the experience. I beat the dlc once and know that I have no desire to fight the super incest bros again.
Gaius actually gives great insight with his armor set description. Because by establishing the connections between Messmer, Gaius, and Radahn as close brothers means they were all against the Hornsent. The same Hornsent who are now protecting Miquella. Why did Miquella abandon Melania? Because both her and Radahn learned from the Dancing Swordsman which was the same style used to rage war. Which is why Melania and Radahn is much more interesting fight because they have the same swordplay ideology but fueled by different motives and elements. Back to my original point. Messmer campaign was to rage war on all the Hornsent because of their history with Marikas people. Radahn and Gaius were very close to Messmer so it's very reasonable to deduce after the Shattering it wasn't a Free for All but a strategic civil war amongst the demigods started by Miquella. How do I know it was Miquella? Because Miquella abandoned the Order, Radogan, and Marika long before the shattering. When Miquella hated his own fathe/mother Marika broke. She resented her godhood because now her own children hate her. How miserable life must be to be as a hated god...? Hence the Shattering. She couldn't fix Melania and have Miquella forgive her. Miquella even couldn't forgive her for avenging her own people and then went on to become their new savior. That's the story of Elden Ring. This is about what it's like to become "Abandoned God". "Do you think God stays in heaven because he to is afraid of what he has created?" Self Hatred is a huge theme in Elden Ring.
Next to most narrative games one could say they’ve botched all their endings. I’ve never felt a feeling of reward from their endings. That part comes from the journey itself.
Did you somehow miss malenia blooming specifically to send him to Tricky Miq? Her whisper? Whether he agreed long ago or not, Radahn was unwilling. I see Miq as someone who has given in to despair. The only way is to control everyone. He has failed repeatedly and abandoned trying to help. Since my main is a moonveil, and I chose Ranni as a ton of players did (and from KNOWS that) Ranni wants end interference and create an age of man reasoning on their own. Faith in humanity. So it was that hope/despair contrast in the real last battle of the shattering in the dlc. So it became EXTREMELY meaningful to me. I agree about Messmer. And the ending cutscene that adds nothing. It should have been a cutscene of the sibs all together and Miq asks Radahn for the vow, Radahn promises and then they all laugh. Happier times and hints Radahn didn't take it seriously.
My biggest gripe with the whole DLC is still the total lack of GEQ, Melina and Torrent related things, particularly the Torrent stuff. Like, why is he important at all besides being our car? Was Miquella really his previous owner? If so, what spurred their separation? How did he end up with Melina? What even IS he, cause there ain’t any lore about him anywhere either part of the game. I love this game, and the DLC is awesome from a gameplay perspective, and the stuff surrounding Messmer and Marika’s connection to the Land of Shadow is peak storytelling to me, but I personally think it might be the weakest FromSoft DLC to date. Artorias showed us several of Gwyns most prominent warriors mentioned through the story, as well as the origin of the Abyss and the power held by the Dark Soul. The 3 crowns of DS2 showed us other kingdoms that rose and fell to the cycle as alluded to by other characters (the addition of Aldia helped connect them all even more) and even effects the ending in a minor way if you collect all the crowns. Ashes of Ariandel provides us information about the origins of the painted worlds, but also how they work in the sense of progressing from one world to another as well as how each one seems to have a specific purpose. The Ringed City finally brings us face to face with the titular Dark Soul as well as shows us what happened to the original Pygmies who possessed the Dark Soul and even shows us the future of the world should it be left to fester in the same endless cycle it’s been trapped in for who knows how long. Shadow of the Erdtree does give us some good lore tidbits, but nothing central to the main plot of the DLC reveals its. We learn that the Two Fingers never communed with the Greater Will, only with Metyr who never received any messages from the Greater Will either. We learn where Queen Marika came from as well as how she became a god, but learn nothing more of her relationship with Radagon, and we learn of the spurned son who was never wanted. Only the first thing is really relevant to anything that happens in Elden Ring, the others are just…backstory really.
As someone who figured out Miquella's plan before I got to the reveal, including him wanting to revive Radahn with Mogh's body, I loved it. It felt so satisfying to have solved a 2 year long mystery, which involved almost the entire plot of the game. I think it's a bit strange to criticize the story for it not being "clear", when the whole point of From's stories is that you're supposed to figure it out. Especially since Elden Ring's story is much more focused on its mystery, and how most of its plot points are connected. In previous games, most of the plot and characters are only loosely tied together, mostly through themes, but Elden Ring's story has most of its characters directly involved.
I find it so funny when people call the idea that Miquella wanted to grant Godwyn a true death for the same reason he wanted us to kill Radahn, headcanon. “Headcanon,” as loaded of a term as it is, is quite literally the way the games’ lore and narrative are supposed to be interpreted. You’re supposed to come up with your own stories based on what you’re being shown & told, and run with it. But people, for some reason, are so fixated on what’s objectively confirmed, or what’s presented to us outright. Anything theorized outside of what we know for sure, is treated negatively. People use “headcanon” and “speculation” like they’re derogatory terms or something, like the opinion is invalid somehow simply because it’s headcanon or speculation. In a game where it’s confirmed by the devs themselves that the full narrative is intentionally obscured or left vague enough for us to have to fill in the blanks, by restricting your theories solely to what can be easily proven in-game, you’re actually further removing yourself from the truth. It’s like if I were to show you a picture of a bird in the sky, but there’s no clouds or sun or moon or stars in the background, so you say “well we don’t know for sure if the bird is in the sky, there’s nothing there proving that’s the sky in the background” when you could just use common sense and look at the feathers and wings.
I personally think that "the vow" is potentially referencing the dialog Melina gives you at the battlefield grace near Leyndell. How Marika wanted her children to become lords or gods and not amount to sacrifices. The whole "promised consort" stuff is more open ended, tho.
3:07 I think that is what fromsoft was going for. Miquella used the eclipse to cement Godwyn as the prince of death, Radan is a puppet and Miquella is not smarter or better than any other of the competing demigods. I think we all gave Miquella too much credit because he appears like a child, and everyone talks about him positively, but he was behind the night of the assassinations. It is his pride in believing that he can simply be better than the golden order without having to make any of the concessions that the golden order made to become what it is that blinds him. It’s like any political activist who just wants to slam shot their ideology into being without any consideration for how to sustain it.
The lack of connection between Messmer and Miquella maddens me. There are literally pieces of Miquella IN the Black Castle... and there's nothing significant connecting him and Messmer? Messmer could have been even more proof for Miquella that Marika was fundamentally cursed, the interactions between them literally write themselves...
I do agree, the game misses and important part in delivering information. I did not expect to see R as consort, I Also hoped to see more about Mogh too in the consort appearance, but It Is what It is and we have got what we have got. My personal impression as soon as I saw him was: "uhm, really? Uhmmmm" then he flatted me 🤣
11:25 the theme that links all of the important bosses from the Elden ring DLC together are outer gods. In the base game, outer gods are a legitimate concept to be explored question. In the DLC we come to find that the outer gods aren’t real, Scarlet rot, frenzied flame, the Golden order, even the fingers, all of them can bleed, they are not in some land far away, they are in a land that people were forced to forget to reinforce the power of the golden order, but even this was in vain
To me it makes sense that Godwin cant be his consort because his death is linked to ranni, and since her soul yet lives his body cant die, and it appears that the secret rite requires a lord who is already dead for some reason. But I agree radahn as promised consort comes out of nowhere and overall the storytelling in the dlc doesnt really hang cohesively or flow well at all. Even for minimal story telling there isnt much to make everything hang together very well. Especially when two of the remembrance bosses dont have any lines at all it's a little disappointing
From took inspiration in how GRR Martin writes his stories, and haven't included an ending
“And who has a better story than Promised Consort Radahn?”
The game ends with the Elden Beast. Like Dark Souls ended with Gwyn. Grow up.
The ending is the end of the base game
@@garrulousgoldmask Read the books. Bran is the key to A Song of Ice and Fire.
Age of Order bruv!
The biggest letdown was that miquella didn't turn out to be a moth. He is in a cocoon, he has budding bug wings when mohg is stealing him. WTF? I wanted to fight a miquella mothman. Sucks.
Bugquella gang rise up
Moth, spams holy spears, dream motivs, mind control, has a silent protector, oh wait
@@akechijubeimitsuhide Biggest lore reveal: Radahn is Hollow Knight
Original lore was for Miquella to absorb Malenia, Romina was originally one phase of the final boss
@@MHrrs78 mothman and merman double fight
When i have a "huh?!" or "thats it?" moment in a Fromsoft game, somethings gone wrong. Miyazaki, you botched it this time
My guy be disappointed with greatness 😅
@@whatsnewbois9814 exactly. all previous dlc final bosses had clear emotional stakes.
@@Darfailmy guy be confusing serviceability with greatness
@BruTalc my dude also be unhappy with greatness 😞
To be fair I was like that when I killed slave knight Gael 😅
The ending cutscene pissed me off so much, it's literally so useless lmaooo
I completely agree with your take; I think the devs focused too much on the Mohg twist and did everything to narritively prove his innocense and thus forgot to properly expand on the rest. I like From's vague storytelling most of the time, but sometimes you just gotta admit it's not the best way to tell a good story.
I think the idea that they focused on mohg innocence is stupid. He is at best throw away. What people focused on too much is godwyn.
I don't think Mohg was innocent of kidnapping Miquella, his pattern with the war surgeons and the ghost demanding Miquella's return ASAP in the Consecrated Snowfield indicate that the abduction was never Miquella's plan. However, I do agree that the ending cutscene sucked and only told us all of the things we already knew. There was no given answer to the vow, or set up as to why a memory would hover there.
@@nightscout9979 Ansbach straight up said he challenged Miquella, Leda said he "managed to cleave him open". That's not what you do to cocoon with an unresponsive guy in it. The ghost in the CS seems more angry that Mohg is an omen than Miquella's kidnapping lol
This is a minor thing and I see how it may not convince people, but the way Malenia (and Haligtree soldier ashes) speaks of Miquella's *return* kinda implies that he went at his own will. Like they were waiting for him to get something done ya know?
From a meta-narrative standpoint, I really feel like the story tries its best to convey Mohg's innocence, especially through Ansbach's character who's essentially Mohg's representative (he's kind, rational, honorable, a reliable source etc.) As a writer that's how I'd do it.
@@janogabor7697 So much of Godwyn was alluded to being relevant before and after the DLC so....
@@kennyg3118 Those allusions is basically "oh godwyn is like dead dead, like no turning it back, the world is fucked dead" people were just really wanting a bossfight so they took it as a maybe there is more. He is a cancer on the world.
The only relevance he has is to hammer home that the default ending (choosing to be Elden lord) would solve nothing because Godwyn is still a thing and only the more radical endings matter
Yeah, there's not much I can add because you explained my thoughts very well. It's not that Radahn being the promised consort can't work it's just that the execution is poor, sadly. It feels like the DLC needed more development time, really. Even if you read everything, pay attention to the environment, etc., it still leaves you feeling like something's missing. Why the heck do we fight Romina? Because she's in the way, that's why. Why is Messmer blocking the path to Miquela even when Miquela is supposedly trying to "undo" his and their mother's crimes? Because he's in the way, that's why. Why is Radahn fighting us? Uuuh... Because... promised consort shenanigans? But we don't get a glimpse of motive on his part. We know what Miquella wants, but Radahn could've been a souless automaton and not much would've changed. One could try to argue that that's the point, that Miquella turns people into puppets, but we have seen that it's not the case: Malenia, Leda, Dane, Thiollier, Ansbach, Leda... All people pledged to Miquella in some way, some of the confirmed to be charmed, but they still show purpose and a variety of interests and degrees of conformity. Miquella's compulsion doesn't strip people of all their personality.
Edit to add: The only thing that Miquella's final memory adds, if any, is a confirmation that Miquella's intentions were true, but, still... why do we need that confirmation? That's one of the things it's fun to speculate about. Radahn's motives right now I wouldn't even consider as worthy of speculation: we've got NOTHING on them, so we can only invent them from scratch and, at that point, it's 100 % fanfiction.
Both Romina and Rellana were prime examples of just how bad the time crunch must have gotten. Both hugely important characters with whole backstories and we learn nothing that connects to any larger narrative. Hell, the most lore important character ended up being Bayle which completely contradicts the ongoing theme of "history being lost through time." We learned more about ancient beings than about current, ongoing dynasties. Very strange all around.
@BigBadWolframio WE can sort of ascertain Radahn's motivation by what we know about his goals prior. We know he ditched the Golden Order when he decided to join Miquella so the next ppssible explanation was that Radahn just wanted to be Elden Lord and was grateful that Miquella gave him the opportunity to be so when he was revived, so just joined him out of solidarity even though initially they were in disagreement. And to be fair, we fight a LOT of from bosses just cause they're in the way even in their dlcs. Demon prince, Ludwig, Artorias, crystal sage, curse rotted greatwood, vordt, dancer, pontiff, Kalameet, Living Failures, One reborn, shadows of yharnam, martyr logarius(since the hunter just wanted to uncover the mysteries of the castle) and even Lady Maria to an extent(we want to unlock the secrets of the old hunters and she doesn't want that). I think the real thing we should be critsizing here is some of the dlc bosses don't do a good job of establishingWHY we fight THEM. There is no real reason why Romina may want to fight us and it sucks cause elden Ring, more than any other fromsoft game, does a pretty stellar job at establishing boss motivations EVEN in the same dlc. Shame both Romina and Rellana got none of that. Rellana could have literally had a 5 second cutscene where she just says that she knows were going to hurt Messmer and it's her duty to not let that happen. Or Have a cutscene where Romina is pissed and cursing the golden order and fights us since we have guilt by association.
As for Radahn, it's pretty simple
There can only be one lord. And he wants to be Elden Lord. So we gotta go.
@@cabbagedemon5944 they are not "hugely important" one is just the sword of the actual important character
The Bewitching Branches make people kill their own allies, so Miquella can severely brainwash people, and he does so to the Tarnished with the grab attack, so that's likely the case with the revived Radahn. Messmer hates that a Tarnished is selected to be Elden Lord since it's a new, severe betrayal and he's been badly hurt already. Also, if Messmer knows what a Tarnished is, then he likely knows what the guidance of Grace leading Tarnished to a demi-god entails, and feels that Marika is ordering the Tarnished to kill him.
The seal on Messmer might also be forcing him to fight those without Grace to an extent, and once the seal is gone, there's the matter of the abyssal serpent's influence. Romina is likely a minion of the Scarlet Rot by that point and thus is directed to attack everyone.
That said, I agree that the execution for Miquella wanting Radahn as his consort is very poor.
If a player doesn't do *all* of Ansbach and Freyja's quest, they will be tremendously lost, and the idea feels weak even then. There needed to be more to emphasize Miquella being desperate and grabbing at straws, with characters in the setting even being surprised and disappointed in Miquella for taking such an aimless shot in the dark.
It can be inferred that Miquella wasn't the knows-everything, unpressured, flawless savior that some people hoped him to be, but more needed to go into expressing how he was at his wit's end and cracking. The tragedy of his abduction ruining the Haligtree plan, something even Marika seemingly thought had merit due to her noted sorrow Gideon mentions upon the kidnapping, needed to be addressed again as well.
Messmer death was necessary for the tarnished to burn the branches of the shadow tree obstructing enir ilim.
The reason we fight Radahn is kinda obvious. We aint allowing any other lords other than us, regardless of their intentions. Also the mid fight cutscene kinda heavily implies that Radahns soul is returned to that body, as per the vow.
No clue as to what is going on with Romina though
I think presentation was the bigger problem. It's very odd that Radahn has such a nice-looking new body considering it was cobbled together from the corpse of Mohg. We know from the crosses that Miquella abandoned not just his flesh, but aspects of his personality and emotional range that he viewed as inhibitions, including his love and his fear and doubt. So what does he need with this clean, attractive consort? Why not make Radahn/Mohg more monstrous, and invoke more features from each of them? This would make clearer that Radahn's and Mohg's shared fate is a tragedy concocted by a newly risen god who's ruined his own ability to recognize the horror he's created. I did the NPC quests so I knew we were getting a Radahn fight in some form, but my reaction would have been better if i were shocked by the contrast between Miquella's golden majesty and the disgust and horror invoked by a monstrous "consort"
@@joshk494 nice! That would of been way cooler
My way of thinking of it is that giving him a more restored body allowed Radahn to be more complicent before getting ultimately charmed in second phased
The resurrected Radahn isn't monstrous because his fate isn't supposed to be tragic. Miquella fulfilled his promise and Radahn is reborn as a lord, poised to conquer the Lands Between just like his hero, Godfrey. His appearance and the music that plays during his fight is bright and triumphant for a reason. The only tragedy here is literally just a headcanon.
@@blackeddeath I know what they were going for but clearly it didn't play well with people. I'm offering an alternative presentation that I think would have turned an unearned plot twist into something more substantial. Maybe Radahn THOUGHT he might be getting a new life of unending war and glory, only to be returned as a freak of nature bound to frightening new god.
They should have gone more Bloodborne and less ASOIAF here
I think the problem isn't that Godwyn aint the final boss. The problem is that its Radahn.
My guess would have been Miquella alone or the Divine Beast God incarnation
Yeah while I can live without Godwyn, Radahn was a terrible choice.
I think we should’ve fought Miquella himself without anyone aiding him.
Or anything new.
He never said that Godwyn should have been the final boss, just that his story with Miquella was unfinished
Hell imagine if he brought in fucking Godrick instead out of nowhere. Even that would be better, at least I’d feel something
When they originally announced that killing Radahn is a requirement to enter the DLC i suspected that it had something to do with him controlling the stars (and we know the stars control fate itself).
My assumption was that Miquella's path to godhood was halted by Radahn and Malenia fought him for that very reason.
I’m pretty sure most of us assumed it was something like that. Definitely wasn’t expecting the route they took at all.
Was very disappointed
Radahn halting the stars only affected the fates of the Carian royal family like Ranni, it doesn't apply to everyone else in the Lands Between
I’m quite certain that the Eclipse was originally going to be a major plot point in the DLC, and this is why I think we would have needed to kill Radahn to enter the DLC
@@jobbersupreme8720 No, it affects everyone, this is confirmed by the amber starlight and the whole ymir questline in the DLC
@@jobbersupreme8720 The Astrologer class' gear notes that "fate" is no longer in the stars, so Radahn's seal likely affects everyone, not just his family.
So I've been really conflicted about the ending of the dlc like everyone, but most of the videos I've watched have been really unsatisfying, but this video solidifies why you're one of my favourite lore hunters. The problem with ER lore isn't so much that they bait and switched godwyn (I personally think godwyns storyline is complete: boys dead, nothings bringing him back, destined death is dead forever), but that the lore has always been the first thing cut or sacrificed for deadlines. We saw this with all the cut NPCs and storylines in the base game (Kale and the mimic tear are the two I still can't work out why they cut). From know that most of their audience don't care about lore, and the prioritisation of everything else makes sense...but as a lore addict, getting everything unravelled to find that there wasnt actually a big world ending secret at the heart is disappointing.
I'm really glad the video resonated with you! Making the video was cathartic for me since unlike a lot of critics, I actually do think Radahn being Miquella's consort could work. But that storyline was so underdeveloped, which felt particularly odd since the DLC spent almost 2 1/2 years in development. And like you said, it felt super disappointing to see that there wasn't any bombshell lore revelation In Miquella's final cut scene. Plus, since the Radahn elements were so undercooked, it also lacked the emotional impact of the endings for The Ringed City and The Old Hunters.
And yeah, I'm still baffled by FromSoft dropping the Mimic Tear and Kale quests. Especially the latter! My (Elden) Lord, his voice acting was phenomenal.
(Before the DLC came out, I was thinking that maybe Kale's quest was cut because they wanted to minimize the lore for the Frenzied Flame. But then the DLC added Midra and the new lore morsel that he was just one of many failed Lords of Frenzied Flame...)
And thank you so much for your support and your praise!!
Maybe from software cut content so that we could get a better player experience? Like they prioritised the player rather than their ego unlike some other triple A companies lol
Love your work
@@garrulousgoldmask I am in the same boat mostly, totally underwhelmed and confused by Radahn, but with some lore videos and some reddit posts I can see that it may make sense.
Someone pointed out that Radahn's bow has Miquella lillies on the end. Other things pointed out, are the crucible knight and crucible things at the redmane castle hinting at connection to hornsent/shadowlands, and there are misbegotten, trolls, pumpkin head, and lion guards. Not too many places are mixed bags like this, but Haligtree is.
there is one single Miquellas lily there too.
We can find also an arteria leaf here as well.
Some other connections are Sellia (Radahn) and Ordina (Miquella statues and entrance to Haligtree) having the same architecture. We see that there are many black knife assassins here. and we see that most of miquealla's lillies on the map are around Ranni, Mt Gelmir, and Caelid. I think he had something to do with night of black knives, probably to become a God, but also didn't want his brother Godwyn to end like that. I think there is some hints showing that Miquella needs Radahn as his consort in order to make all his goals come true. He needs this guy who can use gravity to control stars to make the eclipse happen.
We have battle mage Hugues who came from Sellia, and we have multiple battlemages in the Haligtree. The descriptions of battle mages are very similar to Radahn's love for battle.
Haligtree is the only location of the Giant Oracle Envoy, who heralds in a new god. Hinting at Miquella being a god beforehand. We have the prattling Pate "My Beloved" here, might be Radahn it refers to.
I don't know if I am stretching, but I think there are some little hints.
I personally believe Kale's questline was cut because Hyetta's questline made it redundant. They both illustrated the same themes and both led you to the same final destination. I understand why people are disappointed that Kale missed out on all that character development (the cut lines really do resonate), but I think it was ultimately the right call on From's part. I also think it's a misconception that From cuts lore because of deadlines, or because they don't think people care. Don't forget, their approach to lore is minimalist by design, so I believe they cut anything they don't consider crucially important, even if it's finished/usable content.
When I finished Fromsoft's earlier games, I felt the same sense of disappointment as you. I have learned over time that the best way to appreciate these stories is to embrace their ambiguity, and simply enjoy the sense of mystery and wonder for what it is. That's where the satisfaction lies.
@@launcelotdulake8075 Interesting perspective and I agree about growing to love the ambiguity. I think the lore ambiguity makes replay with new builds even more fun.
One thing I'm interested in hearing more about and that is like a worm eating my brain, and maybe there is a good video I missed on it, is Godwyn's name. Is he the only child of Marika who's name doesn't start with M? If so, why? There's something there that, I personally, haven't found explored much. I know his Dad starts with G but typically the name starts with the first letter of the God parents name. Also, what was the Gloam Eyed Queens actual real name? Names are very important so there has to be an interesting reason Godwyn starts with G and the GEQ's name is never revealed. 🤔
My issue with the DLC is that none of it's plot was hinted at in the main game
Rahdan and malenia were presented as rivals, miquella was presented as a kind person who wanted to save the lands rather than force everyone to play nice
But the biggest issue is that the cinematic trailer set up questions that the DLC never bothered to answer
Well bewitching branches already hinted at Miquella’s true nature. So I fully expected him to not be what he seemed.
Yeah the marketing stuff felt way better than what we actually got. A lot more about Marika and the past and seemingly made it seem like Miquella would be more involved than he was.
Then there’s the thing with Miquella/Marika riding Torrent in the initial teaser that meant nothing as well as the cutscene from the gameplay trailer they removed
@@TREVORVADERbewitching branch is mistranslated, as usual. The malice implications don't exist in the Japanese.
Miquella being evil is established in the base game, Malenia calls him the most fearsome empyrean, she was very very afraid of him (probably before being bewitched into waiting for him forever at the Haligtree). Base game already was very clear in saying Miquella was a mysterious character who explored all possibilities of faith, science and gender (similar to the player and Marika, to some extent) but somehow became too dangerous. Mohg’s obsession with Miquella and Malenia’s comment made it hard to believe Miquella was actually a victim in all that conundrum. Malenia having been somehow tricked into fighting Radahn was a common theory given how weird it was, and the DLC explains it. It was just TOO simple and direct of an ending, very unlike From Software and very boring, the laziest ending you could build from what WAS established in the base game.
@@VTWS yeah the way he was seemingly praised in everything was odd to me but after finding that bewitching branch lore I just knew that he wasn’t a good as everything made him out to be. The DLC delivering on that was one of the aspects I was happy with.
My issue was with the rest of the story that aside from the awesome NPCs, like Ansbach and Thiolier, the story was so lackluster. They had so much room to do so much cool stuff and they squandered it with a repeat boss (who’s more Godfrey than he is Radahn) and an abrupt, hollow ending. It’s just over with a memory showing us something we’d already heard multiple times before.
Fun fact for anyone who doesn’t know. Miquella’s model in the memory links back to the egg in Mogh’s boss room in the game files meaning it’s likely from an older version of stuff they scrapped and repurposed for the DLC.
@@killerking2346Taking people's will is pretty malevolent.
shout out to people who have the guts to complain about fromsoftware in this toxic fandom. gods strongest soliders
edit: help
@@melchiorsmokes I couldn't agree more with you my dear friend. Many people have given from software too much credit recently with elden ring and shadow of the erdtree, something they don't deserve in such a very positive manner or way, seeing how flawed the game is in so many areas.
I can get it from the newbies that just have gotten into this genre by elden ring and some of the veterans, but for the vast majority of us this is mostly a letdown in many ways.
Becoming a mainstream game really hurt this community that while it wasn't perfect before, it was more quiet and you could talk about the goodies and bads of the games in so many ways. Now you can't criticize this flawed game known as Elden ring in any form without somebody coming here and telling you :"lmao you are just a hater and need to git gud".
I still love elden ring despite these glaring flaws but it is inferior and it's below other games such as lies of p, black myth wukong, stellar blade where they are actually evolving the genre in so many ways.
I think the reason people are so quick to justify and defend the game, and discredit the opinions and intelligence of anyone offering criticism, is because that’s what they have to do to be okay with how the game turned out themselves. They can probably see how flawed ER and especially its DLC are, but have had to convince themselves somehow that no, there’s a reason it all feels like this, surely it’s still the masterpiece they were expecting, it all must be intentional… And the people pointing it out, saying “hey, uh, this actually wasn’t that great after all” threaten the peace of mind they’ve had to find.
It’s like why so many people get insanely patriotic in the US when this place has so clearly gone down the wrong path. If they can’t take pride in their country, what can they take pride in? They’d rather fight for an unjust cause, than accept the reality that their cause is unjust.
@@eliasfigarzon9813What flaws? This game is still a solid 9 at the very least.
I would ask you take the rose tinted glasses off for a second and remember that ever since dark souls there were always people who shit on the next game. "Dark souls isn't like demon souls" "Dark souls 2 isn't dark souls" "Dark souls 3 is bullshit hard" "Bloodborne is too hard and the lore makes no sense" "Sekiro is just complete and utter shit, no builds, just r1 spam, tools are useless, bosses are lame compared to the other games, the final boss is bs"
Not to mention the lore people who were a minority that got larger but lacked the ability to be civil and accused every relevant guy of stealing from another.
I don't want to bust out the list of complaints but let me tell you, you've got a serious case of forgetitis.
@@BygoneT lmao kid what's wrong with you? Can't accept the facts? OK I'll tell you some of the list here.
Lore is all over the place and broken.
Terrible design in so many areas.
Bad boss Design, the worst of the whole souls series.
Side quest are impossible to track due to the open world.
Open world lacks spaces where you can do something and not just stare at the landscape because it is empty.
Lack of replay value even though it is an open world game.
Bad leveling system for the dlc.
Bosses from other games that aren't souls are here. Looking at you malenia.
So many reused bosses and enemies. They need learn from black myth wukong here.
The camera is the worst here.
So many repeated bosses here.
Again, they need to look at black myth wukong here.
Weird hit boxes in many areas.
And the list goes on, now feel free to attack me with your ideas about how wrong am I in everything I say here.
@@eliasfigarzon9813 What are you even saying "kid" for? Isn't there a guy right above my comment saying things about getting defensive and insulting others? Pointing out you're forgetting things isn't an insult.
What are some examples of all over the place lore?
Terrible design is subjective, next. Loved every single area.
Bad boss design is subjective, next. Radahn is my favourite boss of the DLC, top 3 bosses of the entire game followed by Malenia who I died to over 1000 times. The only gripe I have about a boss in this DLC is reusing the lion but that's lore justified.
Side quests being impossible to track was the same in the base game, a minor issue if you explore like a maniac like I do, but creating quests like it's King's Field was their idea. It does feel amazing to complete them without using any help, which is entirely possible is part of the intent. Sometimes even on ps5 you can miss NPCs taking time to load in. But this depends on the quest. Manus metyr quests are right there, Freya is easy, Ansbach too, Thiollier was the only annoying one along with Moore but once you know where to go it's all right. The dragon priestess is trivially easy, not to mention Igon.
This point is void of any reason, what does "do something other than stare into empty space" even mean? There are enemies to fight, castles to assault, tears to get from the giant walking cauldrons of doom, paintings to solve, items to find, etc. Void point, genuinely feels random to see it here, it's like you stopped at the first opening of the DLC and went no further.
Nah lack of replay value is insane. Actually out of this world, there is legitimately a tear that unlocks Sekiro in ER and you're telling me that's not worth several playthroughs? I will replay this to death. The aesthetics variety in this DLC is huge, i love every boss, adds tons of materials and cool weapons, idk what you're on about.
The leveling system is an issue because of what? Collecting it? You barely need 12 to be efficient. I don't mind it at all. I don't think it's great barring the big numbers of damage you'd never get to see otherwise. Not great not bad to me. But it does solve the fundamental problem of people coming in over leveled for their first experiences and shitting on it because they're OP. If that's the only intent then it's a good system.
Bad bosses from other games? Holy still going on about that thing. It's like the people who still say poise is off in ds3. Malenia is amazing and I will not stand for this slander. All of her moves can be dealt with, not a single one is impossible to counter in some way. Fighting her is like dancing, I always leave a character in front of her and PCRadahn if I want to fight them to pass 30 minutes and never beat them just to try it with another weapon.
I rarely had camera problems. Don't know what to tell you.
Yeah there are a couple repeated bosses, so? Oh no... I don't receivemental damage from it. Godefroy is not my favourite boss, but he doesn't diminish my experience, to make a point.
Asset reuse is a standard in videogames, legit doesn't matter when the map is bigger and better than promised, with all the spells and weapons added, tears, AoW, etc. This DLC is as big as a full game but at reasonable price.
Idk about weird hitboxes but I played not too long ago for the first time Maybe they were fixed.
Haven't played BMW but will eventually get to it. if you like it good for you, but in no way does it mean anything that you prefer their approach.
My biggest problem with this ending is that it makes the dlc feel without purpose, think of the artorias dlc and how it was about giving artorias a dignified end and create the very legend we've been hearing about all game, or the ringed city and from it a new gentle world can now be born, or the old hunters and how we break the curse by freeing the orphan and give doll and gehrman some peace, I get none of that from sote, the land and its people reserve no conclusion, the shadow tree remains a withered reminder of their abandonment, you don't get to climb the divine steps, you don't know how Messmer ties to any of this, you're not even given a choice to side with miquella
Another thing I wanna point out is the visual representation of the narrative and how jarring it feels, one of the reasons why radagon works so well is because he's a god of gold in a game all about the brilliance and strength of gold, sote is all about light and dark, life and death and yet the final boss uses gravity and blood magic alongside light for some reason?
Fantastic points! Like you said, FromSoft is usually so good at conveying an emotional response through its lore and its environments and it just feels completely squandered with Promised Consort Radahn.
And I really like your point about the visual representation. Now that you mention it, it does feel very bizarre that the final boss in a DLC called “Shadow of the Erdtree” that takes place underneath the Scadutree doesn't incorporate shadows/the dark at all.
@@garrulousgoldmask
Miyazaki takes a page from sam lake on the board meeting for the final boss "it's not a shadow it's a light"
I feel that the story of the DLC was the cycle of violence and how the Land of Shadow had no grand answers for people like Miquella, along with further devastation from Marika's scars and decisions. The only goal Marika ultimately seems to have is killing the Elden Beast, apparently from a sense of betrayal, and she notably does not care about what transpires to accomplish this, even if everyone is harmed in the process.
Now, with that said, the DLC's story could have emphasized and fleshed out this point *far better* than it did. More characters needed to remark on Miquella's desperation. A line or two needed to address the Cleansing Chamber and how it seemingly burns away Empyreans' "flaws", thus making Miquella's resulting state likely no better than Marika.
The memory after the final battle needed to address exactly how Miquella sought to make a gentler world in the past, so as to emphasize the tragedy of him choosing something utterly corrupt (constantly oppressing people with his powers) or something so impractically naive as to never work in the setting.
Also, unrelated to Miquella, the DLC needed to explain what in the world the Scadutree is. Does it automatically exist as a requirement to having the Erdtree? If so, why? Did Marika split her initial tree, be it created or inherited as a god, into separate trees, akin to, say, the nameless Namekian and Piccolo in Dragon Ball? Why is the Scadutree seemingly kicking its own butt by forcing sap out? Are the people of the Land of Shadow forcing the Scadutree to provide blessings via the power of sheer resentment? If so, why didn't the same happen to the Erdtree when it stopped providing regular blessings?
Some major things feel like they're lacking the standard level of explanation quality, or even implication quality, that they regularly have in From Software's works, even the main game of Elden Ring.
@@garrulousgoldmask Miquella brings a lot of light at least, and the Gate of Divinity speaks to figuratively dark deeds to give Miquella his power. Either way, I feel the Scadutree needed more answered about it in general.
I always thought we were gonna fight Malenia again, as her true form of godess of rot, giving the clues in her fight (cut content, no "demigod felled" at the end etc...), I even think that they replaced her with Romina... So strange
Plus, the last words of the DLC should have been those of Sir Ansbach : "become a lord, not for gods, but for men"
I religiously consumed every lore video and writing during the base game. The moment I saw Radahn was the final boss for the DLC, I completely closed off to the lore, haven't watched a single lore video about the DLC (besides this one, this late). It is just so uninteresting to make a base game early boss that we already killed as the final DLC boss, with the same weapons, same look, same annoying big figure.
Remember, this is the company that gave us Sister Friede for a DLC ...
"gOdWyNs StOrY iS oVeR"
Bro we literally unalive radahn and mogh ourselves in the main game yet here they are again.
yeah but godwyn is dead dead, soul is gone
@@OneAndOnlyDave117he still reacts if you attack Fia, clearly, he's not dead dead, just dead
@@therogueserafim271 I feel that it’s like a dead bug twitching
In fairness, Miquella realives them, so that doesn't matter. No, the problem with Godwyn is he's actually still able to think and act, to some degree, and they opted to basically just leave that as a glorified easter egg.
Perhaps if Miyazaki gets pressured into doing a sequel we'll get more with Godwyn.
Honestly as someone who puts elden ring as one of his favourites gane ever, i was quite disappointed with the lore of the dlc. I think that one of the best things that the base game did was how they set up the characters before you fight them, you get to know every demigod in some capacity before you fight them, and then when you finally fight them the cutscene and dialogue of the fight put the icing on the cake and make the boss feel like actually well written characters. The characters were also all connected to each other in some way and that added depth to the world, it made it feel more believable. This is also why The Old Hunters is one of my favourite pieces of content, it checks all the marks on how to make the bosses feel more than just video game enemies.
The dlc completely regresses on this philosophy and i just find that to be very disappointing. The only characters that have proper build up to them are Messmer, Bayle, Midra and Miquella, but like this video says Miquella's story is confusing, and all of these characters are completely unrelated to each other. Every other boss is this same exact thing but worse, Romina, Rellana, the avatar, Gaius ecc just feel like normal enemies in a video game without any kind of motivation to fight you, the lore from their item descriptions is cool, but they simply lack anything else to feel more than random encounters, they just pale in comparison to any other character roster from any of their most recent games, and a massive downgrade to base game elden ring which is a shame because the dlcs generally tend to be better.
I agree with this so much! The DLC helped me understand a lot of why I really like the base game. Take a character like Godrick. If he was just, in a room with no buildup, he'd be pretty uninteresting. But Stormveil's ornate golden trimmings contrasted with the decay of the castle do such a good job at characterising him.
Then when you get to him, he demands your respect despite his sickly, mangled appearance. Everyone likes to point out how Godrick is pathetic, and while he is, FromSoft do a great job at making him feel like a menace. He's a deluded maniac who's attained unfathomable strength, it really compels you to want to defeat him, aside from just ticking off the demigod murder list.
I never got that feeling with the DLC, aside from with Messmer (and Bayle and Midra to a lesser extent)
That is a very important point to make. Why do the bosses in SotE fight us? Don't they want to rejoin the Golden Order? Does anything we do affect the state of the Lands of Shadow after we beat Miquedahn? I have no clue, this doesn't seem to affect the main story of the Lands Between, nor the story of the Lands of Shadow...
Ludwig isn't connected to Maria outside of both being hunters, nor does he have anything to do with the living failures. But if we go by thst logic, we can't condemn the dlc bosses for "having no connection" since all of them except for Midra and Bayle were screwed over by Marika in some way. And the demon princes have jack all to do with Midir and Halflight. And Gael doesn't have any connection to any of the bosses outside of association of all of them being subject under Gwyn's rule at some point but that can be said for a lot of bosses. Kalameet isn't even relevant to the plot of his dlc. The only narrative purpose he serves is to give Gough something to do outside of exposition.
@@balaclavakid3905 I got that feeling constantly with the dlc
@@thesnatcher3616 Ludwig is connected to the healing church, therefore being connected to laurence, Maria is connected to all the bosses past ludwig and she has a whole area to build her up.
The other point you made is just a strawman argument. I never said anything about the ringed city, and it doesn't matter anyway because the scope of that dlc is completely different. My major point was about how much worse the characters in the dlc were compared to base game elden ring and your counter argument is "uhhhm, kalameet is not a major part of the dark souls dlc"
"You fight Fia's onlyfans subscribers" lol. I agree 100%. GOATwyn should have been somewhere in the DLC. I mean they had to know people expected that...For Marika's sake the Night of the black knives is the biggest mystery in Elden Ring. Got nothing from that at all in the dlc.
Especially considering the fact that this may be the last piece of ER content ever, the narrative problems extend to the entire game. There are things like the Nox and Marika, the Gloam-eyed queen (and Melina?), Roderika and spirit tuning, etc. that are just never brought up again. It really feels like things being pulled out of thin air rather than From's signature lore diving.
The DLC did no worldbuilding, it just told a very straightforward story. Aside from the Hornsent which are also very very straightforward. Maybe they developed the DLC parallel to the main game in some way and that is why they designed the DLC to not have anything too connected/relevant to the main game?
@@VTWS??? Most of the dlc is deeply connected to the base game. What are y'all smoking
@@VTWS the world building part that works in the DLC imo is the jar saints and what they imply about Marika. That part is super interesting and the only thing I think would've made it stronger is a tiny hint at how Radagon came to be. But otherwise it was interesting. That includes Messmer, the Fingers, Metyr, what's implied with the Greater Will, etc.
Miquella, Radahn and St. Trina (including the Putrescent Knight) is where the bulk of the weakness is. I saw someone speculate that there might've been two DLC at some point (Marika lore and Miquella story) and I get why it feels that way, because there is a sharp contrast in depth and complexity between the two elements.
The cutaway at 12:52 was fkin perfect 😂
ARMSTRONG!
Yeah I think Godwyn was a red herring at this point sadly.
It really makes sense but they did a left turn at the last minute and used Radahn lol
Godwyn is not a red herring. It only is because people ignored everything just to have a fight with him
In order to be a red herring you need significant evidence he was ever a candidate in the first place
Ofc Raddan was controlled as a puppet, the last scene showed that it was only Miquallas’s wish, that’s was the main point of the Final Cutscene :)
A great measured analysis as always mate - good job
Thank you so much mate!
It's a real shame how this all panned out in its execution. Upon revisiting the DLC, it's really quite brilliant how Radahn's reappearance brings full-circle all these different motifs seen throughout the DLC, such as the divine horned warrior, the dual swords that look like horns, the soul of a lion inhabiting a sculpted vessel, the union of god and lord into a single divine entity, et cetera. Not only do I now accept Radahn as the promised consort, but I understand that it really could not have been anyone BUT Radahn as the final boss.
However, the handling of this whole situation in terms of the plot was not ideal, and I don't know of a single person whose first impression of Radahn's reappearance was a good one. I could not possibly have better prepared myself for the lore of this DLC, and even I was utterly blindsided by the revelation, and not in a good way. It really came off like contrived fanfiction. I remember first watching the cutscene, and my only thought at the time was, "the internet is going to be arguing about this moment for years to come."
Like all Fromsoft stories, it makes much more sense on subsequent replays, but sadly, most people only play these games once. I just wish From could've handled this with a bit more finesse, and made a less jarring first impression of it.
@@launcelotdulake8075 The more I think about the Miquella/Radahn connection, the less sense it makes. You start thinking about what characters are doing in the base game and the shattering war and why, and I can’t understand any of it, some of it feels outright incoherent.
finally someome who doesnt just go 'hur the dlc was perfect' and has some good narrative critique. ive BEEN saying that if youre gonna do the weird incestsquared twin princes callback, at least make it make sense. i was expecting or at least hoping for godwyn, or even messmer as miq's consort. so when radahn showed up it was just bizarre. and the way they try to pull off the callback is kinda lame.
Nobody says that. If anything it's community consensus that the lore is messed up/missed potential, etc. As we see in a lot of comment sections in videos of people either talking about the lore or making memes about it.
@@thesnatcher3616 eh, I've seen a lot of dick riding so I guess we've just been in different circles.
@@thesnatcher3616 different circles then ig, ive seen more people defending the lore and the dlc
@neocores Why would something need to be defended if everyone liked it. I assume you meant praise. And just because some people defend the lore or the dlc as a whole or whatever, doesn't mean they think it was perfect. I sure as hell don't. If anything I see that sort of high caliber praise way more for past from dlcs like Ringed City and the Old Hunters by the community.
The more I know about ER lore, more meaningless it's world become. It's just bloat to justify cool bosses and areas. Game first, story latter, as Miyazaki Said. This way of world building worked on small scale, ds, bb... But it does not work in a complex world with complex lore and complex relationships and complex everything. Elden Ring is supposed to be that, but if everything is meaningless and created at time, it's just filler, bloat, the culmination of the popfication of a game genre about the "Soul".
No people just focus on the wrong things. Godwyn hype is what ruined the lore not the dlc
@@janogabor7697 not really. as this video says, it's woefully unexplained, lack of buildup and focuses Miquella's story on Radahn rather than being about himself or his connections to other demigods from the base game.
@@atomskthepirateking2776 I disagree with all of that. Miquellas story is a reflection of Marika. What we learn of Marika is the in lore reason why we must stop Miquella. Also Radahn is built up. I feel like people just ignore most of the things this dlc says, because it's not what they wanted to hear
@janogabor7697 A poorly written reflection and a cheap parallel because they couldn't write anything more interesting. Instead we get a miquella who lost all his smarts from the base game in favor of crying about his consort and wanting to be a God. Marika is so much more meaningful and tragic (even before the dlc) its an insult to even compare the two.
Bad writing ruined the lore not Godwyn hype. Take godwyn out of the equation and the dlc lore still falls flat, no wonder they had to do last minute justifications for a radahn shoehorn. Just look at Gaius, a clearly rushed character to make Radahn look good. Lazily slapped together trash.
I keep thinking that the best outcome is always something new and unexpected for a final boss on a DLC, but if FS really wanted to lean on fanservice, they should have gone all out.
Not taking into account resources and time, it would have been cool if the eventual consort was a result of your actions. Maybe doing Frerya's quests ends up with Radahn being the Promised Consort and doing something like St. Trina's quest makes Malenia the Consort, tapping into the rivalry between the two again. All of this from a narrative POV of course.
Maybe doing neither gives you a regular, new and innovative boss. Giving you options with consequences based on what you want.
I definitely like the idea of Miquella's consort changing! Now that I think of it, I don't think FromSoft has really done something like that before for a boss fight so even if it failed, it would have gotten points for originality.
There was a comment on r/eldenringloretalk that stuck with me: Loretubers don't want to poke too much into radahn and miquella, the literal climax of the DLC, bc it's such a sore topic and a source of so much frustration among lore enthusiasts. Critiquing it risks unveiling the mask of elden ring's "untouchable story" that loretubers such as vaatividya rely on to keep viewers engaged and watching. So seeing you be blunt about your opinion on Radahn was very cathartic, and for the record, yes I agree with you.
To be fair, I don't think some of the loretubers like Vaati or Misschalice act like ER has a perfect story (unless one of them said something to that effect that I haven't seen). I think they just try to make sense of the story with what they're given.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable for content creators to avoid controversial topics out of self-preservation. If anything that’s more indicative of a flaw in the game in question and/or its fanbase than a flaw in the creators.
It’s not that, they probably WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT but can’t find anything interesting to say. Because it’s a very boring straightforward plot that leaves no room for cool theories
@@fatman157 I don't know about now but Vaati absolutely sugar coated Dark Souls 2 before that game came out since he was working with Bandai.
Now DS2 is actually my favorite souls game but Vaati absolutely shilled back then
I completely agree. That last cutscene was a huge letdown.
I’m still ANGRY AND MAD THAT MIQUELLA’S ENDING WAS CUT. WHAT IF I WANTED TO SIDE WITH HIM AND NOT RANNI??????????????????? 😭😭😭😭😭
Honestly the dlc messed up the entire established timeline and created this whole Miquella and Radahn thing out of nothing.
Miquella suddenly doesn’t care about his dear sister. Suddenly he didn’t really need to cocoon himself up, he didn’t really care for his Haligtree. All of a sudden he’s determined to become a god and Radahn was to be his consort the whole time.
“No one saw it coming.”
How does he abandon his body (the one we touch to go to the dlc) to go to the Land of Shadow and still manage to leave “his flesh” behind btw?
Whose body is the one in the cocoon then?
No one will ever know lol
Also, out of the blue my guy Miquella isn’t even interested in his Eclipse Ritual anymore; he doesn’t care about Godwyn who - I might add - is the only character who he ever called “lord brother.”
“As a god he can cure his sister” not even Marika could do that and he can because reasons? “But Malenia awaited his return, ‘his promise’ she says” again: how does godhood cure her? Divine needles? He already made them. We can even use one!
And please, stop with the Velka character type. People are saying the craziest things about the Gloam Eyed Queen. Just show her lol Velka’s rapier = Blackflame Greatsword: a goddess is so badass she wanted to kill gods, she gets unalived and all that remains are scraps of lore. What’s up with this trope, Miyazaki?
Fromsoftware can make mistakes and this is one of them, no issues about it but still. If the dlc needed more time to conclude and finish, then take more time. It’s fine! You’ve been doing this since DS1: you start a project, you run out of time, you ship the game anyway.
As if the Mountaintops of the Giants was to be this plain and empty bc lore. As if you didn’t want to let players fight the Elden Beast with Torrent bc lore, nah, you simply didn’t have the time to implement it as a feature. And what do you know, you fixed it!
Fix your game, it’s fine, everyone makes mistakes lol
Great comment. Everyone acts like either FromSoft never makes mistakes and craft everything beautifully, or they're losing their minds and the DLC ruined the whole game. It's fine to mess up things as long as you learn from them (and in case they can be fixed, then fix them). No biggie.
Yeah the timeline was already messy and while some lore bits are interesting they added further confusion to it all.
He did care about the Haligtree, though. The only reason he isn't there right now is because he was kidnapped. I know there's a theory that he got himself abducted on purpose, but there's no real evidence of this. Plus, it doesn't make sense for all the reasons you outlined.
Why do you think he doesn't care about Malenia? He doesn't mention her at all except to praise her deeds.
I kind of get your points, and even agree to some extent, but I think this whole "Miquella suddenly didn't care about anything" came out of nowhere and there's not real base for that argument.
He wanting to become a God doesn't mean that he forgot about Malenia or the Haligtree. I don't know how anyone came to that conclusion. If anything, we will never truly know what was he going to do since he died 5 minutes after achieving godhood. What we know is that he couldn't cure Malenia with the tools he had at the moment. Malenia's rot was halted with the needles, but that wasn't enough to save her in the long run or even to avoid the spreading of rot through the Haligtree, which is why I think his metamorphosis plan wasn't going to work either. What was left for him to do? Probably his last resort was to follow the path of the Empyrean a try to become a god through the only method that was proven to work: the divine gate.
From Malenia's dialogue, I think it's possible to infer that Miquella gave her some parting words before he left the Haligtree, promising to reunite with her after he achieved Godhood.
Now, you think because Marika or the GO couldn't do anything to cure Malenia, it means that Miquella couldn't do it either, but the thing is that he actually invented something that helped Malenia more than anything: the unalloyed gold, and he created it without being a god and with the limitations imposed by his own curse. How much wouldn't he be able to do with the full power of godhood, free from his curse? Or a least that's how I think he reasoned his plan.
To be fair, doesn't the game say that the eclipse plan FAILED? But then again a dlc where Miquella tries again would have been cool as hell and would have fleshed out two underdeveloped characters at once and would have had a sick eclipse backdrop that would have also served as a nice nod to Ds3, although again, the game makes it pretty clear Godwyn's soul was gone. And I'm not sure how you can really "revive" his BODY since it's sort of integrated into the lands between itself. Dlc suffers enough from weird transformations anyway(miquella in the real world vs shadow realm). If from used Godwyn in some way, I bet we would have got people complaining about how it contradicts what was set up in the base game and how using his body/soul makes zero sense and begs the question on why Ranni couldn't get her own body back. Elden ring lore was controversial even before the dlc launched after all with the likes of Godefroy and all that. Not saying they shouldn't have done this btw. Just trying to add a bit more nuance here. But I do agree this dlc needed more time in the oven. Hopefully they can give it more updates to add more context(cutscenes, updated lines and desriptions) despite them saying they won't make more dlcs. Best case scenario is that all of this ages like milk. I hate Velka characters too
I get the vibe that the DLC is more aout Marikas story than it was Miquella.
Miquellas antics felt more like a sidequest running parallel to us learning more about Marikas origin story.
Thank God you uploaded a video, now I can finally have an opinion again
The ending just needed more context,more explanations on why Miquella really wanted Radahn to be his lord other than”He was really strong&nice”.
Yeah, even an item noting Miquella's disappointment with the viciousness that war naturally entails, and that the Redmanes thus regularly do, would have been appreciated. Miquella seems to have resorted to a feeling he had when he was especially young and naive, and something should have addressed that he had to ignore his better judgment, and not just the broad aspect of him removing chunks of his soul.
This DLC proved to me that fromsoft themselves don't know the story of elden ring. I don't think they know what they're doing or trying to tell, and it's very clear that the game was too big for their narrative style.
There is a novels worth of lore that George RR Martin wrote for this game's creation pertaining to Miquella and all of these other Gods and their motivations that we will almost certainly never see and that just cements the narrative disappointment of this dlc for me. I remember someone actually spoiled "young Radahn" as a boss in this dlc for me at work and I was actually quite excited bc I assumed that he was gonna be the hidden, optional boss and I was so shook when I figured out he was actually the last mainline boss of the dlc
GRRM wrote the backstory. So the story in the game and all the side quests is from/miyazaki. I think honestly that might have been the issue, having the backstory written by GRRM and the current story by M creates so much dissonance. GRRM is so good at writing “B” plots who have fully fleshed arcs, you can feel that with all the schemes so many of the demi gods are pulling only for Miyazaki to cut them all short. In game you can just cut out Mt Gelmir and Rykard and nothing changes while the lore hints at his involvement with Ranni.
Yeah... I don't really like how ambiguous everything is about Radahn and Miquella.
I don't like the nagging feeling of "am I the bad guy for fighting him? Or was I a hero for stopping a brainwashed dictatorship?"
Like.... For once, just tell me what my role was. Either way, I feel bad for Miquella.
Either reading makes him a tragic figure. A fallen hero who abandoned too much of himself. Thus, repeating the same mistakes his mother did.... Yay for generational trauma!
Or... a hero struck down by a greedy monster, who selfishly wanted to be the only one to sit upon the Elden Throne. (Or go to space with their new wife.)
Again, it would have been nice to just KNOW what it was I did.
The dlc made the timeline more confusing and didn't answer much from the base game, godwyn even though it is said by rogier that his death was the reason for the shattering, has very little information about him on the base game
We just know that he defeated fortissax and died
That's it
Its very strange for a caracther that should be one of the most important
Yeah like the timeline was already vague and now it’s even more messy than before. DLC created more issues than it fixed.
there was much more said about him, if you actually paid attention tho
I just want Radahn to speak like at all. I don't even think he grunts. I've seen people say that he's charmed and that's why he doesn't have a personality, but Mohg was charmed and he has a huge amount of personality.
Since we never see Radahn agree to the vow i think he never vowed to be Miquella's champion. It was all one sided on Miquella's part; which makes sense why he sent Malenia after him.
I think you nailed it in the head when you mentioned “setup and payoff” and how they seemingly ignored such a simple & important storytelling device in the DLC.
There was some things that were set up in the base game that didn’t pay off in the DLC. At the same time, there were things that were never set up coming out of nowhere when the DLC dropped.
I used to love and speculate about the lore in ER, but because I was so disappointed with the DLC lore inconsistencies and its ending, I started to not care about the story.
(Why be invested in the world of Elden Ring if the lore and story do not matter all that much?)
I still enjoyed the DLC to an extent, but I think it’s a step down compared to the base game.
(imo, base game is 9/10, while the DLC is an 8/10)
Great video, btw.
what inconsistencies?
@@Sercroc I was referring to the setup and payoff inconsistencies.
You brought up two major issues I myself had with the DLC:
1) It should have been Godwyn instead of Radahn. Miquella was shown in the base game to look up to Godwyn, and was trying multiple ways to help him. So going to the Land of Death to resurrect Godwyn's spirit into a consort would fit Miquella's motivations like a glove; he gets his big bro back, and he succeeds his mother as the new god. Two birds, one stone. Instead, we were robbed of a boss fight with possibly the strongest of the demigods.
2) The memory we find after beating the final boss is a once in a game lore opportunity. It's straight from Miquella's fading consciousness, so we know it's most likely going to be from the past we've never seen as a tarnished, and mostly likely trustworthy as a primary source. It could have shown us Miquella's naked motivations, or an interaction with another character that completely changes our perspective, or even filled in so many different parts of the lore that desperately need elaborating. Instead, we get shown nothing new. What a waste.
Speaking strictly from a lore perspective, I find the DLC a disappointment. It did a lot of good work with Marika, but it ignored a lot of things it probably shouldn't have, and even seemed to retcon some things.
If FromSoft didn't want to put in the work for Promised Consort Radahn, then I definitely agree that Godwyn would have been more satisfying on all levels.
And that's a great point about the memory being such a unique lore opportunity! In the base game, we had something a bit similar with Melina hearing the spoken echoes of Marika (though I do think some of them may have been spoken by Radagon). But even that is just secondhand and not a complete cutscene.
The closest I can think of to directly seeing a memory from another character's POV is in Bloodborne with Master Willem and Laurence. And that scene is absolutely iconic and reveals one of the most important events in the history of Yharnam.
Godwyn would’ve been the biggest retcon of fromsoft history
@Elden-Bear not even close there's multiple set ups for godwyn to come back that wouldn't mess with the base game, with how loose the magic system it would be easy.
@@dvdivine1962 the one argument i keep hearing by denials of godwyn’s eternal death
“just retcon it bruh!”
@Elden-Bear Retcon what? The eclipse and now the gate of divinity are perfect possibilities for Godwyns revival.
"But the eclipse failed" that's what the land of shadow is for, it's a separate physical place so the writers can justify anything there that doesn't mess with the base game.
"But his souls is dead" Only frenzy flame (messmers flame too?) is stated to completely destroy, so his soul can still be out there or whatever. Maybe in the spirit world or some other afterlife mentioned.
I don't even care for godwyn at this point, but to write off possibilities as if ER's world systems is so rigid and stable is ridiculous.
So Miquella's plan was to get kidnapped, get Mogh under his control, fkn die, have his sister go for Radahn, have her kill Radahn(which failed btw we had to do it), then for someone to kill Mogh???, to then ressurect Radahn through Mogh which would mean he had to follow the accord, then to have his called champions burn the shadow, and then ascend. That plan is so bad xD, like it can fail so easily. Why didn't he just ascended with Mogh and trick him to abandon formless mother xd, or do so with his sister, if he wanted Radahn cause he was strong but then had his sister go after him to kill him, wouldn't that make his sister stronger than Radahn xd. And then Godwyn why do so much for him if you gonna abondon him, what with eclipse what with the sword dedicated to him, RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH.
I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective. He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily.
No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready. He just needs someone to kill Radahn which people are trying to do. He charmed Radahn so he doesn't need him to follow the vow.
He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood.
He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq. They seem to have emerged after Miq passed through. Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line, he was so crushed by his mother abandoning him he sided with Miq and put the thorns as a way to defend him.
Hole story felt like a retcon it really makes more sense for nit to have been godwyn
Mogh kidnapping him is not part of the plan IMHO by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land.
Also there’s a lof of shon that touches is needed for her charm to works. It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. He either accept he won’t become god or concoct a new plan. Remember that the stories happened for thousands of years and not a human lifetime
@@yudistiraliem135 "by the fact that the trumpet players already there preparing to welcome the new god of the era and not in the shadow land. " I mean I don't think they can get to Shadowlands, a god arisen there while they were missing ?
"It was his last shot to become godhood by himself without using Marika’s path, and Mogh ruined it. " To be honest I think that could be true, he was asleep so he couldn't control Mogh but after he was taken then he could. The problem with that is, he already sent his sister to kill Radahn indicating that he already planned to have him as his Lord, but to ressurect him he would require a demigod's body, and I don't think he had a spare in his fridge xd
@@specialnewb9821 "I understand the plan as Miq charms Mohg, and sends Malenia to kill Radahn while he orders Mohg to get him out of the tree. Because Malenia probably would not let Miq kill his body, too protective." Yeah that makes sense kind of weird to see Malenia being used as a pawn though..
"He cannot use Malenia as consort because Malenia is a rot-goddess empyrean and she may ascend instead of him during the ritual, even involuntarily." Yeah I can see that, but he ascended before Radahn was ressurected. Miq returened and was like: oh hi bro glad to see you, so he could have done the same thing, also Radahn had Mogh's body and he used blood magic so it's not like Radahn is clean of outer god influance xd.
"No one needs to kill Mohg. He can order Mohg to kill himself at anytime once Radahn is ready." Why he didn't do it then xD (I know game reasons but after we kill Radahn, Mogh should be there dead by your logic) Also I am not sure how far the influance extends to, we see soldiers exploding in his name so I guess that's possible??
"He tried to help Godwyn and failed with the eclipse. That failure convinced him the only path left to actually help was to ascend to godhood." I mean there is one NPC who said that they failed at bringing eclipse but it could have happened in Shadowlands land of the dead xd, it would be nice if the game actually said something about Miq actually failing in the DLC to bring Godwyn. Eclipse is said to keep the destined death away so just omitting it is sad, I mean it's weird that so many people believe it exists and has it's influance while it doesn't.
"He didn't need his champions to burn the thorns. The notes Leda leaves say we need to burn the thorns to follow Miq." We were called to Shadowlands to go to find Miquella why would he do that if he didn't need us? Though you are right "Kind Miquella is bound for the tower of shadow. If we are to reach him" it doesn't say that Miquella can't go through the shadows so I am more on your side here though it doesn't say that he already crossed it, it says that he is still bound to it.
"Perhaps as suggested by the cut Messmer line" well it was cut and the Messmer that we find is pro Marika
I was so disappointed with Radahn being the final boss, I wanted something more centered around Miquella, maybe fighting him alone, but Miquella only ever talks about Radahn and hasn't much personality of his own.
Doesn't help that we didn't meet Miquella prior to this final and only encounter, which makes him feel even more underdeveloped and disappointing. The trailer even "promised" the scene with Miquella lifting the veil and set expectations of interacting with him more that weren't fulfilled.
Base game Miquella felt very different to this Miquella we got in the DLC and I''m not impressed. He makes me feel pretty much nothing, regardless of how you want to interpret him, he doesn't feel evil enough nor does he feel kind enough. "Show, don't tell" isn't really to be found, there is only tell about him from other characters "how kindly he is" or that "he is a monster" but so little show if at all. He just does his apathetic little speech and that's it.
but tha't like his thing, he doesn't care about asnyone (except maybe radanh, godwyn) and everyone is just apawn. remember everything we know about him is told by others giving their take, not the truth.
@@Sercroc He does care about the whole world in a way, why else is he talking about an age of compassion? But even when you see him as just a cold puppeteer, there is so little to him in this DLC (except other people talking about him) that it still doesn't work presentation wise. There is just so little there to have any reaction to it at all.
Compare this to Ranni: We have so much dialogue with her, a whole involved questline etc but the only thing we get from a DLC centered around Miquella is his simp followers but not him.
@@lexiferenczy9695 yes but it's he really is just achild, wants to do good without reallazing aeveryone he's fucking over
Hard disagree that PCR fits the lore. You really have to shoehorn him in, and it feels like a major retcon. It's incredible that they found a way to miss the landing so completely their best game yet. I think the most disappointing part is how the ending destroys the masterfully crafted character of Miquela. They were supposed to be playing 5D chess, but instead they just wanted to be a boss we already defeated. Miquela was somehow not smart enough to realize that throwing away all that made them who they are wasn't going to make the world better, and then it's just another power play like the other demigods. All that, and the boss fight itself isn't even fun to play.
Counterpoint. I feel miquella choosing radahn serves as a form of metanarrative, that fromsoft is quite well known for. Heres my take.
You're supposed to feel dissapointed and betrayed by the conclusion and plot of the dlc, because that's how your character should feel after your character learns everything they could about miquella in the base game.
The only evidence that miquella might have a more evil and selfish gaol is a single item description (bewitching branch) and an offhand comment from the least trustworthy npc (the all knowing) in the game.
All the adverisment, all the definitive lore and the music itself sets miquella up to be the hero of the story because the game is bewitching you, just like how miquella bewitches everyone around him. Him shattering his greatrune and the bewitchment serves to give you the same feeling your character would be feeling. First confusion, (what just happened?) but a new sense of freedom to actually get to the bottom of what miquellas motives really are.
Say if narratively fromsoft chose godwyn or malenia as the chosen consort, the metanarrative of you feeling betrayed would no longer apply because it would show that miquella really IS valiant and cares about his sister/ brother because making one of them his consort would imply he was trying to cure them all the way to the very end. Him abandoning them entirely is a complete betrayal not only to them, but to you, the player who really believed that he was actually committed to being the only good and righteous demigod.
Tl;dr its just very subtle metanarrative that is supposed to make you feel betrayed.
Speaking about the canon answer, neither of them work as Miquella's lord because Godwyn is soulless, and Malenia is an empyrean - like Mick, Ranni, Melina and Messmer - she's alive as well; if you side with Millicent and interact with Malenia's flower you'll recieve a Somber Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone and Miquella’s Needle.
My take is that designing your game's ending to be disappointing on purpose is.... bad
excellent and what i believe is the true artistic intent
This is literature teacher finding deep existential meaning in the colour of door handle level of lore cope.
I was supposed to realize I’d wasted my time caring about any of these characters or the world they inhabit.
Letting us talk to miriel after certain bosses in the dlc could flesh out rellana Messmer radahn and gaius.
I love that idea! From a technical and scripting standpoint, I could see how it could be difficult to have characters in the base game react to the DLC.
But FromSoft could have easily gotten around this by giving us a wholly new character in the Land of Shadow: Miriel's twin Muriel. They could have even made him look like an Orthodox Patriarch as a counterpart to the Turtle Pope.
@@JabronyJoenZ you just reminded me how frustrated I was that Gideon and Melina have literally fucking nothing to say about anything that happens in the dlc. I get it might be hard because you would have to call the actors back in, maybe it wasn't even possible to do so, maybe the actors wouldn't agree to (although they had 2 years at least, so...)
It just feels so immersion breaking and weird. Gideon tells us all about the demigods, and is searching for the great runes, but he has NOTHING to say about the land of shadow, the scadutree, Messmer, or Miquella becoming a literal god? It really cements the dlc having zero connection to the base game, it feels like it doesn't even exist when you're in the base game. I would have loved to hear him explain some stuff to me
I guess the argument would be that Gideon is "canonically" supposed to be dead at that point, and Melina dead or gone. It just feels strange
You said pretty much everything I think. And yes, I wasn't expecting Godwyn's either, even witht he DLC screaming for Godwyn in all it's death themes. Tbh, I don't even see Godwyn defying the status quo of the order of his mother to the point of making such a vow with Miquella and, yes, he could be charmed, but it goes against a vow like Marika and Godfrey did for example - and the whole boss is meant to "honor" Godfrey with his fanboy, Radahn. And not expecting Godwyn, I surely wasn't expecting Radahn. I just didn't want to see that guy AGAIN at all with an excuse made out of thin air. And, honestly, every time someone tries to justify it with some previous connection, it all feels like looking for patterns in randomness.
Finally someone is mentioning the terrible ending and not worshipping fromsoft as always!
I do find it weird that so many players hung on to Godwyn as an active entity in the game. Godwyn's personal story is already over by the time the game starts, always has been. As far as connections between Radahn and Miquella in the base game, take a closer look at Radahn's gear. He has a gold-threaded Haligtree emblem on his cape, and the ornaments on the ends of his bow are shaped exactly like a Miquella's Lily.
I do agree with you that the mystery of who is Miquella's consort should have been more upfront, as a leading question within the main game.
I don't think that's a Haligtree emblem on Radahn's cape. Spiral designs are present on the Tree Sentinels' capes, Leyndell's war banners, Godrick's cloak he removes in his cutscene, etc. The ornaments at the ends of the Lion Greatbow resemble lion manes and tails in Elden Ring's heraldry, both in association with the golden lineage and with the depictions on the Banished Knight Shield and banners.
I was expecting to fight Miquella in his full god form after Radahn as the actual last boss. Similarly to Elden Beast after Radagon. Was disappointed to find out that wasn’t the case.
I believe that Radahn being final boss is perfect: After all, it completely disillusions us with the concept of godhood and mortals becoming gods. It shows nakedly the ways that those with power do disgusting things and expect glory for it.
I don’t want characters who are cheap ciphers for a point, I want characters who have a coherent set of motivations and relationships. If From can’t deliver that they are failing at basic storytelling.
@@societyman6591 sorry man you picked the people who are renowned for literally bringing on archaeologists as consults for what information should be lost or distorted and how because they aren't interested in telling simple, straight forward narratives that you get to know everything about
@@ShadaOfAllThings Can you please ask some of these archaeologists how Miquella abandoned his flesh twice? Or is From Software too sophisticated for their environmental storytelling to have basic coherence on that level too?
@@societyman6591 Sorry you are too dense to realize that what I was getting at is that a detail like two star children of the golden order being potential brotherfuckers, or whatever exactly happened between them, was never going to get outside the royal palaces when it was a key feature of them that you were sworn to secrecy and even silence if you were allowed into anywhere people might overhear conversation like that.
@@societyman6591 ALso like we literally have precident for divine selfcest in the lands between, divine incest is too much for you?
I feel that, when you look at events prior, it becomes painfully obvious that Radahn isnt allied with Miquella by the time of the Shattering War. Sure, he may have made the vow when they were younger, but, for one reason or another, he broke it off.
As for Godwyn...well, considering that he's tied to a questline that can easily be messed up and locked out, it makes sense that he's bsrely involved in the dlc.
14:39 He doesn't know
My theory is that it was never supposed to be Radahn but someone high up shipped them together so hard they managed to bewitch others into making it canon. Also the words " re-used assets" probably helped a lot.
@@luckyowl6432 Are you referring to Consort Radahn as being the re-used asset? Bc he is completely different from the Starscourge in every significant way aside from lore
@@matthiasmelaku7118 Nah, they reused Vengarl from DS2 instead
@@Taikis95 And Sullyvan (again)
@@matheusmillion Sullyvan is so good i don't really mind him being reused tbh
@@luckyowl6432 Miyazaki. He's gone on record stating Radahn is his favorite character in the game and wanted to use him again.
Though I don't like you framing it as a shipping thing. Radahn and Miquella is made very clear to be the wrong thing and very disturbing, not a genuine ship of the two characters.
The end of the dlc made me so disappointed that I just stopped watching lore videos for a while, thinking like if all those mysteries and speculations lead only to nowhere or this, i'm just wasting my time
Same bro, it put such a bad taste in my mouth I just dropped the game for a while. I still like the game but I have no desire to replay the dlc like how I replayed the base game.
only tarnished archeolgist has my interest since he tackles a different aspect of the lore, I look at ER in a different light now after the dlc.
@@zaynehamdan1660 opposite I got every answer I wanted out of the dlc
@@dvdivine1962 I agree, tarnished archaeologist has the power to hook me and the last thing I know, I've been lured into watching half an hour of mesopotamian history
Godwyn glazers in shambles lmao
Thank you for speaking the truth. I don't even want to replay ER for a while, that big was the disappointment.
Same, i've had enough for now
I see Miquella and I simply say would.
That is all, post comment
You mean the forever 7 year old?
I think the reason from software didnt explicitly explain consort radahn's willingness vs coersion is on purpose. Probably to get us to wonder if he consented to this or not - like tou said it changes ghe players perspective of the entire story drastically with either conclusion 🎉 hope this makes sense it is a very from software thing to do.
Oh, so you're the one Micolash spoke of? You're the first, last and only person I've heard say "Kosm" outside of quoting Micolash.
And this ending also lessens the meaning behind the war of the shattering. I wonder how much Miyazaki had to do with this or wzs this like a group think ending?
I feel like they were setting up something bigger with Miquella and St. Trina too, but looking back, they messed up somewhere.
Cutting St. Trina’s original quest was a big misstep and could’ve set her up properly and make her even sadder. The fact that they reused Gloam Knight/Gloam assets for Trina’s area doesn’t sit right with me.
Also baiting us with the cutscene and having us think we’ll side with Miquella is a horrible choice by the marketing team -_-
I’d also like to think the statue is Godwyn with the twins. I like that Miquella respected him.
Miquella having no ending makes me regret buying the DLC collectors edition, but I got a Messmer statue out of it. I guess.
Miquella deserved that Funko figure 😔 games never let us side with the feminine guys. Ugh.
First of all, great video! I especially appreciated the spoiler warning for other fromsoft games as I hope to play them at some point and have successfully avoided spoilers so far.
Personally I think the DLC shows us that Miquella was a tragic hero, he had good intentions but things went south at some point in the shadow realm and he became a monster. To me it isn't unclear because they show that he stripped himself of love, and that he puts all his allies under his enchantment, even if they wish to serve him. This shows that Radahn's motivations have no bearing on what happens to him, Miquella takes his agency.
I do agree that the ending memory is very out of place though, that memory should have had some sort of new info.
Thank you so much! I definitely recommend all of the Soulsbornekiroring games but I think Dark Souls 3 is the best one to start with since it plays the most like Elden Ring.
And that read of Miquella being a tragic hero makes a lot of sense. (And things literally went south since he discarded St. Trina in the Cerulean Coast.)
I'm a madman I'm going to play the Soulsbornekiroring games in their release order, may chaos take the world >:)
8:20 actually weirdly enough you find the second highest concentration of Trina’s Lillies and her sword in Caelid at the Forsaken Ruins. The flowers are everywhere so it didn’t stand out, but the sword’s placement on top of that is interesting. There’s also a ton of them in Liurnia.
Miquella’s Lillie’s are also primarily in Caelid and Liurna.
Someone also pointed out recently the top and bottom ends of Radahn’s bow looks eerily similar to lillies, as does some of the iconography on his cape. It’s harder to tell with these though since there are good arguments in favor of them being lions’ tails.
There’s a bunch of things that add up retroactively but I think the problem is the base game only hints at it with audio and visual queues. The subtlety resulted in the ending feeling like a twist instead of a potential outcome.
I was perplexed by the decision for them to use Radahn. As, the game entirely spoke to us through item descriptions that Godwyn would have maybe been Miquella’s chosen consort. The Golden Epitaph, and all items involving castle sol, made it very clear that Miquella intended to revive and then possibly kill Godwyn outright to give his souls a proper rest. That he was obviously denied due to Ranni’s intrigue. My assumption was, as I believe some also assumed, we would be going to the place where Godwyn’s souls was sent, and somehow killing it there or capturing it to be used at his body under the capital, fusing them or whatever and then fighting whatever amalgamation he has become. I was fully ready for that to be a part of the DLC. I was just left… speechless… but not in a good way when I saw Radahn. I had assumed maybe Miquella would have brought back Godwyn. Radahn just seems… not it.
Godwyn would have made much more sense, and had actual buildup. Any perceived contradictions to the base games lore would be put down to FromSoft’s ambiguous storytelling. No one would be confused or upset. There would be no controversy. It would be thematically relevant. I don’t know why they did what they did, but it definitely “tarnished” my respect for the way they tell stories in their games.
@@LeggoMyGekko godwyn would have made less sense than Radahn
Miquella's goal with Godwyn seemed to be curing the Death Blight, both to rescue those affected by it and to prevent others from being affected by it. Miquella wasn't necessarily hoping to have Godwyn as his consort, and people expected that Miquella was still trying to save the world by solving this. The problems, IMO, are the poor execution of the DLC's reveals with Miquella and a crucial mistranslation in Freyja's dialogue that makes it sound like Radahn's soul was killed.
Only item in castle sol that relates to Godwyn is the eclipse shotel. Everything else refers to the soulless demigod right outside
Godwyn fans have stretched the lore to such ridiculous places and then get mad when it’s confirmed false
@@Kashi-qo8ik You should really watch some of Quelaag’s videos from before the DLC. Then you will understand what I am saying. I’m not going to argue or debate with you, nor will I insult you.
I agree with everything you've said, besides miquella being poorly a written Marika the bottom line is that it shouldn't have been Radahn again.
Radahn would have felt better as an alternative final boss that requires a lot of foreknowledge to unlock. Like how Solaire usually ends up dead by default, but you can jump through several hoops to change his fate to a good ending. 15:48 And I also thought that jar bairn could have been used to accomplish that.
What if the usual ending to the DLC involved Miquella resurrecting some long-dead hornsent hero to be his consort, in order to make amends with their people...
...but if you've given Jar Bairn the innards of Alexander and caused him to leave jarburg, you can meet him again in the shadow realm. And if you talk to him and follow his quest there, you inadvertently end up prompting him to arrive at the gate of divinity, and somehow meddle in whatever corpse ritual Miquella is pulling there, accidentally hijacking it with the flesh inside his body and causing Radahn to be resurrected instead.
It'd certainly feel less like an asspull if the player had to go out of their way to make it happen.
He is literally just a puppet, Castle Sol was built to revive Godwin, when they realized that Godwin could not be revived, this was when he realized he needed The consort to be Radahn,
Radahn had no intentions of being Miquellla's consort, which is why both millennia and your player character fight him in an attempt to kill him.
He was in the way of both Ranni and Miquella, because he loved his dad and was a devout follower of the Golden order. He did not want there to be a new God even himself.
Mogh kidnapped Miquella, And that is what forced miquella to charm him,
Miquella then escaped mogh into the shadowlands,
And it was only after we had killed both of them over the course of the game,
That gave Miquella both the idea and the means to craft his own consort from the body and soul of two of his brothers.
Promised consort is neither radahn or Mogh,
Neither does promise consort have any self-determination or desires of its own.
It is literally just Frankenstein. To put it plainly.
Yeah I agree with you. Also, the vow just seems to be one sided on miquella part and radahn was forced into it. Since, it makes more since in base game even when he was rotted, radahn still held the stars back. Which shows he was fighting against destiny and did not want to be his lord.
I mean, even Dark Souls 2 DLCs' ending was more satisfying, and that says a lot.
It makes perfect sense and is deeply satisfying if you understand the metanarrative of Elden Ring.
Love your stuff man. But imma let the intrusive thoughts out I love people that have speech impediments something about it makes me want to be your friend so bad. I dont know if that’s offensive or not lol
Thanks mate! And no hard feelings!
The main game finale works much better imo. Expecting to fight Marika, only to fight Radagon may be a surprise, but not necessarily confusing. If you aren't in the know, this isn't out of nowhere.
This is even more effective since you might have learned Radagon IS Marika. If Promised Consort wasn't Rahdahn, thay would make MORE sense (as of yet)
I wanted the DLC to be about the Eclipse : /
Actually fair and balanced criticism.
U brought up a lot of really great points man. I thought the dlc was awesome overall, but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t want a little bit more buildup towards the end.
If Miquella was going to turn out to be an antagonist, I think a lot of us thought it would be through bringing back Godywn since there’s just a lot more about all that in the base game if u know where to look rather than his relationship with Radahn, so the shock value of his reveal ends up feeling like “did I miss something..?” at first even if u did piece together that he was coming back through Freyja and Ansbach’s sidequests.
I think once the missing pieces of it all set in and u see how the things unanswered like why Malenia was fighting Radahn fit together, it definitely becomes a lot better overall.
My guy, the vow doesn't have to be agreed upon two parties. Miquella vowed that when Radahn died, he would resurrect him as his consort. That doesn't need Radahn's consent to make. The fact Malenia tries to kill Radahn so that the vow can be honored upholds this notion. If I vow to hunt you down and slap you with a banana irl, that vow doesn't require you to agree to it at all. I think people got confused with the unification between a God and their Lord and associated vow in a marital sense, but that's not the kind of vow being discussed here.
"Now, the vow will be honoured, and my Lord Brother’s soul will return. So that he may be my consort.”
Expecting Radahn to believe a naive child's promise of ressurection and lordship, to the point where in a world where death conceptually is removed, Radahn would allows himself to die, is not a concession that should be considered.
I'm not going to sit here and claim I wish it wasn't fleshed out more, almost every storyline Miyazaki has crafted in the past decade has left me wanting more. I think the wait for the DLC ultimately soured the experience for a ton of the community. The fans had more than two years to come up with their own DLC in their heads, and when reality didn't meet their expectations, the community cries foul.
Miquella's one constant is his great ambition and the detrimental inability to see them to a meaningful end. He might've been the demigod for the backdrop the community had for the most anticipated DLC in recent memory, but it's important to remember that this is NOT the story of Miquella. This is the tale of the Tarnished of No Renown, and Miquella's just another chapter in their story. If you stop separating the base game story and the DLC as individual pieces and you consume them as a 1 volume story(like it's intended to be) the DLC imo becomes much less abrasive.
But Miquella does say “If we honour our part of the vow[…]” mentioning “our part”, implying Radahn had his part to play in the vow/deal!
@@lorisceleste1860
"Lord Brother. I’m going to be a god. If we honour our part of the vow, promise me you’ll be my consort. I’ll make the world a gentler place.”
If Radahn was part of the vow, the second half of the sentence would be pointless. The statement is an attempt at a quid pro quo. "If we do x, promise me you'll do y" The vow has to be completed in order for Radahn to uphold his promise. "We" is not referencing Radahn, the sentence wouldn't make sense for what we know the vow to encompass.
"Expecting Radahn to believe a naive child's promise of ressurection and lordship"
Why wouldn't Radahn "believe" Miquella's promise? He literally does resurrect Radahn. He literally makes him his lord.
"to the point where in a world where death conceptually is removed, Radahn would allows himself to die, is not a concession that should be considered"
Radahn "allowing himself to die" isn't some crazy thing he would never do. He made an oath of honorable death with Jerren. The removal of Destined Death isn't relevant here at all- the demigods are well aware of their own mortality by the time the Elden Ring is shattered. "Radahn would never agree to die" doesn't make any sense, much less to assert that the possibility of his assent should never be considered.
@@steigland It's not "quid pro quo" he's just stating the terms of the agreement. "Our part" of the vow is Radahn's death in battle and subsequent resurrection, his part is becoming Miquella's consort. He's clearly talking TO Radahn here, unless you think Miquella is delusional psycho who just mutters heartfelt prayers to himself for no reason.
@@blackeddeath
You cannot use facts obtained centuries into the future to hand waive away the notion that the demigods lived in a world where death is not a threat to their existence. Destined Death and the removal of it from the world is the singular most impactful thing that happens in the story, so when discussing the death of a demigod and what that actually means, yeah it actually does matter. The one time any of the demigods had a brush with death was Godwyn, and yet you have a hard time believing why they might not be super thrilled about the notion of dying.
People love bringing up the death pact with Jerren and love to conveniently leave out the fact he's rotting away from the Battle of Aeonia. Having a friend promise to kill you when you finally lose your faculties due to Eldritch Chlamydia doesn't mean he was willing to die for Miquella.
I never said his assent to lordship shouldn't be considered. The vow was *to* Radahn, "If I can bring you back to life, promise me you'll be my consort"
It's grammatically messy if you're ascribing responsibility to Radahn on both sides of the statement.
"Hey bro if you help me with painting my house, promise me you'll me mow my lawn after" is the jist of what you're arguing for.
It's absolutely quid pro quo. If I do something for you, you do something for me. A favor for a favor. That's precisely what Miquella's describing. Also stop pretending that Miquella doesn't have a "I'm willing to nuke a continent for my brother" loyal twin - "we" could very very easily be referencing the twin prodigies and the statement still holds up soundly
I’m pretty neutral on the matter. I like that radhan got to have a rematch without the madness of slowly decaying but I agree it should have been done better. I’m hoping that this is a sign of more to come because if this wasn’t even hinted at in the base game imagine what other relationships are happening behind the scenes
So what you're saying is we missed the best possible boss... Jarscourge Radahn... eh, eh?!
Ngl replacing his second phase meteor attack with him throwing great pots would have been amazing.
Easy to miss? Theyre in pretty prominent areas and Freya even calls to you in the maybe one instance shes somewhat hard to find.
The lore around Consort Radahn is questionable, but I still think he's the best and most fun FromSoft boss I've fought
Radahn being his consort just makes no sense in my opinion. Everything in the main game pointed to Godwyn being Miquellas consort and there being an eclipse that would return godwyns soul, assumedly to mohgs body. That is the final boss I wanted. I will never believe Radahn was originally intended to be this way.
Talented moder made a Melenia, the Promised Consort with custom animations, new skins, and music. We actually get to fight a fully restored Melenia the valkyrie.
I tried to play the dlc a second time and just couldn’t do it. There just wasn’t anything else to do or discover. I found myself board and that ending was so disappointing. I avoided spoilers for months and just couldn’t believe that was it.
I have to respectfully disagree on a lot of these points. As a community we could use more self reflection on our assumptions and feelings rather than project them onto the intentions or competence of the author. And the Godwyn story and the response to PCR is a prime example of all these unchallenged, uncritical feelings coming to a head and us looking for validation in the shared disappointment rather than reflecting on why we should have even felt such disappointment to begin with.
FromSoftware has a long history of major bosses with no real narrative buildup. Everything here about the lack of Radahn mentioned outside of one or two missable NPC quest lines easily applies to Orphan of Kos, Gael, Manus. And even in their base games, our final bosses are often barely mentioned outside of maybe one NPC and maybe, if we’re lucky, the opening cinematic. You could completely miss Miriel and Goldmask in the game and be left wondering why Marika suddenly turns into a male redhead named Radagon. You only really find out what the Nightmare of Mensis even was about after you kill something called Mergo’s Wet Nurse with little context on who Mergo was or what the Wet Nurse even is. Even the most straightforward end bosses like Gwyn or Allant are surprise encounters we aren’t told we will fight and kill them until we’re already doing it, unless you manage to not place the Lordvessel as soon as you get it.
Point is, narrative flow and buildup are not and were never really a thing in these games. It’s all atmosphere and journey, and the narrative is something we piece together after the fact as we’ve always done. The expectation for Godwyn and Miquella was a strange craze to witness, a fan theory on some very limited evidence and most likely disappointment that the Mending Rune of Death quest wasn’t that grand. Had FS actually delivered on this expectation, it would have been unprecedented in a number of ways, and we should definitely take away from it a good lesson not to jump onto a popular fan-theory driven bandwagon again.
I also wish the ending to Fia’s quest wasn’t just another ancient dragon fight after a simp battle royale. It’d be nice if there was a major update they completely reworked it, just like it’d be nice if we got way more about Loran and the catacombs. But lore was only ever a fascinating vehicle to suck the attentive player into their world building, not the actual point of these games or why most players enjoy them. And as a vehicle to deliver yet another cryptic series of questions, PCR and Miquella’s vow is as good as anything else FS has delivered. Completing a story, filling in gaps, these were never in the cards since Demon’s Souls never gave us the broken archstone DLC.
I think we should've got a better ending. I don't think that cut scene was really fitting for an ending. I think it would have been better for one of his memories at the cross or something. But to be our reward for fighting a boss that literally had to get adjusted, because its hit boxes were inherently broken and unfair. Is absolutely wild and mid
So I believe the Amber Starlight and Ranni’s questline sheds some light on Radahn and the nature of fate and mind control in the world of Elden Ring.
The Amber Draught that is concocted with Starlight from a shrine to Miquella fails to alter the fate of Ranni’s doll form. It seems that the “fate that is written in the stars” is something that Carian sorcery is able to harness.
Selivus’ efforts to subjugate Ranni are an interesting parallel to Miquella’s own attempts to charm Radahn.
The Lucidity spell and the focus stat are examples of how a sorcerer can abate forms of mental control so it can be reasonably assumed that the Carian family, which has a divine connection to the stars, also has a capacity to resist things that could alter their fate.
Killing Radahn and being present when his soul is revived could then be a way to weaken him enough for Miquella’s charm to fully function.
Sweet and sour feelings for this DLC.
Awesome level design, but bosses coming from nowhere: Rellana, Gaius, Romina. They don't make any sense and are just additional content because, well no reason. Just adding bosses completely far-fetched with the main story. They just don't fit at all here. And I disagree with Rellana and the three sisters. Ranni is a daughter, doesn't make sense, and nothing tells us that the towers are contemporary to Renalla/Rellana, the towers could be ancient.
Radahn-Miquella : absolute disappointment. Radahn died by our hand, just move on. let's not waste time in describing the fight, absolute absence of fun and pure garbage just here to frustrate and destroy the player, and add a lot of show off, because, well... I don't know. I still remember the first time I killed Consort Radahn. My reaction was : "that's it? Is it done? Where is the fight with Miquella? Don't tell me the DLC ends with this terribly badly designed boss..."
Miquella is presented as a genius, but he failed everything he attempted. Presented as almost absolute, kind, terrifying, we have a Serosh/Lorian version of him. What a bad joke.
And let's also add a clickbait seeing him on top of Torrent in DLC preview. Never seen another reference of that in the story or DLC.
Finally we have the strongest demigod Radahn, being a joke twice, once as mindless, once as a puppet. And the genius Miquella a complete failure.
In the end, this DLC story makes no sense at all to me, almost like if the DLC ignored parts of the main game. I won't pretend I am a lore-expert, but all I see are parts of a story poorly patched together...
Shadow of the Erdtree has some of the best and worst of Fromsoft's writing and design habits. Ironically for being the Miquella DLC, he was one of the least enjoyable parts of the dlc. Hell his followers are far more interesting than him. The Marika lore, Messmer and his followers, the depravity of the hornsent, and just Bayle with Igon are vastly better than Miquella and Radahn. Just felt...bad? Like for the biggest most grandiose and highly anticipated dlc in recent memory the story felt flat and had a deeply unsatisfying conclusion that for me soured the experience. I beat the dlc once and know that I have no desire to fight the super incest bros again.
Gaius actually gives great insight with his armor set description. Because by establishing the connections between Messmer, Gaius, and Radahn as close brothers means they were all against the Hornsent. The same Hornsent who are now protecting Miquella. Why did Miquella abandon Melania? Because both her and Radahn learned from the Dancing Swordsman which was the same style used to rage war. Which is why Melania and Radahn is much more interesting fight because they have the same swordplay ideology but fueled by different motives and elements. Back to my original point. Messmer campaign was to rage war on all the Hornsent because of their history with Marikas people. Radahn and Gaius were very close to Messmer so it's very reasonable to deduce after the Shattering it wasn't a Free for All but a strategic civil war amongst the demigods started by Miquella. How do I know it was Miquella? Because Miquella abandoned the Order, Radogan, and Marika long before the shattering. When Miquella hated his own fathe/mother Marika broke. She resented her godhood because now her own children hate her. How miserable life must be to be as a hated god...? Hence the Shattering. She couldn't fix Melania and have Miquella forgive her. Miquella even couldn't forgive her for avenging her own people and then went on to become their new savior. That's the story of Elden Ring. This is about what it's like to become "Abandoned God".
"Do you think God stays in heaven because he to is afraid of what he has created?"
Self Hatred is a huge theme in Elden Ring.
Next to most narrative games one could say they’ve botched all their endings. I’ve never felt a feeling of reward from their endings. That part comes from the journey itself.
Did you somehow miss malenia blooming specifically to send him to Tricky Miq? Her whisper? Whether he agreed long ago or not, Radahn was unwilling.
I see Miq as someone who has given in to despair. The only way is to control everyone. He has failed repeatedly and abandoned trying to help. Since my main is a moonveil, and I chose Ranni as a ton of players did (and from KNOWS that) Ranni wants end interference and create an age of man reasoning on their own. Faith in humanity. So it was that hope/despair contrast in the real last battle of the shattering in the dlc. So it became EXTREMELY meaningful to me.
I agree about Messmer. And the ending cutscene that adds nothing. It should have been a cutscene of the sibs all together and Miq asks Radahn for the vow, Radahn promises and then they all laugh. Happier times and hints Radahn didn't take it seriously.
My biggest gripe with the whole DLC is still the total lack of GEQ, Melina and Torrent related things, particularly the Torrent stuff. Like, why is he important at all besides being our car? Was Miquella really his previous owner? If so, what spurred their separation? How did he end up with Melina? What even IS he, cause there ain’t any lore about him anywhere either part of the game.
I love this game, and the DLC is awesome from a gameplay perspective, and the stuff surrounding Messmer and Marika’s connection to the Land of Shadow is peak storytelling to me, but I personally think it might be the weakest FromSoft DLC to date. Artorias showed us several of Gwyns most prominent warriors mentioned through the story, as well as the origin of the Abyss and the power held by the Dark Soul.
The 3 crowns of DS2 showed us other kingdoms that rose and fell to the cycle as alluded to by other characters (the addition of Aldia helped connect them all even more) and even effects the ending in a minor way if you collect all the crowns.
Ashes of Ariandel provides us information about the origins of the painted worlds, but also how they work in the sense of progressing from one world to another as well as how each one seems to have a specific purpose. The Ringed City finally brings us face to face with the titular Dark Soul as well as shows us what happened to the original Pygmies who possessed the Dark Soul and even shows us the future of the world should it be left to fester in the same endless cycle it’s been trapped in for who knows how long.
Shadow of the Erdtree does give us some good lore tidbits, but nothing central to the main plot of the DLC reveals its. We learn that the Two Fingers never communed with the Greater Will, only with Metyr who never received any messages from the Greater Will either. We learn where Queen Marika came from as well as how she became a god, but learn nothing more of her relationship with Radagon, and we learn of the spurned son who was never wanted.
Only the first thing is really relevant to anything that happens in Elden Ring, the others are just…backstory really.
As someone who figured out Miquella's plan before I got to the reveal, including him wanting to revive Radahn with Mogh's body, I loved it. It felt so satisfying to have solved a 2 year long mystery, which involved almost the entire plot of the game.
I think it's a bit strange to criticize the story for it not being "clear", when the whole point of From's stories is that you're supposed to figure it out. Especially since Elden Ring's story is much more focused on its mystery, and how most of its plot points are connected.
In previous games, most of the plot and characters are only loosely tied together, mostly through themes, but Elden Ring's story has most of its characters directly involved.
I find it so funny when people call the idea that Miquella wanted to grant Godwyn a true death for the same reason he wanted us to kill Radahn, headcanon. “Headcanon,” as loaded of a term as it is, is quite literally the way the games’ lore and narrative are supposed to be interpreted. You’re supposed to come up with your own stories based on what you’re being shown & told, and run with it.
But people, for some reason, are so fixated on what’s objectively confirmed, or what’s presented to us outright. Anything theorized outside of what we know for sure, is treated negatively. People use “headcanon” and “speculation” like they’re derogatory terms or something, like the opinion is invalid somehow simply because it’s headcanon or speculation.
In a game where it’s confirmed by the devs themselves that the full narrative is intentionally obscured or left vague enough for us to have to fill in the blanks, by restricting your theories solely to what can be easily proven in-game, you’re actually further removing yourself from the truth.
It’s like if I were to show you a picture of a bird in the sky, but there’s no clouds or sun or moon or stars in the background, so you say “well we don’t know for sure if the bird is in the sky, there’s nothing there proving that’s the sky in the background” when you could just use common sense and look at the feathers and wings.
I personally think that "the vow" is potentially referencing the dialog Melina gives you at the battlefield grace near Leyndell. How Marika wanted her children to become lords or gods and not amount to sacrifices. The whole "promised consort" stuff is more open ended, tho.
3:07 I think that is what fromsoft was going for. Miquella used the eclipse to cement Godwyn as the prince of death, Radan is a puppet and Miquella is not smarter or better than any other of the competing demigods. I think we all gave Miquella too much credit because he appears like a child, and everyone talks about him positively, but he was behind the night of the assassinations. It is his pride in believing that he can simply be better than the golden order without having to make any of the concessions that the golden order made to become what it is that blinds him. It’s like any political activist who just wants to slam shot their ideology into being without any consideration for how to sustain it.
The lack of connection between Messmer and Miquella maddens me. There are literally pieces of Miquella IN the Black Castle... and there's nothing significant connecting him and Messmer? Messmer could have been even more proof for Miquella that Marika was fundamentally cursed, the interactions between them literally write themselves...
I do agree, the game misses and important part in delivering information. I did not expect to see R as consort, I Also hoped to see more about Mogh too in the consort appearance, but It Is what It is and we have got what we have got. My personal impression as soon as I saw him was: "uhm, really? Uhmmmm" then he flatted me 🤣
11:25 the theme that links all of the important bosses from the Elden ring DLC together are outer gods. In the base game, outer gods are a legitimate concept to be explored question. In the DLC we come to find that the outer gods aren’t real, Scarlet rot, frenzied flame, the Golden order, even the fingers, all of them can bleed, they are not in some land far away, they are in a land that people were forced to forget to reinforce the power of the golden order, but even this was in vain
I would've been fine with the Promised Consort Radahn ending if I got to fight the main man Miquellester himself
To me it makes sense that Godwin cant be his consort because his death is linked to ranni, and since her soul yet lives his body cant die, and it appears that the secret rite requires a lord who is already dead for some reason. But I agree radahn as promised consort comes out of nowhere and overall the storytelling in the dlc doesnt really hang cohesively or flow well at all. Even for minimal story telling there isnt much to make everything hang together very well. Especially when two of the remembrance bosses dont have any lines at all it's a little disappointing