@@angelalewis3645 so your saying that he decided to focus more on Love and helping others more than debating about what is right and wrong? lol Thats a good One!!!
I wanted to add one thought regarding the long term impact of such movies. As latter-day saints, we have had the cringey pleasure of one of the most popular broadway musicals for a long time be a master class in LDS misrepresentation. The church has leaned into that putting actual missionaries outside the theater, and I know at least two people who ended up joing the church after viewing the musical. God can teach people in even such circumstances.
20:10 This is a terrific conversation. I would add that as Latter-day Saints, we take both our sacramental and baptismal ordinances very seriously. They must be spoken precisely or they must be redone. As a member of the LDS church, I am very sensitive to misrepresentations of any faith in film and can usually spot them whether intentional or not.
Yeah I felt like her contrast was a little inaccurate. How many sacrament meetings have we sat through where the Priest had to redo the ordinance several times to until the words were correct?
I think her point was we do the checking right then and there not go back years later to hunt people down because it was done wrong and not caught at the time.
I almost don't want to see either movie because of the intentional undermining of people of faith, which is clear across both movies. It is so unlike something like Cabrini, which was such a faith promoting movie with such a profound message of overcoming predjudice and trials which was funded by Angel Studios (a studio founded by LDS people) that I've just decided to cut stuff like heretic and conclave out of my life. I don't want to fund movies that undermine faithful people.
@@stevecooper7883 Doubt is just a thing that happens as part of each person's spiritual life. We occasionally reexamine what we believe and what it means to our lives. I don't know how literal much of the Old Testament is, and that's not a big deal because there's spiritual value in it to help me understand myself, God, and the relationship we have.
@TheMightyJor k I don't know you and so I'm not going to trust you. I've listened to the script being read for heretic, so I don't need to see it. So many movies, in general, are a waste of time, I'm not here to see every single one of them. These have not met the threshold of good reviews for my time to be spent on them.
21:38 actually… if an ordinance is done wrong you have to repeat it. That’s why you have witnesses to certify an ordinance was done right. Think of a baptism. I’ve seen a baptism be repeated seven times until it was fully by immersion. I’ve heard sacrament prayers be repeated three times because they were not said right.
I believe you are both right. If a mistake is noticed, the ordinance is repeated. We must do our best to complete the ordinance correctly. However, if a mistake is not noticed, but evidence comes out later about an ordinance that was done imperfectly, the ordinance is rarely repeated. It is possible that all these ordinances with mistakes will be repeated during the millennium, but we treat it as valid.
If baptism, the sacrament or any "ordinance " is done /said wrong it is re-done. It is VERY important. We are actually a lot like the catholic Church in that respect.
I heve seen hundreds of missionaries of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and talk with them. Even had them at my dinner table. They don't act at all like portrayed in this movie Heritic. They bring the message of Christ.
I've had hundreds of Mormon missionaries (and Jehovah's witnesses, and churchy people in general) visit my home and have talked with them, too, and I find the characters in the film to be pretty accurate as far as young, inexperienced, excitable kids go. Then again, I'm not religious, and I prefer characters to be realistic and relatable rather than Perfect Models of Christ. Could've done without the cartoonish villainy of the atheist character, tbh.
I am also a member of The Church. If there is an element of *_"holy envy"_* that I have for The Catholics it is for their K-12 schools. Two of our LDS grandaughters attend one here in a small city of western PA. (Incidentally , I also admire the leadership of Archbishop Carlo Vigano for the way he speaks/writes against evil.) My wife and I enjoyed Cabrini. She was one tough woman! _I never knew._ The genre of horror is useless to me. But, I might watch Conclave. Knew nothing of it. I'll see the trailer for sure!
It's literally verbatim addressed in the film. They tell him they cannot enter the home without a woman present, he lies to them and says his wife is inside. Since they are fairly young and naive kids in general (made clear it's not because of their faith but because they are young) and Hugh Grant has a naturally friendly face, they trust him and go in.
Always like your stuff! Two things, it’s always the most senior Apostle. The order is very important and divinely crafted. It felt like you portrayed it as less organized than it is. Second, we’re very particular with our ordinances, on my mission there were several baptisms I had to re-do because of faulty authority or faulty paperwork. Maybe not at the level we aren’t on the level Catholic faith but we take the accuracy of the ordinances very seriously.
As a latter-day saint, I haven't seen either movie. I'd be more interested in Conclave personally as I don't really enjoy horror movies. I just don't like to spend money at the boxoffice to support movies that are disrespectful to faith generally. I don't have to be Catholic to see where conclave is going.
Conclave is not disrespectful. Anyone telling you this has either not seen the movie or lacks critical thinking. I don't know if I've ever seen a movie that shows such respect to the Catholic faith. Most of main cast grew up or are still Catholic.
@@blackblake3658 Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but to suggest that any disagreement with your opinion is ill-informed is well... I'll let you choose your own word. Do a simple google search and you will find many who disagree. I feel confident you are not the arbiter for what is or is not respectful to all catholics. But I'm glad you were able to pull something of value from the movie anyway.
I'm a lapsed Catholic and Conclave genuinely inspired me to try returning to church. There's a beautiful homily early on about the danger of certainty and the important of doubt, because without doubt there is no need for faith. I watched it with my Catholic mum and we both loved it, both as an examination of the church as an institution, and as a work of cinema and storytelling.
The persecution complex is so wild. Heretic was amazing. After 44 years of Mormonism, years of working in the temple and being active and faithful, I found it very accurate and very smart.
I will not watch Heretic because I have known missionaries who have been attacked on their missions, and I do not want to support it. I watched Conclave. Had I known the ending, I would have not watched it out of respect for my Catholic friends.
But to reject the ending is to pretend people aren't born with that condition. They are. Conclave was more respectful of Catholicism than the faith is treated by Catholics.
I think Heretic is terrible. Zero interest in seeing it. My reason is not because I'm a member of the church, which I am, or that it's sacrilegious, which it may be. I hate that it introduces more people to the idea of entrapment of sister missionaries. If even 1 unstable person is inspired to do something terrible to missionaries, than the movie made the world a worse place. Apply Moroni 7:16-17
Two things seem to me to be key in looking at Hollywood and religion. First, Hollywood knows how to tell a story and telling a story well gains considerable influence in society. Churches could learn a good deal about storytelling and its importance from Hollywood. Second, a good portion of Hollywood is made up of people who are at odds with traditional values and religious beliefs. I suspect that is because many actors are part of communities that have a beef with religion (e.g., LGBT) or have been disappointed by religion. Put these two factors together and churches have a formidable opponent to deal with. I personally think Christians need to learn to maintain the twin virtues of charity/compassion/understanding and truth/conviction while telling our story in a powerful and winsome way and finding alternative media to get that story out. Trump’s recent campaign (regardless of whether or not you support him) shows that the latter strategy of getting the word out can be carried out with considerable effectiveness. Also very good dialogue. You should do this more often. As I (and at least one LDS scholar) have noticed, Latter Day Saints have more in common with Catholicism than either would think. More especially, the LDS Church is often times more Catholic than Protestant. One thing about the validity of Catholic sacraments. St. Augustine countered the Donatists by saying that the faithful congregant who unknowingly partakes a sacrament from an unworthy priest still receives the intended grace. The movie’s situation strikes me as being in a gray area that would make for an interesting discussion. Merry Christmas to you all.
I totally agree that Christians good learn a great deal about storytelling from Hollywood. I'm embarrassed more often than not with movies from Christian-based origins. Although, I must say that Hollywood is falling into the same trap as they preach wokeness in many movies now.
I love interfaith camaraderie! Thanks to both of you. I’ve seen trailers for both films, and usually just feel discouraged by the negative portrayal from Hollywood. So appreciate this type of commentary from a faithful perspective
I mean, I was dunked four times when I got baptized because my dad kept messing up. So its still important to do the ordinance correctly. Also, we do the sacrament prayer several times if its said wrong
Conclave might even be a worse interpretation. I heard spoilers for each show; after which I didn’t want to watch conclave but I did want to watch Heretic . Might be a little LDS bias, but I think mostly it’s because Conclave’s message seems so openly opposed to the faith while Heretic toes the line a bit more. Idk 🤷♂️ just my thoughts
Heretic doesn't "toe the line" at all, the cartoonish villain serial killer is a crazy, narcissistic atheist who is ultimately overcome by two teen girl missionaries who beat him by being clever, challenging his claims and beliefs, and sticking to their faith. Idk why religious folks are so insistent that this is somehow offensive to _the faithful_ when it's the _atheist_ who is portrayed as a zealot and a psychopath. :|
@ while I see what you’re saying, and I’ve heard this point being brought up a number of times, I don’t think this argument always holds up. I’ll explain; It’s often the case in many movies that the “bad guy” or antagonist can be evil while still having valid causes or arguments. For example Killmonger from Black Panther is an extremest murderer but he is fighting for the oppressed and wants Wakanda to use its power/technology/resources to help the world. In the end, Killmonger is defeated but Wakanda does adopt many of his ideas to help solve world issues. My example is just a dumb simple one, but my point is that it’s an oversimplification to say bad guy wrong about everything and good guy 100% right about everything. With all that being said… I still haven’t seen Heretic. I’m waiting for streaming. Thank you for the insights. I will go in with an open mind and try to analyze the movie without bias. I have heard the movie does a fair job of showing both sides fairly… presenting valid arguments while leaving the door open for faith. Thanks for the comment 👊
The truth is I won't be seeing either of these movies. I think that Hollywood has got to try to get closer to reality when they try to show religion. But of course books are written and then movies are written.
Erm actually 🤣. Jasmine, at 20:55 you start talking about how Latter-day Saints believe that misperformed ordinances can be overlooked. There are certainly Latter-day Saints that believe this, but it is NOT doctrinally accurate. Take the LDS sacrament (like communion, for those who are not LDS), for example: If those blessing the sacrament aren't Priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders...Void. Bored of the same old words, and you want to use your linguistic skill to liven up the blessing prayer a bit?...repeat it correctly. Are you performing the sacrament in a situation without the Bishop's approval...it's like it never happened. All ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ are performed by authority from Priesthood keys, and they must be repeated, by the correct authority and in the right way, if they were done improperly in order to "count". That's the whole point of what we claim as a church: A restoration of Authority to perform saving ordinances on the earth. The exactness of ordinances is so central to our doctrine that we even perform these ordinances, in proxy, for those who have died. Even for something as trivial as the ordinance not being witnessed or recorded properly.
Honestly, my takeaway from your reviews of heretic (that I’ve seen) is that it’s way more accurate then I expected it to be (like they actually tried instead of relying on hearsay), despite how you describe it as not being true at all 🤣 Idk compared to other forms of media it appears to have paid a lot more respect then I’d expect a horror movie to. I honestly interpret the inaccurate parts as just being the fetishization of the naïveté of lds missionaries (particularly the girls), like everything that sounded like a poor portrayal was somehow related to sex. Which as woman who served a mission, there was definitely at least one negative experience with a creepy kid who I think got onto that side the side of the internet that fetishized religion. I also think that’s why sister missionaries were chosen to portray the characters instead of elders. Still not great, but I would categorize that differently than being inaccurate. That being said I will definitely still not watch it because one, I don’t like horror movies, and two, as someone who once was a sister missionary who has had a couple experiences of men being visibly upset when we would not go into their home since they were alone (one of which openly stated the rule makes sense since he has “evil thoughts” sometimes 😳, there’s only one kind of evil thoughts you can have in this context), that movie literally plays out some of the worse possibly fears a sister missionary could face.
Catholic or Mormon or whatever, it doesn't really matter. Fun fact: those who are called by Christ are all "spiritual Jews. Not my words. Also, Heretic was blasphemy to common sense and values and everything in between. It was a gory, violent, disgusting portrayal targeted at misrepresenting the LDS community. And then this Catholic conclave film, same idea, but less gory. My question is: as Christians, should we allow Hollywood to produce such aberrations of a film? I am genuinely asking. They would NEVER produce a film belittling Muslim faith, no chance! We need to realise who it is that they are targeting.
My question is how many Popes and Cardinals in history had any strong Religious beliefs of any kind good or bad right or wrong? I wouldn't generally go to a Cardinal or Pope to find a man with strong Religious Convictions they seem more interested in Poltics than in God for the most part throughout history. It would not surprise me that with a little research you could easily find Popes and Cardinals that didn't even know basic Catholic Theology of the kind that a God-fearing Catholic family would teach their teenage children.
I don't know if thia has been addressed but... 1) bothe actresses who portray the Sister Missionaries were raised LDS but no longer practice the faith 2) one of the screenwriters, Bryan Woods, states that he "married into a mormon family" which sounds like his wife may no longer be practicing. Both screenwriters were featured on a recent episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I could only make it thru the firat 14 mins of the podcast. The host is an ex-mo and he sadly misrepresents our doctrine also. th-cam.com/users/liveWcHEA_d25uQ?si=8EbIUY5Fh5J1_RuC
Auch an incoherent argument in Heretic. If there is no objective morality, then terms like "good" and "evil" are meaningless. Doing "good" things for others has no value under such a worldview.
"Objective good and evil" has been discussed ten trillion times for the past 6,000 years. The most common response to your "argument" from the non-religious is that they do "good" things for the sake of it, whereas you might only do "good" things because you expect a reward or fear punishment. In which case, were your actions truly "good," or were they self-serving? I'm not arguing this, I'm telling you you were not prepared for this argument, despite your false confidence.
Also.....VERY strict rules about entering a home with a single man. Just wouldn't happen unless they are breaking the rules or it's an extreme situation. I get it was raining.....but big woop....we would just go home. We would never talk about porn or condoms etc. Not a conversation that would happen.
It is literally addressed verbatim in the film. The two girls ask if an adult woman is home and explain that they absolutely cannot enter a home without an adult woman present. Hugh Grant's character lies to them and says his wife is home and offers them treats he claims his wife just made. The two girls believe him because they are pretty young and trusting in general, and also because he has the trustworthy face and accent of Hugh Grant.
Matthew 10:34 Do not think I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a persons enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.whoever finds his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Ugh. Fiction not being perfectly accurate? Shocked! Everyone being offended about things that are in make believe movies are wild. Anyone remember any of those member made overdramatized movies made? Even utchdorf can laugh at himself by saying he went and watched the play "book of mormon". Lighten up and enjoy fiction.
49:41 a purely material world is not one worth living in?!?! Are you for real?? Do we need to explain our desires and inclinations? Not really. Atheistic or agnostic life can ve as rich or as poor in experiences a a religious one. Atheistic views of Richard Dawkins don't preclude him from enjoying poetry, seeing the beauty, experiencing feelings. If you believe it's a lesser way to live a life , just state it as your opinion, not a universal truth.
They literally believe it's a universal truth, though. They quite literally cannot comprehend a life without faith having any meaning. It's like asking a colorblind person to think of something red. And they feel the same way about people who are incapable of feeling "faith."
It’s actually about the difference between religion and atheism. The fact that the missionaries are LDS provides a starting place for examining the rationality of all faiths.
I think this lady misses the deeper meaning behind what Heretic is trying to portray. In my opinion Heretic is one of the most thought-provoking movies I have seen made for a mass audience. Heretic aims to convey how religion monopolizes on the sacred and use it a mechanism of power/control over humanity. The film directly targets the way monotheism borrowed the sacred elements of the polytheistic ancient world that came before it so that they could compile it into a religion that could be monopolized. The reason Mormonism was chosen to portray this aspect of the monist religions is because of all the major religions, "Mormonism" is the most open about selling their religion as a product to the masses. How many other religions have people literally going door to door to sell someone the ideas of their church? For anyone that thinks this movie is just a dig at Mormonism is missing the point of the movie. The movie shows us that there is an underlying idea that and is the cornerstone of all religions. That sacred idea is the cycle of death and re-birth. When these sacred ideas are taken and compiled into a religion there is a distortion that occurs. The ending of Heretic is up for debate, but I think it is trying to show us that the reality we experience now is the illusion and when one dies, they awake from the dream/hallucination. The movie is not at all trying to convince viewers that they should be an atheist.
Heretic, awful. Conclave, excellent… go and see it. Conclave is not meant to be a documentary of Catholicism. I do not understand why Catholics assume that every movie must portray Catholicism accurately. Rather, most movies portray religions according to how society has begun to view them… why that is so, is your problem, not ours. Look to it.
I thought Conclave was very respectful. The lead character has a moral compass and is trying hard to do the right thing. The ending respects God and the church. Conclave is the best movie I've seen this year.
I was dissapointed when I found out the LDS brethren the quorum of the 15, before they make a police or revelation they discuss disagree and argue and vote. I thought God talked directly to the Prophet and maybe but the prophet has to present it to the 12 and get consent. This sounds like a CEO and board members of a corporation. It broke my heart!!!!! How do Catholics do it?
Did you realize they vote in unanimity? Do most people understand the miracle in that? *_Our leaders are awesome and their fruits are sweet and abundant!_* *_Regarding Corporation_* My Opinion: I have in my career worked for two mega corporations. Boeing and GE. Each one had hundreds of thousands of employees. I maintain a distinction in my mind between ecclesiastical and corporate perspectives on leadership. And so in my view I see the corporation as a necessary vehicle to help more people in the world to *_see the fruits_* of The Restoration. The Corporation gives a legally defensible position against the "day and night" (Revelation 12: 10,11) attacks our Brethren endure as they continually bear special witness for The Savior. Our Brethren saw wisdom in this modern era to legally protect The Church in a corporation. This allows The Church to be brought out of obscurity as a laboring woman bears a man-child without it being immediately devoured by the dragon. Revelation 12: 1-6 The Corporation makes The Church able to work from a position of strength as Our Brethren dispense over $1B / year for third-world poverty and global disaster relief. (It was $1.3 B last year.) I am grateful to see my tithes used this way! The Corporation is the face of The Church whenever the self appointed pharisees in the press believe they have yet another petty grievance to attempt a distraction of eyes against the special mission those commissioned Twelve Brethren have to preach the gospel to all the earth. They have used every conceivable subject to attempt this distraction. The Corporation is a springboard for the bare Arm of The Lord to be revealed keeping the doors open to the nations. Without the corporation The Church's influence and ability to move about doing good in the world would be hardly a shadow of what it is now as it comes "out of obscurity." With the corporation, progress can be made giving the 17 million of The Church a 500x multiplier "out of obscurity" to progress, albeit slowly, into the 8.5 Billion souls across the earth. (When I was young it was 1000x.) If corporations are evil, (and ours by any measurable standard is uncharacteristically good ) than it is a _necessary_ evil. Now ecclesiastical is the peg I hang my faith-hat on. The corporate keeps the wyley ways of evil out of my hair so I *_can_* have space to even hang my faith-hat. I find myself reminded of Jesus' words in John 6 :68 ".. *_to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life_* ." Just my own opinion. Hosannahs and blessings to you!
He does to all of them he doesn't always directly talk to them like God talks to you but it's through the spirit of discernment the reason for the vote is to first not make one person have all the power less we forget we don't believe the prophet to be all perfect he still a man so may misinterpret something of God so it's better to speak with council of other men who have likewise prayed to God in the same manner so they can be in one body of agreement.
I don't want to downplay it if that's what you feel about it. I just want to give my perspective about it. First of all, I think it's a good way to avoid dictatorship. Even the best of us can fall or make mistakes, and some things in the past could've avoided if it was applied better then. Secondly, even though there are exceptions to it, it's mostly when there are restorative prophets. When the church is established, we see systems such as the Jerusalem Council where they're discussing with each other
Are we aware of The Brethren making all of the decisions abouy policy in unity and unanimity? No it doesn't necessarily begin that way, but always finishes that way. I wonder how many do realize the miracle of that alone. Regarding Corporation, in my opinion: I have in my career worked for two mega corporations. Boeing and GE. Each one had hundreds of thousands of employees. But with The Church, I maintain a distinction in my mind between ecclesiastical and corporate perspectives on leadership. And so in my view I see the corporation as a necessary vehicle to help more people in the world to *_see the fruits_* of The Restoration. The Corporation gives a legally defensible position against the "day and night" (Revelation 12: 10,11) attacks our Brethren endure as they continually bear special witness for The Savior. Our Brethren saw wisdom in this modern era to legally protect The Church in a corporation. This allows The Church to be brought out of obscurity as a laboring woman bears a man-child without it being immediately devoured by the dragon. Revelation 12: 1-6 The Corporation makes The Church able to work from a position of strength as Our Brethren dispense over $1B / year for third-world poverty and global disaster relief. (It was $1.3 B last year.) I am grateful to see my tithes used this way! The Corporation is the face of The Church whenever the self appointed pharisees in the press believe they have yet another petty grievance to attempt a distraction of eyes against the special mission those commissioned Twelve Brethren have to preach the gospel to all the earth. They have used every conceivable subject to attempt this distraction. The Corporation is a springboard for the bare Arm of The Lord to be revealed keeping the doors open to the nations. Without the corporation The Church's influence and ability to move about doing good in the world would be hardly a shadow of what it is now as it comes "out of obscurity." With the corporation, progress can be made giving the 17 million of The Church a 500x multiplier "out of obscurity" to progress, albeit slowly, into the 8.5 Billion souls across the earth. (When I was young it was 1000x.) If corporations are evil, (and ours by any measurable standard is uncharacteristically good ) than it is a _necessary_ evil. Now ecclesiastical is the peg I hang my faith-hat on. The corporate keeps the wyley ways of evil out of my hair so I *_can_* have space to even hang my faith-hat. Our leaders are awesome and their fruits are sweet and abundant! I find myself reminded of Jesus' words in John 6 :68 ".. *_to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life_* ." Just my own opinion. Hosannahs and blessings to you!
One other thing: The principle of Councils is well explained by "Henry B. Eyring forget Harvard and Stanford". It's on You-Tube. (5 1/2 minutes.) Compare Acts 15: 25-28
I grew up mormon; once you open yourself up to all of the teachings of what unconditional love actually means. The mormon church doesn't do that. Which means they don't truely follow the lords teachings. Religion is a middle man between you and God.
No offense but it is not the job of filmmakers to “get your religion right”. Their job is make a compelling film. I also think that Christians in general sort (who have the most social and political privilege) of have a lot of nerve complaining when they have zero problems when non Christian religions are portrayed inaccurately. As a former member of the RCC , this hardly the most scandalous stuff that could happen. While not a Mormon, your church’s discrimination towards people of color in your church is well know. Just be lucky that is not in the film.
knowing that many people do take it very seriously, does this not suggest you must be missing some knowledge to fill in your understanding? i do understand being where you are, but i have found success in filling in the gaps in my understanding of other religions. it is fulfilling and worthwhile.
@ All of the excuses for why things are the way they are in Mormonism fall apart when they are contradicted by other excuses. Joseph Smith needed golden plates to translate; also Joseph Smith doesn’t need to look at them or even know the language they are written in to “translate” them. Joseph Smith had to keep the plates secret. He showed them to 11 other people; they were all relatives from his family and an in-law’s family. Prophets in Mormonism spoke harshly about African Americans and how they wouldn’t gain salvation. Wait, never mind they never said that! Well, it was recorded but they were “speaking as a man, not a prophet.” The examples go on… This is not something to take seriously.
I have to be honest-both of your reviews seem overly focused on a defensive reaction to how the films portrayed characters in your faith. While your tone remains measured, the reviews read more as apologetics than as film analysis. As a Latter-day Saint who spends a lot of time with movies and reviews, I often feel disappointed by most Latter-day Saint content creators approach to 'reviewing' this film. Many reviews tend to lack film literacy and lean too heavily into defensiveness about portrayals of faith. I also strongly disagree with your claim that the film sides with Mr. Reed or concludes that religion is inherently bad. That's like saying Alma chapter 30 sides with Korihor and concludes that religion is bad. The sister missionaries are the clear protagonists-smart, good, faithful, and compassionate. They effectively counter Mr. Reed’s arguments, expose his plot, and defeat him. To suggest otherwise feels like an overly defensive interpretation that might reflect a preconception brought into the theater. If you’re interested in a more wholistic review and a more balanced reaction to the portrayal, I’d recommend Cinema Therapy’s review of Heretic. th-cam.com/video/xz0SdB-X2Nw/w-d-xo.html
I was interested to hear a Catholic's perspective on Conclave. I enjoyed the film, but I think the end of the film didn't work very well. I learned a few things that filled in some of my knowledge related to conclaves.
I think they're trying to ask "How would the faithful feel about this?" If a faithful LDS member didn't at least shift a little in their seat while watching Heretic I'd question their sensibilities.
@@suem6004 nothing wrong with it, but as a Latter Day Saint myself, I’m disappointed by the hair-trigger defensiveness that prevents so many saints from seeing this movie for what it is. I recommend checking out that review from Cinema Therapy Reviews. They are also lds.
Thanks so much for having me on! - Michael
I loved to see a catholic perspective so much!!! that was so Cool!!!
Good conversation 😊
I loved the collaboration and your perspective and what you said starting at 51:20. Thank you!
@@angelalewis3645 so your saying that he decided to focus more on Love and helping others more than debating about what is right and wrong? lol Thats a good One!!!
You have just received a new follower in Christ Name Jesus as a strong devout Catholic.. Bravo Brother
I wanted to add one thought regarding the long term impact of such movies. As latter-day saints, we have had the cringey pleasure of one of the most popular broadway musicals for a long time be a master class in LDS misrepresentation. The church has leaned into that putting actual missionaries outside the theater, and I know at least two people who ended up joing the church after viewing the musical. God can teach people in even such circumstances.
20:10 This is a terrific conversation. I would add that as Latter-day Saints, we take both our sacramental and baptismal ordinances very seriously. They must be spoken precisely or they must be redone. As a member of the LDS church, I am very sensitive to misrepresentations of any faith in film and can usually spot them whether intentional or not.
Yeah I felt like her contrast was a little inaccurate. How many sacrament meetings have we sat through where the Priest had to redo the ordinance several times to until the words were correct?
I think her point was we do the checking right then and there not go back years later to hunt people down because it was done wrong and not caught at the time.
I almost don't want to see either movie because of the intentional undermining of people of faith, which is clear across both movies. It is so unlike something like Cabrini, which was such a faith promoting movie with such a profound message of overcoming predjudice and trials which was funded by Angel Studios (a studio founded by LDS people) that I've just decided to cut stuff like heretic and conclave out of my life. I don't want to fund movies that undermine faithful people.
Well said, there's no nobility in doubt
@@stevecooper7883 Doubt is just a thing that happens as part of each person's spiritual life. We occasionally reexamine what we believe and what it means to our lives. I don't know how literal much of the Old Testament is, and that's not a big deal because there's spiritual value in it to help me understand myself, God, and the relationship we have.
@@The.Prepper.Princess both movies are good and don’t undermine faith. Go see them for yourself with an open mind.
@TheMightyJor k I don't know you and so I'm not going to trust you. I've listened to the script being read for heretic, so I don't need to see it. So many movies, in general, are a waste of time, I'm not here to see every single one of them. These have not met the threshold of good reviews for my time to be spent on them.
@@TheMightyJor Thanks for this comment. I was shocked at how respectful Conclave was of the church.
21:38 actually… if an ordinance is done wrong you have to repeat it. That’s why you have witnesses to certify an ordinance was done right. Think of a baptism. I’ve seen a baptism be repeated seven times until it was fully by immersion. I’ve heard sacrament prayers be repeated three times because they were not said right.
I believe you are both right.
If a mistake is noticed, the ordinance is repeated. We must do our best to complete the ordinance correctly. However, if a mistake is not noticed, but evidence comes out later about an ordinance that was done imperfectly, the ordinance is rarely repeated. It is possible that all these ordinances with mistakes will be repeated during the millennium, but we treat it as valid.
If baptism, the sacrament or any "ordinance " is done /said wrong it is re-done. It is VERY important. We are actually a lot like the catholic Church in that respect.
I heve seen hundreds of missionaries of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and talk with them. Even had them at my dinner table. They don't act at all like portrayed in this movie Heritic. They bring the message of Christ.
I've had hundreds of Mormon missionaries (and Jehovah's witnesses, and churchy people in general) visit my home and have talked with them, too, and I find the characters in the film to be pretty accurate as far as young, inexperienced, excitable kids go. Then again, I'm not religious, and I prefer characters to be realistic and relatable rather than Perfect Models of Christ. Could've done without the cartoonish villainy of the atheist character, tbh.
I am also a member of The Church.
If there is an element of *_"holy envy"_* that I have for The Catholics it is for their K-12 schools. Two of our LDS grandaughters attend one here in a small city of western PA. (Incidentally , I also admire the leadership of Archbishop Carlo Vigano for the way he speaks/writes against evil.)
My wife and I enjoyed Cabrini. She was one tough woman! _I never knew._
The genre of horror is useless to me. But, I might watch Conclave. Knew nothing of it. I'll see the trailer for sure!
I agree. I wish the LDS Church would start a school system. But outside if Utah IDK if we would have the membership.
Two sister missionaries entering a home without an adult woman present????
It's literally verbatim addressed in the film. They tell him they cannot enter the home without a woman present, he lies to them and says his wife is inside. Since they are fairly young and naive kids in general (made clear it's not because of their faith but because they are young) and Hugh Grant has a naturally friendly face, they trust him and go in.
Always like your stuff! Two things, it’s always the most senior Apostle. The order is very important and divinely crafted. It felt like you portrayed it as less organized than it is. Second, we’re very particular with our ordinances, on my mission there were several baptisms I had to re-do because of faulty authority or faulty paperwork. Maybe not at the level we aren’t on the level Catholic faith but we take the accuracy of the ordinances very seriously.
As a latter-day saint, I haven't seen either movie. I'd be more interested in Conclave personally as I don't really enjoy horror movies. I just don't like to spend money at the boxoffice to support movies that are disrespectful to faith generally. I don't have to be Catholic to see where conclave is going.
Conclave is not disrespectful. Anyone telling you this has either not seen the movie or lacks critical thinking. I don't know if I've ever seen a movie that shows such respect to the Catholic faith. Most of main cast grew up or are still Catholic.
@@blackblake3658 Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but to suggest that any disagreement with your opinion is ill-informed is well... I'll let you choose your own word. Do a simple google search and you will find many who disagree. I feel confident you are not the arbiter for what is or is not respectful to all catholics. But I'm glad you were able to pull something of value from the movie anyway.
I'm a lapsed Catholic and Conclave genuinely inspired me to try returning to church. There's a beautiful homily early on about the danger of certainty and the important of doubt, because without doubt there is no need for faith. I watched it with my Catholic mum and we both loved it, both as an examination of the church as an institution, and as a work of cinema and storytelling.
I loved you guys talking about this. I wish there was a masterclass on doctrines between Latter-Day Saints and Catholics
The persecution complex is so wild.
Heretic was amazing. After 44 years of Mormonism, years of working in the temple and being active and faithful, I found it very accurate and very smart.
Another fantastic video! Thanks!
I will not watch Heretic because I have known missionaries who have been attacked on their missions, and I do not want to support it.
I watched Conclave. Had I known the ending, I would have not watched it out of respect for my Catholic friends.
But to reject the ending is to pretend people aren't born with that condition. They are. Conclave was more respectful of Catholicism than the faith is treated by Catholics.
I agree about submitting before God. Ironically, it’s only by submitting that one can come to know God.
Also I live this conversation. I feel that we have so much that aligns. I appreciate Catholicism.
I think Heretic is terrible. Zero interest in seeing it. My reason is not because I'm a member of the church, which I am, or that it's sacrilegious, which it may be. I hate that it introduces more people to the idea of entrapment of sister missionaries. If even 1 unstable person is inspired to do something terrible to missionaries, than the movie made the world a worse place. Apply Moroni 7:16-17
As a former sister missionary this is exactly what I saw, thank you for bringing this up.
Two things seem to me to be key in looking at Hollywood and religion. First, Hollywood knows how to tell a story and telling a story well gains considerable influence in society. Churches could learn a good deal about storytelling and its importance from Hollywood. Second, a good portion of Hollywood is made up of people who are at odds with traditional values and religious beliefs. I suspect that is because many actors are part of communities that have a beef with religion (e.g., LGBT) or have been disappointed by religion. Put these two factors together and churches have a formidable opponent to deal with. I personally think Christians need to learn to maintain the twin virtues of charity/compassion/understanding and truth/conviction while telling our story in a powerful and winsome way and finding alternative media to get that story out. Trump’s recent campaign (regardless of whether or not you support him) shows that the latter strategy of getting the word out can be carried out with considerable effectiveness.
Also very good dialogue. You should do this more often. As I (and at least one LDS scholar) have noticed, Latter Day Saints have more in common with Catholicism than either would think. More especially, the LDS Church is often times more Catholic than Protestant. One thing about the validity of Catholic sacraments. St. Augustine countered the Donatists by saying that the faithful congregant who unknowingly partakes a sacrament from an unworthy priest still receives the intended grace. The movie’s situation strikes me as being in a gray area that would make for an interesting discussion.
Merry Christmas to you all.
I totally agree that Christians good learn a great deal about storytelling from Hollywood. I'm embarrassed more often than not with movies from Christian-based origins. Although, I must say that Hollywood is falling into the same trap as they preach wokeness in many movies now.
I love interfaith camaraderie! Thanks to both of you. I’ve seen trailers for both films, and usually just feel discouraged by the negative portrayal from Hollywood. So appreciate this type of commentary from a faithful perspective
What a great exchange. Thank you both!
I mean, I was dunked four times when I got baptized because my dad kept messing up. So its still important to do the ordinance correctly. Also, we do the sacrament prayer several times if its said wrong
What a cool segment! More please
51:20 - So beautifully said!
Conclave might even be a worse interpretation. I heard spoilers for each show; after which I didn’t want to watch conclave but I did want to watch Heretic . Might be a little LDS bias, but I think mostly it’s because Conclave’s message seems so openly opposed to the faith while Heretic toes the line a bit more. Idk 🤷♂️ just my thoughts
Nope. Conclave respects the faith.
@ seems like not many people agree with you on that lol
Heretic doesn't "toe the line" at all, the cartoonish villain serial killer is a crazy, narcissistic atheist who is ultimately overcome by two teen girl missionaries who beat him by being clever, challenging his claims and beliefs, and sticking to their faith. Idk why religious folks are so insistent that this is somehow offensive to _the faithful_ when it's the _atheist_ who is portrayed as a zealot and a psychopath. :|
@ while I see what you’re saying, and I’ve heard this point being brought up a number of times, I don’t think this argument always holds up. I’ll explain;
It’s often the case in many movies that the “bad guy” or antagonist can be evil while still having valid causes or arguments. For example Killmonger from Black Panther is an extremest murderer but he is fighting for the oppressed and wants Wakanda to use its power/technology/resources to help the world. In the end, Killmonger is defeated but Wakanda does adopt many of his ideas to help solve world issues.
My example is just a dumb simple one, but my point is that it’s an oversimplification to say bad guy wrong about everything and good guy 100% right about everything.
With all that being said… I still haven’t seen Heretic. I’m waiting for streaming. Thank you for the insights. I will go in with an open mind and try to analyze the movie without bias. I have heard the movie does a fair job of showing both sides fairly… presenting valid arguments while leaving the door open for faith.
Thanks for the comment 👊
The truth is I won't be seeing either of these movies. I think that Hollywood has got to try to get closer to reality when they try to show religion. But of course books are written and then movies are written.
Erm actually 🤣. Jasmine, at 20:55 you start talking about how Latter-day Saints believe that misperformed ordinances can be overlooked. There are certainly Latter-day Saints that believe this, but it is NOT doctrinally accurate. Take the LDS sacrament (like communion, for those who are not LDS), for example: If those blessing the sacrament aren't Priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders...Void. Bored of the same old words, and you want to use your linguistic skill to liven up the blessing prayer a bit?...repeat it correctly. Are you performing the sacrament in a situation without the Bishop's approval...it's like it never happened.
All ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ are performed by authority from Priesthood keys, and they must be repeated, by the correct authority and in the right way, if they were done improperly in order to "count". That's the whole point of what we claim as a church: A restoration of Authority to perform saving ordinances on the earth. The exactness of ordinances is so central to our doctrine that we even perform these ordinances, in proxy, for those who have died. Even for something as trivial as the ordinance not being witnessed or recorded properly.
great discussion!
“Explore, but don’t preach.” Well said!
I'd rather see "Shoes of the Fisherman" because it is far more authentic.
Honestly, my takeaway from your reviews of heretic (that I’ve seen) is that it’s way more accurate then I expected it to be (like they actually tried instead of relying on hearsay), despite how you describe it as not being true at all 🤣
Idk compared to other forms of media it appears to have paid a lot more respect then I’d expect a horror movie to. I honestly interpret the inaccurate parts as just being the fetishization of the naïveté of lds missionaries (particularly the girls), like everything that sounded like a poor portrayal was somehow related to sex. Which as woman who served a mission, there was definitely at least one negative experience with a creepy kid who I think got onto that side the side of the internet that fetishized religion. I also think that’s why sister missionaries were chosen to portray the characters instead of elders. Still not great, but I would categorize that differently than being inaccurate.
That being said I will definitely still not watch it because one, I don’t like horror movies, and two, as someone who once was a sister missionary who has had a couple experiences of men being visibly upset when we would not go into their home since they were alone (one of which openly stated the rule makes sense since he has “evil thoughts” sometimes 😳, there’s only one kind of evil thoughts you can have in this context), that movie literally plays out some of the worse possibly fears a sister missionary could face.
Catholic or Mormon or whatever, it doesn't really matter. Fun fact: those who are called by Christ are all "spiritual Jews. Not my words. Also, Heretic was blasphemy to common sense and values and everything in between. It was a gory, violent, disgusting portrayal targeted at misrepresenting the LDS community. And then this Catholic conclave film, same idea, but less gory. My question is: as Christians, should we allow Hollywood to produce such aberrations of a film? I am genuinely asking. They would NEVER produce a film belittling Muslim faith, no chance! We need to realise who it is that they are targeting.
Good stuff!
We are Latter-day Saints not Mormon!
I felt that Hollywood was mocking and trying to discredit the Catholic Church. I was really disappointed with the movie.
My question is how many Popes and Cardinals in history had any strong Religious beliefs of any kind good or bad right or wrong? I wouldn't generally go to a Cardinal or Pope to find a man with strong Religious Convictions they seem more interested in Poltics than in God for the most part throughout history. It would not surprise me that with a little research you could easily find Popes and Cardinals that didn't even know basic Catholic Theology of the kind that a God-fearing Catholic family would teach their teenage children.
I don't know if thia has been addressed but...
1) bothe actresses who portray the Sister Missionaries were raised LDS but no longer practice the faith
2) one of the screenwriters, Bryan Woods, states that he "married into a mormon family" which sounds like his wife may no longer be practicing.
Both screenwriters were featured on a recent episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I could only make it thru the firat 14 mins of the podcast. The host is an ex-mo and he sadly misrepresents our doctrine also.
th-cam.com/users/liveWcHEA_d25uQ?si=8EbIUY5Fh5J1_RuC
Auch an incoherent argument in Heretic. If there is no objective morality, then terms like "good" and "evil" are meaningless. Doing "good" things for others has no value under such a worldview.
"Objective good and evil" has been discussed ten trillion times for the past 6,000 years. The most common response to your "argument" from the non-religious is that they do "good" things for the sake of it, whereas you might only do "good" things because you expect a reward or fear punishment. In which case, were your actions truly "good," or were they self-serving? I'm not arguing this, I'm telling you you were not prepared for this argument, despite your false confidence.
Also.....VERY strict rules about entering a home with a single man. Just wouldn't happen unless they are breaking the rules or it's an extreme situation. I get it was raining.....but big woop....we would just go home. We would never talk about porn or condoms etc. Not a conversation that would happen.
It is literally addressed verbatim in the film. The two girls ask if an adult woman is home and explain that they absolutely cannot enter a home without an adult woman present. Hugh Grant's character lies to them and says his wife is home and offers them treats he claims his wife just made. The two girls believe him because they are pretty young and trusting in general, and also because he has the trustworthy face and accent of Hugh Grant.
Matthew 10:34 Do not think I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a persons enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.whoever finds his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
All i gotta say is it's RALPH Fiennes not Ray. 😊
Ugh. Fiction not being perfectly accurate? Shocked! Everyone being offended about things that are in make believe movies are wild. Anyone remember any of those member made overdramatized movies made? Even utchdorf can laugh at himself by saying he went and watched the play "book of mormon". Lighten up and enjoy fiction.
49:41 a purely material world is not one worth living in?!?! Are you for real?? Do we need to explain our desires and inclinations? Not really. Atheistic or agnostic life can ve as rich or as poor in experiences a a religious one. Atheistic views of Richard Dawkins don't preclude him from enjoying poetry, seeing the beauty, experiencing feelings.
If you believe it's a lesser way to live a life , just state it as your opinion, not a universal truth.
They literally believe it's a universal truth, though.
They quite literally cannot comprehend a life without faith having any meaning. It's like asking a colorblind person to think of something red. And they feel the same way about people who are incapable of feeling "faith."
Reddit: The Movie
They're MOVIES.
Good reason to avoid R rated movies…
I don’t think I would like the movie about the LDS Church.
It’s actually about the difference between religion and atheism. The fact that the missionaries are LDS provides a starting place for examining the rationality of all faiths.
I think this lady misses the deeper meaning behind what Heretic is trying to portray. In my opinion Heretic is one of the most thought-provoking movies I have seen made for a mass audience.
Heretic aims to convey how religion monopolizes on the sacred and use it a mechanism of power/control over humanity. The film directly targets the way monotheism borrowed the sacred elements of the polytheistic ancient world that came before it so that they could compile it into a religion that could be monopolized.
The reason Mormonism was chosen to portray this aspect of the monist religions is because of all the major religions, "Mormonism" is the most open about selling their religion as a product to the masses. How many other religions have people literally going door to door to sell someone the ideas of their church?
For anyone that thinks this movie is just a dig at Mormonism is missing the point of the movie. The movie shows us that there is an underlying idea that and is the cornerstone of all religions. That sacred idea is the cycle of death and re-birth. When these sacred ideas are taken and compiled into a religion there is a distortion that occurs. The ending of Heretic is up for debate, but I think it is trying to show us that the reality we experience now is the illusion and when one dies, they awake from the dream/hallucination. The movie is not at all trying to convince viewers that they should be an atheist.
Heretic, awful. Conclave, excellent… go and see it. Conclave is not meant to be a documentary of Catholicism. I do not understand why Catholics assume that every movie must portray Catholicism accurately. Rather, most movies portray religions according to how society has begun to view them… why that is so, is your problem, not ours. Look to it.
I thought Conclave was very respectful. The lead character has a moral compass and is trying hard to do the right thing. The ending respects God and the church. Conclave is the best movie I've seen this year.
Nah us Mormons repeat improperly performed ordinances but in the moment not if realized later.
On my mission, a boy was baptized under the wrong name. It wasn't caught at the time. He had to be baptized again several days later.
I was dissapointed when I found out the LDS brethren the quorum of the 15, before they make a police or revelation they discuss disagree and argue and vote. I thought God talked directly to the Prophet and maybe but the prophet has to present it to the 12 and get consent. This sounds like a CEO and board members of a corporation. It broke my heart!!!!! How do Catholics do it?
Did you realize they vote in unanimity? Do most people understand the miracle in that?
*_Our leaders are awesome and their fruits are sweet and abundant!_*
*_Regarding Corporation_*
My Opinion:
I have in my career worked for two mega corporations. Boeing and GE. Each one had hundreds of thousands of employees.
I maintain a distinction in my mind between ecclesiastical and corporate perspectives on leadership.
And so in my view I see the corporation as a necessary vehicle to help more people in the world to *_see the fruits_* of The Restoration.
The Corporation gives a legally defensible position against the "day and night" (Revelation 12: 10,11) attacks our Brethren endure as they continually bear special witness for The Savior.
Our Brethren saw wisdom in this modern era to legally protect The Church in a corporation. This allows The Church to be brought out of obscurity as a laboring woman bears a man-child without it being immediately devoured by the dragon. Revelation 12: 1-6
The Corporation makes The Church able to work from a position of strength as Our Brethren dispense over $1B / year for third-world poverty and global disaster relief. (It was $1.3 B last year.) I am grateful to see my tithes used this way!
The Corporation is the face of The Church whenever the self appointed pharisees in the press believe they have yet another petty grievance to attempt a distraction of eyes against the special mission those commissioned Twelve Brethren have to preach the gospel to all the earth. They have used every conceivable subject to attempt this distraction.
The Corporation is a springboard for the bare Arm of The Lord to be revealed keeping the doors open to the nations.
Without the corporation The Church's influence and ability to move about doing good in the world would be hardly a shadow of what it is now as it comes "out of obscurity."
With the corporation, progress can be made giving the 17 million of The Church a 500x multiplier "out of obscurity" to progress, albeit slowly, into the 8.5 Billion souls across the earth. (When I was young it was 1000x.)
If corporations are evil, (and ours by any measurable standard is uncharacteristically good ) than it is a _necessary_ evil.
Now ecclesiastical is the peg I hang my faith-hat on. The corporate keeps the wyley ways of evil out of my hair so I *_can_* have space to even hang my faith-hat.
I find myself reminded of Jesus' words in John 6 :68 ".. *_to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life_* ."
Just my own opinion.
Hosannahs and blessings to you!
He does to all of them he doesn't always directly talk to them like God talks to you but it's through the spirit of discernment the reason for the vote is to first not make one person have all the power less we forget we don't believe the prophet to be all perfect he still a man so may misinterpret something of God so it's better to speak with council of other men who have likewise prayed to God in the same manner so they can be in one body of agreement.
I don't want to downplay it if that's what you feel about it. I just want to give my perspective about it.
First of all, I think it's a good way to avoid dictatorship. Even the best of us can fall or make mistakes, and some things in the past could've avoided if it was applied better then.
Secondly, even though there are exceptions to it, it's mostly when there are restorative prophets. When the church is established, we see systems such as the Jerusalem Council where they're discussing with each other
Are we aware of The Brethren making all of the decisions abouy policy in unity and unanimity? No it doesn't necessarily begin that way, but always finishes that way. I wonder how many do realize the miracle of that alone.
Regarding Corporation, in my opinion: I have in my career worked for two mega corporations. Boeing and GE. Each one had hundreds of thousands of employees.
But with The Church, I maintain a distinction in my mind between ecclesiastical and corporate perspectives on leadership.
And so in my view I see the corporation as a necessary vehicle to help more people in the world to *_see the fruits_* of The Restoration.
The Corporation gives a legally defensible position against the "day and night" (Revelation 12: 10,11) attacks our Brethren endure as they continually bear special witness for The Savior.
Our Brethren saw wisdom in this modern era to legally protect The Church in a corporation. This allows The Church to be brought out of obscurity as a laboring woman bears a man-child without it being immediately devoured by the dragon. Revelation 12: 1-6
The Corporation makes The Church able to work from a position of strength as Our Brethren dispense over $1B / year for third-world poverty and global disaster relief. (It was $1.3 B last year.) I am grateful to see my tithes used this way!
The Corporation is the face of The Church whenever the self appointed pharisees in the press believe they have yet another petty grievance to attempt a distraction of eyes against the special mission those commissioned Twelve Brethren have to preach the gospel to all the earth. They have used every conceivable subject to attempt this distraction.
The Corporation is a springboard for the bare Arm of The Lord to be revealed keeping the doors open to the nations.
Without the corporation The Church's influence and ability to move about doing good in the world would be hardly a shadow of what it is now as it comes "out of obscurity."
With the corporation, progress can be made giving the 17 million of The Church a 500x multiplier "out of obscurity" to progress, albeit slowly, into the 8.5 Billion souls across the earth. (When I was young it was 1000x.)
If corporations are evil, (and ours by any measurable standard is uncharacteristically good ) than it is a _necessary_ evil.
Now ecclesiastical is the peg I hang my faith-hat on. The corporate keeps the wyley ways of evil out of my hair so I *_can_* have space to even hang my faith-hat.
Our leaders are awesome and their fruits are sweet and abundant!
I find myself reminded of Jesus' words in John 6 :68 ".. *_to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life_* ."
Just my own opinion.
Hosannahs and blessings to you!
One other thing: The principle of Councils is well explained by "Henry B. Eyring forget Harvard and Stanford". It's on You-Tube.
(5 1/2 minutes.)
Compare Acts 15: 25-28
I grew up mormon; once you open yourself up to all of the teachings of what unconditional love actually means. The mormon church doesn't do that. Which means they don't truely follow the lords teachings. Religion is a middle man between you and God.
No offense but it is not the job of filmmakers to “get your religion right”. Their job is make a compelling film.
I also think that Christians in general sort (who have the most social and political privilege) of have a lot of nerve complaining when they have zero problems when non Christian religions are portrayed inaccurately.
As a former member of the RCC , this hardly the most scandalous stuff that could happen.
While not a Mormon, your church’s discrimination towards people of color in your church is well know. Just be lucky that is not in the film.
The problem is it is really hard for most people to take Mormonism *”seriously”*
knowing that many people do take it very seriously, does this not suggest you must be missing some knowledge to fill in your understanding?
i do understand being where you are, but i have found success in filling in the gaps in my understanding of other religions. it is fulfilling and worthwhile.
@ All of the excuses for why things are the way they are in Mormonism fall apart when they are contradicted by other excuses.
Joseph Smith needed golden plates to translate; also Joseph Smith doesn’t need to look at them or even know the language they are written in to “translate” them.
Joseph Smith had to keep the plates secret. He showed them to 11 other people; they were all relatives from his family and an in-law’s family.
Prophets in Mormonism spoke harshly about African Americans and how they wouldn’t gain salvation. Wait, never mind they never said that! Well, it was recorded but they were “speaking as a man, not a prophet.”
The examples go on…
This is not something to take seriously.
I have to be honest-both of your reviews seem overly focused on a defensive reaction to how the films portrayed characters in your faith. While your tone remains measured, the reviews read more as apologetics than as film analysis.
As a Latter-day Saint who spends a lot of time with movies and reviews, I often feel disappointed by most Latter-day Saint content creators approach to 'reviewing' this film. Many reviews tend to lack film literacy and lean too heavily into defensiveness about portrayals of faith.
I also strongly disagree with your claim that the film sides with Mr. Reed or concludes that religion is inherently bad. That's like saying Alma chapter 30 sides with Korihor and concludes that religion is bad. The sister missionaries are the clear protagonists-smart, good, faithful, and compassionate. They effectively counter Mr. Reed’s arguments, expose his plot, and defeat him. To suggest otherwise feels like an overly defensive interpretation that might reflect a preconception brought into the theater.
If you’re interested in a more wholistic review and a more balanced reaction to the portrayal, I’d recommend Cinema Therapy’s review of Heretic.
th-cam.com/video/xz0SdB-X2Nw/w-d-xo.html
I was interested to hear a Catholic's perspective on Conclave. I enjoyed the film, but I think the end of the film didn't work very well. I learned a few things that filled in some of my knowledge related to conclaves.
Nothing wrong with giving a devout LDS perspective. Catholic reviewers do the exact same thing.
I think they're trying to ask "How would the faithful feel about this?" If a faithful LDS member didn't at least shift a little in their seat while watching Heretic I'd question their sensibilities.
@@suem6004 nothing wrong with it, but as a Latter Day Saint myself, I’m disappointed by the hair-trigger defensiveness that prevents so many saints from seeing this movie for what it is. I recommend checking out that review from Cinema Therapy Reviews. They are also lds.
@ go check out cinema therapy review’s review. They are lds.