It would be an interesting what if, could Isildur even give it up when it came to it? I think yes, in Rivendell with Elrond and others of the wise recommending it.
@@paulemge9156 But as the video points out, destroying it was another matter entirely. The Ring literally only was finally destroyed by ACCIDENT, when Golum inadvertently fell into the chasm of lava after stealing the ring back from Frodo. When it came to destroying it on purpose, even Frodo failed, in the end. So the One Ring would still be a threat, thousands of years later. And Sauron would know exactly where that ring was, if the Elves had it for all that time.
@jacob4920 It wasn’t really an accident, but divine intervention. However, suppose that Isilidur gives up the ring but puts it in a sealed container of some kind , that no one ‘owned’. Then a party of the most noble take the container together to mount doom trading off on who carries the container as they journey and then someone who never held the container takes it and casts it into the lava?
The movie can't go into the details for such a minor character unfortunately. We all know Isildur was a big deal in the books, with honestly his most heroic achievement was saving the white tree. Also Aragorn isn't ashamed of Isildur, but instead doubts he can live up to him
Fun fact: The orcs that ambushed Isildur and his company were encouraged to dare an attack by the sad remnants of the Wood Elves´s army. This band of orcs was initially ordered to attack the armies of the last Alliance as they were making their way to Dagorlad, following the Anduin. They were terrified of the might of the assembled host and hid away. After Sauron´s defeat, the orcs witnessed the Wood Elves return home. Because so many Wood Elves died in the war of the Last Alliance, the orcs had the impression that their side won. So in a way, Oropher´s fatal charge turned out to be a key piece in Isildur´s downfall. (You can read all of that in Unfinished Tales. What´s a bit weird though is the fact that two years passed between Sauron´s fall and Isildur´s departure to Arnor, and 9+ years between the Allied Forces moving south and Isildur returning, so these orcs waited a long time in the Wilderlands...)
In fairness to Isildur, him dying and events unfolding as they did is the only way the Ring could have been destroyed. No one was able to willingly destroy the Ring. Chance and Gollum are the only reasons for Frodo’s success Edit: him dying saved everything!
I don't think it was so much Isildur's death that ruined everything, but that none of Isildur's elder sons had a son. Elendur was 144, Aratan was 104, Ciryon was 64 and Valandil was 13. Elendur and Aratan were old enough to have sired a son. Meneldil was 81 when Cemendur was born. So Elendur could have had a son who was 44 when his father and grandfather were killed, if Elendur was 100 when his son was born, which was the same age as Cemendur was. Also if Aratan had a son at 85, he would have been 19 when his father died. Isildur's death allowed for the One Ring to be lost, which was a great disaster, but it wouldn't have been as bad if one of Isildur's sons had had a son. Also, being born when their fathers were that age, they would have been born in Gondor and known to the people, and the elder would likely have been involved in the was some how and gained favour with the people of Gondor and been expected as the new High King of Arnor and Gondor. In a way it was Elendur who ruined everything by not having a son when he was more than old enough.
Interesting pov. Yes, one of the reasons for Arnor's rather swift decline and collapse relative to her sister kingdom to the south, was the accession of a number of child-monarchs to the throne, of which Valandil was the first. If history teaches us anything, it is: woe to the realm that is ruled by a child; Greedy and corrupt people take advantage of the power vacuum in such situations, and it just leads to inefficiency and chaos for the realm as a whole. Granted there were other factors to Arnor's decay (unfavorable climate, population depletion, natural disasters ect.), but the fact cannot be denied that the northern kingdom of the Dunedain had far more problems dynastically than her southern counterpart.
The fact that none of Isildur's other sons had children has always struck me as odd. Sure, there was a lot going on during their lives, but the fact that all three of them were childless feels like an oversight on Tolkien's behalf.
@@crusher0427 doubtful. We're told Isildur escaped with his family from Minas Ithil, thus indicating no-one died, and all four sons survived the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and only Elendur went into Mordor during the war indicates any children would be kept away from the fighting and would likely have stayed in Arnor, well away from the fighting like Valandil was to protect the House of Isildur, which could be why Isildur had another son, Valandil, so much later than his other sons. Whilst this plan worked it was never meant to be nesserly and would not have been needed if any of Isildur's sons had had a son
@@DarthGandalfYT Look at the house of Wessex. Edward the Elder had five sons who lived to adulthood. Only one of them married and just four decades after Edward's death there was one male member of the house left, king Edgar the Peaceful. Most sons of Ethelred the Unready who lived to adulthood also never married. It has been proposed that there were unofficial pacts where younger sons were kept in line by the promise of a future kingship when their elder brothers died without legitimate offspring. Tolkien just might have something like this in mind, although never spelled it out.
It's also interesting to think about what might have happened had a certain rock missed and Anarion survived the war. If Isildur then still died while returning north, Anarion would have been in position to claim the high kingship. Would he have gone to Arnor and left Meneldil in charge in Gondor? Or would he have decided to remain in Gondor and let the line of Isildur run Arnor?
It is possible that Anarion might have made an attempt at staking a claim to Arnor as well. But remember that Isildur was the elder brother, had always been something of the senior partner in the dual monarchy in Gondor, and (assuming the Disaster of the Gladden Fields played out the same way in this alternate timeline) would have still been survived by his child-son Valandil. Valandil would thus have still had the legally superior claim to the High Kingship over his uncle Anarion. Not that this would necessarily have stopped Anarion - perhaps the population of Arnor would have preferred the rule of a mature man, to say nothing of a victorious war hero, over a child of thirteen, whether legitimate or not. It ultimately would have depended on the extent of Anarion's ambition. I personally would like to believe that Anarion would have chosen to acknowledge his nephew's right to the crown of Arnor, and not dispute the High Kingship with him. By the time of Isildur's death, after all, he would have been getting on in years (he would have been 223), and it is just doubtful to me that at that age he would have wanted to shoulder the burden of a second kingdom. After all, ruling is tough!
@@DarthGandalfYTYes, a pity Tolkien never got around to fleshing him out as much as his father and brother. I would assume that given that he spent a lifetime of basically playing second fiddle to his elder brother, he must have had a degree of humility and cool-headedness to his character. Or perhaps he had a chip on his shoulder for the same reason. Alas, we cannot know...(although Tolkien did leave us one small clue. When Isildur crowned Meneldil as the third King of Gondor and departed to claim the throne of Arnor, it is written that Meneldil celebrated his uncle's and his family's departure for the North and hoped that they would long stay there. Perhaps this is a roundabout way of revealing that all was not well behind the scenes between the branches of royal family of the Edain, and that perhaps Anarion and his children were not as fond of their uncle and cousins as they seemed).
Different people. Ohtar (and an unnamed companion) were the ones who took Narsil back to Rivendell. They had left the battle at that point. Estelmo was Elendur's esquire, and was wounded, but managed to survive because Elendur's corpse fell atop him. He's the one who gives us the final account of Isildur.
I think it was pretty clear that Isildur was becoming corrupted by the One Ring, even if he had doubts. All people being corrupted by Sauron's rings probably had. Even Gandalf and Galadriel thought themselves incapable of taking control of it. Frodo couldn't resist its power. If he would have been able to resist, he would have been greatest human hero to ever live. More likely he indeed was on his way to becoming a future Ringwraith. Sauron would have won as a ringwraith Isildur would have returned the One Ring to Sauron when he returned.
the one ring does not have the ability to turn its holder into a wraith, you can clearly see this with gollum, that was exclusive to the lesser rings who were specifically crafted for that purpose the one ring was not. Isildur is one of the greatest men to ever live, he has a great deal of will power. frodo claims the ring for his own and goes all crazy in only 11 months. Isildur had control over himself for 2 entire years, and still had the wisdom to realise he must hand it to the elves in rivendell and did not let it influence his decision making. Saying Isildur would hand over the ring to Sauron somehow even though Sauron is banished from the world at this point is laughable and a complete misinterpretation of the character and what the one ring does.
The thing is, either the ring had to be destroyed or Isildur had to die to be freed from the One’s influence. Simply giving up the ring would not have been enough... he had to die to truly depart from what was becoming his precious
I knew about how the ring was lost because of Isildur's death, but this also causing the split of Gondor and Arnor is an interesting point. Good video!
didn't Gondor have control of Mordor at the time of his death? if he was really able to part with it tossing it in the volcano would be no harder than handing it to Elrond
Yes! This is one of the major reasons I have to doubt the idea that Isildur would ever have surrendered the Ring had he survived the Gladden Fields. He had already had the chance to listen to the counsel of Elrond and Cirdan and destroy the Ring in Mordor immediately following Sauron's defeat. He declined it. Why would anything have changed down the the road? If we know anything about the way the One Ring works, um, we know its hold doesn't get weaker over the minds of mortals that carry it over time. He would probably never have let it go.
Another good what ‘if Khazad Dum survived a Balrog attack?’ Maybe the Balrog never wakes or the dwarves somehow kill it with the help of the Elves on either side of the misty mountains. Fat chance but it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Dwarves (especially the Long beards) prospered in the late third age.
I do wonder what would have happened had the World known about the Balrog due to some of the Dwarves escaping, I wonder what Sauron would have done had he heard this news which he no doubt would from his Orcs. Would the Balrog even care about the happenings in Middle-Earth? I doubt it, but once it fully awoke there's no telling the damage it'd do, I suspect in a weird turn of events that it'd end up being Saruman rather than Gandalf confronting it for dominion over the area. Saruman would be able to fight the Balrog "easier" than Gandalf the Grey who he was the superior to before he became Gandalf the White. Then we'd have Gandalf the Grey for the entirety of the Story, but I also wonder what would happen to Saruman then in this case, after all here he'd have died fighting against a great evil but not for good purposes. I think he'd be given a second chance and of course he'd come back stronger than before, but would he be good now? Or continue to do dark deeds? He could potentially even contest with Sauron more directly in his new state, all this happening from a Dwarf lol
The Balrog cleaning the entire fortress would make for an amazing albeit super dark movie or series, it must have been quite a struggle with many dwarves going willing to their deaths.
I think Elrond was right. It's really easy to imagine an outcome where Isildur's survival was worse, with him becoming a corrupt and powerful king, gradually sinking lower into lust for dominion, and eventually becoming a wraith, and probably under the complete control of Sauron after he re-manifests. I believe this is the most likely outcome. I think it more likely he would try to crush Imladris eventually, than to truly repent and surrender the Ring to Elrond. Your video made me realize though: it's really unfortunate he didn't leave the governance of Gondor with Elendur. Rather than Meneldil, who seems implied to be an astute politician, rather than somebody truly concerned with the legacy of Elendil. But then again, if Elendur isn't at Gladden Fields to persuade his father to flee, maybe an Orc ends up with the Ring, and it gets on Sauron's hand around T.A. 1000.
Interesting. Yes it isn't certain why exactly Isildur chose to arrange things the way he did as far as the rule of Gondor is concerned. He certainly had a large enough family of his own to choose a surrogate ruler from, including Elendur, as you point out. And one would logically think he would have preferred to leave one of his own children in charge in the South over a nephew that he barely knew, and didn't particularly like or trust (and vice-versa, a point Tolkien is very clear on). Prince Meneldil was 125 when Isildur crowned him King of Gondor, significantly younger than his own eldest son, who was 144 at the time, so it's not as though Meneldil had some exceptional experience or wisdom to offer. The only reason to my mind that holds any water for explaining why Isildur acted as he did is brotherly devotion. He and Anarion had escaped the destruction of Numenor together, had founded and ruled Gondor between them for 120 years, had built it literally from the ground up, and had been through hell and back again during the war against Sauron. The two were always an exceptionally close pair emotionally, and I believe Anarion's death during the siege of Barad-Dur aggrieved Isildur very deeply, perhaps more so than than even the death of his father Elendil. Therefore, what better way was there for him to honor his dead sibling than to bestow the kingdom they built together on his only surviving child? Fraternal love can be a powerful thing, after all.
@@elagabalusrex390 In honor of Anárion and unwillingness to be parted from his sons after so much loss are the only reasons that come to mind. It still seems odd.
Leaning more about Isildur from the books has made me reevaluate him. Especially since they didn't know the ring was "alive" at the time when he took it and he still decided that he should try to get rid of it later(whether or not he would have is unknown of course). Even Boromir who was strong and good who knew the ring could corrupt, wasn't able to resist the call of the ring entirely.
What's crazy is isildur should have taken the sea route. And from grey flood they could have reached rivendel much sooner and much safer. Or even gap of rohan! Why head to the high pass, use the north-south road
To reach Rivendell, the High Pass was the fastest route. He also believed it was safe because a) Sauron was gone, b) the local Men were allies, and c) he was familiar with the territory. Unfortunately, it wasn't as safe as he thought.
@@DarthGandalfYT but wasn't high pass has stone giants and extreme weather still? And i belive travel by ship or establishes road and cities are much faster in the early ages.
@@aklszkopek3470 Sea travel on the open ocean is not any safer than on land. There were multiple kings who died in a shipwreck, Isildur wouldn't be the first. As well, there isn't a good route from Tharbad to Imladris. The Mitheithel doesn't appear to be navigable for boats of any decent size, and the road from Thrbad requires going all the way to Bree. It is ultimately faster and safer in Isildur's mind to simply walk through friendly territory on recently improved roads. The UT footnotes have some of Tolkien's discussion of this.
Not knowing as much as I wish about LotR, I'm inclined to believe that this video's title is very fitting. Isildur (in the books at least) was convinced he could not handle the Ring's temptation. So had he not died on the way to Rivendell, much of the series could have been upended and completely changed. Tolkien, being the (unintentional) genius he was, did not chose that route and instead went "full fantasy" with it. Such that we get a story about two hobbits completely subverting the BBEG without ever truly encountering him XD
Even Hobbits like Bilbo and Frodo struggled with the One Ring, and at Mt. Doom Frodo proved unable to let it go. Gollum had to literally bite off the finger Frodo was wearing it on. So it's less clear that Isildur would have been able to make it to Rivendell before the Ring's corruptive influence changed his mind for him. Men do not have strong resistance to Sauron's booby-trapped Rings of Power in general (hence nine Nazgul). The One Ring is even worse. This is less a failing of Isildur than a vulnerability inherent in the race of Men that Sauron was happy to exploit. Additionally, the One Ring betrayed Isildur, which is how he was killed. So, even the best of intentions were not enough.
Well, Sauron DID presumably pick the recipients of the Nine. There's plenty of proof that men with strong wills to resist the Ring exist. Aragorn and Faramir come to mind. Granted, neither of them were willing to bear it, though.
@@Swiftbow - Sauron being Sauron, he almost certainly selected his ringbearers based on how susceptible he expected them to be to his control. Things didn't work as hoped with the Dwarves. But Men show less resistance, especially when they are under pressure (e.g. Boromir) or just hungry for power (e.g. the Nine who became the Nazgul). Aragorn and Faramir knew perfectly well that the One Ring *would* corrupt them, so they didn't want to touch it. Both of them had ties to Gandalf, and Gandlaf was a Maia who didn't want to touch the Ring either.
@@daniels7907 It's interesting that Sauron was taken by surprise that the dwarves couldn't become wraiths, especially knowing the backstory that he was an apprentice of Aule, who created the dwarves (with Illuvatar's aid). But it seems he paid the dwarves little mind for the most part, so that may explain it.
@@Swiftbow - Eru may have tampered with the design so to speak. He's the one who granted the Dwarves their fea. The main reason Gimli couldn't carry the Ring was because his Dwarven instinct would have been to take it somewhere and horde it, along with any other treasure that he could find.
@@daniels7907 Interesting... dwarves and dragons kind of share that trait. Almost makes you wonder if the dwarves are somehow related to Morgoth's creation of the dragons. Since he could not have just granted them Fea on his own, but they are definitely sapient creatures.
Mount Doom was active only while Sauron was powerful and in control. Once he was defeated, the mountain slept. For all we know, with the violent ‘death’ of Sauron at the end of the second age, the Volcano began to lose it’s power almost immediately, and may not even have been capable of consuming the Ring.
If Isildur lives Arnor and Gondor probably wouldn't have been sundered. Perhaps Arnor wouldn't have been split up and destroyed. Yet the ring could have easily have destroyed Isildur and Arnor long before the Witch King appeared in Angmar. It's a tangled web which ever way you look at it. I tend to side with Elrond's view. The actual events were possibly the lesser of many possible evils. 😢😢😢❤😢😢😢
Lol true in a way I suppose. At least Isildur's death was due to random events beyond his control. Earnur galloped knowingly into danger out of pride and arrogance, and the result was costly indeed for a lot of people.
Isildur gets bad press. My daughter is a huge fan of the movies. She once blamed Isildur for everything, and said he had to be corrupt. So like a good father i reminded her of the white tree. That caught her off guard. What? I then told her how, in Numenor just before the fall..he had disguised himself...slipped into the royal courtyard, and had taken a fruit from the tree growing there in the capital. Thats the only reason the white tree was there in Minas Tirith..dead though it was. I then told her how Aragorn and Gandalf found a sapling growing on Mindolluin..that a new tree grew during Aragorn's reign. She seemed to soften toward Isildur...then she started reading.
how about a video that talks about the books that helped inspire lotr : works of william morris, she, the black douglas, babbit, the marvelous land of snergs, and the princess and the goblin.
To be honest, the character assassination of Isildur is the probably my biggest gripe with Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings movies. I can vaguely understand why for narrative purposes it was easier to minimise the amount of exposition, and it’s easier to tell a short simple introduction this way. But I don’t have to like it.
That might actually have worked in favor of casting the Ring into Orodruin's dormant magma chamber, where it would eventually be destroyed the next time the volcano became active. It would have provided a potential loophole to the impossibility of anyone being able to willingly destroy the Ring in Sammath Naur, because they would technically only be giving it up by dropping it into a dark chasm instead of immediately destroying it by dropping it into a chasm filled with molten lava. Then it would just be a matter of sealing off the entrance to Sammath Naur, possibly reinforcing that seal with the power of the Three Rings, and the One Ring would have sat inaccessible in the dark for however long it took before its inevitable destruction.
@@DamonNomad82 An interesting loophole, but I'm not sure it would work. I doubt the One Ring could be willingly relinquished at all inside Sammath Naur, let alone destroyed.
@@DamonNomad82 In spite of DG's objection above, that would be kind of an amazing outcome: Sauron decides to fire up the volcano to terrify everybody, and inadvertently destroys the Ring in the process! Although I get the feeling he might have been able to sense its presence, particularly in that location.
Isildur felt he deserved the one ring because of the death of his father but shouldn’t the elves have the same claim since the high king Gil-Galad also being killed by Sauron.
Elrond you could have saved us a heap of trouble had you been a Chad and did what should have and needed to be done. It was just you and him in doom, and all you would have had to do was fein ignorance and said he tripped over a rock and into the burn. Gimli said it best... Never trust an elf. Even half of one.
In the movie, whenever I see Elrond do his “I was there…” flashback, I always wonder why he didn’t just push Isildur off the ledge and into the lava instead of letting him just walk away. Silliest scene in the movies, and yes I know this didn’t happen in the books and yes I still love the movies. But bro really
What if the one Ring was destroyed at the end of the second age ISILDUR elendil gil galad and elrond coud have sworn an oath to destroy the one Ring What if the 7 father's of the dwarf's awakend in Mount cundabad What if all the elves went to valinor What if arvedui survived
Because the Ainur are naturally spirits and it's basically their home. They can take physical form to interact with the physical realm, and elves inhabit both worlds simultaneously. (Elves begin as more physical beings and slowly shift toward the unseen over their long, LONG lives. The elves that remained in Middle Earth eventually faded completely into spirit form... but they never went to Valinor.)
What would happen if Morgoth corrupted the race of Men like he did Elves? What beast would they turn into? Would the Valar lift their band early? Would these new beasts change the War of the Jewels? I'm imagining creatures like the Apostles from Berserk. But I want to know your thoughts?
Could it be possible to destroy the one ring in Valinor, I mean the Valar can do things that are way beyond sauron. Tulkas (aka Hulkas) could squeezed it to pieces.
@@thomasalvarez6456 Yes, Tolkien had huge changes in mind. You can find the outline of what he was planning in the later volumes (X-XII) of the HOME books although I'm not sure which exact volume has it.
I'm not so sure I agree with Darth on this one. Isildur was by then the High King of the Edain in his father Elendil's place. And he bore the malignant burden of the One Ring, which we know was already beginning to work its unwholesome influence on him even at this early time. Had he lived, who knows what it's evil might have driven him to do with his power as king? Make war on Gondor to enforce its obedience to his will? Make war on his former elvish or dwarvish allies to the same end? Visit an indiscriminate campaign of slaughter on the orcish race to avenge his father and brother? This is all contingent, of course, on the assumption that he would have ultimately chosen to retain ownership of the Ring. And, given the evidence that Tolkien(s) supplied us with - I believe he would have. I say this because of the fact that only one bearer in the entire history of the ring (not including Deagol and Gandalf who both only had it for a matter of minutes) ever surrendered it willingly - Samwise Gamgee. Remember - Gandalf had to intimidate Bilbo Baggins into relinquishing it. If you couple those odds up with Isildur's innately proud and rather vainglorious personality, the notion that he would have ever voluntarily given it up is a very doubtful proposition. But we cannot know for certain. It is just possible that with the right counsel and arguments from Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, and others who knew about the Rings of Power and their effects, he might have been able to bring himself to do it. This is all merely my semi-educated opinion, of course, but I think the Ring was altogether much better off at the bottom of the river than staying with King Isildur.
Yeah but if it wasn't a necessary plot point the reality is that the technology existed to dam and divert the river and have an army scour the dry bed until the ring was found. If it was that important they would have done that. Never look too deep into 😊Tolkein or it becomes ridiculous
Isildur is actually a good and noble man in the books, and was taking the ring to Rivendell as he couldn't bear it anymore.
Yeah he basically wanted seek help with Elrond of
1. what to do with it.
Then 2nd how to get rid and be free of its corruption.
It would be an interesting what if, could Isildur even give it up when it came to it? I think yes, in Rivendell with Elrond and others of the wise recommending it.
@@paulemge9156 But as the video points out, destroying it was another matter entirely. The Ring literally only was finally destroyed by ACCIDENT, when Golum inadvertently fell into the chasm of lava after stealing the ring back from Frodo. When it came to destroying it on purpose, even Frodo failed, in the end. So the One Ring would still be a threat, thousands of years later. And Sauron would know exactly where that ring was, if the Elves had it for all that time.
@jacob4920 It wasn’t really an accident, but divine intervention. However, suppose that Isilidur gives up the ring but puts it in a sealed container of some kind , that no one ‘owned’.
Then a party of the most noble take the container together to mount doom trading off on who carries the container as they journey and then someone who never held the container takes it and casts it into the lava?
The movie can't go into the details for such a minor character unfortunately. We all know Isildur was a big deal in the books, with honestly his most heroic achievement was saving the white tree. Also Aragorn isn't ashamed of Isildur, but instead doubts he can live up to him
Fun fact: The orcs that ambushed Isildur and his company were encouraged to dare an attack by the sad remnants of the Wood Elves´s army. This band of orcs was initially ordered to attack the armies of the last Alliance as they were making their way to Dagorlad, following the Anduin. They were terrified of the might of the assembled host and hid away. After Sauron´s defeat, the orcs witnessed the Wood Elves return home. Because so many Wood Elves died in the war of the Last Alliance, the orcs had the impression that their side won.
So in a way, Oropher´s fatal charge turned out to be a key piece in Isildur´s downfall. (You can read all of that in Unfinished Tales. What´s a bit weird though is the fact that two years passed between Sauron´s fall and Isildur´s departure to Arnor, and 9+ years between the Allied Forces moving south and Isildur returning, so these orcs waited a long time in the Wilderlands...)
I do enjoy some good Oropher slander.
I smell a Galadriel manipulation in the situation.
Must have been part of her plan to weaken the silvan elves so that her sindar minions will rule
In fairness to Isildur, him dying and events unfolding as they did is the only way the Ring could have been destroyed. No one was able to willingly destroy the Ring. Chance and Gollum are the only reasons for Frodo’s success
Edit: him dying saved everything!
This is why I'm always careful touching alternate history because we'll simply never know the truth.
I think Elrond would've pushed for the ring to be destroyed.
Don't know why but now I have a picture of Elrond yelling at Isildur's corpse that he ruined everything
"You were supposed to destroy the Ring, not join it!"
#highground
I don't think it was so much Isildur's death that ruined everything, but that none of Isildur's elder sons had a son. Elendur was 144, Aratan was 104, Ciryon was 64 and Valandil was 13.
Elendur and Aratan were old enough to have sired a son. Meneldil was 81 when Cemendur was born. So Elendur could have had a son who was 44 when his father and grandfather were killed, if Elendur was 100 when his son was born, which was the same age as Cemendur was. Also if Aratan had a son at 85, he would have been 19 when his father died.
Isildur's death allowed for the One Ring to be lost, which was a great disaster, but it wouldn't have been as bad if one of Isildur's sons had had a son. Also, being born when their fathers were that age, they would have been born in Gondor and known to the people, and the elder would likely have been involved in the was some how and gained favour with the people of Gondor and been expected as the new High King of Arnor and Gondor.
In a way it was Elendur who ruined everything by not having a son when he was more than old enough.
Interesting pov. Yes, one of the reasons for Arnor's rather swift decline and collapse relative to her sister kingdom to the south, was the accession of a number of child-monarchs to the throne, of which Valandil was the first. If history teaches us anything, it is: woe to the realm that is ruled by a child; Greedy and corrupt people take advantage of the power vacuum in such situations, and it just leads to inefficiency and chaos for the realm as a whole. Granted there were other factors to Arnor's decay (unfavorable climate, population depletion, natural disasters ect.), but the fact cannot be denied that the northern kingdom of the Dunedain had far more problems dynastically than her southern counterpart.
The fact that none of Isildur's other sons had children has always struck me as odd. Sure, there was a lot going on during their lives, but the fact that all three of them were childless feels like an oversight on Tolkien's behalf.
@@DarthGandalfYT, or maybe they were just unnamed and died in battle?
@@crusher0427 doubtful. We're told Isildur escaped with his family from Minas Ithil, thus indicating no-one died, and all four sons survived the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and only Elendur went into Mordor during the war indicates any children would be kept away from the fighting and would likely have stayed in Arnor, well away from the fighting like Valandil was to protect the House of Isildur, which could be why Isildur had another son, Valandil, so much later than his other sons. Whilst this plan worked it was never meant to be nesserly and would not have been needed if any of Isildur's sons had had a son
@@DarthGandalfYT Look at the house of Wessex. Edward the Elder had five sons who lived to adulthood. Only one of them married and just four decades after Edward's death there was one male member of the house left, king Edgar the Peaceful. Most sons of Ethelred the Unready who lived to adulthood also never married. It has been proposed that there were unofficial pacts where younger sons were kept in line by the promise of a future kingship when their elder brothers died without legitimate offspring. Tolkien just might have something like this in mind, although never spelled it out.
Let us be honest here, if the people of Numenor had remained faithfull, alot of things would have better!
Well if melkor had remained faithful to illuvatar..
Certainly. It was by their power that Sauron was defeated(at least in part) every time.
It's also interesting to think about what might have happened had a certain rock missed and Anarion survived the war. If Isildur then still died while returning north, Anarion would have been in position to claim the high kingship. Would he have gone to Arnor and left Meneldil in charge in Gondor? Or would he have decided to remain in Gondor and let the line of Isildur run Arnor?
It is possible that Anarion might have made an attempt at staking a claim to Arnor as well. But remember that Isildur was the elder brother, had always been something of the senior partner in the dual monarchy in Gondor, and (assuming the Disaster of the Gladden Fields played out the same way in this alternate timeline) would have still been survived by his child-son Valandil. Valandil would thus have still had the legally superior claim to the High Kingship over his uncle Anarion. Not that this would necessarily have stopped Anarion - perhaps the population of Arnor would have preferred the rule of a mature man, to say nothing of a victorious war hero, over a child of thirteen, whether legitimate or not. It ultimately would have depended on the extent of Anarion's ambition. I personally would like to believe that Anarion would have chosen to acknowledge his nephew's right to the crown of Arnor, and not dispute the High Kingship with him. By the time of Isildur's death, after all, he would have been getting on in years (he would have been 223), and it is just doubtful to me that at that age he would have wanted to shoulder the burden of a second kingdom. After all, ruling is tough!
If this was written by George R R Martin instead of Tolkien, we would have a tale about a civil war instead of a story of good against evil 🤣
@@aamil93Oh lord forbid, lol.
@@elagabalusrex390 If only we knew more about Anarion as a character. He's very much a blank slate character despite his importance to events.
@@DarthGandalfYTYes, a pity Tolkien never got around to fleshing him out as much as his father and brother. I would assume that given that he spent a lifetime of basically playing second fiddle to his elder brother, he must have had a degree of humility and cool-headedness to his character. Or perhaps he had a chip on his shoulder for the same reason. Alas, we cannot know...(although Tolkien did leave us one small clue. When Isildur crowned Meneldil as the third King of Gondor and departed to claim the throne of Arnor, it is written that Meneldil celebrated his uncle's and his family's departure for the North and hoped that they would long stay there. Perhaps this is a roundabout way of revealing that all was not well behind the scenes between the branches of royal family of the Edain, and that perhaps Anarion and his children were not as fond of their uncle and cousins as they seemed).
2:43 Estelmo? I thought that was Ohtar, now I´m confused :)
Different people. Ohtar (and an unnamed companion) were the ones who took Narsil back to Rivendell. They had left the battle at that point. Estelmo was Elendur's esquire, and was wounded, but managed to survive because Elendur's corpse fell atop him. He's the one who gives us the final account of Isildur.
@@DarthGandalfYT Thank you DG!
That last line was one heck of a burn to Isildur man!
I think it was pretty clear that Isildur was becoming corrupted by the One Ring, even if he had doubts. All people being corrupted by Sauron's rings probably had. Even Gandalf and Galadriel thought themselves incapable of taking control of it. Frodo couldn't resist its power. If he would have been able to resist, he would have been greatest human hero to ever live. More likely he indeed was on his way to becoming a future Ringwraith. Sauron would have won as a ringwraith Isildur would have returned the One Ring to Sauron when he returned.
Exactly, Isildur would have been one more Nazgul in the stable, and not even the most powerful.
the one ring does not have the ability to turn its holder into a wraith, you can clearly see this with gollum, that was exclusive to the lesser rings who were specifically crafted for that purpose the one ring was not. Isildur is one of the greatest men to ever live, he has a great deal of will power. frodo claims the ring for his own and goes all crazy in only 11 months. Isildur had control over himself for 2 entire years, and still had the wisdom to realise he must hand it to the elves in rivendell and did not let it influence his decision making. Saying Isildur would hand over the ring to Sauron somehow even though Sauron is banished from the world at this point is laughable and a complete misinterpretation of the character and what the one ring does.
The thing is, either the ring had to be destroyed or Isildur had to die to be freed from the One’s influence. Simply giving up the ring would not have been enough... he had to die to truly depart from what was becoming his precious
I knew about how the ring was lost because of Isildur's death, but this also causing the split of Gondor and Arnor is an interesting point. Good video!
didn't Gondor have control of Mordor at the time of his death? if he was really able to part with it tossing it in the volcano would be no harder than handing it to Elrond
No because the ring is stronger where it was made.
The will of the ring is strongest at Mount Doom. It has self preservation as of Sauron’s soul and will do anything not be destroyed.
I agree. His good intentions didn't guarantee that he would be able to follow through.
Yes! This is one of the major reasons I have to doubt the idea that Isildur would ever have surrendered the Ring had he survived the Gladden Fields. He had already had the chance to listen to the counsel of Elrond and Cirdan and destroy the Ring in Mordor immediately following Sauron's defeat. He declined it. Why would anything have changed down the the road? If we know anything about the way the One Ring works, um, we know its hold doesn't get weaker over the minds of mortals that carry it over time. He would probably never have let it go.
@@elagabalusrex390 and Gandalf made it clear that Bilbo alone had passed on the ring and it seemed to be a trait hobbits have that men did not
Another good what ‘if Khazad Dum survived a Balrog attack?’ Maybe the Balrog never wakes or the dwarves somehow kill it with the help of the Elves on either side of the misty mountains. Fat chance but it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Dwarves (especially the Long beards) prospered in the late third age.
I do wonder what would have happened had the World known about the Balrog due to some of the Dwarves escaping, I wonder what Sauron would have done had he heard this news which he no doubt would from his Orcs.
Would the Balrog even care about the happenings in Middle-Earth? I doubt it, but once it fully awoke there's no telling the damage it'd do, I suspect in a weird turn of events that it'd end up being Saruman rather than Gandalf confronting it for dominion over the area. Saruman would be able to fight the Balrog "easier" than Gandalf the Grey who he was the superior to before he became Gandalf the White.
Then we'd have Gandalf the Grey for the entirety of the Story, but I also wonder what would happen to Saruman then in this case, after all here he'd have died fighting against a great evil but not for good purposes.
I think he'd be given a second chance and of course he'd come back stronger than before, but would he be good now? Or continue to do dark deeds?
He could potentially even contest with Sauron more directly in his new state, all this happening from a Dwarf lol
The Balrog cleaning the entire fortress would make for an amazing albeit super dark movie or series, it must have been quite a struggle with many dwarves going willing to their deaths.
I think Elrond was right. It's really easy to imagine an outcome where Isildur's survival was worse, with him becoming a corrupt and powerful king, gradually sinking lower into lust for dominion, and eventually becoming a wraith, and probably under the complete control of Sauron after he re-manifests. I believe this is the most likely outcome. I think it more likely he would try to crush Imladris eventually, than to truly repent and surrender the Ring to Elrond.
Your video made me realize though: it's really unfortunate he didn't leave the governance of Gondor with Elendur. Rather than Meneldil, who seems implied to be an astute politician, rather than somebody truly concerned with the legacy of Elendil.
But then again, if Elendur isn't at Gladden Fields to persuade his father to flee, maybe an Orc ends up with the Ring, and it gets on Sauron's hand around T.A. 1000.
Interesting. Yes it isn't certain why exactly Isildur chose to arrange things the way he did as far as the rule of Gondor is concerned. He certainly had a large enough family of his own to choose a surrogate ruler from, including Elendur, as you point out. And one would logically think he would have preferred to leave one of his own children in charge in the South over a nephew that he barely knew, and didn't particularly like or trust (and vice-versa, a point Tolkien is very clear on). Prince Meneldil was 125 when Isildur crowned him King of Gondor, significantly younger than his own eldest son, who was 144 at the time, so it's not as though Meneldil had some exceptional experience or wisdom to offer. The only reason to my mind that holds any water for explaining why Isildur acted as he did is brotherly devotion. He and Anarion had escaped the destruction of Numenor together, had founded and ruled Gondor between them for 120 years, had built it literally from the ground up, and had been through hell and back again during the war against Sauron. The two were always an exceptionally close pair emotionally, and I believe Anarion's death during the siege of Barad-Dur aggrieved Isildur very deeply, perhaps more so than than even the death of his father Elendil. Therefore, what better way was there for him to honor his dead sibling than to bestow the kingdom they built together on his only surviving child? Fraternal love can be a powerful thing, after all.
@@elagabalusrex390 In honor of Anárion and unwillingness to be parted from his sons after so much loss are the only reasons that come to mind. It still seems odd.
Moral of the story: never die
Great video! I’m so thankful for the Unfinished Tales for showing us the real and noble Isildur, compared to what the movies made him to be.
Great video! Do a what if video on what if Isildur survived?
You're my favourite Tolkien channel.
Good video
Answering your question at the beginning about imagining what if a character survived instead of dying, you get that a lot frkm Doctor Who.hehe
Leaning more about Isildur from the books has made me reevaluate him. Especially since they didn't know the ring was "alive" at the time when he took it and he still decided that he should try to get rid of it later(whether or not he would have is unknown of course). Even Boromir who was strong and good who knew the ring could corrupt, wasn't able to resist the call of the ring entirely.
Yeah, he's a little unfairly depicted in the films.
Very good. I do think about this sometimes
What's crazy is isildur should have taken the sea route. And from grey flood they could have reached rivendel much sooner and much safer. Or even gap of rohan! Why head to the high pass, use the north-south road
To reach Rivendell, the High Pass was the fastest route. He also believed it was safe because a) Sauron was gone, b) the local Men were allies, and c) he was familiar with the territory. Unfortunately, it wasn't as safe as he thought.
@@DarthGandalfYT but wasn't high pass has stone giants and extreme weather still? And i belive travel by ship or establishes road and cities are much faster in the early ages.
@@DarthGandalfYT look at the map again gray flood and n-s road goas directly to the tharbad and greyflood goes even furthe to the rivendel
@@DarthGandalfYT sory i am geeking out here im gonna calculate it.
@@aklszkopek3470 Sea travel on the open ocean is not any safer than on land. There were multiple kings who died in a shipwreck, Isildur wouldn't be the first. As well, there isn't a good route from Tharbad to Imladris. The Mitheithel doesn't appear to be navigable for boats of any decent size, and the road from Thrbad requires going all the way to Bree. It is ultimately faster and safer in Isildur's mind to simply walk through friendly territory on recently improved roads. The UT footnotes have some of Tolkien's discussion of this.
Not knowing as much as I wish about LotR, I'm inclined to believe that this video's title is very fitting. Isildur (in the books at least) was convinced he could not handle the Ring's temptation. So had he not died on the way to Rivendell, much of the series could have been upended and completely changed. Tolkien, being the (unintentional) genius he was, did not chose that route and instead went "full fantasy" with it. Such that we get a story about two hobbits completely subverting the BBEG without ever truly encountering him XD
I think that if Isildur had survived the Gladden Fields, while still losing the Ring, he ultimately does not live long.
The biggest consequence would be the division of north and South
Even Hobbits like Bilbo and Frodo struggled with the One Ring, and at Mt. Doom Frodo proved unable to let it go. Gollum had to literally bite off the finger Frodo was wearing it on. So it's less clear that Isildur would have been able to make it to Rivendell before the Ring's corruptive influence changed his mind for him. Men do not have strong resistance to Sauron's booby-trapped Rings of Power in general (hence nine Nazgul). The One Ring is even worse. This is less a failing of Isildur than a vulnerability inherent in the race of Men that Sauron was happy to exploit. Additionally, the One Ring betrayed Isildur, which is how he was killed. So, even the best of intentions were not enough.
Well, Sauron DID presumably pick the recipients of the Nine. There's plenty of proof that men with strong wills to resist the Ring exist. Aragorn and Faramir come to mind. Granted, neither of them were willing to bear it, though.
@@Swiftbow - Sauron being Sauron, he almost certainly selected his ringbearers based on how susceptible he expected them to be to his control. Things didn't work as hoped with the Dwarves. But Men show less resistance, especially when they are under pressure (e.g. Boromir) or just hungry for power (e.g. the Nine who became the Nazgul). Aragorn and Faramir knew perfectly well that the One Ring *would* corrupt them, so they didn't want to touch it. Both of them had ties to Gandalf, and Gandlaf was a Maia who didn't want to touch the Ring either.
@@daniels7907 It's interesting that Sauron was taken by surprise that the dwarves couldn't become wraiths, especially knowing the backstory that he was an apprentice of Aule, who created the dwarves (with Illuvatar's aid).
But it seems he paid the dwarves little mind for the most part, so that may explain it.
@@Swiftbow - Eru may have tampered with the design so to speak. He's the one who granted the Dwarves their fea.
The main reason Gimli couldn't carry the Ring was because his Dwarven instinct would have been to take it somewhere and horde it, along with any other treasure that he could find.
@@daniels7907 Interesting... dwarves and dragons kind of share that trait.
Almost makes you wonder if the dwarves are somehow related to Morgoth's creation of the dragons. Since he could not have just granted them Fea on his own, but they are definitely sapient creatures.
Mount Doom was active only while Sauron was powerful and in control. Once he was defeated, the mountain slept. For all we know, with the violent ‘death’ of Sauron at the end of the second age, the Volcano began to lose it’s power almost immediately, and may not even have been capable of consuming the Ring.
If Isildur lives Arnor and Gondor probably wouldn't have been sundered. Perhaps Arnor wouldn't have been split up and destroyed. Yet the ring could have easily have destroyed Isildur and Arnor long before the Witch King appeared in Angmar. It's a tangled web which ever way you look at it.
I tend to side with Elrond's view. The actual events were possibly the lesser of many possible evils. 😢😢😢❤😢😢😢
I'd argue that earnur's death also messed up quite a lot. But he was a moron, so...
Lol true in a way I suppose. At least Isildur's death was due to random events beyond his control. Earnur galloped knowingly into danger out of pride and arrogance, and the result was costly indeed for a lot of people.
Isildur gets bad press. My daughter is a huge fan of the movies. She once blamed Isildur for everything, and said he had to be corrupt. So like a good father i reminded her of the white tree. That caught her off guard. What? I then told her how, in Numenor just before the fall..he had disguised himself...slipped into the royal courtyard, and had taken a fruit from the tree growing there in the capital. Thats the only reason the white tree was there in Minas Tirith..dead though it was. I then told her how Aragorn and Gandalf found a sapling growing on Mindolluin..that a new tree grew during Aragorn's reign. She seemed to soften toward Isildur...then she started reading.
how about a video that talks about the books that helped inspire lotr : works of william morris, she, the black douglas, babbit, the marvelous land of snergs, and the princess and the goblin.
Always remember to travel with more than 20 archers in your guard
To be honest, the character assassination of Isildur is the probably my biggest gripe with Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings movies. I can vaguely understand why for narrative purposes it was easier to minimise the amount of exposition, and it’s easier to tell a short simple introduction this way. But I don’t have to like it.
To be fair to Isildur, the ring wouldn't have been destroyed unless he died because he never planned on destroying it.
Could the Ring actually be destroyed when Orodruin was dormant? It only burst into flame again when Sauron returned to Mordor in the late Third Age.
Maybe there was still magma within Samath Naur even when it wasn’t erupting
That might actually have worked in favor of casting the Ring into Orodruin's dormant magma chamber, where it would eventually be destroyed the next time the volcano became active. It would have provided a potential loophole to the impossibility of anyone being able to willingly destroy the Ring in Sammath Naur, because they would technically only be giving it up by dropping it into a dark chasm instead of immediately destroying it by dropping it into a chasm filled with molten lava. Then it would just be a matter of sealing off the entrance to Sammath Naur, possibly reinforcing that seal with the power of the Three Rings, and the One Ring would have sat inaccessible in the dark for however long it took before its inevitable destruction.
@@DamonNomad82 An interesting loophole, but I'm not sure it would work. I doubt the One Ring could be willingly relinquished at all inside Sammath Naur, let alone destroyed.
@@DamonNomad82 In spite of DG's objection above, that would be kind of an amazing outcome: Sauron decides to fire up the volcano to terrify everybody, and inadvertently destroys the Ring in the process! Although I get the feeling he might have been able to sense its presence, particularly in that location.
Isildur felt he deserved the one ring because of the death of his father but shouldn’t the elves have the same claim since the high king Gil-Galad also being killed by Sauron.
If he couldnt destroy it in mount doom why on earth would he willingly give it to another? doesnt make sense even after this realisation.
Elrond you could have saved us a heap of trouble had you been a Chad and did what should have and needed to be done. It was just you and him in doom, and all you would have had to do was fein ignorance and said he tripped over a rock and into the burn. Gimli said it best...
Never trust an elf. Even half of one.
That was only in the movie. In the books, Elrond and Cirdan counseled Isildur against keeping it, but none of them ever went to the Crack of Doom.
this is great
In the movie, whenever I see Elrond do his “I was there…” flashback, I always wonder why he didn’t just push Isildur off the ledge and into the lava instead of letting him just walk away. Silliest scene in the movies, and yes I know this didn’t happen in the books and yes I still love the movies. But bro really
The war between Duneidan and Elves would have been a disaster. I remember some other YT taking the same idea.
Yeah... "sorry Isildur, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the you", *buttkick*.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 nah just say buddy tripped. How they gonna know?
@@johanneskaiser8188 We need to create a company and make these as shorts. Stll 1000x than TROP:
@@Lawrence_Talbot You remember Númenóreans, Elves and even Lesser Men were capable of Wisdom, do you?
What if the one Ring was destroyed at the end of the second age
ISILDUR elendil gil galad and elrond coud have sworn an oath to destroy the one Ring
What if the 7 father's of the dwarf's awakend in Mount cundabad
What if all the elves went to valinor
What if arvedui survived
Can anyone tell me why the unseen world exists?
Because the Ainur are naturally spirits and it's basically their home. They can take physical form to interact with the physical realm, and elves inhabit both worlds simultaneously. (Elves begin as more physical beings and slowly shift toward the unseen over their long, LONG lives. The elves that remained in Middle Earth eventually faded completely into spirit form... but they never went to Valinor.)
@@Swiftbow Thanks
What would happen if Morgoth corrupted the race of Men like he did Elves? What beast would they turn into? Would the Valar lift their band early? Would these new beasts change the War of the Jewels? I'm imagining creatures like the Apostles from Berserk. But I want to know your thoughts?
Men too were corrupted into Orcs. In his later writings, which he didn't finish, he wanted to shift the origins of orcs from Elves to Men.
@@istari0That would have made the race of men be born earlier, he’d have to retcon a lot more.
Could it be possible to destroy the one ring in Valinor, I mean the Valar can do things that are way beyond sauron.
Tulkas (aka Hulkas) could squeezed it to pieces.
@@thomasalvarez6456 Yes, Tolkien had huge changes in mind. You can find the outline of what he was planning in the later volumes (X-XII) of the HOME books although I'm not sure which exact volume has it.
@@ulbingelias6894 I'm sure there were any number of ways the Valar could destroy the One Ring. Aulë would have easily been able to destroy it.
I dont get what all the fuss about isildur's hair is. From what ive seen, he had a pretty normal style
I'm not so sure I agree with Darth on this one. Isildur was by then the High King of the Edain in his father Elendil's place. And he bore the malignant burden of the One Ring, which we know was already beginning to work its unwholesome influence on him even at this early time. Had he lived, who knows what it's evil might have driven him to do with his power as king? Make war on Gondor to enforce its obedience to his will? Make war on his former elvish or dwarvish allies to the same end? Visit an indiscriminate campaign of slaughter on the orcish race to avenge his father and brother? This is all contingent, of course, on the assumption that he would have ultimately chosen to retain ownership of the Ring. And, given the evidence that Tolkien(s) supplied us with - I believe he would have. I say this because of the fact that only one bearer in the entire history of the ring (not including Deagol and Gandalf who both only had it for a matter of minutes) ever surrendered it willingly - Samwise Gamgee. Remember - Gandalf had to intimidate Bilbo Baggins into relinquishing it. If you couple those odds up with Isildur's innately proud and rather vainglorious personality, the notion that he would have ever voluntarily given it up is a very doubtful proposition. But we cannot know for certain. It is just possible that with the right counsel and arguments from Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, and others who knew about the Rings of Power and their effects, he might have been able to bring himself to do it. This is all merely my semi-educated opinion, of course, but I think the Ring was altogether much better off at the bottom of the river than staying with King Isildur.
Algormancy!
-Adam- Isildur ruins everything.
Fingolfins death ruined more
I would say Finrod's death was the most disastrous. It ensured Nargothrond would have nothing to do with the Feanorians.
@@DarthGandalfYT Do a video on what if Celegorm became King of Nargothrond?
Yeah but if it wasn't a necessary plot point the reality is that the technology existed to dam and divert the river and have an army scour the dry bed until the ring was found. If it was that important they would have done that. Never look too deep into 😊Tolkein or it becomes ridiculous