Compact Tractor Hydraulics Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- Compact tractor hydraulics explained by Ken from Bolt on Hooks and Tractor Time with Tim! Great information for new tractor owners and experienced owners.
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Tim and Ken, what an excellent explanation and illustration of a typical hydraulic system. This is a great “go-to” video that answers a lot of basic questions about tractor hydraulics. Blessings to all!
Excellent discussion on the tractor hydraulics. A lesson for everyone.
Great video guys. Simply explained and to the point. Very informative.
Love it. Thanks for this, it’s important for all tractor owners to understand what these machines are doing “behind the scenes”
Liked the explanation of the power beyound.
This is great stuff, very informative and useful for a student like myself going through agricultural mechanic training. I'll be watching your content regularly, thanks for the uploads!
Good video explaining the way hydraulics work! And nice to see a local guy (Ken) on your channel!
Thx for posting Tractor Tim! Very helpful...
That was very interesting and informative. Thanks for Keeping It Simple for us folks. I look forward to seeing the flow testing & results too. Thanks again Tim, Ken & Christy.
Interesting. Anxious to see the test results and learn more about how my tractor works. Great job!
Thanks for presenting this video. Great Information.
Good morning Tim and Ken. Very very helpful episode - thanks! And thanks for taking the time to edit in the pictures as you spoke to help me understand the information. Tim - Thanks - excellent content. Ken, let me know when you set up a distributor for Canada! Cheers - all the best guys!
This video got me over the hump of understanding how this works. Thank you!
This is how a gear pump works in a nutshell. As the gears are turning on the suction side a tooth is pulling out of a pocket between teeth and causes a small void and draws a small amount of vacuum. 14.7psi of atmospheric pressure pushes the fluid into that void via the breather on the reservoir. The fluid is carried around the gears and on the pressure side a tooth is going into a pocket between two teeth and this creates flow. Pressure is a product of resistance to flow.
Pp
As others have said the power beyond explanation was good. Simplified it in my mind. Thanks!
Good job Kenny and Tim. 👍
Tim Ken great stuff this what most of us need thank you
God Bless All
PaK
Thanks guys. Great instructional video
Great Video Tim 👍 You may want to get Ken to talk about been Safe while working around these High Pressure Hoses. The High Pressure Hydraulic Hoses can hurt you bad if they get a hole in them while under pressure
Came across this vid today. Great knowledgeable guest on fluid hydraulics. Thank you for your presentation.
Great video!
Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Super informative as always.
Very informative!
Awesome video and thanks for providing great information. I’m looking forward to the video on the hydraulic flow tests.
Thanks for the straight forward explanation.
Great video guys. Learned a lot.
Could not wait to watch this. Kenny is a great asset to GTT .
Love the education. Thanks.
Great explanation. Looking forward to the flow test episode
Thank you for the lesson of the day Prof. Tim and Prof. Ken. Should make for a good educational and entertaining series.
Thanks for explaining to me how this works. I was told to keep my mini excavator on high because of the pump now I understand why
I always knew how hydraulics worked but I wasn't exactly sure where to put the pressure relief loop. Now that y'all talk about it it makes perfect sense. This will help me figure out how to put a small hydraulic system on a riding lawn mower. I want to build my own implements rototiller, log splitter, auger etc.
Although you talked about the loop always being on. I'm going to be able to disengage the pump to prevent bulging down my engine when I'm not using the hydraulics.
It won’t use much power as long as there is no pressure. The only time pressure is generated is when hydraulics are actually doing something. So no need to turn off pump.
Ken lives close to me, stopped in and picked up some hooks and parts in person and have had shipped a couple times. Great products, works with local vendors and better pricing than box stores
Where does he live. I'm in western Maryland.
@@joshuaplacka8480 We are in Westminster MD
Thanks Joe!
Really really useful thank you!!
Good morning Tim !
Great info, very helpful!
One thing I have heard from way to many people is statements that resemble ‘my hydraulics have no flow/pressure until I operate a valve’.
Ken and you addressed this on the flow side quite well. Less so with how pressure works in the system.
Now I realize that typical operation stays under that relief valve pressure, I also realize there are mays to increase the pressure in the system up to that relief valve setting. You addressed this as well in the deadhead examples and the overloaded examples. There are others as well.
Bottom line without pressure (however not necessarily max pressure) there is no flow. But as Ken and you discussed, there can be pressure without flow (deadhead) until the relief valve activates and flow (not full volume) is restored.
Yes, maybe we shoulda explicitly talked about normal 'pressure'. In this system, you will see maximum flow all of the time. The loop will always be flowing. When no work is being performed (no hydraulics actually used), there will be very little pressure. The only pressure will be what we call 'parasitic pressure' caused by restrictions in the loop. For example, 90 degree elbows, couplers, etc.
We have tested roughly 100 psi in this scenario. The pressure only increases when hydraulics are used, and then only sufficiently to perform the action. So, if the loader is empty, it might take only 500psi to lift it. If full, it might take 1900psi.
So, the phrase "my hydraulics has no pressure until I operate a valve" is essentially correct...and close enough to help understand the system. ...but it DOES have FLOW.
One other point. this is an 'Open Center System'. Closed center is used on larger tractors and is different.
Great Info
Great info and more info to come, 👍🏻
Good stuff!!!
Great video, Flow=Fast, Pressure=Power
Pressure is force, not power. Power is force x time. Cheers!
Curious where you are going to take the flow measurements from as there are a couple school of thoughts on that. Good explanation of an open center system.
all good stuff
How fast and how much.
Good explanation.
Good episode, that was informative. :)
Wonderful explanation. Now as to your comment on the difficulty of connections for a flow test, if your tractor has a power beyond loop, would it be easy enough just to tap in right there at the quick connectors? If I understood correctly, that's just a longer length of the main loop so it should have full flow and pressure right? So it's just a matter of some easy connections and the cost of the gauge/s. Love your videos, keep up the good work!
And now I know. Thanks guys!!!
I learned something today
Wow, I had no idea Ken was here in Maryland! Only about 45 min. from me. Looking forward to buying some stuff from him & using coupon code TTWT, lol.
Great explanation of the hydraulics.
I want to make sure I got the explanation correct. I have watched a few of your videos. With the summit valves I just need to hook up the valve to the output of the backhoe and then the other side of the valve to where the backhoe originally connected.
Yep! You got it!
flow can be done with a water meter and the correct hydro lines connected just make sure the machine is off before connecting and make sure the machine comes completely off before disconnecting. water meters aren't designed for the higher pressures until you get to sky scraper meters.
Summary flow test can be done by timing the speed of raising the FEL empty.
Great video. Thanks a lot. I learned a lot. I love your scripture quotes at the end your videos.
Hey I know you have done this before but I need a few links . A while back you posted a link for Tie Down Straps ( I think ) The heavy duty tire down straps I buy from TSC are a pain to operate. I mainly use them for tying down hay loads .
Why don't they call it "fluid beyond" instead of "power beyond"? :-) Great video and explanation. Us newbies to subcompact tractors appreciate it.
We got a pre-owned Mahindra 1533 last November and it came with a backhoe from the manufacturer. The main seat swivels backwards. I am curious (with the backhoe off) what it would take to connect onto the back hydraulic line and to bring a (pair) line to the front loader for a grapple. Obviously it needs a controller between the line and the front. Is that all? perhaps even use/steal the backhoe controllers?
As an analogy, seems oil pressure is like voltage and oil flow is like amperage. Pressure does the work and flow gives the power.
Unplug power beyond loop connect each end to flow guage.
Here's a test you could do. Test the pressure loss of a short hose to one say triple the length. Then let folks know why steel lines are used as much as possible. A set of calipers gives a good visual. ;)
Tim Really Really like this video!! Going to use it for my Ag class here at EC! If you ever are home I'd love to have you come talk to the class about your channel a little bit!
That would be loads of fun!
Contact me via email. Tim at tractor time with Tim dot com
…and check out last year’s Ohio state University video if you haven’t seen it.
Think of pressure as voltage and flow was amperage. In hydraulics if the flow is low but pressure is normal (voltage is normal) then you have a bypass somewhere. If it is not popping the relief valve where ever the bypass is will heat up. We used to test dual hydraulic motors by placing them under heavy load and the one that got hot was the bad one. We did have a testing device called a hydrosluth back in the 70’s that you could use to isolate the suspected component to test it. If the flow is low but the pressure is ok not much work will get done, think of low current as low flow.
First Comment. Thanks for the basics on hydraulics.
Great explaination. Can you reverse the connections to the port to make the cylinder work the opposite without doing any damage, for example, can I reverse the loader to the raise position and make it go down instead and vice versa?
Yes.
Can you do a show on adding a secondary pump to a pto so you can use available HP to use front mounted brushes, blowers, mowers, hole diggers or anything else with high flow requirements and can two systems be combined to increase total flow?
We have shown a front loader mount mower with rear hydraulic power pack.
No, systems cannot be combined.
Great video Tim, Currently 6,333 views and 675 likes. I am not sure I have ever seen >10% "like" content!
Great information. Is the pressure relief mounted in line or in the pump and can it be adjusted to increase pressure.
Mostly they need to be shimmed if and when it is safe to raise it Google your specific machine there will likely be a forum on how to do it
Hi guys, great video,was wondering if you could direct me to info on bleeding the hydraulics in the backhoe of a mahindra e25 max.I had to change a line on the bucket, which worked fine, but since that the boom and swing function dont work properly.
Just extend all the way then bring it all the way back in several tiems
Hello Tim and community!! I'm adding a JD 260B backhoe to my JD4100 HST. The tractor already has a 200CX loader. Because Power Beyond kits are basically no longer available for the 4100 (the ones I did find are over $500, I need some guidance on assembling my own kit from off the shelf parts. I have read that the 90 degree fittings, hoses and quick connects needed are similar to a JD 2520 as follows:
DSCV BLOCK, FRONT PORT
9-6805-6-6 SAE 6M TO 3/8" NPTF 90 ELBOW, QTY=1
DSCV BLOCK, REAR PORT
9-6901-6-6 SAE 6M TO 3/8" NPTF 90 SWIVEL, QTY=1
9-5503-6-63/8" NPTM TO 3/8" NPTF 45 ELBOW, QTY=1
PB HOSES
903-3836 3/8" X 36" 3/8 NPTM X 3/8 NPTM 2750 PSI HYD HOSE, QTY=2
9-A2-172-D 3/8 IN SINGLE WIRE DUAL HYDRAULIC HOSE CLAMP, QTY=1
VALVE INLET/OUTLET PORTS TO PB HOSES
9-6901-8-6 SAE 8M x 3/8 NPTF 90 SWIVEL, QTY=2
VALVE WORK PORTS TO DIRECT ATTACHED QUICK COUPLERS
9-6902-8-6 SAE 8M x 3/8 NPTF 45 SWIVEL, QTY=4
9-7184 3/8" NPTM - 3/8" NPTM HEX NIPPLE, QTY=4
9-7381-F 3/8 NPTF QUICK COUPLER, QTY=4
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated if I'm on the right track and where do you recommend ordering hydraulic components.
Oh, the video on the Summit hydraulic rear connection kit was awesome as was the adding power beyond videos. Great job!!
discounthydraulichose.com or summit-hydraulics.com use code ttwt for 5% at each site.
What would cause high pressure, but weak hydro transmission in an X748? Anti cavitation screens partially blocked? Or something else?
If you are going to add a valve to the power beyond (if you have those hoses on your tractor) you must install a control valve that has a power beyond port (as is or with a special PB plug). A regular control valve only has tank return (low pressure) and will damage the hydraulic system.
Yes. The summit-hydraulics rear hydraulic kits that we promote are rated for ‘back pressure’. So, they can handle being directly in the PB circuit.
Check out our later episodes showing this kit.
Very interesting. I would be interested on Ken's opinion on those bigger more flow pumps.
I'm curious how he feels about the PTO driven power packs. They look like a good investment if the need is right.
We showed a PTO power pack earlier this week.
@@TractorTimewithTim I was wanting to ask what Ken's thoughts are on Kevin's hydrosplus bigger hydraulic pumps on a 1025R for more hydraulic oil flow. To see if Ken thought it would be a good idea or not.
@@philsmock4943 As of now, I think think the Hydroplus solution is fantastic! Kevin put an insane amount of work into it and I have confidence it will hold up well.
My 2038R does not have a rear remote or. 3rd function for a grapple. I would like to get a rear remote installed. Would you recommend mother Deere or an aftermarket like WR Long .
Deere for the rear remotes. Artillian diverter for the 3rd function up front.
Can you estimate the flow by just taking the diameter and length of travel for a cylinder (or two if it's a loader), and then time it and calculate the volume of fluid that moved into the cylinder(s) during that period of time to get gallons per minute?
Yes.
I like to know Ken’s thoughts of the high flow pump you featured on one of your other videos. If he like it or not. 👍
His thoughts are fully reflected in my statements about the solution in the first video.
He and I and Kevin have discussed this many times.
Some concern about heat, but most questions have been answered. While it seems impossible at first glance, it seems to be working fine.
Hopefully we’ll continue to get feedback from users of the system.
i figured you would talk about open and closed loop systems, most Deere are closed loop I think, I know 40 series are
Small ones are all open center.
Hopefully you gentlemen will develop a kit to reposition the rear hydraulic ports on a LX 2610 or LX 3310. It seems Kubota didn't know the tractor would have a ROPS in the way when locating them. Sad situation on an otherwise great design.
Had a thought to propose for resolution. Take a pair of Ken's ROPS clamps and attach one of his diverters to each one so they are outside the ROPS like ears on the tractor. Use through mount switches that can be cut into the plastic, one in front of each of the rear remote levers. Run a hose pair from the current rear remote block to each of the two diverter boxes. Solves problem, and doubles capacity. Make flat face females on the blocks an option so hydraulic fluid is not always leaking down the fenders :-). This way I could use the ditch bank flail and not have to disconnect the hydraulic top link. Haven't yet located a workable hydraulic tilt for this tractor. Keep up the great work!
What stops the flow after line repair change? No fluid is flowing into my rear element panel, so nothing on the back is working.
I have a bit of a power beyond horror story for you. When I worked at the Mahindra dealer, we had a customer buy a Max26 with power beyond and backhoe. He apparently didn't realize the power beyond hoses had to be connected together when the backhoe wasn't attached. This tractor came back with 11 hours on it, with a hydraulic pump split in half. Mahindra would not cover it under warranty, since it was due to the owner not reading his manual. I should also add they have yellow tags on the ends of the hoses with instructions on what to do. We went round and round with him, and Mahindra, trying to come to an amicable solution. Long story short, the tractor never left our shop, and Mahindra repossessed it because he refused to pay the bill.
Seems like a poor design to not have the relief valve plumbed in before the power beyond. If Mahindra had done that, then it would’ve been fine.
If it works like your diagram, how would it ever be possible to send fluid to 2 cylinders at once? It looks like whichever cylinder is first in line will stop all flow from the following cylinders.
Good informative video guys. Can i bring my 3E down and join the flow testing party? Ha ha
Sure!
I have a shaver Hd8 post pounder. I would like to put it on my 3025e on the power beyond. It has two hoses. One pressure going in and one that hooks to a case drain. Could I make a loop like you have Tim that had a T on it to feed the pounder so it doesn’t block the loop but feeds off it. The relief hose on the pounder has to go to a case drain so the pounder will fall as it should. Thanks for any help you can give. Im hoping the T will work.
Anytime you say ‘T’ in open center Hydraulics, you are typically on the wrong track.
My 2R (same basic tractor) has 3 ports for PB. P, R, and T.
Pressure, return, and tank. If you have that, you are set! If not, work with your dealer to get a direct tank drain line.
The R line goes to the 3 point…it is not a direct tank drain.
@@TractorTimewithTim thanks. I will work with them to try to find the right configuration. Best wishes and always great work. 🙌
Now cover open vs closed circuit spools! :)
No need really for our audience. All compact tractors are open center.
you can measure the flow by counting the time a cylinder with known volume takes to extend, for free
👍
Question... during winter warm ups, will it harm the pump to hold down on the hydro pedal for any length of time???
oh yes... while in the netural position.
I dunno. Never even thought of that!
Sorry if this has already been addressed but, is there any concern for how far you are extending the loop with an attachment? In other words, is there a possibility that you could extend it so far that it would drain the reservoir? I think I understand that the reservoir holds a good bit of fluid so it may not be a concern at all but was just curious. Thanks.
Keep adding oil :-)
How to a tractor hydraulics deutz 3006 to come out air?
I carry about 600lbs lifted mid way on my 3 point heavy hitch on my 1025r. At idle I always have a little whine coming from the hydraulics. Increase the rpms and it goes away. Reposition the 3 point and it goes away then comes back after reposition. So I shouldn’t be carrying around 3 point ballast at idle if it whines? And that whining is the relief valve? Can you answer this for us 1025r folks and what we should do? Thanks for a great video.
Sounds like the relief valve. Might be worth showing the dealer. It is not normal. Does it do the same thing with less weight on the 3 pt.
@@TractorTimewithTim With no weight on the 3-point for ballast I have no noise. Only with weight for ballast do I get the noise at idle.
How about moderate weight on the 3 point.
This was very helpful to explain “power beyond”. I keep hoping for diction to a helpful/reasonable and elegant professional way to add top link hydraulics to my Kubota BX23S without trying to MacGyve a Deere system. Tim, now that you have Kubota as well, can you address that?
Yes. The summit system shown on the 1025r will work beautifully on your Bx.
@@TractorTimewithTim As I understand it that supplies the manifold for the valves. Does it include valves and where would the controls be mounted?
If you have power beyond, this kit provides the rest. There is a ROPS mounted bracket for the control switches. Check out this video for close ups.
Introducing NEW Rear Hydraulic Solution for Subcompact Tractors
@@TractorTimewithTim Thanks for that reminder - i will review that video again. I apologize for being dense but since the BX23S comes with a backhoe I do have two connections for the controls mounted on the backhoe and the power beyond connections for continuing the loop when the controls are not calling for flow. The manifold clearly gets inserted in the power beyond circuit and the switches control the solenoids to open or close the additional circuits. But this leaves out the critical valve controls for controlling flow in the additional circuits, mounting hardware for such controls, not to mention the additional hoses to connect the valves to the manifold and to the additional rear link hydraulic piston. I am looking for a ‘complete” solution that has both the manifold, is controls and the necessary valve control (for controlling the piston) and importantly, a thought out mounting bracket that is both conveniently located and does not get in the way of that miserable seat swiveling operation or the backhoe. Cobbling these parts together in an elegant fashion is what I am seeking, much like the third function hydraulics in the front which Kubota designed. Right now, it seems a simpler if not easier solution is to simply use long hoses connected to the front third function hydraulics, and draped around the tractor to the new top link cylinder in the rear which can therefor allow use of the grapple valve controls already available.
Well, I have to apologize for part of the confusion. You said bx23s. Of course you have power beyond! Sorry about that.
Now, about the switches. These are on/off circuits. So the switches control the flow to the ram to open or close. All or nothing.
This makes the installation much simpler.
It minimizes the number of hoses.
Make sense?
Roughly electrically... Flow is voltage, Pressure is amperage, load is resistance. 10K volts at tiny amperage won't hurt you, static shock. 120 volts at 10 amps may kill you. So 100 gallons an hour at low pressure is a trash pump. One half gallon an hour at 10k PSI will cut your finger off.
my Kubota mechanic told me if i unhook the backhoe and not re-hook up the power beyond to the return hose, it will blow up the hydraulic pump in 3 seconds if i start the tractor, 1. is that true, 2, does that mean power beyond doesn't have a relief valve ?
That is incorrect, you do have a PRV. Still not a good idea to run the tractor without the PB lines connected though.
I bought my 1025R in April of 2017 and my dealer wound up taking the backhoe off a unit he had in stock in June because they were backordered from the factory. All of the hydraulics are still there but, it doesn't have a connector hose between the P and R couplers like I see on the one in the video. Is that an oversight on the dealers part? I always notice a high pitched noise coming from behind me whenever I use the tractor and am constantly checking the hydraulic fluid to make sure it isn't low and causing the noise. Am I in danger of ruining my tractor/pump?
Yes, the P and R need to ALWAYS be connected together! This is a problem.
Thanks, Tim, I'll get in touch with my dealer tomorrow and hopefully they will step up and do the right thing.
Nice topic. We could use more though :-) So, my question related to hydraulics, my JD dealer could not answer, hmm: to get a bearing established we are sitting on the 1025R seat and looking forward. With the bucket flat on the ground , and it is in float mode (so no pressure in the loader pistons ) and you start lifting the bucket ( raising the boom)… the right boom, aka the right side of the bucket too, starts to lift before the left boom starts to lift. It’s not a lot but it is visible. And with a load on the front it’s even more noticeable. Why is this ? Watching your vid it did not explain when there are two pistons open at the same time and doing the same function, what happens. Is this related in the since the left boom is sort of starved for ‘flow’ for a short period ? Hope I explained myself.
Yes. The answer is simple. The oil flows to the area of the least pressure (resistance) first.
While I don’t notice the right side first phenomenon normally, it would make sense given the shorter hose lengths to this cylinder.
It would take slightly more pressure to raise the left side.
Does that help?
@@TractorTimewithTim yes that helps and it’s logical ,kind of like daisy chaining water sprinklers sort of. I have re-watched your vid on load capacity where your bucket was flat in your barn. Didn’t notice the right boom leading off as I explained but that is hard to view in detail from that vid. Some day put your bucket down, float it, then very very slowly raise and see if you can see what I am experiencing if you can. This is my 6 tractor and I can not remember back in the day of my 3 Kubotas did this. Last two were big tractors and honestly it was hard to even see the bucket. Your work is great and even though I have had lots of experience I have learned so much from your vids and honest and candid opinions.
On a 1 series is the hydraulic pump in the transmission? My x series, I would love to see a video of a x series working side by side to see how much more the 1 series can do.
There is only one reservoir, shared by hydraulics and hydrostatic transmission, yes.
The pump we are talking about is mounted on the rear of the transmission, the thing that says HEMA on it and has the steel tubes attached to it. While the hydrostatic transmission is pump in itself, it not used to power the implements/attachment on the tractor.
@@kdeckster my x585 only has one set of lines coming off the front of the transmission which if you follow the schematic it feeds the steering first then the implements
@@KirtH27 Sorry, I'm just not familiar with the hydraulics on the x-series
@@boltonhooks2149 No problem, I wish I lived closer to TTWT I would love to compare the X Series with a loader to a 1 series.
Do you know if Hydraulics use a lot of electricity to lift something, or does the device itself make the action of lifting less strenuous on the machine lowering the energy needed to lift it?
Very little electricity….just enough to ‘switch’ the valve. The lifting is done by the tractors hydraulic pump.
Help!
I bought a ford 1920 tractor(1996 year) model and it has the added two cylinder valve block. One is for top link and one for right link. If I pull up lift it does nothing until I move one of the added levers, then load will raise. Is it plumbed wrong??? Drives me crazy when blading or raking!
Thank You
Sounds like it is plumbed wrong.
@@TractorTimewithTim I think so too! I'm seeking someone who has the same setup to help me out. I'm baffled by the fact that either lever can be moved for one second and it raises 3-point. It's like it is tied into draft sensing circuit. Maybe it needs to be on it's own pump. It does NOT have a loader.
My bucket seems like I need to build up pressure or it's a little floppy with the bucket tilt function, any ideas what would cause that?
Read the sticky thread about "regeneration" or "regen" in the hydraulics forum on the GTT site
You have air in your cylinders. Air is compressible so when you operate the valve the air will become compressed by the hydraulic oil and the floppy ness lessons. You will need to bleed the air out of your cylinders. Air can enter when you uncouple & couple the quick disconnects.
@@michaeleisinger8668 The systems self-purge air, there is no need to "bleed" them.
Flow=Speed
Pressure=Power
Probably a dumb question... Do hydraulic line extensions come with fluid in them? Or do they reduce what's in the reservoir?
They use oil from the reservoir.
My 2015 1025R. 3 point hitch, when in the all the up position it will take like 10 seconds and drop about 1 inch then bounce back to the full height again. Would you have an answer for why this is happening?
I think I have seen this. ...but cannot remember solution for certain. Can you try adjusting the rate of drop control (knob just under the seat).
@@TractorTimewithTim I have tried that. I have slowed all the way down and sped all the way up. Makes no difference.