I like to think it's a recent adaptation. with poison being super-effective against grass, i think it's likely that many of the grass-types evolved a poison typing in competition with each other as they competed for space, which would help explain why the tangela population have been pushed back to a spot with no other grass types. it could also be a defensive evolution to resist predation from bug-types, which would also explain why tangela aren't viable in a place like viridian forest.
This is such an absurd concept to take so seriously and attempting to be objective and speculative I love it. (I think in yellow the pidgey numbers in early game are probably an anime reference where Ash and Pikachu got overwhelmed?? Same with 1% find in yellow for its evolved form lol)
The dex descriptions says that poliwhirl can live on land, but it needs to sweat to keep its body slimy, so they prefer to stay in water. It also says that it stays in water to avoid predation and have more prey. Polywrath's dex says that its a incredible swimmer but prefers to live on dry land. So the idea that mankeys go after them makes sense. Awesome video!
This series is so cool, I wish I checked it out earlier. There's some evidence to support the idea that Tangela are battling extinction, not just in Kanto but across the Pokemon world. Several rare Kanto pokemon such as Chansey, Scyther, Lickitung and Rhyhorn are actually rather common in Hisui or Sinnoh. To me this indicates that Kanto is not their native land and that they can't properly reproduce and compete because they are specialized for Sinnoh/Hisui's climate. The same seems to be true for Tangela since they have pretty decent numbers in Hisui. However, flash forward 150-200 years later and they can only make due within the confines of a Safari Zone in Sinnoh. It isn't much better in other regions. Tangela is doomed to show up on one, maybe two routes. Tangela's evolution, Tangrowth, can only be achieved with the help of Ancient Power. It doesn't exist naturally anymore, likely because it takes up too many resources. Tangela are almost always found near large bodies of war or just incredibly humid locations, so they likely need a lot of moisture to function and Tangrowth would be even worse off because of its size. Iirc irl species like amphibians suck at handling sudden changes in climate because of their reliance on moisture, so it's probably a similar deal for Tangela. So, yeah. Tangela just aren't built for the modern climate of the Pokemon world and if humans ever get bored of taking care of them, they'll definitely go extinct.
I know the Nidos have 2 pokedex entries because of early installment weirdness but i like to think those two were a result of some sort of convergent evolution.
That would be a fun idea, but I think the (fairly) unique breeding rules of nidoran females being able to make both male and female nidoran shows that they're one species. For every other Pokémon, they can only reproduce their own species, (other than ditto of course) and nidoran (and illumise) being the exception would be hard to explain. That being said, Pokémon breeding in general is hard to explain, and is a problem I dread talking about eventually.
Fantastic idea and fascinating video as always. I really like the use of learnsets to derive the behavior and combat-specific needs of Pokemon in each particular environment, and I think the idea could even be expanded to explain more of the ecology, taking some cues from both ethology and behaviorism, if we allow ourselves to be a bit liberal in the interpretation of what learnsets represent as an abstraction and especially in what "moves" actually are. It actually makes me want to try my hand at applying these ideas to another Pokemon game, but no promises. Re: Poliwag's hypnosis move - here's where I'd be a bit cautious about inferring future changes to typing from current environmental pressures: The association being made here is based on type advantage, with Poliwag's psychic-type move against the fighting-type Mankey, but Poliwag is not currently making use of this type advantage, with hypnosis being a status move (this is where abstractions may get a bit fuzzy - does a Pokemon need a certain degree of "psychicness" to use a psychic-type move? I would say that it depends on the move and that this question has huge implications regarding aptitude for learning moves via TM). On the other hand, I think it would make sense in this instance to view Poliwag's hypnosis as a defense mechanism that arose with the swirl pattern on its stomach, similar to how certain real-world butterflies have wing patterns which look like the faces of predators so as to scare off their own predators. From this interpretation, Poliwag's hypnosis would then not be a channeling of psychic power or anything, but rather a series of movements to hypnotize a foe which is looking at Poliwag's swirl, similar to how the butterfly might spread its wings and face toward its predator when confronted.
In terms of the psychic-ness of hypnosis(and status moves in general) I would say that, even if the effect is limited to niche interactions like protean, there is still something to be said for the fact that that type was chosen, since it could have been normal. So I do think hypnosis may make it more likely for Poliwag to develop psychic abilities than the average Pokémon. Though generally I do like applying real life mechanisms to explain things, as you did, there's a fuzzy area around any of the fantastical elements such as Pokémon breathing fire or using psychic moves. It's a very good point though and is something I'll definitely be considering further in the future. You are absolutely correct though, that hypnosis wouldn't give Poliwag any specific edge against Mankey, not only because the type doesn't really come into play, but also because Mankey's get vital spirit, which I completely forgot about. So it's highly unlikely that hypnosis was a defense developed specifically for Mankey. However, this actually better supports my hypothesis that Mankeys hunt poliwag, just from the other direction; Mankeys have a distinct edge in being able to ignore one of Poliwag's main defense mechanisms.
@@RCwyatt917 Oh interesting, I hadn't considered Mankey's abilities, that's a good point. Looking into it some more with hypnosis, I think you are right that there's something to be said for Poliwag being a bit psychic. 2 out of Poliwag's 7 learned moves in gen 1 are psychic-type (the other being amnesia), and although neither of them are shining examples of psychic power, a trend definitely seems to emerge when we look at the TMs Poliwag is capable of using: it can use psychic, psywave, and rest. Not all of these moves remained usable by Poliwag in later generations but it seems pretty clear to me that Poliwag has the ability to use Psychic powers at least. The question would then be whether a selection pressure (such as being hunted by Mankey) will drive Poliwag to make use of these abilities to a greater extent. This makes me wonder however, with Mankey having multiple abilities, whether vital spirit is itself an adaptation on Mankey's part in response to Poliwag's hypnosis. After all, if Poliwag is capable of using psychic powers (in particular, psychic-type attack moves), but doesn't currently make use of them, this might mean that Poliwag is doing just fine without them. If vital spirit is a recent adaptation however, then this may push Poliwag into a corner where it becomes adaptive to learn psychic-type moves. It would be interesting to see from a population dynamics perspective, where I might expect the proportion of Mankey with vital spirit to increase, the Poliwag population to then decline, and finally for Poliwag's learnset to then begin to include a low level psychic-type move such as confusion, and finally for both populations to stabilize. Sadly Pokemon seems to keep all available abilities at equal likelihood, so I don't think there would be any way to demonstrate this from the games themselves, but it could be a cool thing to simulate for a programming project.
I was thinking this as well, but I think part of the reason not to jump straight into Unova is that gen five's additional mechanics may complicate the process quite a bit. Even if we're just looking at Black and White, ignoring the sequels (just like here with ignoring GSC), that still means that some routes can have four different sets of Pokemon per game. Having four seasons in-game also leaves less up to the imagination, which can be both a curse and a blessing. It also means we can't use the nice and easy seasonal interpretation for version-exclusive Pokemon, but that's a bridge that I think would've had to be crossed regardless.
@@meringue9208 I mean straight up the version exclusives in Unova are explained by different timelines where one of them places like White forest and old Opelucid city remain while in black those evolved.
Electricity helps Pikachu carve out a niche against Weedle, too. Whereas biting a stinging insect that can poison you puts you in harms way, a jolt of electricity can hit from outside that danger zone! Rattata moved out and Pikachu in for the same reason; Weedle!
This is genuinely amazing and a lot of fun to learn about all these details about a game that may not be intentional, but are interesting to learn about nonetheless
11:30 you forgot that you can encouter Wild Pigdeotto in Viridian Forest, only in Yellow of course, I guess at lv 9... but it is a rare encounter but you can find it.
I think the way you rationalize version exclusivity is interesting, but personally i think if you’re gonna do an ecological analysis, you should assume that the species present in a given area are all species present in all versions of that pair/trio of games. The version exclusivity mechanic doesn’t have any bearing on what Pokémon are meant to actually live on the road in the universe of the Pokémon region in question.
I dont like the rby and frlg wild encounter system... they dont have many variety to get exp for the bad curve difficulty of the E4... even the Vs Seeker does not help since: - it does not work in Victory Road trainers.. WHY?????? - the best place in Kanto especially is the Ciclying Road with the Biker gang which have Muks and Weezings to grind... but they are poison types which sucks for many types to grind... I guess the deves thought you would lv Kadabra... but that was a really bad decision imo.... - the 7islands have some spots for grinding but its far from a pokemon center which sucks.. you'll have to was time for grinding other pokemon types in this way.... I would like that the Seafom Island would help grind your Charizard due to ice-type pokemon but no... Dewgong is the only ice pok and Articuno is only one time encounter... and to get worst, Dew have Thick Fat that halves fire moves.... and grass types are not good for grinding since ther is not a good place for grinding them... OF YOU COULD GRIND THE SAFARI ZONE WOULD BE MUCH BETTER DUE TO THE MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF ENCOUNTERS THERE BUT NO....
Honestly, I think predation in the Pokemon world wouldn’t usually be Pokemon on Pokemon, with some exceptions. They’re depicted as having human-level intelligence and interspecies communication fairly often- it would probably be like cannibalism to them in some aspects. Preying on unseen normal animals, on the other hand, would be much more “acceptable”, just as WE eat normal animals. Pokedex entries do suggest predation for things like Caterpie, but they were written by a 10 year old, so they might also have seen a Pidgey eating a normal worm and simply thought it was a Caterpie.
Grass being a bad type makes sense since there are a lot of poison types in gen 1
I like to think it's a recent adaptation. with poison being super-effective against grass, i think it's likely that many of the grass-types evolved a poison typing in competition with each other as they competed for space, which would help explain why the tangela population have been pushed back to a spot with no other grass types. it could also be a defensive evolution to resist predation from bug-types, which would also explain why tangela aren't viable in a place like viridian forest.
this series has immediately become my absolute favorite thing. the scientific development of headcanon. its perfect
This is such an absurd concept to take so seriously and attempting to be objective and speculative I love it.
(I think in yellow the pidgey numbers in early game are probably an anime reference where Ash and Pikachu got overwhelmed?? Same with 1% find in yellow for its evolved form lol)
This is an incredibly fun and unique concept while also being a no brainer. I love it.
The dex descriptions says that poliwhirl can live on land, but it needs to sweat to keep its body slimy, so they prefer to stay in water. It also says that it stays in water to avoid predation and have more prey. Polywrath's dex says that its a incredible swimmer but prefers to live on dry land. So the idea that mankeys go after them makes sense. Awesome video!
This is awesome. I’m looking forward to seeing more of it.
This series is so cool, I wish I checked it out earlier.
There's some evidence to support the idea that Tangela are battling extinction, not just in Kanto but across the Pokemon world. Several rare Kanto pokemon such as Chansey, Scyther, Lickitung and Rhyhorn are actually rather common in Hisui or Sinnoh. To me this indicates that Kanto is not their native land and that they can't properly reproduce and compete because they are specialized for Sinnoh/Hisui's climate. The same seems to be true for Tangela since they have pretty decent numbers in Hisui. However, flash forward 150-200 years later and they can only make due within the confines of a Safari Zone in Sinnoh. It isn't much better in other regions. Tangela is doomed to show up on one, maybe two routes. Tangela's evolution, Tangrowth, can only be achieved with the help of Ancient Power. It doesn't exist naturally anymore, likely because it takes up too many resources. Tangela are almost always found near large bodies of war or just incredibly humid locations, so they likely need a lot of moisture to function and Tangrowth would be even worse off because of its size. Iirc irl species like amphibians suck at handling sudden changes in climate because of their reliance on moisture, so it's probably a similar deal for Tangela. So, yeah. Tangela just aren't built for the modern climate of the Pokemon world and if humans ever get bored of taking care of them, they'll definitely go extinct.
I always love finding a channel that investigates incidental worldbuilding from a scientific perspective. I'll look forward to more!
I know the Nidos have 2 pokedex entries because of early installment weirdness but i like to think those two were a result of some sort of convergent evolution.
That would be a fun idea, but I think the (fairly) unique breeding rules of nidoran females being able to make both male and female nidoran shows that they're one species. For every other Pokémon, they can only reproduce their own species, (other than ditto of course) and nidoran (and illumise) being the exception would be hard to explain.
That being said, Pokémon breeding in general is hard to explain, and is a problem I dread talking about eventually.
Fantastic idea and fascinating video as always. I really like the use of learnsets to derive the behavior and combat-specific needs of Pokemon in each particular environment, and I think the idea could even be expanded to explain more of the ecology, taking some cues from both ethology and behaviorism, if we allow ourselves to be a bit liberal in the interpretation of what learnsets represent as an abstraction and especially in what "moves" actually are. It actually makes me want to try my hand at applying these ideas to another Pokemon game, but no promises.
Re: Poliwag's hypnosis move - here's where I'd be a bit cautious about inferring future changes to typing from current environmental pressures: The association being made here is based on type advantage, with Poliwag's psychic-type move against the fighting-type Mankey, but Poliwag is not currently making use of this type advantage, with hypnosis being a status move (this is where abstractions may get a bit fuzzy - does a Pokemon need a certain degree of "psychicness" to use a psychic-type move? I would say that it depends on the move and that this question has huge implications regarding aptitude for learning moves via TM). On the other hand, I think it would make sense in this instance to view Poliwag's hypnosis as a defense mechanism that arose with the swirl pattern on its stomach, similar to how certain real-world butterflies have wing patterns which look like the faces of predators so as to scare off their own predators. From this interpretation, Poliwag's hypnosis would then not be a channeling of psychic power or anything, but rather a series of movements to hypnotize a foe which is looking at Poliwag's swirl, similar to how the butterfly might spread its wings and face toward its predator when confronted.
In terms of the psychic-ness of hypnosis(and status moves in general) I would say that, even if the effect is limited to niche interactions like protean, there is still something to be said for the fact that that type was chosen, since it could have been normal. So I do think hypnosis may make it more likely for Poliwag to develop psychic abilities than the average Pokémon. Though generally I do like applying real life mechanisms to explain things, as you did, there's a fuzzy area around any of the fantastical elements such as Pokémon breathing fire or using psychic moves. It's a very good point though and is something I'll definitely be considering further in the future.
You are absolutely correct though, that hypnosis wouldn't give Poliwag any specific edge against Mankey, not only because the type doesn't really come into play, but also because Mankey's get vital spirit, which I completely forgot about. So it's highly unlikely that hypnosis was a defense developed specifically for Mankey. However, this actually better supports my hypothesis that Mankeys hunt poliwag, just from the other direction; Mankeys have a distinct edge in being able to ignore one of Poliwag's main defense mechanisms.
@@RCwyatt917 Oh interesting, I hadn't considered Mankey's abilities, that's a good point.
Looking into it some more with hypnosis, I think you are right that there's something to be said for Poliwag being a bit psychic. 2 out of Poliwag's 7 learned moves in gen 1 are psychic-type (the other being amnesia), and although neither of them are shining examples of psychic power, a trend definitely seems to emerge when we look at the TMs Poliwag is capable of using: it can use psychic, psywave, and rest. Not all of these moves remained usable by Poliwag in later generations but it seems pretty clear to me that Poliwag has the ability to use Psychic powers at least. The question would then be whether a selection pressure (such as being hunted by Mankey) will drive Poliwag to make use of these abilities to a greater extent. This makes me wonder however, with Mankey having multiple abilities, whether vital spirit is itself an adaptation on Mankey's part in response to Poliwag's hypnosis.
After all, if Poliwag is capable of using psychic powers (in particular, psychic-type attack moves), but doesn't currently make use of them, this might mean that Poliwag is doing just fine without them. If vital spirit is a recent adaptation however, then this may push Poliwag into a corner where it becomes adaptive to learn psychic-type moves.
It would be interesting to see from a population dynamics perspective, where I might expect the proportion of Mankey with vital spirit to increase, the Poliwag population to then decline, and finally for Poliwag's learnset to then begin to include a low level psychic-type move such as confusion, and finally for both populations to stabilize. Sadly Pokemon seems to keep all available abilities at equal likelihood, so I don't think there would be any way to demonstrate this from the games themselves, but it could be a cool thing to simulate for a programming project.
I feel like unova would be much better for this with seasons and the sequels ngl
I was thinking this as well, but I think part of the reason not to jump straight into Unova is that gen five's additional mechanics may complicate the process quite a bit. Even if we're just looking at Black and White, ignoring the sequels (just like here with ignoring GSC), that still means that some routes can have four different sets of Pokemon per game. Having four seasons in-game also leaves less up to the imagination, which can be both a curse and a blessing. It also means we can't use the nice and easy seasonal interpretation for version-exclusive Pokemon, but that's a bridge that I think would've had to be crossed regardless.
@@meringue9208 I mean straight up the version exclusives in Unova are explained by different timelines where one of them places like White forest and old Opelucid city remain while in black those evolved.
One of the best videos I’ve watched on Pokémon ecology honestly. Keep it up!
I hope you do more analysis like this, especially for other generations.
I really love your ''way too in depth'' analysis of video games. Keep it up!
Electricity helps Pikachu carve out a niche against Weedle, too.
Whereas biting a stinging insect that can poison you puts you in harms way, a jolt of electricity can hit from outside that danger zone!
Rattata moved out and Pikachu in for the same reason; Weedle!
I just love when people try to see Pokémon under a more scientific light. Sure it makes little sense, but it's pretty fun. Great video
i just came across this randomly and im commenting while still watching. i love this. cmon youtube algorithm do your thing
This is genuinely amazing and a lot of fun to learn about all these details about a game that may not be intentional, but are interesting to learn about nonetheless
Kinda long term but I can't wait for you to cover Hoenn, love this content!
THIS! I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS FOREVER! THANK YOU!!!!
This is so good! Shocked this doesn’t have more views
Your videos are always extremely insightful, can't wait for your future videos and eventual growth, keep it up man
20 seconds of biology class: I sleep
1 hour of pokemon ecology: real shit
really great video! love the thought you've put into this
Okay. This is a gem of a youtube recommendation.
dude, these videos are so so good. i hope you keep it up!
great video criminally under rated
This is exactly the kind of content I want to watch
i don't get it but it's awesome
So true.
@@Skeleton4499 can't wait for the 5 hour geological essay about the rest of kanto
Good shit. I’m a fan now. You’re up next.
Just started watching. I love this video already
Underrated for sure!
11:30 you forgot that you can encouter Wild Pigdeotto in Viridian Forest, only in Yellow of course, I guess at lv 9... but it is a rare encounter but you can find it.
This is just such a fun video series concept.
I think the way you rationalize version exclusivity is interesting, but personally i think if you’re gonna do an ecological analysis, you should assume that the species present in a given area are all species present in all versions of that pair/trio of games. The version exclusivity mechanic doesn’t have any bearing on what Pokémon are meant to actually live on the road in the universe of the Pokémon region in question.
Incredibly awesome!
Well, the seasonal hypothesis doesnt work in later games where there is allready a change of seasons in game
Awesome content
Dude this was awesome!
I'm a big fan!!
This is just a lot of fun. I'm in.
Protect the Tangela
I like this.
as a gennwunner i really enjoyed this lol
I think beedrill would most likely feed on honey
epic video
I see what you did there with the nicknames…!
superb content, informative fun headcanon.
please mute the game audio for future videos.
thank you! will be watching further
I dont like the rby and frlg wild encounter system... they dont have many variety to get exp for the bad curve difficulty of the E4... even the Vs Seeker does not help since:
- it does not work in Victory Road trainers.. WHY??????
- the best place in Kanto especially is the Ciclying Road with the Biker gang which have Muks and Weezings to grind... but they are poison types which sucks for many types to grind... I guess the deves thought you would lv Kadabra... but that was a really bad decision imo....
- the 7islands have some spots for grinding but its far from a pokemon center which sucks.. you'll have to was time for grinding other pokemon types in this way....
I would like that the Seafom Island would help grind your Charizard due to ice-type pokemon but no... Dewgong is the only ice pok and Articuno is only one time encounter... and to get worst, Dew have Thick Fat that halves fire moves.... and grass types are not good for grinding since ther is not a good place for grinding them...
OF YOU COULD GRIND THE SAFARI ZONE WOULD BE MUCH BETTER DUE TO THE MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF ENCOUNTERS THERE BUT NO....
Search and you will find.
absolutely love the content but the background music is a mess. just mute the gameplay :)
Honestly, I think predation in the Pokemon world wouldn’t usually be Pokemon on Pokemon, with some exceptions. They’re depicted as having human-level intelligence and interspecies communication fairly often- it would probably be like cannibalism to them in some aspects. Preying on unseen normal animals, on the other hand, would be much more “acceptable”, just as WE eat normal animals.
Pokedex entries do suggest predation for things like Caterpie, but they were written by a 10 year old, so they might also have seen a Pidgey eating a normal worm and simply thought it was a Caterpie.