Making Wing Chun More Effective - Mark Phillips (Fight Science) Case Study
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2023
- Amazing footage from 1989 when Dr. Mark Phillips competed in a Wing Chun open style tournament. Let's see how Mark makes Wing Chun work and what Wing Chun people can learn from him. Mark, please upload more of your old tournament footage. It is so worth studying and analyzing! Everyone, keep practicing and keep learning!
Original video that we analyzed here: • Wing Chun vs Anyone ● ...
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Wing Chun people, please send me more stuff like this please!
Like l said before: not all martial arts are bad, it depends on the martial artist. Mark definitely had acknowledged though the years and that call experience. You see some Kung Fu artist switch to boxing but still have some kung fu hands, some Tae Kwon Do artist switch to kickboxing, and the list goes on and on. That call knowledge and going to what experience the martial artist learned through the years. This video proves it. I like this one a lot. 👍
Nice find, and an interesting format. I like Dr. Phillips' channel. Another takeaway: when you let people do anything they want, it winds up looking kinda like MMA 😄
One of my best training partners was skilled in both Wing Chun and Muay Thai, and was one of my go-to guys when it came to clinch fighting. Within the seemingly narrow focus on the art, there are some things it can train its practitioners to do REALLY well.
i attended his classes for about 2 years a decade ago - Mark Phillips is insanely talented. I moved to a different country and now doing MMA and Muay Thai but to this day, I see Mark as one of the best fighters I have ever met especially for self-defence. He is not all talk, guy can do some serious damage
Mark Phillips is the evolution and adaptation of Wing Chun to reality fighting.
I love his analysis of street smarts.
My speculation with the head movement is somewhat similar to karate's thinking, which is that there is a certain posture and alignment that is "ideal" and head movement would break that. Granted, karate can sort of get away with it because of its distance management strategies, but in that regard it's the polar opposite of wing chun that always wants to have forward pressure. I think this may be why Kyokushin is so exposed in non-kyokushin rules, they have retained the lack of karate head movement but don't use the distance management tactic anymore, so like wing chun, they're putting themselves in a worst-case scenario ones the rules open up.
Problem is, they didnt think of the reaction time of doing a technique. The head is the bait. But you cant do the move if the hand is fast or when they do a fake and then punch. Being flexible with those head movements really help.
@@algladyou and just being unpredictable with head movement in general, which doesn't rely on reaction time. Otherwise, fight super close or super far away lol. You even have to use head movement in jiujitsu to cope with GNP
@@elenchus yup. Sparring really helps too to hone your reflexes and judgment. It's like playing with another person on table tennis vs by yourself. Hehehe. Pther than that, it's game of rock pqper scissors. Either you play at the same time, or wait for each other's play and react. Hopefully, you react quickly to counter.
Omg it's Mark Phillips!!! I'm in love with him!
Do more stuff on him!
He's a really knowledgeable guy 😉
He definitely is!
The old Wing Chun also had dodging, maybe not Boxing level dodging (i actually am not sure how good their head movement was) but they sure had it
I dabbled in wing chun in my younger years. Got decent use out of it. That said, i was wrestling pretty heavily at the time, and that helped alot. I think most of wing chun was light strikes to facilitate clinching and takedowns, which explains the stance a bit.
The Wing Chun trapping also helps a lot with my grappling too when doing BJJ. Its something you can even apply on the ground and it does take people off guard a little. Wing Chun is an anomaly. It's both the most overrated martial arts out there and also one of the most underrated. Which I think the community kind of only has it self to blame for that. Its built up so much to its students that they're going to be near on super humans, which in turn feeds a level of arrogance and ego beyond any other art I've encountered other than maybe Krav. Few test it because of that, few bother to spar with it or put it out into the competitive field. Then when it does go into the competitive field, the fighters are so under prepared that they become a laughing stock.
Which is a true shame because there's a lot there that's really really good if they'd just maybe take a step back, spar with it, test it and maybe even tweak a few things. Rather than arguing with each other over who has "The Real" Chun. Wing Chun, with full contact sparring. You'd get a good art out of it. I've watched a lot of Marks videos and he's gifted with a level head and I think he shares the same sentiment.
Yes. This. I never learned any "real" Wing Chun but dipped my toes in about any other martial art/combat sport out there and there is something about the core principles of WC that really resonates with me. I am trying to connect grappling and striking fluently with each other and the results are something very reminiscent of what people call Wing Chun. A lot of that is probably also due to my swordfighting background. A case of convergent evolution maybe?
Anyways I plan to get competing as soon as I get an opportunity to really test my hypothesis. Because I too believe that there might still be some merit to what some people consider "bullshido" - there has to be something more going on.
"It's both the most overrated martial arts out there and also one of the most underrated. Which I think the community kind of only has it self to blame for that."
Unfortunately, that's the modern state of WCKF summed up. There's some good stuff in there, but the way it's practiced by a lot of people doesn't reflect the pressures one will face when things go live.
Trapping was literally made to be used along with grappling or against grappling
@@ThePurussaurus The only way to test something is to... Well test it. So good on you for competing with it. I'm probably one of the few MMA fighters outthere that doesn't completely shit on wing chun. Though I just acknowledge its problems. I have competed myself and used a lot of Kung Fu and Traditional Techniques to varying degrees of success.
@Sovvolf the problem with most people i think is that they dont have a good reflexes and not athletic. They just happened to be taught how to dance, but doesnt have the intinct to be creative with it. Any basketball player can be taught how to dribble, crossover, step back and so on. But to apply those things on actual game is another and also when to apply. Or like table tennis. They can be taught how to smash, but they shouldnt be doing so if the opponent spun it and made it very low.
Ive watched mark for a long tiem. Hes a great fighter. He might be more jujitsu now but he still posts a lot of wing chun self defense videos
My idea for the head movement thing comes from talking to experts and evaluating the historical practices etc. that I've come across, wing chun is supposed to be a small enviroment martial art, or atleast all the theory starts making sense when you're sparring in a really closed space where you can't shoot for takedowns or kick high, the best options end up being is smother the person with strikes, clinching and clearing the path to finish the person as fast as possible...but idk in the end, who knows🤷♂️
makes sense if your fights are taking place in narrow Hong Kong alleys or fighting in crowded melees, honestly. Can't go to the ground or throw a bunch of wide, sweeping techniques when you're fighting in a filthy backstreet right next to half a dozen of your mates, better to go straight forward at someone and try to lock them down quick
@@Autonamatonamaton exactly, there's a context to everything
Mark's voice is so nice.
As a Wing Chun practicioner who has branched off to other styles, my observation is that WC's (over?)emphasis on trapping may be due to some different conventions of fight which applied to traditional Lei Tai fighting, but not to modern Sport Fighting, specifically that in traditional Kung Fu matches, the opponents would 'cross hands' at the beginning of the match. 'Pak da' and other trap/block-then-punch movements were prioritized (also in styles like Xingyi) because that's literally the opening move when you start the fight (this also explains some of the WC stance and footwork - which is intended for starting at close range). Within the modern context, obviously, some modifications need to be made.
This is what I don’t understand about wing Chuns obsession with the centerline yet standing so square. They stand square which opens their centerline up for attack, so they gotta keep their hands in the middle, exposing themselves to hooks, yet they don’t use any hooks themselves. Fighters that stand square prefer round attacks like Tysons hooks or Bas Ruttens round kicks. Straight hitters tend to stand bladed. Wing Chun uses a theory that contradicts itself.
Good point. I hope a wing chun person writes an essay below your comment about this 😅😂😂
Excellent video. This really reinforces the point i try to make on how wing chun (and much more importantly for tkd) makes for a very valuable enhancement to other styles when combat fighting.
Dr. Phillips insights on fight psychology is really useful. i
in my humble opinion Qi La La is the best representative of wing chun in the world ,also is Xu Xiaodong still kicking arse and taking names or did he retire?
I believe it got lost due to lack of fights. When the most people do is demos you don’t see the need to move your head. I never knew it was “outlawed” until I came online 😂 we did it when I was training and we use it in my school
Clinching is a basic technique in WC, in fact the first movement in chim kiu with both arms thrusting forward to trap head into MT clinch (one application of it). Most WC knee strike is delivered from clinching similar to MT or Krav. We have in fact clinching flow drill. I did also JKD from Inosanto lineage which use head movement of slipping and weaving in basic punch defence. Here Bruce Lee who likes head movement introduced it in to JKD to make WC more robust.
This was an awesome analysis
Glad you enjoyed!
Mark should spar with Jeff Chan :)
Hi Jerry,
Great find from the olden times. A few years ago I posted about the lack of Wing Chun head movement in one of your bad wing chun video breakdowns, and this is a great case study of Sifu Mark Phillips evolving throughout the years by way of experience and learning how to handle different arts.
This is I think my personal answer to the problem, and hopefully it is more refined than what I put a few years ago. At its very core, there is a gross fundamental misunderstanding of Wing Chun by both practitioners and non-practitioners what Wing Chun really is, and this misunderstanding leads to erroneous training method and orthodoxy that really hurts Wing Chun as a concept based art -- practitioners find the art to be ineffective, and non-practitioners fairly can say that Wing Chun is ineffective for that reason.
I'm now going to lay down a few foundational points so people can have an idea where my analysis comes from. Over the years, I have come to accept that Wing Chun is a system of concepts and fighting theories that are reasonably sound -- the theory of proper body structure, economy of motion, efficiency, center line, straight line, constant pressure, etc. make logical sense on paper. The universe of these theories is what I call the CONCEPT of Wing Chun to distinguish them from an expression of these theories. I'm using all caps to define these terms because it is important to explain the differences in writing -- much easier if I can explain this in real time verbally.
Now, once you have the universe of the theories, you put the abstract concepts into concrete practice by way of techniques, drills, forms, etc. However, these supposedly concrete forms and techniques are just one valid INTERPRETATION of the CONCEPT of Wing Chun. In other words, to put it bluntly, once you understand the CONCEPT of Wing Chun, anything that comes out of your hand (in the words of Leung Bik (Ip Chun) in the movie Ip Man: The Legend is Born) is Wing Chun. Everything else, i.e. tan saus, pak saus, etc., these are simply learning tools to understand the CONCEPT of Wing Chun, and these techniques are not true Wing Chun. All of these named Wing Chun techniques are merely static snapshots of how the hand/body exert and/or respond to incoming/outgoing physical forces along the center line of the fighters. All of these techniques strongly depend on the angle and direction of forces incoming to one's body relative to the central line, and if shit changes along the way, then the techniques will change as well.
So, when you have practitioners and sifus who confuse the CONCEPT versus the INTERPRETATION, and think that the INTERPRETATIONs are everything and anything Wing Chun and Wing Chun is literally limited to the four corners of what the sifus or what Ip Man showed to this world, then this is why we start seeing the ineffective Wing Chun. There is nothing in Wing Chun CONCEPT that prohibits a person from moving his or her head out of the way as long as he/she applies the rest of the CONCEPT appropriately. However, certain INTERPRETATIONs and dogmatic following of certain teaching methods can and do teach keeping your head/chin up as high as possible (even in real fighting situations), but that is it -- it is an interpretation of Wing Chun concept and your mileage may vary on that one. The (often senseless) adherence to the various interpretations of Wing Chun (i.e. lineages, techniques, etc) by certain wing chun practitioners, and conversely the putdowns by non-wing chun practitioners saying that wing chun sucks really a manifest of this misunderstanding between the concept and the interpretation of Wing Chun -- these interpretations are tools to help one learn the concept, but once you understand the concept, you still need to learn how to fight for real.
Based on this understanding, I totally appreciate that true Wing Chun experts do learn and grow as they become more experienced over the years -- they first learn the interpretations of Wing Chun from their sifus and/or others, and as they grow in maturity as a person and as a martial artist, their understanding of the concepts grow, and their interpretation changes over time to see what is effective and what is not effective within the framework of the CONCEPT. The video of Ip Man doing the dummy form right before he died was an expression of Ip Man's best interpretation of Wing Chun concepts at the end of his life -- it is not Wing Chun per se. This is why all the lineages can co-exist and have their own strengths and/or weaknesses -- all of them are interpretations of Wing Chun concepts that should be alive and improving based on the context of the fight.
This video of Mark Phillips is a perfect example of how one's interpretation of Wing Chun concept changes and matures over time -- Sifu Phillips continuously experiments and challenges his understanding of the Wing Chun concepts he learned throughout the years, and his interpretation evolves as a result. I am sure the same can be said with Qi La La -- as the years go by, his interpretation of Wing Chun evolves over the years and become better. Good Wing Chun practitioners swear by the concept of Wing Chun -- almost none of them swear by the specific techniques or interpretations of Wing Chun -- just my observation.
Cheers!
Great comment. Too many focus on trying to “look” like wing chun when they fight/spar. The forms and drills are just combat mechanics and once absorbed you use what you’ve learned as you see fit. My wing chun in application looks more like mma and I’m not upset about that. Drills are a means to an end and way too many Wc guys try to fight using the PHYSICAL drills rather than the ATTRIBUTES gained from them. Good form looks like no form at all…
Yes sir. mark I like the way he fights I'm also wanna see more fotage please share
I think you are absolute right, head movement is not common, because it is a structure based art. You lose structure. But in real situations I always believed: do not be the slave of structure. The punch will come from your whole body and you can more easily disrupt the structure of the opponent. But. A real figt is to dynamic you get in and out, distances change. that is why Mark did such a great job because he knows this because of his sparring. He evn uses the shoulder rol.
Mark Phillips is great guy he talk about reality not fantasy
Mark Phillips? RDCworld1?
I love stuff very aesthetic and effective martial arts feels more real
In WC the lack of head movement is due to the arts dependency on structure and the idea the structure when moved by the opponents force, should move the head accordingly. WC works to develop responsive structures with via angles and levers created by the body's posture. The idea being that if an opponent punches, the contact with the arms will provide a force that moves the WC structure so that the head is moved out of the way and the WC fist hits the opponent. If the opponent swings wide, the WC person is supposed to strike forward immediately. In real fights WC people fail to react with the precision necessary, a punch or a series of punches can be faster than reflex response and much faster than skeletal structural responses according to the force of the punch and inevitably lost upon any following quick punches.
I do like WC (I personally like WT lineage), but it is not the technical martial art it wishes to be. I think most fighters will benefit more from WC after they learn how to really fight using more stress tested martial arts like boxing, Judo, wrestling and the like.
Lmao I keep forgetting Mark from Fight Science and RDCWORLD1 have the same last name. Makes me wonder if RDC Mark lowkey knows wing chun
Yeah. I just discovered that channel the other day too!
3:28 (拍手衝拳) is actually what Bruce Lee did in his fight Enter the Dragon.
Hands on each others' is called 搭手
I was still in high school when the fight happened lol. I think the head movement and the clinch were gone because they are no pressure testing
Bad pak da is everywhere. People do it wrong because they have an incorrect conception of it. I often hear them refer to it as "parrying." The idea of parrying causes extra wasted lateral and vertical motion because people who aren't swordsmen think of parrying as a lateral or vertical smack. A swordsman would argue a good parry is just like a good pak. They know the best parry is one where you claim the line and hardly move at all while the opponent glances and drifts ever so slightly off center, overcommiting to nothing because they don't know they're off until it's too late.
neat!
I have no idea why head movement is 'prohibited' in Wing Chun, even I have practised WC for 3 years. Almost whenever I do head movement in the lesson, the Sifu will say if you move your body (side or lean back), and feet and do the wc techniques right, you don't need to do head movement or step back. It seems the older generation of wc believes that once you keep going forward, you don't need to do evasive movement. Well, disagree.
Wow! So interesting!
In randy williams crca version it is not
Wing Chun was already effective. I don't understand why people believe TMA are not effective because mma and all this other stuff exists. Where do you think they got it from?
Wow, I had no idea wing chun uses clinching.
It reminds me of children fighting.
You look in a good mood. So now go and train!😂
If the average Joe learning a martial art can't use it effectively in combat, that says a lot about that martial art.
Thats a very good point!
toe martial are triam to fight bare hand not with gloves.
bro to me it's a joke.
Pac Sau not Pac Da.
I mean, some people do call it pak da
Two different techniques
Pak sau is the trapping hand (literal translation is slap hand) the Da just means hit. So in short - Pak Da. So both correct 👍
@@mrmushin1 i mean, with Pak Sao, you aren't necessarilly punching your opponent, but most people do punch when demonstrating a "Pak Sao" so they basically end up teaching Pak Da
Maybe some legacy martial arts just work versus an opponent with no fighting skills; Bob the mailman, Msr. Krepowsky the crazy Kat lady, jonhy the fat bully. As soon as you have a wing Chung expert fighting VS a muai Thai expert, the former crumbles. You get that Kung fu master with an mma guy (or even nobodies as we all love to watch here) and the ridiculous Kung fu stand goes away for a more brawler one. This search you do for the betterment of these legacy martial arts is just finding movements that have been proven to work in other more legit arts. Ridiculous wing Chung slapping will never work on a professional fight (here angry wing Chungers procede to mention a rare specific case in which it somehow worked)
Wing Chun has recently beat mma. On streetbeefs and another bout in Germany. Your statements are from the past.
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe there we go with the exceptions... Street beefs lol
There's another good one" TKD/Wrestling/BJJ viewer vs.Qi la la wing Chun kungfu". In this one the viewer spars QiLa la. And then he tells of his experience in the comment section. If you really believe what you do about wing Chun,write to him in the comment section,tell him you think wing Chun sucks.I would love to read his response. The " wing Chun sucks" crowd is strangely absent in the comment section of that video. That's because they saw the sparring match.
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe I never said it sucks. I said a wing Chun master will almost never win against a proven martial art. Don't talk about exceptions because everything has them. In a formal study or even in practice, the best pound for pound fighters be it mma, muai Thai, are not wing Chun masters. And don't give me the "oh this fighter practices wing chun and actually used it in one fight" Kung fu and wing chun only work against civilians. Because it's been proven. Can they evolve? Yeah, but you start doing movements from other martial arts.
@@iluvj00 Very good. Now to prove your serious about what your saying here, address the the Bjj/ wrestler who recently sparred Qi la la with what you just wrote He writes about his experience in the comment section.Strange absence of self proclaimed " bullshido experts" there. I wonder why.🤔🤔🤔
Wing Chun doesn't make sense, you wanna do wing Chun just throw jabs and crosses no hooks till the cows come home.
The best thing to make it effective, is not to use it in the first place. 😂
Its not 2005 anymore, mate. This channel shows examples of people using it succesfully.
If you want to see a wing chun fighter competing, you should look up a man named Sifu Anthony Arnett. He has over 4k trophies, not all first place of course, but it's a testament to his tremendous efforts.
I cannot understand why you don't present something different. You only put garbage here to sea.
Something of value a real fighter who knows how to handle Marshal art. These people, there are pretenders they don't know nothing