Good video! Just one thing. Thinness of the basket is actually good because it’s not a heat sink. The bigger the mass, the more heat it will take away. The basket being thin and making little contact w the portafilter is what allows you to get away without preheating.
Not sure why you're pressing halfway down the levers. Pressing on the ends makes it quite easy to have enough leverage to be able to look at the guage.
I agreed with most parts except for "preheating is a must". I found with darker roasts preheating leads to too much campfire and bitter notes (over extraction), while no preheating at all gives delicious results. Even some medium roasts are ok without preheating, with a bit more acidity, bit still quite pleasant. So I would say preheating is optional depending on the roast and personal taste. Never experienced puck lift, probably because I tap very strong. Agreed with grinding coarser, the results are fuller and more complex this way. Normally, I preinfuse for 10 sec at low pressure, then go quickly to 8 bars and stay for 20 sec and then go down to 6 bars for the remaining 10 sec. Agreed with unique taste profile of espresso, more toward classical espresso with full body, and less toward clarity and acidity. I do like the look of the Robot, and I think there is one plastic part - which is the tube for the pressure gauge (hidden underneath metal cover). Overall, good review but practically all negatives are either attributed to technique or personal taste. I think it’s totally worth the price considering all positives, such as delicious espresso, ability to control preinfusion, pressure, and even temperature, almost zero maintenances, ability to make espresso in less than 5 min any time of the day (no warming up of equipment), virtually nonexistent footprint, great conversation item, longevity (my grandkids will probably be able to use it). The only real “drawback” of the Robot is the fact that temperature naturally drops during extraction, which is different from espresso machines that deliver more stable temperature though the entire extraction time. But whether it is a real drawback or, in fact, is a blessing is up for debate, because unique taste of Cafelat espresso might very well be the result of this phenomenon.
This little or no preheat is part of why I’m interested in adding the Robot to my list of coffee makers. I love my flair pro a lot but there’s a lot that goes into preheat
Same here! I started out preheating thinking it was necessary but tried not preheating one day and my shots improved significantly, much sweeter, less astringent and I haven't bothered preheating since. And I doubt I'll ever have to do it because I prefer doing pour over on lighter roasts. There are a lot of little hacks too to make the whole experience better 1) Pressing on the arms at high pressure was very uncomfortable for me too. They started selling the stainless steel mittens but if you're not willing to pay the extra, the 3D print of the mittens are also posted on reddit and I paid somebody to help me print them for 5 bucks and the whole process is much more comfortable now. Tho I'm still thinking of ordering the original mittens since they look better 2) There's also a 3D print of the self-leveling tamper, which makes tamping much easier 3) Facing the pressure gauge away from you allows you to look at it when you bend over while pressing 4) If you need to keep the arms up for a while, I secure a rubber band a few rounds around the corner of one arm such that when I lift the arms the friction holds them in place. All in all it's really quite a breeze to use. As a complete beginner I contemplated the Flair at first but I'm really glad I got this instead because doing it everyday is really quite straightforward. Less parts to fiddle with, no preheating, clean up is quick. And it takes up much less counter space. I think the $100 extra is quite worth paying for the ease and convenience of something you're gonna be using everyday for quite a long time.
@@amandac3658 Ha, I was just looking at the mittens online today and couldn’t figure out what they are for. Apparently they improve the comfort, didn’t know that. I thought they are purely decorative. Glad you came to the same conclusion regarding preheating, and I agree how easy it is to clean and operate.
@@classicrockonly I agree, I couldn’t stand the preheat ritual when I was watching online videos about manual levers. When I learned that Robot doesn’t require preheat, I jumped right on. Of course, if you like light roasts, then preheat is a must and might still be challenging. I prefer more classic espresso style and Robot works perfectly without preheat for it. I also find the wobbliness of the loading mechanism as a plus, there is no prefect alignment of anything that is required in the process. Just slap, turn, pull, you can do it even blindfolded without any precision and it will still work great.
@@VoidedTea Sounds great! I'll get a Robot one day. I think my next item is a Behmor roaster so I can get close to 1lb batches. Then when I finish justifying that purchase I'll go through the purchase deliberation process like Homer Simpson when he was thinking of going to clown school ;)
Appreciate the fact that you checked out other videos about this and gave us something original and enjoyable to watch! (The Little Giant coffee is remarkable as well)
Thanks Luke! I try to keep things as fresh as possible, being original isn’t easy that’s for sure. I appreciate you watching and glad that you’re enjoying my coffee!
You are spot on when you said that that Robot shots lean towards “density and texture” rather “clarity and acidity”. I think that this has to do more with the larger 58 bed and filter area/pore size (compared to the Flair Pro 2). I do not have a Robot, yet I use its portafilter with a custom piston on an arbor press.
Based on several reviews and especially yours I went ahead and bought the Robot. I upgraded from an Aeropress I had used for a decade and was concerned that this unit would be beyond my limited skills and ageing shoulders. But I was pleasantly surprised to get it fairly well dialed in within a few days. I like its simplicity and I agree with most of your comments though I find the handles easy to use if held at the ends where there is maximum mechanical advantage. I also bought the optional Robot hands to soften the grip. I must say the supplied tamper looked a bit grim so I got the $70 self leveling one. Thanks for your insightful review, it certainly shortened my learning curve.
A comment about the 'sloppiness' of the portafilter. It's a genius design but requires coming at it from the right angle, literally. Raise the arms of the machine all the way, and with the handle of the portafilter pointing *straight out* (at 6 o'clock viewed from above), raise the portafilter until the piston meets the water and you feel the resistance. With the handles raised all the way, the tabs of the portafilter are safely at/above where they need to be. Rotate the handle of the portafilter to the right. The bottom of the tabs on the portafilter rest on the inner lip of the machine itself, straightening it automatically, and the piston self-aligns in the basket, so there is no need to fiddle with it. Try it a few times with no coffee or water, and it will become obvious.
I have solved the mystery about Cafelat Robot finer grinding compared to the regular espresso machines - The grinding is the same just have to be used more comfortable tamper for harder pressure (leveling feature is preferable). I have printed handle for my Cafelat Robot tamper and now I can press enough hard... Now, the grinding setting of my grinder is same as the setting for La Marzocco machine in my local roastery (I have check that - thankyou for that opportunity of my local roastery).
I use a pair of bicycle gloves when using this machine (no more hand pain after pulling a finely-ground shot). Go finer on your grind. Concentrate on the pressure you're exerting to maintain a steady thin stream during extraction to avoid channeling. Don't use the splitter. Hold the bars out further than you were in the video (closer to c-shaped hands) for better leverage. 6 bars is enough pressure for a nice extraction IMHO. The best grinder to use with it is the Comandante C40 manual grinder. It's like they were made for each other. The glass cup fits perfectly in diameter with the Robot's portafilter. So you can just pop the portafilter on top of the collection cup and flip it over to get all of the ground coffee in there. Use something to stir in the portafilter and break up the clumps and you should get a nice solid puck that will not lift.
I got the Robot and Comandante duo! Just got the Robot yesterday... Around what grind setting do you use for the c40? I'm around 6 or 7 clicks (without red clix) and I'm pulling 1:2 shots (14g in, 28ml out). Not sure when to start the timer though; the moment I add the water to the basket or when I start dropping the arms down... Do you suggest going to 6 bars immediately after the 10 second preinfusion at 1 bar? And keeping it at 6 bar until the end? Would appreciate your help! Thanks in advance!
@@bowieknife Yes, 6 or 7 clicks seems to be the sweet spot for me too. I usually pre-infuse for about five to seven seconds the most. I go over 6 bars when pulling a shot but you don't have to push down to the point of death. If you push down too hard the puck will start to get channelled and you'll notice right away because the coffee will spray off to the side instead of in your cup. Instead of focussing on the bars, focus on the feel of the pressure you're exerting down and the resistance you're feeling back and watch the stream of coffee to make sure it's a nice steady thin stream the whole extraction. You can time the shot either before or after you pre-infuse, but it may be easier to measure your shot by weight instead. It's a pretty forgiving machine so try to have fun with it and go by taste and enjoy. Congrats on your Robot man! I love mine. My Rancilio Silvia has been collecting dust since I got the Robot, hehe.
I have a robot myself and I've read everything i can find about it online. I don't think puck lift is real and I've never seen mention of slamming the puck with 9bar to pre-infuse. I hope you keep the robot, and I think if you make espresso the way it's laid out in the manual you'll have better success with slower ramps and lower pressures.
I agree on your experience on puck lift being rare; just wetting grounds, together with that tiny bit of pressure from the screen and the time it takes to mount the portafilter before exerting pressure, I can imagine has already completely wet the puck
It really is tough to see so many people reviewing the Robot while making so many mistakes, while all they had to do, is thoroughly read the manual. I loved my Robot and made great shots with it, but it took some practice. I upgraded to the Lelit Bianca and sold my Robot. But I sure do miss the small footprint and ease of cleaning.
I just got one and my first shot was watery with it hardly registering 2 bars on the gauge. Adjusted the grind and still watery but just over 2 bars. Will try again in the morning. I’m at a 16g dose and following the instructions. I’m guessing it’s a combination of needing to go much finer than what I used for my old 9 bar pump machine and the beans not being as fresh as usual.
@@rjejames28 Eureka Mignon. It’s all working fine now thanks. Took me 3-4 days to dial in. My first bag was a bit stale and the other bag I had was filter roast. I’m usually around 17-18g per shot now.
Ive had this machine for a couple of weeks, always getting shots a little sour with 7 - 8 clicks on comandante grinder. Saw your video and tried the 9bar 10 sec and then 6bar until the end, used 8 clicks on comandante, 16g in 36g out in about 60 sec (including 10s with 9bar), best shot ive got so far, a little bitter but not too much, will try with 9 clicks tomorrow. Also i didnt pre heat anything. Thanks a lot for your video.
Glad to hear the video has helped out. It seems the Robot has a sweet spot and once you find it the repeatability is great. Thanks for watching and the kind words.
I had the same sour notes when I started. The problem is not very intuitive because we are told to grind finer and extract longer. For Robot, however, longer extraction is a killer because after 30 seconds the temperature drops to the point when you can only extact sour oils. So the key for a shot without any sourness is to make sure your extraction does not exceed 30 seconds. Grind a little bit coarser step by step until you can finish extraction in 30 seconds at 8 bars, including 10 seconds of preinfusion at 1-2 bars. It will be the sweetest espresso you’ve ever tried. If you use medium-dark roast, don’t preheat anything or you will end up with very bitter and burnt campfire taste. The lighter your roast, more preheating is needed, but not for medium dark. For any roast - keep your extraction under 30 second by choosing proper grind and you will have very tasty results.
Cafelat Robot + Kinu M47 = best bang for your buck, BY FAR, for the quality of espresso you are able to extract. I’ve been using this combo for over a year now and have never been more satisfied with a purchase. I was looking to upgrade recently, and I would’ve had to spend many thousands of pounds for the upgrade to be worth while.
i just bought that exact setup, arrived today but i have the same problem as the guy in the video had at the beginning, watery and no crema i would be very grateful if you could give me some tips and if you could tell me your grindsetting and how you pull the shots thank you
I've had a ROK for a very long time and upgraded it to the GC when that conversion kit came out. Upgrading seriously made the espresso better. Compared to automatic espresso machines, and even the other manual machines like the flair and robot, the shots tend to be more watery but the flavor to me is excellent. I also love that it has an actual portafilter, and the metal is very thick so once it's heated it doesn't lose temp very fast. Is it the best machine ever? No. Does it make good coffee for me to enjoy through my day? Yup. I get clear flavors from the coffee and shots tend to be very sweet, and I've never really had bitterness even when the shot goes really long. I've had 50 second shots come out pretty much fine...we'll, we'll say drinkable to the point that I'm not going to waste that 17g of coffee, especially if it's the first drink in the morning and I'm mostly concerned about the caffeine.
Love my flair. Really enjoy savoring the time to make my morning espresso. Measuring hand grinding and pressing. It's sort of like a morning meditation with a bonus.
I had some extraction issues at first, but it was all fixed when I just filled the basket with water to a few mm from the top. Also, the shower screen needs firmly pressing into the puck (the little silicone bit should indent). Delish espresso every time with a nice medium dark roast :) I'd take this over a machine with a boiler just to avoid the slow warm up and the maintenance, cleaning, descaling...
You hit all the points that are on my list as well. Also tiny footprint and the ability to control pressure, preinfusion, and even temperature. To get such level of control in a traditional machine, one would have to pay thousands more...
Completely agree you get to avoid the maintenance. It's a wonderful machine. I have a neat and tidy little tiny box with spare parts and silicone grease if needed.
I have been living in Germany and maintenance was very much in my mind when I opted for the Robot. My water is extremely hard, so much so that I have to descale my kettle every two months, max, in spite of using a water filter. For a filter coffee machine...eh...yeah it's alright to descale it frequently, and in the worst case, replace it, but for an electric espresso machine, especially for the cost and finicky nature of the beast, all I could think was "hell, no!" And at this point, all I can say is that "no maintenance" is just the icing on the cake with the Robot as it's such an inherently sweet little device. The learning curve for getting a good or even excellent shot was extremely low - I also found that overfilling the basket with water, then pulling only what I need is key. The preheating thing is largely a myth imo (yes, even with lighter roasts), and it's just a joy to use. And it makes delicious shots! I giggle every time I look at it, and sometimes even pat it on the head. It's 1000% my bag :)
I really dig my flair pro 2. Work flow is fun and fast. After dialing in it is repeatable. It looks like a 1900s piston press. Having not tried the cafelat robot, I can only comment on its appearance: not my shot of espresso. The only problem that I experienced with the flair, is the fact that I cannot stop making and consuming shots, once started, but that is a self-control issue. It is so satisfying/hypnotizing to watch the various animal print patterns develop on top of the shots.... Thanks for the video, as usual! Cheers! ⬛️
I love my pro. I use it almost 1-2x a day. I wish the preheat was less of a hassle, but it really isn’t too big of a deal considering I start heating my piston and water right away and then pull out my flair, grind my beans, etc and by that time the water is a good temp and my piston is up to temp
@classicrockonly, I have a pot of water boiling with the brewhead in it, while I get the rest together, It’s often ready before I’m done grinding and weighting. Granted, the hot water in our apartment building is scolding; so, it takes very little to get the metal to temp.
@@Crime_Lab I do a 2 piece solution. I have a moka pot base that I put my brew head into and then boil water in my Hario pour over kettle. I've seen some cool tricks that I might try out one day to hold the brew head in place so I could cut my boiling down to 1 pot
Hey its Doug, thanks for the shout out! Glad I was able to help 🙂🤙 excellent video, very fair and I think the detail you added about slamming the puck with 9bar initially will help a lot of peeps out. One other golden tip is to seal the double spout with food grade silicone so you can attach it to the PF, put some boiling water in & attach it to the robot whilst preparing your puck. This really makes preheating a breeze and makes a huge difference to temperature stability if not pulling back to back shots 🤙
Thanks for the help again Doug! Super helpful, I would’ve likely wasted a ton of coffee before figuring that out. In terms of preheating the piston I saw you can use the plunger form an Aeropress to block the spouts. It actually works pretty well, and you’ll likely see me do it when it comes to the Flair vs Robot video.
@Mike Edwards you can still pre-infuse before hitting the puck hard, but i wouldn't go more than 10 seconds. You are making espresso not an immersion brew.
Basically, you have solved my problem with grind size - I usually had it dialled around 11-13 on the Niche. I was doing preinfusion for 10 seconds at 2 bars, and then ramp up tu 9 bars and holding it there - reversing the pressure profile, sort of (9 bars to 6) indeed did change my results. However - I do press the shower screen into the puck before extraction. 13-17 on the Niche seems to be a good range. Overall, however, both methods, giving different results, seem to be viable and pressure profiling is fun! I do like the Robot for the textural shots. Coupled with the conical burrs, it is an iconic duo. Since I am a cold war geek, I really like the 50s vibe of the Robot. As for the disadvantages you have listed, apart from the tamper one, these are negligible for me. I add water straight off the boil and seem to get good temp in the cup in the end - I do preheat my cups though. I use thick Loveramics espresso cups that retain a decent amount of heat.
The robot hands and new tamper make a huge difference and improve the experience quite a bit. They really should start including both with the machine. Also really recommend using the paper filters, particularly for that slow ramp technique - I wish I didn't have to use them as it seems wasteful, but they improve my shots and you can reuse them.
Of course! I want to be sure people can get the full picture. Of course it may or may not be helpful as the Niche is getting to be about a year old now, and who knows where my burrs are aligned compared to others.
@@Sprometheus Once I realized it was supposed to resemble a robot, I realized that the espresso was also coming from between it's legs. It's pooping espresso and I can't unsee it. But hey it poops tasty espresso so I'll take it
This is great. I've had the Robot for a little over a year now and have always wondered about extraction percentages. Would love a more in depth video on pressure profiling and extraction percentages with the Robot like you did a little bit here. For the Flair vs Robot video you want to do, maybe you can also compare extraction percentages?
When I want to see the gauge, I turn the Robot around and lean over, which also happens to be a very comfortable position. The tamper is very easy to center; I use my thumbs to line it up and to tamp. I’m averaging 12-15 lbs tamping pressure and am getting constantly great shots. FWIW, hard tamps are way over rated!
Turning it around is a really sneaky trick, I'll try this today! I've come to a similar conclusion over the past few days on tamp pressure also and am getting much nicer results around the 6-8 bar range. How are you measuring your tamp pressure in this case? My puck levelling and tamping are two really inconsistent variables in my routine that I'd love to get some control over!
I considered turning around, but being against a wall it doesn’t give much room to lean over, plus couldn’t fit the camera over there. But still would like to see it function like the Flair and be able to tilt. I’m of the mindset that I prefer to let the grinder do more work than the tamp. But manual machines are always a fine line between flow and choke. Haha
I only use the pressure of the tamper. I got this idea from John Buckman at Decent. There is "some" evidence that tamping pressure increases the chances of channeling. It kind of makes sense. Water wants to go in areas with the least resistance. The more compact the grinds the more water moves towards the edges. It's just an idea. Science has answered many cosmological questions. Why can't science be employed in the art of making espresso?
@@davidhunternyc1 Interesting, i tamp all the way, very strong. I push with two thumbs until I feel the puck cannot be compressed any more, then I swirl and tamp again, swirl and tamp. To avoid channeling, i preinfuse for 10 seconds. Then it all goes smoothly, I make sure the extraction of the desired volume is complete under 30 seconds to avoid potential under extraction at lower temperatures near the end. I would assume taming too light would result in faster flow, so to compensate one would have to grind finer. I should try it some time. It is hard to convince myself to start making changes if the results I am getting are already so good.
@@VoidedTea So does the 30 second time = 10 second pre-infusion + 20 second extraction? Or is your total time 40 seconds? Thanks. Yes, I make sure that the tamper compresses the grounds only. I do not use any weight or force of my own but I don't baby it either. If my fingers press down slightly as I swirl the tamper it's O.K. The goal is to get even, consistent compression from shot to shot.
You mention that the basket dumps heat quick-I'm not sure if this is true? It could be, but it's designed to have a very low thermal mass, so while it *gets hot* quickly, that means that it's not taking much heat away from the water at all because it reaches thermal equilibrium very quickly. I haven't tried this so I may just be totally wrong, but I expect that by the time you've added your grounds, tamped, and put the basket in the portafilter, any heat that you'd added to the basket would have already dissipated... People pre-heat the piston (for lighter roasts at least) because it has a larger thermal mass, but as you note there's not much of a point if you're pulling back to back to back shots. One "mod" people do is to fill up the spouts on the spouted bottom with a food-grade silicone, then attach that to the portafilter, fill it with boiling water (a little under half way), and attach it to the Robot while you prep the basket. This preheats both the piston and the portafilter, and then when you're done prepping the puck, you can just dump the water, remove the spouts, add the basket, and press as normal. I'm definitely not going to say that you should test all of these methods' effects on extraction and taste, but I'm definitely curious about what actual effects these various approaches have.
Perhaps that’s the case, but since I have no way of testing the water temp of once the portafilter is locked in I have to go with what I see outside of that. The Flair for example has a much thicker brew chamber, and stays hotter longer once warmed, plus a smaller opening so less heat escapes. But in the end, the shots are still great so not a major complaint, just a noticeable thing.
@@Sprometheus check out the temp measurement videos from Paul Pratt as well as probe measurements by multiple people on the HB thread, that show pretty even temps.
@@Sprometheus I think you’re misunderstanding that the larger thermal mass of the of the flair brew chamber is the *reason* it requires a preheat (otherwise it will draw relatively large amounts of thermal energy away from the water). It’s actually a /downside/ of the flair’s design. By contrast, the fact that the robot “loses heat quickly” (meaning it has a small thermal mass) is the reason it does *not need* a preheat; it will rapidly equilibrate with the temperature of whatever is inside it, without drawing much heat out of the water; this is a /good/ thing.
I went through the same process about a month ago and eventually went with the Robot. I didn’t like the pre-heating ritual with the Flair and when I learned that preheating is not recommended with the Robot for medium and dark roasts, that was the most deciding factor for me. I also like the look of the Robot more.
I have been using a Cafelat for over 2 years, getting perfect shots every time. Here's the recipe: 15.5 grams coffee in the portafilter, drag a paperclip through the grounds to remove clumps, knock once on countertop to densify, firmly press the tamper, pour boiling hot water, quickly place portafilter into machine, then quick but slight pressure until I see the coffee emerge from the portafilter, then immediately about 10 bars pressure, extract 28 grams in 20-25 seconds, enjoy. If it takes more than 30 seconds or less than 20, adjust the grind. No double spout. That's it.
Nice review thanks! Surprised you were seeing puck lift - I thought this would only happen if releasing pressure suddenly - important to always keep positive pressure. I typically do a 0-2 bar 10-15 sec preinfusion, followed by ramp up to 8 bar, then slowly down to 6-7 and hold there, then tail off back down to 0 over the last few sec. I haven’t noticed much of a change with preheating at sea level, but believe it would be important at high altitudes where water boils at a noticeably lower temp. My preheating accessories: “Mason Jar Lifestyle” 4oz silicone sleeve (from Amazon) slipped on bottom of portafilter allows preheating portafilter + basket by pouring in boiling water. If I want to preheat the piston, I use the optional Cafelat pressurized basket (small single hole at bottom) + portafilter to run a “shot” of boiling water through the robot before pulling a normal espresso shot with the normal pro basket. I’m no espresso “supertaster” (and mostly a latte drinker anyway) so don’t know if I’m getting all the extraction and complexity there is to get. I’ll have to compare for myself with what comes out of pro machines at some point.
Very interesting, as I’ve experience fast watery pulls more often than not, with the robot. I’ve been moistening the portafilter in an attempt to create a pastier layer of coffee at the bottom of the portafilter, with hit/miss success. I’d be curious to know how your coffee friends were able to determine it was ‘puck lifting’ causing the issue? One of the few informative coffee channels - thanks for posting.
Yeah so I think the puck lift was best shown by how the puck stuck to the screen on the show I showed about cleaning. That was on an earlier, watery pull. From the point where I changed the approach all the pucks were firmly planted in the basket. Thanks for watching and the kind words my friend!
@@Sprometheus I've never had a puck stick to the screen. When I saw that I was wondering if I was doing something wrong. Mine are firmly stuck to the bottom of the basket.
Many people, myself included, use a longish 10-15 seconds pre-infusion at ~2 bar to swell the puck and reduce channeling. Did you experiment with that? How did that work for you?
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. I *always* pre-infuse, and also use the paper filter below the shower screen to help maximize the evenness of extraction. I haven't noticed any puck lift or strangely fast shots; I didn't even know that that was a problem people had! Conversely, I've never tried a direct, slow ramp up to 9 bars, nor the quick ramp that he mentions fixed the problems caused by that slow ramp, so I don't know how either of those work. It's always a ~10-15 second pre-infusion, pretty quick ramp up to 7-8 bar, and then just feel it out from there.
I toyed with pre-infusion a bit, but I found the shots tasted a bit over extracted when I used that method. Likely was due to the coffee used being a little more soluble. I found the time the puck had to soak in the portafilter between adding water and locking in was plenty to allow for a smooth flow and expansion.
@@Sprometheus The over extraction is due to preheating, especially for darker roasts. Don’t preheat anything and preinfusion works beautifully. Try it.
Hey, that's my machine! Thanks for the review. I think you did a good job with your goal of giving a new take on things. I'm curious about what you said about the machine learning toward texture and not acidity and clarity. Isn't that opposite of what people usually say about levers? I don't dispute your opinion but I was wondering if you could speculate why that might be. It was funny to see Doug in your DMs. Felt like an Easter egg seeing that one. I might try hitting the puck even harder after pre-infusion. Did you pre-infuse? Thanks again for the video. I've resubscribed since I haven't missed a video since.
Yeah, you know I didn’t know what to expect. But the same coffee pulled on the Flair was so much brighter and complex. The Robot came off more balanced and heavy. Neither are bad, but both very different in my experience. Same dose, same temp, and trying to match the same style of shot. I didn’t do any pre-infusion on the shots I ended up liking, just a hard press and descending to 6 bar for the duration. I was totally happy with the outcome using that method. Thanks for watching!
A couple things. Thumb tamping for the basket. Also it works better with lighter tamping, using your thumbs. And second pushing down near the hands to get the best leverage. The new tamper is very nice and removes some guessing. I grind 20g and pre infuse for 15 seconds around 2 bars and then jump to 8 bars for the 30seconds to get my 50g out. Were you filling the basket completely leave a small 5mm gap? I find when people don’t do that they have more issues.
I probably have loads of questions for you! I'm normally using 18g coffee and putting in 65g water and using a scales to get 40g out - it sounds like you're filling the basket way more than me (5mm from the top of the basket?) and stopping the shot when you hit your final amount? I'm looking at ordering a leveller from ipoktala on instagram as it seemed more repeatable for me than guessing if I have evenly spaced grinds and ending up with different parts of the puck being more densely / sparsely packed? Is there a good site where you picked up some of these tips by the way? I'm only about a month into owning the robot so loads to learn!
@@joconnell in the user manual, and then on Home Barista as well, Paul explicitly suggests filling the basket 5-8mm from the top. This provides consistent pressure, because you're compressing just water rather than water and air.
@@joconnell so currently I don’t weigh my shots anymore as the Kruve espresso glasses I bought basically have a 50g line. The cup is too big to fit under the robot with a scale. And yes I fill the basket basically full. I am pretty sure the 5mm reference is either in the manual or on the Paul Pratt YT videos where he shows how to pull a shot. I also do a WDT method in the basket and use the new self leveling tampers own weight basically to compress the puck with pushing down with my finger tips. The old tamper I used the thumb tamp method. I saw that on Prima coffee and it made sense. Also the light v hard tamp was at the request of a fellow redditor. Check out the robot subreddit. And when I tamped hard it caused the preinfusion to not be uniform and the shot tasted weird. Maybe sour. And it was slower by 5 seconds. Light tamping has gotten me much more consistent results. Preinfusion and pressure are all up to you. Play around with it. That is what makes the robot great. If I am dialing my beans and the shot is running fast at 8 bar, normally can feel it in the arms, I will back the pressure down mid shot until it flows consistent. The subreddit has lots of info. Found some stuff on home barista website and also James Hoffmann. But really watching Paul Pratt explain and show how to pull shots is where I started along with reading the manual which is a pdf on the site.
@@r_bear lovely, I didn't find a printed manual with the robot so went on the james hoffmann video and the simple steps on the back, that's what I get :D - thanks for the pointer on home barista too, will pour over all of that!
For me, I knew I wanted to get a manual espresso machine but I definitely wanted to also have the option to do milk drinks. it was a toss up between the Robot + a milk steamer, and a LP Europiccola. In the end, I realized that I didn't want to deal with the additional clutter of having a separate appliance for milk steaming, so I just went with the Europiccola. I do think your comment about the Robot aiming at a specific niche in coffee can be applied to all manual 'spro machines, however!
That’s true. It takes a certain type or person to want to control over all things. I’m not that person, and my Mini is my daily. But these are fun to use from time to time.
It seems I got lucky. I got my polished aluminum Robot in 2019 for $370. I use a BPlus Apollo hand grinder with my Robot. Still, I'm very curious about your methodology. You don't pre-infuse at all? You immediately pound the puck to 9 bars? Then back down to 6 bars? This is quite different than the method I've settled upon but yours might be better. Would you please reply here with more details about how much pressure you apply, when, and for how long? I would like to try your method for myself. When preparing the puck I let the weight of the tamper push down on the grinds. This way I know that the pressure is fairly consistent. The art of making espresso is often surrounded by myth. There is no scientific evidence that, when preparing the puck, downward pressure on the grinds creates a better shot but can, in fact, cause channeling. Life is about learning and I'm excited to try your method. Thank you.
I doubt his method is better, he is still learning what works and what doesn’t. Preinfusion is a critical step, every serious machine is designed to mimic low pressure preinfusion. He explained in the comments that he decided to skip preinfusion because he was getting too much over-extraction. What he didn’t realize is that over-extraction was a result of pre-heating of all components. Had he not done pre-heating, pre-infusion would work beautifully. He just needs a bit more experimentation, that’s it.
@@VoidedTea Pre-infusion tor 10 - 20 seconds. Then ratcheting up pressure to 9 bars for 5 - 10 seconds. Then lowering pressure slowly for the rest of the shot. 35 - 45 seconds total. This mimics a spring lever and is the profile (I think) most Robot users have adopted.
@@davidhunternyc1 Yes, this is pretty much what I do as well, but on the shorter side - 10 and 25 seconds accordingly. I found that extracting longer than 25 seconds leads to a bigger temperature drop at the end leading to extracting too much sour flavours. Staying under 30 seconds solves this problem.
@@VoidedTea Yes, I wanted to keep everything general in terms of procedure, hence the varied timing. I experimented too with short shot times to good effect.
@@davidhunternyc1 @voidedTea thanks for those recipes - some of the approaches here have thrown me off and gotten worse results. Sprometheus' approach of going right to 9 bars seemed to explode the puck for me and got a load of channeling
Agree with almost everything you said except the design! I love the way it looks. Appreciate the info regarding the watery shots. Have had that happen on my attempts to preinfuse and now I know why. Ironically the only reason I really keep mine is because one day I’ll have an espresso bar at home and I think it’ll look cool on the shelf :D
Though I have a stainless version without any paint coating, and I think it’s the best looking of the bunch.... can’t stand the tamper - hurts whatever part of your hand you try to tamp with.
Thank you for the review. I have a Robot as a backup machine, when I don't have the time to use my commercial lever. It produces nice espresso, but somewhat muddy/messy in terms of the taste and you can't compare the complexity of the shots. I haven't had any issue with puck lift though using the very same or even coarser grind as my real machine. But I am going to try a harsh press without PI, it is interesting.
I love doing things the hard way. I prefer archery hunting to using rifles. I prefer analog sound equipment to digital. I'd rather go fly fishing than use bait. That being said, I haven't been drawn to manual espresso machines (at least not yet). I'm still relatively early in my espresso journey, and I find it difficult enough to be consistent without introducing additional variables. Mad respect to any that uses one of these on the daily.
Haha well the manual machine is the hard way. You need a Hive to hand roast, a hand grinder, and a hand machine to be fully in charge of all the factors. It does indeed add a ton of variables, even more so than a traditional machine. So I’d say save it for a bit further down the road when you want to really experiment and get outside the box.
@@Sprometheus Yeah, it would be really cool to eventually get to the point where I could hand roast, hand grind, and manually extract and get a great shot. That's 100% doing it the hard way, and it's an exciting challenge, but one I'm definitely not up for yet!
@@Sprometheus Haha, I have a Flair and a Feldgrind, but not the Hive roaster. I also have a small Solo backpacking wood stove. Just imagine roasting over a fire lol.
hi! thank you for your work. i have a question: Can you recommend a tamper for this type of basket? and suggest other accessories to improve my experience with the shots. thanks 😃
With your comment about the ergonomics I could not help but notice that the accompanying video showed you with your hands roughly in the middle of the arms. This technique is counter productive as you are losing half your leverage! Yes the robot's hands can be uncomfortable to press, I completely agree, but moving your hands that far up the arms is just not on. Adding the mittens would be the best bet for comfort, but I myself (a short, older and not nearly as strong as she used to be woman) have no problem with the general ergonomics if I keep my hands on or very close to the robot's hands.
@@Sprometheus tbh I got it because it looks great and goes well with the Alessi Juicy Salif. I don't have the flair but am considering it. I love my 9Barista atm.
Good video. I've got a flair and am very happy with it, but I'd be very curious about any more tips to getting the best extraction on it, like you gave here. I get good shots, but often more acidic than I'd want and am still trying to figure out the ultimate process. Really looking forward to the head-to-head.
I use Cafelat, but had the same issue with acidity at first. The problem was that I tried to grind too fine, which resulted in longer extraction time (around 60 seconds). Eventually I figured out that longer extraction time means that I am extracting too much at lower temperatures by the end of the pull leading to too much acidity. I increased my grind setting to make sure that extraction time doesn’t exceed 30 seconds for the required volume and haven’t had acidity problem ever since. If your extraction time is also too long, worth a try to increase the grind size. Disclaimer - I am using medium and medium dark roasts, if you prefer lighter roasts, acidity might be part of the normal flavour profile.
I have a Flair and so far so good - after a few months with it, I've finally reached a point that I'm getting consistent shots time and time again (put in mind i'm not using an "espresso" grinder - just a Baratza Encore at a 4 to 6 setting.) Although I do like the design of the "portafilter / grouphead" It can be very annoying to clean out, especially if I want, or need, to pull a second shot (something I don't really do - may consider purchasing a additional one or more for that purpose.) Although I don't have experience with the Cafelat Robot - seems that it's "portafilter" is at least, easier to clean than the Flair in order to pull additional shots. Speaking as an Industrial Designer myself - the design is definitely out of this world (bad joke, I'm sorry) - but from a user experience perspective, the levers could be better - not sure if it hurt when pulling (pressing) the shot? That's why I like the Flair (and likely would the Rok as well,) - the arm(s) are more ergonomic - ultimately putting less strain on the arms and wrists. At least in the case of the Flair, if all the variables are correct - mostly with the grind setting, It is possible to push the lever down with just a finger (but i've never tried that.)
The cleaning practically takes 3 seconds. The puck comes out by itself and there is usually a few grounds left at the bottom. A quick 1 sec rinse is all that’s needed. I always pull two shots for me and my wife, and can usually do it all in 5 min. There is no pre-heating either because we use medium-dark roasts.
Everyone mentions that it makes syrupy shots compared to flair 58, my question is can the flair 58 also make syrupy shots if you wanted it to on purpose? And for someone who prefers lower acidity espresso and drinks it mostly black which machine would be best to use?
That's a really interesting tip about "puck lift", I'm going to try going heavy at the start today and see how things go. I found the same thing as yourself in terms of fast shots and needing to grind stupidly fine to get 8 - 10 bars of pressure but it seems like that water getting under would explain this? I was following james hoffmann's approach of putting in roughly the amount of water that I want out plus the absorption amount for the grounds so 18g coffee and about 65g water to hit 40g on a scales, did you put in far more water into the basket? I'd imagine that more water would give you the possibility of more pressure for longer? Cheers!
I always aimed for about 50-60g of water in, accounting for absorption and all that. But I wasn’t often weighing my shots on the Robot and just kind of going with the feedback from the levers and the shot color. But I think there is a benefit of having a little extra water in there for not only pressure, but also temp stability.
@@Sprometheus Many I know put the water level to within 1cm of the top and use a scale during the shot. This reduces air compression which absorbs some of the initial pressure on the levers
@@danbodoh Same on the Flair; you fill water to the piston so there’s no air under it to press. And even more important because the BPF is not locked to the brew chamber.
Really helpful tips here for Cafelat Robot owners! I tried preheating with my Robot today the way you did, and my portafilter was full of little steam droplets. Is that to be expected with preheating or should I wipe those away? Also what temperature water do you use? I've been using 208°F but haven't experimented much with that. Thanks!
Be careful, not all his findings are accurate. For example, preheating for darker roasts will lead to over extraction and a lot of bitterness and burnt notes in your espresso. So, don’t preheat at all if you use traditional espresso roasts. Preheating is only necessary for lighter and some medium roasts. He also does not preinfuse, which is another mistake. I don’t blame him, we all went through the same trial and error process, he is just not an experienced Robot user. For a short time that he spent with the Robot he did a lot of things right, but missed a couple of point which I am trying to correct here.
I would definitely wipe out any moisture inside the basket, you don’t want the coffee to contact water before you begin extracting because it could cause channeling or other issues. Temp wise I go straight off boil into the portafilter with lighter roasts, 200-202 with medium to dark roasts
@@VoidedTea Starting out with a “be careful” is a little intense, like I’m dangerously misleading people. Maybe you’ve been using the robot for a long time, and I welcome your opinions, and experience, but I ask that you please don’t frame my personal experience or brewing preferences as “mistakes” because they don’t match yours. The beauty of this and other lever machines is they allow you to explore espresso outside of the parameters that a pump machine locks you into.
@@Sprometheus I think you are slightly overreacting to what I said. And in my defence, you do give misleading advice, like preheating is a must (no, it is not), and it is better to skip preinfusion (again no, it is not). You didn’t specify in the video that you are using “personal brewing preferences” that are different from user manual recommendation and, as you can see in the comments, many people do take your advice almost as directives, which is a mistake. So my choice of words was quite appropriate if you think that I am warning people to be careful about the way they absorb your information, not about information itself.
@@VoidedTea no one believes that my reviews are the end all, be all of coffee advice. No one believes that there is only one way to get a good shot on this machine, or any machine. I shouldn’t have to explicitly say that this is my opinion or personal experience on my channel on a review I made. Every reviewer has their own spin and take on what they do and how they do it. As a fellow coffee lover all I’m asking for is a little mutual respect, and maybe less of a “you did this wrong” and more of a “I find that this works best for me and darker roasts”. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for.
@@VladGiurgiu7 well, it's wdt. but i was doing tapping and wdt poorly before. i now work through the height of the grounds slowly and then one bang on the table to settle the grounds at the end.
This thing is pretty cool and all but for that price you can get something like a la pavoni where you don't really have to preheat anything separately, boil water separately and you get an integrated steam wand. So I don't really see how this thing can compete. It's a nice novelty for sure but just not a great daily Driver IMO.
I love the looks and all.. But I feel the ROK competes with it at half the price. This is unique of course but not sure if it's worth paying double for. Maybe at 300 it would be great. A manual machine which figures out heat dissipation soon could blow everyone out of the water.
I am a Flair owner, and when I was doing my research I was very conflicted between the Cafelat Robot and the Flair. It’s funny that you mention not being a fan of the aesthetics of the Robot because that was ultimately the deciding factor for me to choose the Flair
I forget this a lot. Apparently the 9 bar quote is in the group head but when the water hits the coffee puck it's far lower so 7 might be much closer to what a powered espresso machine might be pulling at!
Thanks for your take. Can you comment on whether or not it can stay hot enough for light roast given a preheat routine? For instance is the final temperature in cup comparable to what you'd experience with a light roast on your Linea? I'm wondering if I'd be able to pair it with a flat SSP unimodal burrs Lagom P64
For light roasts I find it works well to put the coffee in, fill the basket with boiling water, let it sit for a second, dump the water out, replace water with more water off the boil and pull the shot.
@@cameronbatko Ah I get you. Warm the coffee itself too. Do you find yourself still desiring more temperature after that or does that suffice? Do you find shots to be on the sour side?
@@iwouldpayattention I have not tasted a sour shot yet. I am also not sure what a sour shot tastes like either. I image it would be off putting. I have not had any off putting shots. And when it is in the espresso cup afterwards it will burn your mouth if I don’t let it sit for a minute. Edit: I did get a sour shot once. It was when I was testing light v hard tamping. The hard tamp slowed my shot time by 5 sec and caused uneven distribution during the preinfusion and made the end result taste off. Which may have been sour
@@cameronbatko I see. Yes it may have been. Sourness is typically indicative of under extraction so maybe water didn't visit parts of puck enough. Do you think holding a pre-infusion for up to 30secs as Sprometheus did would result in too much heat loss? For instance do your longer pre-infusions taste more acidic?
Nice review. I’ve had one for a year and I LOVE it. I did buy the new tamper and then robot mittens (mainly because I like the look). I love the process and LOVE how well this makes espresso. I don’t think you can beat the quality of espresso for the machine. (I do own the barista version because I think its important to have)
Preheat isn't always necessary, and when it is it can be cheated by simply filling, dumping and refilling the PF. Or just hold it at a slight angle over the sink and over fill. Also, did someone with a $5k machine really have anything to say about the price of a robot? :)
Interestingly, I was on the market for Gaggia Classic Pro but picked the Robot because it is a more reliable option for the price. Gaggia is a relatively cheap option for a reason among prosumer machines. People complain about temperature control. There is no pressure profiling either. Robot gives both those options for the same price. With Robot, there is no preheat, no maintenance, no water concerns, descaling, etc. For me, it is an ideal espresso maker. And I don’t use milk.
Easier to pre-heat all parts of the Flair....can't easily get at the Robot piston to pre-heat it. Flair for me, since easy to clean, less expensive and it has a more comfy handle.
@@r_bear ya I get that. I don't think it would take away from the experience of a manual machine. Or incorporate a "preheating chamber" where you can pour hot water in, have an easy way to remove it, without interfering with the brewing chamber. Less mess and fuss. Also mainly speaking in hypotheticals.
I think 'puck lift' might be mis-describing the issue a little, and confusing people. I've had the same issues Sprometheus had, and also found minimal pre-infusion and higher pressure at the start of the espresso extraction to help alot. Personally, I think 'puck-lift' is simply the coffee grounds suspended in the water a little bit- caused by low pressure and slow pre-infusion. A high-ish initial pressure compresses the (mostly) dry puck, creating the required resistance to water flow to generate an adequately high extraction pressure. Slow, low-pressure pre-infusion allows the water to penetrate the puck fully and start to give the individual coffee grinds some buoyancy/suspension. High pressure after this occurs simply pushes the water AROUND the coffee particles, creating a watery/inconsistent result. I think that a fully, slowly preinfused puck my not compress reliably/consistently, like a puck that's infused quicker and/or at a somewhat higher pressure...
I agree that cost wise Flair is a better option. I picked the Robot for its easy operation comparing to Flair, particularly there is no need to preheat anything, except for light roasts, and there is practically nothing to clean at the end. I was watching many videos about Flair and came to a conclusion that it cannot work without preheating. That was was a major turning point for me toward a more expensive option.
@@VoidedTea That is a fair point, it is pretty much necessary to preheat the Flair to get a sweet shot. I am not judging those who bought the Robot, it is a beautiful piece of kit, just too expensive for me.
@@VoidedTea Once you get used to the workflow it’s pretty easy actually. I can still make a shot in about 5 min, and I use the preheat time to grind with my Kinu
I prefer the Flair because of the smaller pack down size, which both the Rok and this lacks. Also the way you use a Flair is somewhat like the La Pavoni or other lever machine, where as the side down squeeze is a bit unique. More like one of those workout machine for bigger tits or something.
I have the CafeLat Robot. Heating of the portofilter is trivial. I do my bean grinding then let it sit to loose static electricity. During that time I place the portofilter in microwave for 60 sec. Yes, in the microwave! Contrary to urban myth, you can put metal in a microwave, just make sure it does not touch the sides of the oven (of course confirm with your own unit). In this case you will find the inner filter will get very hot. And you can tune the temperature by varying the microwave intensity/time. Another tip is to purchase a very thin o-ring that will fit around the filter basket and insulate it from the heavy metal portofilter handle. Also, ignore this authors worries about heating the piston. It is not an issue as it is separated from the heated water by an air gap.
Small world. I was apart of a group that ended up banning G***t L****** because of how he was allegedly harassing people and putting them down regarding their espresso techniques. 🙄
Please don't make the comparison yet. Buy the ROK, compare the three. I like the ROK's look muuuuuch more and I'd like to buy one, but I've never played with espresso and don't want to buy the worse option
Good video! Just one thing. Thinness of the basket is actually good because it’s not a heat sink. The bigger the mass, the more heat it will take away. The basket being thin and making little contact w the portafilter is what allows you to get away without preheating.
Not sure why you're pressing halfway down the levers. Pressing on the ends makes it quite easy to have enough leverage to be able to look at the guage.
I agreed with most parts except for "preheating is a must". I found with darker roasts preheating leads to too much campfire and bitter notes (over extraction), while no preheating at all gives delicious results. Even some medium roasts are ok without preheating, with a bit more acidity, bit still quite pleasant. So I would say preheating is optional depending on the roast and personal taste.
Never experienced puck lift, probably because I tap very strong. Agreed with grinding coarser, the results are fuller and more complex this way. Normally, I preinfuse for 10 sec at low pressure, then go quickly to 8 bars and stay for 20 sec and then go down to 6 bars for the remaining 10 sec. Agreed with unique taste profile of espresso, more toward classical espresso with full body, and less toward clarity and acidity.
I do like the look of the Robot, and I think there is one plastic part - which is the tube for the pressure gauge (hidden underneath metal cover).
Overall, good review but practically all negatives are either attributed to technique or personal taste. I think it’s totally worth the price considering all positives, such as delicious espresso, ability to control preinfusion, pressure, and even temperature, almost zero maintenances, ability to make espresso in less than 5 min any time of the day (no warming up of equipment), virtually nonexistent footprint, great conversation item, longevity (my grandkids will probably be able to use it). The only real “drawback” of the Robot is the fact that temperature naturally drops during extraction, which is different from espresso machines that deliver more stable temperature though the entire extraction time. But whether it is a real drawback or, in fact, is a blessing is up for debate, because unique taste of Cafelat espresso might very well be the result of this phenomenon.
This little or no preheat is part of why I’m interested in adding the Robot to my list of coffee makers. I love my flair pro a lot but there’s a lot that goes into preheat
Same here! I started out preheating thinking it was necessary but tried not preheating one day and my shots improved significantly, much sweeter, less astringent and I haven't bothered preheating since. And I doubt I'll ever have to do it because I prefer doing pour over on lighter roasts.
There are a lot of little hacks too to make the whole experience better
1) Pressing on the arms at high pressure was very uncomfortable for me too. They started selling the stainless steel mittens but if you're not willing to pay the extra, the 3D print of the mittens are also posted on reddit and I paid somebody to help me print them for 5 bucks and the whole process is much more comfortable now. Tho I'm still thinking of ordering the original mittens since they look better
2) There's also a 3D print of the self-leveling tamper, which makes tamping much easier
3) Facing the pressure gauge away from you allows you to look at it when you bend over while pressing
4) If you need to keep the arms up for a while, I secure a rubber band a few rounds around the corner of one arm such that when I lift the arms the friction holds them in place.
All in all it's really quite a breeze to use. As a complete beginner I contemplated the Flair at first but I'm really glad I got this instead because doing it everyday is really quite straightforward. Less parts to fiddle with, no preheating, clean up is quick. And it takes up much less counter space. I think the $100 extra is quite worth paying for the ease and convenience of something you're gonna be using everyday for quite a long time.
@@amandac3658 Ha, I was just looking at the mittens online today and couldn’t figure out what they are for. Apparently they improve the comfort, didn’t know that. I thought they are purely decorative. Glad you came to the same conclusion regarding preheating, and I agree how easy it is to clean and operate.
@@classicrockonly I agree, I couldn’t stand the preheat ritual when I was watching online videos about manual levers. When I learned that Robot doesn’t require preheat, I jumped right on. Of course, if you like light roasts, then preheat is a must and might still be challenging. I prefer more classic espresso style and Robot works perfectly without preheat for it. I also find the wobbliness of the loading mechanism as a plus, there is no prefect alignment of anything that is required in the process. Just slap, turn, pull, you can do it even blindfolded without any precision and it will still work great.
@@VoidedTea Sounds great! I'll get a Robot one day. I think my next item is a Behmor roaster so I can get close to 1lb batches. Then when I finish justifying that purchase I'll go through the purchase deliberation process like Homer Simpson when he was thinking of going to clown school ;)
Appreciate the fact that you checked out other videos about this and gave us something original and enjoyable to watch! (The Little Giant coffee is remarkable as well)
Thanks Luke! I try to keep things as fresh as possible, being original isn’t easy that’s for sure. I appreciate you watching and glad that you’re enjoying my coffee!
A man who has felt my pain.
You are spot on when you said that that Robot shots lean towards “density and texture” rather “clarity and acidity”. I think that this has to do more with the larger 58 bed and filter area/pore size (compared to the Flair Pro 2). I do not have a Robot, yet I use its portafilter with a custom piston on an arbor press.
Based on several reviews and especially yours I went ahead and bought the Robot. I upgraded from an Aeropress I had used for a decade and was concerned that this unit would be beyond my limited skills and ageing shoulders. But I was pleasantly surprised to get it fairly well dialed in within a few days. I like its simplicity and I agree with most of your comments though I find the handles easy to use if held at the ends where there is maximum mechanical advantage. I also bought the optional Robot hands to soften the grip. I must say the supplied tamper looked a bit grim so I got the $70 self leveling one. Thanks for your insightful review, it certainly shortened my learning curve.
I got the robot mittens and leveling tamper also just a joy to use
I love my La Pavoni. It's manual but heats up nicely. And it's inexpensive. Pure old-school joy.
A comment about the 'sloppiness' of the portafilter. It's a genius design but requires coming at it from the right angle, literally. Raise the arms of the machine all the way, and with the handle of the portafilter pointing *straight out* (at 6 o'clock viewed from above), raise the portafilter until the piston meets the water and you feel the resistance. With the handles raised all the way, the tabs of the portafilter are safely at/above where they need to be. Rotate the handle of the portafilter to the right. The bottom of the tabs on the portafilter rest on the inner lip of the machine itself, straightening it automatically, and the piston self-aligns in the basket, so there is no need to fiddle with it. Try it a few times with no coffee or water, and it will become obvious.
I have solved the mystery about Cafelat Robot finer grinding compared to the regular espresso machines - The grinding is the same just have to be used more comfortable tamper for harder pressure (leveling feature is preferable). I have printed handle for my Cafelat Robot tamper and now I can press enough hard... Now, the grinding setting of my grinder is same as the setting for La Marzocco machine in my local roastery (I have check that - thankyou for that opportunity of my local roastery).
I’ve scowered the internet for tips like this as I’m struggling with grind size. I’ll try your technique. Thanks for posting!
I use a pair of bicycle gloves when using this machine (no more hand pain after pulling a finely-ground shot). Go finer on your grind. Concentrate on the pressure you're exerting to maintain a steady thin stream during extraction to avoid channeling. Don't use the splitter. Hold the bars out further than you were in the video (closer to c-shaped hands) for better leverage. 6 bars is enough pressure for a nice extraction IMHO. The best grinder to use with it is the Comandante C40 manual grinder. It's like they were made for each other. The glass cup fits perfectly in diameter with the Robot's portafilter. So you can just pop the portafilter on top of the collection cup and flip it over to get all of the ground coffee in there. Use something to stir in the portafilter and break up the clumps and you should get a nice solid puck that will not lift.
I got the Robot and Comandante duo! Just got the Robot yesterday... Around what grind setting do you use for the c40? I'm around 6 or 7 clicks (without red clix) and I'm pulling 1:2 shots (14g in, 28ml out). Not sure when to start the timer though; the moment I add the water to the basket or when I start dropping the arms down... Do you suggest going to 6 bars immediately after the 10 second preinfusion at 1 bar? And keeping it at 6 bar until the end? Would appreciate your help! Thanks in advance!
@@bowieknife Yes, 6 or 7 clicks seems to be the sweet spot for me too. I usually pre-infuse for about five to seven seconds the most. I go over 6 bars when pulling a shot but you don't have to push down to the point of death. If you push down too hard the puck will start to get channelled and you'll notice right away because the coffee will spray off to the side instead of in your cup. Instead of focussing on the bars, focus on the feel of the pressure you're exerting down and the resistance you're feeling back and watch the stream of coffee to make sure it's a nice steady thin stream the whole extraction. You can time the shot either before or after you pre-infuse, but it may be easier to measure your shot by weight instead. It's a pretty forgiving machine so try to have fun with it and go by taste and enjoy. Congrats on your Robot man! I love mine. My Rancilio Silvia has been collecting dust since I got the Robot, hehe.
@@LPWaterhouse Thanks so much for your guidance! I really appreciate it. I will try your tips today. :)
I have a robot myself and I've read everything i can find about it online. I don't think puck lift is real and I've never seen mention of slamming the puck with 9bar to pre-infuse. I hope you keep the robot, and I think if you make espresso the way it's laid out in the manual you'll have better success with slower ramps and lower pressures.
I agree on your experience on puck lift being rare; just wetting grounds, together with that tiny bit of pressure from the screen and the time it takes to mount the portafilter before exerting pressure, I can imagine has already completely wet the puck
It really is tough to see so many people reviewing the Robot while making so many mistakes, while all they had to do, is thoroughly read the manual. I loved my Robot and made great shots with it, but it took some practice. I upgraded to the Lelit Bianca and sold my Robot. But I sure do miss the small footprint and ease of cleaning.
I just got one and my first shot was watery with it hardly registering 2 bars on the gauge. Adjusted the grind and still watery but just over 2 bars.
Will try again in the morning. I’m at a 16g dose and following the instructions. I’m guessing it’s a combination of needing to go much finer than what I used for my old 9 bar pump machine and the beans not being as fresh as usual.
@@CrazyCalabrese78 What grinder are you using ????
@@rjejames28 Eureka Mignon. It’s all working fine now thanks. Took me 3-4 days to dial in. My first bag was a bit stale and the other bag I had was filter roast. I’m usually around 17-18g per shot now.
Ive had this machine for a couple of weeks, always getting shots a little sour with 7 - 8 clicks on comandante grinder. Saw your video and tried the 9bar 10 sec and then 6bar until the end, used 8 clicks on comandante, 16g in 36g out in about 60 sec (including 10s with 9bar), best shot ive got so far, a little bitter but not too much, will try with 9 clicks tomorrow. Also i didnt pre heat anything. Thanks a lot for your video.
Glad to hear the video has helped out. It seems the Robot has a sweet spot and once you find it the repeatability is great. Thanks for watching and the kind words.
I had the same sour notes when I started. The problem is not very intuitive because we are told to grind finer and extract longer. For Robot, however, longer extraction is a killer because after 30 seconds the temperature drops to the point when you can only extact sour oils. So the key for a shot without any sourness is to make sure your extraction does not exceed 30 seconds. Grind a little bit coarser step by step until you can finish extraction in 30 seconds at 8 bars, including 10 seconds of preinfusion at 1-2 bars. It will be the sweetest espresso you’ve ever tried. If you use medium-dark roast, don’t preheat anything or you will end up with very bitter and burnt campfire taste. The lighter your roast, more preheating is needed, but not for medium dark. For any roast - keep your extraction under 30 second by choosing proper grind and you will have very tasty results.
@@VoidedTea will give this a go, thanks!
I just got a robot it blows my gaggia classic out of the water. I really love the workflow and clean up.
Cafelat Robot + Kinu M47 = best bang for your buck, BY FAR, for the quality of espresso you are able to extract. I’ve been using this combo for over a year now and have never been more satisfied with a purchase.
I was looking to upgrade recently, and I would’ve had to spend many thousands of pounds for the upgrade to be worth while.
You are a man who knows value. I’d have the same setup as you too.
i just bought that exact setup, arrived today but i have the same problem as the guy in the video had at the beginning, watery and no crema
i would be very grateful if you could give me some tips and if you could tell me your grindsetting and how you pull the shots
thank you
I've had a ROK for a very long time and upgraded it to the GC when that conversion kit came out. Upgrading seriously made the espresso better. Compared to automatic espresso machines, and even the other manual machines like the flair and robot, the shots tend to be more watery but the flavor to me is excellent. I also love that it has an actual portafilter, and the metal is very thick so once it's heated it doesn't lose temp very fast.
Is it the best machine ever? No. Does it make good coffee for me to enjoy through my day? Yup. I get clear flavors from the coffee and shots tend to be very sweet, and I've never really had bitterness even when the shot goes really long. I've had 50 second shots come out pretty much fine...we'll, we'll say drinkable to the point that I'm not going to waste that 17g of coffee, especially if it's the first drink in the morning and I'm mostly concerned about the caffeine.
Love my flair. Really enjoy savoring the time to make my morning espresso. Measuring hand grinding and pressing. It's sort of like a morning meditation with a bonus.
I had some extraction issues at first, but it was all fixed when I just filled the basket with water to a few mm from the top. Also, the shower screen needs firmly pressing into the puck (the little silicone bit should indent). Delish espresso every time with a nice medium dark roast :) I'd take this over a machine with a boiler just to avoid the slow warm up and the maintenance, cleaning, descaling...
You hit all the points that are on my list as well. Also tiny footprint and the ability to control pressure, preinfusion, and even temperature. To get such level of control in a traditional machine, one would have to pay thousands more...
Sounds great tbh. Even if Id get a more advanced automatic one day, this still would have its place.
Completely agree you get to avoid the maintenance. It's a wonderful machine. I have a neat and tidy little tiny box with spare parts and silicone grease if needed.
I have been living in Germany and maintenance was very much in my mind when I opted for the Robot. My water is extremely hard, so much so that I have to descale my kettle every two months, max, in spite of using a water filter. For a filter coffee machine...eh...yeah it's alright to descale it frequently, and in the worst case, replace it, but for an electric espresso machine, especially for the cost and finicky nature of the beast, all I could think was "hell, no!"
And at this point, all I can say is that "no maintenance" is just the icing on the cake with the Robot as it's such an inherently sweet little device. The learning curve for getting a good or even excellent shot was extremely low - I also found that overfilling the basket with water, then pulling only what I need is key. The preheating thing is largely a myth imo (yes, even with lighter roasts), and it's just a joy to use. And it makes delicious shots! I giggle every time I look at it, and sometimes even pat it on the head. It's 1000% my bag :)
Your tips really helped me with puck lift, thank you!
I really dig my flair pro 2. Work flow is fun and fast. After dialing in it is repeatable. It looks like a 1900s piston press. Having not tried the cafelat robot, I can only comment on its appearance: not my shot of espresso. The only problem that I experienced with the flair, is the fact that I cannot stop making and consuming shots, once started, but that is a self-control issue. It is so satisfying/hypnotizing to watch the various animal print patterns develop on top of the shots.... Thanks for the video, as usual! Cheers! ⬛️
I love my pro. I use it almost 1-2x a day. I wish the preheat was less of a hassle, but it really isn’t too big of a deal considering I start heating my piston and water right away and then pull out my flair, grind my beans, etc and by that time the water is a good temp and my piston is up to temp
@classicrockonly, I have a pot of water boiling with the brewhead in it, while I get the rest together, It’s often ready before I’m done grinding and weighting. Granted, the hot water in our apartment building is scolding; so, it takes very little to get the metal to temp.
@@Crime_Lab I do a 2 piece solution. I have a moka pot base that I put my brew head into and then boil water in my Hario pour over kettle. I've seen some cool tricks that I might try out one day to hold the brew head in place so I could cut my boiling down to 1 pot
@@classicrockonly , right on! Ingenuity inspires
Hey its Doug, thanks for the shout out! Glad I was able to help 🙂🤙 excellent video, very fair and I think the detail you added about slamming the puck with 9bar initially will help a lot of peeps out. One other golden tip is to seal the double spout with food grade silicone so you can attach it to the PF, put some boiling water in & attach it to the robot whilst preparing your puck. This really makes preheating a breeze and makes a huge difference to temperature stability if not pulling back to back shots 🤙
Thanks for the help again Doug! Super helpful, I would’ve likely wasted a ton of coffee before figuring that out.
In terms of preheating the piston I saw you can use the plunger form an Aeropress to block the spouts. It actually works pretty well, and you’ll likely see me do it when it comes to the Flair vs Robot video.
@@Sprometheus ah yes, I see a few guys using that. I look forwards to your comparison 🤙
@Mike Edwards you can still pre-infuse before hitting the puck hard, but i wouldn't go more than 10 seconds. You are making espresso not an immersion brew.
Basically, you have solved my problem with grind size - I usually had it dialled around 11-13 on the Niche. I was doing preinfusion for 10 seconds at 2 bars, and then ramp up tu 9 bars and holding it there - reversing the pressure profile, sort of (9 bars to 6) indeed did change my results. However - I do press the shower screen into the puck before extraction. 13-17 on the Niche seems to be a good range.
Overall, however, both methods, giving different results, seem to be viable and pressure profiling is fun! I do like the Robot for the textural shots. Coupled with the conical burrs, it is an iconic duo.
Since I am a cold war geek, I really like the 50s vibe of the Robot. As for the disadvantages you have listed, apart from the tamper one, these are negligible for me. I add water straight off the boil and seem to get good temp in the cup in the end - I do preheat my cups though. I use thick Loveramics espresso cups that retain a decent amount of heat.
The robot hands and new tamper make a huge difference and improve the experience quite a bit. They really should start including both with the machine. Also really recommend using the paper filters, particularly for that slow ramp technique - I wish I didn't have to use them as it seems wasteful, but they improve my shots and you can reuse them.
to wit, you can reuse them _a lot_
Ok, I'm sold. It's beautiful, well made, and I hear great things.
Loving to see shots of the grind settings in all your videos after my previous comment. The follow-up is definitely appreciated, keep it up!
Of course! I want to be sure people can get the full picture. Of course it may or may not be helpful as the Niche is getting to be about a year old now, and who knows where my burrs are aligned compared to others.
I personally love he look. Very modern and funky.
I know that many people do, it’s cool. Just looks weird in my kitchen. Seems like it’s a 1950’s movie Robot.
@@Sprometheus Once I realized it was supposed to resemble a robot, I realized that the espresso was also coming from between it's legs. It's pooping espresso and I can't unsee it. But hey it poops tasty espresso so I'll take it
U mean "retro" ?
@@Sprometheus I think that was the whole point of the design. :)
whoa. i was just researching about this and then he uploads this video
Haha perfect timing!
This is great. I've had the Robot for a little over a year now and have always wondered about extraction percentages.
Would love a more in depth video on pressure profiling and extraction percentages with the Robot like you did a little bit here.
For the Flair vs Robot video you want to do, maybe you can also compare extraction percentages?
When I want to see the gauge, I turn the Robot around and lean over, which also happens to be a very comfortable position. The tamper is very easy to center; I use my thumbs to line it up and to tamp. I’m averaging 12-15 lbs tamping pressure and am getting constantly great shots. FWIW, hard tamps are way over rated!
Turning it around is a really sneaky trick, I'll try this today! I've come to a similar conclusion over the past few days on tamp pressure also and am getting much nicer results around the 6-8 bar range. How are you measuring your tamp pressure in this case? My puck levelling and tamping are two really inconsistent variables in my routine that I'd love to get some control over!
I considered turning around, but being against a wall it doesn’t give much room to lean over, plus couldn’t fit the camera over there. But still would like to see it function like the Flair and be able to tilt.
I’m of the mindset that I prefer to let the grinder do more work than the tamp. But manual machines are always a fine line between flow and choke. Haha
I only use the pressure of the tamper. I got this idea from John Buckman at Decent. There is "some" evidence that tamping pressure increases the chances of channeling. It kind of makes sense. Water wants to go in areas with the least resistance. The more compact the grinds the more water moves towards the edges. It's just an idea. Science has answered many cosmological questions. Why can't science be employed in the art of making espresso?
@@davidhunternyc1 Interesting, i tamp all the way, very strong. I push with two thumbs until I feel the puck cannot be compressed any more, then I swirl and tamp again, swirl and tamp. To avoid channeling, i preinfuse for 10 seconds. Then it all goes smoothly, I make sure the extraction of the desired volume is complete under 30 seconds to avoid potential under extraction at lower temperatures near the end. I would assume taming too light would result in faster flow, so to compensate one would have to grind finer. I should try it some time. It is hard to convince myself to start making changes if the results I am getting are already so good.
@@VoidedTea So does the 30 second time = 10 second pre-infusion + 20 second extraction? Or is your total time 40 seconds? Thanks. Yes, I make sure that the tamper compresses the grounds only. I do not use any weight or force of my own but I don't baby it either. If my fingers press down slightly as I swirl the tamper it's O.K. The goal is to get even, consistent compression from shot to shot.
You mention that the basket dumps heat quick-I'm not sure if this is true? It could be, but it's designed to have a very low thermal mass, so while it *gets hot* quickly, that means that it's not taking much heat away from the water at all because it reaches thermal equilibrium very quickly. I haven't tried this so I may just be totally wrong, but I expect that by the time you've added your grounds, tamped, and put the basket in the portafilter, any heat that you'd added to the basket would have already dissipated...
People pre-heat the piston (for lighter roasts at least) because it has a larger thermal mass, but as you note there's not much of a point if you're pulling back to back to back shots.
One "mod" people do is to fill up the spouts on the spouted bottom with a food-grade silicone, then attach that to the portafilter, fill it with boiling water (a little under half way), and attach it to the Robot while you prep the basket. This preheats both the piston and the portafilter, and then when you're done prepping the puck, you can just dump the water, remove the spouts, add the basket, and press as normal. I'm definitely not going to say that you should test all of these methods' effects on extraction and taste, but I'm definitely curious about what actual effects these various approaches have.
Perhaps that’s the case, but since I have no way of testing the water temp of once the portafilter is locked in I have to go with what I see outside of that. The Flair for example has a much thicker brew chamber, and stays hotter longer once warmed, plus a smaller opening so less heat escapes. But in the end, the shots are still great so not a major complaint, just a noticeable thing.
@@Sprometheus check out the temp measurement videos from Paul Pratt as well as probe measurements by multiple people on the HB thread, that show pretty even temps.
@@Sprometheus I think you’re misunderstanding that the larger thermal mass of the of the flair brew chamber is the *reason* it requires a preheat (otherwise it will draw relatively large amounts of thermal energy away from the water). It’s actually a /downside/ of the flair’s design. By contrast, the fact that the robot “loses heat quickly” (meaning it has a small thermal mass) is the reason it does *not need* a preheat; it will rapidly equilibrate with the temperature of whatever is inside it, without drawing much heat out of the water; this is a /good/ thing.
Comparison video , right before Christmas?! You read my mind! I have been trying to decide between these two manuals.
I went through the same process about a month ago and eventually went with the Robot. I didn’t like the pre-heating ritual with the Flair and when I learned that preheating is not recommended with the Robot for medium and dark roasts, that was the most deciding factor for me. I also like the look of the Robot more.
I have been using a Cafelat for over 2 years, getting perfect shots every time. Here's the recipe: 15.5 grams coffee in the portafilter, drag a paperclip through the grounds to remove clumps, knock once on countertop to densify, firmly press the tamper, pour boiling hot water, quickly place portafilter into machine, then quick but slight pressure until I see the coffee emerge from the portafilter, then immediately about 10 bars pressure, extract 28 grams in 20-25 seconds, enjoy. If it takes more than 30 seconds or less than 20, adjust the grind. No double spout. That's it.
Nice review thanks! Surprised you were seeing puck lift - I thought this would only happen if releasing pressure suddenly - important to always keep positive pressure. I typically do a 0-2 bar 10-15 sec preinfusion, followed by ramp up to 8 bar, then slowly down to 6-7 and hold there, then tail off back down to 0 over the last few sec. I haven’t noticed much of a change with preheating at sea level, but believe it would be important at high altitudes where water boils at a noticeably lower temp.
My preheating accessories: “Mason Jar Lifestyle” 4oz silicone sleeve (from Amazon) slipped on bottom of portafilter allows preheating portafilter + basket by pouring in boiling water. If I want to preheat the piston, I use the optional Cafelat pressurized basket (small single hole at bottom) + portafilter to run a “shot” of boiling water through the robot before pulling a normal espresso shot with the normal pro basket.
I’m no espresso “supertaster” (and mostly a latte drinker anyway) so don’t know if I’m getting all the extraction and complexity there is to get. I’ll have to compare for myself with what comes out of pro machines at some point.
Did you know it's inspired directly on the Faema Baby??? It's a Faema design.
Very interesting, as I’ve experience fast watery pulls more often than not, with the robot. I’ve been moistening the portafilter in an attempt to create a pastier layer of coffee at the bottom of the portafilter, with hit/miss success. I’d be curious to know how your coffee friends were able to determine it was ‘puck lifting’ causing the issue?
One of the few informative coffee channels - thanks for posting.
Yeah so I think the puck lift was best shown by how the puck stuck to the screen on the show I showed about cleaning. That was on an earlier, watery pull. From the point where I changed the approach all the pucks were firmly planted in the basket.
Thanks for watching and the kind words my friend!
@@Sprometheus I've never had a puck stick to the screen. When I saw that I was wondering if I was doing something wrong. Mine are firmly stuck to the bottom of the basket.
Many people, myself included, use a longish 10-15 seconds pre-infusion at ~2 bar to swell the puck and reduce channeling. Did you experiment with that? How did that work for you?
Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. I *always* pre-infuse, and also use the paper filter below the shower screen to help maximize the evenness of extraction. I haven't noticed any puck lift or strangely fast shots; I didn't even know that that was a problem people had!
Conversely, I've never tried a direct, slow ramp up to 9 bars, nor the quick ramp that he mentions fixed the problems caused by that slow ramp, so I don't know how either of those work. It's always a ~10-15 second pre-infusion, pretty quick ramp up to 7-8 bar, and then just feel it out from there.
I toyed with pre-infusion a bit, but I found the shots tasted a bit over extracted when I used that method. Likely was due to the coffee used being a little more soluble. I found the time the puck had to soak in the portafilter between adding water and locking in was plenty to allow for a smooth flow and expansion.
@@Sprometheus The over extraction is due to preheating, especially for darker roasts. Don’t preheat anything and preinfusion works beautifully. Try it.
Hey, that's my machine! Thanks for the review. I think you did a good job with your goal of giving a new take on things. I'm curious about what you said about the machine learning toward texture and not acidity and clarity. Isn't that opposite of what people usually say about levers?
I don't dispute your opinion but I was wondering if you could speculate why that might be.
It was funny to see Doug in your DMs. Felt like an Easter egg seeing that one. I might try hitting the puck even harder after pre-infusion. Did you pre-infuse?
Thanks again for the video. I've resubscribed since I haven't missed a video since.
Yeah, you know I didn’t know what to expect. But the same coffee pulled on the Flair was so much brighter and complex. The Robot came off more balanced and heavy. Neither are bad, but both very different in my experience. Same dose, same temp, and trying to match the same style of shot.
I didn’t do any pre-infusion on the shots I ended up liking, just a hard press and descending to 6 bar for the duration. I was totally happy with the outcome using that method.
Thanks for watching!
A couple things. Thumb tamping for the basket. Also it works better with lighter tamping, using your thumbs. And second pushing down near the hands to get the best leverage. The new tamper is very nice and removes some guessing. I grind 20g and pre infuse for 15 seconds around 2 bars and then jump to 8 bars for the 30seconds to get my 50g out. Were you filling the basket completely leave a small 5mm gap? I find when people don’t do that they have more issues.
I probably have loads of questions for you! I'm normally using 18g coffee and putting in 65g water and using a scales to get 40g out - it sounds like you're filling the basket way more than me (5mm from the top of the basket?) and stopping the shot when you hit your final amount? I'm looking at ordering a leveller from ipoktala on instagram as it seemed more repeatable for me than guessing if I have evenly spaced grinds and ending up with different parts of the puck being more densely / sparsely packed? Is there a good site where you picked up some of these tips by the way? I'm only about a month into owning the robot so loads to learn!
@@joconnell in the user manual, and then on Home Barista as well, Paul explicitly suggests filling the basket 5-8mm from the top. This provides consistent pressure, because you're compressing just water rather than water and air.
@@joconnell so currently I don’t weigh my shots anymore as the Kruve espresso glasses I bought basically have a 50g line. The cup is too big to fit under the robot with a scale. And yes I fill the basket basically full. I am pretty sure the 5mm reference is either in the manual or on the Paul Pratt YT videos where he shows how to pull a shot. I also do a WDT method in the basket and use the new self leveling tampers own weight basically to compress the puck with pushing down with my finger tips. The old tamper I used the thumb tamp method. I saw that on Prima coffee and it made sense. Also the light v hard tamp was at the request of a fellow redditor. Check out the robot subreddit. And when I tamped hard it caused the preinfusion to not be uniform and the shot tasted weird. Maybe sour. And it was slower by 5 seconds. Light tamping has gotten me much more consistent results. Preinfusion and pressure are all up to you. Play around with it. That is what makes the robot great. If I am dialing my beans and the shot is running fast at 8 bar, normally can feel it in the arms, I will back the pressure down mid shot until it flows consistent. The subreddit has lots of info. Found some stuff on home barista website and also James Hoffmann. But really watching Paul Pratt explain and show how to pull shots is where I started along with reading the manual which is a pdf on the site.
@@r_bear lovely, I didn't find a printed manual with the robot so went on the james hoffmann video and the simple steps on the back, that's what I get :D - thanks for the pointer on home barista too, will pour over all of that!
@@cameronbatko thanks again, that's tonnes of info for me to chase.
i still use my espresso forge from time to time, i enjoy the sub 190f shots also
So where is that comparison video???
For me, I knew I wanted to get a manual espresso machine but I definitely wanted to also have the option to do milk drinks. it was a toss up between the Robot + a milk steamer, and a LP Europiccola. In the end, I realized that I didn't want to deal with the additional clutter of having a separate appliance for milk steaming, so I just went with the Europiccola. I do think your comment about the Robot aiming at a specific niche in coffee can be applied to all manual 'spro machines, however!
That’s true. It takes a certain type or person to want to control over all things. I’m not that person, and my Mini is my daily. But these are fun to use from time to time.
What brand is that espresso cup in the video? I like the look, my robots coming tomorrow
hey man! good job!
when we have the comparison video? cheers!
It seems I got lucky. I got my polished aluminum Robot in 2019 for $370. I use a BPlus Apollo hand grinder with my Robot. Still, I'm very curious about your methodology. You don't pre-infuse at all? You immediately pound the puck to 9 bars? Then back down to 6 bars? This is quite different than the method I've settled upon but yours might be better. Would you please reply here with more details about how much pressure you apply, when, and for how long? I would like to try your method for myself. When preparing the puck I let the weight of the tamper push down on the grinds. This way I know that the pressure is fairly consistent. The art of making espresso is often surrounded by myth. There is no scientific evidence that, when preparing the puck, downward pressure on the grinds creates a better shot but can, in fact, cause channeling. Life is about learning and I'm excited to try your method. Thank you.
I doubt his method is better, he is still learning what works and what doesn’t. Preinfusion is a critical step, every serious machine is designed to mimic low pressure preinfusion. He explained in the comments that he decided to skip preinfusion because he was getting too much over-extraction. What he didn’t realize is that over-extraction was a result of pre-heating of all components. Had he not done pre-heating, pre-infusion would work beautifully. He just needs a bit more experimentation, that’s it.
@@VoidedTea Pre-infusion tor 10 - 20 seconds. Then ratcheting up pressure to 9 bars for 5 - 10 seconds. Then lowering pressure slowly for the rest of the shot. 35 - 45 seconds total. This mimics a spring lever and is the profile (I think) most Robot users have adopted.
@@davidhunternyc1 Yes, this is pretty much what I do as well, but on the shorter side - 10 and 25 seconds accordingly. I found that extracting longer than 25 seconds leads to a bigger temperature drop at the end leading to extracting too much sour flavours. Staying under 30 seconds solves this problem.
@@VoidedTea Yes, I wanted to keep everything general in terms of procedure, hence the varied timing. I experimented too with short shot times to good effect.
@@davidhunternyc1 @voidedTea thanks for those recipes - some of the approaches here have thrown me off and gotten worse results. Sprometheus' approach of going right to 9 bars seemed to explode the puck for me and got a load of channeling
I always found it looked like a robot was pooping into my cup. Flair Pro i still think has this category.
Haha I honestly didn’t even see that until a few people brought it up on here, and now it cannot be unseen.
Agree with almost everything you said except the design! I love the way it looks. Appreciate the info regarding the watery shots. Have had that happen on my attempts to preinfuse and now I know why. Ironically the only reason I really keep mine is because one day I’ll have an espresso bar at home and I think it’ll look cool on the shelf :D
Though I have a stainless version without any paint coating, and I think it’s the best looking of the bunch.... can’t stand the tamper - hurts whatever part of your hand you try to tamp with.
@@stephengoldberg7609 It's actually polished aluminum, not stainless. If the tamper hurts your hand you're pressing way too hard.
@@stephengoldberg7609 You can replace it with a 57.5mm tamper with a nicer handle.
Have you tried the new Odyssey espresso Argos?
It came out recently and seems to be reasonably priced for an electric lever machine
Thank you for the review. I have a Robot as a backup machine, when I don't have the time to use my commercial lever. It produces nice espresso, but somewhat muddy/messy in terms of the taste and you can't compare the complexity of the shots. I haven't had any issue with puck lift though using the very same or even coarser grind as my real machine. But I am going to try a harsh press without PI, it is interesting.
What commercial lever do you have?
@@anishaaya3978 Londinium LR
Nice video! Can you please also throw in the ROK when you compare?
I love doing things the hard way. I prefer archery hunting to using rifles. I prefer analog sound equipment to digital. I'd rather go fly fishing than use bait.
That being said, I haven't been drawn to manual espresso machines (at least not yet). I'm still relatively early in my espresso journey, and I find it difficult enough to be consistent without introducing additional variables. Mad respect to any that uses one of these on the daily.
Haha well the manual machine is the hard way. You need a Hive to hand roast, a hand grinder, and a hand machine to be fully in charge of all the factors.
It does indeed add a ton of variables, even more so than a traditional machine. So I’d say save it for a bit further down the road when you want to really experiment and get outside the box.
@@Sprometheus Yeah, it would be really cool to eventually get to the point where I could hand roast, hand grind, and manually extract and get a great shot. That's 100% doing it the hard way, and it's an exciting challenge, but one I'm definitely not up for yet!
@@Sprometheus Haha, I have a Flair and a Feldgrind, but not the Hive roaster. I also have a small Solo backpacking wood stove. Just imagine roasting over a fire lol.
hi! thank you for your work. i have a question: Can you recommend a tamper for this type of basket? and suggest other accessories to improve my experience with the shots. thanks 😃
there's a leveling tamper specifically for this basket. can google cafelat robot tamper, you'll see it.
With your comment about the ergonomics I could not help but notice that the accompanying video showed you with your hands roughly in the middle of the arms. This technique is counter productive as you are losing half your leverage! Yes the robot's hands can be uncomfortable to press, I completely agree, but moving your hands that far up the arms is just not on. Adding the mittens would be the best bet for comfort, but I myself (a short, older and not nearly as strong as she used to be woman) have no problem with the general ergonomics if I keep my hands on or very close to the robot's hands.
What grinder do you use to get the proper espresso shot with crema - and which espresso setting do you use?
I was looking for a lever michigan for a while and now I found it
You definitely won’t be disappointed
Flair pro2 is awesome too :)
Thanks for the advice I'm looking forward to the flair and robot comparison
Have you tried the ROK manual machine. I love the aesthetics and I use it quite often.
I have, I wasn’t a big fan. There is a video I did with awhile back. It just struggled to keep up with the flair in my opinion.
@@Sprometheus tbh I got it because it looks great and goes well with the Alessi Juicy Salif. I don't have the flair but am considering it. I love my 9Barista atm.
Great video - very enjoyable!!
Good video. I've got a flair and am very happy with it, but I'd be very curious about any more tips to getting the best extraction on it, like you gave here. I get good shots, but often more acidic than I'd want and am still trying to figure out the ultimate process. Really looking forward to the head-to-head.
I use Cafelat, but had the same issue with acidity at first. The problem was that I tried to grind too fine, which resulted in longer extraction time (around 60 seconds). Eventually I figured out that longer extraction time means that I am extracting too much at lower temperatures by the end of the pull leading to too much acidity. I increased my grind setting to make sure that extraction time doesn’t exceed 30 seconds for the required volume and haven’t had acidity problem ever since. If your extraction time is also too long, worth a try to increase the grind size. Disclaimer - I am using medium and medium dark roasts, if you prefer lighter roasts, acidity might be part of the normal flavour profile.
Isaac Asimov would have loved Paul Pratt's "Robot." Also, a biochemist, so appreciating that aspect as well.
I miss Doug from Flair Facebook group. 🙂
Hey man, appreciate the great review. Based on that I have gotten a Barista as well. What kind of coffe/water ratio do you use?
I have a Flair and so far so good - after a few months with it, I've finally reached a point that I'm getting consistent shots time and time again (put in mind i'm not using an "espresso" grinder - just a Baratza Encore at a 4 to 6 setting.) Although I do like the design of the "portafilter / grouphead" It can be very annoying to clean out, especially if I want, or need, to pull a second shot (something I don't really do - may consider purchasing a additional one or more for that purpose.) Although I don't have experience with the Cafelat Robot - seems that it's "portafilter" is at least, easier to clean than the Flair in order to pull additional shots. Speaking as an Industrial Designer myself - the design is definitely out of this world (bad joke, I'm sorry) - but from a user experience perspective, the levers could be better - not sure if it hurt when pulling (pressing) the shot? That's why I like the Flair (and likely would the Rok as well,) - the arm(s) are more ergonomic - ultimately putting less strain on the arms and wrists. At least in the case of the Flair, if all the variables are correct - mostly with the grind setting, It is possible to push the lever down with just a finger (but i've never tried that.)
The cleaning practically takes 3 seconds. The puck comes out by itself and there is usually a few grounds left at the bottom. A quick 1 sec rinse is all that’s needed. I always pull two shots for me and my wife, and can usually do it all in 5 min. There is no pre-heating either because we use medium-dark roasts.
Where's that comparison between the robot and the Flair, is it out yet? (:
58’s out. Theyve got their similarities and differences. I think it just comes down to preference.
Yes, it is.
Nice video fun and informative, thank you
You’re welcome, thanks for watching!
Everyone mentions that it makes syrupy shots compared to flair 58, my question is can the flair 58 also make syrupy shots if you wanted it to on purpose? And for someone who prefers lower acidity espresso and drinks it mostly black which machine would be best to use?
The Robot rewards a bit of time investment to dial in the technique. It delivers consistently great tasting shots with good body.
Is it worth the money or is it better to go with semi-automatic
What grind setting were you using in the end? With medium roasts I've been testing between 14 and 18 on the niche
That's a really interesting tip about "puck lift", I'm going to try going heavy at the start today and see how things go. I found the same thing as yourself in terms of fast shots and needing to grind stupidly fine to get 8 - 10 bars of pressure but it seems like that water getting under would explain this? I was following james hoffmann's approach of putting in roughly the amount of water that I want out plus the absorption amount for the grounds so 18g coffee and about 65g water to hit 40g on a scales, did you put in far more water into the basket? I'd imagine that more water would give you the possibility of more pressure for longer?
Cheers!
I always aimed for about 50-60g of water in, accounting for absorption and all that. But I wasn’t often weighing my shots on the Robot and just kind of going with the feedback from the levers and the shot color. But I think there is a benefit of having a little extra water in there for not only pressure, but also temp stability.
@@Sprometheus Many I know put the water level to within 1cm of the top and use a scale during the shot. This reduces air compression which absorbs some of the initial pressure on the levers
And this is simply the recommendation by the designer.
@@danbodoh Same on the Flair; you fill water to the piston so there’s no air under it to press. And even more important because the BPF is not locked to the brew chamber.
Really helpful tips here for Cafelat Robot owners! I tried preheating with my Robot today the way you did, and my portafilter was full of little steam droplets. Is that to be expected with preheating or should I wipe those away?
Also what temperature water do you use? I've been using 208°F but haven't experimented much with that. Thanks!
Be careful, not all his findings are accurate. For example, preheating for darker roasts will lead to over extraction and a lot of bitterness and burnt notes in your espresso. So, don’t preheat at all if you use traditional espresso roasts. Preheating is only necessary for lighter and some medium roasts. He also does not preinfuse, which is another mistake. I don’t blame him, we all went through the same trial and error process, he is just not an experienced Robot user. For a short time that he spent with the Robot he did a lot of things right, but missed a couple of point which I am trying to correct here.
I would definitely wipe out any moisture inside the basket, you don’t want the coffee to contact water before you begin extracting because it could cause channeling or other issues.
Temp wise I go straight off boil into the portafilter with lighter roasts, 200-202 with medium to dark roasts
@@VoidedTea Starting out with a “be careful” is a little intense, like I’m dangerously misleading people.
Maybe you’ve been using the robot for a long time, and I welcome your opinions, and experience, but I ask that you please don’t frame my personal experience or brewing preferences as “mistakes” because they don’t match yours. The beauty of this and other lever machines is they allow you to explore espresso outside of the parameters that a pump machine locks you into.
@@Sprometheus I think you are slightly overreacting to what I said. And in my defence, you do give misleading advice, like preheating is a must (no, it is not), and it is better to skip preinfusion (again no, it is not). You didn’t specify in the video that you are using “personal brewing preferences” that are different from user manual recommendation and, as you can see in the comments, many people do take your advice almost as directives, which is a mistake. So my choice of words was quite appropriate if you think that I am warning people to be careful about the way they absorb your information, not about information itself.
@@VoidedTea no one believes that my reviews are the end all, be all of coffee advice. No one believes that there is only one way to get a good shot on this machine, or any machine. I shouldn’t have to explicitly say that this is my opinion or personal experience on my channel on a review I made. Every reviewer has their own spin and take on what they do and how they do it. As a fellow coffee lover all I’m asking for is a little mutual respect, and maybe less of a “you did this wrong” and more of a “I find that this works best for me and darker roasts”. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for.
for the longest time i thought a crack in the puck was caused by the screen filter. turns out it was my distribution technique.
and what is your technique now?
@@VladGiurgiu7 well, it's wdt. but i was doing tapping and wdt poorly before. i now work through the height of the grounds slowly and then one bang on the table to settle the grounds at the end.
@@mescellaneous Thanks :)
This thing is pretty cool and all but for that price you can get something like a la pavoni where you don't really have to preheat anything separately, boil water separately and you get an integrated steam wand. So I don't really see how this thing can compete. It's a nice novelty for sure but just not a great daily Driver IMO.
I love the looks and all.. But I feel the ROK competes with it at half the price. This is unique of course but not sure if it's worth paying double for. Maybe at 300 it would be great.
A manual machine which figures out heat dissipation soon could blow everyone out of the water.
I hope the comparison between flair and robot is coming soon :)?!?
I am a Flair owner, and when I was doing my research I was very conflicted between the Cafelat Robot and the Flair. It’s funny that you mention not being a fan of the aesthetics of the Robot because that was ultimately the deciding factor for me to choose the Flair
Paul suggests using 6 to 7 bars. At 7 instead of 9, I'm pulling much nicer shots.
I forget this a lot. Apparently the 9 bar quote is in the group head but when the water hits the coffee puck it's far lower so 7 might be much closer to what a powered espresso machine might be pulling at!
Have you checked out the Aram Espresso Maker? It‘s handmade in Brazil and makes awesome espresso.
I’ve seen it, but haven’t had the chance to try it. Would love to though. Looks very cool
What is the name of the app you are using?
It’s called Optimal Coffee Extraction
Thanks for your take. Can you comment on whether or not it can stay hot enough for light roast given a preheat routine? For instance is the final temperature in cup comparable to what you'd experience with a light roast on your Linea? I'm wondering if I'd be able to pair it with a flat SSP unimodal burrs Lagom P64
For light roasts I find it works well to put the coffee in, fill the basket with boiling water, let it sit for a second, dump the water out, replace water with more water off the boil and pull the shot.
@@cameronbatko Ah I get you. Warm the coffee itself too. Do you find yourself still desiring more temperature after that or does that suffice? Do you find shots to be on the sour side?
@@iwouldpayattention I have not tasted a sour shot yet. I am also not sure what a sour shot tastes like either. I image it would be off putting. I have not had any off putting shots. And when it is in the espresso cup afterwards it will burn your mouth if I don’t let it sit for a minute.
Edit: I did get a sour shot once. It was when I was testing light v hard tamping. The hard tamp slowed my shot time by 5 sec and caused uneven distribution during the preinfusion and made the end result taste off. Which may have been sour
@@cameronbatko Haha as good a litmus test as any. Cheers
@@cameronbatko I see. Yes it may have been. Sourness is typically indicative of under extraction so maybe water didn't visit parts of puck enough. Do you think holding a pre-infusion for up to 30secs as Sprometheus did would result in too much heat loss? For instance do your longer pre-infusions taste more acidic?
Nice review. I’ve had one for a year and I LOVE it. I did buy the new tamper and then robot mittens (mainly because I like the look). I love the process and LOVE how well this makes espresso. I don’t think you can beat the quality of espresso for the machine. (I do own the barista version because I think its important to have)
For people who doesn't have electricity to run espresso machines, the manual espresso maker is the best option.
Preheat isn't always necessary, and when it is it can be cheated by simply filling, dumping and refilling the PF. Or just hold it at a slight angle over the sink and over fill. Also, did someone with a $5k machine really have anything to say about the price of a robot? :)
Make a video compare flair, rok presso and robot
Flair vs Robot is coming soon. I’ve already compared the Rok to the Flair.
Props to you for including the patreon supporters at the end, I get outta breath just hearing you say them all.
Gotta do it! They help me tremendously
would love to see a pavoni review from you!
Someday hopefully!
@@Sprometheus thatd be dope! :)
Would you use it daily?
I would if I didn’t have a mechanical pump machine.
@@Sprometheus What mechancial pump machine do you have?
The price is approaching the Gaggia Classic Pro and it steams milk for a latte
It’s definitely pushing the upper limits. But these machines are a niche of their own. Those who want a manual machine only want a manual machine.
some people only drink espresso (including my self)
Interestingly, I was on the market for Gaggia Classic Pro but picked the Robot because it is a more reliable option for the price. Gaggia is a relatively cheap option for a reason among prosumer machines. People complain about temperature control. There is no pressure profiling either. Robot gives both those options for the same price. With Robot, there is no preheat, no maintenance, no water concerns, descaling, etc. For me, it is an ideal espresso maker. And I don’t use milk.
Thanks for sharing the brewing technique! Will try that.
Of course! Let me know how it goes!
Easier to pre-heat all parts of the Flair....can't easily get at the Robot piston to pre-heat it. Flair for me, since easy to clean, less expensive and it has a more comfy handle.
I don't know why the don't put a heating element in the chamber. It seams like an easy thing to implement and control.
...because it's totally manual? there's nothing to plug in anywhere.
@@r_bear ya I get that. I don't think it would take away from the experience of a manual machine. Or incorporate a "preheating chamber" where you can pour hot water in, have an easy way to remove it, without interfering with the brewing chamber. Less mess and fuss. Also mainly speaking in hypotheticals.
I think 'puck lift' might be mis-describing the issue a little, and confusing people. I've had the same issues Sprometheus had, and also found minimal pre-infusion and higher pressure at the start of the espresso extraction to help alot. Personally, I think 'puck-lift' is simply the coffee grounds suspended in the water a little bit- caused by low pressure and slow pre-infusion.
A high-ish initial pressure compresses the (mostly) dry puck, creating the required resistance to water flow to generate an adequately high extraction pressure. Slow, low-pressure pre-infusion allows the water to penetrate the puck fully and start to give the individual coffee grinds some buoyancy/suspension. High pressure after this occurs simply pushes the water AROUND the coffee particles, creating a watery/inconsistent result.
I think that a fully, slowly preinfused puck my not compress reliably/consistently, like a puck that's infused quicker and/or at a somewhat higher pressure...
While I like the aesthetics, this reassured my choice of the Flair due to cost/value and I don't want floppy bits on a $400 machine.
I agree that cost wise Flair is a better option. I picked the Robot for its easy operation comparing to Flair, particularly there is no need to preheat anything, except for light roasts, and there is practically nothing to clean at the end. I was watching many videos about Flair and came to a conclusion that it cannot work without preheating. That was was a major turning point for me toward a more expensive option.
@@VoidedTea That is a fair point, it is pretty much necessary to preheat the Flair to get a sweet shot. I am not judging those who bought the Robot, it is a beautiful piece of kit, just too expensive for me.
@@VoidedTea Once you get used to the workflow it’s pretty easy actually. I can still make a shot in about 5 min, and I use the preheat time to grind with my Kinu
So………2 years later………where’s that comparison video?
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Would love a review of the 9barista!
Me too! It’s on the list
I prefer the Flair because of the smaller pack down size, which both the Rok and this lacks. Also the way you use a Flair is somewhat like the La Pavoni or other lever machine, where as the side down squeeze is a bit unique. More like one of those workout machine for bigger tits or something.
I have the CafeLat Robot. Heating of the portofilter is trivial. I do my bean grinding then let it sit to loose static electricity. During that time I place the portofilter in microwave for 60 sec. Yes, in the microwave! Contrary to urban myth, you can put metal in a microwave, just make sure it does not touch the sides of the oven (of course confirm with your own unit). In this case you will find the inner filter will get very hot. And you can tune the temperature by varying the microwave intensity/time. Another tip is to purchase a very thin o-ring that will fit around the filter basket and insulate it from the heavy metal portofilter handle. Also, ignore this authors worries about heating the piston. It is not an issue as it is separated from the heated water by an air gap.
Don’t take it the wrong way! We see you more and more, and less and less the machine
Small world. I was apart of a group that ended up banning G***t L****** because of how he was allegedly harassing people and putting them down regarding their espresso techniques. 🙄
I assume you’re talking about the Flair group. Personally, he’s been nothing but helpful and kind to me. But that’s not a discussion for here.
@@Sprometheus, agreed. Just stay away from that temper. Love the videos 🙏
The same experience happened to me...went so far as to send me a Facebook message 🙄
damn thats kind of him
Kind people are my kind of people
Who is "Adz"? thats my name.
A kind person who donates to my Patreon. That’s all I know about them, but they comment on here time to time.
Please don't make the comparison yet. Buy the ROK, compare the three. I like the ROK's look muuuuuch more and I'd like to buy one, but I've never played with espresso and don't want to buy the worse option
He's already reviewed Rok and felt it was inferior to the flair, so...